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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Apr 1936

Vol. 61 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 57—Industry and Commerce.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná suim ná raghaidh tar £303,545 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le Coiste Comhairlitheach na Rátaí, agus Ildeontaisí i gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £303,545 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including the Rates Advisory Committee, and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

In moving this Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce, it is difficult to contemplate giving anything like a detailed review of the work done by the Department during the course of the past year except one were to make a very long speech involving a number of detailed particulars. The function of the Department of Industry and Commerce extends over a very wide field and its activities are very varied; attempting to deal with them all would be a very big task. I do not think it has been the practice of the Minister to do that. On some occasions in the past it was generally understood that the occasion of this Estimate would be used for the purpose of debating some particular aspect of the Minister's policy and on other occasions the discussion ranged over a very wide field. On this occasion I note that a motion to refer back the Estimate has been tabled. But I have not been informed that any particular aspect of the work of the Department is responsible for that motion. I take it that it is desired to discuss any matter that may seem pertinent to Deputies. I am quite prepared to contemplate such a discussion but Deputies will understand that it is not possible for me in advance to give in relation to particular branches of the Department in which they are most interested the information they desire, because I have not been informed what these branches are. There are, however, certain broad aspects of the work of the Department which are, I am sure, generally understood, and it is in connection with these that I propose to give that review of our work during the past year which is customary on these occasions.

The major function of the Department at the present time, as Deputies know, is to stimulate and develop industry. Although the Minister for Industry and Commerce has functions of various kinds, he is, in the public eye at any rate, primarily Minister for Industry, and his principal function is to stimulate industrial development and, generally, to secure the establishment of the conditions which will permit industrial development taking place as rapidly and as satisfactorily as possible. The progress made in industry during the course of the past year has been at least not less than in the previous years. On this occasion last year, when moving the Vote for my Department, I gave at considerable length a review of the position in respect of many branches of industry. I do not wish to repeat that performance on this occasion, although I intend giving a sort of general review, first, because it is my duty on this occasion to give such a review, and secondly, because I know it always annoys members of the Opposition. Since this programme of intensive industrial development was put into operation in 1932, there has been established in the Saorstát a large number of new concerns. It is, however, necessary to repeat here what I have said before, that the measure of our industrial progress is not the number of new factories opened, because, to a much greater extent, that progress took the form of the extension of existing concerns, the increase in their production, or additions to their plant and equipment. For some reason, however, some people seem to regard as the index of our industrial development the number of new factories established. It is not easy to give a precise figure for that. There is, of course, maintained under the Factories and Workshops Acts a register of factories and workshops, and every factory and workshop opened in the Saorstát must be entered in that register. Since March, 1932, the number of new factories and workshops opened in the Saorstát and recorded in that register is over 700. Of these 700 new factories and workshops, 532 were opened in protected industries. That figure, I think, is satisfactory and is indicative of a considerable extension in production, even if one were not to go to the other sources of information for the purpose of finding out what has happened. For the information of Deputies, and particularly of those who have been expressing themselves in public upon the nature of the employment given in factories and workshops of the Saorstát, I should like to point out that, of a total number of 70,000 persons employed in protected industries in the Saorstát, over 81 per cent. are adults. Only 19 per cent. of those employed are under 18 years of age, and 81 per cent., or more than four out of every five, are adult persons, and of these adult persons, more than 56 per cent. are males. There is there indicated a comparatively high percentage of female adult labour employed, and that figure may be of interest to Deputies who will remember our discussions upon that matter during the occasion of the passage of the Conditions of Employment Act. Persons, however, who have been led to believe that Irish industrial progress has taken the form of the employment of juvenile labour in small factories will be interested to get that figure which I have given them—a total of 70,000 people employed in these industries, of whom 81 per cent. are adult.

Taking the various industrial groups one by one for the purpose of examining the position, one finds that, while a very considerable amount of progress has been made, we are by no means at the end of the road that we have set out to travel. There is still considerable room for development in many of the groups of industries which exist here, apart altogether from the new industries that may possibly be established in the future. In the apparel group—the industries interested in the production of men's and women's wearing apparel other than hosiery or boots and shoes—employment at the 1st of September of 1935 was over 19,000 persons. That figure, I think, represents in a very striking way the progress which has been made in that group of industries. In 1931, the goods in the apparel group which were imported were valued at over £5,000,000. In 1935, that import of apparel had been reduced in value to something less than £2,000,000. There is, nevertheless, almost £2,000,000 worth of one class of apparel or another being imported. That figure will give an indication to interested parties of the extent to which there is room for further progress in that group of industries. The boot and shoe industry has continued at an accelerated pace the progress which we were able to record in previous years. There are now 22 boot and shoe factories operating in the Saorstát, of which six commenced operations during the past 12 months. The employment afforded by the industry is over 4,500 persons. Arrangements have been made, and are in fact in an advanced stage, for the establishment of five additional factories in various parts of the Saorstát in the immediate future. Certainly, the production of goods from these factories will commence during the present year. In the hosiery group there is also room for further development. Last year our imports of hosiery goods were valued at £300,000, and although that figure should be compared with the figure of £1,000,000 for 1931, there is still evidence of room for further development. Employment in the hosiery industry is now over 4,000 persons.

In the group of industries which come under the general heading of food, drink, and tobacco, employment in September of 1935 was over 16,250. Most of the industries in that group have reached the point at which further expansion is not to be expected. They are supplying in full the requirements of the country, and a further increase in employment in the industry is not likely, although there was an increase recorded during the past year of over 200 as compared with 1934.

In the textile group of industries— those factories that are concerned with the manufacture of textiles of one kind or another—employment in September of last year was 5,700. In that group there is perhaps more room for new development than in any other. The importation of textile goods of one kind or another during the past year was very considerable, and, in fact, because of the development of other industries —particularly of the apparel industries —our importation of textiles has been increasing very substantially during the past few years. Arrangements have been made, however, for the increased production on a large scale of cotton goods and also of various classes of woollen and worsted goods not now produced in the Sarstát. We hope that by the end of next year there will have been very substantial improvement in the position in respect of that industry; that is, a very considerable reduction in imports and an increase in the employment afforded here.

The various metal manufacturing industries employed over 8,000 persons on the 1st September last year, a number which represented an increase of about 12 per cent. on the previous year. As Deputies will have read in the Press, arrangements have been made for the establishment of new industries in that group, arrangements which are now being brought into operation, and a further expansion in the production of these industries and in the employment given by them can be expected in the near future.

During the course of 1935 there were a number of new industries established, that is industries of a kind which did not previously exist in the Saorstát. Perhaps I may be excused if I refer briefly to the nature of these industries for the purpose of indicating the variety of them and because of the fact that we have been fairly successful, on the whole, in securing that these industries were established in different parts of the Saorstát and not concentrated in one or two of the larger cities and towns. The establishment of a mill for the production of cloth for cotton flour bags was effected at Slane, in County Meath. Bakelite products are being manufactured at Nenagh, in County Tipperary, and in Bray, County Wicklow—household goods in the first instance, and electric equipment in the second instance.

I mentioned that five new boot and shoe factories have been established. These are in different parts of the Saorstát. The manufacture of rubber boots and shoes was commenced during the year in Cork. The development of the boot and shoe industry made possible the establishment of a number of subsidiary industries for supplying goods required by the boot and shoe manufacturers. The manufacture of boot and shoe lasts of wood was commenced at Newbridge. Boot and shoe laces and elastic are being manufactured at Ennis in County Clare. The production of calcium carbide was commenced at Askeaton. Arising from that, a factory was established in Dublin for the production of industrial gases—oxygen and acetylene and similar gases. New factories were set up for the production of card-board containers. There is still a not inconsiderable import of card-board containers, mainly of a specialised type, but some factories recently established for the production of these will, we hope, cut in on that import figure to a substantial extent during the course of the present year.

The production of shot-gun cartridges was commenced at Galway. During the year some firms in Dublin commenced the assembling of clocks, both ordinary and electric, from imported parts. The drawing of copper tubes, for the production of copper tubing for housing purposes, was commenced at Galway and Deputies who attend here regularly are well aware that the manufacture of cotton thread was commenced at Westport. A factory was established at Newbridge for the production of cutlery, and dairy engineering equipment is being manufactured at Dublin. At Bray, in the County Wicklow, a new factory for the production of electric lighting bulbs came into operation and is at present working to capacity. At Tralee, a factory was established for the manufacture of enamel-ware. Fibre suit cases and similar goods are being manufactured in a new factory at Portarlington in Laoighis. The production of felt-base floor coverings was commenced by a new concern at Tipperary town, and a factory has also been established at Tipperary for the production of skin gloves.

There were two new hosiery manufacturing establishments commenced at Dublin, a mineral oil refinery was established at Cobh, County Cork, and a vegetable oil refinery at Drogheda, County Louth. Bitumastic paints are being manufactured at Dublin and lead pencils and similar goods are being manufactured at Mullingar. The production of soda crystals was commenced at Galway, and at Dun Laoghaire the production of marble terrazo was commenced. A factory has been built and will soon be coming into production at Portarlington for the manufacture of sports goods. Children's toys are being manufactured on a commercial scale by a new concern at Tralee.

During the course of the present year, it is hoped that we will succeed in getting a start made with the establishment of industries for the production of a number of other classes of goods. I can mention art silk fabrics, asbestos products, buttons of a kind not now produced in the Saorstát; cement, cotton piece goods, flour improver, fire-clay products, foundry products of a class not now produced here; plate and sheet glass, felt hats, upper leathers for boots and shoes, wire nails, wood screws, wrapping paper, and perhaps also certain other classes of paper; springs and axles for motors and other vehicles; wireless sets, and worsted dress materials. There are also a number of other goods, which it is hoped will be produced here during the course of the year, to which for various reasons it is not now possible to refer. In giving that review of the industrial progress that has been achieved in the past year, and which we hope to effect in the course of the present year, I wish to draw attention to the fact that there is still a very considerable field open to people with initiative and enterprise who desire to engage in industrial work here. The impression may have been created in some minds that all the industrial possibilities of this country have been fully availed of, and that any person now engaging in industry here would have to reckon upon the market he hoped to supply being catered for by some firms as well as his own. It is obvious to anybody who studies carefully our trade and shipping statistics and gets the more detailed information that can be made available through my Department as to the nature of the goods still imported, that there is substantial room for further progress, and the function of the Department of Industry and Commerce, a function which I hope we will continue to discharge at least as well in future as we have done in the past, is to assist and encourage any person who desires to avail of whatever possibilities there are.

In dealing with industrial policy, it is not infrequently alleged that, while it is true that progress is being made in the mere matter of increasing the volume of production, the conditions under which that production is taking place are unsuitable and open to criticism. Apart from the function of my Department to encourage and promote industrial development, there is the obligation on it also to ensure that factory conditions are such as would meet with general approval, and we have powers under various statutes to deal with such matters. It is, perhaps, appropriate that at this stage I should indicate in some brief and general way what we have done during the past year to ensure that factory conditions in the Saorstát will be what everybody desires. Of course, one must mention in that connection, primarily, the enactment during the year of the Conditions of Employment Act. That Act became law some two months ago. It has not yet been brought into operation, however. As I informed the House last week, I hope to have it in operation before the end of this month. The various arrangements which are necessary to enable that to be done are being pushed ahead as rapidly as possible. It is an Act which will effect very considerable changes in the conduct of a number of industries and, consequently, a considerable amount of preparatory work has to be done before it can be brought formally into operation. Apart from that Act, there are other statutes bearing upon industrial conditions. The first code of legislation in this respect is what are known as the Trade Board Acts. Under these Acts we have power to establish trade boards for unorganised industries where, because of the absence of organisation amongst the workers or employers, it is not possible to get wage agreements in the ordinary way. In such industries, trade boards may be established, and these have the right to recommend to the Minister the fixation of a minimum rate of wages and, on such a minimum rate being ordered, it becomes illegal for any employer to pay less than the minimum rate. There are 13 of these trade boards functioning at present. During the last year we established two new trade boards, one for the button-making industry and the other for the handkerchief and household piece goods trade.

The inspection of factories for the purpose of enforcing the provisions of the Factory and Workshop Acts fell off during the course of the past two years, due to the inadequacy of our inspectorate staff. We had to take certain factory inspectors and put them on other work when, during 1932-33, the expansion of the activities of my Department outran the additions to its personnel. We have, however, been making up the arrears of inspections. The total number of premises on the factories and workshops register is 11,370. The joint percentage of inspections carried out under the Factory and Workshop Acts and under the operative trade boards during the past year represent approximately 60 per cent. of the premises on the registers. It is desirable we should have 100 per cent. inspections and, to enable that to be achieved in the course of the coming year, we have sought and obtained sanction for the appointment of additional inspectors.

Under the Apprenticeship Act three committees are now functioning, one for the brush and broom trade, which committee covers the whole of the Saorstát; one for the furniture trade in the City and County of Dublin, and one for the hairdressing trade in the City and County of Dublin. At an early date we hope there will function a committee for the house-painting trade for the whole Saorstát. Consideration is being given to the establishment of apprenticeship committees for the electrical engineering trade, the manufacture of waterproofs and for dental mechanics. The Apprenticeship Act was passed in 1931, but there was some difficulty in having it brought into operation, a difficulty which anybody who reads the reports of the debates upon the Act will understand; but it has now been got over and, as the facts I have stated will indicate, the co-operation of all parties in the establishment of these committees in trades where it is necessary to have them is being secured.

I think I should mention the function of my Department to supervise the control of prices, which is exercisable under the Control of Prices Act by the Prices Commission and the Controller of Prices. I admit straight away to any Deputy who cares to make the point that the powers conferred under the existing Control of Prices Act are not adequate. That Act was a makeshift measure. It was introduced early in 1932. It was the subject of considerable controversy in the Seanad and, in July of that year, I was faced with the alternative of accepting a number of amendments which were inserted in the Seanad or having the Act suspended for 18 months. I decided to accept the amendments and we got the Bill made law, but a large part of its effectiveness had, in my opinion, been destroyed by the amendments. It will be realised that at that time there was not amongst all Parties in the House the same appreciation of the need for prices control legislation which, judging by speeches and questions we have heard put recently, now exists. I hope to have the question of the amendment and improvement of that Act taken up actively during the course of the present year. So far as the work done under the Act is concerned, I refer Deputies to the published report of the Prices Commission, which is available in the library.

Perhaps I might refer at this stage to another measure that the Department is partly responsible for the administration of—the Tobacco Act. It is merely because it comes in at this stage in my notes, and also because there is some information, that I think Deputies interested in that Act may like to have that I refer to the matter now. The total harvest of tobacco, for 1934, amounted to 682,861 lbs. and this quantity was distributed in accordance with the terms of the Act amongst the different manufacturers. The price they paid for it totalled £41,147.

At this stage perhaps I should mention that one of the functions of my Department is the prevention and the settlement of industrial disputes, and that function occupied a very considerable amount of the time of the officers of my Department during the course of the past year. During that period my Department intervened in 100 disputes, many of which were tedious and called for a number of prolonged conferences. The prevalence of industrial disputes for some time past has caused grave concern, not merely to members of the Government, but to everybody who is interested in this country's development. There can be no doubt that widespread and continuous industrial unrest is destructive of stability and the sense of confidence which progress demands.

Examining the disputes which occurred during the past year, one is forced to the conclusion that a very large percentage of them were avoidable. I know that Henry Ford, who is a very large employer, has stated his opinion that every strike is evidence of bad management in the concern affected, but I am not sure that that general statement, or any general statement of that kind, can be true in every case. It certainly does not apply to the cases of dispute of which we have had some examples during the course of the past year, where there was no question of wages or conditions of employment involved and where the stoppage of work was due to inter-union disputes which the employer was powerless to influence or resolve. In fact, in quite a number of last year's disputes, the element of inter-union rivalry was present, even where the direct cause of the stoppage was not dissatisfaction with the rates of wages or conditions of work. There can, I think, be no question that industrial stoppages due, directly or indirectly, to competition between rival trade unions to increase their membership is evidence of defective organisation of the trade union movement, which it should be the concern of responsible trade union leaders to rectify. I was pleased, therefore, to see in the Press reports which indicate that the Dublin Trades Council, and the Irish Trade Union Congress, are taking steps to set up machinery intended to prevent such inter-union disputes from arising amongst their constituent unions. It must be clear to everybody that if industrial disputes, due to inter-union rivalry, should proceed, the Government could not remain indifferent; but I think it is equally clear that it is most desirable that action to deal with that position should originate within the trade union movement itself.

The coming into operation of the Conditions of Employment Act, providing, as it does, effective machinery for the regulation of working hours and other conditions of employment in industry, as well as machinery for registering and enforcing wages agreements, should remove the incentive, or the necessity, to resort to the weapon of the strike or the lock-out in many cases which occasioned the use of such weapons in the past. However, I know many people consider it is practicable to make strikes illegal, and to institute some system of compulsory arbitration or establish some form of industrial tribunal. I have made some research in the matter and I have not been able to find any case outside those States with a dictatorial form of Government, such as Russia or Germany or Italy, where such a system, when attempted, proved workable. I do not think that, in present circumstances, it is possible to operate any system of compulsory arbitration in the Saorstát. It is much preferable that rates of wages in industry should be regulated by agreement between employers and representatives of the workers; and it has been the purpose of my Department to institute permanent conciliation machinery for different trades wherever, and whenever, possible. There are now in existence some 12 of those conciliation boards, composed of representatives of the employers and the men engaged in the different industries. Meetings of these boards were held, at fairly regular intervals, in the course of the past year and, through them, many differences, which might have led to stoppages of work, were composed.

In passing, I desire to refer to the fact that legislation relating to trade unions in the Saorstát is in many respects old, while all of it was inherited from the British Parliament. It is, perhaps, not entirely applicable to our circumstances here. The question of the revision of that legislation is bound to arise in the near future. In any event, I think we should have our own code in such matters and not have to work upon legislation designed by another Parliament for another country. As, however, the matter is one of great complexity, I shall welcome the views of responsible bodies and, particularly, trade union bodies, as to the action which should be taken.

Another section of my Department which has been particularly busy in the course of the past year is that which deals with foreign trade. The increased work which devolved upon that Department was a consequence of the nature of the trade treaties now being negotiated. In the past, trade treaties to which this country was a party were, in the main, based on most-favoured nation clauses. That form of treaty has now been entirely superseded by trade agreements providing for exchange, as between one country and another, of set quantities of specified goods. As Deputies can well understand, treaties of that kind involve a much greater amount of staff work both before their negotiation, and afterwards, because of the necessity of keeping in continuous detailed review their operations during their periods of currency. During the course of the year, treaties of that kind were effected with Germany, Spain and Belgium, while a trade arrangement was come to with Great Britain. As all these matters have already been discussed at length and on many occasions here, I do not think I need refer to them further.

During the course of the year, there was also particular activity in the section of the Department dealing with mines and minerals. I am not now trying to prejudice the report of the Committee that sat in the course of the year but the mere existence of that Committee did not prevent the important work of my Department on mines and minerals from proceeding. We have received, up to date, under the Mines and Minerals Act, 61 applications for mining leases. Of these, 19 have been granted. The remainder are in different stages of progress. Under the relevant section of the Mines and Minerals Act, two grants of mining rights have been made and other important cases are about to come before the Mining Board. It may interest Deputies who remember the discussions upon the Mines and Minerals Act, in 1931, to know that, in practice, it has been found that few mining rights applications proceed to finality, for the reason that persons against whom the application is made find it in their interest to come to terms with the applicants. About 50 grants have been made out of relief funds for the purpose of mineral exploration and development. The total of these grants during the past three financial years is about £42,000. The principal mining and quarrying industries assisted out of these grants were those concerned with the production of coal, slate, limestone, marble, brick-clay and silica. The grants have been instrumental, in almost all cases, in bringing about increased or more efficient production. In accordance with the usual requirements of the Government in the administration of relief fund moneys, the percentage of the grants which went in payment of wages to workers ranged between 85 and 100.

During the course of the year, two definite investigations of mineral deposits were undertaken by the State. I have already referred to those in an earlier debate this afternoon. They related to coal and iron in the neighbourhood of Arigna, County Leitrim, and to coal deposits in Slieveardagh, County Tipperary. The actual operations under these explorations have extended over the last two financial years. In the case of the Arigna area, five bore-holes have been carried to varying depths, and three cuttings were also opened for the purpose of examining the occurrence of coal and iron in the area. The work was undertaken by a group of French firms which combined as "the Associated Contractors (Ireland)." The actual boring and other operations on the site have been finished for about a month or six weeks, and analysis of the cores and other specimens obtained is in progress. I expect to have that report before the end of the present month. In the case of Slieveardagh, certain borings are being made by a firm of contractors, and drifts are being driven under the supervision of a resident engineer employed by the Department, the whole scheme being prepared, advised upon and supervised by a firm of consulting mining engineers of London.

I might mention in this connection a group which has become interested in the copper deposits in the Bunmahon district of County Waterford. That group has obtained certain leases from private interests, where the minerals are in private ownership and certain mining rights, under the Mines and Minerals Act of 1931, where the rights are also in private ownership, and it has not been found practicable to make arrangements for a lease. The group is also in negotiation with the Department with a view to leases in areas where the ownership of the mineral rights is in the State. Assuming further exploratory work, which this group has in contemplation, to justify it, the group has in mind large-scale development of the copper resources of the district. We have been discussing turf, under the Turf Bill, during the greater part of the evening, and in consequence I do not think that it is necessary to refer at length to the work of the Turf Development Board, although that is a matter which arises on the Estimate, as provision is made in the Estimate to defray the expenses of the board's work.

I wish to refer in a general way to the figure in the Book of Estimates of expenditure to be incurred under the Industrial Alcohol Act. The total provision in the Estimates in connection with the industrial alcohol scheme is £226,510. Of that amount, £134,600 is in respect of expenditure of a capital nature and includes £80,000, part cost of the erection of five distilleries, and £49,600, part cost of the plant and equipment, including a lump sum payment of £5,000 in respect of the use of certain patented machinery installed, and £5,000, royalties estimated to be payable under the contract with the technical advisers employed. Provision for management and working expenses amounts to £91,910, of which £52,185 relates to the purchase of potatoes. Against this expenditure it is estimated that there should be receipts of about £80,000 from the sales of alcohol and the residual wash, which will be brought to credit under the Exchequer "extra receipts." These receipts fall short of the expenditure, as Deputies will have noticed, but account has to be taken of the circumstance that there must necessarily be some quantity of alcohol produced at the close of the present financial year and not yet distributed or paid for by the local distributors. If credit were taken for this production, it is estimated that there would be a surplus. When the Estimate for the financial year 1935-36 was introduced, it was hoped that the erection of the five distilleries would have been carried out during the past financial year. Owing to difficulty in procuring suitable sites, and other circumstances which delayed the arrangements for the contract for the buildings beyond the season when building work could be expeditiously carried out, it proved to be impracticable to begin the works at a date to enable them to be completed in time to deal with the 1935 potato crop. The distilleries are now in course of erection, and it is contemplated that they will be finished and equipped to begin operations by next September.

In consequence of the delay the only expenditure falling on to the Vote for 1935-36 in respect of buildings and plant will be about £55,000. The total cost of the distilleries and plant under contracts entered into amounts approximately to £185,000. That figure is in excess of the original estimate, alterations having been made for greater efficiency and more economical working. It was originally intended, for example, that the alcohol from the five distilleries should be brought to a central rectifying station, whereas it is now provided that each distillery will rectify its own alcohol. The cost of copper and other materials has advanced considerably since the original estimate was framed. With regard to the cost of buildings, as revealed by contracts entered into, the remote situation of the distilleries, with the consequent difficulties of transportation and supervision, have also had some bearing on the increase over the estimated cost. The whole scheme is of an experimental character, and its success will have to be tested by results.

I should perhaps refer to the work of the Industrial Research Council during the course of the year. There is published each year a report of the work done by the Council. The report for last year was published in June, and made available for Deputies. I would like to refer to some of the investigations which the Council have in progress, and which have aroused some interest. The first of these relates to the extraction of waxes from peat. The research to develop a commercial process for extracting from peat, waxes suitable for industrial purposes, is being continued at University College, Cork. Plant has been erected and is in operation for the production of waxes on a semi-commercial scale. The experimental work has been mainly concerned with the removal of the small amount of impurities present in crude wax. The Industrial Research Council is very well satisfied with the progress which has been made on that particular item of research. The same applies also to investigations upon which a considerable sum has been spent, on the utilisation of sea-weeds and which has been carried out under the auspices of the Council. I have referred already to the work which has been done bearing upon the efficiency of classes of turf-burning apparatus. That report will shortly be available. Investigations have been carried out on the utilisation of skimmed milk powder in bread and on the china clay deposits in Portacloy, County Mayo. It will be necessary to have adequate geological trials there to prove the distribution of the deposit before determining the degree of uniformity of the material, and also to obtain data for costings purposes before a definite recommendation can be made on the commercial possibilities of the deposits. A detailed report is in course of preparation on the investigation of the possibilities of the commercial use of the colloidal clay at Cloyne, County Cork. There are a number of other matters upon which investigations have been made, and particular researches were undertaken for commercial firms. The usual information on these matters will be made available to Deputies when the report is published.

I think I need not refer at length to the work of the statistics branch. As Deputies know, this is a very important year for that branch, because the census is being taken, not merely the census of population, which is at present in progress, but also the complete industrial census which is being undertaken this year, as distinct from the partial census taken in previous years. The work of the statistics branch has increased considerably, apart altogether from its special activities upon the census, because of the changed nature of our trade and shipping statistics and of our trade required much more activity on the part of the statistics branch staff than was formerly necessary. I do not know that I need refer at any great length to the work of the transport branch. It has been engaged in the course of the year in carrying out the duties of the Department under the transport legislation of 1933.

I might, perhaps, refer to the work that has been done in the development of civil aviation, but I think it would be better to leave that over until I am moving a Bill dealing with civil aviation which will shortly be introduced. That will be a more appropriate occasion on which to indicate the various arrangements made or in contemplation. I had hoped that the cross-Channel air service would have been in operation by this, but certain legal difficulties arose which delayed that slightly. There has been, however, no alteration in the plans and the service should commence in the very near future.

The Minister does not say anything about the Transatlantic service.

I am not in the position to say anything about the Transatlantic service other than that the exploration of the possibility of such a service is proceeding. Possibly a more definite announcement on that matter may be made in the course of a few weeks. I do not think there is any other matter that I need refer to. There are other activities in the Department, as Deputies are aware, certain branches of which I have referred to. It would not be possible, as I indicated when commencing my remarks, to cover all the various phases of the Department's activities without occupying the time of the House for a much longer period than I think is desirable. If there are any other matters that Deputies wish to have discussed or to know more about, then no doubt they will indicate their wishes in the course of their remarks which, I trust, will be as brief and to the point as mine, and I will deal with them when replying. I have every confidence in moving this motion and in recommending acceptance of the Estimate by the House.

I move:

"That the Estimate be referred back for consideration."

The Minister has spoken at a certain amount of length but it was often very difficult to see the point. He gave us again in his opening remarks another of what I call the litanies—a factory here, a factory there and another factory some place else. The Minister asked what information the House would like to have. He said there were plenty of opportunities for further industrial development in this country. The Minister's general attitude and policy, the spirit that prevails over his Department on every type of information given to the House, very seriously prejudices the carrying out of that further industrial development. He asks us to say what we would like. I asked the Minister before, and I ask him now, why, if he is able to give us these annual litanies of where and what factories have been established, he cannot give us the information that has been asked for; that is, the number of new factories established, the number of new persons employed and the amount of additional wages paid under these industrial headings in each of the four provinces, or three provinces and a bit. We used to have held up to us in the early days of Fianna Fáil the magnificent example of Italy, where every new acre of wheat grown was chronicled and brought to the notice of the people, so that they might be inspired by the work being carried on. The only type of inspiration which people have got from the Minister is as to whether there were 100 or 300 factories established by October, 1932, and the various scrappy litanies we have got ever since. Why cannot we have in respect of each province the number of industries established under the various industrial groups, the number of workers employed there, and the weekly wages? It seems to me that there is no reason in the world for not having that information except that the Minister does not want to show what exactly is happening, with the country in its present condition and suffering from the general Government policy that afflicts it. If the Minister wanted to give confidence both to the people and to persons who would put their money into industry he would give more systematic and more detailed information than he has given.

The Minister's whole attitude here is, I might say, one of deceit. In any question discussed or brought up here, the Minister's attitude towards requests for information is such as reeks with deception. The Minister spoke of the trade agreements that his Department had concluded last year. At question time to-day he told us that he was dealing further with a Spanish trade agreement. Recently we discussed a Spanish trade agreement, and at the end of the period over which apparently the agreement ran, the Minister, introducing an Order dealing with the importation of wines, declared that the Spanish trade agreement was one of the factors that had reduced our national trade balance, and that it dealt with a market that was more valuable than the British market.

I said nothing of the kind.

The Minister said, as reported in column 1000 of the Official Report of the debates on the 20th February, 1936:

"The second point is that the egg market in Spain is a valuable market which shows very great possibilities for the future."

Then he went on to say:

"If the Spaniards are willing to pay us more for the eggs, there is no reason why we should not sell them to the Spaniards instead of to the British."

That is what the Minister said, but the Ministerial propaganda was more explicit in stating that the Opposition Party were minimising and despising a market that was better in its possibilities than the British market to-day.

If we take the details of the Spanish agreement, we shall get some conception as to the spirit that presides over the consideration of our foreign trade. The Minister, in reply to a Parliamentary question to-day, said that during the first three months of this year the Spaniards had bought eggs from us to the value of £1,317, and that Great Britain and Northern Ireland had bought eggs from us during the same period to the value of £236,291. Nevertheless, the pretence is made if not explicitly by the Minister——

The Deputy has not yet withdrawn his allegation.

I withdraw the allegation that it was explicitly stated by the Minister, but it is implied in what the Minister said. It has been stated explicitly in the Ministerial Press that the Spanish market was more valuable than the British market for eggs. Now we are told that in the first quarter of this year the Spaniards took from us £1,317 worth of eggs, and that Great Britain and Northern Ireland for the same period took from us £236,000 worth. In return for the purchase of £1,317 worth of eggs, we took from the Spaniards during the same period oranges to the value of £57,389.

The Deputy is deliberately misrepresenting the figures.

I am saying what the Minister said.

The Deputy knows quite well that eggs are exported during a different period of the year from that in which oranges are imported. To compare the figures for one quarter is entirely misleading.

The Minister was asked to-day by Deputy Desmond to give information as to the amount of eggs taken over a year, but the Minister side-stepped the question by simply saying that the quota period was not over.

That has nothing to do with the amount of eggs exported.

I want to deal with the orange side of the question. The Minister told us that if our people did not import oranges from Spain, they would be importing them from somewhere else. The fact is that when our people were not purchasing oranges from the Spanish market, they were able to get more satisfactory conditions in other markets, and the import of oranges from Spain was being reduced, until the Spanish agreement was made. We import something like 360,000 cwts. of oranges in the year, and before we went into the Spanish market these oranges cost us about £250,000 or £260,000 per annum. The latest quota which the Minister has made for Spanish oranges over a short period is for 170,000 cwts. of oranges. Obviously the quota for the whole year would be much more, and we are supposed to take two-thirds of our total imports of oranges from Spain in future.

In the beginning of January, about the 7th of January, certain types of extra selected oranges were sold in Covent Garden at 11/6 and 12/6, per case of 240. Three days before that they were sold in what is now very well known as Connolly-Shaw's Auction at 24/-, 26/-, 26/6, 27/- and 29/- per case. There was a difference between the price in London and the Dublin price in the middle of January of something like 14/6. In the beginning of this month, on the 7th of April, I think, the same state of affairs continued to exist. On the 7th of April, cases of oranges, of the type of 240 to the case, were sold at Connolly-Shaw's sales at 21/- and on the same day in Liverpool oranges of the same quality were sold at 11/6 per case. The discrepancy in price is greater than would appear from those figures. There is a duty of 3/6 per cwt. on oranges imported into Great Britain at the present time, that is about 3/- per case. It would take about a shilling in freight, to bring a case of oranges from Liverpool to Dublin and when we make allowance for the duty on oranges entering Britain—3/6 per cwt. or 3/- per case——

Ten per cent.

It is 10 per cent. for part of the year. When we take off the duty of 3/- per case and add 1/- for freight, the comparative prices in Dublin and in Liverpool on the 7th April, were: Dublin, 21/- per case; Liverpool, 9/6 per case. I said that we imported about 360,000 cwts. of oranges before we were forced to pay the Spanish prices on the Connolly-Shaw market. As a result of being forced, to the extent to which we are by the quota, into the Spanish market and into the Connolly-Shaw market, our people are going to pay something approaching £200,000 more every year for the oranges they consume in consequence of the Minister's Spanish agreement. Some of that is going to go to the Spaniards, and some is going to go to the ring formed here by the Minister—in the same way that his policy has formed a coal ring and the one operating in the matter of cement —perhaps more definitely in respect of oranges than of any other thing. The Minister told us that the benefit we get from Spain over Great Britain is the increased price of eggs. I wonder has the Minister given any consideration to the price that we do get from Spain. We got less from Spain for our Irish eggs than the Chinese get from the British for Chinese eggs. Not only that, but we have to pay bounties to get our Irish eggs over to Spain, and to get them there at a price which is less than the price that the Chinese get for their eggs in the British market.

And even that price the Spaniards will not pay to us.

The Chinese are able to get and did get on the average over the whole of last year, 7/9 a great hundred as the import price for their eggs from the people in Great Britain. We got from Spain, over the quarter for which the Minister has given us figures to-day, 6/2 per great hundred. That is to say, we got 1/7 per great hundred less from Spain for our eggs than the Chinese got for their eggs from Great Britain, and we had to pay on the average 1/8 in bounties towards that price.

That is great propaganda.

It is the fact, and if the facts of the situation here are good propaganda for the present type of Government, then our people are a lot more ignorant and foolish than anyone ever gave them credit for. The Minister talks of the better price that we get from the Spaniards as compared to Great Britain. We got 3d. a great hundred more over the average price we got last year from Great Britain because our general conditions were reduced to this: that whereas we got from the British, over last year, 5/11 per great hundred—that is, taking into account all kinds of eggs—the Australians were able to get 11/4.

What did the Chinese get?

Therefore, we got a lower price in Great Britain for our eggs than the British were giving the Chinese for their eggs. Why does not the Deputy wax eloquent on that?

We got that in spite of the fact that the people of this country put their hands in their pockets and paid out money to send the Minister and his colleagues to Ottawa a couple of years ago to see that we got the place that we were entitled to by natural right and by equity in the British market.

The place that the Australians got. What price did Australian eggs realise?

They got 11/4 per great hundred for their eggs over last year in the British Market and we got 5/11, and the Minister wants me to wax eloquent over that. One could wax eloquent on it at considerable length, but is it not sufficient to remind the Minister and this House that the taxpayers of this country provided money to send him, the Vice-President and the Minister for Agriculture to Ottawa to sit down as co-equals in council and argument with anyone who came there to argue for a proper position in the British market for those eggs that we had to sell: a market that we had been supplying for such a long period. That is the end of my eloquence on that subject. One would need to go outside parliamentary language and parliamentary order to be suitably eloquent on it.

Hear, hear.

We have the Minister telling us that last year he made an agreement with Spain, and that his Department which is growing more and more expensive and himself are engaged at the present time in hammering out a further trade agreement with Spain. The position is that we are selling eggs to Spain for less than the Chinese get in Britain, and that we are buying oranges from Spain at a price that is going to involve our people, if they continue to eat as many oranges as they normally ate in the last three or four years, in anything up to £200,000 more. The amount of that additional expense on oranges is, I submit, going to swamp entirely the whole of the amount that Spain is supposed to be paying us for eggs and a very considerable amount of it is going to find its way into the pockets of the ring deliberately created by the Minister.

The Deputy did well to give me no notice of his intention to raise this matter. Every figure that he has quoted is wrong.

I am prepared to leave this to allow the Minister to examine these figures and to get his Department to examine them. When that has been done we will see to what extent these figures are wrong.

Not one of them is right.

Well, at any rate we will have another opportunity of hearing the Minister. Sometime to-morrow the Minister will have an opportunity of looking into them and examining them. I must say that I do not understand that any precedent requires, when a motion is put down to refer back an estimate, that I should give notice to the Minister. I am dealing only with the position as regards eggs and oranges. I do not understand the Minister's reference that he should have got notice of this. The Minister had a certain amount of notice in some questions that were put to him, and should not run away from answering the points made in regard to the Spanish agreement by saying that he got no notice. The Spanish agreement was discussed here in February last, and the Minister ought to have examined his conscience and the facts after hearing some of the things that were said to him on that occasion about that particular agreement.

And some of the letters that appeared in the Press about it.

With regard to some of the letters that appeared in the Press, we would like to hear the Minister replying to the complaint made by the commercial community.

Will the Deputy wax eloquently on the letter that appeared in the Press dealing with Deputy Dillon's statement?

I hope to be most eloquent on it.

It would be just as well if we could stick to the facts of the situation for a bit and leave waxing eloquent on it.

Hear, hear.

Because the facts brought out in the Spanish agreement, and what they implied with regard to the mentality of the Minister, warrant us in looking at the facts alone. I put these figures to the Minister without any eloquence and without any waxing. I withdraw all these if they engender heat in his mind that obscures from him what in fact the figures represent. I would be glad to see him studying in a detached and thoughtful way what the figures do represent. The Minister often talks of the work that has been done in developing industry here. The fact that it is possible to reduce our people to the condition that they have been reduced to: the additional cost in respect of oranges, the frightful losses in respect of the sale of eggs by farmers who have eggs to sell, as well as the further loss to the taxpayers in providing the money for bounties to push these eggs out of the country, are all symptomatic of the reason why industry cannot develop here. The Minister is simply fooling the people with regard to the development of industry as he is fooling them in other matters.

He could not but establish a certain number of new industries here behind the 75 per cent. and 100 per cent. tariffs, and inside his wall of quotas, but it is one thing to establish an industry and it is another thing to get that industry to serve the people among whom it is established. Industries which have to be bolstered up and protected to the extent that the Minister is protecting them with exorbitant tariffs and quota restrictions, cannot serve a people whose purchasing capacity has been so reduced as the purchasing capacity of our people here has been reduced by the way in which the agricultural industry has been hit. The Minister tells us that the cost of living is very little different from what it was, and he speaks of the defects in the machinery that has been provided by the Oireachtas for controlling prices. The Minister cannot run away with the idea that he was not warned here that his general policy was excessively raising prices for the people, and that the policy of the Government of which he is a member was preventing the people from being able to pay even the normal prices chargeable for those commodities. We do charge him with very serious neglect in the matter of prices. If he were serious in his desire to control prices or to examine effectively into the causes that were raising those prices, he would have presented this House a lot quicker with his proposals for increasing his power to control prices. The only reason that the Minister can have for the delay in presenting the House with his proposals along those lines is that he knows that serious examination into the prices would disclose things which he does not want to disclose.

What, for example?

Why it was that the price of coal so increased since the quota was put on coal, and the agreement was made with Great Britain in respect of coal, and the tax of 5/- was transferred to practically all the coal coming into this country. He does not want to have shown up the fact that putting an unnecessary scheme of licensing on coal coming in from Great Britain has created a coal ring here, and has increased substantially and unnecessarily the price of coal here. That is one thing he does not want to have examined as far as prices are concerned. He pretended here in this House that the committee he was setting up to negotiate and take decisions and advise as to the prices to be charged for coal by the British collieries to the importers of this country was going to have some power to influence or review the price that was being charged for coal by the importers to the people here. The Minister does not want to have that question examined. The Minister does not want to have examined the question as to why the price of cement went up by 6/- a ton between the beginning of November of last year and the beginning of February of this year.

I told the Deputy why it went up.

The Minister did not give the proper information. The Minister said that the import price of cement had gone up by 6/- a ton.

I did not.

The Minister did not?

The Minister did.

It went up by 2/-.

But the price to the people went up 6/-.

That is right. It went up by 4/- more.

The Minister said here in the House that it was because the import price of cement had gone up by 6/-.

I did not. I defy the Deputy to find that in any records of the debate.

If I find I am wrong I will make the House aware of the fact.

I said it went up because the suppliers of cement made it a condition of their supplying it that the price should be increased by that amount.

Do I understand then that the foreign suppliers of cement said they were going to increase their price by 2/-, but that they would not sell it even at the increased price unless the people who were importing it here and retailing it put on another 4/—in addition to the 2/—which they would keep themselves?

I do submit to the Minister that this is the first time he has ventured to give that piece of information to the House.

And it is manifestly absurd.

Is it? The price went up by 6/- all the same.

It certainly did.

Will the Minister tell us why he has tolerated a rise in the price in that particular way?

What does the Deputy want me to do—go and make war on Germany?

Has the matter been examined by the Controller of Prices?

It has, and by the Prices Commission.

And they have reported that to the Minister?

They have not reported yet.

But the Minister has ascertained it? The Minister says that in order to overcome a situation like that we might have to make war on Germany.

Or make our own cement.

What about buying it from Great Britain, or will the Minister say if the British cement manufacturers made the same stipulation——

I think they were looking for more as a matter of fact.

——and if that stipulation was made before we made our recent coal-cattle-cement agreement with them?

The Deputy knows quite well that once the cement cartel closed up the prices of all cement were going up.

Did the British cement manufacturers say that they required to sell at an increased price, and that they required the retailers of cement here to take an extra 4/- a ton from the people and put that in their own Irish pockets? If they did——

But they did not.

Why not buy British cement?

If they did, did they do that before the coal-cattle-cement agreement was made, or did they do it afterwards?

Why not buy British cement? There is no restriction.

And, if so, why did we not hear about it? But, as I say, the Minister does not want to have examined and does not want to make public what are some of the reasons for those things.

I should hate to destroy the Deputy's illusions.

The Minister has a duty to destroy the delusions or the illusions of any Deputy in this House or of any class of people in the country who suffer from delusions that are injurious to commercial confidence and industrial stability here. When we are spending a very considerable amount of public money on building houses, and using a large amount of cement— cement is being pushed in many cases by the Minister for Local Government, as against brick—we are entitled in the first place to have this information so that we may consider it. A rise of 6/- in the price of cement means raising the price of cement by one-sixth at a time when, as I say, we are spending a very considerable amount of public money in building houses and using cement for them. Again I should like to ask the Minister if the Controller of Prices has ever directed his attention to the cost of tea? Every quarter, the Minister publishes in his Trade Journal information with regard to the retail cost of many items that influence the cost of living. Has the Minister ever examined the price of tea as indicated by his own figures, and ever asked the Controller of Prices to examine the situation and tell him what is wrong? Since the duty was put back on tea by the Fianna Fáil Party, the Minister's figures disclosed the fact that the price of the cheapest tea throughout the country has risen by 10¾d. per lb., while the price of the dearest tea has risen by 1¼d. per lb., at a time when the import cost of tea was reduced by some small amount.

What is the Deputy's explanation?

My explanation is that the ordinary poor people are paying a lot more, and that the burden of the tax on tea is falling completely and only on the poorer class of consumer throughout the country.

Am I responsible for that, too?

The Minister, with machinery very well sustained in the matter of getting any money he wants, has the means of investigating the cost of all these things and he has allowed a situation like the tea situation to grow up under his nose, without, so far as we know, paying any attention to it or taking any steps to redress it. It furnishes one of the explanations as to why, in spite of what the Minister might say, there is obvious evidence that the purchasing capacity of our people has very considerably diminished. Last year, I pointed out that when the figures for production in 1933 were examined, very considerable reductions in consumption had taken place in boots, shoes, hosiery, soap and candles, furniture, jams and sugar confectionery and clothing. It is quite easy to understand that where you had a situation in this country in which £11,000,000 was the total amount paid in wages in industry, and that £11,000,000 was the home market for our agriculturists, and that we got £30,000,000 from agricultural markets abroad, when these agricultural markets abroad were cut off by more than one half, the purchasing power of our people would very substantially decline and there would be a very considerable reduction in the consumption of industrial products here.

There has not been.

There has been.

There has been a substantial increase.

A substantial increase in the consumption of industrial products here?

And particularly the luxury products like motor cars.

There has been a substantial increase in respect of luxury matters like motor cars? The Minister will have an opportunity of showing us where that increase has taken place.

Sugar, tobacco, tea, jams—all round.

Does the Minister say there has been an increase in the consumption of jams, and sugar confectionery?

Does the Minister say that in the year 1934, the last year for which we have information from him, we consumed jams and sugar confectionery in excess of what we consumed in 1931?

The Deputy has picked two years out of six.

I am picking the last year for which we have information from the Minister. That is the year 1934. We are in the position that, in spite of the fact that the Minister regards himself as carrying out intense industrial development here, we have not yet got figures in respect of the production of four or five items. We are yet waiting for the figures of production in respect of bricks, fertilisers, motor cars about which the Minister is speaking, coach building, hosiery, and there is probably one other item in respect of which we have not yet got from the Minister's expensive Department information as to their production in 1934.

The Deputy is very particular, seeing that his Government did not publish any such figures until 1929.

The Minister might find a lot of things that would provide explanations for that, if he went back to the year preceding 1929. We did not boast, and we did not run a great campaign that we were carrying out an intensive industrial development here. We just carried it out.

We carried it out in a very substantial number of our important industries, and increased the employment in these very substantially, with no excessive tariffs, with no quotas, and with no excessive cost to the people. The work, as I say, was carried out, but we are in the habit of hearing a lot of talk as to the industrial development that is going on here. We are being preached at as to how important it is that the people should know all about it, but the greatest possible care is taken to see that the people will not know anything about it until a couple of years afterwards. I pointed out, when dealing with the Turf Bill to-day, that, by the assistance of bluff, by advertisement and by the use of public moneys, even to the extent of voting large sums of money as a kind of boost and not expending them, it is possible to induce a feeling in the responsible Press of this country that an enormous development has gone on and that unprecedented quantities of turf have been cut at a time when the actual fact was that there was a substantial reduction in the cutting of turf.

In the same way, the Minister is simply boosting, by many devices, the fact that a big industrial development is being carried on in order to tide him over some queer thin ice on which he knows this country is skating, and on which it will continue to skate until the entire general policy which destroys our agricultural industry has been changed, so that the Minister must excuse me if, when dealing with facts and wishing to deal with facts alone, I am restricted in the matter of time when making comparisons, and that, although this is April, 1936, I can only make comparisons between 1934, three years after the Fianna Fáil Party came into office, and 1931, the year before they came into office. Even in respect of those years, I am not able to make a comparison in respect of a number of things on which I should like to make comparisons. Comparisons, however, can be made in certain things. Last year I drew attention to the fact that the consumption of boots and shoes in 1933 was £256,619 less than in 1931.

What were the numbers?

The numbers were greater for the reason that 120,000 dozen pairs of rubber shoes—I do not want to quote the figure, but I believe they were about 7d. each—were imported into this country during that time.

The Deputy has no hesitation whatever in quoting a total figure of price and trying to misrepresent the position on the basis of it.

If the Minister wants to paint the situation in terms of prices, then do not let him say that the people of this country used 120,000 dozen pairs of shoes and let it be thought that these were shoes of standard price and quality, when they were shoes imported at a cost per pair of something like 7d. The figure is something like that.

They were rubber-soled shoes, sold at 1/6 to 2/- per pair.

They were, at any rate, shoes of such a kind as had never to any extent figured on our import lists before.

Why does the Deputy quote the figure for prices without having given the figures of the years before?

I am going to quote the prices. I told the Minister last year the reason why I was doing it——

Because it was the most unfair figure that the Deputy could give.

If the Minister will take whatever aspects of unfairness are in it and deal with them, I will be very satisfied.

The Deputy stated a minute ago that there were less boots and shoes used, and he quoted the figure of the prices of boots and shoes. That was a deliberate misrepresentation, for, in fact, there were more boots and shoes used in the latter year —though they cost less.

I must say that I do not think anyone else would put that interpretation on it. I told the Minister that in 1933 we consumed £256,619 worth less boots and shoes than we consumed in 1931.

More boots and shoes were used in 1933, though they cost less.

Well, something like 120,000 dozen pairs of these boots and shoes were worth, according to the import list, something like 7d. per pair. I do not stand for that as being the exact figure. The Minister can give us the exact figure, and I have no objection to his stating it. I think it is an appalling thing to have to make a statement like that in a country where we used 120,000 dozen pairs of boots and shoes of that kind. I am going to discuss this matter of boots and shoes on the basis of prices. The element that is involved in prices is the element of the man who gets his weekly wages; it is the element that the woman has in her purchases; it is the element that the farmer lacks in respect of millions of pounds in his lost markets abroad, and it is the element which chiefly has resulted in the reduced capacity of our people to buy the necessaries of life. The reduction in the matter of the expenditure of our people on boots and shoes was greater in 1934 than in 1931.

The prices were lower.

I would like to get evidence from the Minister that the prices of boots and shoes were still going down. I would like also to get evidence that the boots were giving better service and that they were lasting longer.

What is the Deputy quoting from?

From official statistics published by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, as regards our imports and our selling prices here. I am quoting from the comparison of the Census of Production figures published by the Minister.

The Deputy is making an error somewhere.

It is certainly a statement which does not reconcile itself with Fianna Fáil promises or as to what they say has exactly happened.

Look at the Trade Journal.

If the Deputy is dissatisfied with my statement that in 1933 we spent £250,000 less on boots and shoes than we did before Fianna Fáil came into office, he can look up the statistics himself.

For less money we got a greater quantity of boots and shoes.

These statistics show that last year we spent £378,637 less on boots than we did in 1931. Will the Deputy tell us how much exactly did we spend on boots and shoes in 1934? We spent £229,246 less on hosiery in 1933 than we did in 1931. I cannot tell the Minister how much less we spent on hosiery in 1934. The Minister has not yet given the House or the people any information with regard to the production of hosiery in the year 1934.

The Deputy objected to it.

I am objecting that we ought to have had this information last year.

Did the Minister say that the prices were going down?

Deputy Mulcahy stated it.

He stated that consumption was going down.

On the contrary, consumption is going up.

I can tell the Minister that consumption in the matter of clothing is going down. In 1933 we spent £747,192 less on clothing than we did in 1931.

On what class of clothing?

On all classes of clothing. That is dealt with by the Minister in what he calls "clothing" in his Census of Production figures— men's and women's apparel, men's and boys' suits, overcoats, and so on—and we spent on these in 1933, £747,192 less than in 1931.

On what quantity?

Will the Minister tell us the quantity—will he tell us what machinery he would employ for adding up the various types of clothing that are included in his Census of Production figures?

If the Deputy will take the various classes he will find the quantities are given.

Will the Minister himself take the various classes, and show us that the price of clothing to the people of this country is falling?

The Deputy has the quantities there in front of him.

The Minister is indulging in a nice bit of interruption to prevent a clear argument being put over on him and on the members of the House. The Minister must know that he never looked at his own Census of Production figures or at the prices. The Minister has never realised that a Government cannot undermine the main earning industry in this country, and not undermine the capacity of the people to buy clothing, boots and shoes and hosiery.

They are buying more than ever they bought.

They are not able to buy as much as they used to buy before, and the Minister's figures show that.

They are buying far more.

They are buying less, measured by the price element.

Measured by the number of boots and shoes and the quantity of clothes sold.

Deputy Mulcahy should be allowed make his speech without interruption.

In this debate the Minister makes his argument on numbers, but the only single number he has produced in any way is the number of the boots and shoes that I say were imported into this country in 1933, worth about 7d. per pair. The Minister did not produce that figure himself, but his arguments made me produce it. I move to report progress, and I hope the Minister will calm himself before we return to this Estimate again.

Progress reported.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, the 29th April.
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