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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Feb 1937

Vol. 65 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Supplementary Estimate. Vote 56—Gaeltacht Services.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim bhreise nach mó ná £10 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1937, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta, maraon le Deontaisí um Thógáil Tithe.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1937, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Gaeltacht Services, including Housing Grants.

In submitting this Supplementary Estimate to the Dáil, I should like to make it clear that additional funds are not needed under the Estimate. This will be observed from the fact that the Estimate is for a token figure. The real purpose of the Estimate is to secure the sanction of the Dáil for extra statutory payments made or to be made within the present financial year to which the power conferred on the Minister by the Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Act, 1934, does not extend.

To explain the matter, it is necessary to point out the effect certain provisions of the Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Act, 1934, had on the general principles of the Housing (Gaeltacht) Act, 1929. Under Section 3 of the Act of 1929 the Minister was empowered to make grants and loans towards the erection or improvement of dwellinghouses in the Gaeltacht subject to the condition set out in Section 11 (3) that a preference should be given to the occupiers of dwelling-houses in which the Irish language was the habitual language of the home, but no such preference was stipulated in connection with the making of grants and loans under Sections 4 and 5 of the Act towards the erection or improvement of poultry houses or piggeries. The provision of proper and healthy dwelling accommodation was the primary work to be performed under the Act, and the number of applications received from Irish-speaking households in connection with the erection or improvement of dwellinghouses was so large that it became quite clear that similar applications from non-Irish-speaking householders could not be attended to for an indefinite period. It was therefore decided, when the Act of 1934 was being prepared that, from the point of view of applicants from English-speaking households, no useful purpose would be served by the continuance of their right to make application as there was no possibility within a reasonable period of applications from such households being dealt with. To obviate, therefore, a possible injustice or breach of faith, it was considered advisable to restrict the making of grants and loans in connection with the erection or improvement of dwellinghouses to cases where Irish was the habitual language of the home. The policy of restricting application to households where Irish was the habitual language was intended to apply to dwellinghouses only and at no stage was it intended to apply to householders making application for assistance towards the erection or improvement of poultry houses and piggeries. It was recognised that the measure of assistance provided under Sections 4 and 5 of the Principal Act in this regard was concerned with economic conditions rather than with the language question. This intention was clearly demonstrated when the Minister who had charge of the 1934 Bill stated, in reply to a question from a Deputy, that there would still be power under the Act to continue to give assistance in connection with the erection or improvement of poultry houses and piggeries to occupiers of dwellinghouses in the Gaeltacht, where Irish was not the habitual language of the home.

The Act of 1934 having been passed, it was administered as understood to include power to grant assistance towards the erection or improvement of poultry houses and piggeries, irrespective of the language of the household. The proper interpretation of Section 4 of that Act having come into question recently, the matter was submitted to the Attorney-General, who advised that the section, as it stands, restricts the giving of assistance of all kinds under the Act to occupiers of dwelling-houses in which the Irish language is habitually used as the home language of the household.

The position, therefore, is that there is no statutory authority for such payments already made or falling to be made in the financial year 1936-37, and in order to prevent hardship to those who have incurred expense on the strength of sanction given by the Minister, it is necessary to obtain authority from the Dáil to charge against the Vote those grants which were sanctioned before it was ascertained that there was no statutory authority to cover them, and which, it is estimated, will fall due for payment during that year. Of the gross amount being asked for in this Estimate, £164 10s. 0d. has already been paid out, and a further sum not exceeding £135 10s. 0d. will, it is estimated, be payable before the end of the financial year. As already stated, additional funds are not necessary, as the amount required was included under sub-head H (3) in the original Estimate for the current financial year.

For the information of the Dáil it may be stated that no loans in amplification of the grants referred to have been sanctioned, and, therefore, no necessity arises for the introduction of a Supplementary Estimate for the authorisation of loans of that kind. The amount of such grants sanctioned by the Minister before it was ascertained that the Act was being infringed is £2,105, affecting 260 cases, and it is intended to seek Dáil sanction for estimated requirements for the remainder in Estimates for future years.

It is being considered at present whether the policy of making grants for poultry houses and piggeries to occupiers of dwelling-houses in which Irish is not the habitual language of the home should be continued. Other Departments are concerned, and the matter will be discussed with them with a view to an early decision. Should it then be deemed advisable to continue making these grants, fresh legislation will, if necessary, be prepared without delay. However, the matter now before the Dáil is the question of obtaining authority for the payments made during the current financial year or to be made before the end of that year.

I feel sure that the cause of the misinterpretation of the Act will be appreciated, and, doubtless, the Dáil will readily agree to accord its sanction, so that the absence of authority to make the grants out of the Vote for Gaeltacht Services will not inflict hardship on any person who has been promised this type of assistance.

The House is being asked to agree to an expenditure of £300 for the construction of poultry houses and piggeries in certain parts of the Gaeltacht. The Parliamentary Secretary tells us that it is necessary for the House to do this in order to prevent possible injustice or a possible breach of faith with the people in the Irish-speaking districts. I wonder has the Parliamentary Secretary any information as to what the people in the Irish-speaking districts think of the usefulness of their poultry houses and piggeries to-day? The Minister for Agriculture has been advised that the pig-rearing industry is nearly extinct in some parts of those areas, and that there has been a tremendous decrease in the production of poultry. If ever there was a case of "Fál an bhodaigh tar éis na foghlach," we have it with us now.

The sum of £300 is going to be provided for the construction of certain piggeries and poultry houses in the Irish-speaking districts I would like to draw the attention of the House and of the Parliamentary Secretary to what the people in the Irish-speaking districts think of the present situation. He may have seen the representations made by the people in the parish of Ballyvourney to the Minister for Agriculture, or he may not; but I think that when asked to vote money for the building of further poultry houses and further piggeries in the Irish-speaking districts, the members of the Dáil ought to have this statement in front of them. It was a statement addressed to the Minister for Agriculture arising out of a meeting held on the 31st January, 1937, and it says:

"Do tionóladh cruinniughadh d'fheirmeoirí Bhaile Mhúirne ar an 31/1/37. B'é an Sagart Paróiste, An tAthair Pádraig O Síochcháin, a bhí i gceannas an chruinnuighthe. Tréis dul i gcómhairle a chéile dhóibh do h-órduigheadh domh-sa sgríobh chughat, agus a innsint duit go bhfuil feirmeoirí na Gaedhaeltachta so i ndeire an anama, toisc an praghas uathbhásach árd atá ar an bplúr agus ar an min bhuidhe (an measgadh) anois agus gan ach pradhas suarach go léir le fághail aca ar aon earradh a bhíonn á dhíol aca. Tá cuid mhór des na feirmeoirí beaga agus na sclábhaidhthe gur truagh é a gcás ag iarraidh greim bídh a shólathar dóibh féin agus dá leanbhaí bochta; cuid aca chómh dealbh san nach féidir leo mála plúir deich gcloch a cheannach le chéile. Bíonn ortha súd an plúr a cheannach 'na chlochaibh anois, rud nár dheineadar riamh go dtí so, mar ní thugann na siopadóirí aon cháirde uatha anois. Nuair a cheannuightear an plúr 'na chlochaibh bíonn praghas níos aoirde fós le díol as.

Daoine tionnscalacha, a oibrigheann go cruaidh, agus go bhfuil eolas a ngnótha aca, iseadh feirmeoirí Bhaile Mhúirne, agus go dtí gur tháinig ar cogadh econaimíochta, d'eirigh leo maireachtaint go seascair neamhspleadhach ar a gcuid bó, a gcuid ime, a gcuid muc, a gcuid éanlaithe, agus a gcuid ubh. Do sgrios an cogadh econaimíochta iad, agus do dhein sé bocht dealbh iad; agus níor dhein aon scéim de scéimeannaibh an Riaghaltais aon bhlúire thairbhe dhóibh. Caithtear beatha-lámh a thabhairt dos na ba bainne sa cheanntar so ar feadh naoi mí den bhliain. An mhin bhuidhe a thugtí dhóibh. Caitheadh eirghe as nuair d'eirigh pradhas na mine buidhe (an measgadh) thar fóir ar fad. Aon tairbhe a thiocfadh de bhári scéim an bhainne agus an ime, tá se curtha ar neamh-nídh, mar nuair ná faghann na ba bainne an beathalámh, is beag an bainne ná an t-im a fachtar uatha. Tá tionnscal na muc ar bruachaibh báis. Pradhas na mine agus gan í bheith le fagháil ar cáirde fé ndeár san. Tá na feirmeoirí ag eirghe as bheith ag tógaint banbhaí agus ag ramhrughadh muc. Aoinne go bhfuil cránta aige fós, caitheann sé na banbhaí óga a dhíol. Na ceannaidhthe mine agus na muilteoirí a cheannuigheann iad agus a ramhruigheann iad, agus is aca san a bhíonn an sochar. Ar an gcuma gcéadna, tá luigheadú éachtach tigithe ar an méid eanlaithe a coimeádtar anois, agus, mar thoradh ar sin, ar líon na n-ubh. Pradhas na mine fé ndeár so. Maidir le scéim na cruithneachtan agus scéim an bhiatais, ní h-aon tairbhe iad dos na feirmeoirí imeasg na slébhte annso. Is beag é achar an méid tailimh atá ann chun curadóireachta agus é sin ró-neamh-thoramhail chun cruithneacht no biatas d'fhás. An deontas a tugadh ar chroicinn na ngamhan, ba mhar a chéile ann no as é chómh fada agus a bhain sé le feirmeoirí na h-áite seo. Beireann furmhór na mbó i mí Eanair, i mí Feabhra, agus i Mí na Márta. Díoladh na gamhna nú na croicinn ar 1/6 an ceann anuiridh agus arbhú anuiridh, agus nuair a bhí an deontas le fághail i mí Abráin, is beag bó a bhí gan breith. Gheibhtí £2 agus £3 an ceann ar an gamhna roimis seo. Is beag é an tairbhe a dhein luigheadú na gcíosanna sa cheanntar so mar bhí na cíosanna beag.

Tá bran, agus bárr-fhuighealacha eile an ghráinne a úsáidtí go fairsing chun ba agus muca agus éanlaithe do cothughadh, gann agus daor anois. Ba chóir go mbeadh na h-adhbhair bídh seo raidhseamhail agus saor, ós rud é go bhfuil an plúr go léir 'ghá mheilt sa bhaile anois. Ach tuigtear dúinn go bhfuil na muilteoirí ghá gcoimeád istigh chun ganntanas bréige a dhéanamh, i dtreo is go mbeadh leath-sgéal aca ar ball chun na bpradhasanna d'árdughadh. Roimis seo, bhí sé ar chumas feirmeoirí Bhaile Mhúirne a gclann a choimeád sa bhaile agus iad a chur i gcrích. Anois, caitheann na buachaillí óga agus na cailíní óga imtheacht go Sasana, no isteach ins na cathracha, ar lorg oibre, ó baineadh díobh an tslighe maireachtana ba dhual dóibh. Sé an sgéal céadna ag na sclábhaidhthe é. Níl sé ar chumas na bhfeirmeoirí obair a thabhairt dóibh. Sé ár dtuairim ná tuigeann an Riaghaltas chómh dona agus atá an sgéal ag muinntir na Gaedhealtachta, ná an dealbhas agus an gábhatar atá ann."

Cé an bhaint atá ag praghas an phlúir agus craiceann an ghamhan le cró na gcearc do thógáil?

San leitir seo tá cur síos ar an staid in a bhfuil muinntir na Gaeltacha maidir le muca, le héanlaithe agus le huibheacha. Admhuighim go bhfuil rudaí ann ná baineann leis an Meastachán acht ní féidir na muca agus na huibheacha do chur ar leath taoibh ó sna rudaí eile.

Cuireann siad na gabhna isteach i gcró na gcearc uaireannta.

Teasbáineann an leitir seo go bhfuil deire nách mór curtha le tionnscail na muc. Tá laighdú mór tagaithe ar an méid cearc atá sa tír agus ar an méid ubh chó maith. Molann na daoine do chuir an leitir seo uatha go ndéanfí cúig nithe. Ní bhaineann ach dá cheann acu leis an sgeal atá a phlé anois— uimhir a (2) agus uimhir a (4). Tá uimhir a (2) mar leanas: "Go bhfaghaimís an mhin bhuidhe ar 14/- an mála fiche cloch" agus tá uimhir a (4) mar leanas: "Go gcuirfí d'iachaibh ar na muilteóirí barr fhuighealach an ghrain (bran, etc.) do scaoileadh amach agus iad a dhíol ar pradhas reasúnta."

The Minister is asking the House for £300 for more piggeries and more hen-houses. Why is it possible for a statement such as I have read to come from a district like Ballyvourney and districts representative of the greater part of West Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal—the greater part of the Gaeltacht? Why is it possible, I ask? Because circumstances exist here which, in the last few years, have reduced our exports of poultry by a quarter of a million pounds, and our exports of eggs by £1,234,000, and reduced the number of pigs in the country during the last two years from 1,227,000 in 1934 to 1,087,000 in 1935, and 1,016,000 in 1936; or a reduction of 200,000 pigs in the country in the last two years. Surely, when the Parliamentary Secretary talks of possible injustice and breach of faith with the people in these districts, it is merely an ineffective taoibhín he is putting on the situation for the people in these districts when he offers them £300 for more pig-houses and more hen-houses, when the Parliamentary Secretary knows very well that what is down there in that statement is perfectly true. I should like the Minister to address himself to the condition of the people.

The Deputy is aware that, on a Supplementary Estimate—particularly one for a token Vote of £10—discussion is confined to what is actually in that Estimate. It may be only a taoibhín, as the Deputy said, but we are limited to the taoibhín, not the shoe.

I submit, Sir, that it is not unreasonable, when discussing an Estimate here, voting money for more hen-houses and pig-houses in the Irish-speaking districts, to draw attention to the fact that representations have been made within the last fortnight to the Minister for Agriculture pointing out that the pig industry is practically dead in these districts, and that the poultry and egg industry is not worth anything like what it was. The number of hens and pigs in these districts has been very substantially reduced. I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary in what areas these new hen-houses and these new pig-houses are going to be provided, and if he will tell us what change has taken place in the number of poultry and in the number of pigs in those areas in which he is going to have those new hen-houses and pig-houses put up.

On this Vote, I thought I would take the opportunity, Sir, of bringing to the notice of the House the conditions which exist in the Gaeltacht.

The economic conditions which exist in the Gaeltacht are not relevant on this Vote. That would be for consideration on a main Estimate—possibly for the Minister for Agriculture, who is not concerned on this Vote.

Well, Sir, after all, if we are going to spend money on buildings for pigs and fowl, I think it is only fair that we should put before the House the conditions in which the people in the Gaeltacht areas find themselves.

That might be so on the main Vote. This is a Supplementary Estimate for £10, and no wide discussion is allowable on a Vote of this character.

The question was so urgent, Sir, that I took the first opportunity of bringing it up, and I would appeal to the President, as I have done so before on other occasions, to take up the matter of this document and send down an official to find out for himself, from people of all shades of opinions and politics, what are the conditions imposed on those people as a result of the policy of the Government.

I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to make clear whether or not this money is to give grants to people in the Gaeltacht area who are not English-speaking, and whether they get separate grants for building hen-houses and piggeries as distinct from any grant for a house. Is that what this money is wanted for, and is it meant that grants were sanctioned for non-Irish-speaking homes?

Gearóid Mac Partholáin

Mura bhfuil muinntir Bhaile Mhúirne sásta tairbhe a bhaint as an Scéim seo, budh mhaith liom a rádh go bhfuil antóir ar muinntear Conamara air. Feicthear dhom gur rinneadh éagcóir ar mhuinntir na breac-Ghaedhealtachta nuair a h-athruigheadh an céad Acht le go gcoinneochaidhe tairbhe na scéime seo taobh istigh de'n Fhíor-Ghaedhealtacht. Tá an bhreacGhaedhealtacht chomh bocht leis an bhFíor-Gheadhealtacht agus tá sé andeachar orra teach a thógáil faoi'n Roinn Riaghaltais Aiteamhla. D'iarrfainn ar an Aire breathnughadh isteach sa scéal feachaint an féidir an t-athrughadh sin a chur ar neamhnidh agus seans a thabhairt do'n bhreach-Ghaedhealtacht tigheacht isteach faoi'n Scéim seo aríst.

Ach ní fhágan san go bhfuil muintir na Gaeltachta nó na Breach-Ghaeltachta i gConamara sásta le scéal na muc no scéal na gcearc nó scéal na n-ubh fé láthair.

Gearóid Mac Partholáin

Ní airighim aon ghearan uatha.

An té gur maith leis bheith bodhar, bíonn sé bodhar.

The question which has been before the House is to make good to certain people who have undergone a certain amount of expense for the erection of poultry houses and piggeries, their expenses in accordance with the undertaking given by the Minister in introducing the 1934 Amendment Act. As I explained in my opening statement, it was found, when that Act came to be administered, that there was no statutory authority for making these payments, and the amount I am now asking the Dáil to sanction is to save these people from being at the loss of the expense they have incurred in the erection of these poultry houses and piggeries. It was understood that these moneys could be paid to people in whose houses the Irish language was not the habitual language, but it was found, when it came to administering the Act, that that section of the Act was confined to people in whose homes Irish was the habitual language. The amount is merely a token Vote to legalise the payments which have been made, or which will come to be made before the close of the financial year.

With regard to the questions which have been raised by Deputy Mulcahy I do not propose to deal with them, as they might more properly be directed, I think, to other Departments. For instance, the question of the control of prices and of all matters pertaining to prices is, I think, a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and it is not my function to deal with such questions. I am merely asking the House to sanction those payments to enable the Government to keep its contract with these people.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary mean to convey to the House that he is not interested in looking after the people in those areas?

I said no such thing.

Vote agreed to.
Report of Vote agreed to.
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