Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 May 1935

Vol. 56 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 63—Posts and Telegraphs.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Boland)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,300,514 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Puist agus Telegrafa (45 agus 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 agus 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; na hAchtanna Telegrafa, 1863 go 1928, etc.); agus Seirbhísí áirithe eile atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin.

That a sum not exceeding £1,300,514 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928, etc.); and of certain other Services administered by that Office.

The total Post Office expenditure for the year 1935/36 is estimated at £1,984,514, being a net decrease, including bonus, of £16,703 on the Estimate for last year. The decrease includes a reduction of over £7,000 which has been effected under sub-head P in respect of certain sums withheld by the British Government, and further substantial decreases amounting to about £27,000 are shown under other various sub-heads. Against these economies must be set increased payments of £1,150 to foreign Administrations for the conveyance of Mails by Air; £3,140 for purchase of sites; £5,000 for maintenance of Cross-Channel cables; £3,498 Appropriation-in-Aid sub-head, and miscellaneous items amounting to £5,000 odd.

The true financial position of the Department can be ascertained only from the Commercial Accounts which are prepared annually, and the latest such accounts available (which are subject to audit) are those for 1933/ 1934. They show as follows:—

Postal Services—Income, £1,468,738; Expenditure, £1,371,275; Surplus, £97,463.

Telegraph Services—Income, £176,107; Expenditure, 281,872; Deficit, £105,765.

Telephone Services—Income, £437,939; Expenditure, £393,930; Surplus, £44,009.

It will, therefore, be seen that on the Postal and Telephone Services there was a gross surplus of £141,472 against a deficit of £105,765 in the Telegraphs, leaving a profit on the combined services of £35,707, as compared with £17,357 in the previous year.

The Commercial Accounts of the Department for the year ending 31st March, 1935, will not be available for some months, but, so far as can be judged from the information at present to hand, the final returns will show that the Department has improved its financial position. Postal and Telephone revenue has shown an appreciable expansion, but Telegraph revenue has continued to shrink.

The Government issued a special stamp to commemorate the Golden Jubilee of the Gaelic Athletic Association. The stamp, which was issued on the 27th July, 1934, and remained on sale till the close of the Jubilee year, was of the 2d. denomination and while it was on sale the ordinary stamp of that value was withdrawn. The design—that of a hurler in play— was the work of Mr. R.J. King, of Dublin, and the stamp was printed and produced by the Stamping Branch of the Revenue Commissioners.

An inland sample post service was introduced in November last and is being availed of to a material extent. The service admits of the despatch of samples by commercial firms within the Saorstát to addressees within the Saorstát at a rate substantially lower than the letter rate and is thus helpful to industry.

The inland cash-on-delivery service stands at approximately the same level as last year. The number of parcels posted in 1934 was 16,660, on which trade charges (that is, the value of the contents of parcels) amounting to £16,748 were collected. The use made of the foreign cash-on-delivery service is inconsiderable.

The policy of substituting motor for horse road transport, with the object of accelerating delivery and despatch services, continues and at present about 77 per cent. of the road services throughout the Saorstát are performed by motor. Of these motor services approximately one-fourth is worked by Departmental staff, the remainder by outside contractors. The Department takes every opportunity, consistent with economy, to increase its own motor fleet and the availability of officials cars has proved to be particularly advantageous at times when normal transport services are for any reason interrupted, as for example, during the recent labour trouble on the Great Southern Railways system. Notwithstanding the suspension of train services which then occurred, the Department was able to maintain its mail services practically unimpaired. The ports of Cobh and Galway continue to be used to the utmost possible extent for the exchange of foreign mails. During 1934 over 19,000 sacks of mails were despatched and over 26,000 received through these ports.

Correspondence for conveyance by air services in other countries is steadily increasing. Last year the number of items posted here was 68,900, an increase of 11,500 over the figures for the previous year. As regards the adverse criticism that is sometimes heard regarding our air mail fees, I should like to explain that the Department only charges what it has to pay away to other administrations. It makes no profit on air mail items.

The express delivery services are being increasingly supported, particularly the telephonic express service.

Telegraphs here, as in all countries, are still losing to the telephone which is increasing in public favour. The main development in our telephone service has been in Dublin and vicinity. Notwithstanding special canvassing in the provinces the results have been disappointing. The total number of subscribers' telephones and extensions is now 34,519, an increase of 1,221 over the previous year. The number of call offices and kiosks is 1,380, an increase of 27. Several additional "trunk" circuits have been provided with the object of improving service and others are in hand. The "personal" trunk call facility appears to be much appreciated by telephone users. The number of such calls during the last financial year, 38,000, showed an increase of 13,000 over the previous year. The Rathmines and Terenure exchanges will be converted from manual working to automatic during the current year.

The Post Office factory is mainly engaged on repair work, but it also undertakes the manufacture of "Key" etc. articles used in the Government service which would otherwise have to be procured from sources outside An Saorstát, or could not be obtained at an economic price. Such articles as web equipment, buttons, badges, fencing material, leather goods, zinc rods (telegraph), telephone switchboards and other telephone apparatus are now produced in the factory. Unless in very exceptional circumstances the factory does not undertake work that could equally well be done by Saorstát manufacturers, and it is estimated that but for the existence of the factory at least 75 per cent. of the work done here would have to be imported. In addition the factory carries on the maintenance and repair of Post Office mechanical transport which comprises 91 vans and trucks and 75 motor cycles and combinations. The van and cycle combination bodies built by Saorstat manufacturers are proving satisfactory in service, and are being produced at a reasonable price. About 100 hands are employed in the factory and the wage bill totals over £11,000 per annum.

A comprehensive programme is being undertaken and the principal work will be that of erecting the new central sorting office in Baile Atha Cliath. Unforeseen circumstances delayed the work but the site is being prepared on one section and the scheme will be pushed forward as rapidly as possible. In Rathmines, the new building to house a telephone exchange and district postmen's offices was opened for postal business on February 18 last. Provision for an automatic telephone installation is included in the current Estimates. In Terenure, the new building for a district telephone exchange has been completed and the necessary telephone plant will be installed as early as possible.

The surrender to the Dublin Corporation of Aldborough House and the surrounding ground is under consideration. The building of a new post office at Athlone will be commenced during the coming financial year. The new Cashel office is almost finished and will, it is hoped, be ready for business in May next. New premises for letter and parcel sorting offices, postmen's office and Customs office are in course of construction in Cork. At several other offices steps are being taken to improve the existing accommodation.

Dr. O'Higgins

I have very few remarks to make with regard to this Vote. I happened to be looking at the Estimates this evening, and a copy of the Estimates for 1932 was alongside those for 1935-36. The first thing that struck me in the eye was that, although the cost of Government Services between those years has gone up approximately by £7,000,000 the cost of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has fallen by £130,000 during that period. It appears to me that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is the Cinderella of Government Services. What I have to say may be helpful to the Minister in the battle that always goes on behind the scenes. It appears to me that a service of vital use to the people in their homes, in their domestic life, and in their association with friends away from home, is being unnecessarily starved, while other Services are getting bloated to bursting point. I do not congratulate either the Minister or the Department on such economy, particularly in relation to the expenditure elsewhere. We had an economy of £130,000 over that period, but telegraph users are still paying 1/6 to send a few words, while across a strip of water we have telegraphic charges reduced to 6d. We are still paying the war rate of a 2d. post. I suggest, if there was a surplus of £130,000, that it should have been devoted definitely to the encouragement of users of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, rather than passing back to the general taxpayer to be greedily grabbed by some other Government Department as happened one hundredfold. I believe that all sections of this House should support the Minister in getting more for his Department. I have no complaint to make with regard to the administration. I have no complaint with regard to the efficiency of the officers and servants in that Department, inside or outside the walls, but I do think as far as the money which is available is concerned—the very limited money that is left to the Minister when the others grab all that is going—the provinces are being to a very great extent impoverished and deprived of rightful privileges in order to provide facilities for the people in Dublin. I quite recognise that the capital of every country deserves first consideration. You have —and I congratulate the Minister and his officers on this—immense strides being made in catering for the public in the City of Dublin, but in rural Ireland the telephone service is primitive, to the knowledge of everybody. I am a very frequent telephone user in the city and a very frequent telephone user in the country. This has been my experience, and it is known to the Minister's representative, that from a place just 30 miles from the City of Dublin on four occasions out of five I have established contact with the City of Dublin more rapidly by getting into my car and driving to the city than by trying to get a connection by telephone. I have pointed out the hour at which I put through a call and the hour at which I got a connection. I have done that repeatedly, and I believe it is on record. On all those occasions the time taken was more than an hour, and I am not breaking any law by covering 30 miles an hour in a motor car.

Again I would call the Minister's attention to this aspect of the matter. In big towns in the country, important towns to the people living in them, there is the antiquated idea of cutting off the telephone service at 7 o'clock or 8 o'clock in the evening. That is not fair to the people. The people in the country I believe pay far more heavily for their telephones than the people in the city. If they live a stone's throw from the exchange there is an extra cost for installation added to the rent. They pay more and get far less facilities. Once a telephone is installed in a house there is a tendency to rely more and more on that telephone, particularly in emergencies. Real emergencies arise more often by night than by day. Whether or not it is a fact that a person who is ill is actually worse during the night time, sick people believe they are worse during the night time. Darkness has its fear and terrors, and the relatives of a sick person too believe that the person is worse in the still hours of the night. That is the very time that telephone communication is cut off. Take again criminal acts. The criminal works more frequently by night, and by night you have the country telephone user cut off from any connection with help. I think the time has long gone by when any area catered for by the telephone service should be deprived of that service for as much as one minute in the 24 hours. It may mean the employment of an extra little girl or an extra man. Why not? There are plenty of people anxious for the job. There is plenty of material available, and I believe there is nobody on any side of this House going to kick against the cost. You will benefit the person who gets the job; you will benefit the subscribers in that area who are paying heavily for the telephone, and you will remove an element of nervousness from the household. Company gives courage, and when you are telephonically linked up with other people you get courage from the knowledge of that linking up.

I would urge very strongly on the Minister that he ought to think occasionally of the country telephone user. Do not slow down the work in the city, but expedite and increase the work in the country. I think the ordinary normal taxpayer would prefer, rather than an economy in the city, to see more work and more facilities in the country. I should like the Minister to understand that when I am raising those matters I am raising them in the belief that it will help himself, because I know there is no chief of any Department who likes to see his Service go with a limp in any part of the country, and undoubtedly the telephone service in rural Ireland is a thing to be ashamed of. There is intermittent service; there is extreme delay in putting through calls; there is a primitive system of the job of exchange manager in a country post office, coupled with a busy job as postmistress or perhaps part-time shopkeeper. I understand that while one person in a district is holding a telephone conversation everybody else is cut off.

There is at all events cause for complaint in the cutting off the service. There is cause for complaint in the delay in getting connection with any outside area. There is cause for complaint, above all, in the excessive charges for telephone installation, particularly at any distance from the exchange. I had experience of the position in the country myself. The local telephone exchange was actually on the front field of the place in which I had a house. I had been accustomed to getting telephones installed here in the City of Dublin, and automatically I applied for one there, but the cost of installation in that particular area was absolutely prohibitive. It could not be faced. I do not know what is the use of having advertisements on letters urging people to use the telephone if the cost of installation is definitely prohibitive. The cost of installation in the country is beyond the means of any normal person. If the State wants to extend a service such as that it should be more reasonable with the public in order to get the service used.

There is one other point with regard to rural telephones which I should like mildly to protest against. You have a system in this country where, if a telephone is applied for by the community in any particular area, the people are asked to guarantee so much. If there is a reasonable system of investigation so as to base an estimate on the use in that particular area, a great State service should not put itself in the position of a person backing a horse each way, to win and to lose, but yet you have that position in the case of a service which we are urged to use more frequently. Nevertheless, when it comes to installing it in order to cater for a rural community the community is asked to guarantee so much. What happens then? The board of health in the area, a board subsidised by the rates, is asked to guarantee the taxes against loss.

There is something acutely wrong when the rates are guaranteeing the taxes. One would imagine that the rates came down with the last shower of rain and that the taxes came out of the pockets of the people when we have this artificial red-tape dividing one thing from another. Surely, if a service is provided out of taxes, maintained out of public funds, and answered for by a Minister of this House, he should not ask the local rates to step in and stand the loss, if there is a loss. Take the case of his postmen. A line is not paying. Something is done; either the services along that line are curtailed or an improvement is made in some respect but the rates are not asked to guarantee against the loss on that line. Why that rule should apply to the telephone, I do not know. Ever since the Minister ornamented the opposite bench and ever since I decorated this bench, I have, year after year, called attention to a couple of areas in the County of Laoighis where police and public, priests, doctors and Deputies —that is a mixture that should appeal to the Minister—have joined in looking for telephone facilities. I have pointed out that telephone facilities existed in that area. I am speaking of the Wolfhill area of Laoighis. They had a telephone as long as there was a railway line there. When the railway line went, the telephone went. The police, the public and public representatives—all have asked for a telephone in that area and, so far, their request has fallen on deaf ears. Yet, we have economies. We have a drastic reduction in the cost. Instead of that reduction in cost, would it not be well to facilitate a mountain area like that? Would it not be well to give them back the facilities which they enjoyed heretofore? I merely repeat the request in the hope that as one year follows another, by keeping after a thing, it will be granted some time.

There are one or two other points which I desire to raise. I am doubtful as to how far the Minister is responsible and I do not like barking up the wrong tree. During the last six months, I have received from strictly political quarters, rather than from the general public, hundreds and hundreds of complaints with regard to delayed delivery and non-delivery of letters. In every case where such a complaint was made, the letter was sent from or addressed to somebody prominent in political life. Secret service agents have to be facilitated by the postal Department in every country in the world. If that is what is going on at the moment, it is all in the game, and I cannot complain. But I ask that the people doing that work do it with greater expedition. It should rarely happen that general delay occur in the delivery of letters, and it should never happen that there be non-delivery of letters. The suggestion was made to me—I do not believe it—that it was the postmen who were being got at. I do not believe that any postman would do the like of that. A complaint has, I think, reached the Minister within the last week or two in a case in which a man in the County Cork, driven to desperation by non-delivery of his letters to political friends, went to the extreme of registering a letter to another town in the county. Within six days of the dispatch of that letter it had not arrived at its destination. I do not know if that complaint has yet come under the Minister's notice. It occurred within the last three weeks. I ask the Minister to pay particular attention to this complaint of mine. If I am raising it at the wrong time or against the wrong Department, I am sorry, but it is a complaint that has got to be ventilated and it is a complaint around which investigations have got to be made. Moreover, it is a type of complaint that has become general of late. I may say that I have had experience of it myself. I believe that there is no decrease in the efficiency of the postal service. I do not know of any curtailment in recent months. I do not know of letters from and to myself that are taking an excessively long time to cover their journey during the last three months. I did not pay a lot of attention to that kind of thing. I thought that there might be some accident in each of these cases. Within the past two weeks I have had one letter from Laoighis and one from Offaly asking me would I reply to a certain letter of the previous week. I happened to have replied to these letters through an office. The office book coincided absolutely with my recollection. Both those letters were answered. There is something wrong if one letter in half a million is not delivered in any country in normal times. There is something very seriously wrong if one letter in a thousand is not delivered. As the percentage goes higher, the occasion for public anxiety becomes greater. If this delay is due to the operation of forces over which the Minister has no control; then I ask the Minister to call the attention of the proper authority to it and have the present state of affairs attended to.

Mr. Minch

One refreshing aspect of this Vote is the frankness with which the Minister answers criticisms and gives explanations. I am quite certain that he will maintain this year the openness and frankness with which he treated the House when this Estimate was discussed last year. A lot of what Deputy O'Higgins dealt with in speaking this evening was a matter that I had intended to refer to but, in saying what he did, he has saved that much time for me and therefore for the House. I am not sure Sir, whether we can raise the question of wireless broadcasting on this Vote.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is another Vote.

Mr. G. Boland

That will come later on.

Mr. Minch

Very good. Deputy O'Higgins, however, in referring to the telephone service, referred only to the private individual, so far as I understood him. He did not refer to trade and commerce in the rural areas. Before mentioning some of the disabilities in that respect, I should like to back up the appeal that was made, directly or indirectly, to the Minister for Finance, that the postal services should be deserving of every financial help that can be given to them by the Department of Finance, and that whatever may be necessary to help the revival of trade and business in the home market, the worst day's work that could be done for it would be the cutting down of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs or making it a mean Department, or forcing and coercing them into a place where they are not getting adequate funds for the development and encouragement of the postal service in all its aspects. I hope that the House will voice that appeal and so help the Minister to make this Department as efficient as it possibly can be made, and I am quite certain that he is putting up a good fight behind the scenes for his Department. We have had subsidies flung here and moneys plastered there, but if there is one place above all in which we want to see justice done, it is the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Now, what about the telephones in the country districts. Deputy O'Higgins referred to the difficulty in getting trunk calls through—the difficulty at night time of getting in touch with doctors in case of illness. He forgot, however, to mention that on Sundays you are almost marooned in the country districts. It must be remembered that there are businesses which are carried on all the week around, certain seasonal businesses. It would be selfish on my part to refer to the particular business in which I am engaged, because it would appear that I was only voicing the grievances of our firm and not of the public as a whole, but I suggest that it is monstrous that in the year 1935, probably to avoid employing some extra operators, we cannot do any business or have any communication anywhere on a Sunday except at a ridiculous hour in the morning, and even then the service is very local. The position is that at night time, or even in the late evening time, in the country, you may be lucky to get the ordinary Civic Guard to do a message for you if you want a telephone call put through. I think the time has come for that to stop.

The next point I want to mention is the long time that it takes to get a trunk call through. I have spent, in company with others, from 40 to 50 minutes trying to get a trunk call through to Dublin. If that is the effect in the two instances mentioned, namely, the case of Deputy O'Higgins, speaking, I presume, from the Meath side, and I, speaking on behalf of the public in the South of Kildare, there must be something wrong to bring about a state of affairs in which the telephone is so antiquated or the wiring system so inadequate that we cannot get into communication with any appreciable efficiency at all. I hold that if a motor car could be faster than a trunk call, then the sooner the whole thing is abolished the better. I am certain, however, that the Minister will take a particular interest in that and realise that we are now living in 1935 and not in pre-war days.

There is another point to which I should like to refer. It is the last thing I will refer to because I know that many other Deputies want to speak. I do not know if I am in order in referring to this matter, but, if I am not in order, I shall stop at once, in respect to you, Sir. What I have in mind is the question of examinations for the Post Office itself.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Civil Service Commissioners.

Mr. Minch

Very good, Sir. I shall not proceed if that is the case.

Professor O'Sullivan

Before leaving that matter, I should like to ask the Minister whether or not the Civil Service Commissioners act on advice from the Post Office in connection with examinations for the Post Office.

Mr. G. Boland

They act entirely on their own.

Professor O'Sullivan

I did not ask whether the final decision was with the Civil Service Commissioners, but whether they consulted the Post Office as to the terms of an examination; whether the Post Office, like other Departments, gives them advice as to the type of examination to be held, the subjects, and so on.

Mr. G. Boland

I understand that it is altogether a matter for the Civil Service Commissioners. The conditions of employment are prescribed by the Department of Finance in consultation with the Department concerned, but the subjects of examinations are entirely a matter for the Civil Service Commissioners. I am sure that the Deputy himself is aware of that. There has been no change in that respect since the Deputy was a Minister.

Mr. Minch

Am I in order, Sir, in referring to postal workers inside the Post Office in relation to an examination that was asked for recently?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The examinations are conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners.

Mr. G. Boland

I think the Deputy is referring to examinations held within the Department itself. It depends on the type of examination to which the Deputy is referring.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

These are limited competition examinations.

Mr. G. Boland

There are limited competition examinations held by the Department, and that is a matter for the Civil Service Commissioners also.

Mr. Minch

I am referring to a case where, say, six individuals go up for an examination for promotion in the Post Office. All six candidates pass, but there are only three vacancies. Am I right in saying that the procedure is that the other three have to go up for re-examination when the next examination takes place?

Mr. G. Boland

That is a matter for the Civil Service Commissioners altogether. Where there is a certain number of vacancies the matter is decided by competition and the unsuccessful candidates would have to go up again. However, it is the Commissioners' affair and not ours.

Mr. J.I. McGuire

I should just like to add a few words to what Deputy O'Higgins said. I do not know whether the Minister has ever told the House— perhaps he has done so on some occasion—on what principle he tries to run this Department in general. It seems to me, from his remarks in opening this debate this evening, that there is an anxiety on his part to make the income of this Department balance expenditure. It does seem to me that if that is the principle upon which it is sought to run this Department, it is a false principle, and one which is not being expressed for the first time by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. We had precisely the same attitude expressed here by the Minister for Finance when the Courts of Justice Bill was going through. You, Sir, will allow me to mention the fact that when that Bill was going through the House the Minister for Finance put up the argument that those people who actually make use of the courts—in other words, those who avail themselves of the machinery for the administration of justice in the State— should be responsible for its upkeep. It seems to me that the same type of mentality exists in the mind of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. It must be remembered that a public Government monopoly is not in the same position as a private monopoly. In the case of a private monopoly, such as transport, the criterion of charges should be what will give a proper wage to the workers and a proper income to the owners of the business. That should be the criterion of what the public are charged for the service: those two considerations alone, a proper wage for the employees and a decent return on the capital invested by the owners in the business. In this public service it is obvious that another consideration will apply, first because in the public service the only source of revenue is the sale of the commodity which they deal in, but in the case of a public Government service there are hundreds of other sources from which losses can be met. It seems clear to me that in the case of an essential service like the Post Office the people who must of necessity avail of it should not have to bear the total expense of keeping it up.

Mr. Norton

In the course of his opening speech the Minister made reference to the fact that the results of his efforts to secure new telephone subscribers was disappointing in many respects. I wonder whether the Minister has scratched beneath the surface to ascertain some of the causes of the inability of the Post Office to extend the number of telephone subscribers in a manner that would satisfy his expectations. I want to refer to one particular phase in the policy of the Post Office which is retarding possible development. I refer to the case of subscribers in rural areas, or partly rural areas. Take the case of the Athy telephone exchange. If a private person in Athy desires the telephone he can get it by paying an annual charge of £5, or if it is a business line, the telephone can be got by paying £6 10s. 0d. That person may live a mile from the exchange, but if a person is residing within a mile of Ballytore exchange, and wants a private line there, the cost to that person is the cost of erecting the line and of maintaining the exchange. In that particular case a person may be charged £14 for the use of the telephone as against the £5 which a person may obtain the telephone for in a place like Athy. Surely the Minister does not consider it possible that people would gladly pay a rental of £14 for the use of the telephone? It has also to be borne in mind that in places like Ballytore the number of hours during which the telephone service is effective is limited, whereas in places like Carlow there is a 24-hour service to offer to potential subscribers. The charge to a potential subscriber who is only provided with a service for a period of ten hours is almost three times as high as the charge made to a potential subscriber who will be provided with a 24-hour service.

I think that the Minister, if he consults those who have the responsibility of interviewing potential subscribers, will find that the method of telephone rating in rural areas is such as to prevent the development of the telephone service in those particular areas. I suggest that the Minister ought to examine the matter thoroughly and ascertain the precise difficulties in the way of securing new subscribers. If he does, I feel convinced that he will be able to see that the shortsighted policy of the Post Office in maintaining present charges for telephone rentals is mainly responsible for the difficulty of securing new subscribers in those areas. The Minister might look across the Channel and see the way in which the same difficulty, which was for a long time allowed to obstruct telephone development, has been got over. If he does that I think he will see that the results there, following the scrapping of the old policy that they had in operation, not only have justified the adoption of the new policy, but I feel sure that the results of it will convince the Minister here of the desirability of adopting the same progressive line. I feel sure that there is a big future before telephone development in this country. I fully believe that many more subscribers can be secured in rural areas, but they are not going to be induced to avail of the telephone by the limited service at present available and by the high charges made by the Post Office in respect of telephone rentals. I hope the Minister can see a way of overcoming those difficulties. I feel sure that there is an enormous number of new subscribers who could be obtained for the Post Office, and I believe that a break with the present policy would fully justify itself in results.

In the course of his statement the Minister referred to the comprehensive building programme which the Post Office are about to carry out. I observe that special mention was made of what it is intended to do in respect of the erection of a new sorting and delivery office at Pearse Street. If I had not heard over a long period of years assurances from previous Ministers that this work would be carried out with the utmost rapidity, I would be inclined to be profoundly impressed by what the Minister said this evening, but if the Minister looks up previous debates on the Post Office Estimates, as well as previous Ministerial statements introducing the Estimates, he will find that his predecessors over a long number of years have expressed the same confident hope that things would be done as rapidly as possible. All this rapidity has led us to the fact that we still have a disused distillery as the central sorting and delivery office in the City of Dublin. In June, 1933, I asked the Minister in the course of the debate on this Estimate when it was hoped to commence work on reconstructing the new central sorting and delivery office in Dublin, and even at the risk of reminding the Minister of his previous promise, I want to tell him how little has been done to implement the promise then made. In June, 1933, the Minister indicated that he anticipated that the work of the construction of a new office would be commenced in Sepember, 1933. The year 1933 passed. We went into the year 1934, and the most that was done in that year was simply the demolition of the old shed which served as a garage there. That demolition work has been completed long since, and apparently nothing tangible has yet been done in the way of commencing the erection of a new garage in Pearse Street, although that work is necessary in order to facilitate the work of reconstructing the whole office.

I know that the Minister is personally anxious to have this work expedited. I know that he is anxious to have the work started because no Minister with any responsibility for the control of the postal services could feel satisfied while a disused distillery, insanitary, unsuitable, draughty, and a menace to the health of the staff, serves as the chief office for the main postal artery of the country. I suggest to the Minister that still more pressure might be applied to the Board of Works in endeavouring to have this work carried out this year, and I would suggest to him in particular that an effort ought to be made, within the next month or two, to have the work of erecting the garage undertaken. With that undertaken and completed, one can see the possibility of the new office being constructed within measurable time. In view of the fact that the work of constructing the new garage has not yet been commenced, and, apparently, the Minister is not even now prepared to give a definite date as to when the work will be commenced, I fear that this whole question of the reconstruction of the new sorting and delivery office at Pearse Street will form material for the Minister's speech on next year's Post Office Estimates. I should like to be disappointed in that respect, and I invite the Minister to disappoint me, and I do think he ought to be able to induce the Board of Works to move more rapidly in this matter than they have so far apparently seen fit to move.

I am sorry that Deputy Little is not in the House, because I want to raise a matter which particularly affects his constituents. That is the classification of the Waterford Post Office. It is scarcely necessary to go into the details of the matter with the Minister because I am sure not only does he know them as Minister, but his whole Party knows them as well. When in opposition Deputy Little constantly pleaded with the then Government to raise the classification of the Waterford Post Office, and judging by the gusto with which he put forward that claim and the fact that it was made annually for a number of years, one had every reason to think that that declaration of policy by Deputy Little, who has now reached the exalted position of Parliamentary Secretary to the President, was the official policy of the Fianna Fáil Party in respect of the classification of the Waterford Office.

The Minister is aware that the post office staff of Waterford, both postmen and post office clerks, are paid on the lowest wage classification there is in the country. In other words, although the staffs in post offices are paid on three scales—Class 1, Class 2 and Class 3—the Waterford staff are paid on the basis of Class 3. In other words, Waterford is considered to be of no more importance in the postal sphere than Cashel, Knocklong, Abbeyleix or Clifden, and I am sure the Minister will admit that that is a serious hardship on the staff of the post office in Waterford. The disability from which the Waterford staff suffers arose in 1908 through a mistake made in a return of the cost of living at Waterford. Various efforts have been made since 1908 to secure a rectification of the wrong then done to the Waterford staff, but all efforts to have their legitimate grievance righted have so far been fruitless. In 1933 we thought the Promised Land was in sight because Deputy Little, the Parliamentary Secretary to the President, went to Waterford in February, 1933——

Mr. Dillon

And made a statement.

Mr. Norton

——and announced to the citizens of Waterford, obviously with an eye on the fact that post office servants have votes, that if the Fianna Fáil Party were returned to office, he was prepared to guarantee that the classification of the Waterford Post Office would be raised.

Mr. Dillon

Hilarious laughter from the Government Benches.

Mr. Norton

Everybody in this House knows that Deputy Little is a very responsible, very careful and very cautious Deputy and not given, for instance, to any of those platform tricks of which one might accuse Deputy Donnelly.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Donnelly takes pride in that.

Mr. Belton

But he delivered the goods, perhaps.

Mr. Norton

Which Deputy Little did not. With all his caution, with all his prudence and with all his responsibility, Deputy Little goes to Waterford in 1933 and announces that if only the people of Waterford, and the Post Office staff in particular, will vote for him and return him as their representative in the 1933 general election, he is prepared to guarantee that the classification of the Waterford Post Office would be raised.

Mr. Dillon

And that national taxation would be reduced by £2,000,000 per annum, without interfering with any salaries.

Mr. Donnelly

He must have been talking to me before he went down.

Mr. Norton

That was in February, 1933, and I have no doubt in the world that Deputy Little did not say this on his own; I am satisfied that he said this only after consultation with the Party managers. I have no doubt that Deputy Little had probably some nodding arrangement with the Party Managers that if Waterford would return him again he, in return, would raise the classification of the office. Deputy Little may come into the House before the debate is over, and I hope he does. Then probably we will know whether this declaration was just the only indiscretion of his lifetime or whether he has been let down by some of the Party managers. Obviously, the promise was made. I do not think that even Deputy Little will question the fact that he promised to have the Waterford classification improved if the Fianna Fáil Party came back in 1933. That was in February, 1933, and it is now May, 1935, and nobody can be accused of either peevishness or fussiness if they ask Deputy Little to make sure that his Government, which was returned in 1933, now honours the solemn promise which he made on their behalf in February, 1933.

Mr. Dillon

Consult Deputy Dowdall about that. Their promises are only statements.

Mr. Norton

Deputy Little, in advocating an improvement in the classification of the Waterford office, was only advocating the barest possible measure of justice for the Waterford staff. I am sure that if the Minister examines the case he will agree that there is considerable merit in the claim of the Waterford staff for an improved classification, and I hope, for the sake of showing that justice does get the consideration which, on the merits it should get, for the sake of Deputy Little's reputation in Waterford and for the sake of the Government's reputation, because the assurance was given positively there by him, the Minister will take steps to improve the classification of the Waterford office and so right an injustice which has survived since 1908. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, May 10th, 1935.