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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 17 May 1935

Vol. 56 No. 10

Dairy Produce (Price Stabilisation) Bill, 1935—Report (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following amendment:—
In page 9, section 15 (2), line 13, after the word "may" to insert the words "there search for any such butter and examine all butter found on such search and also".— (Minister for Agriculture.)

I have little to add to what I said on this amendment before the adjournment of the Dáil the night before last. I put it to the Minister that he has not really considered and does not grasp the measure of annoyance which the enforcement of this clause in the aggravated form in which he proposes to embody it in the Bill is likely to cause and that he does not appreciate the difficulties that it will put in the way of the smooth working of the Bill. I gathered from his speech in introducing the amendment that he professed to believe that, in practice, it would not be used in the case of the particular class for whom we have spoken—the farming class. If that be so, and if there are only one or two cases in which this power would be used, I think that the irritation caused by the introduction of it will not be at all compensated for by the use he intends to make of it. I ask him once more to seek a formula which will exclude the producers of butter—the farmers—and include the particular people at whom he professes to aim. Though I fully accept the bona fides of the Minister's professions in this matter, I cannot accept the likelihood of their being realised. With the general temptation that this Bill, when it becomes an Act, will inevitably put before the producer, there will, I fear, be a tendency to evade the law so far as possible. The inspectors will then get busy in the inspection of farm houses. I do not think that they can do so effectively by this clause, as it is to be amended. That is the point I am making against the clause. The clause as it is to be amended will simply put into the hands of the Minister power to harry people. I do not think the sections of the Bill of which the Minister spoke so strongly will empower him to get after what will be analogous to smuggling to any appreciable extent.

It is obvious that the Minister has no real conception of the objection felt to this kind of proceeding in the country districts. If he had, I am sure he would receive our objections to this clause much more sympathetically than he has done. As the Bill stands, it is less objectionable than it will be if this amendment be carried. Therefore, we propose to oppose the amendment. What the difficulties are in distinguishing between the farmer and the butter merchant the Minister did not make clear. The House will remember that the Minister, when asked to justify this measure, refused to accept responsibility for doing so, and tried to throw the responsibility on the Opposition. He was asked how the powers he is now assuming would be made effective. He did not answer. The objection was made, again and again, that these powers would not be effective. His only answer was: "How would the Opposition make them effective?" He made no effort to show how the powers he is claiming would be effective. He objected to the introduction of a clause distinguishing between the farmer and the shopkeeper—seller or butter merchant—and shelved the problem merely by asking how the Opposition would deal with it. He forgot, apparently, that he is in charge of the measure and that it is his business to justify the legislation he introduces and not the business of the Opposition. We find the clause as it is proposed to be amended more objectionable than the provision at present in the Bill.

Listening to the Minister on a previous occasion in connection with this section, the thought struck me that the proper title for this Bill, when it becomes an Act, would be "The Butter Safety Act" because of its resemblance and similarity, with this amendment incorporated, to the Public Safety Act, about which we know so much. This section empowers an official of the Government to go into any premises where he believes butter may be kept or stored. Having done that, what happens? Unlike the provisions of the Public Safety Act, it is not an offence to have butter on the premises. Therefore, the inspector must look outside and follow up the transaction in order to establish an offence. The Minister, as Deputy O'Sullivan said, must realise that there is great objection—and quite rightly— to an inspector—I do not care to what branch of the Government service he belongs—going into every room in a farmer's house in which he thinks butter might be kept. Would anybody like to be subjected to that annoyance? Would the Ministers themselves think it reasonable that somebody should be empowered to knock at their doors at night, or even during the day, and say: "We are going to search your premises"? The Minister says that the powers will not be used, although the Government will possess them. I think there is too much of that type of excuse for legislation at the present time. I came up against a case which reminded me very strongly of that recently. Although it is not relevant to this section, I ask the indulgence of the Chair for a moment while I refer to it. A child of mine, aged about ten years, chanced to be absent for two or three days from school because he was ill. I met a guard to whom I had occasion to speak upon another matter. He said: "By the way, is this boy of yours delicate? He was away a couple of days from school and no excuse was given." It was an offence for the boy to be absent from school when an excuse was not written in the book. That is the way that legislation is passed here. I am afraid that people are not sufficiently careful as regards the powers which they put into the hands of the Government.

What Government passed that legislation?

The only thing I know about it is that a representative of the Government whose duty it was to look up the attendance of children at school hauled me up about it and gave me to understand that it was an offence to have the child absent from school unless there was an excuse. In this case there was a genuine excuse. I was not a member of the House at the time that that legislation was passed. I simply quote that incident in support of my argument to show what can happen in connection with the enforcement of a drastic section such as the Minister is seeking to insert in this Bill. This is a type of section which, in my opinion, would only justify itself in a measure such as the Public Safety Act. If it is inserted in this Bill, what is it going to mean? It will mean that inspectors can call at all times to farmers' houses and make a search, but still the position will be that even if they do find what they are looking for they cannot prosecute. Surely there ought to be some other way of doing what the Minister is aiming at than by the insertion of a drastic power of this kind.

It will be admitted that it is not very nice that inspectors should have the power to come into a person's house at any time at their own sweet will to carry out a search, and the strange thing about it is that if they do search and find butter it is not an offence. I imagine that the only way in which the Minister can get satisfactory evidence of an offence having been committed is by having an inspector outside the door of a farmer's house, getting him to follow the farmer's trap into the nearest town and seeing how he disposes of any butter that he may bring into it. I imagine you would need to have something of that sort in order to get evidence to bring a prosecution. The finding of butter in a house is not an offence and does not prove anything. Why, therefore, have such an objectionable section in the Bill? I object very strongly to it, and I submit to the Minister that he ought to try and find some other means of achieving the object that he has in view.

Question put: That the words be there inserted.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 41; Níl, 25.

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.

Níl

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Doyle, Feadar S.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Reilly, John Joseph.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and O'Leary.
Amendment declared carried.
The following amendments were on the Order Paper:—
3. In page 9, section 16 (2) (b), line 37, to delete the word "five" and substitute the word "seven".—(Aire Talmhaíochta.)
4. In page 9, section 16 (2) (b), line 37, to delete the word "five" and substitute the word "fifteen".— (Alexander Haslett.)

As the question to be put on amendment No. 3 is that the word "seven" be substituted, if that amendment were carried, amendment No. 4 might not then be moved. Accordingly, the two amendments should be debated together.

Are we going to consider both amendments together?

Otherwise amendment No. 4 might not be considered.

What chance, Sir, is there of asking the House to have "fifteen" substituted instead of "seven"?

There will be an opportunity to ask the Minister on amendment No. 3 to consider a larger figure.

There is no chance of putting it to the House?

The House, if it desires to have "fifteen" inserted, could do so by defeating amendment No. 3.

Could we not have the opinion of the House on the word "fifteen" first and then if the House does not decide in the affirmative try "seven"?

The Deputy might learn the Minister's intentions first.

This is a question not of the debate but of an expression of opinion of the House. I am not questioning your ruling, Sir, but I presume that the Minister's amendment and Deputy Haslett's amendment are moved by them both merely as members of the House. In that case, I suggest that the Minister has no priority over Deputy Haslett. Deputy Haslett proposes a wider departure from the actual Bill as it stands, and I suggest that that is a reason why the first decision should be taken on Deputy Haslett's amendment. Otherwise, the House will not be in a position of giving a really definite view on the matter because we may have to vote for the Minister's amendment as against what is in the Bill. On the other hand, the bulk of the Deputies on this side of the House and on the Independent Benches, as well as the bulk of Deputy Belton's Party, want "fifteen pounds" instead of "seven," and I suggest that there is no method of deciding this unless we are allowed to put the "fifteen" against the "seven" if the "seven" is carried. We prefer "fifteen" to "seven," but we also prefer "seven" to what is in the Bill.

Dr. Ryan

I should like to point out that it is of no great importance which amendment is put, because if Deputies will read sub-section (2) (b) of Section 16 they will see that it says:—

The total quantity of butter sold in any one week by the licensee shall not exceed such quantity as may be prescribed by regulations.

That means that it can be altered the day after the Bill goes through, if it is found necessary.

The Deputy has put a point to the Chair. He may rest assured that precedent is being followed. The Deputy will realise also that the course he suggests might result in a whole series of amendments. The usual procedure has been to decide the issue on the amendment first submitted; in this case a Ministerial amendment. The House, having decided, if it does decide, that the word "seven" stand, could not alter its decision immediately afterwards.

In order to shorten the discussion, Sir, would I be in order in suggesting that the Minister alter his amendment by substituting a higher figure than "seven"? I do not know if it is in order, but perhaps it might meet the wishes of all the parties in the House to have a figure higher than "seven" in order to meet Deputy Haslett's desire as enshrined in his amendment.

The Deputy might consider it very advisable to do so, but, technically, there is nothing before the House until the amendment is moved.

On a point of order, Sir, as this is a Ministerial amendment to change the word "five" to "seven," could not the Bill be amended by agreement of the House to read "seven," and then have a discussion on amendment No. 4?

The Minister may have some suggestion to meet the House.

Dr. Ryan

As I said before, it is of no great importance, technically speaking, because it could be altered afterwards by regulation. On the other hand, however, whatever amendment the Minister might introduce would naturally be an indication of the figure that he might stick to afterwards unless other considerations came in that he did not foresee at the moment. I put in the word "seven" therefore and thought that we might take that as the figure that would at least be put into the first regulations, if regulations are necessary. I should like to repeat that we may not foresee conditions now as we would see them then and, of course, the figure might be higher or perhaps lower. We can only see conditions as time goes on. As far as I could judge the position and as far as I could foresee the working of this Act, I was inclined to raise the figure from "five" to "seven." I am quite prepared, however, to do what Senator Gibbons suggested.

A Deputy

"Deputy" Gibbons!

Dr. Ryan

I am sorry. However, it is not any harm to give a man a higher rank than he has.

Is it a higher rank?

Dr. Ryan

Well—let us call it the Upper House. It is rather confusing, of course, to come back to one House from another. However, I think that there is no necessity to lose a lot of time over this amendment. I have a fair idea of what are the views of the Opposition on this particular thing— that they would like to see the figure as high as possible and that they would prefer to have 15 lbs. to the 5 lbs. I think, however, that 15 lbs. would make the Bill rather useless in that particular section in regard to the collection of levy, that is, from the producers who are delivering butter direct to the consumer. There are two reasons why I should like to raise the figure somewhat above "five." In the first place, because these small producers have not more than 5, 6 or 7 lbs. of butter to sell every week and are, perhaps, more deserving of consideration than large producers; and in the second place, it is a big consideration in the matter of finance, because the cost of collecting from a large number of small people would perhaps be almost as much as might be raised in that way. For these two reasons this clause was put in. For the same reasons, it could be argued that 5 lbs. could be raised to 7 lbs. or to 15 lbs. It is a matter of opinion where the particular limit should be set, but, if it would shorten discussion, I would certainly agree to a compromise by making the figure 10 lbs. In making the figure 10 lbs. that is not only amending the section but also giving an indication of the line I must pursue in the working of the Bill, conditions remaining as I see them. It must be understood, if there is a change in conditions, that this figure may be changed upwards or downwards.

The Minister realises that the sale of 15 lbs. of butter a week would be only the product of a small number of cows, about three fresh cows, after allowing a generous supply for the owner's family. If the Minister is in a compromising mood, I suggest 12 lbs. I see the force of the Minister's argument that he should have power to make regulations disregarding either 10 lbs. or 12 lbs.

I do not think he has.

I think so. The clause reads:

(b) the total quantity of butter sold in any one week by the licensee shall not exceed such quantity as may be prescribed by regulations made under this section or, if no such regulations are made, five pounds;

If regulations are not made people are free to sell whatever we agree upon now.

That would be an indication by the Minister if the Act is to continue, as to the limit that should be set. I suggest that the Minister should accept the figure 12 lbs., which would only be the produce of two good cows.

I do not question your ruling, Sir, in the matter working out as it does, but I think I have a grievance. A point was made about saying time, particularly when the question was debated previously for over three hours. In my innocence, I rose to suggest a compromise and thought the Minister would undertake to put down an amendment. I did so in good fath. The Minister rather torpedoed my amendment by coming in with one. I do not say that he did so intentionally, but I think it would be fairer to have discussed my amendment and to arrange on whatever the House agreed on.

The Chair admits that there is considerable force in the argument.

Has the Minister moved the amendment?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

My strong point is that we need a figure higher than 5 lbs. That is a ridiculous figure, in this way, that it does not prescribe an average of 5 lbs. a week all the year round, but says 5 lbs. any week. I want to make a case for the person with two or three cows who has a few lbs. of butter for sale during a few weeks of the year. We saw that difficulty on a previous amendment. The lower the figure the more the difficulty is accentuated. The idea underlying this question of raising the figure from a small one is that we cut out insignificant amounts and look after people with a substantial amount of butter for sale. In putting the figure 15 lbs. in the amendment, I did so, so that we could discuss it and come to an arrangement. If the figure is kept low there is more encouragement for evasion. The House seems to have awakened to a very keen sense of the difficulties that arose in many other Acts that were passed, where the outlook was towards evasion. When the figure is low it opens the door to evasion and would lead to the wearing of mantillas which I believe is still common in parts of County Cork. If the Minister raises the figure substantially I suggest there will not be the same encouragement to evasion.

That would be a new industry.

There is also this consideration, that if the figure is kept low it is people who are selling only a few pounds of butter and who need the money most will benefit. We cannot follow people with 4 lbs. of butter because the amount collected would be insignificant and the game would not be worth the candle. We are creating an impossible situation if we pass legislation which will become ridiculous in the eyes of the people, seeing that they can easily evade it. I agree with Deputy Belton that the figure should be raised.

I support Deputy Belton's suggestion that the figure should be 12 lbs., which would simply represent four or four-and-a-half gallons of milk, seven days of the week, on every farm. If there was any little advantage to be given by fixing the figure at 12 lbs. the Minister and the House should not object to giving it to small farmers, so that they could, if they wished, dispose of a few pounds of butter.

Would the Minister consider making it 28 lbs.?

I appeal to the Minister to make the figure 12 lbs. As I understand, he may change that figure by increasing or decreasing it as he considers necessary. We should not make the figure too small. This is an industry on which a great many industries hinge. I strongly appeal to the Minister to fix the figure at 12 lbs.

The Deputies who have been discussing this amendment seem to be under the impression that the small producers were the only people who made home-manufactured butter. I would like to point out to Deputy Haslett that the creameries in his constituency and mine depend largely upon the three-cow type of supplier, the man to whom Deputy Belton has referred as the supplier of milk. While it is all very well to come in here and ask that the figure be raised from 5 to 7, from 7 to 10 and from 10 to 12 lbs., I think Deputies should not forget that the small suppliers to creameries who are assisting and helping and contributing to the stabilisation of prices, should not be asked to do so while their neighbours who are on a par with them are to be permitted to get away with the sale of 10 lbs. or 12 lbs, of butter per week. In discussing this whole question that should be kept in mind.

I know as a result of the Stabilisation of Butter Prices Act in my constituency that a number of small farmers took advantage of that Act and withdrew from those creameries their supplies of milk. They changed over to manufacturing their milk into butter at home. They took advantage of the increased price as a result of this Stabilisation Act. In discussing that matter with them, I pointed out that they were doing an injustice to their neighbours, and they replied naturally, "As long as your Government permit me to do this, why should not I take advantage of it?" It is all very well to talk about the small farmer who is producing a certain amount of butter at home and wants to sell it. It is all very well to try to make him immune from the result of the stabilisation of prices, but remember you are asking other small farmers, his neighbours, to make a contribution to effect that stabilisation of prices. As far as I can see, and my constituency is affected in this matter, I think the gesture of the Minister is quite fair. I do not think he should agree to go any further than he has indicated.

Sometimes when I hear Deputies on the Fianna Fáil Benches talking about small farmers I ask myself have the small farmers of this country become lice on the body politic. Hear the patronising tone of Deputy Smith about small farmers and his telling us that they say: "As long as your Government permits us to do this why should we not take advantage of it?" Is it really a crime in this country to earn your living? Is every small farmer to go hat in hand and to kneel on bended knee before Deputy Smith and his colleagues of the Fianna Fáil Party before he is permitted to earn a living for his family? What crime is it that the small farmer should try to make the most profit out of his business of buttermaking when every other part of his business has been ruined? Why should this House enter into a conspiracy now to destroy the one small industry in which the farmer can make a profit? Are the remaining farmers to be brought under the yoke of Deputy Smith and his colleagues? Have they to crawl to these Deputies in order to be permitted to make a living? Sometimes it makes me sick to hear farmers' representatives craving indulgence from the Minister to be allowed to sell a couple of pounds of butter in order to support their families.

One wonders sometimes whether all sense of justice has died out of our people. One wonders has all sense of independence died out of them. It appears the more we are trampled and the more we are kicked and the more we are crushed down, the more we are inclined to feed out of the hands of those who are trampling on us. The Minister for Agriculture, of course, should fix no limit on these people as to the amount of butter they should sell. I will not oppose the proposal to increase the figure to 12 lb., because I want to spare the people as much suffering as I can; but this much I will say—that I would never ask the Minister for a concession in this matter, because I think it is an outrage to impose this tax at all. But 12 lb. will be less oppressive and less offensive than 7 lb. I ask the House to bear in mind that, having made this gesture here on this matter, every pound of this limit can be taken away, by Order, at the Minister's own whim. Whether it is 7 lb. or 3 lb. or 12 lb., if the Minister wants to make the production of farm butter uneconomic as he is about making the production of pigs uneconomic, he can do it. This House need not lay the flattering unction to its soul that by making it 12 lb. instead of 7 lb. they are doing something beneficial for the people. They are not. All they are doing is they are creating false hopes in the people. They are creating in the people a false sense of confidence that they are all right——

I wish to draw the Deputy's attention to the fact that this section as to the quantity of butter the farmer can sell is passed and that the question now before the House is whether the limit is to be 5 lb. or 7 lb. or 12 lb. or 15 lb.

Surely I can argue against the limit that is proposed to be fixed?

Yes, but not against the section.

Not against the section, but I want to point out that any such gesture on the part of the Minister is nothing more than a fraud. It does not matter two hoots what figure he inserts. The Minister himself admits it is only a pious hope on his part. What I want to make clear is that Deputy Victory and Deputy Gibbons and other Deputies getting up here and asking the Minister to spare the small farmer—these crawlings to the Minister for concessions are merely an attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the small farmer; because these Deputies know that having got that gracious concession from the Minister that that gracious concession can again be taken away by Order. As soon as it suits the Minister for Industry and Commerce to kick the Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for Agriculture will have to change his tune. He will bow down as he has done before to the will of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The first time that President de Valera cracks his whip and says that he thinks that it is about time that some more of the small farmers should be put into the front line trenches, the Minister for Agriculture will issue the Order taking this concession away. He will betray the people to whom he is responsible as he betrayed them before. That is why I object to the farmers appealing to the Minister for this concession. This measure puts every butter producer in the country in the power of the Minister. I would not ask the Minister for 2 ozs., because I know that any concession he makes now is absolutely useless. It can be taken away to-morrow. So far as I am concerned I have not the slightest interest whether the figure is fixed at 5 lb. or 12 lb. or 15 lb. It is all going to amount to the same thing in the end. It is immaterial to the farmers what figure is put in now. The Minister will have to take some figure, 7 or 5 or 12. I want to ask the Minister whether, in fixing this figure as to what the farmer will be permitted to sell, will that permit a person who is allowed to sell 5, 7 or 12 lb. a week to collect the butter over a period and sell a firkin of butter if it is not for re-sale by the person to whom it is sold; say if the butter is for the use of a baker or some such person for use in Saorstát Eireann?

Dr. Ryan

No; I am afraid I cannot graciously permit that.

I think there was never anything substantial in any concession the Minister was making. It is a pure fraud.

With a lot of what Deputy Dillon has said I agree.

The Deputy has already intervened.

If you will remember, Sir, when I was speaking before we were discussing which amendment we would put and making suggestions. I do not think that the Minister's amendment was moved at the time. For that reason, I do not think I can be said to be speaking twice on the motion. May I go on?

While I agree substantially with what Deputy Dillon said, there is a time for everything. I am sorry that he thought fit, just at this time when we were nearly striking a bargain, to throw in a jarring note which I think could be better left out. After all, no matter what opinion we may have of the Minister and the Government, they are in control. There is no use in an ordinary man trying to defend his life against Jack Dempsey, say, if he is in the ring with him.

Deputy Dillon is no ordinary man.

I would be as slow to run away from a scrap as anybody. Fighting on my own account, however, is one thing, and I realise that we are here with power vested in us by others. In the circumstances, I think the attitude of Deputy Haslett, Deputy Gibbons and Deputy Victory reflects the opinion of the constituents of those Deputies. I cannot say it reflects the opinion of the people who sent me here, because I represent a city constituency. I am quite sure it reflects the opinion of Deputy Victory's constituents, because he represents my native county. I would, therefore, make an appeal to the Minister, as this only means 2 lbs. more of butter in the week and would make a substantial difference, to reconsider the matter.

The Minister appreciates what it would cost to inspect the premises of such producers to see that they do not sell over a certain amount of butter. The higher he makes the maximum that may be sold, the less inspection will be necessary. The Minister appreciates that the game will not be worth the candle, as if the 5 lbs. is left in the Bill it is coming down to the one-cow man. I, therefore, would make an appeal to the Minister on this matter, not that I am going on my knees to him or the Fianna Fáil Government, but because we are in the position that the Minister can get the authority of this House for 5 lbs., 7 lbs., or 12 lbs. I realise that position. When a man puts a pistol to my head and my hands are behind my back, that is not the time for me to say, "I will knock your head off."

It is the time to kick him in the stomach.

That is all right if my brains would not be scattered before I had time to lift my foot. I am quite sure that if this question were put to the constituents of Deputies who have spoken they would advise caution and common sense and coming to a mutual agreement on this, rather than challenging a fight, because it is not we here who will suffer, but the small farmers. I would, therefore, ask the Minister to make it 12 lbs. The 2 lbs. difference between is not worth all this talk.

Seeing that the Minister told us this morning that even the putting in of 5 or 7 lbs. is a matter of his own convenience and not a matter of meeting the farmers, Deputy Belton ought to see the futility of appealing to the Minister.

Dr. Ryan

I think Deputy Brennan ought to try to be a little fair in the matter. The first reason I gave was to meet the people, and the second reason was for convenience.

As a matter of fact, I intend to consult the Official Reports.

Dr. Ryan

Do, because I think they will be found to be more reliable than your memory.

I understood the Minister to say that it was not to suit these people, but that really what was the deciding influence with him was his own convenience.

Dr. Ryan

I said Number 1, and Number 2, not "really."

Seeing that the Minister can get around anything done in this House by way of regulations, I do not see that there is any sentiment in the matter. If he wants to do the thing he will do it for his own convenience, as he told us, and it does not matter what appeals we make to him.

As one who threw out the suggestion for a compromise on a mutually agreed figure, I certainly think it was very bad taste on Deputy Dillon's part to come in here this morning——

If the Deputy is only going to reply to Deputy Dillon's remarks I would remind him that he has already spoken.

I only made a suggestion the first time.

The fact is that Deputy Dillon and Deputy Gibbons spoke before the amendment was moved.

There was a time when you called us "dumb-driven cattle" because we did not speak.

The spectacle of Deputy Dillon being so intoxicated with the exuberance of his own verbosity so early this morning is more pathetic than otherwise. The Minister has shown a disposition to meet the suggestion of Deputy Haslett very fairly. This suggestion was first mooted by Deputy Haslett on the Committee Stage of the Bill. He did not mention the precise figure to which the exemption limit should be raised, but he said "either double or treble it." Fianna Fáil Deputies are quite as solicitous for the welfare of that important person immortalised by Clarence Mangan, "The Woman of Three Cows," as any Deputy on the Opposition Benches. I would suggest seriously to Deputies who are insisting upon the figure of 12 lbs. that, as the Minister has come up to the 10 lbs. mark, they should leave it to the Minister's discretion.

That is what you are going to do.

We have heard Deputy Dillon speaking at unreasonable length with the usual sound and thunder to which the House has become so accustomed. I would seriously suggest to Deputies Haslett and Belton that they should leave the figure to the Minister himself. Deputy Smith has voiced a viewpoint which is rather important in counties such as Monaghan, where there are creameries supplied by farmers with a small number of cows. You have, therefore, to visualise the position in its entirety, and as the Minister has had an opportunity of considering the matter fully, I think we should leave it to the Minister and not press it any further.

I do not intend to follow the course into which this debate has gone. There were a number of points raised, partly by the Minister, and a couple of interesting remarks dropped on which there could be quite an interesting debate on agriculture, but I am not dealing with them. What I really want to point out is that the Minister made it perfectly clear, and there is not the slightest doubt that he is correct, that it does not matter whether he puts in 5, 10, 20 or 100 lbs. It does not make the slightest difference. If you put in 100 lbs. it makes no difference.

Deputy Gibbons made an appeal to the House to leave it to the Minister. The House has left it to the Minister, because the section as it stands, even as amended, leaves full power to the Minister to make it 1, 2, 20 or 50 lbs. Why he did not immediately get up and say: "I accept 15 lbs." I do not know, because he made it clear that at the very best this was a kind of vague figure. May I point out to the Minister that a short time ago his information as to the existing conditions led him to suggest 5 lbs. Now the Minister changes his views every week. Surely conditions have not so tremendously altered within the last couple of weeks.

But it snowed this morning and the cows went off on the milk.

The Minister made it quite clear at the beginning that it did not matter a button what figure you put in.

Dr. Ryan

Then what is all the talk about?

Would the Minister say 12 lbs.?

Dr. Ryan

No; if there is no agreement to ten, let seven stand.

Despite precedent the Chair is so impressed with the arguments put up by two Deputies here to-day that I propose putting the question: "That the word ‘five' stand." I presume that question may be taken as negatived. The House will then be given an opportunity of deciding between 15 and 7 or 10, whichever the Minister desires to have in his amendment.

Dr. Ryan

Try ten.

Will we have a free vote?

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy is free to vote as he likes. He is the only man in the House who is free.

The question: "That the word ‘five' stand," is negatived?

Could Deputy Haslett get the permission of the House to make his figure twelve and we might perhaps get agreement on it?

If there is agreement. Is there any objection?

The Minister's example is catching. Nobody knows his own mind.

The Chair does, and must be given an opportunity of putting the necessary questions. Is there agreement to change the word "fifteen" to "twelve" in Deputy Haslett's amendment? The amendment is altered to read "twelve" instead of "fifteen."

We would vote against it any way.

It is a matter of supreme indifference to those benches whether it is 12, 15, or 100.

I take it there is no agreement to a figure.

You can change it any way you wish.

The Chair has no desire to change it in any fashion, but to facilitate the House in arriving at a decision.

I think the Chair is being most unfairly treated, while trying to meet the House, and I think those interjections are very wrong. I would take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the manner in which the Chair is endeavouring to meet us.

Is it agreed that we substitute twelve for fifteen?

Dr. Ryan

There is no objection.

There never was at any time.

Question put: "That the word ‘twelve' be inserted where the word ‘five' stood."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 33; Níl, 46.

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Reilly, John Joseph.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Wall, Nicholas.

Níl

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Clery, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Doyle and O'Leary; Níl: Deputies Little and Smith.
Question declared lost.
Question—"That the word ‘ten' be inserted where the word ‘five' stood"—agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 are out of order and cannot, therefore, be moved. Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 go together.

Dr. Ryan

I beg to move amendments Nos. 7 and 8:—

In page 12, Section 23 (1), lines 51 and 52, to delete the words "and the determination of such amount by the Minister shall be conclusive."

In page 12, Section 23 (2), line 59, to delete the words "whose determination thereof shall be final and conclusive."

Amendments agreed to.
Question put: "That the Bill, as amended, be received for final consideration."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 47; Níl, 34.

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Clery, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus F.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.

Níl

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Reilly, John Joseph.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Wall, Nicholas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and O'Leary.
Question declared carried.

Dr. Ryan

Could we take the Fifth Stage now?

Surely the Minister will give us the courtesy of a week?

Dr. Ryan

I think it was some day last week that I pointed out the urgency of this measure, and, on that occasion, the Opposition allowed the stages to go through fairly quickly.

We will give the Minister the Final Stage on Wednesday next.

Dr. Ryan

That makes a week's difference. I do not think I need thank the Deputy for giving it to me on Wednesday.

The Minister is regulating the Budget for Tuesday, and we will gladly give him the Bill on Tuesday. I do not think it is reasonable to ask for the Final Stage to-day.

Dr. Ryan

Why?

Because it has been materially amended and is a Bill of very great consequence.

Dr. Ryan

It is very seldom that Deputies resist taking the Final Stage immediately after the Report Stage.

If the Minister wants a concession from Deputies, I suggest he should not take up the attitude of "I can take it on Wednesday in spite of you." That is not the way to do it. I object to the Final Stage being taken to-day.

Dr. Ryan

Surely it is no concession for the Opposition to say "You can have it this day week"?

No, but if you want a concession, that is not the way to go about it.

Dr. Ryan

I do not want any concessions, but I should like it to be known that the Opposition are resisting this Bill because they denied they resisted the 1932 Bill.

Is the Minister in order in making a speech?

Dr. Ryan

In view of this obstruction, Sir, we will leave it back until next week.

May I submit that it is a disorderly observation on the part of the Minister to describe the Standing Orders as obstructive?

There is nothing in the Standing Orders to prevent the Final Stage being taken to-day.

Is there not a Standing Order requiring the Final Stage of a Bill to be taken on a different day from the Report Stage?

When a Bill has been amended on Report?

Fifth Stage ordered for Tuesday, 21st May.
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