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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 24 May 1935

Vol. 56 No. 14

Financial Resolutions—Report (Resumed). - Financial Resolution No. 11—Customs and Excise.

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Financial Resolution No. 11.—(Minister for Finance).

When speaking on this Resolution last night Deputy Dillon said:

"Well, this tax on sugar has been imposed by the Fianna Fáil Party and what could anybody expect from the Fianna Fáil Party but taxation of that kind?"

One would imagine that when Deputy Dillon was making that statement that he was wholly blameless in the matter. Deputy Dillon would now, at all events, like to forget that in 1932 he voted for the election of Deputy de Valera, and, consequently, for the election of this Government. In that respect, whatever responsibility is to flow from that vote for the President on that occasion, Deputy Dillon shares, of course, in it. The Deputy now wants to say that all this responsibility for additional burdens flows from the fact that we have a Fianna Fáil Government.

I gave him his chance in 1932 and, when he made a mess of it, I urged the people to kick him out in 1933.

Let us see the way in which Deputy Dillon did urge that in 1933. Deputy Dillon was in this House in 1933 and refused to vote against the election of Deputy de Valera for election as President of the Executive Council. Deputy MacDermot did likewise, and, so disgusted was Deputy Anthony with the attitude adopted by the Centre Party of that period, that he rightly described the Party as a jelly-fish Party, so that Deputy Dillon and Deputy MacDermot by their failure in 1933 to record a protest against the election of Deputy de Valera as President of the Executive Council have considerable responsibility for giving their endorsement to the election of a Fianna Fáil Government.

Is this speech of Deputy Norton's a sugar-coating speech?

He is not serious about sugar.

The President will be surprised to hear that I am responsible for having him in office to-day.

Deputy Norton on the Financial Resolution before the House.

The Deputy does not want that discussed.

That is the pill.

Now we will get the sugar.

Speaking here on the Budget a few days ago, the Minister for Agriculture said that this was a good Budget, that he was proud of the Budget, but I cannot help feeling amazed at the modesty of the Fianna Fáil Party in respect to the Budget. I am wondering when all the members of the Party are going to share in the pride that the Minister for Agriculture feels over this Budget. We ought, surely, to have some exuberance and enthusiasm from the Fianna Fáil Party over this Budget, but, apart from the frantic efforts of Ministers to explain it, there has been a rather amazing silence from the rest of the Party.

There is in the Financial Resolutions one which affords Deputies an opportunity of discussing the whole question of expenditure, taxation and taxable capacity, but on an individual Resolution the debate is confined to that Resolution.

Is it not in order to reply to statements made from the other side which were allowed by the Chair?

Statements may be replied to, but I suggest, without going into the merits of the matter, that those statements were replied to last night. Deputies should now direct discussion to the particular Resolution before the House. Deputies should on these Resolutions abstain from making purely political speeches.

Hear, hear.

One of the reasons, we were told, why this Budget was a good Budget and why this taxation would not, in fact, impose any great burden upon the poor was that the cost of living had declined and was continuing to decline. That statement was made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, presumably in defence of the imposition of a burden of this kind upon the community. I am rather amazed at a statement of that kind from the Minister for Industry and Commerce, whose Department is responsible for the compilation of the cost-of-living index figure. The Minister, in a sweeping statement a few days ago, alleged that the cost of living was declining. That, apparently, was the reason why the community could bear a tax upon sugar as proposed in this Budget. If we look at the cost-of-living index figures and, for argument's sake, assume that these give a true indication of the fluctuations in price movements, we find that the position is entirely different from that indicated by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in justification of the tax upon sugar. If we look at the index figure for mid-February, 1933, we find that it was 151, the figure for July, 1914, being taken as 100. In mid-February, 1934, we find that the index figure was 152. In February, 1935, the index figure was 153, so that the cost-of-living index figure is now one point higher than it was in February of last year, and two points higher than it was in February, 1933. The figure for February, 1935, is the last ascertained official figure. It was, therefore, with the last ascertained official figure before him that the Minister for Industry and Commerce told the country that the cost of living was declining, when, on the figures officially published by his own Department, the cost of living is increasing. One can get some picture of the desperate straits to which the Executive Council are reduced to explain that the Budget will not impose a burden on the people when we get the Minister for Industry and Commerce challenging the accuracy and the implications of the figure compiled by his own Department.

An effort has been made, mainly by Deputy Dillon, to suggest that he and his Party are the apostles of non-taxed sugar for the poor. That rôle is obviously one that does not suit Deputy Dillon when one remembers that his own Party imposed taxes upon sugar. As a matter of fact, Deputy Dillon was much more concerned with endeavouring to make points against the Labour Party than he was with resisting the imposition of a tax upon sugar. Logically, the place for Deputy Dillon and his Party in the division on this Resolution is in the same lobby with the Government Party, because both of them have the reputation of imposing a tax upon sugar. Deputy Dillon's attitude last night is quite inconsistent with the record of his Party. Deputy Dillon's Party taxed sugar. Now, we have a proposal from the present Government to tax sugar. People with that outlook on this question ought to find a common place in the division lobby. I am opposed to the taxation of sugar, and I am prepared to vote against the taxation of sugar.

I can do so with a much freer conscience than Deputy O'Sullivan can.

I have a free conscience on the matter.

Only because it is an elastic conscience. If the Deputy's conscience——

This is not a suitable place for examining the Deputy's conscience.

The Deputy does not want to discuss the Resolution.

It is difficult to examine an elastic conscience. So far as the Labour Party are concerned, they propose to vote against the tax upon sugar. We may have many strange friends in the division lobby, but I suppose we have no monopoly of the lobby. So far as the community are concerned, they will be perfectly clear as to the Labour Party's attitude in this House. Not even the strange combination we are seeing nowadays will fool the public in that respect. As everybody can see, this whole Budget has produced a strange unification of forces——

We are not discussing the whole Budget; there is only one Resolution before the House.

What I have said might be said in respect of the tax upon sugar if I confined myself to that narrow front. We have an attack on the Labour Party by the President because we dare to suggest that there should not be a tax upon sugar. We have an attack on the Labour Party by Deputy Dillon and, to constitute a trio, the Irish Times comes along to attack the Labour Party. I can say to the Minister for Finance that it must be an extraordinary Budget that has produced a combination of such forces as the President of the Executive Council, Deputy Dillon and the Irish Times for the purpose of attacking the Labour Party.

Deputy "Wide-awake" is not here now.

I suggested to the Minister last night, and I do so again to-day, that he should consent to drop the tax upon foodstuffs in this Budget. The imposition of these taxes will impose burdens upon persons who are ill-equipped to bear them, and the year 1935, in view of what we know of the general economic position, is not the time for the imposition of fresh taxation upon foodstuffs. As I said on the general Budget Resolution, the Budget of last year reduced taxation in respect of incomes and in respect of foodstuffs. This year we are to have an imposition of taxation on foodstuffs, as indicated by the tax upon sugar, but we are to have no reimposition of the increased taxation in respect of income. That reveals that the Government have now a settled policy of taxing foodstuffs consumed by the vast bulk of the people, while avoiding those other sources of taxation which would place burdens on those persons most capable of bearing them. I suggest to the Minister that he ought not to insist upon these unwise taxes, that he ought to consent to drop the taxes upon foodstuffs and recast his Budget. In any proposals he makes for placing burdens on the backs of the people most capable of bearing them, he can be assured of the support of the Labour Party. But he can be assured that the Labour Party will oppose any proposal for the imposition of taxation on the foodstuffs of the people.

In the long rigmarole of Deputy Norton on the subject of the sugar tax there was only one statement of the slightest interest, and that was that there were abundant sources of alternative taxation which the Government were neglecting to tap. It is the obvious duty of the leader of the so-called Labour Party to disclose these sources, if such sources exist. Why does he keep them such a dark and deep secret? It would be a piece of information of enormous value to every Party, and to every Deputy, and to the country to have such sources of taxation disclosed. It has been indicated authoritatively that income tax has reached saturation. If that is untrue, and if there are grounds for disputing that statement, it is up to those in possession of the facts to bring them forward. Deputy Norton cannot really be heard to say that the policy for which he is so largely responsible has brought the country to the pass where all this taxation is needed and, at the same time, that he is opposed to tapping the only visible sources of revenue. He cannot be heard to say that unless, at the same time, he will disclose the invisible sources which he maintains exist. He and his colleagues are neglecting an obvious duty to the House and to the country in criticising this Budget when they fail to indicate what their alternative proposals are.

Our position is entirely different. Deputy Norton has entered into a great many irrelevancies, and I do not propose to follow him any further than is absolutely necessary. He suggested that members of this Party were debarred by their past record from raising any objection to a tax on sugar, not merely to the tax on sugar, but to the whole bundle of taxes that this Government is asking us to accept. That seems to me to be a fairly shameless proceeding on the part of a Deputy who has not shrunk in the past from taking a line of policy entirely inconsistent with his own record on the subject of the Public Safety Act. It seems fairly shameless on his part to suggest that we are bound by the record of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party when in office, even assuming that that record was such as to be inconsistent with the criticism we are at present offering. The United Ireland Party is a new Party. It contains elements that were never in the Cumann na nGaedheal Party.

What is the title of it, United Ireland?

That is why there are so many splits.

The elements that were not in the Cumann na nGaedheal Party would presumably have been in it long before, if they had been in agreement with absolutely everything that the Cumann na nGaedheal Government did. There is no reason why we should be held to every jot and title of Cumann na nGaedheal policy, when they were in office. As a matter of fact, can it be seriously argued that the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, with all the difficulties they were faced with, all the difficulties created by the genuine sabotage and revolutionary procedure of their opponents, ever taxed the food of the plain people, as the phrase goes, to an extent comparable with what has been done by the present Government? Deputy Dillon gave figures last night of the extraordinary discrepancy between the price of sugar in this country and elsewhere, and sugar does not stand alone. We are discussing the Sugar Resolution, but it is present to the mind of all that this impost is only one of many on the necessaries of life. We are not responsible to any extent for the policy which has brought about the need for all this taxation. We are not responsible for the policy which has brought very near to run the main source of wealth in this country. Deputies opposite are, and the Labour Party conspicuously, and consequently there is no one better entitled than we are to complain of, and to vote against the imposts on the necessaries of life that are being brought in by the present Government.

Unfortunately it seems to be a characteristic of the Labour Party here, as it is of the Labour Party in England, that they will produce a highly critical situation by the folly of their policy and then run away from it. I certainly have a higher opinion of the courage and the honesty of the Government than I have of the courage and honesty of the Labour Party. At any rate, the Government are making some attempt to face the results of their own policy, instead of going the road Deputy Norton would like them to go, and leaving their Budget unbalanced.

Last night Deputy Norton actually advocated that they should leave their Budget unbalanced on speculation, in the vague hope that income tax or some other tax would bring in more than the experts advised it would bring in; that they should leave their Budget unbalanced rather than impose the taxation which has been made necessary by their policy. I think that line of argument is thoroughly discreditable, and, if it were accepted by the Government, it could only lead this country more rapidly to disaster than it is already going. We have no hesitation at all in opposing this Resolution and the fact that the Labour Party, on this particular Resolution is going into the same lobby with us, may be an uncongenial circumstance of the situation, but it certainly is not sufficient to deter us from doing our duty. We are conscious of the fact, at any rate, that to vote just against one or two of the many imposts that are being proposed by the Government and, at the same time, to support the general scheme, intention and character of the Budget, is to make a very feeble pretence of doing one's duty by the poorer classes in this country.

Deputy Norton must have given some thought to the speech he began last night and that he resumed this morning. It was obvious to anyone acquainted with Deputy Norton's usual fluency on any matter on which he speaks that he found himself in very great difficulty. For the first time he found himself in difficulty, as can be gauged from the fact that he found himself floundering and was called to order no less than eight times by the Chair.

And protected from interruption 28 times.

The whole trouble was the tax on sugar. It was very obvious that Deputy Norton did not want to talk about Resolution No. 11 at all. He was anxious to talk about any other subject. He was anxious to talk about 1917, about Deputy Dillon's recent history, about Deputy Mulcahy, about Deputy Donnelly, about the President, about the Irish Times——

What about the sugar Resolution?

What is the Deputy doing now?

I am just pointing out that the Deputy wanted to keep away from the sugar tax. I will tell the Deputy something about the sugar tax in a moment. The Deputy sat down on the announcement that if the President was prepared to adhere to the statement which he made three years ago, as to fitting the burden to the back, he would get all the support which he had got all along the line from the Labour Party, but, he said, the President and the Government must expect that if they attempt to impose duties and taxation on foodstuffs, they will be rigorously opposed by the members of the Labour Party. Is that a fact? Last week, on the Budget, the Labour Party went into the lobby and voted for an increase on flour; for an increase of fourpence per pound on butter and for the additional taxation on tobacco. Last night, Deputy Anthony said that the Labour Party had voted for the Budget and Deputy Corish replied: "We did not; read the Resolution we did vote for." The Resolution which the Party voted for on Tuesday night was Resolution No. 28. I invite Deputy Davin to read the Resolution and to make himself acquainted with what it means.

I know it well.

The Deputy knows it well. Therefore, the Deputy voted for the Resolution with the full knowledge of what it meant. Resolution No. 28 is the Resolution which gives the force of law to every impost in the Budget, including the taxes on tea and sugar. The Deputy said he thoroughly understood what the Resolution meant. I am accepting that and the Deputy, in the full knowledge of what the Resolution meant, voted for the Resolution that gives the force of law to the tax on tea and sugar and all the other items in the Budget. We are clear on that.

And the widows' and orphans' pensions which your Party opposed.

I said on Tuesday night, as a matter of fact, when the Labour Party voted for this Budget —and let me say that the whole eight of them for the first time went into the lobby with Fianna Fáil on this Budget—that the excuse would be the widows' and orphans' pensions.

And several other things.

The Deputy should be leader of the Party opposite.

Let us not talk about the leadership of parties. I would advise the Deputy not to. The Deputy is not going to get away with it by getting on to this old tack that, because there was a tax on sugar when Cumann na nGaedheal was the Government of this country, there is, therefore, nothing to be said to the present Government for introducing it.

I did not say that.

There is such a thing as putting a tax on sugar and increasing the tax on sugar, and the Deputy knows as well as I do that it is not a farthing a pound that has been put on sugar but a penny a pound. That is the point he apparently overlooks. So far as the average family is concerned, there has been a tax imposed on sugar by the present Government amounting to sevenpence a week, where the consumption of sugar is seven pounds. I think that is a fair average and that is the point which the Deputy has overlooked.

Then we are told that the Labour Party always opposed taxation on food. Deputy Norton has tried to contrast the position under the Cumann na nGaedheal Party with the position at present, but contrast the position of the Labour Party now with the position of the Labour Party hitherto. I agree with Deputy Norton that the Labour Party always opposed taxation on food introduced by any Government, but that policy has not been continued, and if there is any change to be marked in any Party in this House, it is to be marked in the policy of the Labour Party. They have departed completely from the policy pursued by the Labour Party for ten or twelve years of opposing, and rightly opposing, any attempt to increase the cost of living on the people and it has been done consistently on every Budget until the present Government came into power.

Those are facts which cannot be got away from, and the Deputies on the Labour Benches—there are three there now, two of whom have been in the Labour Party in the Dáil since it was founded—know that what I say is quite true. Apparently, the position has changed. Deputy Davin need not shake his head. The facts are there— the voting for an increased tax on sugar, a tax of fourpence a pound on butter, and a tax on wheat and on flour, The Deputies know quite well that bread and butter are two of the chief necessaries, so far as the ordinary poor people are concerned, and are, perhaps, if anything, more important than either tea or sugar.

But not relevant to this Resolution.

I quite agree, Sir, and I was admiring your patience, if I may say so, all the morning. The trouble is that if you give one an inch, it usually increases to a foot.

Deputy Dillon got a mile last night.

In deference to your ruling, Sir, I am going to leave this whole matter, unlike Deputy Norton. You will have to reprove me only once. With regard to the actual tax itself, as I said, this imposition in Resolution No. 11 puts us in the position that under the present Government we have an increase of a penny per pound on sugar. Sugar to-day is at least a penny a pound dearer here than in Northern Ireland or across the water. There is, however, another point which I want to put to the Minister. It has been put to me in my own household and by several other housekeepers. I do not know whether all the Deputies here have been told the same thing but they probably have and it has a bearing on the matter. The sweetening qualities of our sugar produced from beet are not as good as those of the ordinary cane sugar that was imported. I do not know anything about that myself. I am giving the statement as it was told to me and not, as I say, by one housekeeper, but by several. I am told that it requires more sugar to get the same results. I can only give here in the House the gist of the statements made to me, but, if that is so, it is another important factor in the situation which adds greatly to the increase in the cost of living.

On this matter, before I sit down, I want to support Deputy Norton in at least one point and it is with regard to the statement made over the wireless by the Minister for Industry and Commerce the other night. We have grown accustomed to statements of this kind from the particular Minister to the effect that the cost of living had been falling and was going still lower; I did not expect that even the Minister for Industry and Commerce, within three or four days of the introduction of this Budget, could tell us that the cost of living was going still lower, but he improved on that and said that the standard of living in this country has improved and is still improving. Anybody who has the slightest knowledge of conditions in this country, and particularly in the rural areas, who says that the standard of living is improving cannot have very much regard for the truth.

I am opposed to this tax on sugar for a reason not yet mentioned by any speaker. I am opposed to it because we are committed to the production of our own sugar, and we cannot produce that sugar at a commercial price by the machinery set up by the Government, which, I hold, was absolutely necessary once the policy of producing our own sugar was adopted. Our Government is keeping up the price of sugar to cover the costs of production, and so on. Our costs of production are very high. We have committed the country to a large capital expenditure in order to manufacture all our sugar. Even though we may have about one-fifth more capital expenditure to undertake, and machinery to set up in the case of another factory, we are practically doing the whole job ourselves at a very high cost. The people are taxed in an unseen manner to pay for the sugar that we are producing here, but I hold that that unseen tax is justifiable, because the benefits of that tax are scattered all over the community. I entirely disagree with the statement made by the Minister for Finance in his Budget speech that the Exchequer should look to a perpetual revenue of between £8,000 and £9,000 from sugar. The Minister was justified in looking to a revenue from sugar in past years. Last year the revenue from sugar is stated by the Minister to have been £1,155,000. I take it that the larger portion of that came from the Customs end. When our own supply of sugar was exhausted there had to be imports. Naturally and quite rightly, the Government kept the price of sugar at a uniform rate throughout the year, and the Exchequer was the beneficiary to the extent of a pretty large revenue from imported sugar. As we got nearer to supplying our own requirements that disappeared, and I submit to the Minister that when framing his policy he should bear in mind that the revenue from sugar must be a diminishing quantity. I quoted figures here already in regard to the cost of production, and there is no need to quote them again. If we were to have a Budget debate on every item here we would never get through. Another aspect of the matter is that I am not satisfied—and I should like to hear the Minister on the point—that the product of this tax will be £175,000. At a farthing in the pound I calculate the revenue from 100,000 tons of sugar at £240,000.

A serious objection has been raised to the taxation on food. I do not agree with that objection at all. It is as natural to tax what people eat as it is to tax the beds they lie on and the blankets they put over them. One is as necessary as the other, and there is no more inconsistency in supporting one than in supporting the other. This is an agricultural country, and if agriculture is going to be taxed to help the industrial population that must cut both ways. The Deputy who will support a tax on industry for the benefit of industry at the expense of agriculture, and will not support a tax on agriculture for the benefit of industry is inconsistent, and his Party is inconsistent. The fact that the previous Government imposed a tax on sugar was referred to here. Well, there was a little sense—not much—in taxing sugar at that time, when you take into consideration the price of sugar now as compared with then. We should, in a debate of this kind, be as reasonable as possible, and when we make a statement we should not conceal any element of fact which will put it in its proper light before the House. If sugar were cheaper a few years ago it was due to the direct subsidy being paid on sugar by the taxpayers. That was an unseen tax on sugar, which was not visible in the ordinary transactions across the counter. That is now gone, and the price of sugar as paid by the consumer includes the whole tax that is on the sugar and the whole help that sugar has got. The previous Government imposed a tax, which, by the way, as a citizen, I was opposed to at the time, even though it was imposed to increase the agricultural grant. It provided money for that purpose on the one hand, and it also saved the Exchequer from paying as large a subsidy to the sugar factory in Carlow.

In regard to the policy disclosed by the Minister, the policy which his Executive Council holds and, apparently, which his Department holds, I would strongly appeal to him and to the Executive Council to reconsider their position in that matter if sugar is to be produced here, and it must be produced here because of our capital expenditure, and the fact that we are committed to the costs given by the Minister. From the figure given by the Minister I computed that 20/8 per cwt. was the cost of production they banked on in putting through the Sugar Act, but since then the factories had to agree to a higher price than was then visualised for beet. The Minister also drew attention to the fact that, for various reasons, the sugar manufacturing costs in the factory were above their anticipations. He said that instead of the product being able to bear 1d. as then anticipated, it is only bearing ¼d. Working on that assumption the cost of sugar is now in the neighbourhood not of 20/8 but of about 27/- or 28/-. That cost of producing sugar in this country, combined with the necessity for the production of the native product, makes it clear that sugar cannot be a revenue producing article in the future. In a general policy, it is a small thing whether we do or do not vote for this tax, but I would appeal to the Minister to take the longer view. When we get to the stage that we are producing all our sugar he need bank on no revenue from it, except what he will get from customs duty, and he will find that that will be the sum of his national policy.

When speaking to another Resolution, I think last night, the Minister referred to certain Deputies and, amongst others, to one Deputy in this part of the House who owned a racehorse. He might have mentioned that a similar state of affairs exists in relation to his side of the House, but, of course, that is nothing.

But they paid their annuities.

I am not on the question of annuities at the moment. The Minister must be familiar with racing and, being familiar with racing, doubtless he knows something about handicapping—and he runs true to form occasionally. He has been attempting to frame a handicap for different sections of the populace during the last couple of months and he came to the conclusion eventually that the heavyweights, represented by a certain section of this House, otherwise income-tax payers and other people situated in a similar position, could not bear any more, and he said:

"We have been running this race for the last couple of years and Deputy Norton and the Party he represents have got away with it. We cannot continue in the way in which we have been going. We will have to handicap the lightweights and bring them together somehow and make the race a fair race. Trainer Norton——"

I am not using that phrase in any disrespectful way

"——has been using undue influence on me as a handicapper for the last two or three years and the public are beginning to blame me. I shall have to try to straighten things out a bit and, though I will have in a sense to declare myself an inefficient handicapper before the public, inasmuch as I have to go back on previous arrangements, nevertheless I have got to do it."

He did not take anything more off the heavyweights, because he could not in justice do that, but at any rate he did not put any more burdens on them, and he proceeded to tax the lightweights to a certain extent. Immediately we have the trainers and the sprinters, the Nortons and so on, up in arms against the handicapper. The injustice of it! They forget that they themselves have been in a manner responsible.

What surprises me most about the handicapper is this, that he should have selected this one item we are now discussing, sugar, because if there was one thing that I thought he would have kept away from for ever it was sugar. If any reliance, whatsoever, can be placed on the statements of prominent public men, and particularly on the statements of Fianna Fáil Deputies and Ministers opposite, one of their chief points was that any attempt to put a tax on sugar was repugnant. I do not think the word repugnant is strong enough, if we look back on the speeches that were made. The thought of taxing sugar was utterly out of the question with Deputies opposite at one time. Even if you mentioned tea there would be some sense in that, but to tax sugar, the staple necessity of the people, the commodity that enters into almost everything that we consume, was entirely out of the question. It was actually computed by certain of our Ministers at one time what the consumption of sugar meant to a poor family. It varied from 1/6 to 2/6. To think of continuing a tax like that was then repugnant to the Ministers. Fianna Fáil used to be in a jubilant mood after they came into office. They were then enjoying the sweets of office, but apparently this is a bitter sweet. There does not appear to be much sweetness in the expressions of the Government Party since this Budget was introduced.

Colleagues of the Minister have told us that the cost of living has gone down. I am peculiarly interested in that. I do not believe much in statistics. I have always held that you can prove almost anything by statistics. The Minister quoted statistics and Deputy Norton said to-day that the same statistics can be made prove that the cost of living has gone up. Either the Minister or Deputy Norton must be wrong. I am, however, inclined to agree that Deputy Norton is right. The populace in this country do not care two straws about the Minister's or Deputy Norton's statistics. All they care about is the price of commodities and they are definitely of the opinion that the cost of living has gone up. No statistics will convince them otherwise than that the cost of living has definitely gone up. In fact, it is so high in comparison with their capacity to bear it that these taxes coming now are all the more repugnant. I would not agree with the last speaker, Deputy Belton, although we agree on many things, that a tax on food in certain circumstances might be justified. I do not agree with a tax on food.

Except on butter.

You do not agree with any tax—no protection?

If any Deputy here approaches the position of a free trader, it is I, and I would require a great deal of convincing before I would vote for any particular tax. I must be convinced that any tax, whether on food or any other necessity of the people, is not going to place an undue burden on a large section of the people before I would vote for it.

If you are a free trader, why did you vote for the tax on butter?

There is not a direct tax on butter. There is no tax that I could stop on butter.

But the Deputy voted for it.

The tax on butter is not in the same relation as the tax on sugar. When we come to the butter tax I will be able to defend—I will try to—any action I took on the matter, or will take.

If sugar were produced in Limerick it would make all the difference.

We have a sweet factory in Limerick, for which the Minister is responsible. I do not know whether it is a profit-bearing institution or not. This new tax will not help it. It may be that this tax will make the concern a losing concern, and it may be an additional burden on the State. The same applies to many other factories. The Minister ought to be the last person to suggest a tax on sugar, to suggest this bolstering up of an industry to manufacture sugar in this country. He referred explicitly to the Carlow factory as a white elephant. In addition to the Carlow elephant we have now a number of baby elephants——

The tax proposed is a revenue tax, not a tax for the support of any factory or industry.

That makes the position worse. I am glad of your assistance, Sir. Have we now got to the position that, in order to run the country, the policy of Fianna Fáil is definitely that they have to impose a revenue tax which is to be applied to the staple necessities of the poorer people? If that is the position, then we have come to a sorry pass. This is not to help industry, this is a revenue tax. I could not find words sufficiently strong——

Then why waste time?

——to condemn the attitude of the Ministry. When the capacity of the people to bear liabilities is reduced to vanishing point, when the wages of labourers, on whom this tax will fall most heavily, particularly the labourers in the rural districts, are lower than they have been at any time within the last seven or eight years, when it has been found necessary by the Government to come to the assistance of these people in various ways—at such a time to add this extra imposition on these unfortunate people is an injustice. If there is no other method of deriving revenue to run the State than by putting a tax such as this on the staple necessities of the poorer people, then in God's name let us cut our expenditure, do without something that we can afford to do without, rather than inflict such a burden on a poor, defenceless section of the community.

I did not intend to take part in this debate at all but, as it has been mentioned so frequently by Deputies of the Opposition that the rank and file of this Party were sadly silent as the result of the Budget, I suppose it would be just as well if one of the rank and file did say a word or two even on the sugar tax. Deputy MacDermot made a rather interesting statement this morning. He said the Opposition had no responsibility whatever, for the policy of the Government but that the Labour Party had a lot of responsibility for the policy of the Government which has brought about a state of affairs under which sugar must be taxed in this country. Neither the Opposition nor the Labour Party has any responsibility whatever for the policy of the Government. There was a general election fought on that issue. When Deputies make statements of that kind they ought to be sure that they are correct. There is nobody directly responsible for the policy of the Government except Deputies who sit here on the Fianna Fáil benches. We went to the country and got a definite, clear-cut majority over every Party in this House, and the rank and file of this Party is standing wholeheartedly and solidly behind the Executive Council on the sugar tax and every other tax in this Budget. That is a sufficiently clear-cut statement.

A very clear statement.

We accept that.

Deputy MacDermot said the Opposition had no responsibility whatever for the state of affairs that brought about the tax on sugar. I do not think that Deputy Bennett would agree with that. The activities of Deputy Bennett have cost the State a lot of money. He has been gambolling and frisking about the Golden Vale with a number of other gentlemen.

On sugar.

Creating expense.

That is not relevant to the debate.

I know, but——

If it is not relevant, it may not be debated.

We have got to find all this money to protect the public against the activities of irresponsible men such as they.

That is not relevant.

Deputy Morrissey made a certain statement here this morning, and it is strange that there should be agreement between Deputy Morrissey and Deputy Davin, in connection with the broadcast speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Deputy Davin said here, referring to the Minister's statement, that he was one of the greatest political bluffers in the country. This sugar tax has produced some wonderful combinations.

It is sweetening up the relations.

It has produced some marvellous combinations. Deputy Morrissey stated that the standard of living had gone down. My reply to that is that he should go back to his own constituency, go down to Thurles and ask the people there are they better off now than they were before this Government came into office.

He will get an interesting answer.

There are work and wages there now.

For how many weeks?

For as many weeks as the factory is working.

Deputy Donnelly must be allowed to make his own speech.

We were told that we could not defend this Budget, but we have a heaven-sent opportunity. Two better tests could not be given, particularly in regard to the sugar tax, than the two elections that are pending. We are told that sugar and tea are the staple food of the people in Connemara, that they consume them night, noon and morning. That is one sample of a constituency. We are going there in three or four weeks and we shall have to defend the Budget and the sugar tax there. At the same time we shall have to go out amongst the elite of County Dublin to defend the sugar tax and the Budget. I venture to say that we shall not come back in any weaker position as a result of the Budget, the sugar tax or any of our activities since we became the Government. I was challenged by my colleague in the representation of Offaly to go down there and try to defend this Budget and this sugar tax. I certainly shall go to the constituency and defend and stand over every line of the Budget. So can every member of the Fianna Fáil Party go to the constituency he represents.

There is no tax imposed in this Budget that we will not stand over and here is my main reason for saying so. With all due respect to every Deputy in this House—Deputy MacDermot, Deputy Mulcahy, Deputy Davin or Deputy Norton—I have far more confidence in the collective ability of the Executive Council, taking everything into consideration, to draft a Budget that I consider better in the interests of the country than any individual Deputy in the House could himself conceive. They have as great an interest in the country as any Deputy and it is because we, of the rank and file of the Fianna Fáil Party, place absolute confidence in the Executive Council that we are whole-heartedly supporting the Budget and that we are going to the country to defend it. When the by-elections are over—I do not want to carry on in this strain for very long; we shall have other opportunities of dealing with the matter— the Opposition will have got their answer as they got it on every other occasion.

I do not want unduly to stress our loyalty to the Executive Council. There are Deputies in this Party, as in every other Party, who do not like a tax on certain commodities but the money has got to be found and at a time like this when a big effort is being made by the Executive Council to build up the State industrially, and to see that a proper balance is observed as between every section of the community, that money must be found and we are behind the Executive Council in finding it.

There is just one point that is germane to this important subject about which there has been so much talk and so much heat. It is quite clear that the object of this tax is to get revenue, but the Minister has given us no idea of the amount of revenue he proposes to get for the coming year or for any full year from this tax. He told us that last year he got £15,000 more than he expected. All the House knows is that last year the Minister by this tax got a sum—X plus £15,000. It has been put to the Minister already that during the calendar year the additional tax put on sugar cost the people £735,000. Now with the new tax extending over part of the year, he is going to get an additional £175,000., but he does not tell us what the tax is going to bring him for a full year. I should like the Minister to tell us what he got last year and what he expects to get this year by this tax on sugar. Further an attempt has been made to obscure the position by the statements we heard from Deputy Norton last night. According to Deputy Norton, Cumann na nGaedheal put a heavy tax on tea and sugar. A picture was painted here by Deputy Norton of the appalling burden put upon the people in the matter of tea and sugar by the old Cumann na nGaedheal Government in order to make them feel that nothing very serious was happening them now.

It is important then, to realise what the history of tea and sugar has been. For the year ended 31st March, 1924, the total taxes on tea brought in £641,362 to the Exchequer, and the total taxes on sugar brought in to the Exchequer £1,881,533. In the following year, the tax on tea brought in £432,137 and the tax on sugar brought in £1,881,604. So that, in the years 1924-25 there was a substantial revenue from both tea and sugar. In 1924 the total revenue from tea and sugar combined was over £2,500,000. In the year ended March, 1931—the second last year before the Cumann na nGaedheal Government went out of office—the yield from tea was nothing because it had been wiped out completely from some time in 1925 or 1926, and the yield from sugar was £932,442.

That is not true.

Will the Minister look up his facts? I am now talking of the year ended 31st March, 1931.

Oh, I see. I beg your pardon.

I am saying that in the second last year before the Cumann na nGaedheal Government went out of office the total yield from sugar was £932,442. So that, the combined taxes on tea and sugar had, in the space of these seven years, been reduced from £2,500,000 to £900,000. At the end of 1931, an additional tax was put on sugar.

What was the yield in 1932?

In the year ended 31st March, 1931, the revenue was——

I am asking about the yield for 1932.

I am going to tell the Minister what it was in 1932. I am telling the Minister now that in 1931, the second last year before the Cumann na nGaedheal Government left office, the tax taken from the people on tea and sugar combined was over £932,000. and that it was reduced to that figure from £2,500,000 in March, 1924. In the last year of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, there was no burden on the people in respect of tea and the yield from sugar was £1,331,000.

That is the customs.

We are not discussing customs at the moment.

We are trying to get at the facts.

What was the excise?

I shall try to tell the Minister that. I make it out £40,889.

What was the total of the two taxes?

I think I am able to add that up. It was £1,371,889.

Is that figure correct?

It is £400,000 instead of £40,000.

I am not able to make the sums quoted—the tax on refined and unrefined sugar of £1,331,012 and the excise tax £40,889 —add up to anything more than about £1,371,891. The position then was that the tax on sugar, both refined and unrefined, and on tea, had been reduced by the Cumann na nGaedheal Administration in eight years from £2,500,000 to £1,371,000. Let us discuss the additional burdens that are being placed by the Fianna Fáil Party on the people, in respect of the consumption of tea and sugar, for what they are in fact, and for what the Minister expects to get from them in the year. Then, let us realise that, as a background to that, there is the impoverished condition to which the people have been reduced and there is the enormous increase in taxes in other directions that the Minister has already imposed on the people during his previous years of office, and the additional taxes he has now put on every blessed thing he can lay his hands on which every man and woman in the country will have to use.

I am glad that my colleague, Deputy Donnelly, has plucked up the necessary courage—although I do not doubt his courage in this and other matters—to say that he is prepared to defend, here and elsewhere, the attitude of the Cabinet in imposing a tax on sugar and other necessary commodities at the same time that the Government is forcing down the wages of the workers in that constituency and levelling down the income of the small farmers and the workless people in the country. I should like to see Deputy Donnelly take the first opportunity of going into the South Offaly area—if possible, to Kinnity—where the Government have, in recent times, fixed the wage of 22/- a week for the forestry workers engaged by the Land Commission in that area. I should like to hear Deputy Donnelly at a public meeting, and with the Press present, tell all these workers how he can justify imposing a tax on tea, sugar, bread and other necessaries, at the same time that their wages are being brought down by about 15 per cent.

That is the complaint this Party is making in regard to this particular Resolution and other similar Resolutions that are down for discussion here to-day. We protest and object, and we are prepared to take all the consequences which may come to us as a result of our attitude, because the Government has taken advantage of a time when the incomes of workers, small farmers and workless are being cut down, to put taxes on the necessaries of life when there are other and better sources from which the money can be found. Deputy Donnelly has been talking about the consequences of the coming elections and there were references to County Dublin. He did not say to the people who live in the County Dublin on unearned incomes: "We have saved you from any further income tax in the Budget we are now introducing." I am sure that will be a great point to make to all the people in the County Dublin who live on unearned incomes and whose unearned incomes are not being touched by this Budget.

I am sure we all regret the absence, owing to a family bereavement, of Deputy Hugo Flinn. In the House here, the other night, Deputy Flinn, under cover of a general Resolution, made another "no income tax" speech—and Deputy McGilligan agreed with him. In that speech Deputy Flinn endeavoured to persuade the members of the House, and through it, those who might hear his voice outside, that all income tax is passed on to the consumer. I should like to hear Deputy Professor O'Sullivan, who is a greater expert in matters of this kind that I am——

I should like to know if Deputy O'Sullivan accepts that?

The Chair would not hear Deputy Davin's or Deputy O'Sullivan's views on that matter in this Resolution.

Deputy Morrissey in joining in the general charge made against members of the Labour Party here to-day stated that he could not understand why we voted for the general financial Resolution 28 a couple of nights ago. Deputy Morrissey as well as yourself, Sir, and every intelligent Deputy in this House knows perfectly well that Resolution 28 involves the whole policy financially and politically of the Government for the year concerned. Deputy O'Sullivan suggests that the members of the Labour Party refused to provide money for these public services during the financial year including the money to be raised by the Resolution under discussion. He knows perfectly well that if we were to defeat the Government in that we would defeat the Government that is finding millions of money over and above what their predecessors found for social services including provision for widows and orphans and increased pensions for the aged poor.

I do not want to elaborate that point because I know perfectly well that Deputy Morrissey understands that, as well as Deputy Dillon and the Opposition Front Bench speakers who have spoken on this Resolution and criticised us, after their inspiration by the Irish Times naturally, because we refused to vote against the general resolution and because by doing so we refused to put out the Government. Would they tell us whether if they were in office they would put a tax on sugar or whether they would maintain social services as at present existing and if so from what source they would provide the money to carry on the present social services? I hope that is a very pertinent question to ask Deputy J.M. O'Sullivan to answer when he speaks on this debate as I am sure he will. There is a curious combination attacking the members of the Labour Party in connection with this Budget. President de Valera came here the other night and lectured the Labour Party at length——

Because we did, as we had a perfect right to do, consistently oppose the taxation of the necessaries of life. When he was speaking President de Valera reminded me of a school teacher who had a certain number of small boys under his care.

He seemed to think that the Deputies on these benches were some of the school boys whom he has been in the habit of lecturing—

Another of the new alliances.

President de Valera perhaps wandered away from the real object and from the Budget. He had in company with him in the same kind of criticism Deputy Dillon who has now come to be recognised as nothing more than an insolent schoolboy. Both of them joined in attacking members of this Party because we are opposed to the taxation of food. Both of them, Sir, and it is something that their followers should remember, were in agreement that there should be no increase in income tax. President de Valera refrained from making the case and the Minister did not make the case for no further increase in income tax. They gave no figures to support such a case. They left the case to be made by Deputy McGilligan. But up to the present no case has been made by President de Valera supported by facts and figures at any rate to show that income tax payers could not bear any further burden. I admit that if Deputy McGilligan quoted correct figures he made a convincing case to those who shared his point of view. He made a very convincing case which was not even attempted to be made by the people who have the responsibility for making it.

A convincing case on the income tax question?

Yes, if the figures he gave were correct.

The discussion is going on to the general Resolution, while this is on a specific Resolution.

Very well, Sir, to come back to the Resolution, Deputy Donnelly in his defence of it used words that the standard of living has gone up. We know that taxes have been imposed. Will Deputy Donnelly get any argument on figures to support the contention that the standard of living has gone up? The standard of living has gone up, we are told, notwithstanding the fact that he knows perfectly well that even in his own constituency the price of bread has been increased since these Budget Resolutions came into operation. The Deputy listened to Deputy Norton quoting official figures to prove that the cost of living, even on Departmental statistics, has gone up since this Government has come into office. Yet Deputy Donnelly has the audacity to state that the standard of living has gone up, while actually wages have been forced down by the Land Commission.

The home official report was that things were never better.

The wages of forestry workers have been reduced from 28/- to 22/- a week and these same people are invited to accept the statement made by Deputy Donnelly that the standard of living has gone up while this Budget is increasing the cost of food. I hope the Deputy will take advantage of the first opportunity in the House to explain that.

The people have got work that they did not have then. They are employed now.

There was a question raised in this House dealing with the unemployed in 1932. Speaking in the debate on the needs of the unemployed in this House on the 29th April, 1932, as reported in column 906 of Volume 41, President de Valera, after the Fianna Fáil Government had been in office three months, said:

"I never regarded freedom as an end in itself, but if I were asked what statement of Irish policy was most in accord with my view as to what human beings should struggle for, I would stand side by side with James Connolly."

Hear, hear.

Is there any man who had any close association with the late James Connolly—and one of the things I never like to do is to interpret the wishes of the dead—who would say that if James Connolly were alive to-day he would vote for a Budget imposing taxation on food when as everybody knows the necessary money could be found elsewhere?

Why did the Deputy vote for the Budget?

Deputy wide-awake must have been asleep when that was explained.

Explained! God help us.

President de Valera as reported in column 909 of the same Volume speaking in regard to the burdens of taxation said:—

"Our purpose as a Government is to see that these burdens rest heaviest on the shoulders of people who are best able to bear them and rest lightest on the shoulders of those least able to bear them."

Will the Minister for Finance say whether this Budget represents his interpretation of these words? President de Valera during that discussion spoke of the reference made by a member of the Opposition to the policy of the hair shirt. That was the phrase which was coined by a Deputy who was not of the same political faith as Deputy Donnelly. Dealing with that particular aspect of the criticism at that time the President is reported in the same Volume as having said.

"Every member of the community has to bear his part of the burden. Members on the Opposite Benches said that I went in for a hair shirt policy. My answer was that theirs was the silk shirt policy for some and the hair shirt policy for others. If there are to be hair shirts at all it will be hair shirts all round."

He says there that every member of the community has to bear his part of the burden. See how inconsistent that is with the previous sentence.

Who is the Deputy quoting?

I am quoting from the Debates of the 29th April, 1932, column 909, and the speaker is President de Valera. The Deputy has been present in this House during most of the discussion on the Budget and he has not so far seen any hair shirt. Perhaps the Minister for Finance, who is a colleague of his in the representation of the County Dublin, will explain why the policy advocated by President de Valera on that particular occasion is not contained in the proposals in this Budget.

The Deputy seems to be under the impression that he is discussing the proposals in the Budget. He is, or should be, discussing the Resolution dealing with sugar.

I am sorry. I have no intention of disputing your ruling or ignoring your wishes in this matter. The cost of living has gone up, is going up, and is bound to go up further as a result of the coming into operation of a Resolution of this kind. I am not a revolutionary individual. I have been always accused in Labour Party circles of being rather conservative and imperialistic, I believe, by some people. I try to be a realist. I have always advocated inside the Labour Party, and on behalf of the Labour Party outside in public, that we should never stand for anything in the shape of a policy which we could not put into operation if we ever come into office. I do not believe in making promises from Labour platforms in connection with our political programme which, if we had the responsibility, we could not put into operation. The coming into operation of the sugar Resolution is going to put up the cost of living of the workers, and I warn the Minister for Finance—and it is a friendly warning——

——time will tell whether I am a false prophet or not—that the increases in the prices of the necessaries of life, which are bound to follow the coming into operation of this and other Resolutions of the same kind, are, in my opinion, going to lead to demands from organised workers for increased wages in many industries at a later stage, and, possibly, if these demands are not conceded, will lead to strikes and labour trouble. I want to avoid that, and I warn the Minister that he is making these things possible by the policy contained in this and other similar Resolutions.

Will there be a strike in Kinnity?

The Deputy knows well that the number of people looking for work in Kinnity, and other areas of the same kind, makes it impossible for such a thing to happen. He knows well that I have not indicated that such a thing should take place there. That is no reason why the people in Kinnity or anywhere else should accept any starvation wage offered to them—a wage lower than was ever attempted to be put into operation by the people opposite when sitting on these benches.

I should like Deputy Brady to tell me where any forestry scheme has been carried out in the 12 midland counties at a wage such as that now in operation in Kinnity. He has no right to say it is nonsense unless he can prove that what I said is nonsense. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands knows more about the wages paid to the workers in his Department than Deputy Brady. When I questioned the Parliamentary Secretary on that about two weeks ago he could not name any other place where such a low wage was put into operation.

Mr. Brady

There was never more than £1 a week paid by the Land Commission in Donegal under Cumann na nGaedheal.

What is being paid now?

Mr. Brady

The same.

That is interesting. In the light of declarations of the kind I have just read, made by the President on 29th April, 1932, I would expect that something better would be done for them than was done by those gentlemen over there.

Does sugar cane come under forestry? Is that how this comes in?

Deputy MacDermot, who is at present the leader and genius of the disorganised Opposition, talked about the sources from which money might be made available if the resolution did not bring in the necessary revenue. Deputy MacDermot, like Deputies McGilligan and Dillon, seems to think that there is no other source from which the small amount required under the resolution could be found. Deputy MacDermot probably was absent from the House; but we have indicated many other sources from which the money, and possibly more money than will be got under this resolution, could be found. We have indicated several other sources from which the money could be found from a certain class of people without having the same penal or punitive effect as a resolution of this kind in the case of the poorest of the poor.

Indicate them again.

I am not going to waste the time of the House in repeating them for the information of Deputy MacDermot. He is supposed to be the leader of the Opposition in the absence of Deputy Cosgrave, and if he was absent from the House he should have been told these things by somebody who was present. I am not going to waste the time of the House in repeating them.

You have wasted enough of it already, and if you waste more of it, it will not make much difference.

Ginger it up.

I hope when Deputy wide-awake gets his official informant to write again to the papers concerning the activities of the Labour Party he will give us more information than he has given us now.

I consider that is a dishonourable act on the part of Deputy Davin. I told him yesterday, and he accepted my word——

Is this a point of order?

He is telling a deliberate untruth. Yesterday, in the course of conversation, I told him that I knew nothing about the writer of that letter. He has told a deliberate untruth.

Deputy Anthony says Deputy Davin told a deliberate untruth. That is an expression that any Deputy in this House is not allowed to use.

If he withdraws that he said, I will withdraw.

I never said a word about Deputy Anthony.

He imputed that I moved the writer of that letter. I know nothing about the writer of the letter in the Irish Independent yesterday. I told him that, and he accepted my word yesterday.

Deputy Davin said certain things referring to Deputy Anthony.

I did not.

He referred to an official informer. I think that remark should not be used. If Deputy Davin withdraws that, in the first instance, we will proceed towards harmony and order. Will Deputy Davin withdraw it?

That I said he is an official informer?

My official informer.

What is wrong with that?

It is a remark that should not be used with regard to any Deputy.

In the first place, I did not say anything about Deputy Anthony, but in deference to your wishes I will do what you ask.

I withdraw also. The difference between a man and a mouse.

Deputy Anthony is going to vote against the tax on sugar, I presume. He, in company with Deputy MacDermot, Deputy Dillon, and the Irish Times has joined in this sarcastic and abusive criticism of the Labour Party and certain individual members of the Labour Party. They accuse us—and I repeat this for the information of the Deputy who has only come into the House—of having voted for a tax on sugar in previous Resolutions passed by the House. The Resolution which we voted for, having a full knowledge of the meaning and implications of what we were doing, was Resolution No. 28. If we voted against that Resolution, as Deputy Anthony knows perfectly well, because he often voted for a similar Resolution himself with the same meaning, we would be voting to put out the Government upon their whole financial, economic and political policy. We are not prepared to do that and we make no apology for that. We are not going to put out the Government until we find better men to take their place— men who will provide more money for the social services at less expense to the poorest of the poor, who are least able to bear it.

Let us get back to Resolution No. 11.

Do not be calling your self Labour—go over to Fianna Fáil.

We are not prepared to adopt the idiotic suggestion of putting out the Government and refusing to provide for the services for the present financial year without knowing what Government we are going to put in their place. We have a share of responsibility for the expenditure of this Government and we are prepared to take that share of responsibility, and blame, if you like, which falls to us.

It is coming to you all right.

Having a share of responsibility for the Government and the general financial policy proposed we must admit our responsibility for raising money to carry on the public services. We have to take the responsibility of voting for the tax on tobacco and some other taxes. We are going to vote for them because we cannot ask for social services such as widows' and orphans' pensions and not be prepared to pay for them. Let Deputy Anthony, who speaks on behalf of the Blueshirt Party, indicate the type of Government he wants if he is going to refuse to vote for the general Resolutions put forward by the Minister for Finance making provision for the carrying on of the public services in the forthcoming financial year.

I think it ought to be obvious to Deputy Davin that you cannot discuss this Resolution, important though it is, and leave out of account the taxable capacity of the people who have to pay for it. You cannot discuss it without taking into account all the other taxes as well. Deputy Davin complained that he was treated by the President as a schoolboy.

Unconsciously, I am sure.

I am pointing out that the President treated Deputy Davin as a schoolboy. The interesting thing is that it was unconsciously he did it. Having regard to the mind of the President, as we know it, and having regard to the Labour Party, as we know it, I do not see how he could treat Deputy Davin in any other way.

As one of his schoolboys.

That is precisely the point. Knowing the mind of the President, as I say, we know that he would treat the Labour Party as nothing else and would treat Deputy Davin as nothing else than as one of his schoolboys and tan him occasionally. And they returned to be tanned again. It has been stated that the President spat out the Labour Party. He certainly spat out Deputy Davin, anyhow, but Deputy Davin will not stay spat out.

On a point of order, may I ask are we not supposed to be on the Report Stage of the Budget Resolutions? We shall have an opportunity of discussing the Budget and all its ills later on the Finance Bill. I suggest that the Deputy should be advised to say something about the sugar duty.

This is rather a belated interference of the Minister for Finance. It is not the first time this morning that the Minister came to the assistance of his friends in the Labour Party, despite the attacks they are supposed to have made upon him. During many of the speeches we heard helpful remarks from the Minister for Finance to members of the Labour Party that they were not quick enough to take up, although there had been an amount of consultation. Again and again the Minister has intervened, not to defend the Government on the Budget from so-called Labour Party attacks but only to help speakers on the Labour Benches. His intervention emphasised what Deputy Donnelly pointed out, that there is no difference between the combined Parties on the Government Benches. I would point out to Deputy Donnelly that his fifty-fifty argument, plus the occupant of the Chair, does not make him and his Party independent of the Labour Party.

We are here in defiance of any Party.

We accept that.

The Labour Party stand up here with the Fianna Fáil Party in defence of the Budget. They have said a great deal more in defence of this Budget than the Fianna Fáil Party and, by implication, more in defence of this Resolution.

As Deputy McGilligan did.

Watch the clock!

Does the Deputy think he is saving time?

I have been waiting to hear what the Deputy has to say.

Resolution No. 11 is before the House.

This tax in practice has been defended, and courageously defended, by Deputy Donnelly on the plea that you must find money to carry on the Government policy. "Money and cash" was the phrase he used. That is what we heard also from Deputy Davin. The defence of Deputy Donnelly was: "If you want our policy you must pay for it." The Labour Party wants that policy and the answer of Deputy Donnelly is: "Well then you will have to pay for it." There is no use pretending that the Labour Party can get out of its responsibility for the tax on sugar or for any other of the new taxes. It is mere pretence on their part trying to do so. No one who listened to the speech of the leader of the Labour Party will see this. There was some attack in Deputy Davin's speech on this particular matter, but there was none in the speech of Deputy Norton except the announcement that he was going to vote against it. I will give Deputy Davin credit for this: that he attempted at least to attack this Resolution, but his leader certainly did not. This is a Resolution which has been supported definitely and clearly by one of the rank and file of the Government Party. But I will say this that when this Government tax came on it was applauded by the Fianna Fáil Party and I think Deputy Donnelly quite correctly represents their views and those of their allies of the Labour Party in practice though not in act.

Tax after tax has been put upon the people until it has become practically impossible any longer to bear them. There have been increases year after year, not merely in direct taxation but in indirect taxation of various kinds. This is one of them. This tax on sugar hits everybody. Yet it is one of the taxes that have the support of the combined Government Party. Take the breakfast table of any person in this country, be he rich or poor, workman or man without work. Is there a single article on that table that he has not to pay a tax on? He has to pay on his tea, sugar, butter, knives and forks and on the table itself. He has to pay on the rasher that he occasionally gets on a morning. Sugar is one of the most common and one of the most important factors in the food of children. The Minister for Finance apparently cannot understand that, when imposing additional taxes of this kind, such as that on sugar, the thing that ought to be taken into account is the taxes that have already to be met by the people. That is what should be taken into account by those who support the Government. It should be borne in mind that the people have not only to pay these taxes on the necessaries of life but they have to pay taxes on everything they wear, on the table they eat off, on the knives and forks they use—all these matters should be taken into calculation before additional taxes in the shape of imposts on tea and sugar are put on. Nothing is more relevant to this issue than the taxable capacity of the people, and the taxes they are already paying. It is this Government, with the full support of the Labour Party, that is responsible for the policy that has made these taxes necessary, according to the Minister. It is absurd and ridiculous to give general support —I think the words are—to the economic, social and political policy of that Party and then refuse to face the issue. I say this for the Labour Party: that their friends, the Fianna Fáil Party, were against taxation when they were not in office but except for an occasional protest the Labour Party, though not in office, is in favour of taxes. But the Minister has learned that policies are costly. Now he comes here with this particular tax increasing the cost of an article of food that is essential to a large number of people. It is more essential, as the Minister ought to know, to the children of the poor than to any other class of the community, because from sugar they must get the sustenance that cannot reasonably be got by them from any other source. And yet, that is the social policy that is being defended, the general lines of which get unanimous support from the people in all those benches opposite.

All taxation at the moment, with the taxable capacity of the people diminishing year by year and month by month, and with the cost of living rising, is unjustifiable. Despite the statistics that may be quoted by the Minister on the one hand and by Deputy Norton on the other, the ordinary householder knows that the cost of living is rising. With all that, there is no justification for the imposition of any extra taxes, and still less for the increase represented by this tax on sugar and tea. I have no doubt that the colleague of the Minister for Finance—the Minister for Industry and Commerce—who, by his policy, has been responsible for a lot of this indirect taxation, is capable of getting up in this House and proving to us, or at least stating to us with that absolute air of conviction that always characterises his absolute and complete disregard of facts, that this is a contribution to lowering the cost of living. Such a statement as that on his part would be no more ridiculous than other statements of the same kind from him that we have heard in this House.

Deputy Davin is quite right in one respect at all events; that if, by taxes of this kind you send up the cost of living, you are bound to create unrest in the way of demands for higher wages. That is absolutely so. There is no escape from it. I referred to that when speaking on the General Resolution. We are dealing now with the tax on sugar, but the Government has already put heavy taxes on clothes, furniture, butter, bacon and bread. Surely, as a result of that policy the cost of living is bound to go up, and there is bound to be labour discontent. It is bound to react on people who are supposed to be escaping under this Budget, the income tax payers, just as if you make the income tax rate too high it is bound to react on the rest of the community. You cannot increase the general level of taxation in the country and expect that any class will escape from the taxes that you put on. Ultimately, all these taxes will be spread all over the whole community. This tax will directly hit everybody ultimately. I admit that it will be felt more by the poorer classes, but all these taxes are bound to be felt by everybody.

The Deputy's Party did a lot for the poor man when it was in office.

The Deputy deals with the poor man in the sense that I have already explained; that the Government, by its policy, is making every man poor and the poor poorer. We see in this tax, and in all the other taxes imposed by the Government, the policy announced by the President, and quoted by Deputy Davin, of hair shirts for everybody.

And the Deputy's Party took 1/- a week off the old age pensioners.

The Deputy's Party would not do that, but they take it off by administration.

That does not arise on this Resolution.

It was the Deputy's interruption that led me to be slightly irrelevant for the moment. This tax on sugar, according to Deputy Donnelly, is a heaven-sent opportunity. It ought to be a heaven-sent opportunity for the people of the country and for the supporters of the Government in this House, because it enables them to see what the policy of the Government is. It is a heaven-sent opportunity like the blessing in disguise that the farmers got. This is turning out to be the same kind of blessing in disguise so far as all classes of this country are concerned—the working man and the man who has not work. It will be a heaven-sent opportunity for them. These are the nice kind of gifts that we are getting from the Government: this is the heaven of the Fianna Fáil Party for the working classes of this country and for every other class in it.

There was one thing at least that we heard in this debate, and the Deputy was correct when he stated it. It was this: if you want the Government's policy you must pay the price for it, so that any excuse from the Party opposite that they want the policy and are not prepared to pay the price for it is absurd. All these taxes will have to be paid by the community as a whole. They hit everybody. The people who pay income tax need not think that, because the Government is putting this burden on the workers, they are going to escape any more than the workers need think that they would escape if the income-tax rate was increased. All these taxes will go round. This tax on sugar will make the condition of the labouring classes more intolerable. All these taxes on tea, sugar and the rest will create a demand for higher wages, and that must affect the position of the income-tax payer as well as those who have to bear the taxes directly. It is absurd to think that in such a complicated machinery as present-day society, economically so inter-knit and inter-penetrated, that you can hit one particular class by your policy and let every other class escape. You cannot do that, and the Minister is beginning to realise it. In fact it has been said by the President himself.

On that basis there should be no change at all.

I am afraid that Deputy Donnelly does not see the point that I am making, which is this: that the increased taxation in this Budget is due to the policy of the Government and the people who support that policy, as the Deputy himself has said, must be prepared to pay the price. That is the point. There is no escape for the Deputy from that particular dilemma. Deputy Davin likes to be in uncomfortable positions even if he is sometimes expelled from them. No justification has been put forward except one, the general policy of the Government, for the imposition of this tax. Deputy Donnelly nods and he is quite right. That is the one and only justification for this tax on sugar, for the tax on tea, and for the tax on tobacco that got the benediction of the combined Parties opposite. They have combined once more—they are both responsible for this and they boast of it—for the purpose of keeping the Government in power, and, therefore, are responsible for the policy of the Government. Their one and only argument is that if you want the Government's policy you must pay for it. It is useless for Deputy Davin, when he is challenged as to why he supported the General Resolution which included this and the other taxes, to say "Hit me now and the orphan in my arms." That is the excuse that he gave by way of interruption.

Will the Deputy give us his alternative?

The alternative is to get a Government that will not put all these burdens on the people.

With Deputy MacDermot as President.

If the Deputy does not know that the policy which he supports is that of increased taxation, month after month and year after year, on every class of the community, he is not following what is happening in the country.

What would President MacDermot do?

Here is a tax that directly hits everybody in the country. It is a tax which should be avoided if possible, particularly in respect of one class of the community —children. Unless the policy in which the Government are indulging is a sound policy, there is no excuse for this tax. Sugar is already taxed in two ways and for two purposes. In that respect it occupies a rather unique position. The consumer pays more for his sugar because he is supporting a big industry in this country—the beet industry. The children of the rich—if there are any rich in this country—the children of the middle classes and the children of the poor are all contributing by the consumption of sugar to the support of that big industry.

Hear, hear.

They are now asked to bear this other burden. It is a very considerable burden, although Deputy Davin represents it as merely a small amount.

Out of £28,000,000.

The £28,000,000 is made up of these small amounts—the tax on tea, the tax on tobacco, the tax on sugar, and the various Customs and Excise duties exacted by the Government. The consumer of sugar has to contribute to the support of an industry and, in addition, to help to support other industries——

To support the sugar industry.

By indirect levy. Now, he is asked to support other industries. It is quite obvious from Deputy Donnelly's statement that there is no use in appealing to the rank and file of the Fianna Fáil Party. They are solidly behind this tax.

Hear, hear.

"This is a good Budget and we are proud of it." That is the language of Deputy Donnelly.

I should like to remind the House that all Parties are anxious to complete the consideration of these Resolutions to-day. If the business could be expedited, it would not deprive anybody of his right to discuss these matters on the Finance Bill. We have only an hour and a half to deal with the remaining Resolutions.

That is not a matter for me. I am in the hands of the House. I cannot abridge discussion.

I am prepared to let the division be taken without further debate.

So far as our Party is concerned, I am prepared to recommend our members to allow the division to be taken now.

I shall let the question go without reply. The introduction of the Finance Bill and the adjournment of the House for the session depend on getting the Report Stage of the Resolutions disposed of to-day. Formerly, it was not customary to have these long debates on the Report Stage.

Do not start explaining.

I should like to remind the House that there are other Parties here beside the Fine Gael Party. These other Parties have preserved their independence. I never was an cavesdropper and one would require to have remarkably good hearing to follow the delightful conversation that has just taken place between the Minister and Deputy MacDermot.

Deputy MacDermot indicated that he was prepared to recommend his Party to allow the division to be taken now if the House was agreeable.

Here is one who is not agreeable.

I did not take upon myself to make any suggestions to Independent members. I spoke only for our Party.

We are going to maintain our independence.

Deputy Anthony will have an opportunity of discussing the subject of the Resolutions on the Finance Bill.

I had not intended to speak on the sugar Resolution until I heard Deputy Davin.

If objection is taken to the suggestion made by the Parliamentary Secretary, the Chair is powerless.

I make objection, and in that I think I am joined by Independent members who do not belong to my Party. I oppose this tax on sugar for reasons which have been stated by some of the speakers who preceded me this morning. None of the speakers has, I think, referred to the industries that may be affected by this tax on sugar, such as the jam-making industry, the confectionery industry and the mineral-water industry. All these industries will be affected by this tax. Deputy Davin waxed very eloquent yesterday in his attack on the Government for the imposition of certain taxes on food. To-day the Deputy waxed very eloquent again when attacking the Government, on the one hand, for putting on tariffs and the Fine Gael Party because of their opposition to the sugar tax.

That is not correct.

The effect of one of his statements was: We stand by our vote for a tax on tobacco. Do they stand by their votes for a tax on flour and butter?

I rely on the Official Report to prove that I never made such a statement.

That is, in effect, what he said.

The Deputy is purporting to quote what I said. I never used these words.

Did you say you stood by the tax on tobacco?

I cannot prevent any Deputy from construing another Deputy's remarks.

Did the Deputy say:

"We stand by our vote for the tax on tobacco?"

Yes. That is correct.

They voted for the tax on flour and they voted for a tax on butter. They cannot get away from that. I have a good deal of sympathy with Deputy Davin and with the Labour Party in the unfortunate position in which they find themselves. They cannot have it both ways. Deputy Davin has spoken on a most appropriate Resolution. There is a good deal of similarity between Deputy Davin and sugar. They are both soluble in water, especially the cold water poured on the Labour Party, and on Deputy Davin in particular, by the President of the Executive Council.

The Irish Times again.

The Deputy spoke about what the Cosgrave Government failed to do. If there were a change of Government to-morrow morning and Deputy Davin desired to square his attitude in relation to any vote, he would begin to talk about what the Fianna Fáil Government had failed to do. That is not honest and nobody knows that better than Deputy Davin himself. He even confessed a moment ago that, in the councils of the Labour Party, he was regarded as a materialist, and many other things.

Again, I did not use that word. The Deputy is wasting the time of the House.

That he was almost an Imperialist. I was letting Deputy Davin down lightly. I know that it is very dangerous to hurl the word Imperialist at anyone to-day. In my time he was known as the bad boy of the Party.

For the information of the Deputy, the word I used was realist.

Discussions that took place in the Labour Party do not arise on this Resolution.

Not since Deputy Anthony was expelled.

I agree, I am quoting as nearly as I can the words of Deputy Davin. He is only the small drummer now in the Labour Party.

What about the big boy in the blue shirt?

It is better to be the big boy than the small baby. Deputy Davin waxed very eloquent against the Cosgrave Government because they did not push on more with social services, all the time, forgetting—and he knows it as well as I do—that there can be no analogy whatever between the ten years period of the Cosgrave Government and the period during which the present Government has been in office. Deputy Davin knows as well as I do that the country was in turmoil when the Cosgrave Government took office and that, by the time they were done paying—reaching to many millions—for the destruction carried out by persons now in the present Government——

All this can be discussed on the General Resolution.

I want Deputy Anthony to come to Resolution No. 11.

I would like to castigate Deputy Davin, but I will not get a chance.

Deputy Morrissey gave you the wrong quotation.

Notwithstanding all the fortnightly conversations that Deputy Davin and company had with the present Government Party, and with the President—all of which were well advertised in the Press next morning—in relation to future social services and economic policy——

The Press of the country stated that.

The Cork Examiner.

No, the Press of the country. If this is one of the results of the fortnightly conversations and the wonderful things Deputy Davin and the Labour Party have done——

What about sugar?

This is part of the policy. Deputy Davin and members of the Labour Party must remember that it was almost a tradition in the Party to vote against any taxation on the food of the people, rich or poor. As I knew it, the policy of the Party could be easily epitomised in one sentence. At one time, it was regarded as a slogan, "a free breakfast table." I challenge Deputy Davin to deny that. Was not that the policy of the Labour Party up to the time this Government came into office? I have consistently followed along the lines of that policy. I voted against every tax on the food of the people, and I shall continue to do so. Deputy O'Sullivan borrowed some of my thunder, as I had taken a particular note of what Deputy Davin said.

Deputy Morrissey gave you the wrong quotation.

I am not a gambler, but I would like to bet £5 to a 1d. that Deputy Davin is wrong.

I am not interested in what Deputy Morrissey did or did not do, or in any bets as to what he did. Let us discuss Resolution No. 11.

Deputy Davin suggested that any person who votes against this Financial Resolution——

Deputy Anthony should be allowed to speak.

——was voting against pensions for widows and orphans. His attitude reminded Deputy O'Sullivan of the person who cried: "Strike me now with the orphan in my arms."

If he said it, why do you repeat it?

It is no harm to emphasise it. Deputy Davin forgets that he has already voted for a tax on butter, for a tax on the poor man's loaf in the shape of a tax on wheat, and for a tax on tobacco. Surely it will be conceded that butter and bread are essentials to the poor man's table. I will have an opportunity to go into this matter again, but I want to emphasise that Deputy Davin and the Labour Party voted for what I may call an enabling motion, authorising the Government to put into operation their financial policy. That cannot be denied. Deputy Davin almost said that they are proud of it, that "we did it and we have nothing to be ashamed of." The Deputy is not ashamed of putting a tax on the poor man's butter, on the loaf and on tobacco, while he accuses other people of voting against a tax on sugar. He forgets the speech that was made by his own leader, and the speeches of some members of his Party in the country, in which they said that in order to do certain things, and to provide certain social services, old age pensions must be raided, and, to paraphrase the words of Deputy Norton, the Unemployment Assistance Fund must be raided. These are not my words; they are the words of Deputy Davin's leader. I take it that the Deputy subscribes to that policy. I am opposed to this tax on sugar for the reasons I have given. I cannot see how the Labour Party can depart from the tradition that was there. I regret it. They have my full sympathy, and the sympathy of nearly every man, woman and child in this country. I sympathise particularly with Deputy Davin in the unfortunate position he is now in. I intended to send him a letter of condolence.

I read "Wide-awake."

Since the debate started the members of the Opposition Party have been more concerned with attacking the Labour Party than on the Budget Resolution. Certainly Deputy Anthony occupies a very peculiar position in this House. Since he was expelled from the Labour Party he has taken every opportunity that presented itself to make an attack on the Party without any regard to truth.

The Deputy talked about this Party supporting the Government in taxing the breakfasttable of the poor. He knows quite well that the Resolution we supported was one to give the Government money to carry on the affairs of the country for the ensuing 12 months. The Deputy knows quite well that this is not the first time the Labour Party, even when he was a member of the Party, supported the same Resolution. The Deputy said that the Labour Party cannot have it both ways. Unfortunately for him he was confronted with a situation yesterday in which he confessed that owing to being presented by the Minister with a mixed grill he had to vote in a certain direction.

To show my independence.

I guarantee that if the records of the House are looked up it will be seen that the Labour Party has voted against the Fianna Fáil Government oftener than Deputy Anthony voted against the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. That goes to show conclusively that it is blind prejudice sends Deputy Anthony into that lobby day after day. He supported, yesterday, a Resolution in which taxation was imposed upon the poor, the rich and various other people simply because it contained one clause in respect of the printing of prayer books and breviaries, a trade in which Deputy Anthony is interested. A very short time ago, just before Easter, Deputy Anthony again went into the division lobby with the Government because there was a tariff being put on which favoured the City of Cork. That is anything but in keeping with the consistency about which Deputy Anthony always talks. Everyone opened their eyes yesterday when they saw Deputy Anthony in that division lobby and this is the man who talks about consistency. The difference between this Party and the Opposition Party and its hangers-on over there is that this Party is genuinely concerned with the taxation being put on sugar and tea.

And bread and butter.

I voted against the butter tax.

The Deputy what?

I voted against the butter tax.

On the Fifth Stage of the Bill?

That is a different matter altogether.

And the wheat tax.

The difference, as I say, between this Party and the Opposition Party and its hangers-on over there——

What about the sugar?

Hold your tongue. The difference is that we are genuinely concerned with the poor and the breakfast table, and these people are merely using this to beat the Government. Whatever has been brought forward here during the last two or three years has been voted against consistently by that Party over there. We have supported this Government, and I want to say that we are going to support this Government. If it were a question of a farthing a pound on sugar or the interests of this country in relation to dealing with England, we would vote for the farthing on sugar. We are not prepared to lower the prestige of this country. We are not prepared to put this Government out of office to put you back again. We know what we got from that Government when it was in office for ten years, and it is hypocrisy pure and simple for the people on the Front Bench to talk about taxation on the poor. They are the people who, we know, took a shilling off the old age pensions.

Come down to sugar.

Hold your tongue; you can speak when I am finished. They are the same people who stipulated, when the Shannon Scheme was going through and where there was heavy work to be done, that no more than a certain wage should be paid, notwithstanding the fact that the contractor in charge was prepared to pay more.

What is paid now?

The Shannon Scheme is finished.

On relief schemes?

I am not in favour of the wages being paid now, and the Deputy knows that. I will not allow him to put me into a false position.

We want to get to Financial Resolution No. 11. The Deputy is travelling a bit.

He was over in England a few minutes ago.

I am sorry if I have digressed, Sir, but it is very hard to sit here under all the condemnation and belabouring which the Labour Party has got, and especially from people who are anything but consistent. The sneering of Deputy Dillon will not prevent me from answering that criticism. As I said in the beginning, we are opposed to this tax. We believe that other means could have been found to provide the money.

What are the means?

That is not our job at the moment. We have not the responsibility of bringing in the Budget.

The Deputy did not make any suggestions himself.

They do not want to make any suggestions. The more unpopular a Budget appears to them, the more they will like it. They talk about this Party being discredited and in the same breath, they say that the Government is discredited and that the people are just waiting for an opportunity to put the Government out. I do not know whether that is true or not, but if it is, what more popular thing could the Labour Party do than to use its vote in order to put the Government out? That would make us popular according to these people. We have no intention in the world of doing that. This country is engaged in a fight with another country and this Party is going to support the Government in that fight.

The discussion on this Resolution has become a discussion as between individual Deputies, and much valuable time has been lost. I suggest to Deputy Little that if he wants to effect economy in the time of the House, he should ask Deputy Donnelly to get in touch with Deputy Norton and Deputy Davin and ask them not to make their election speeches here on a Resolution dealing with sugar. We are a sort of homely family in the County Louth. Neither Deputy Murphy nor I ever have occasion to speak about the Minister for Defence and I would advise Deputy Little, if he wants to save time, to get them to come to some general agreement and not to be fighting their fights here with regard to what happened in Leix-Offaly.

There is none of that at all. You were not here.

This imposition on sugar is, to my mind, very unfortunate, especially when one takes into consideration the position of the Border counties of the Free State. The Minister for Finance must be aware that the mere fact of there being any difference in the prices prevailing in the Free State and Northern Ireland in tea or sugar tends to a big increase in smuggling in Border counties like Louth, Monaghan, Cavan, Sligo and Donegal, to the detriment of traders in the towns on the Border. The farthing increase on sugar may appear small, but I should like to remind the House that it is not a question of a farthing so far as these people are concerned. It is a question of almost three halfpence of a difference in the pound, because, as everybody knows, there is a big difference at the moment in the prices of sugar in the Free State and in Northern Ireland.

I am particularly concerned with the increase from that angle. It is a well-known fact that most of the customers of traders in the northern area of County Louth, and especially the northern end of the chief town of the county, Dundalk, come from the northern parts and from the hinterland adjoining the county, in South Armagh and such areas. As a result of this increase and the difference prevailing in price, these traders have lost, during the past few years a very considerable portion of the trade they formerly enjoyed. This increase will tend to make their losses greater and if only for that reason alone, I think this imposition of a 1/4d. a lb. on sugar is very unwise. As I have often stated in this House—I do not know whether it is the proper place to consider these questions at all or not—this country is a small country and I have also hinted that there was such a thing as economic pressure which would bring the whole lot of us to our senses. I was glad when I heard Deputy Flinn making use the other night of those same words—that we were up against it. Mind you, I am not at all displeased that this situation has arisen, because anybody who took stock of what has been going on, especially since we set up house in this country——

Two Houses!

——must have come to the conclusion that with the resources which we have at our disposal it would be impossible to continue imposing taxation at the rate at which we have been imposing it, and expect to make ends meet. Therefore, I am not at all surprised that the Minister and the Executive Council were forced to put these increases on the necessaries of life, for the simple reason that there are no rich people in this country. Practically all that they had has been taken from them, and in order to get money now we have got to impose taxes on everybody. As far as I can see, everybody is becoming poor, and, therefore, you must tax the poor if you want to get money. The Fianna Fáil Government, in order to balance the Budget and get in this enormous amount of money—£29,000,000 or £30,000,000—from this small country, finds it necessary to tax everybody.

It has been stated by Deputy Donnelly, in answer to Deputy Davin, that he is going to stand behind those increases, on the plea that a farthing per lb. on sugar is not much, and that in return for that increase many of the people down the country are getting work. Yes; I suppose Deputy Donnelly will make use of that argument—that because men are getting work at £1 or 22/- per week it is no harm to impose an increase of a farthing per lb. on sugar. That is a poor argument, and I should like to remind Deputy Donnelly that, though a farthing may be small in itself, a farthing on sugar, 4d. on tea, and all the other taxes added together make a very considerable increase in the cost of living. It is only a matter of common sense to say that where wages are concerned there is no use in having £2 per week if, in order to get that £2, it is necessary to pay an extra 4/- or 5/- per week for the necessaries of life. In other words, it has come to this: This country is about the dearest country in the world to live in at the present time. Anybody who studies the situation, and gets down to the facts, as I have done on occasions, must come to that conclusion. For instance, a man in Northern Ireland who is earning 35/- or 30/- per week can buy as much as the man with £2 in the Free State. That has a big effect on the solution of unemployment. You can understand what 10/- saved on a man's wages means. Assuming that we use 3,000,000 sacks of flour and pay an extra 10/- per sack. That is an extra £1,500,000 which we pay for our flour, and you can employ 15,000 men, or not employ them but leave them to go idle around the streets and pay them £2 per week, on that £1,500,000.

Time will tell all this. The economic pressure is increasing. No amount of propaganda can keep it back. The use of the machine gun will not keep it back; it is on our track at the present time. Even though we will all have to suffer I am glad that the time has arrived when it has become patent even to the members of Fianna Fáil that it is a dangerous thing to go out and make false promises—promises which you cannot hope to fulfil.

The Fianna Fáil Government to-day has to increase the cost of the necessaries of life because of the false promises they made during the last election and the previous one, when men like myself were telling the people the truth—that no Government could solve the unemployment problem which Fianna Fáil were telling the people they could solve. They are now enjoying the result of those promises. They have magnified the resources of this country out of all proportion to what they really are, and we are up against it, as Deputy Flinn said the other night. In the course of time we will be more up against it, until we recognise the fact that we have set up house here and must abide by what the country can give. The Government has had to put a tax of a farthing on sugar, 4d. on tea, 6d. per cwt. on wheat and 6d. to 8d. per lb. on tobacco. That taxation will go on increasing so long as, for the sake of getting votes, you make promises to the people which you cannot fulfil.

Question put:—"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Financial Resolution No. 11."
The Dáil divided:—Tá, 52; Níl, 41.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Reilly, John Joseph.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Wall, Nicholas.
Tellers—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
Financial Resolution No. 12 agreed to.

Might I interrupt the Minister to say that we are quite prepared to leave these Resolutions over without discussion and to agree to them without discussion on the understanding that a memorandum will be circulated before the Finance Bill is taken, giving a full explanation of what all these sub-heads by reference mean?

I agree to that.

Let me add, without prejudice.

Financial Resolutions Nos. 13 and 14 agreed to.

With regard to Financial Resolution No. 15, is this purely for the purpose of raising revenue? What effect will it have on the jam manufacturers?

It means increased taxation for those raw fruits.

What do the jam manufacturers say about it?

They get a licence for the most part of their importation.

What is the procedure when the Minister gives a licence for the importation of apples?

The policy has been to reduce the imports by five per cent. each year. The licences issued to jam manufacturers have been reduced by five per cent. each year.

It so happened this year that in one week apples came down from 30/- a barrel in the Dublin market to 7/6. On one occasion they were waiting at midnight over the Border to rush their apples to the Dublin market. I think this thing should be done on a sliding scale.

Financial Resolutions Nos. 15 and 16 agreed to.

With regard to Financial Resolution No. 17, I want to know what relation does our production bear to our consumption?

We are not in production of cutlery yet, but we expect to be.

Financial Resolutions Nos. 17 and 18 agreed to.

Barr
Roinn