Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Jun 1935

Vol. 57 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Conditions of Employment Bill, 1935—Money Resolution.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move:—

Go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú go n-íocfaí, amach as airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas, aon chostaisí fé n-a raghfar chun éifeachta do thabhairt d'aon Acht a rithfear sa tSiosón so chun socruithe bhreise agus fheabhsa do dhéanamh chun coinníollacha fostaíochta lucht oibre in obair thionnscail do rialáil agus do stíúradh agus chun socruithe do dhéanamh i dtaobh nithe iomdha bhaineas leis na nithe roimhráite.

That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of any expenses incurred in carrying into effect any Act of the present Session to make further and better provision for regulating and controlling the conditions of employment of workers engaged in industrial work, and to make provision for divers matters connected with the matters aforesaid.

The only additional expense consequent on the passing of the Bill will be in connection with the factories and workshops inspection staff. The additional expense arising out of this particular measure will be very slight.

Mr. Minch

How many inspectors are on the staff?

Mr. Lemass

I think there are 14 or 15.

Mr. Minch

For the whole Free State?

Mr. Lemass

I could not tell the Deputy the exact number.

Mr. Dillon

There are two questions which I desire to address to the Minister. On the Second Reading of this Bill he spoke of his intention to introduce similar legislation with reference to retail distributors and a variety of other trades. Has he considered the desirability of setting up some kind of commission forthwith to investigate the sort of restrictions that might appropriately be applied to these various other trades to which he referred? He does not, apparently, intend to introduce the legislation immediately, and surely it would be well to initiate an inquiry into how far one could equate hours in urban shops with hours in rural shops—how far conditions in those two types of shops could be equated—and a variety of questions of that kind upon which he will have to seek practical information before he proceeds to draft the legislation?

The second question is one of more immediate importance and that is as to the differentiation between workshops and factories. I understood that almost any place where industrial occupations were carried on was a factory and was liable to inspection under the Factory Acts. I learned for the first time from Deputy T. Kelly, who is the chairman of many trade boards, that there is a distinction between a factory and a workshop. Will the Minister take advantage of this occasion to explain to the House what is the difference between a factory and a workshop and what essential element in an industrial enterprise is it that brings it within the scope of the Trade Boards Acts and what kind of enterprise is excluded from the operation of the Trade Boards Acts.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is now dealing with matters that have no relation to the Bill with which we are concerned.

Mr. Dillon

This is a Money Resolution arising out of the Conditions of Employment Bill. I understand these are very largely controlled by the Trade Boards Acts?

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Dillon

I am now told they are only so controlled when the labour is employed in a factory.

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister need not try to make this more complicated than it is.

Mr. Lemass

The Trade Boards Acts and the Factory Acts and the other matters to which the Deputy referred have nothing whatever to do with this Bill.

Mr. Dillon

As I have indicated, the Minister need not try to make things more complicated than they already are. I understood that if you had a trade board, say for the furniture industry, under the chairmanship of Deputy T. Kelly, representatives of the employers and employees would come to him and arrange conditions of employment and those conditions would apply to every workingman employed in the manufacture of furniture. I now discover from Deputy T. Kelly that that is not strictly accurate, that the regulations made by the Trade Board for the furniture trade apply only to operatives working in a factory. If they are working in a workshop the Trade Board regulations do not apply to them, nor have the factory inspectors any power to require the owners of workshops to carry out the regulations. Only the Dublin Corporation can control the workshops in the City of Dublin.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is on a wrong line altogether. The Trade Boards Acts fix rates of wages, but that has nothing to do with the Factory and Workshop Acts.

Mr. Dillon

Are these rates only applicable to persons working in factories as distinct from workshops?

Mr. Norton

To persons in the industry.

Mr. Dillon

If you have factories and workshops in a particular industry everybody working in them must get paid. The Factory Acts which prescribe conditions of labour apply only to factories.

Mr. Lemass

And workshops. The name of the Act is the Factory and Workshop Act.

Mr. Dillon

A certain confusion arose in my mind in connection with this matter, and that was why I was anxious to have some information from the Minister.

Mr. Norton

Could we have from the Minister some general idea as to his intentions in respect of similar Bills covering other branches of industry? What are the Minister's intentions in respect of the transport industry, in respect of commerce, in respect of distributive trades? I think this matter is quite germane to the consideration of this Bill and perhaps, since we cannot raise it conveniently on any section, the Minister might give us the information now.

Mr. MacDermot

And the agricultural labourers.

Mr. Lemass

The intention is to provide in due course a series of Bills that will regulate conditions of employment generally. We are taking those matters step by step. It will be some considerable time before all the Bills will have been enacted. The next Bill will be a Bill to amend and codify the Factory and Workshop Acts and that will be followed by the legislation which is in course of preparation for the regulation of the retail trade and the regulation of employment in commercial occupations. There is not the same urgency for legislation in respect of some other matters, such as transport and mining and other forms of work not covered by the Bills I have mentioned. The intention is to have legislation in respect of them also in due course.

Mr. Minch

It would appear there is a regular reign of terror in the way of legislation before us.

Mr. Dillon

Do I understand there is a Bill in course of preparation for the retail trade?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

Is that being based on the findings of a Commission of Inquiry or a Board of Inquiry?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy had better wait until the Bill is before the House.

Mr. Dillon

Has the Minister taken steps to inform himself of the views of the people concerned?

Mr. Lemass

I may say I have received more resolutions on this matter from different organisations than on any other matter with which I have been connected.

Mr. Dillon

And the Minister is satisfied that he is fully informed on the subject?

Mr. Lemass

I have not said that.

Question agreed to.