Vol. 63 No. 12
I move:—
That it is expedient to authorise such Charges on the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof and such payments out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas as are necessary to give effect to any Act of the present Session to make further and better provision in relation to the regulation of air navigation and transport and to provide for other matters connected therewith.
What is the cost to be?
In my Second Reading speech, I gave the purport of the financial provisions of the Bill. In Part VIII of the Bill, it is proposed to set up a company and also, if necessary, subsidiary companies, and the Minister for Finance is authorised to take the necessary steps to procure the establishment of such company or companies. The Minister for Finance is also empowered, under this part of the Bill, to provide moneys for the working of the company. For example, the share capital which, under Section 38, is to be not more in nominal value than £1,000,000, may be acquired by the Minister for Finance by subscription. Other powers are provided under this part of the Act, such as the power of underwriting, by the Minister for Finance, the issue of shares. The Minister for Finance is to have certain powers as a shareholder. With regard to debentures, the Minister for Finance may, if he thinks fit, guarantee, in such form or manner as he may think proper, the due payment by the company, in accordance with the terms of such debentures, of the principal moneys and interest secured by such debentures. Section 73 provides that the moneys which shall be made available by the Minister for Finance shall be taken from the Central Fund. In an amendment which I hope to move on the Committee Stage, a slight alteration will be made in the phraseology at the bottom of page 31 of the Bill, by which the expression "advanced from" will be substituted for "charged on and paid out of the Central Fund." The moneys required by the Minister for Finance to provide the capital of the company will be advanced from the Central Fund.
It is provided that, from time to time, the Minister for Finance may authorise the payment of subsidies, but as I explained on Second Reading, each proposal for a subsidy must be specifically brought before the Dáil and must be either confirmed or annulled by resolution of the Dáil. Furthermore, I explained that the aggregate amount which may be authorised to be paid to the company by way of subsidy by means of such orders shall not exceed £500,000 and that the period during which such subsidies may be paid shall not be outside five years from the date of the passing of the Act. The only other point seems to be that moneys paid out of the Central Fund, or the growing produce thereof, under Section 73 (1) (b), in respect of any guarantee given by the Minister for Finance under the Act in respect of moneys secured by debentures issued by the company, shall be repaid to the Central Fund, with interest thereon at such rates as the Minister for Finance shall appoint, by the company in such amounts and at such times as the said Minister shall appoint. That is a summary of the financial provisions of the Bill.
The policy in general is to set up a national company, to centralise the administration of all future aerial development in or through the Irish Free State, in so far as we can control it, in the hands of this national company and, if necessary, to establish subsidiary companies ancillary thereto.
Perhaps the Minister misunderstood me or perhaps I did not make myself clear. I know the provisions of the Bill in respect of the formation of the company, the capital of £1,000,000 and the expenses in connection with the formation of the company. Outside these matters, what has to be provided for? Could the Minister give us an estimate of what the Bill is likely to cost? It is not likely that a company will be started with a capital of £1,000,000. I should like the Minister to give us some information as to our estimated commitments in respect of the measure.
I fear I shall be unable to give the details to the Deputy. I had hoped to be in a position, on this stage, to give the House a more detailed statement. I regret very much that I am not in a position to do so. The expenditure in contemplation is on account of a policy which has not been finally worked out, and which has not been finally planned. It is estimated that, at least, £1,000,000 will be required for the share capital of this national company.
At least.
At least. That £1,000,000 or some of it may have to go to the subsidiary companies such as the Aer Lingus Teoranta. But the greater portion of it will probably be expended by the central company itself. I cannot give further details than to say that the £1,000,000 will be required, but it will not be required, I think, immediately. The £1,000,000 will only be called up as and when required. The services which will be maintained by the establishment of this central company may be of a preliminary or experimental character. The whole question of these services at present is under consideration. The Department of Industry and Commerce and the other Departments are at present considering the matter, and are taking advice and having conferences with other interests concerned. For some time to come I do not expect to be able to make a complete statement as to the main features of the policy which the Government has envisaged, but I think I am safe in saying that the £1,000,000 which will be required may not be all called up in the immediate future. The position is that the services which are in contemplation are somewhat novel in character. A great deal of preliminary work has to be done. A great deal of exploration and consultation has to go on, and the Government feel that they ought to be armed as soon as possible with the sanction of the Dáil, and armed with powers to go ahead to expend these moneys. We feel that it is absolutely essential at this stage, as I explained on the Second Reading, that we should utilise any advantages which we have, and that we should utilise any opportunities we have to the very fullest in developing our geographical position and putting this country on the map as a really international centre to which different countries would send their ships, and that we should establish the enterprise in such a way that this country would be well recognised on the Continent of Europe as one which has definitely taken up an air attitude and which is anxious to develop its potentialities to the full. It is in order that we will not be cramped or in any way restricted in the policy we have in view that the Government are looking for what is admitted to be a very large sum of money. When the full facts, which I am not in a position to disclose at present, are made known to the Dáil and country, I think it will be recognised that the amounts mentioned in the Bill are not by any means out of proportion, having regard to the nature of the services which are envisaged.
When does the Minister expect to be in a position to tell us the approximate cost of this?
I have already told the Deputy that the capital of the company which it is proposed to set up will be £1,000,000.
At least £1,000,000?
Yes.
We are asked here to vote the money which it is expected to spend. But the Minister says he has no plans. When will the plans be ready?
I have already stated that I think it will be at a very early date.
Will it be before this Bill is law?
I am dealing with the matter as best I can, but I cannot promise definitely. I will use my best endeavours to make a full statement to the House before the Bill passes through its final stages.
Is that before we rise for the Summer Recess?
Yes.
The Minister feels that that may have to take place without the House knowing the amount of money contemplated to be expended.
It may have to take place under such circumstances, but I do not anticipate that more than a fortnight, or perhaps three weeks, can elapse without my being in a position to make a more complete statement.
Under Section 68 of the Bill I see that the Minister for Finance may from time to time take up by subscription any class or classes of shares in the company. The total amount of shares so taken up shall not exceed in nominal value the sum of £1,000,000. Does the Minister think there is going to be any money other than the money put up by the Minister for Finance in what is contemplated here? Will there be any other subscriptions, or will anyone else take shares? Will there be at least £1,000,000 of State money, and will there be any other money?
I cannot state definitely that there will be any other money.
Surely it is rather an amazing thing that the House should be asked to pass through a spacious enabling Act, when in Committee Stage the Minister says that the plans are so backward that he cannot tell us what is the extreme limit. Is it that it will be at least £1,000,000? Is there going to be any other money looked for?
We cannot say how the service, when established, will develop.
When the Minister says that there will be £1,000,000 of State money, does he mean to convey to the House that that is all the money will be in it or will there be some other money? There must be some plan. Is there any possibility of his telling us?
I believe that the £1,000,000 which is the sum laid down in the Bill may be required. I regret that I am not in a position to say whether other moneys will be sought or whether other contributions will be made. That, at any rate, is the amount which the Saorstát is definitely proposing to invest in the enterprise.
Are the Government looking forward to a joint investment with other people? Are they the only investors in the company? The House ought to have some idea as to whether the Government are to be the only investors in the company?
I cannot say definitely. There is a possibility that there may be other parties besides the Government.
I am not speaking of possibilities. What is the desire? What is the aim? Is there any object?
The aim is to concentrate developments in the hands of an Irish national company.
Financed entirely by the Government?
Yes.
Then it is not intended to have other subscribers?
So far as I know at present it will be entirely financed by the Government.
Very well; that is the aim. That is definite.
