asked the Minister for Agriculture whether he can state what is the average price allowed by the Swiss, German, British and Saorstát Governments for trooper horses purchased in the Saorstát, and further to ask whether the Minister has any information as to the numbers of trooper horses purchased by each of the said Governments since the beginning of this year and as to the number which it is proposed to purchase during the next six months.
Ceisteanna.—Questions. Oral Answers. - Prices of Trooper Horses.
Dr. Ryan
No arrangement has been made by the Government of Saorstát Eireann with the Governments of the other countries referred to in regard to the prices which they are prepared to pay for horses of the trooper type purchased in the Free State, and I am not, therefore, in a position to say what prices are allowed for such horses by the respective Governments concerned.
Since the beginning of this year 291 horses have been exported to Germany and 519 to Switzerland, but I cannot say precisely how many of these were horses other than troopers. Separate figures showing the number of horses of each description bought for export to the United Kingdom are not available. I have no information as to the number of horses any of those countries intend to buy during the next six months.
The part of the Deputy's question which relates to the purchase of horses for our own Army would appear to be for the Minister for Defence.
Is the Minister for Agriculture not in a position to give us any idea of the approximate price paid in this country for the trooper class of horse by the Governments referred to?
Dr. Ryan
Not at the moment. Of course we will definitely know at the end of the quarter when we are making up our accounts with the German Government.
Would the Minister take any steps in the meantime with a view to arriving even at an approximate figure for the price paid by the British Government for trooper horses in this country?
Dr. Ryan
The British Government?
Yes. The Minister remembers that in his reply he said it was not possible to extract that information from the existing statistics and that special inquiries would have to be made to find that out?
Dr. Ryan
Yes.
Is the Minister not aware that there is a definite fixed price for troopers being paid by the British Government and also by the Swiss Government?
Dr. Ryan
I do not know exactly what the Deputy means. Does he mean that there is a fixed price paid by the Government to their own buyer, or that their buyer pays a fixed price here?
I am talking about the ordinary price which the trooper horse is valued for in this country by the British Government—roughly £45.
Dr. Ryan
To the farmer?
That is another matter. I cannot tell you that. I suppose they cannot buy from every individual farmer, but generally speaking that is the price.
Dr. Ryan
I wanted to be clear on what the Deputy means. I understand that the buyer, whether the buyer for the British Government or the buyer for the German Government, pays a fixed price, but then the intermediate people who come in may create some difficulty. That is the trouble.
With a view to clarifying the position, our understanding is that the dealers who act for the British Government inform the farmers that they are in the market for troopers which they intend to sell to the British Government, on the clear understanding that they are going to get from the British Government £45 per trooper, and that, therefore, the farmer is in a position to negotiate with that dealer on the assumption that he is going to get in or about £45 for the horse. That makes it possible for the farmer to be "stiff," to use a vernacular term. It would be of interest if the Minister could inform the House whether any similar arrangement obtains in respect of dealers acting for other Governments.
Arising out of the Minister's reply, is the Minister satisfied that the price given by the German Government for horses—whatever it is—in the main reaches the farmer?
Dr. Ryan
I cannot say I am satisfied, because various reports have reached me that the farmers are not given as much as they ought to get, but it is very difficult to verify those reports, and it may be that in some cases they were not actually bought for the German Government.
Is the Minister further satisfied that under those regulations no horses are being imported from Northern Ireland and sold to the German Government as Saorstát Eireann horses?
Dr. Ryan
I think we are quite clear on that point. If horses are brought in from Northern Ireland and exported to Germany, they will not be on our quota.
In connection with this trade agreement, would it not be possible to have a proper agreement whereby the German Government would purchase horses at a definite price? I understood from the President that possibly the price may vary. I know that the prices offered to the farmers by the German Government have been a disgrace. I should like to see this agreement based on other agreements. If you are selling cattle to Germany there is so much per cwt. Why should we not have an agreement with the German Government to buy, say, 300 or 400 horses at a certain price, and then everybody would know what he is entitled to get?
Dr. Ryan
I think the Deputy will realise the difficulty in that. When we buy cattle we are buying more or less a standard article. The Government is buying the cattle and shipping them direct to Germany. The Government, of course, is not buying horses.
Who is buying them?
Dr. Ryan
They have an agent here, but I am not sure if the agent is buying from the farmers to whom the Deputy refers. Probably some intermediary is buying those horses.
The Minister will look into the Matter?
Dr. Ryan
Yes.