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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 28 Feb 1936

Vol. 60 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 61—Unemployment Insurance and Unemployment Assistance.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £13,380 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Arachais Díomhaointis agus Malartán Fostuíochta (maraon le síntiúisí do Chiste an Díomhaointis) agus i dtaobh Conganta Díomhaointis (9 Edw. 7. c. 7; 10 agus 11 Geo. 5; c. 30; 11 Geo. 5, c. 1; 11 agus 12 Geo. 5, c. 15; 12 Geo. 5, c. 7; Uimh. 17 de 1923; Uimh. 26 agus Uimh. 59 de 1924; Uimh. 21 de 1926; Uimh. 33 de 1930; agus Uimh. 44 agus Uimh. 46 de 1933; agus Uimh. 38 de 1935) agus i dtaobh seirbhísí áirithe fén Acht um Beithigh agus Caoire do Mharbhadh, 1934 (Uimh. 42 de 1934).

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £13,380 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for the Salaries and Expenses in connection with Unemployment Insurance and Employment Exchanges (including contributions to the Unemployment Fund) and Unemployment Assistance (9 Edw. 7, c. 7; 10 and 11 Geo. 5, c. 30; 11 Geo. 5, c. 1; 11 and 12 Geo 5, c. 15; 12 Geo. 5, c. 7; No. 17 of 1923; Nos. 26 and 59 of 1924; No. 21 of 1926; No. 33 of 1930 and Nos. 44 and 46 of 1933; and No. 38 of 1935) and certain services under the Slaughter of Cattle and Sheep Act, 1934 (No. 42 of 1934).

The introduction of this Estimate is, in a sense, merely a formality. The Estimate for the amount required for unemployment insurance and unemployment assistance at the beginning of the year was necessarily prepared with some difficulty in view of the fact that this was the first year the unemployment assistance service was in full operation. It is not yet certain that the original Estimate will be exceeded, or even reached, and it is impossible to say exactly what the full amount required will be. As it is necessary, however, to ensure that there will be ample provision for payment of unemployment assistance, this Supplementary Estimate is being introduced. The increases arise under four headings. In the first instance, increased expenditure arises from the examination of applications for unemployment assistance from persons holding qualification certificates. Increased expenditure arises also because of the temporary assignment of senior officers and clerical assistants to appeals work during the year and their replacement at their normal stations; also, because certain work was done through the offices of the Department in preparing and maintaining information concerning unemployment for the purpose of the allocation of relief works. There was certain increased expenditure also upon telegrams and telephones.

The decrease under Appropriations-in-Aid is due to the fact that a small sum, due last year, which it was estimated would come into account this year, was, in fact, paid before the close of the last financial year. A somewhat similar sum arising this year, which it was estimated would be received next year, has, in fact, been received this year, but there is a small difference to be made up. Certain miscellaneous receipts will probably exceed the Estimate but it is felt desirable that we should have, against the Appropriations-in-Aid, an additional sum of £2,330 voted.

Apparently, the Minister does not consider that the House is entitled to any explanation as to why so little success has attended the efforts he is supposed to be making to find employment for the unemployed when he is forced to come here to ask for an additional amount to provide unemployment assistance for those to whom he and his colleagues promised employment. If the Minister is making any effort to carry out the promises of himself and his Party to the unemployed when they were seeking their votes, he should be coming here to inform us that he did not require anything like the sum originally voted by this House. The Minister ought to be ashamed, that after four years in office, as the Minister charged primarily with the responsibility of finding work for the workless—

On a point of order, I should be glad to have a ruling as to whether the question of the efforts being made to provide work for the unemployed is relevant to the debate on this Estimate.

Debate on that question would not be relevant on a Supplementary Estimate but incidental references would be permitted.

May I submit that, if the Minister had made the efforts which he promised to make and which he should have made to provide work for those who are unemployed, there would be no necessity for the additional sum which he now asks the House to vote. With respect to your ruling, A Chinn Comhairle, I think I am entitled to show that the Minister has absolutely failed to carry out the duties and responsibilities which were placed on his shoulders, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, by this House. As the Minister responsible for providing employment, in so far as it is possible to do so through the administration of his Department——

On a point of order, I submit that on this Supplementary Estimate I am responsible only for the administration of the Unemployment Assistance Acts and that that is the only matter which can be discussed.

Discussion on a Supplementary Estimate is confined to the matter contained in that Supplementary Estimate, and the purpose for which the money is asked. The allegation that the Minister did not carry out the duties imposed upon him as Minister for Industry and Commerce in respect of the provision of employment should be discussed on the Minister's vote.

May I submit that it is because the Minister's administration, so far as it applies to employment and to unemployment assistance, has been inefficient and because he has been unable to grapple with the problem, it has been necessary to come here and ask for an additional sum of £10,000. It must be remembered that this is the Minister who told the people that there would be no necessity for any unemployment assistance. Not only would there be no necessity for this £10,000, but there would be no necessity for unemployment assistance at all, because every unemployed man would be given work. The Minister, when he was Deputy Lemass, speaking at York Street on March 25th, 1927, said:

"Fianna Fáil believed that, if properly faced, the unemployment problem could be settled within 12 months."

Deputy Cooney, at a meeting at Grangegorman, having told his audience that they were going to make a saving of £2,000,000 on the Army——

I do not want to be perpetually raising points of order, but I want to say that I am prepared to discuss the question of unemployment, and the measures taken for the relief of unemployment, if you rule that these questions are relevant to this Estimate.

It would not be in order on this Estimate to discuss the measures taken or not taken to solve unemployment. The Supplementary Estimate deals with unemployment assistance and unemployment insurance.

I know it is not for you, Sir, to suggest to me what I am entitled to discuss on this Estimate, but I am quite certain the Minister would like that we should not be allowed to discuss it at all.

I am quite prepared to discuss unemployment.

I am not surprised at the Minister's unwillingness when he considers his performance for four years as contrasted with the promises made by himself and the President. He ought to be ashamed to come before the House and ask for this £10,000 after all the promises which were made. Of all the people they have betrayed, no betrayal has been so great as this. I submit, with respect to your ruling, A Chinn Comhairle, that it is because the Minister has failed to carry out his duty and his promises, we are asked to vote this sum of £10,000. If the Minister had been even partially successful, if he had found one-twentieth of the employment he promised, there would be no necessity for unemployment assistance. I submit that I am in order in adopting that line of argument. I submit that I am entitled to point out the vast difference between the Minister's promises and his performances.

On this particular Vote, the Minister's administration of unemployment assistance and unemployment insurance does arise. It is a Supplementary, not a main, Estimate. The efforts made by the Minister to fulfil alleged promises with regard to obtaining employment would arise on the Minister's vote, but not on this.

Very well, Sir, I accept that. I have no doubt we will have other opportunities to discuss the matter.

Deputies will have many opportunities.

And also to discuss the efforts of the Deputy to obstruct our endeavours to provide employment.

That does not now arise.

I have no doubt the Minister will find an excuse for the vast difference between his promises and his performances. He promised to have the whole problem solved inside 12 months. After four years there are 145,000 on the unemployment roll and there are many thousands of others, British ex-Servicemen, who, because of the regulation which the Minister's Department made, do not sign the roll—it would be no use for them to do so. On one memorable occasion the Minister told us:

"We have a cure for unemployment such as no other country has."

I had hopes that even after four years I might be able to get some statement from the Minister which would lead us to believe that at long last he saw some prospect of absorbing at least some of the unemployed at home and, therefore, avoid the necessity for asking this House to vote £10,000. I had hopes that the Minister would give us some information as regards the period order which he proposes to make this year. Perhaps the Minister will state when he proposes to give the House an opportunity of discussing the period order which he proposes to make. Are we to assume that the £10,000 has any relation whatever to the period order which the Minister is going to make? Has it any relation to the fact that it will be a period of eight months this year instead of what it was last year? Has it any relation to the fact that the period order will involve between 50,000 and 60,000 persons being laid off unemployment assistance?

It is open to the Deputy to provide time for such a discussion. There is a procedure laid down in the Act under which these Orders can be brought forward for discussion. I invite the Deputy to put down a resolution.

I will put down a resolution and very probably it will be reached in time for next year's Order. That is the sort of procedure the Minister would like to have. If I put down a resolution, will the Minister provide Government time in which to discuss it?

I am so anxious to find out the policy of the Party opposite that I would urge the provision of a whole day for discussion.

What about the Minister's own plan? Has that been lost, or did it ever exist? Apparently the Minister has so little hope in the famous Fianna Fáil plan, or in his own efforts, that the only hope he has to save him from coming to the House for additional sums, is that we will come to his assistance. Is that the position?

Put down a resolution.

What is the sense of asking us for our plan? Where is the famous plan for which you got all the votes at the last election? We do not hear anything about it now. What did you do with it?

It is in operation.

You have not yet had an opportunity of sending for the thousands who went to America?

America is a long way from the Supplementary Estimate.

It was the Minister who brought in this famous plan.

I accept your correction, Sir. Ministers opposite, when they have to admit that they failed completely in what they promised they were going to do, challenge Deputies on this side to declare what we would do. Does the Minister accept his responsibility, or does he not? Is that a confession of failure, a confession that the Minister is unable to face up to this problem, much less to solve it? Does the Minister deny that there are at least 50,000 more unemployed to-day than at the time when he took office?

Certainly. The suggestion is ridiculous.

If I said there were 1,000 more unemployed to-day, I expect the Minister would deny it also?

I would say there is a considerable number less unemployed.

The Minister always goes to extremes. When he does a thing he does it very well. He does not baulk at small obstacles. The fact is he has a very slight acquaintance with the truth in these matters. He goes so far as to suggest there are fewer unemployed, that there are more in employment than there were when he took up office.

That is not a suggestion—it is a fact.

It is a statement made by the Minister and therefore it could not be a fact. Does any member of the Labour Party accept that statement? I suggest to the Minister that if he had the same intimate touch with the unemployed that he had prior to becoming a Minister, he would not subscribe to that statement, particularly as regards his own constituency. I admit there are certain people who have found new employment in this country, in the Minister's own constituency, and the leader of the Labour Party told him on more than one occasion the type of employment it was. Does the Minister consider it is desirable employment? Is he prepared to produce any facts or figures to substantiate the statement that there are fewer unemployed now than there were four years ago?

I published a very elaborate report on it.

Can the Minister explain why there are 145,000 signing the register to-day? He knows just as well as I do that while there were certain people put into employment in certain industries it would not be an exaggeration to say that for every man put into employment there were at least three put out of employment. The Minister smiles at that. It shows how completely ignorant of the situation he is and it is perhaps an explanation as to why he takes these matters so lightheartedly.

Will the Deputy indicate from what industries, trades or occupations, these people were put out of employment?

The Minister knows quite well. I observe Deputy Smith smiling. Will he go to his constituents in Cavan and tell them that there are more people in employment there to-day than there were four years ago?

I hope the Deputy does not want to prevent me laughing?

Will the Minister try to take the matter seriously?

I am asking the Deputy to indicate the occupations in which people were put out of employment?

The Minister will find that information in the statements made by the 145,000 people whom he has compelled to go to the labour exchanges.

Will the Deputy state what occupations they held?

They are set out in detail on the forms provided by the Minister's Department. If he had any touch with the work of the Department he would have a complete grasp of the matter. It is because he has not a complete grasp and it is because he is deliberately closing his eyes to the facts or is completely ignorant of the situation in the country that he tries to get the House to accept his statement that there are fewer unemployed to-day. There are Deputies here who are in closer touch with the situation than the Minister and they are aware that there is less employment now. They know that one of the main sources of employment in rural areas, the work given by county councils on the roads, road-making and road-repairing, is nothing now in comparison with what it was five years ago. Does the Minister deny that?

Certainly, it is ridiculous.

I would like the Minister to consult some of his colleagues who are members of county councils and he should ask them to find out from the county council books and the county surveyors' reports what the comparison is between now and five years ago. Will the Minister undertake to get the comparison between the amount of road grants given to local authorities five years ago and the amount given to-day? If he does he will find that, with the exception of one year, the year in between the two elections when they were hoping by giving extra sums that they were going to get rid of the Labour Party, the Government have decreased the grants to local authorities very substantially. There is very much less employment than was given at that time, and the Minister knows it. The Minister has made no attempt to give any reasonable explanation of the fact that there are between 145,000 and 150,000 people unemployed. Now, on the assumption that 50,000 of these will be absorbed, the Minister is going to save £30,000 to £40,000 for the Minister for Finance, and that is what we get from a Government who were lavish in their promises of finding work or maintenance for the people.

Will the Minister tell us how many of those covered by the period Order of last year found employment. Has he any record of that and can he tell us for what length of time these people got work? Will the Minister also tell us what was before his mind when he fixed the period Order this year? Can he give us any information on these matters? The Government have acquired a new style recently when introducing Bills, Estimates, or Resolutions. They give no information whatever about them. Later, when they come to reply after discussion has taken place, they devote themselves merely to abuse of those who have the temerity to criticise them. According to the ruling of the Chair, this debate is rather tied down, but we will have another opportunity of going into the matter. I hope we will then get from the Minister something more satisfactory than the mere fact that 145,000 persons have signed the register, and that he will have something more to justify his plan than the mere statement that he has a scheme for absorbing the unemployed.

Deputy Morrissey said that when the Minister does a thing he does it very well. That may be faint praise, but notwithstanding that it cannot be said that Deputy Morrissey does things well. He complains that there is this increase in the Supplementary Estimate. Deputy Morrissey is a long time in this House, and he knows that every year Supplementary Estimates have to be introduced. The Minister went very near to the requisite amount, in his original Estimate for unemployment assistance, when he has now only to introduce a Supplementary Estimate for £10,000. It is not a big amount on an Estimate of nearly £1,750,000. Deputy Morrissey went on to attack the system in connection with the registration of unemployment. My answer to that is that during the previous Administration there was no proper register kept. He admitted that in the form now in existence the occupation and other details of the person registered are stated. Was there any such system in the days when Deputy McGilligan was Minister for Industry and Commerce?

Yes, there was.

Why was it not availed of? One of the reasons was because people had no hope of finding work. They had no opportunity of obtaining work under a Minister who said that people would die of starvation and that it was not the duty of the State to save them.

That is not so.

That statement was made by a previous Minister and has not been refuted.

The previous Administration is not under review now.

The statement was refuted. Ask Deputy Briscoe.

I made that statement and I will make it again.

Deputy Morrissey spoke of 145,000 persons being on the unemployment register. But there was no proper register under the previous Administration. People were in despair and there was wholesale emigration. Now there is no emigration; there is immigration, and an increase in the population of 30,000 a year for whom work has to be found. You have to provide a complete system of registration, and you have a table setting out in detail the occupation of the able-bodied men who are seeking work. There is a definite plan to solve the unemployment problem, and that plan is succeeding every day as rapidly in this State as any State could succeed which was resolutely facing up to the problem.

The solution of the problem cannot be discussed on this Estimate.

I am not going to speak of the solution of the problem. The Minister can deal with that, when the occasion arises. But, speaking upon this Estimate, I submit, in the first place, it is justifiable in order to provide unemployment assistance, and, secondly, that the registration thereof is working out as perfectly as any machinery controlled by a State could make it work, and is a tribute to the Minister who is in charge of the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Deputy Kennedy is evidently satisfied with what has been done. He says that £10,000 is not much where a necessity has to be met, but Deputy Kennedy did not tell us that that sum indicates in any way the measure of the necessity that has to be met. He says there is a complete register of the unemployed. So there is, but that is not much consolation to the unemployed. Suppose the register is exaggerated. Suppose that instead of 145,000 being unemployed we knock off 100,000 and leave 45,000 unemployed, is not that a problem for the Minister to take cognisance of? I am not satisfied that that problem is being solved, but I am not going to pursue that line of argument. There is sufficient material within the administration of unemployment assistance to keep anyone busy who would really tackle the problem. The condition of things is chaotic and confusing at present. No one knows what are a person's rights under the Unemployment Assistance Acts. First of all, there is unnecessary and undue delay in the granting of the qualification certificate. We were told that was to be got over, and that there were to be increased staffs, and that matters were to be expedited. We know to-day that men who have waited for months for qualification certificates are left, not alone without the benefits that should accrue to them, but are left without any chance of work that might come into their districts, because these very qualification certificates are not in their possession at the moment. We know, in the matter of appeals, that months elapse before they are decided. We were, also, told by the Minister, that there would be an augmented staff for dealing with these cases, and that there would be expedition in dealing with those appeal cases. Little or nothing has happened in that direction. There are hundreds of appeal cases still outstanding. Men with families are left without any chance of getting unemployment assistance, or of getting work, if work comes into the area, because they are not qualified under the regulations issued within the Unemployment Assistance Act. We also know that reports are sent in from time to time from various parts of the country with reference to certain people who are drawing unemployment assistance. A good many of those letters are unsigned. But what happens? Notice is immediately taken of those reports, and the person who is drawing unemployment assistance is immediately cut off from the benefits of the Act until such inquiries as the Department considers necessary are made. How long does it take to make those inquiries? It sometimes takes months. It is invariably a month or six weeks before the benefit is restored to the person in question. I know of one particular instance where a man in receipt of unemployment assistance went out into a neighbouring shrubbery to cut sticks in order to make a fire for himself and his family. He was reported as cutting sticks for sale. I know that man, and it took me something like two months or longer to get the unemployment assistance restored to him.

I know another case where a man was drawing unemployment assistance, and quite recently a Civic Guard called to tell him that a neighbouring lady agriculturist wanted a farm worker. He went to the farmer close by, and she told him she wanted an indoor man who could milk. This agricultural worker could not milk, and being a married man he had to live outside. What happened? The man was knocked off his unemployment assistance, simply because a Civic Guard called to tell him a neighbour needed an indoor agricultural worker. That man will probably have to wait six weeks or two months before that unemployment assistance is restored to him. I do not know whether or not Deputy Kennedy understands what is an indoor agricultural worker. Let me make it clear; he is an agricultural worker who lives indoor. If Deputy Kennedy is so satisfied with the manner in which the Unemployment Assistance Acts are administered he had better tell us about it in more detail than he gave us to-day. There is a period Order being made by the Minister. The Minister challenged Deputy Morrissey to put down a motion with reference to that. I do not think the Order is tabled in time to allow any person to put down an amendment or a motion in reference to it. I think the period Order had nearly expired on the last occasion before the Minister's Order was tabled.

It definitely had.

Mr. Hogan

I think the period had expired. Is the Minister going to try the same tactics again now? When is the period Order going to be tabled? Will it be tabled in sufficient time to allow somebody to table an amendment or a counter motion so that it may be considered in time to affect the period Order? The Minister makes no attempt to discover whether the period Order would have any relation to the districts in which it is expected to operate. I know districts where the period Order will operate, and the farmers are of such a type—I am not going to drag in the economic war— that they could not employ agricultural workers at all, and yet this period Order is going to operate in those areas. The Minister has made no attempt to administer unemployment assistance in the way in which it ought to be administered. I said that its administration is chaotic. I can give scores of cases to prove that. I have sent scores of cases to the Minister's Department, and have been met with stereotyped replies. I want to make it clear that I am not blaming the local offices. The local offices are bearing a very heavy burden. They are endeavouring to carry a weight which it was never intended that they should carry. I am not saying anything against the Minister's Department here for the method by which it is dealing with the matter. I am blaming the Minister in toto for not having given facilities for the administration of this Act. The present administration is chaotic and confusing.

The Minister will get this £10,000, and I am satisfied that the House would vote many additional thousands or tens of thousands for this particular purpose, and more willingly vote it, if they were satisfied that in the administration of the money voted it would fall into the proper hands and provide equitable relief. There are 140,000 or 150,000 unemployed in this State, and the unemployment assistance, if it were administered per capita, would give them something like £10 or £11 per head. Even if it were impartially administered it would go only a small way to provide anything like adequate assistance for the number of unfortunate unemployed that there is in the country. One looks at this particular Estimate as rather painful from the point of view of administrative expenses. Like Deputy Hogan, I do not want to make any reflection on the officials who administered this benefit, but it does strike one that the proportion of administrative expenses to the amount expended is extraordinarily high. In fact, out of every £6 or £7 that this House votes to relieve the unfortunate unemployed, administrative expenses amount to £1. In this particular Supplementary Estimate the provision for additional salaries is almost as big as the provision for additional relief. In addition to the already heavy administrative expenses in the shape of salaries, wages and allowances— £244,000—we have an extra £6,300; and we have an addition of £10,000 to the amount originally voted for the relief of the unemployed. It may be that that is not a fair way of putting it, but the administrative expenses appear rather big to the ordinary observer in proportion to the amount allocated.

Deputy Hogan said that the whole administration was chaotic. I think almost every Deputy who has had any experience of the situation will agree with him. There are numbers of people entitled to relief who find it extremely difficult to get it. Penalties for trivial breaches of regulations are severely enforced on some; others seem to be able to get away with particularly severe breaches of regulations and have their relief continued. Every Deputy knows of cases of men in receipt of relief who can, with impunity, break regulations. Nobody wants to publish it in the House or anywhere else, but I am sure that any Deputy who knows that a man is generally out of work, and finds that he has been guilty of a trivial breach of the regulations, is not going to bring it forward to that man's disadvantage; but under the system of administration the relief is in many cases denied to certain people for practically no breach whatever of the regulations. I can give instances, as also can other Deputies.

Deputy Kennedy said that at last we had a proper register and that there was no emigration—that we had provided for all the unemployed. Have we? Where did the 17,000 people that went to Great Britain last year come from? The fact is that we are almost back at the point as regards emigration at which we were before emigration to America was stopped, while in addition, we have to provide for 145,000 people under the system of unemployment assistance. No Deputy in this House, certainly no Deputy on this side of the House, will grudge the voting of any sum that we can afford for the relief of the unemployed. They will vote it willingly if they believe that the administration is going to be generally satisfactory. I do not believe there has been wilful discrimination as regards the administration of the money—I am not making that charge—but there should be general satisfaction as to the way in which it is administered.

To my mind, the whole unemployment question ought to be reviewed. The present system only touches the fringe of the problem. It does not help to the extent that one would expect, considering the sum voted. Many an unfortunate unemployed man is denied poor relief because he gets the niggardly sum of a couple of shillings in unemployment assistance. Looking at it from that point of view, it would strike anybody who studies the matter as curious that, notwithstanding the huge sum of £1,600,000 voted for unemployment assistance, there has been no inroad made whatever on the amount which has to be supplied in addition by local authorities in the way of poor relief. It has not got us anywhere.

There is a tendency lately, and I hope it will be developed, to incorporate regulations in the unemployment assistance system which make it obligatory on men to undertake certain work. One such experiment has been carried out in my county and I believe that others are being carried out in other counties under which men in receipt of unemployment assistance have to undertake certain work offered to them. I hope that system will be extended. It would have the effect to my mind of cutting down the expenditure to a great extent and would ensure that this relief work would be given to the most necessitous people.

Deputy Hogan said that there was undue delay in issuing the qualification certificates and I agree that there is. I know of many cases where men have been waiting for months before they could get these certificates which entitle them to unemployment assistance. There are numbers of unemployed persons who, despite every effort on their own part and on that of Deputies, have failed to get unemployment assistance. One does not like to criticise the Minister too much in regard to this matter, but it does seem that a complete remodelling of the whole system must take place if it is going to be satisfactory. I do not make the case that unemployment assistance, in whatever way it is administered, and no matter what sum the House can afford to vote for it, is going to make any serious inroad on the solution of the unemployment problem. It cannot be done by this method. Other methods will have to be adopted eventually to provide for the unemployed. However, we have to take things as we find them, as the Ceann Comhairle will not allow us to travel outside the Supplementary Estimate.

I should like, however, to urge that the principle adopted recently of engaging men on work rather than leaving them in idleness when in receipt of unemployment assistance should be generally extended. In that way we might arrive at a system under which this £1,600,000 would be very usefully expended. Perhaps if the regulations were somewhat more elastic there would be more general satisfaction in connection with the administration, and possibly a reduction in the overhead charges, because I believe that the vast overhead charges are to a great extent occasioned by needless insistence upon regulations in regard to trivial matters.

The whole system of unemployment assistance appears to any Deputy who studies it carefully to be practically useless in giving any satisfactory relief to the people concerned. Even if the sum voted were allocated pro rata, the amount would not suffice to give a couple of weeks' work to everyone. Some other solution of the unemployment problem is needed other than this, which is becoming almost a permanent item in our accounts. It is to be hoped that the day is not distant when Votes like this will only be necessary for a very reduced number of people and not for the huge number now requiring unemployment assistance.

I want to direct the Minister's attention to the position which has arisen in Cork arising out of slum clearance. On the 19th February I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce "if unemployment assistance at rates applicable to persons resident in Cork City will be paid to persons at present residing in the city who are being transferred to houses built outside the city boundary for the purpose of slum clearance." The Minister, of course, gave the only obvious answer, the one I anticipated. He said:

"The rates at which unemployment assistance may be paid to applicants are prescribed in the Schedule to the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1933. The persons resident in Cork City who are being transferred to houses built outside the county borough boundary will, therefore, from the date of their removal, be entitled to unemployment assistance at the rates prescribed for the district of their new residence. I have no power to increase these rates."

I agree that no Minister can foresee certain things that might arise out of the administration of any Act. It is because of that that so many amending Bills have to be brought in, not alone in this, but other Parliaments. But this is an exceptional case. I understand that the City Manager in Cork has been in communication with the Minister in reference to the matter. Everyone will admit that slum clearance is a very necessary thing, and that the housing of working-class people under decent conditions is not only necessary but highly desirable. If the Minister is able to grasp the position that I have put to him, I feel sure that he will do something to ameliorate the condition of the persons referred to in my question. The position is that the Cork Corporation, like the Corporation of Dublin, has embarked on large schemes to house the working-classes. The first thing that has to be done is to clear a slum area. The houses in those areas have to be demolished gradually, the occupants being provided with new houses in another area. It so happens in Cork that the new houses are erected at a place that is only slightly outside the borough boundary, and that all those who were in receipt of unemployment assistance when living in a slum area have been deprived of the benefit of the rate that applies to a city. I am in entire agreement with the Minister and with the policy that finds expression in one of the sections of the Unemployment Assistance Act, which provides different rates for large boroughs and rural areas. We in Cork, just as the people in Dublin, have suffered from the effects of the large influx of rural labourers into the city to swell the already overcrowded labour market. That influx is detrimental to many who have been resident in the city over a long period of years. I am not raising, and no citizen should raise, any objection to that influx, because it is only natural, I suppose, for people to gravitate from the rural areas into the cities. I applaud the action of the Minister when he does not encourage, or rather when the Act does not encourage, the migration of people into the cities, many of them no doubt being attracted to the cities by the extra money to be gained under the Act.

The case to which I have referred is one which demands serious consideration from the Minister. The suggestion that I would make to him is this, that the city rate should apply to those persons who have been removed from a slum area, certainly for some period that he could fix, say, five, six or seven years. Some of the people whom it is proposed to house in the new area object to leaving the city area. I think the Minister should consider this matter and, if necessary, introduce amending legislation to enable him to deal with the cases of those people. I believe that they are suffering a genuine hardship. They are industrious people, genuinely seeking work, and if the Minister makes inquiries from his officials he will find that my statement can be fully substantiated.

There is another point that I want to raise in connection with the whole scheme of administration. First of all, I want to pay a tribute to the officials of the employment exchange, and particularly the officials in Cork. They are most courteous and administer the Act without fear or favour. To my own personal knowledge, and to the knowledge of those who have at any time visited the office, I can say that those officials have never discriminated in any shape or form. They have very onerous and, at times, difficult duties to perform. They are subjected, both in public and private, to all kinds of abuse from people who believe that it is the officials who withhold the payment of moneys from them, and that they are not administering the Act as it should be administered. Times out of number many public men, including myself, have told those people that the officials are simply administering the Act and that it is not their duty to dictate policy. I think that I am not making too big a demand on the Minister when I ask him, in the interests of the officials, that he should have suitable notices put up in the offices which would save the officials a good deal of trouble and abuse. I may say that the abuse does not come from the man genuinely seeking employment, but usually from the man who has never worked and does not want to work. I am well acquainted with the habits and with the lives of honest working men, and I know they are not the class of person who would abuse an official in any Government Department.

On Thursday, at a meeting of the Cork Board of Assistance, a number of cases were presented to the board by the chief home assistance officer. These were the cases of people struck off unemployment assistance. They were making application for home assistance. I, and other public men, feel that it is unfair to transfer the obligation of maintaining these people back on the home assistance authorities. Numbers of them were told that when the Unemployment Assistance Act became operative, the stigma of having to seek home assistance would no longer be put on them. The position to-day is that numbers of those people are automatically thrown back on home assistance—on the rates in Cork City and in other cities which are high enough already without the Government of the country throwing over what is a national responsibility on the local ratepayers. I emphasise that in view of the fact that when the Unemployment Assistance Act was being put through the Dáil it was trumpeted all over the country that the amount that was being spent on home assistance would be considerably reduced, if not altogether abolished.

I just want to say a word in conclusion in regard to a number of temporary clerks who have been appointed in the Department. The duties that they perform are almost the same as those performed by established officials. The Minister is aware of the rates of pay they receive and that little or no opportunity is given to them to get established. I think the Minister might consider introducing a system with which I was conversant for a short time, one that operates in the British Civil Service. There, when it was found necessary to employ men in a temporary capacity, a limited competition was held afterwards for the purpose of enabling them to get established. At the examination marks were allotted to each subject according to the number of years' service that each candidate had. The temporary clerks for whom I speak have proved themselves to be very efficient, and I think it is due to them that their cases should get proper consideration. The principal officials might be consulted, and if they are I think it will be found that they will endorse what I have said as to the efficiency and so on of those temporary clerks. Their case, I think, is deserving of the best consideration of the Minister and of the Executive Council. In conclusion, I hope that the Minister will give special attention to the position in Cork created by slum clearance.

I had hoped yesterday that the meagre figure of £10,000 provided for unemployment would be increased, or that it might, at least, portend some further amelioration of the lot of the unemployed. The Minister told us this morning that this amount may not be necessary at all; that the original figure may not be reached. That is not surprising to anyone who is interested in the administration of unemployment assistance at present. Anyone who has taken an interest in the problem is quite satisfied that the Estimate already passed must have been so considerably conserved with the tightening up that took place, as to render any Supplementary Estimate unnecessary. Deputy Kennedy told us that the machinery is working splendidly, and is so satisfactory, if his view is to be taken, that any hope of an alteration of the system almost disappears. Any Deputy who says that the administration of unemployment assistance is working satisfactorily must have only a casual acquaintance with the question, and his information must assuredly have been derived from Dublin Castle. It is one of the fairy tales that we hear about how happily the scheme is working. It is like the smug complacency with which the officials over there, true to the old traditions, blandly say that there is nothing wrong; that the scheme is working magnificiently, considering the big strain upon it, and that it has never failed to respond to the best efforts of those administering it. People living in country districts, and moving amongst people who are supposed to benefit, think otherwise. I have no pleasure in attacking any particular Department. I say that the officials in the unemployment exchanges have been overworked since the inception of this Act, in a heroic effort to do the best possible for the Government and for the unemployed people, but I definitely charge the headquarters at Dublin Castle with having failed from the word "go" to appreciate their task, and in not having the courage to admit their failure.

Of course the Deputy must put the blame on the Minister, if blame is to be put.

I will relate it to that. I have more than once drawn the attention of the Minister to the matter and if he failed to take steps I have to blame the Minister. I am afraid he has accepted what has been "put across" him by the officials in Dublin Castle, who advised him that the £10,000 would not be necessary. It will not be necessary if they are going to continue the system of inquisition, which is becoming more intensive every day, and which is making this Act a curse instead of a blessing. People who were formerly entitled to home help are no longer entitled to it. They are like Mahommet's coffin, between earth and heaven. They have not been definitely turned down at the employment exchanges, but their applications have been adjourned. In the meantime they are not entitled to home help. The home assistance officers are afraid of being surcharged if relief is given to persons whose unemployment assistance has not been terminated. That continues for weeks, or perhaps months. I say that that cannot be justified. I will give an example of a case that I have had for several months. I took it to headquarters and I put a question to the Minister about it. The facts concern an unemployed man in the city of Limerick, a clerk, who is very competent for work, if he could get it, and who incidentally is a secretary of a Fianna Fáil Cumann. He is the son of a man who is working three-quarters time. There are several other members in the family to be sustained. They live in a slum. This young man was told on his qualification certificate that he was in receipt of 10/- a week. He was originally assessed at 6/- and wondered where the 6/- was coming from. He wrote several letters to the Department and then got a reassessment from the Civic Guards, the 6/- being increased to 10/-. He wonders where the 10/- is coming from. Under no circumstances can that young man draw one penny of unemployment assistance and no further appeal is allowed. That is typical of several cases I have in mind. One would consider that those with such a machine under their control would, at any rate, give a chance of appeal, and that there would be some sort of humanity tempered with justice, and consideration whether a man's parents could continue to maintain him, unless he was to be allowed to starve. That is typical of what is being done as the system is being administered.

Specious pretexts are made that the unemployed are not seeking employment. About 40 cases recently passed by the court of referees are held up by the officials in Dublin. I want to put the blame where it is entitled to be put. These cases have not been turned down, but are held up, and no money is being paid to the claimants. They are not entitled to home help if they are entitled to unemployment assistance. There is a danger of another Adrigole under such a system of administering the Act. I received a letter this morning from an applicant who went to the Civic Guard barracks to sign the ordinary form. He was asked if he had gone to seek employment from a farmer in the district. When he said not, as he was engaged to start on a relief scheme in a day or two, the Civic Guards would not sign his form. He then went to the district exchange and got a form from the manager in confirmation of his statement, but the Civic Guards refused to sign the application and the man cannot get benefit. The position of local authorities in this matter is not to be envied. They are aware of the contribution they are making, and they are aware that they are not getting benefit in respect of these contributions. As the applicants for assistance are not maintained by the employment exchanges they have to fall back upon the local authorities.

The employment period Orders have been referred to. The Minister asked that a motion should be put down dealing with them. I want to assert that there was not a chance of putting down a motion, because the Order was not placed on the Table last year until the time for challenging it had passed. I made inquiries and I found that the Order was not on the Table until the first period had expired. I hope that procedure will not be adopted again, and that Deputies will be able to challenge the matter in the House. It is certainly a system by which the Minister could save more than £10,000. Pork butchers, railwaymen, and carpenters were sent from the outskirts of a city into an agricultural district to look for agricultural labourers' work that was not there, to thin turnips or, as one applicant humorously put it, to shave the whiskers off meadows in a district in which there was not sufficient work for agricultural labourers. These men were struck off unemployment assistance and left to do the best they could, although it was known very well that there was no work available for them. The Minister never attempted to ascertain how many people got such employment. The number that got work was negligible, and as a result local authorities have had to pay out a greater amount than previously.

I should like to say that my invitation that the motion should be tabled was not extended to the Labour Party—we know where they stand—but to the Party opposite, because I am very anxious to know where they stand. My invitation was to Deputy Morrissey.

Will the Minister do it?

I am so anxious to know where they stand that I would nearly do it.

The Chair is anxious to hear Deputy Keyes. Deputy Keyes will proceed.

I should like to reendorse the appeal made by Deputy Anthony with regard to the temporary clerks in the employment exchanges. If the figure here is to be increased they should be included in it and some improvement in their conditions should be made. I certainly would welcome any increase that could be given to that particular section. I believe they have been very badly treated. Deputy Anthony said that the Minister was perfectly aware of the remuneration they were working for. I wonder is he. The people are working there for 38/11 per week, or perhaps it is 38/7 now with the deduction for the stamp. The Minister must realise that he is asking these clerks who are carrying out very important functions to work for a rate of wages that has been reduced from £2 5s. 0d. to £2 0s. 0d. and that there is also the deduction for the stamp. These clerks have been carrying out very important duties and have been training, to a big extent, the junior boys who passed into the Civil Service by examination. Their only compensation is that they are standing behind the hatch one day and they know that they may be in the queue the next day. There can be no proper standard of dignity there when the man in the queue knows that the man behind the hatch may be in the unemployed queue himself the next day, and he can say to the man behind the hatch: "You need not be so stiff; you will be signing up yourself some day." The Minister should take that into account and make some attempt to give some form of permanency to these positions, even though they might be non-pensionable. I think that he has promised that a qualifying examination will be held some time, and I sincerely hope that he will speed it up and give to these men a much-belated security of tenure in their jobs and at the same time increase their wage to some standard that would be in keeping with the importance of their work and the dignity of the Department they represent.

The Minister, in introducing this Estimate, informed us that it was the first employment year, if I recollect aright, that there was an element of speculation in the figure that was entered, that in consequence the sum of £10,000 additional was not much, although he was not in a position to say whether he would spend more than the sum that is now asked for or less. This Estimate was compiled, I should say, sometime about December of 1934, published in March, 1935, and after the experience of two or three months, when the Budget was before the Dáil last year, the Minister responsible for the Budget said that, with the concurrence of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, he proposed to exclude from the expenses £300,000 out of the Unemployment Assistance Vote. So we have, as I might say, an Estimate in December, consideration of the Estimate in the following March, and alteration of the Estimate in May; and now we want £10,000 more in February of 1936. The Minister certainly is well advised to adopt the attitude he adopted here to-day of wanting to know what is the policy of this Party, or the policy of individuals of this Party, when he is unaware of the business policy of his own Department. This particular service was to have cost us, and provision was only made for, £1,300,000 in May of last year. We get no explanation now as to the Minister's stupidity, or his lack of industry, or his lack of information, or his absolute indifference as to what he wanted, or what he knew he wanted. He has been praised by a member of his Party who is, I suppose, perhaps his opposite number in optimism in that Party when he says that he went very near the mark when he went £10,000 over the £1,300,000—losing all recollection of the acute Estimate that not alone the Minister but his colleague, the Minister for Finance, were satisfied they could do with in May of last year. There is one thing, too, that can be said about the Minister. There is the normal acceptance of a standard of truth, and the Minister has his acceptance of a standard of truth. There are those who say that you can divide the people into two classes the moral and the immoral; but there is a centre class, the non-moral—the people who do not understand what morals are. Deputy Kennedy, in the course of his remarks, mentioned what has been often denied in this House in reference to a statement of the Minister's predecessor, and yesterday we had the same story. Now, the standard of morality, as it has been pictured, is that whenever anybody from those benches over there, however stupid or intelligent, makes a statement, he says, "You must read that in its context; you cannot take it out of its context;" and whenever a statement is made over here, the context is eliminated and the statement altered to suit the arguments of the people opposite.

This Estimate deserves something more than the statement the Minister made in introducing it. It is more than merely an Estimate for £1,300,000, but the Minister gave us no explanation about that. In the course of the explanation given for the reduction of the amount last year, we were told that employment on relief work financed out of public moneys would be confined to persons entitled to receive unemployment assistance and that, since the Estimate was prepared, two employment periods had been made, and so forth, and that the Minister had decided, with the concurrence of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, that the figure for unemployment assistance might be reduced by £300,000; in other words, from £1,600,000 to £1,300,000. The Minister would have certainly owed it to the House to explain whether or not any one of those attempts to reduce this Vote had been made during the year. No member of any Party objects to a Vote of this sort if it be necessary. Every member of every Party ought to desire that it should be reduced in so far as employment can be given to people and an opportunity provided to people for the giving of employment. If the unemployment moneys have been expended and no reduction occurs in this Vote, then there is something wrong. The plan, if there ever was a plan, has been faulty. I have my doubts if there ever was a plan or if the Ministers knew anything about a plan, except possibly a political plan and they are adepts at that kind of plan just as they are adepts at denying anything, or affirming anything however untruthful it may be.

Deputy Anthony mentioned a type of case which I hope the Minister had not in mind when he was agreeing to this reduction by £300,000, and that was that, in the extension of boroughs, people might be persuaded to go outside and there would be a lesser drain on the unemployment insurance. If that is true, it is dishonest.

Perhaps I might be permitted to say that the matter to which Deputy Anthony referred is provided for in the Act and could not be altered except by an amendment of the Act, and I understand that it is not in order to discuss amending legislation.

I say that if that is so it is absolutely dishonest. It is not alone dishonest, but the Minister's interjection is absolutely contemptible. The gentlemen opposite can grow up in weight; they can attend banquets and expand their chests and the measurements of their clothing; but the unfortunate people who are moved out or persuaded to move out of a place like Cork or Dublin are told here:

"You cannot raise that because it means introducing legislation."

It can be raised at the appropriate time. This does not happen to be the time.

You are not in the Chair. Behave yourself.

Deputy Cosgrave knows nothing about what Deputy Anthony referred to.

I know all about it, and I know further that, through the Minister's lack of responsibility to this House, and through his incompetence, there are abuses in connection with this Act on the part of some people— and I am not even saying that they are political supporters of the Minister. There are very grave abuses on the part of the Minister towards other people and serious losses are sustained by those who are unable, perhaps, to make their case in connection with this Act, while abuses are occurring at the same time.

The Deputy knows these abuses?

The Minister will recollect this, that he is dealing with a man who has absolute contempt for his intellect. I am not going to be drawn off into that sort of thing. The Minister knows these abuses take place.

Does the Deputy?

The Minister knows it well. I have heard of those abuses in connection with one particular district, and I know the Minister and his colleagues in the Executive Council too well to have anything to do with that.

Is that immoral or amoral?

That is a deplorable state of affairs. I have absolutely no confidence in the honour or honesty of the Minister or his colleagues, but if, as I said, the Minister had in mind a saving such as is involved in the case mentioned by Deputy Anthony, it is a shocking confession. The very fact that he has stated that this requires legislation shows just how much he cares about it.

And it shows how groundless the Deputy's argument is.

If the Minister attended fewer banquets and paid more attention to his business, if he issued fewer threats and did more constructive work, it would be very much better for him. We have got a splendid explanation, a most lucid explanation of this Estimate. The Minister rides off in his usual flamboyant fashion with "What is your policy?" What is your administration? That is the question you have to answer. Might I remind the Minister that, in connection with the working of this unemployment insurance, it would be well for him to consider how he will get over the period between the unemployment of a person and his drawing of unemployment assistance. Men are not attracted, and cannot be attracted, by employment, if, by reason of that employment, they are going to lose money. The working man now has to make up how many weeks' employment he is going to get at a particular figure which will compensate him for the loss he is going to sustain by going off unemployment assistance.

What loss?

The loss of not being paid.

While he is employed?

No; after he has left his employment and before he gets unemployment assistance.

How long is that?

Does the Minister know?

Does the Deputy?

Does the Minister?

Of course I do.

It is the Minister's business to know. How long is it?

Does the Deputy know?

How long is it?

Look up the Act and find out.

I have my doubts about whether the Minister knows.

Some men have had to spend two or three days walking around Dublin.

The Minister could probably make a speech without answering the question. He could probably make a speech evading the question, or saying that he did not mean that, but the Minister will admit, anyhow, that there is a gap. Has he ever tried to fill it in?

In the average case there is no gap at all.

That is sufficient. I will make the Minister a present of his Estimate.

That is the law.

Deputy Morrissey in the course of his remarks referred to a phase of the administration of the Unemployment Assistance Act, upon which I also should like to comment, and that is the apparently growing practice of individuals throughout the country reporting neighbours as being working and, therefore, not entitled to the benefit of the Act. In many of these cases, so far as I can gather, the complaints are made anonymously, but notwithstanding the fact that they are made anonymously, and are not authenticated by the signature of any reliable or responsible person, the Department of Industry and Commerce appears to stop benefit immediately and to proceed to make inquiries into them.

I am not complaining at all of the right of the Department to make inquiries in a matter of that kind, but before any benefit is stopped the Department surely ought to be satisfied that the complaint made against the person is a bona-fide complaint, and so long as the anonymous complaints are received and so long as these complaints are not investigated there and then, it is impossible for the Department to be satisfied that a complaint is a bona-fide complaint. But even if one does make allowances for the fact that the Department on receipt of information of that kind must initiate inquiries, I do not think it is necessary for the Department to spend as long as it does in making those inquiries. Cases have come to my notice in my own constituency of persons who have had benefit stopped from them and months have elapsed before these inquiries have been completed. In reply to representations which I made to the Department in the matter, I have had two or three letters on the one subject saying that the inquiries were not yet completed and that the applicant's title to benefit had not, therefore, been established. It ought not to be necessary to spend two or three months in ascertaining the bona-fides of an anonymous complaint, and it ought not to be necessary to deprive an applicant of benefit for two or three months while investigating a complaint made anonymously by some person whose conception of public spirit and public honesty is to refuse to sign his name to a complaint against a neighbour.

If the Department receives complaints of that kind and feels that they must be investigated, surely the investigation should take place immediately and an unfortunate applicant for unemployment assistance benefit not be denied the right of continuing to draw his benefit until these vicious complaints, as they are in many cases, are examined and proved to be unfounded. The Department, I will concede, is quite justified in taking every step to prevent itself being mulcted in benefit to persons who are not entitled to it under the Act, but the Department ought not to find it necessary to spend so much time in carrying out these investigations. It would be serious in ordinary circumstances if an applicant, although deprived of unemployment assistance benefit, were able to obtain home assistance, but if the Minister or his Department have any experience of the attitude of boards of health throughout the country he will know that once a man has any prospect of getting benefit from the Unemployment Assistance Act there is not a ghost of a hope of his getting any home assistance benefit from the board of health, and many applicants whose claims to unemployment assistance have been held up because of the receipt of anonymous letters of this kind have found it necessary to go to the home assistance officers and the board of health, only to be refused any home assistance until such time as they get a definite decision from the employment exchange that they are not entitled to benefit under the provisions of the Unemployment Assistance Act.

That very fact makes it still more necessary for the Department of Industry and Commerce to expedite the consideration and the investigation of complaints received against persons who are claiming or drawing unemployment assistance benefit. I suggest to the Minister that is an aspect of the administration of the Unemployment Assistance Act that might well form the subject of a special conference between himself and those who are charged with administering the Act so that in future there will be less delay in investigating these claims and that there will be speedier decisions, because upon those speedy decisions depends whether the recipient of unemployment assistance benefit is going to receive what he is entitled to or be denied it. The Minister may, of course, say that if the claim is clear and the complaint found to be unjustified, the amount of benefit is paid retrospectively. I suggest that that is not adequate compensation. If a man has been deprived of unemployment assistance benefit of say 12/6 a week for four or five weeks, to give him four or five times 12/6 afterwards when the claim has been investigated does not at all compensate him for the anguish, the annoyance, the inconvenience and the hardship that he has endured during the weeks during which he has not been getting any unemployment assistance benefit or any income from any source. Any suggestion that the arrears would be paid retrospectively provides no adequate compensation for a man who for weeks has been deprived of any income whatever.

In this Estimate we are asked to add a sum of £13,000 odd to a sum of £1,500,000 for unemployment insurance and unemployment assistance benefit. While that is a very large sum in the aggregate, we have got to realise that when it is distributed over the thousands of persons who are getting unemployment assistance benefit and unemployment insurance benefit, it represents a very small income to each of the individual applicants. When we are considering the allocation of a sum of money of the dimensions set out here, I think we ought to hear from the Minister for Industry and Commerce what his plans are to render the spending of this money in this to be told whether the Government hope to be able to obviate, by the provision of schemes of work which will absorb unemployed persons, the necessity for spending this money. Some two years ago, accompanied by a great fanfare of publicity, it was announced that an inter-departmental committee had been set up for the purpose of considering novel schemes of public works. We had a declaration on the Budget this year that as a result of the operations of that committee and the production and implementation of the novel schemes of public works it would be necessary——

Of course the Minister's responsibility for providing employment does not arise on this Estimate.

In this instance we had an assurance given by the Minister for Finance that as a result of discussions between himself and the Minister for Industry and Commerce, it was hoped to be able to reduce unemployment assistance benefit this year, because these schemes of work were going to fructify. Now, Sir, since the unemployment assistance allocation was reduced in consequence of a statement of that kind, and since that is obviously a matter which arises in an issue of this kind, I was just making a reference to the matter.

Only a reference. We cannot discuss the Minister's responsibility for any schemes which he may have had in contemplation for the provision of employment. We can only discuss the administration of the Unemployment Assistance Act.

The House is being asked to vote a sum of £13,000 after it had been told in the Budget statement this year that the Estimate for unemployment assistance benefit this year would not need to be as high as last year, and that, in fact, it would not be necessary to exceed £1,500,000.

That is ingenious, I admit. It is an ingenious way of trying to discuss in a negative fashion the Minister's responsibility for providing employment. The Deputy can only make a reference to it.

Let me submit this point. If the Minister, having told the House on the Budget that only £1,500,000 would be necessary for the payment of unemployment assistance benefit, now comes to the House and asks for a further Supplementary Estimate, that, in my opinion, is necessary, because the Minister has not implemented the promises which he then indicated as being all that was required to prevent the Estimate exceeding £1,500,000.

It happens to be necessary because the Dáil passed the Unemployment Assistance Act. My concern is the administration of the Act as passed by the Dáil. The amount that has to be provided is determined by the provisions of the Act.

And the number of unemployed.

And the Yanks have not come back yet.

According to statistics issued by the Minister's Department, there are 143,000 persons registered as unemployed at exchanges throughout the country. If that number were 43,000 instead of 143,000 I suggest it would not be necessary for the Minister to come to the House looking for a Supplementary Estimate.

That can be discussed on the Minister's Vote in full detail.

If you rule that way I must accept your ruling, but I suggest the reason we are being asked to vote this additional money for unemployment assistance benefit is that the Government so far have not been able to produce any plan to absorb the 143,000 unemployed persons. The promises that the schemes provided by the inter-departmental committee would be implemented during the year not having been fulfilled it becomes necessary to come to the House again and ask for more money to pay unemployment assistance benefit. My complaint against the Minister is that if he were farseeing in the matter of administering the Unemployment Assistance Act he would go to the Executive Council and say, "It is far better from a national point of view to give me the money and to give me authority to put these people into productive employment. In that way I shall provide these people with a decent week's wages. I shall enrich the nation by utilising their energies, their intellect and their abilities, and I shall avoid the necessity of spending money in this way."

The Deputy having got that much off, will now come to the Estimate.

Recently, Sir, there has been an effort made by certain public representatives at meetings of the local authorities throughout the country and, I am sorry to say, in certain Press organs as well, to indicate that the unemployed do not want work. It would appear that an effort is being made sedulously to create an atmosphere throughout the country that the unemployed people do not want work so long as they can obtain the unemployment assistance benefit. Efforts have been made to try to show that the unemployed man is so unconcerned with his own physical sufferings, and the physical sufferings of his wife and children that he is prepared, instead of looking for work, to be content with drawing a miserable pittance each week in the form of unemployment assistance benefit. I want to say in this respect—as one who knows something of the feelings of the unemployed men, as one who knows something of their tireless quest for employment, and who knows the extremes to which they will go to find employment, as one who knows the unemployed men forced into unemployment by misfortune or industrial chaos—that I am convinced that the unemployed man has as high a conception of his responsibility to his wife and children as any other section of the community. Statements of that kind made about the unemployed people of this country are gross and unwarrantable libels upon them. If you want to know how false that libel is, if you want to find out any day whether the unemployed want work, all you have to do is to announce in the public Press or through the hoardings in the City that there are vacancies or jobs in any particular sphere of activity, and the moment that is done you will find that around the place where the work exists there will be formed a queue of the unemployed that could not be regulated even by the traffic police in Dublin. That is the test, and the real test, as to whether the unemployed people are anxious to obtain work. In my opinion, the unemployed man is particularly anxious to obtain work. No unemployed man with any regard for the sufferings of his wife and children could possibly bring himself to be content with the small benefit which he receives from the employment exchanges, having regard to the better rate of wages he could obtain if he were in employment and particularly in regular employment in an organised industry.

Of course we all know—it is only too evident—that in respect of tens of thousands of unemployed people to-day there is absolutely no employment available to them. I am sorry to say that in many areas and in whole tracts of the country there is little evidence that any employment more than an occasional day at casual work can be got. There are towns in my constituency where there is no prospect of employment for the able-bodied man, where there is no prospect of employment for the adolescents and where when persons grow to manhood they simply waste time there trying to find an occasional day's work or week's work. If one thinks of towns of that kind as communities which ought to provide proper and regular employment for the workers, one must confess that there is little evidence that they will be able, as at present organised and with the distribution of industry as it is, to provide employment for the workers available for employment. We have got to realise that not only had we a very serious pre-war hard-core of unemployment but to-day that hard-core has taken on a very substantial fringe and it looks as if the State recognises that unemployment as a problem is going to remain with us not as the hard-core that we knew in the pre-war days but with a substantial fringe which threatens to make the problem, so long as we approach it by the present provisions, one that will defy solution.

I should like to know from the Minister for Industry and Commerce, charged as he is with finding employment, what his proposals are in the way of providing adequate sums in the form of maintenance or providing, as the unemployed want, employment on reproductive schemes. The unemployed do not want charity. They want an opportunity of earning a decent week's wages so as to be able to provide for those dependent on them. We ought to have from a Minister who has come to the Dáil with an Estimate of this kind some indication as to what his plans are.

Not on this Estimate.

No, Sir, but my suggestion again is that if the Minister would only take my advice on this matter he would find it unnecessary to come to the Dáil with Estimates of this kind. However, I do not propose to argue that. I could if it were permissible, of course, call the Minister's attention to the very serious problem that the administration of the Unemployment Assistance Act is causing throughout the country in the matter of securing adequate rates of benefit and the difficulty even of obtaining these reduced benefits.

And if it were permissible I would reply.

The rates are provided by statute.

Yes, but my point is that it is almost impossible to get those rates. The rates are bad, but the handicaps and hurdles against the person seeking those maximum rates are such that he almost gives up in despair before he can get these rates of benefit. The Department of Industry and Commerce has fiendish methods of ascertaining what is the income of the applicants seeking benefit. His most meagre means are the subject of microscopic examination by the Department of Industry and Commerce. A fantastic valuation is put on the most trivial sources of income. The unemployed are unable to get the maximum provided in the Act. They are presumed to have sources of income known to nobody but to the officials of the Department of Industry and Commerce. Sources of income are assessed against him in the way of assets of which the applicant has no tangible knowledge. While there has been a substantial improvement in that respect recently, I would ask the Minister to have that matter examined with a view to taking the microscope further away from those intangible assets which the applicant is supposed to possess and in that way enable the unemployed to obtain the maximum benefits provided for them in the Act. The Minister in the course of his remarks referred to the employment benefit period.

He took very good care not to lay the Order on the table.

The Minister knows that the object of the legislation providing for the laying of Orders on the Table was defeated last year by the ingenious methods adopted by his Department. The Minister issued two employment period Orders which could have been annulled by this House, but these Orders were only tabled after the period had expired, so that whether the House annulled the Orders or not, the Minister would have succeeded in depriving people of the benefits of the Act. This year a similar Order is to be put into operation, and last week it was announced by the radio and by the Government Bureau and the Press that the Minister had made an employment period Order. Yet, that Order has not been tabled in this House even though the broadcasting authority, the Press and the Government Bureau announced it.

The Deputy knows all about it.

Though that Order is supposed to be placed on the Table for the information of the House it has not been placed there. The Minister says I know what is in the Order. Of course I know it. That has not been placed on the Table of the House, and I am told by the officers of the House that I cannot table a motion to remit the unemployment period Order because the Order has not yet been submitted to the House. Is not that a nice situation? The broadcasting authorities can announce the terms of the Order and the House does not know officially of its existence, while no amendment can be moved to the Order until such time as it is tabled in the House. What is the difficulty in the way of putting the Order on the Table of the House on the same day as it is sent to the broadcasting authorities, to the Press and to the Government Information Bureau? Is this another dodge, the same as last year, to prevent any discussion of the Order here? It is the grossest contempt of this House to distribute an Order of that kind in that manner without putting a copy on the Table so as to enable Deputies to exercise their right to move to have the Order annulled.

The Minister was able to get away with a very flimsy excuse for last year's grave dereliction of duty. I wonder what is the excuse this year for giving to everybody in the publicity line a copy of the employment period Order and not giving it to Deputies. That seems to indicate the manner in which the Minister interprets his responsibilities in respect of Orders which should be tabled in this House. I do not think that the Minister can congratulate himself on the zeal with which he performs the duties imposed upon him under the Act, nor can he congratulate himself on excessive delicacy in his relations with this House in that respect. Something should be done to table the employment period Order at once, so that a motion can be moved to annul it, and so that we can show that this employment period Order is simply a device to put thousands of people off unemployment assistance benefit without any investigation as to whether work is available for them or whether there is any prospect of their being able to obtain work. I do not want to pursue, at this stage, the iniquities of this employment period Order. I prefer to wait until we have an opportunity of tabling a motion on the matter.

As part of the Order comes into operation on Thursday, will the Minister address himself to that point? Does he propose to bring the Order into operation on Thursday next?

I suggest to the Minister, in conclusion, that the best way in which this employment problem can be tackled is by sitting down and working out that plan of which the Minister used, in other days, to tell us. I concede at once that there are more people in employment than there were three or four years ago. There are, however, more people out of employment now than there were three or four years ago. These are not inconsistent developments or tendencies. If we want to avoid the expenditure of large sums of money in this form and if we prefer to provide unemployed persons with work, that can only be done by somebody doing hard thinking and by tackling the unemployment problem on lines much more drastic and radical than those on which it is being tackled to-day. Yesterday and the day before we had a discussion as to what was the best market for our commodities. The best market, in my opinion, is the home market. But there are 143,000 persons unemployed in our home market. If we could put those people into productive employment and enable them to earn decent rates of wages, then the demand of that vast army of employed people for new goods and new services would open up here a market which would be much more valuable, in my opinion, than many of the foreign markets we have. I advise the Minister to devote some of his attention to this problem of providing work for the unemployed. There is more hope of a solution of the problem of unemployment along that line than along the line of periodic Supplementary Estimates of this kind. If the Minister wants, as apparently he does, judging by the Budget statement of the Minister for Finance, to reduce expenditure on unemployment assistance, that can best be done not by keeping the rates low, not by the device of employment period Orders, but by setting to work in real earnest to put unemployed persons into productive employment. If you do that, you will rescue from the hardships of unemployment and give a decent standard of living to these thousands of people and their dependents and you will improve the capacity of the home market to absorb our own goods. You will, thereby, be able to make better trade agreements with Great Britain or any other foreign country because of the bargaining position which you will have attained.

I should like to address the Minister as to what he proposes to do in connection with the Employment Period Order, which comes into operation on Thursday next in so far as occupiers of farms of £4 valuation are concerned. There are 1,400 small holders in County Galway. Quite a number of these people are in the Irish-speaking districts and they got unemployment assistance last year up to the 1st April. The Minister is pinching a month of that assistance off them this year. He proposes to begin to pinch it as from Thursday next. Are we not to have an opportunity of discussing why these smallholders in Galway are to be deprived of this assistance or why smallholders to the number of 8,000 or 10,000 throughout the country are to have unemployment assistance withdrawn from them in March of this year when they were paid it last year? That is a scandal, and I endorse Deputy Norton's protest against the Minister proceeding to take administrative action of this kind and giving the information to the Press while denying it officially to the House. There would be no opportunity whatever of discussing this matter but that it happens that this Estimate enables us to say a word or two about it. Deputy Corbett said yesterday with regard to the farmers — no doubt the farmers affected by this Act — that they were too lazy to work. I wonder if the Minister is applying this Order to the 1,400 smallholders in Galway on Thursday next in order to knock out of them some of the laziness which, Deputy Corbett says, has so developed in them that they will not work. We might be surprised, when we consider the way in which unemployment assistance is being withheld from such a large number of people in the City of Dublin for the purpose of putting them back on to the rates, and when we hear the complaints being made in so many different directions as to the difficulty of getting full benefit under the Unemployment Assistance Act — we might be surprised that it is necessary to bring in this Estimate. But when we know the conditions that exist throughout the country, we cannot be surprised at it. The Minister, as well as proposing to take the benefit of the Unemployment Assistance Act for practically four additional months this year from smallholders, is taking the benefit of the Unemployment Assistance Act in rural districts from agricultural labourers for an additional period of two months this year. Agricultural labourers got the benefit of the Unemployment Assistance Act last year in June and half of July. This year they will not get that benefit. What prospect is there of work being available in the country for agricultural labourers this year any more than last year? Has the Minister considered the position that existed among the agricultural labourers in June and July last year? He has provided us with information as to what that position was, but has he given any consideration as to what it means, particularly in relation to the order which he has now made depriving agricultural labourers during a month and a half in the beginning of the summer, in June and July, of the assistance that they got last year? Between 40,000 and 50,000 persons are affected. Money is going to be withheld during June of this year from 40,000 persons who got money last year. Into what position is he forcing these 40,000 people? What circumstances is he forcing them up against in order to secure their maintenance, their subsistence, during that period? The year 1935 ought to have been better than 1934 for the agricultural labourer. There were 70,000 more acres of wheat, 12,000 more acres of beet grown, but the Minister knows that the position was such that the labourers were no better off. There were 1,211 male agricultural labourers less able to get employment last year than the year before, in spite of the increase in the growing of wheat and beet.

No order was made relating to agricultural labourers.

So far as we can understand from the Press, the Minister has issued an employment Order in respect of agricultural labourers.

Single persons. If we had the Order we would know definitely.

Single men without dependents. It is not coming into force until 29th June. It relates in the main to sons of farmers living with their fathers on the farms.

Would not a single person living in Naas or Athy also be deprived of benefit during the continuance of this employment period order?

Not towns having local government.

Not if he lives inside the town boundary.

It deals with the same classes that were affected last year.

This only shows how necessary it is that an employment Order should not be put into force until we have an opportunity of discussing it. The Minister may be taking a selection of the 40,000 people I spoke about, but they are people who have to get subsistence of some kind or another, and we would like to hear from the Minister in greater detail that he is only affecting people who have a home and can get some kind of a bite from their parents. Nevertheless, he is depriving a considerable class of assistance under the Order which he has made public in the Press, at any rate, people who had a particular type of assistance given them last year. There was less employment available in agriculture for about 5,000 persons all round last year.

Nonsense.

If it is nonsense the Minister ought to explain the figures he has given us. He has told us there were 1,211 less adult male agricultural labourers in 1935 than there were in 1934.

The Deputy obviously cannot understand the figures. He should give up trying.

I may be wrong in taking a straight statement from the Minister and giving it its face value; I would be very often wrong if I did that. However, he has told us that and I have no doubt he will give us an opportunity of understanding his proposals better. There is another matter in the situation which to some extent has been referred to here and which is also an excuse why the Dáil has to face additional cost in connection with unemployment assistance. The Minister feels he has help from time to time if he can put up one of his back benchers to make an outrageous paraphrase of some statement of Deputy McGilligan when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Deputies on your side can make similar paraphrases of statements made by the occupants of these benches.

I want to make a few remarks about figures that the Minister has provided us with.

Will the Deputy now quote Deputy McGilligan's statement and not paraphrase it?

I will leave it to Deputy Briscoe to quote Deputy McGilligan's statement up to a point and I will leave it to someone else to ask him to continue reading and I will leave it to someone else to continue the reading when Deputy Briscoe refuses to do so over an inconvenient point. What I will say now is that Deputy McGilligan in his time provided more employment through the labour exchanges than the present Minister has been providing.

Nonsense. That is away from the point.

Again, it may be taking some of the Minister's plain statements at their face value——

Might I ask Deputy Mulcahy to request Deputy Briscoe to give the reference, the volume from which he has been quoting?

It is Volume 9, column 562. The Deputy might also read column 563 where Deputy McGilligan explains what he means. Have a good read outside now.

Deputy McGilligan provided more work through his labour exchanges than the present Minister while he was employing the labour exchanges in the same way. In the returns the Minister provides for occupational groups, in which he shows the number of vacancies provided every quarter through the labour exchanges, he told us that in the quarter ended 6th July, 1935, he filled 3,329 vacancies. At the end of the quarter there were 119,719 persons left registered as unemployed. In the last quarter of Deputy McGilligan's period of office, before the present Minister took over, he had filled vacancies through the labour exchanges to the number of 4,786, leaving 17,663 registered unemployed.

To what end does the Deputy relate all that on this Estimate?

I am giving some of the reasons which make the Estimate necessary.

I thought I had done that when introducing it?

The Minister failed to convince a lot of people.

Could you not work in the economic war?

The particulars I have given appealed to me as one of the reasons which make the thing necessary and I want to stuff these figures down the throat of Deputy Kennedy, who brings into this debate some old lies and exaggerations with regard to statements by Deputy McGilligan. I want to say that in his last two years of office, Deputy McGilligan was putting more men into employment through the machinery of the labour exchanges than the present Minister has done. I would be unfair to the Minister if I did not continue the particulars I was giving in order to show what the position was in the October quarter.

Deputy McGilligan's administration does not arise on this Estimate. Deputy Mulcahy ought to come to the Estimate under discussion.

With just one other remark, in order to be fair to the Minister——

The Deputy could not possibly do that but, of course, we understand what the Deputy is at.

The circumstances under which vacancies were filled at the labour exchange were exactly the same as during Deputy McGilligan's period of office.

The Deputy was told that the labour exchanges were not acting in that manner this year but on my instructions.

The Deputy cannot proceed on these lines on this Estimate. The matter he is trying to discuss can be properly raised on the Vote on Account, or on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Very good. One other point. When unemployment assistance is taken from certain people in Dublin they are put on relief work. When dealing with the Dublin Relief Bill I drew the attention of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to the want of co-operation that existed between those who were in charge of those works and the Board of Assistance in the City of Dublin. I should like to ask the Minister to say, when he takes unemployment assistance away from a man, drafting him on to relief work, in circumstances that bring him in less in a week while working than he would get while he was not working, what arrangement he has made to get the Board of Public Assistance in the city informed of the circumstances, so that when a man is thrown upon relief he may not have to crawl around in humiliating and distressing circumstances to find out exactly what his position is. If taken off unemployment assistance there ought to be machinery for transferring such a case immediately and directly to the board of assistance people. It ought not to be the lot of an unfortunate man to have to go around from one office to another, explaining his circumstances, and trying to find out where is the link that would put him in a position of getting the additional money that under the poor relief scheme he is entitled to get in order to keep his family.

It is well to remark that Deputy Mulcahy's reasoning on this subject is in striking contrast to what his reasoning was three years ago on a proposed extension of old age pensions. When that proposal was before the Dáil, Deputy Mulcahy was in terror lest even one person should get the old age pension if he had means. The Deputy died several deaths in his anxiety on that matter.

That persons with incomes of £1,000 should not get it.

Now he is prepared to take unlimited chances. What does it matter, he says, about the means of people applying for unemployment assistance?

I have not discussed that.

I do not want to delay the division on this question. I rose to ask the Minister if he has come to any decision on a particular problem that has arisen in fishing centres, and with regard to fishermen who being applicants for unemployment assistance were deprived of it apparently through a misunderstanding of the conditions that prevailed in the industry. I suppose these conditions prevail in other centres as well as Arklow. But in Arklow, at all events, you have this position. Men are offered employment in fishing boats. In order to qualify for unemployment assistance they have to accept that. They may go out and spend the night on a fishing boat but if there is no fish there is no reward. At the same time they are employed and, consequently, not entitled to unemployment assistance. That is obviously an anomaly; and what I cannot understand is why the local manager has not long ago brought the facts to the notice of the Minister. Recently the question has come to a crisis in Arklow, and the urban council passed a resolution calling the Minister's attention to it and asking him to rectify the anomaly. I should like to know whether the Minister has come to any decision thereon or whether special arrangements will be made to deal with the question. The case seems to suggest that there is often, at headquarters, insufficient appreciation of particular local conditions. That may lead to incorrect decisions in some cases. It seems to me that local officers should be required to observe peculiar facts of that kind, in their districts, and to report upon these facts; and that that should be one of the conditions of their service.

At the same time, I cannot say, from my experience, that the Unemployment Assistance Act is not being administered in a most careful and exact way. There have been unfortunate delays in particular cases. There have been a few cases of incorrect decisions but, generally speaking, and considering the immense complexity of the Act, and considering the great difficulty of getting entirely correct evidence, it seems to me a marvellous thing that the Act should be working so well. I think there is very great appreciation throughout the country, on the part of those drawing unemployment assistance, as to what is being done for them and as to the great sympathy with unemployed people which is being shown by those administering the Act. The last thing one will find amongst persons who have the advantage of the Act is any tendency to make general complaints in regard to it. It looks to me altogether unworthy to use this subject as an occasion for playing politics. It will always be a very difficult matter to administer such an Act; to get exact evidence, and to avoid delays. Considering the very great difficulties that may be expected, and the numerous interests that have to be considered in the administration of such an Act, I submit it is not at all a question on which there should be that nagging type of criticism we heard to-day, or in relation to which efforts should be made to score off the Minister.

It is very easy to make a speech of the type Deputy Norton made about the great advantage of having every man and woman in the country in employment; everybody realises that. And when he suggests that hard thinking should be engaged in, and that there should be an immense effort completely to cure unemployment, he is doing a thing that is very easy for him or anybody else to do. But no matter what may have been said in the past, I think it is evident that that hard thinking is required from every citizen who is interested in the problem. The great tribute that must be paid, I think, to the present Government in connection with the problem is that in face of such terrific depression in agriculture, in face of difficulties of a general kind that they have had to encounter, there has been a substantial increase in employment throughout the country, and that there is every indication that that increase is likely to continue in the future. Comparing the position in agriculture here with the position in England, a very gratifying fact emerges. In England last year there was a reduction of 60,000 in the number of agricultural labourers in regular employment, while here in the same year there was an increase in the number of agricultural labourers employed. It is very gratifying to find also that in the country as a whole there is an increase in employment, in face of the difficult circumstances which obtained during the last few years; it is a matter on which many countries would be glad to be in a position to pride themselves. In my opinion it shows that the Government is on the way towards reducing this unemployment problem, as we all hope, to the narrowest possible dimensions.

I propose, for the purpose of saving time, to suggest to Deputy Briscoe that now that I have got the relevant volume his bluff is called, and there is no use in repeating the hoary old statement about Deputy McGilligan; it will only waste time.

Deal with it.

The Deputy will not deal with it.

I have no intention of doing so.

In regard to administration, Deputy Kennedy made reference to an alleged statement by Deputy McGilligan. That was met by Deputy Mulcahy, and that closes the incident.

Am I to take it that this acrobatic volubility expert and veracity contortionist over there can just say: "Here is the volume; I do not propose to read it; your bluff is called"?

I do not propose to go into that. Deputy Dillon will continue.

I want first of all to refer to a practice which is growing in this House, and which I think ought to stop.

So long as it has something to do with the Estimate I do not mind.

I must ask the Minister to try to behave himself. He finds it difficult, but he ought to exert himself to the limit of his capacity. A practice is growing up here of referring in either laudatory or condemnatory terms to individual civil servants. I deplore that practice. The Minister is here to answer for his actions, and I think it ill-becomes Deputies to animadvert at great length on the shortcomings or merits of individual civil servants.

The Chair is always very careful that civil servants are not referred to in this House in such a way that the individual civil servants could be picked out or recognised. The Chair is very careful of that.

I am not alleging disorder at all. When I so desire, I shall raise the matter on a point of order. I am referring to a general trend in practice here, which I have a perfect right to deplore. I do deplore it. I think Deputies in this House should adhere strictly to attacks on the Minister.

The Deputy is making an indirect statement that references have been allowed to pass here by which the individuals in question could be recognised. That has not been allowed by the Chair on any occasion in this House.

I am making a statement which contains no indirect reference whatever. It is an expressed statement that I deplore the practice of drawing civil servants into the discussions here, and I exhort members of the House to confine themselves to attacks upon the Minister if they are dissatisfied with his Department, or to praise of the Minister if they are satisfied with his Department. I pass from that practice; it is highly undesirable from every point of view. What I am particularly concerned about is a more fundamental matter than has been touched upon by any Deputy who has spoken on this Estimate. What I apprehend is that the whole principle of unemployment assistance is becoming a discredit to this country——

That cannot be discussed on this Estimate.

——owing to the abuses that have arisen under the inefficient administration of the Minister for Industry and Commerce; abuses which made it necessary to provide £10,000 over and above the original Estimate; abuses which betrayed him into the folly of reducing the original Estimate by £3,000 on the occasion of the Budget. This Party stands unequivocally for the principle of unemployment assistance. Persons who are willing to work and are unable to find it are entitled to receive from the State such assistance as may be necessary to keep them in a reasonable standard of comfort until such work is forthcoming, but advanced social services of that kind cannot subsist without the cordial support of the whole community. At the present time there is no use in disguising the fact that there are numbers of persons up and down the country who are in receipt of unemployment assistance and who ought not to be getting it; they have no more claim to unemployment assistance than I have. There are other men who want unemployment assistance, and who ought to have it, but who do not seem to be able to get through the forest of red tape which surrounds the issuing of their qualification certificate, and their subsequent admission to benefit under the Unemployment Assistance Acts.

I do not want to minimise for a single moment the difficulties that must have beset the Minister and his Department in the setting up of the machinery in the early stages of this new departure, but a time is coming, if it has not already arrived, when we should have reached a degree of efficiency which would ensure that an applicant for his legal benefits under this Act would have them made available to him without undue delay. That is not happening.

Will the Deputy give particulars?

The time has also come when the machinery of investigation ought to be sufficiently effective to sort the wheat from the chaff. At present, as far as I can see, the system of investigation seems to be very much a hit and miss business.

Would the Deputy give some cases to justify his assertions?

When the Minister gets uneasy, and the unemployment assistance disbursements are causing alarm, he issues an ukase that steps must be taken to reduce the amount of the assistance. Then there is an examination of the means and circumstances of everyone holding a qualification certificate. That is, in my opinion, a great evil. It is a great evil not from a monetary point of view, because a few thousand pounds one way or the other are not going to make any permanent difference to the finances of the State, but from the point of view of shaking the confidence of the people of the country in the doctrine that unemployment assistance, in addition to unemployment insurance, is a desirable social service. The opinion is spreading abroad through the country that unemployment assistance is being made a slush fund for political purposes in this country, and that in every constituency where it is desired to promote the popularity of the Government money is allowed to flow very freely.

Name one of the constituencies.

On a point of order, is this relevant to the matter before the House?

I am solicitous to ensure that that impression will not spread, and that it will become clear to everybody that all Parties in this House stand for unemployment assistance for those that are entitled to it, and the rigorous exclusion from the benefits of the Act of anybody who should not get it.

Why criticise the investigation then?

I do not criticise the investigation; I welcome it. But I want the class of investigation which is designed to arrive at the merits of the individual applicant, and not primarily designed to relieve the burden on the Exchequer. That is what is happening at present, that endeavours are being made to weed out a number of people with the primary purpose of relieving the drain on the Exchequer and not of arriving at a true estimate of the rights of the individuals whose claims are being investigated.

Has the Deputy read the Act?

Will he tell us where the Minister has any function in the determination of claims?

The Minister will have an opportunity of replying later.

The Deputy has made an allegation that he should not have made without proof.

If the Minister is persuaded in the debate that the Court of Referees set up by him under the Act are not doing the work as it ought to be done, it is the Minister's duty to take such steps as may be necessary to alter that procedure.

It is the Court of Referees who decide appeals, not the Minister.

I do not purport to recommend legislation to amend the Principal Act, because it would not be relevant or in order to do so. My duty is to point out the abuses, and, without asking for immediate legislation, to leave it to the Minister to take such steps as may be effective to remove them.

What is the abuse?

The abuses are those which I have stated.

That the Minister is not doing something which the Act gives him no power to do.

The Minister is being disorderly.

And the Deputy is entirely irrelevant.

The third abuse that exists is that when a man goes off unemployment assistance, having got work, the business of getting back into benefit seems to take an interminable time, with the result that in rural Ireland now if you ask a man to take a job of work which will only last perhaps a week or ten days, the common answer is that he could not afford to take broken work of that kind because he would lose more of the unemployment assistance while trying to get back on to the register than he would earn in wages doing the broken work. That is common knowledge all over the country.

Have you seen an instance of that?

It is common knowledge.

Give an instance.

The Deputy knows full well that that complaint is being made and, instead of wrangling and snarling about giving instances, can he not ask Deputies of his own Party, who are familiar with rural conditions, and they will confirm what I say. There is no necessity to snarl and protest because we all feel sympathy with the Minister in the difficulties experienced in getting machinery of this kind to work effectively. What I am putting now is that he wants to look into the machinery whereby a man goes back on to unemployment assistance after enjoying a broken period of work, because if he does not two evils accrue: (1) a wholly unnecessary burden is put on the Exchequer by the man who remains on assistance when he could get work; and (2) that men are being demoralised in that they are deliberately abstaining from work which they conscientiously feel they ought to take when they get the offer, but they feel that to take it would cost them more than they would get in wages.

Name one case where that happened. Why does the Deputy make the allegation if he cannot name a case?

I tell you that it is true.

Where is the evidence?

If the Minister investigates it, he will find it is true. Several Deputies on his own benches from rural Ireland will tell him the same story. Of course, Deputy Briscoe knows nothing of rural conditions.

I know as much as the Deputy.

It applies in every part of rural Ireland — in Donegal, Mayo, Limerick, Roscommon, Leix and Offaly, Waterford, Wexford, all over Ireland. It arises because the machinery is breaking down in that regard. It may be possible to remedy that — I think it probably is — but it is something that requires a remedy and to which attention should be given without delay. We are now seeking an additional Estimate for unemployment assistance. I want to put it to the Government that this increased Estimate would be unnecessary if they would adopt the policy of their predecessors in office, and that is, without undertaking directly to employ men themselves, or, in addition to doing that, that they would take steps to stimulate other employment which would absorb these men, for whom this £10,000 provision is being made, in remunerative work. So far as my own constituency is concerned, I want to make a suggestion to the Minister.

It would be out of order on this Estimate. That has been ruled several times already.

In connection with my own constituency, I want to make a suggestion to the Minister that would materially help him in reducing the number of 13,800 people in receipt of unemployment assistance in Donegal.

Is this suggesting to the Minister means by which he can provide employment?

No. I shall outline my proposal lest it should appear that I want to avoid your ruling. What I am suggesting is that they should make remunerative the production of kelp. The next is that trade negotiations should be undertaken to secure a market for herrings.

This Estimate deals purely with the administration of the Unemployment Assistance Act.

It is not in order to suggest alternative means——

That is purely policy, which will arise on the Minister's Vote.

——whereby we will save £10,000 which the Minister is asking for?

On that basis you could discuss every means of providing employment.

The Minister asks for £10,000, and our lips are to be sealed as to any other method of relieving these people in that area.

The Deputy can discuss why the Minister should not get that sum because of past administration. The Deputy must relate the statement to some head of this Estimate.

I relate it to head J. The Minister requires £10,000 to relieve the distress of persons who cannot get work in Donegal.

It is to provide unemployment assistance.

I say these people are unemployed for certain reasons, and I want to suggest remedies in order that the £10,000 need not be voted.

That cannot be done on this Estimate. It may be done on another occasion.

Are we simply to say, when the Minister asks for £10,000: "Very well, you must have it"? Nobody can suggest any reasons——

The Deputy can suggest many reasons, but he must do so on the basis of the administration of the Act.

I say this £10,000 ought not to be asked for. Am I free to say that? I say it ought not to be asked for because there is abundant work for the men to do if the Minister will make——

The Deputy can say that the money should not be given because of the administration of the Act, but not because he is not seeking employment for them elsewhere by any other means.

It appears to me perfectly clear that if the Minister says: "If you do not like this Estimate, tell us how we can avoid it; if you do not like an increase, how am I to avoid it," I can reply: "There is another way; if you will allow employment to circulate out to them they will not require the assistance you propose to give them." That is what I want to do.

I cannot allow the Deputy to develop that.

Then I do not propose to pursue it further than saying that there are methods, particularly in the Gaeltacht, which could be profitably pursued to that end. However, as the Chair takes the view that we cannot discuss alternative methods of relieving distress, I do not propose to waste time pursuing it. I do, however, urge strongly on the Minister to investigate closely the question of the rural labourer who takes temporary work and is trying to get back on to unemployment assistance and finds it impossible to do so.

I desire to draw the Minister's attention to the serious position of the sailors and fishermen in the Arklow area and to the inconvenience caused to them. If a man refuses to go on a boat, he is refused unemployment benefit. When he does go on a boat and fails to get any share out of the fishing, he is also refused unemployment benefit. I have knowledge of one case as to which I should like the Minister or the Court of Referees to say where they got the particulars. They should send as a souvenir to the Minister for Fisheries the estimate of allowances that they make out for a man engaged on the share system on one of these boats going out for a night's fishing.

There is then the case of a man who has been working as a builder's labourer for the last two years. Previously he was a fisherman. He was refused assistance because he would not go on a particular boat. The man had not the equipment to go as a sailor. He had not either the oilskins or the top-boots. He appealed to the Court of Referees. It decided against him, holding that he had refused to take employment as a sailor on a particular boat on which, according to the Court of Referees, he could earn £4 to £5 a week. In the case that was referred to by Deputy Moore where men took the risk of going out in boats they did not get unemployment assistance, home help, or even a share out of these £5 a week earnings that the court of referees talks about. It must have very valuable information in its possession when it decides that a sailor, if he takes employment, can earn £5 a week. I think that the Minister for Lands and Fisheries, as well as the fishermen and sailors in Arklow, would be glad to have made available to them that source of information.

There is every reason why men of the class for whom I speak should not be treated in the way that they have been by the Court of Referees. They are genuinely seeking work, and are prepared to risk their lives in doing so, and when they cannot get any return for their labours, it is a shame that they should be refused unemployment assistance. I would be glad if the Minister would look into the case of these fishermen. People who understand the conditions are puzzled by the decision of the Court of Referees some of the members of which would not be able to distinguish a herring from a mackerel. It is absurd to say that a sailor can earn £5 a week.

My next case is that of a man living in a labourer's cottage in West Wicklow. He was employed on task work breaking stones for the county council. The Court of Referees decided that his income from the cottage and plot was 10/- a week. The members of the court who came to that decision are, in my opinion, losing their time. They should be Chancellors of the Exchequer. If their decision in that case is right, what must be the income of some of the people in Galway of whom we hear so much in this House living on holdings of £4 valuation? In my opinion, it is absurd to put an income of 10/- a week on a labourer's cottage and a half-acre plot in West Wicklow. It is as ridiculous as to say that fishermen can earn £5 a week. The conclusion one is driven to is that those who constitute the Court of Referees are not actuated by any sort of human feeling in coming to a decision in these cases.

As regards the new regulation dealing with the employment figure, I would ask the Minister to give special consideration to the Wicklow area. There is no work for young men or agricultural labourers in County Wicklow. Take the Avoca district. We had mines being worked there at one time. The young men unemployed there at present are not entitled to unemployment assistance. As a result, the County Wicklow Board of Health will have to try and give them some assistance to maintain themselves. In the Avoca district you have more than 50 or 60 young men ready to take work if it can be found for them. The few farmers in the district do very little tillage, and do not require any labourers. Wicklow is so far away from Carlow that it derives practically no advantage from the Government's schemes for the growing of sugar beet. I hope the Minister will pay special attention to the fact that we have a large number of agricultural labourers idle in the County Wicklow who are quite ready to take work if they can get it. The new regulation, when it comes into operation, is likely to deprive many people there of unemployment assistance.

I hope that, by introducing amending legislation or in some other way, the Minister will do something to make special provision for the fishermen in Arklow. They are men who are genuinely seeking work. I would ask the Minister to inquire why a particular boat was selected for those men to chance their lives in, and why they should be deprived of their unemployment assistance because they refused to go on it. The Minister might also ask the Court of Referees how it came to decide that a sailor can earn £5 a week. I admit that three or four years ago fishermen did earn up to £4 and £5 a week, but in late years their earnings have not been anything like that, not even 10/- a week in some cases.

I have also to bring to the notice of the Minister a case of a man in Bray. When he inquired why he was not getting unemployment assistance, he received a reply from the labour exchange manager that the matter was receiving attention. It was discovered afterwards that the delay was due to some mistake made at headquarters. In the meantime, the man was brought before the court for the non-payment of the rent of his house, and the board of health had to come to his assistance. It is quite easy to understand, of course, how a clerical error can take place where you are dealing with 150,000 applications. What should have been done in that case was to get a report from the manager of the employment exchange. If something like that had been done, this man would not have been kept waiting for two or three months for his unemployment assistance. I have nothing to say against the Act, but in connection with its administration we get a good many serious complaints. I hope the Minister will look into the cases that I have brought to his notice, where you have the Court of Referees deciding that sailors can earn up to £4 and £5 a week, and that a man in a labourer's cottage and half-acre plot is held to have an income of 10/- a week. Following these decisions, the persons concerned were deprived of their unemployment assistance. I hope the Minister will make special inquiries and see that steps are taken to give these people unemployment assistance.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Neill and Deputy Pattison rose.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce to conclude.

I have just a few words to say.

I understood it was arranged that the Minister was to conclude.

There was no such arrangement.

There was agreement to finish this supplementary estimate.

What I have to say will not preclude the Minister from concluding.

The object of the Deputy is to prevent me from replying to the statements that have been made from that side.

That is a disorderly and scandalous performance on the part of the Minister. There is no such intention on this side of the House.

The tactics of the Deputies opposite is to break agreements as soon as they are made.

Will the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary indicate with whom this agreement is supposed to have been made?

When I had a conversation with your Whips on Thursday it was understood that this Vote would be concluded to-day. As we are taking a Vote-on-Account next week we must get on with the business.

The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister have stated definitely that there was an agreement. I was speaking to Deputy Mulcahy within the last ten minutes and I am satisfied that there was no such agreement.

It is the usual tactics.

Surely before making the accusation the Minister ought to say if there was any such agreement. I say there was not. I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to say with whom he made the agreement.

He said that.

With whom?

With Deputy Mulcahy or the Whips of your Party.

Deputy Mulcahy said there was no such agreement.

Deputy O'Neill was sent into the House to prevent me replying.

The Minister wants to prevent the making of a case.

The Deputy is taking good care that I will not be able to speak.

It is a deliberate attempt to collar the Press over the week-end. The old trick.

I have no intention of impeding the business or of preventing the Minister from replying. I was certainly not sent in here to do so. I tried to get in earlier this morning and failed. I want to intervene now to draw special attention to a matter raised by Deputy Moore and by Deputy Everett with regard to persons engaged on fishing and where the Act militates against them getting benefits. Persons employed on fishing boats are immediately scheduled as "working". They may work for weeks without earning anything but in the meantime they lose the unemployment benefit. That is the position around the coast, and particularly in coastal towns like Arklow, Dungarvan, Kinsale, Bantry and other places. I am asking the Minister if he could take steps to see that no hardship will be inflicted on men who take employment fishing, but who are not earning. The easiest way to deal with the matter would be to substitute the word "earning" by the word "working". If a man gets employment on land he is looked upon as a wage earner, but a person who goes on a boat, either on change or on a share system, depending on the catch for a living, is in a very precarious position, and very often is weeks and weeks without earning a penny. Another fishing problem along the seaboard concerns persons scheduled as small farmers and cottiers. They come under the terms of the employment Order which comes into operation on next Thursday. If the terms of that Order are insisted upon they will inflict severe hardships on people in places like Hare Island, Stark Island and in the peninsula of Bere. These are all small necessitous people living along the seaboard.

Their valuations are over £4.

No, under £4.

Then they are not affected by the Order.

Some of them would be over £4. Valuations of £4 are very small. In County Cork we have 10,000 farmers with valuations of £4 and under living on the seaboard. Perhaps the Minister would be able to extend the limit beyond £4, and to bring in a larger number under the benefits of the Act. I also wish to refer to another type of coastal town employment. There is a class of employment known as "hobblers," who are engaged in the discharge of ships. Most of the work is of a temporary character or piece-work. As that class of work has been seriously affected, it is very hard to get men to take on such jobs. They do not want to take up that employment because they say that it takes three or four weeks before they can get on to the Exchange books again. The machinery should be speeded up and made more efficient as regards men who get temporary work, because three weeks is a long time to have to wait for assistance. These men are specialists at hobbling work, and rarely do any other class of work. Their chances of work being few and far between, they are severely handicapped by the regulations. There should be some provision introduced into the administration of the Act whereby instead of having appeals sent away for decision the local officers should be empowered to deal with them as far as temporary work is concerned. The people affected find it difficult to live while waiting for their money. They have no credit, and in the meantime cannot claim home assistance. There is a problem to be solved there, and it is weighing very severely on poor persons. Generally speaking, I have no criticism to offer on the general administration of the Act. As far as my experience goes local officers, in most cases, have been most sympathetic and have done their best in difficult circumstances to do their duty.

A number of points dealing with administration have been raised in the course of the debate, some of which are important, and with which I should like to deal. We had also a few general matters raised which I propose to dispose of in the first instance. We had Deputy Morrissey opening for the Party opposite, and giving an indication of the line they were likely to take in this debate; an indication which, perhaps, it was desirable to have. I have the utmost contempt for Deputies like Deputy Morrissey, who address themselves to the question of unemployment, and make it quite evident that their only interest in the unemployed is the votes they hope to get. Deputy Morrissey went so far as to repudiate any responsibility on his part of putting forward even one constructive suggestion for the easement of the position. He does not regard himself as a member of the council of the nation, called here to assist in the solution of the nation's problems. He regards himself merely as an agent of a political Party whose only purpose is to help that Party to get votes.

On a point of order. The Chair specifically ruled that no suggestion could be made in the course of the debate for the easement of the problem of unemployment. I asked leave to make three concrete suggestions, and the Minister promptly raised a point of order objecting, and he was sustained by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I then intimated my intention of departing from that and making these suggestions on another occasion, at the Minister's request.

I am not disputing that the Chair has ruled on that but I am pointing to the admission—and it cannot be disputed—of Deputy Morrissey and his Party that they do not regard themselves as being under any obligation to put forward proposals for the easement of unemployment. Therefore I invited him to put down a motion. I would be very much surprised to see such a motion forthcoming. I also invited him to indicate what was the policy of his Party on the question of employment period orders. We will possibly have a motion on that as we know where the Labour Party stand in relation to it. I am prepared to debate with them at any time the question of the justification of these orders. I want to know where the Party opposite stands. They are trying to maintain a position in which they can have a foot in each camp. Some Deputy like Deputy Morrissey will appear to advocate labour interests and another Deputy will advocate the contrary. We had from Deputy Dillon another display of his ability to stand up and make a pompous speech about something of which he knows nothing; a speech he could not have made if he had even read the Act, and which revealed from the beginning his ignorance of its provisions, and which was based entirely on his opening assumption, that the unemployment assistance fund was being used for political purposes. A slush fund for Fianna Fáil was how he described it. He stated that I issued orders that in some constituencies people were to be deprived of unemployment insurance benefit, and that in other constituencies the administration was not to be so strict.

If the Deputy were aware of the nature of the administration, or of the functions of the Minister in relation to the Act, he would know that these orders could not have been issued. I gave no instructions at any time concerning the manner in which the Act was to be administered, except the original instructions, the effect of which was to see that the intention of the Dáil was being carried out and that those people who, the Act prescribed, were entitled to unemployment assistance, would get it, and nobody else. It is as much the function of the Department to see that those who are not entitled to get it should not get it, as it is its function to see that those who are entitled to it do get it. The Minister has no power in connection with appeals against a refusal of unemployment assistance, nor has he any power to determine appeals concerning the granting of qualification certificates. The Act lays down a definite procedure for the determination of all those questions and leaves the Minister completely out of it. If a person is refused assistance he has an appeal to the Court of Referees. The courts of referees are not constituted on a political basis, as Deputy Dillon tried to convey. Each court consists, one half of persons nominated by organisations representative of the interests of employers, and the other half of persons nominated by organisations representative of the interests of the workers, and the chairman is usually a solicitor or barrister with a practice in the area in which the court operates. That is the body which deals with appeals. There is a further appeal from that body to the Umpire, but there is no appeal to the Minister, and Deputy Dillon's attempt to show that political considerations were in any way affecting the administration of the Act was merely typical of the statements Deputy Dillon makes, and typical of the kind of statement that is usually made from the opposite side.

We had a statement by Deputy Cosgrave to-day to the effect that Ministers over here are all dishonest, untruthful, stupid and amoral. That kind of statement is typical of the Party opposite. Their sole function seems to be to abuse Ministers and make all these stupid allegations concerning the administration of their Departments. It never seems to enter their heads that they should make any attempt to deal with the problems that Deputies are sent here to deal with, or to try to solve or overcome these problems and difficulties. They never have done so, and I suggest that their effectiveness here would be very much increased if they dropped all this personal abuse of individuals and these wild allegations of corruption and dishonesty, and tried to think of some way of dealing with the problems that the House is called upon to deal with. At any rate, they should at least attempt to find out the facts before they come here to abuse those who are trying to solve things for them. We had Deputy Mulcahy here to-day deliberately misrepresenting the information supplied to him by the House. I can come to no other conclusion, because explanations of that information were given to him within the past fortnight.

Is that an orderly observation, Sir?

A Deputy may not be charged with deliberate misrepresentation.

Well, then, I charge him with giving an interpretation of the figures which he must know is wrong.

Is that an orderly observation either, Sir?

No. It is the same thing.

Well, then, Sir, I will charge Deputy Mulcahy with inability to understand figures at any time. These employment period Orders, to which reference was made, are made for a definite reason. The Order which comes into operation next week is confined to persons owning land in excess of £4 valuation. These persons are excluded from unemployment assistance, as from next week, because of the reasonable assumption that anybody owning land to that extent cannot be unemployed at this time of the year; that upon these holdings there is work to be done, if the holdings are being worked by them, sufficient to make it impossible for them at the same time to be available for other employment if it were offered. That is a reasonable assumption, and I do not think it is seriously contended that it is not reasonable. The allegation which Deputy Mulcahy made against Deputy Corbett, that these farmers in County Galway, within that valuation, were too lazy to work, is typical of the accusations and abuse we are accustomed to from Cumann na nGaedheal speakers. Deputy Corbett said nothing of the kind. He said that there were certain farmers, who had not paid their annuities and were trying to pose as martyrs, who were within the description he gave of being too lazy to work or too interested in racehorses to attend to the work of their farms.

They cannot get work.

The small farmers in County Galway, who are the backbone of the Fianna Fáil Party and who constitute the main bulk of their supporters in that county, are amongst the hardest working people in this country, and because they are hard working and honest, they have shown their contempt for the people opposite.

I should say that Deputy Corbett also referred to the agricultural labourers of County Galway and said there was plenty of work for them.

Yes, there is plenty of work in this country for any man who wants to work. There is plenty of work for the ranchers if they want to work. I said that the Galway farmers were hard-working, decent people and that they had paid their annuities.

Deputy Morrissey had certain questions to ask about the unemployment register and the number of people employed. As a result of the measures taken, we have directly increased employment in this country by a substantial amount in the last year and the previous years. These measures are well known, and it is not necessary to reiterate them for Deputy Morrissey.

I think it is very necessary.

For example, when we were endeavouring to facilitate and make possible the establishment of an aluminium factory in Nenagh, Deputy Morrissey voted against it.

Against what?

Against the establishment of an aluminium factory in Nenagh.

That is not true, and the Minister knows it is not true.

I am prepared to accept the Deputy's word, with examination. At any rate, he was in the House when his Party voted against it, and perhaps he will explain his attitude on the occasion.

The Minister cannot have it both ways.

Perhaps Deputy Morrissey will explain his attitude when his Party voted against it.

That is always the way with the Minister. Whenever he is challenged he tries to twist and turn and get away from the point. The Minister made a charge against me which he cannot substantiate.

I published a short while ago a memorandum prepared by a committee of experts in my Department concerning the employment and unemployment position. I did so, not merely to provide information which would be of very definite value to persons seriously interested in these problems, but also to prevent misunderstandings of future statistics that might be made available. There are 140,000 or so persons upon the register of unemployed. To represent that number as being the total of persons unemployed in the country is entirely fallacious, and Deputies know that it is nothing of the kind.

Hear, hear! There are more.

That is entirely fallacious. There are less. A substantial number of those who are on the register are persons who are landholders or the sons of landholders living with their fathers, and these and other persons of that category are not and never were capable of being properly described as unemployed. The number of such persons is known now for the first time. It was never known before and there is no basis on which that register figure can be compared with the figure for any period previous to the coming into operation of the Unemployment Assistance Act. There is one method of comparison, perhaps, and that is with regard to the number of people entitled to unemployment insurance benefit; and that shows that in 1935 the number of such persons was reduced by about 15 or 16 per cent.

Because there were more people in work, and more people in work for longer periods.

Because they had exhausted their right to benefit.

Let us take the total register and analyse it. There was a small increase at the beginning of this year as compared with the beginning of last year. The whole of that increase took place in Connaught, and is entirely due to the fact that there is a larger number of people in Connaught, consequent upon the stoppage of emigration and to the circumstances which exist there, which are well known to Deputies. There was no increase in the number upon the register for the county boroughs and urban areas. In the province of Leinster, exclusive of the county boroughs, there was a definite decrease in the number registered. There was a similar decrease in the province of Munster, exclusive of the county boroughs. Deputy Morrissey could have got these figures for himself. Instead of that, he chose to misrepresent the position by his assertion that the number of persons unemployed in these areas in Munster had considerably increased.

He went on further to say that although we had put persons into employment in industry, for every one person put into employment, we had put three persons out. I asked Deputy Morrissey to tell us the occupations from which they had been put out of employment. He did not answer the question, and he cannot answer it, because it is not true, as the total number of persons in employment has increased. We can get separate figures for each occupation and show that all over there was an increase. In last year, 1935, as compared with 1934, the average number of persons employed each week was higher by 13,000. That information is available to Deputies but they chose to ignore it. Their one anxiety is to try to belittle the country, to destroy its credit, to do all the damage they can, in the hope that, in consequence of that damage, they may get some additional political support. It is a completely reckless, unpatriotic and scandalous performance they give us on all occasions upon which the opportunity is offered to them.

There is an unemployment problem here, and it is because there is an unemployment problem here that the Unemployment Assistance Act was passed and various exceptional and extraordinary measures for dealing with that problem have been adopted by the Government. The Government is sincerely anxious to take any step possible for it to take to relieve that situation. We had perhaps at some time the vain hope that Deputies opposite would feel compelled to co-operate with us on that one matter, if on no other, but, instead of that we are getting their wrecking tactics and their continuous obstructive efforts to defeat the plans we have adopted, for purely Party ends. Deputy Dillon tells us pompously that his Party accepts the principle of the Unemployment Assistance Act, but they tried to prevent us from getting the money to enable unemployment assistance to be paid. All during last summer, they continued their obstructive campaign to prevent that money being provided and then they tell us they stand by the principle of it. Humbug and hypocrisy!

I want to deal now with matters of importance that were raised by Deputies who seriously addressed themselves to the administration of unemployment assistance. The question of the application of the Unemployment Assistance Act to fishermen is having consideration. It is a complicated matter and I cannot say yet what modifications in the existing regulations may be necessary. The only Arklow case, however, of which I am aware, is one which raised no question of principle at all. It was reported that fishermen in Arklow had refused employment in fishing. Assistance was suspended and the case went to the Court of Referees. On the first occasion the applicants themselves failed to make their case, but subsequently new evidence was brought forward by them, and, on the basis of that new evidence, their cases were allowed by the Court of Referees. It is entirely untrue to say that there is any unreasonable delay at the present time in the investigation of claims or in the determination of appeals.

There was, I admit, some time ago a very considerable accumulation of appeal cases when the existing machinery was inadequate to dispose of these cases, and on that account we changed the machinery. We brought in here an amending Act and set up a new appeals procedure. That new appeals procedure has worked as we intended it should work. We said that that machinery would be used in an endeavour to clear off the arrears at the rate of 2,000 a week. It succeeded in doing that, and there are now no appeals outstanding, except those of quite recent date. It is not true that persons who got spells of employment are compelled to wait for a long period after the conclusion of that employment before again becoming entitled to unemployment assistance, and before getting unemployment assistance.

It is true.

If the period of employment does not exceed six weeks the person is entitled to unemployment assistance as from the date upon which the period of employment ends. In a minority of cases there may be delay of a short period while investigations are being made and inquiries conducted, but in the great majority of cases there is no delay, and if there should be such delay the amount due as from the date on which employment ended is paid retrospectively. Nor should there be any difficulty, if an investigation takes time, in dealing with these cases through the home assistance authorities. The home assistance authorities have complete discretion in the granting of home assistance, and the Act which we passed last year provides for the repayment to these authorities, if they so claim, of the amount of any assistance they have given from the accumulation of unemployment assistance payable, if and when the case is decided in the applicant's favour.

But people cannot get home assistance from the authorities.

Anonymous letters are received and it is not possible for the Department to ignore the information in them. They are made the basis of investigation and I may say that our experience has been that in the great majority of cases the information has been shown to be accurate. But the amount of information that comes through anonymous letters is only a small part of the information that comes to the Department concerning particular cases from other sources. There are quite a number of citizens in the country who feel it their duty, unlike Deputy Cosgrave, to bring directly to the notice of the Department any cases of abuse that come to their notice, and, on the basis of these allegations or complaints, investigations are instituted, but they are carried out in a perfectly fair manner. The facts are examined by the unemployment assistance officer, in the first instance, and he makes his decision. If the applicant is not satisfied, there is an appeal to the Court of Referees, and the Court of Referees is entirely free from departmental influence.

What about the delay?

Deputy Anthony referred to the circumstances prevailing in Cork where certain people were being transferred outside the borough boundary. The Act provides for different rates of assistance within and outside the borough boundary, and I have no power to pay the borough rate outside the borough boundary area. Any alteration in that position would require an amendment of the Act. An amendment of the Act, however, would not get rid of that problem, because, so long as you have different rates of assistance, there must be a boundary somewhere, and there will be one person inside the area and another outside, and the circumstances of such persons might well be the same. That situation in Cork appears to me to be best capable of being remedied by an extension of the borough boundary, which. I understand, can be accomplished through the Department of Local Government. If the boundary is extended, the Act of 1935 gives us power to pay forthwith to the persons in the added area the appropriate rates.

The matter of the temporary clerks is at present being dealt with. I agree that there is some case for providing means by which these clerks could hope to be made, in due course, permanent officers of the Department. There are, however, the Civil Service (Regulation) Acts which prescribe that any permanent officers of the Government must be recruited through the Civil Service Commissioners and by competitive examination.

It may be a limited competitive examination.

That is more a matter for the Minister for Finance, who controls the Civil Service, than for me. Deputy Bennett referred to the cost of administration as shown in this Estimate, and related that to the amount of unemployment assistance paid. That was an entirely misleading calculation. The amount provided for administration in this Estimate covers not merely the administration of unemployment assistance, but also the administration of unemployment insurance, the administration of the labour exchanges themselves, the administration of the functions of the Department in relation to relief schemes, the distribution of beef vouchers and a number of other matters. The total amount shown there has no relation to the amount of unemployment assistance, and, in fact, having regard to the extent of the service, the administration, in my opinion, is extraordinarily cheap. Some Deputies will allege that it is too cheap.

Portion of it is too cheap—the temporary clerks portion.

There were a few other matters raised by Deputy Mulcahy, but I have not time to deal with them.

Go ahead.

I think I have dealt with most of the matters of importance and have satisfied any reasonable person that the administration of the Department is as reasonably efficient as it is possible to make it in the circumstances. I explained at the beginning that the introduction of this Supplementary Estimate is purely a formality. It may or may not happen that the amount to be paid in unemployment assistance will exceed the total of the Estimate as originally introduced, but it is possible that we will not reach the total of the Estimate as originally introduced. It is necessary, however, to be sure that the money will be available to pay whatever unemployment assistance claims are acknowledged between now and the end of the financial year. That is why this money is necessary, but, in fact, the money provided already may not have to be expended.

Would the Minister say when he proposes to lay on the Table the employment period Order which he has made?

The only reason for delay between the date on which the Order was made and its being laid on the Table is the fact that it has to be translated and printed. When that is done, it will be laid on the Table. It will certainly be there before next week.

I think the Minister will agree that on principle it is undesirable that such an Order should be made and scheduled to come into operation, as a general rule, before the opportunity is given of raising it in the House.

Estimate agreed to and reported.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 4th March, 1936.

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