Public Business. - Pigs and Bacon Bill, 1934—From the Seanad.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in the following amendments:—
Section 15, sub-section (1). The word "three" deleted in line 1 and the word "seven" substituted therefor.
Section 15, sub-section (2). The word "three" deleted in line 15 and the word "seven" substituted therefor.
As the Bill stands, returns must be made within three days from the end of the accounting period. That was considered rather short, and by these amendments it is proposed to give seven days instead of three.
Are you including Sundays or bank holidays? The three days would, of course, have excluded a bank holiday, as it would be utterly unreasonable to include it or to include Sunday.
Dr. Ryan
The practice is not to count Sundays or holidays.
If you said one week the question would not arise, but when you say seven days it is quite possible that it would be inclusive of a Sunday.
Dr. Ryan
They are seven working days.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendments Nos. 3, 4 and 5:—
3. Section 17, sub-section (4). The word "of" deleted in line 29, where it secondly occurs.
4. Section 17, sub-section (4). The word "account" deleted in line 35 and the word "document" substituted therefor.
5. Section 24, sub-section (2). The word "satisfied" deleted in line 34 and the word "satisfies" substituted therefor.
These are merely drafting amendments.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 6:—
Section 24, sub-section (5). The sub-section deleted and the following new sub-section substituted therefor:—
(5) Where—
(a) an application is made at any time by a company, registered under the Companies Acts, 1908 to 1924, or a society registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893, for a licence in respect of any premises, and
(b) such company or society satisfies the Minister that the number of its shareholders or members is not less than one thousand and that each shareholder or member is a pig producer in Saorstát Eireann,
the Minister shall, subject to the provisions of sub-sections (7) and (8) of this section, grant such licence.
This is a redrafted amendment which was originally inserted at the instance of Deputy McGovern on the Report Stage. On examination, it was found that Deputy McGovern's amendment would not meet with the approval of the draftsman, but the principle is the same as was proposed by Deputy McGovern.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 7:—
Section 24, sub-section (6). The word and figure "or (4)" deleted in line 17 and the word and figures "(4) or (5)" substituted therefor.
This is consequential on the last amendment.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendments Nos. 8, 9, 10 and 11:—
8. Section 33, sub-section (1). The word "to" deleted in line 7 where it first occurs, and the word "shall" substituted therefor.
9. Section 33, sub-section (4). The word "of" deleted in line 52.
10. Section 33, sub-section (4). The word "account" deleted in line 58 and the word "document" substituted therefor.
11. Section 36, sub-section (6). The words "cleanliness and suitability of" deleted in lines 28-29 and the words "suitability of slaughtering" substituted therefor.
Would the Minister explain the reason for the alteration in the wording? In one instance the word "to" is changed to the word "shall."
Dr. Ryan
I think if the Deputy were to examine that clause he would see that the amendments are merely drafting. The original wording was due to a mistake, and the new wording does not alter the meaning of the clause at all.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 12:—
Section 39, sub-sections (1) and (2). The sub-sections deleted and the following new sub-sections substituted therefor:—
(1) Wages payable to a workman employed at licensed premises shall be at a rate not less than the rate generally recognised by trade unions and employers as the rate applicable to workmen employed in a similar kind of work at similar licensed premises.
(2) The conditions of employment (other than the rate of wages) of a workman employed at licensed premises shall not be less advantageous than the conditions of employment generally recognised by trade unions and employers as the conditions of employment applicable to workmen employed in a similar kind of work at similar licensed premises.
There was some discussion in the Seanad on the wages clause in the Bill, and I agreed to bring in an amendment with exactly the same wording as appears in the Cereals Act, governing wage conditions in flour mills. We have some experience of the working of the clause in these mills, and that experience has proved satisfactory. I may say that the idea to which we desired to give expression was that areas should be fixed within which certain standard rates should operate. The clause in the Cereals Act is worded in this way, and the effect of it was that they could fix wage areas. That is the reason we changed the amendment in this case.
It affects only a place where bacon is being cured?
Dr. Ryan
What is the standard suggested in any one of these cases?
Dr. Ryan
The standard as defined here is the recognised trade union conditions. It is a matter for negotiation really between the parties. If, say, you have five bacon factories in an area like Monaghan and Cavan, an area in which the conditions might be looked upon as more or less uniform, and if one factory were paying less than the other four, it would be compelled to give the same conditions.
Does it follow that one nearer Cavan than Monaghan would be compelled to pay a different rate of wages to that paid in Monaghan? A case might arise where a factory would be contiguous to the boundary line of the area and still might be paying different wages.
Dr. Ryan
I do not think so. We have, of course, only a short experience of the flour-milling business, but it appears that this clause has worked very satisfactorily in that business. I do not know what the areas are. I just mention Cavan and Monaghan as a likely area, as they have the same type of bacon trade, and would probably pay the same wages. I should like to point out, however, that a small factory in Dublin would be compelled to pay the same wages as a large factory. The effect of the amendment is not that a big factory in a city would pay a certain rate of wages, and that a small factory in that city would pay another rate. The effect of it is that certain areas will pay a certain rate of wages, whether the factories in them are big or small.
I do not know whether a certain return recently issued by the Statistics Branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce has come under the Minister's notice. An examination of that return shows that there has been almost as big a difference as could be imagined in increases in wages in some classes of employment. One particular case occurs to my mind. There were 688 persons employed in a particular industry. The average wages in 1931 were, approximately, 225 per cent. over the corresponding average paid to the persons employed in the industry in 1933. Despite that, there has been a reduction in the number of persons employed. I do not know whether the same big changes would be effected by this amendment. If there are to be zones, how are you going to schedule them so as to ensure that there will be anything like a level rate?
Dr. Ryan
That would really be a matter for agreement between the trades unions and the employers. I do not think that under this section the Minister could be asked to interpret the area. If it were reported to the Minister that in a particular area one factory refused to pay the recognised rate, then he might be asked to interfere in the case of that factory.
To what extent would the Minister be asked to interfere? Would his interference only amount to representations to the factory?
Dr. Ryan
I imagine that, in the first instance, he would make representations to the factory.
Who will define the area under this amendment? I understood the Minister to say that the same rates of wages will apply to a particular area, whether you have big or small factories in that area. For instance, you may have a factory with a small output. That factory may be situated in some small town. Will that factory be compelled to pay the same rate of wages as big firms like Denny's and O'Mara's? The output per man is, of course, much greater in the large factory than it is in the small one.
Dr. Ryan
The effect of the amendment would be that if there was a small factory, say, in Waterford, then it would have to pay the same rate of wages as Denny's, in Waterford. The amendment has been put in really for the purpose of making areas.
But who will define the areas?
Dr. Ryan
That will have to be done by negotiation between the two parties. There is no other way of doing it. So far as an area is concerned, I presume that if a trade union thought it had a grievance or, on the other hand, if a factory thought it had a grievance, one of the two parties would bring the other to court and seek for an order defining the area. That is not provided for in the amendment, but it is the only sort of appeal that can be resorted to, so far as I can see.
I think the Minister will agree that the wording of the amendment is very vague.
Dr. Ryan
It is, but a similar clause in the Cereals Act has worked satisfactorily.
I am not at all sure that the amendment will achieve what it purports to do. It speaks of "a similar kind of work at similar licensed premises." That does not mean premises similarly licensed. I take it that similar licensed premises would mean premises of much the same size. My reading of the amendment leads me to the conclusion that the scale of wages will not be level in a particular area as between a small and a large factory.
Dr. Ryan
In connection with this amendment, I think that a good deal will have to be left to negotiation.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move: That the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 13:—
Section 40, sub-section (3). The words "twenty-five" deleted in line 26 and the word "five" substituted therefor.
On the Report Stage of the Bill in the Dáil I promised to bring in this amendment changing the fine from £25 to £5 for a first offence. The fear was expressed in the Dáil that a person killing a pig for the use of his own family and selling, say, a few pounds of the bacon could be fined £25. That was not our intention. The intention is to endeavour to put out of business people who are not properly registered.
But you still propose to fine such a person £5.
Dr. Ryan
We are taking power in the Bill to enable the district justice to do it, but he will probably not do it for a first offence.
But, surely, in the sort of case cited by the Minister it is not the intention to have prosecutions?
Dr. Ryan
It would be illegal to sell bacon unless a person was registered.
You are making it illegal for a farmer to cure bacon in his own house if he disposes of a portion of it. That is an extraordinary enactment.
Dr. Ryan
A farmer must not dispose of what he cures in his own house. I am sure that if a case were brought to court and a man was charged with disposing of a few pounds of the bacon that he had cured for the use of his own family, the district justice would not fine him, but suppose you had the case of a man who was making a practice of that—a man who was killing a pig twice a week for the use of his own family, and selling the greater portion of the bacon that he cured—then, of course, we would have to ask that the full fine would be imposed on him.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 14:—
Section 51, sub-section (2). The words "one month" deleted in line 17 and the words "six months" substituted therefor.
This is an amendment that, on the Report Stage, I was asked to bring in.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 15:—
Section 52. The words "method, standard, and" deleted where they occur in lines 23, 30, 36 and 41.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendments Nos. 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20:—
16. Section 55, sub-section (1). The words "free from disease" deleted in line 52 and the words "fit for human consumption" substituted therefor.
17. Section 55, sub-section (1). Line 8 deleted and the words "such carcase, on such examination, was found fit for human consumption" substituted therefor.
18. Section 55, sub-section (1). The word "properly" deleted in line 11.
19. Section 55, sub-section (2). The words "such carcase" deleted in line 32 and the words "the carcase of such pig" substituted therefor.
20. Section 55, sub-section (2). Paragraph (e) deleted and the following new paragraph substituted therefor:—
(e) that the carcase and viscera of such pig were examined by him in accordance with the veterinary examination (pigs and carcases) regulations and such carcase, on such examination, was found fit for human consumption, and
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 21:—
Section 73, sub-section (2). The figures and words "1938, the year 1940" deleted in line 48 and the figures and words "1939, the year 1942, the year 1945" substituted therefore.
The object of the amendment is to change the term of office of the members of the Bacon Marketing Board from two years to three years. This amendment was brought forward in the Seanad. I thought there was a good deal to be said for it. In the discussions that took place on it in the Seanad I did not speak for or against, but the Seanad decided in favour of a three-year term rather than a two-year term. I do not know if Deputies have any very strong views on this. I think everyone can see that there are arguments for and against the three-year term and the two-year term. If the members of the Board prove to be satisfactory, then we would all prefer the three-year term. If, on the other hand, they were unsatisfactory, we would prefer the two-year term. That is the whole point.
Will they carry their original qualification all the time?
Dr. Ryan
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 22:—
Section 77, sub-section (2). The word "year" deleted in line 9 and the word "order" substituted therefor.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendments Nos. 23, 24 and 25, which are consequential on amendment No. 21:—
23. Section 82, sub-section (1). The word "two" deleted in line 46 and the word "three" substituted therefor.
24. Section 82, sub-section (2). The word "two" deleted in line 56 and the word "three" substituted therefor.
25. Section 91, sub-section (2). The word "biennial" deleted in line 44 and the word "triennial" substituted therefor.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 26:—
Section 98, sub-section (4). A new paragraph added at the end of the sub-section as follows:—
(e) such other matters as the Board considers relevant.
This also is a matter that was raised on the Report Stage of the Bill. When the Board is making a quota order it is bound under the Bill to take certain things into account. It was feared in the Dáil that something might be forgotten. We think that the insertion of the words "such other matters as the Board considers relevant" will cover anything that might be left out of the measure.
Must the Board be unanimous on any matter which they consider?
Dr. Ryan
If the Board is not unanimous the Chairman is being given power to exercise a veto.
Dr. Ryan
This is one of the matters.
Dr. Ryan
No. In certain stated matters they must be unanimous.
Is this one of the stated matters?
Dr. Ryan
The question of allocations is one of the big questions on which the Bacon Marketing Board must be unanimous. In the case of the Pigs Marketing Board, they must be unanimous on the question of fixing price.
But the Board is not required to be unanimous in these relevant matters?
Dr. Ryan
No. Before this amendment was inserted, the Bill set out that the Board must consider the capacity of the markets, the quantity of bacon which it anticipates is required to be placed in cold storage, the stock of bacon in hands and the supply of bacon likely to be available. It was thought that something might be omitted, and this other clause—"such other matters as the Board considers relevant"— was inserted. It relates to what the Board must keep in mind when fixing the allocation——
They need not be unanimous on the question as to what is to be deemed to be relevant?
Dr. Ryan
I do not know what the Deputy has in mind.
The Minister states that there are certain matters such as the allocation of quotas and the fixing of prices in which the decision, if there be a division in the Board, will depend upon the chairman. I have not had time to examine the amended Bill as closely as I should wish, but I should like to know if the Board has power to take into consideration such other matters as they consider relevant. As regards the fixing of prices and the allocation of quotas, if the Board be divided, the chairman has power to declare that there is no unanimity. Will the Board be precluded from considering matters deemed to be relevant by the majority because of absence of unanimity?
Dr. Ryan
The amendment does not work in that way at all.
Question agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 27:—
Section 98, sub-section (5). A new sub-section inserted before the sub-section as follows:—
"(5) The Pigs Marketing Board may make recommendations to the Board in relation to the production period and the production quota to be appointed by any production order, and the Board shall in making such order consider any such recommendations."
Question agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 28:—
Section 101. The word "five" deleted in line 5 and the word "ten" substituted therefor.
This matter was raised by Deputy Dillon on Report Stage.
Question agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 29:—
Section 109. A new paragraph added at the foot of the section as follows:—
(c) contribute, with the consent of the Minister, towards the cost of schemes for the improvement of pigs.
The bacon curers have, up to the present, contributed a certain amount to a fund for premiums for boars. The curers were anxious that these payments should be continued by the Bacon Board. A pro rata contribution will be made by the curers and, out of that fund, payments will be made in lieu of the payments which curers made personally heretofore.
Is this inside or outside the terms of the Bill?
Dr. Ryan
It is within the terms of the Bill.
Dr. Ryan
In any event, the word used is "may".
The Seanad is still a most useful institution.
Dr. Ryan
We could get on without it.
Question put and agreed to.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 30:—
Section 109. A new paragraph added at the end of the section as follows:—
(c) subject to conditions approved by the Minister, sell bacon or establish a marketing organisation for the sale of bacon.
This amendment was pressed upon me by the Seanad and I do not know that it is going to prove of much value. However, I do not see any great objection to having it inserted in the Bill. The Seanad thought that the Bacon Board might turn its attention to the organised marketing of bacon for foreign consumption. I thought that, if such a thing were to arise, new legislation would be required. This amendment gives the Board power to set up a marketing scheme in a modest way. It is also laid down that it must be subject to the control of the Minister. I think the amendment cannot do any great harm.
It could not get a worse baptism.
Question put and agreed to.
The Committee agreed with the Seanad in the following amendments:—
31. Section 111, sub-section (9). After the words "in respect of" in line 16, and also in line 20, the words "any carcases used for the production of bacon during" inserted.
32. Section 113, sub-section (4). The word "account" deleted in line 40 and the word "document" substituted therefor.
33. Section 120, sub-section (1). The word "biennial" deleted in line 49 and the word "triennial" substituted therefor.
34. Section 120, sub-section (2). The word "biennial" deleted in line 2 and the word "triennial" substituted therefor.
35. Section 123, sub-section (1). The word "two" deleted in line 30 and the word "three" substituted therefor.
36. Section 127, sub-section (5). The figures and words "1938, the year 1940" deleted in line 49 and the figures and words "1939, the year 1942, the year 1945" substituted therefor.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 37:—
Section 140, sub-section (4). The following words added at the end of the sub-section:—"and every order amending a price order shall specify the date (not being earlier than the Monday next following the date on which such order is made) on which such order is to come into force."
This matter arose on Report Stage here. It was feared that the Board might make an order and bring it into operation immediately. The Prices Board is not likely to do a thing like that, but we have put in, as a safeguard, a provision that the order cannot come into operation until the following Monday. It was the practice heretofore with the curers to meet on Friday and agree upon a price for the following week. That price is sent to the various buyers on Saturday and they start to buy on Monday. We are, more or less, following that practice in the Bill. We assume that they will meet on Friday and that the price can be published over the wireless or in the Press so that farmers will have a clear idea, at latest by Monday, of what the price will be.
It would be well if it were provided that the price should be fixed not later than Friday. If the meeting of the Board runs into Saturday, complications may arise. This is an infirmity in the Bill which there is no chance of removing now. I do not know whether the Minister listens-in to the wireless or not.
Dr. Ryan
I do, when I am not here.
This portion of the programme seems to subsist, to a large extent, on orders made by the Executive Council. It should be provided that the order be made not later than Friday and that it be published on the wireless at a given hour. A number of markets are held on Saturday and it would certainly lead to inconvenience if the Board were merely considering the price on Saturday.
Dr. Ryan
I think that the Deputy will find that very few pig markets are held on Saturday in the South. I do not know much about the North. That is the reason that the Curers' Association held their meetings on Friday. The prices could then be sent out for the following Monday. I can promise that the influence of the Department will be brought to bear upon them to meet on Friday. There are three producers on that Board and, naturally, they will be anxious that everybody should know what the price is going to be. We do not expect these prices will be changed more than three or four times in the year.
There are three producers on the Board, but the Chairman has a veto if there is disagreement?
Dr. Ryan
Will the Minister undertake to impress on the Board the necessity—not the advisability—of meeting and fixing the price on Friday?
Dr. Ryan
Question put and agreed to.
The Committee agreed with the Seanad in the following amendment:—
38. Section 140, sub-section (5). A new paragraph added at the end of the sub-section as follows:—
(f) such other matters as the Board considers relevant.
Dr. Ryan
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in the following amendments:—
39. Section 147, sub-section (1). Lines 52 to 55, inclusive, deleted, and the following substituted therefor:—"subject however to the following limitation, namely, that the total amount payable under this paragraph in respect of all pigs of that class purchased by licensees and registered minor curers during such sale period shall not, unless the Board is of opinion that it is just and equitable that the said total amount should not be so limited, exceed a sum calculated by reference to the total weights of such pigs and a price equal to the difference between the appointed price for pigs of that class and the hypothetical price for pigs of that class."
40. Section 147, sub-section (2). Lines 29 to 34, inclusive, deleted and the following substituted therefor:—"class, such sum as the Board thinks proper, subject however to the following limitation, namely, that the total amount payable under this paragraph in respect of all carcases of that grade of that class purchased by licensees and registered minor curers during such sale period shall not, unless the Board is of opinion that it is just and equitable that the said total amount should not be so limited, exceed a sum calculated by reference to the total weights of such carcases and a price equal to the difference between the appointed price for carcases of that grade of that class and the hypothetical price for carcases of that grade of that class."
41. Section 147, sub-section (3). Lines 6 to 10, inclusive, deleted and the following substituted therefore:—"proper, subject however to the following limitation, namely, that the total amount payable under this paragraph in respect of all carcases of that grade of that class purchased by licensees and registered minor curers during such sale period shall not, unless the Board is of opinion that it is just and equitable that the said total amount should not be so limited, exceed a sum calculated by reference to the total weights of such carcases and a price equal to the difference between the appointed price for carcases of that grade of that class and the hypothetical price for carcases of that grade of that class."
42. Section 147, sub-section (4). Lines 45 to 49, inclusive, deleted and the following substituted therefor:—"Board thinks proper, subject however to the following limitation, namely, that the total amount payable under this paragraph in respect of all carcases of that class purchased by licensees and registered minor curers during such sale period shall not, unless the Board is of opinion that it is just and equitable that the said total amount should not be so limited, exceed a sum calculated by reference to the total weights of such carcases and a price equal to the difference between the appointed price for carcases of that class and the hypothetical price for carcases of that class."
These amendments are all to the same effect. As the Bill stands, the Board could not pay out a higher bounty than the difference between the appointed price and the hypothetical price. The altering of these prices may lead to difficulty. The hypothetical price does not make any difference to the seller, or producer, of the pigs. So long as the appointed price is all right, he will not trouble. The altering of the hypothetical price may present difficulty to the Board and it may be well to give them power to pay more than the difference at times. It will be easier to regulate matters in that way, and to find out absolutely the limit between the two prices. This gives the Board greater freedom of action. Naturally, it can only pay out what is collected in levies at certain times. There is power to borrow because at times the Board may be insolvent.
Dr. Ryan
Yes. I think we should not tie it too much as to how it pays out.
Has the Minister any idea how long a balance will be carried over?
Dr. Ryan
It is hard to say. We are not binding the Board. As Deputies will realise, there is a cycle of three or four years during which the Board may be fairly well in funds, and then there may be two or three bad years. In the Butter Stabilisation Bill we compelled them to balance the fund every year.
Dr. Ryan
It is different here, and it is better not to bind the Board to balance at any particular time.
I can understand a situation arising in a period when there would be a continual rise, which would mean that the Board would be in funds for 18 months or two years, when there might be a disposition to assume that bad times would never come. Is there any provision with regard to that, and similarly as regards borrowing, although such may be considered unjustifiable from the point of view of finance? The question is, if there is a fund, is there any limitation to what it should rise to before a distribution would take place?
Dr. Ryan
No. The principle we are trying to follow is to give the Board as full power as possible to manage its own affairs.
Question put and agreed to.
Question proposed: That the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 43:—
Section 147, sub-section (5). The words "with the consent of the Minister" deleted in lines 56-57.
Dr. Ryan
This is to carry that principle further, leaving out the words "with the consent of the Minister," in declaring the bounties and leaving matters in the hands of the Board absolutely.
Dr. Ryan
The Minister is interfering as little as possible.
Dr. Ryan
Question put and agreed to.
Question proposed: That the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 44:—
Section 147. A new sub-section added at the end of the section as follows:—
(6) Moneys received by the Board under this section from licensees and registered minor curers shall be used for no purpose other than the purpose of making payments under this section to licensees and registered minor curers.
Dr. Ryan
The curers had a fear that this money might be used for some other purpose, although, as drafted, I think the Bill made it plain that it could not be so used. In order to reassure them we are putting in this clause so that it cannot be used for any other purpose.
Question put and agreed to.
The Committee agreed with the Seanad in the following amendments:—
45. Section 148, sub-section (2). Before the word "suitable" in line 2 the word "a" inserted.
46. Section 150, sub-section (9). After the words "in respect of" in line 7, and also in line 11, the words "any carcases used for the production of bacon during" inserted.
Agreement reported with amendments Nos. 1 to 46 inclusive, the Seanad to be notified accordingly.
