Committee on Finance. - Vote 65—Army. – Dáil Éireann (8th Dáil) – Wednesday, 31 Mar 1937

Committee on Finance. - Vote 65—Army.

Aire Cosanta (Proinnsias O hAodhagáin)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim na raghaidh thar £1,063,910 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1938, chun costais an Airm agus Chúltaca an Airm (maraon le Deontaisí áirithe i gCabhair) fé sna hAchtanna Fórsaí Cosanta (Forálacha Sealadacha); chun costaisí áirithe riaracháin ina thaobh san; agus chun Costaisí fén Acht Bunreachta (Leasú Uimh. 17), 1931.

Seacht míle fichead, naoi gcéad a ceathair is caoga céimnigh is seirbhísí uile, an bhunaíocht iomlán, dá ndeintear soláthar le Meastachán an Airm i gcóir na Bliana Airgeadais, míle naoi gcéad a seacht triochad—ocht triochad.

Mr. McGilligan

Is this going to be read? Is it in order to read it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Minister has an important statement to make, there is a convention that he is entitled to read it.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order. The fact is that the Minister is quite unable to make an extempore statement in Irish. That is manifest from the way in which he has read the manuscript which has been prepared for him. Is it in accordance with the rules of order that he should get up and misread Irish from a manuscript prepared for him by a translator in his Department, seeing that the rules of order refer only to special statements requiring strict accuracy or the words that a Deputy used in this House?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think that is a matter of order. The Chair does not assume to have competence to decide the other question. The Minister read in one of the two languages regarded as the official languages.

Mr. Dillon

Do the rules permit a Deputy to read unless it is necessary for a high State purpose to choose words very carefully? There is, I admit, a convention that where a high State purpose requires every word to be weighed a statement may be read, but in the ordinary course statements are not read. There can be no question of a high State purpose on the introduction of an Estimate. If the Minister wants to speak in Irish, we shall be delighted to listen to him; but we do object to his reading from a manuscript when he can plead no high State purpose for this breach of the ordinary rules of order of the House. If the Minister wishes to speak in Irish, we shall listen to him with respect, attention and pleasure, but we do object to his reading.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has no means of deciding. The Chair has only to assume that the Minister has an important statement to make and that that is the reason he is reading from a manuscript.

Proinnsias O hAodhagáin

Tá roinnte mar leanas——

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

Proinnsias O hAodhagáin

Tá roinnte mar leanas:—An Gnáth-Arm, sé mhíle, céad is seachto; Cultacaí, cúig mhíle, naoi gcéad a ceathair is ochtó; Fórsa na nOglach, cúig mhíle dhéag is ocht gcéad. Mar seo leanas atá líon an Ghnáth-Airm atá beartuithe a bheith ann, déanta suas:— Oifigigh, cúig chéad a h-aon is nócha; Daltaí, trí is caoga (ar a náirmhítear ceathrar Daltaí is ion-choimisiúnta sa bhliain seo; Oifigigh Nea-Choimisiúnta, míle, ceithre chéad a dó is triocha (ar a n-áirmhítear triúr daltaí is ion-choimisiúnta sa bhliain seo; Saighdiúirí Singile, ceithre mhíle a h-ocht is seasca; Banaltraí, seachtar déag; Seiplínigh, naonbhar. Sa Mheastachán so, tá soláthar á dhéanamh do chúigear oifigeach, seacht ndaltaí fichead, oifigeach nea-choimisiúnta amháin, agus do chéad is naoi saighdiúirí nóchad de bhreis ar an líon dar deineadh soláthar sa bhliain, míle naoi gcead a sé triochad—seacht triochad. Ní mór miniu tnabhairt ar an méadu so. Sa Ghnáth-Bhunaíocht Síochána de sna Forsaí, deantar soláthar do chúig chéad aon oifigeach is nócha agus do chúig míle ocht gcéad is a seacht céimnigh eile; agus is ar éigin is leor an líon so don Ghnáth-Arm chun a dhualgaisí coitianta do chólíonadh maraon le Caidrí do chur ar fáil chun na Cúltacaí agus Fórsa na nOglach do thréineáil. Cúig chéad is againn an líon oifigeach atá againn fé láthair agus tar éis dúinn ceapacháin chun chéim choimisiúnta i rith na bliana seo do chur san áireamh, beidh cúig chéad a haon is nócha againn fé dheire na bliana. Fágfaidh sin againn an líon oifigeach atá orduithe leis an mBunaíocht Síochána atá anois i bhfeidhm, ach d'fhonn socrú chun luigheaduithe agus méaduithe i rith na mblian seo chughainn do dhéanamh, tá beartuithe againn triocha Daltaí do liostáil cómh luath 's is féidir é.

Tá easnamh i mBunaíocht na gCéimneach Eile. Cé gur orduigheadh fén mBunaíocht Síochána le roinnt bhlian anuas tímpal le cúig mhíle is ocht gcéad Ceimhnigh Eile do bheith ann, níor deineadh soláthar le Meastacháin na tréimhse sin ach amháin do chúig mhíle is trí chéad. Ba mhór mar do ghoill sé seo ar an Arm, agus ar a shon gurbh éigean dúinn, dá dheascaibh sin, an líon do mhéadú dhá chéad, tá easnamh de thrí chéad, nó mar sin, Céimhnigh Eile, sa Bhunaíocht fós. An Bhunaíocht Chúltaca—cúig mhíle, naoi gcéad a ceathair is ochtó Ceimhnigh Eile—dá bhfuil soláthar déanta, is mar leanas atá sí riartha:—Oifigigh, dhá chéad a ceathair is triocha; Cúltaca den ghrád "A," cúig mhíle; Cúltaca den ghrád "B," seacht gcéad is caoga. I gcomparáraid le figiuirí na bliana seo caithte tá méadú d'aon is nócha, Céimnigh Eile, tar éis teacht ar líon na seirbhíse seo, ach 'sé fé ndear é ar fad ná an méadú a thagann uaidh féin ar Chúltaca den ghrád "A" mar gheall ar go mbeidh a dtéarmaí seirbhíse sa Ghnáth-Arm curtha isteach ag na fearaibh.

Mar seo leanas atá Bunaíocht na nÓglach atá beartuithe a bheith ann, có-dhéanta:—Oifigigh, trí chéad; Céimnigh Eile, an Treas Tosaigh, tá liostálta cheana, naoi míle; Céimnigh Eile, an Treas Tosaigh, liostálfar sa bhliain seo, trí mhíle; Céimnigh Eile, an Meán-Treas, tá liostálta cheana, dhá mhíle; Céimnigh Eile, an Meán-Treas, liostálfar sa bhliain seo, míle; Ceimnigh Eile, an Treas Deiridh, cúig chéad. Sin iomlán de chúig mhíle dhéag is ocht gcéad—luigheadú de dhá mhíle is seacht gcéad ar iomlán na bliana seo caithte, agus 'sé is mó is cúis leis gur deineadh soláthar chun cúig mhíle do liostáil sa bhliain, míle naoi gcéad a sé triochad—seacht triochad agus ná fuil soláthar againn á dhéanamh ach amhain chun trí mhíle do liostáil sa bhliain airgeadais seo.

Ma dheinimíd an Meastachán d'infhiúchadh anois ón dtaobh airgeadais, chifimíd go bhfuil glanmhéadú de chúig mhíle seascad, ocht gcéad is trí púint fhichead ann. Tagann an gnáth-mhéadú san go díreach agus nách mór ar fad de thoradh na dtrí neithe seo leanas:—(a) an tArm do dhul i líonmhaireacht; (b) costas págha is cothála do dhul i méid; (c) costas na tréineála speisialta do Chúltacairí agus d'Óglaigh do dhul i méid. Cúig mhíle dhéag, naoi gcéad is ceithre púnt déag an méid ba ghádh chun líon an Airm do mhéadú dhá chéad, ach toisc gur féidir nách mbeidh an cóilíon iomlán againn ar feadh na bliana airgeadais go léir, níl soláthar á dhéanamh leis an Meastachán so ach amháin d'aon mhíle dhéag, naoi gcéad is ceithre púint déag.

Gan trácht in aon chor, áfach, ar an nídh seo, atá soiléir, tá neithe eile, nách ró-shoiléir, sa scéal, as a dtiocfadh gnáth-mhéadú, fiú amháin dá bhfanadh líon an Airm mar do bhi cheana .i., cúig mhíle is trí chéad Céimnigh Eile. 'Siad na neithe seo go cumair ná costas breise na n-earraí is gádh chun an tArm do cotháil, comh maith le breisithe agus leathnuithe na págha is na liúntaisí atá údaruithe le Rialacháin. Trí mhíle dhéag, naoi gcéad is ceithre púint nóchad an méadú a thagann de dhruim phága is liúntaisí, mar shompla, agus tá ann, leis, gnáth-mhéadú eile de fiche míle, trí chéad is ceithre púint chaogadh, gurb é costas bídh, connaidh, soluis, furra agus petrol fé ndear é.

Sé an tríomhadh nídh ná an gádh atá le n-a thuille cúrsaí speisialta do Chúltacairí is d'Oglaigh do chur ar fáil agus gnáth-mhéadú eile é sin, gurb é forfhás an Airm is fáth dhó. Níor ghádh anuraidh na cúrsaí sin do sholáthar ach amháin do sé chéad fear i gcóir trí mhí, ach tá orainn i mbliana soláthar do mhíle is cúig chéad i gcóir na tréimhse céadna do dhéanamh—rud a chosnóchaidh tímpal le ceithre mhíle dhéag is dhá chéad púnt sa mbreis alos págha agus cothála. Tuigfear, mar sin, i dtaobh an ghlan-mhéaduithe iomlán de chúig mhíle seascad, ocht gcéad is trí púint fhichead go bhfuil suim nách lugha ná dhá mhíle sheascad, is ceithre púint triochad á caitheamh ar an dá chéad sa mbreis, Céimnigh Eile, ar chostas méaduithe na cothála agus ar an leathnú den tréineáil is gádh do Chúltacairí agus d'Óglaigh.

Téigheann mion-neithe ilghnéitheacha chun an fuighleach, trí mhíle, seacht gcéad is naoi bpúint ochtód do shlánú, agus níl ortha san ach dhá nídh gur mhaith liom thrácht ortha anois mar gheall ar fhó-mhírchinn nuadha bheith ceapaithe dhóibh. 'Sé an chéad nídh dhíobh san dá bhfuil míle púnt á chur in áirithe ná "An Daonra Síbhialta do Chosaint ar Ionnsuithe Aeir agus Geas."

Pléideadh an rud a déanfaí dá dtagadh na h-ionnsuithe sin ar ár ndaoine, ag Cómhdháil ar a raibh Ionaduithe i láthair ón Roinn Dlí agus Cirt, ó'n Roinn Cosanta, ón Roinn Rialtais Áitiúil agus ón Roinn Tionnscail is Tráchtála, agus tar éis don Árd-Chómhairle an scéal do bhreithniú ó bhun, shocruigheadar ar an ngnó san do thabhairt don Roinn Cosanta le déanamh. Táimíd tar éis coiste speisialta do bhunú, dá bhrígh sin, a fhéachfaidh i ndiaidh na ceiste seo sa mhéid go mbainfeadh sí leis an dtír seo in am práinne agus chun aon roimh-chostaisí dá ngeobhadh léi do ghlanadh, tá míle púnt a sholáthar leis an Meastachán so.

Mion-chostas nua eile an deontas-i-gcabhair do Chistí Leasa de chúig chéad is dhá phúnt sheachtód, chun na h-áiseanna coitianta do chur ar fáil i Hallaí Bídh na Saighdiúirí. Go dtí so ní raibh riar ná eagar mar is cóir ar chúrsaí biadhlainne aca, agus measadh, maidir le h-am síochána, ná raibh ceart ná cóir á fháil ag an saighdiúir agus an scéal do bheith amhlaidh. D'fhéadfaí an cothrom san do thabhairt dóibh ar dhá shlí—na h-earraí ba ghádh do sholáthar, nó muna ndéanfaí sin, suim áirithe airgid sa bhliain do dheonadh do sna h-aonaid chun na h-áiseanna do cheannach. Tar éis áird chuibhe do thabhairt ar an nídh seo, socruigheadh ar an airgead do dheonadh, de bhrigh go spreagfadh sé sin spéis na bhfear sa ghnó, agus nár ghádh, 'na theannta san, mion-chúntas do thabhairt ar fho-chostaisí. Tá beartuithe, mar sin, aon phúnt déag do bhronnadh mar dheontas bliantúil ar na Cistí Leasa uile i dtaobh gach aonaid go mbíonn céad fear chun bídh ann. Is súil linn, dá bhárr san, go ndéanfar na coiníollacha seirbhíse d'fheabhsú mar aon le saoráidí do sna fearaibh i gcúrsaí bídh do chur in oireamhaint don tsaol atá anois ann.

Milliún, sé chéad is dhá mhíle chaogad, naoí gcéad is cúig púint déag an méid iomlán a meastar a chosnóchaidh an tArm i gcóir na bliana. Den mhéid sin, caithfear suim nach lugha na milliún, trí chéad is cúig mhíle ochtód, céad aon phúnt is nocha ar phearsanra do dhíol is do chotháil, seacht míle caogad, naoí gcéad is naoí bpúint déag ar Iompar, agus ní caithfear ar fhearas teicniúil cogaidh ach amháin dá chéad is naoí míle, cúig púint is ocht gcéad, sé sin le rádh, timpal le dó-dhéag ponnc a seacht fén gcéad den Mheastachán iomlán. Nuair a cuimhnítear air gur dá luighead é an tArm gurb eadh is géire an gádh atá le fearas nua-aimseardha agus gurb é atá tagaithe as fás na hEoluíochta ná costas an fhearais sin do mhéadú in ionad é do luigheadú, caithfear admháil gur measardha ar fad an méid atá á chaitheamh againn ar stóraisí cogaidh.

Baineann a lán den chaiteachas sin le stóraisí d'athnuachaint agus do choinneáil i dtreo, agus seo iad na prímhneithe den Chaiteachas Chaipitil atá roinnte ar na hAonaid, na Cóir agus na Seirbhísí deifriúla:—Stóraisí Chomharthaíochta, dhá mhíle, céad, ceithre púint is dachad; Fearas Puball, aon mhíle dhéag, dachad púnt is ceithre chéad; Cistineacha Machaire, sé mhíle, sé chéad is cúig púint triochad; an tAer-Chór, trí mhíle is dachad is trí chéad púnt; Cáirr Armúrtha, dhá mhíle dhéag púnt; Meaisin-Ghunnaí Eadtroma, sé mhíle dhéag, dhá phúnt is céad; Gunnaí in aghaidh Cárr Rianach, ceithre mhíle, seachtó púnt is seacht gcéad; Fearas Catha, ocht míle púnt; Moirtéirí Trinse, trí mhíle, ochtó púnt is sé chéad; Soillse Cuardaigh Soghluaiste, seacht míle, cúig chéad is sé phúnt seachtód. Sin céad míle is cúig chéad, sé chéad seacht bpúint is dachad.

Mar fhocal scuir, tá áthas orm a rádh i dtaobh an Airm sa bhliain seo ghabh tharainn go ndeachaidh an tréineáil chun cinn ann, go raibh an smacht ar fheabhas, nár tháinig luighead ná caitheamh ar an ndíoghrais agus go raibh an infheadhmacht chuirp chó maith is d'fhéadfadh a bheith.

Mr. Dillon

After that very edifying performance, I suppose it is well to put on record what the true situation is. So far as the Opposition is concerned, we are glad to listen with interest and respect to any Deputy or Minister who desires to address this House in the Irish language.

Donnchadh O Briain

That is a change.

Mr. Dillon

But we do strongly protest against Minister who do not know Irish getting officials in their Department to compile long and indigestible documents in the Irish language, largely written in words of one syllable, in the vain hope that the Minister will be able to pronounce them when he comes to stumble through the document in the House. That is a prostitution of the Irish language and a prostitution of the procedure of this House. The veriest neophyte must have writhed with anger as he listened to the Minister rambling through that document——

Donnchadh O Briain

Ba mhaith liom ceist orduithe a chur ort, A Chinn Comhairle? An bhfuil cead ag An Teachta O Diolúin cur sios ar Ghaedhilg an Aire?

Donnchadh O Briain

Ní hí Gaedhilg an Aire atá i gceist. Isé an Meastachán atá ós ar gcomhair.

Domhnall O Laoghaire

Ar thuig an Teachta an rud a bhí ar siubhal ag an Aire?

An Ceann Comhairle

Níl cainnt an Teachta O Dioluinn as ordú.

Mr. Dillon

It cannot be too strongly emphasised that the use of Irish as a medium for our debates is an excellent practice. The prostitution of Irish and the making of Irish into a laughing stock by resorting to such expedients as the Minister resorted to cannot be too strongly condemned, either from the point of view of those who love the language or from the point of view of those who are solicitous for the proper conduct of parliamentary affairs.

In whatever language you can. If the Minister has abated that giaring injustice, it is greatly to his credit and to the credit of his Department. On the Minister's assurance, I pass from that matter, complimenting him on having removed a glaring inequality. I should like to have some information from the Minister on the general position of sluaighte and the sluaighte halls. We had a parade of the armed forces of the State on Easter Sunday—an occasion on which we all wish to see the Army doing credit to itself, and an occasion on which the Army, I am happy to say, never fails to do so. It is a force of which we may well be proud, and we might have no fear if any strangers were present to see the exercises that take place. Can we say as much for the Sluaighte who took part in this parade? It may be that the juveniles of this city are unduly ribald, but I am told that, since the recent parade of the Sluaighte, we have small children going round with drumsticks, with their tummies stuck out and their shoulders humped, saying, "Now, let us march like a Sluagh." Then they throw their shoulders back, draw their stomachs in, and say, "Now, we will march like a soldier."

I think if the Sluaighte are to reflect credit on the force which they have been privileged to join, we ought to be able to pick from the Volunteer forces all over the country a body of volunteers who will have sufficient training and regard for the uniform they wear to comport themselves as good soldiers on an occasion when they are marching in parade before the Minister of State responsible for the armed forces. I regret to say my impression of the Sluaighte has been that, so far as appearance and martial exercises are concerned, they leave much to be desired and I should be sorry that the standard which they set for themselves should extend to or be accepted in the ranks of the regular Army. If I know the Army well, I do not think there is any immediate prospect of that, but in the meantime I think the Sluaighte should conform to a much higher standard than they appear to have set themselves.

Now we come to the Sluaighte halls. I do not know how far the Sluaighte halls have conferred benefit on the areas in which they have been opened. I have personal knowledge of only one such hall. It is in a district with which I am familiar. I understand the Sluaighte hall there was leased and, so far as I am aware, nobody has ever gone into it since the day it was opened. There were only two members of the Sluagh in the town and recently the entire Sluagh left for England, and now there are not even the two Sluaghs to go into the hall. cannot imagine that such an arrangement is in the best interests of the Army.

I am a great believer in the forces of this State standing above all parties. I think that no matter what Government is in office it is the duty of all public men to encourage respect for the forces of the State and the men who command them, and to encourage in the public mind a general recognition of the fact that these are men who are serving the State as opposed to any particular Government which happens to be in office for the time being. It is not easy to promote respect for the Army and the ancillary services if you have a derelict old hall there which is the Army hall, which is apparently serving no useful purpose and is apparently nothing but a source of expense to the State. I do not know how far that situation is reproduced in other centres. I can only speak from my own personal knowledge of the centre that I know of, and certainly the Sluagh hall there reflects no credit on the administration responsible for it and steps should be immediately taken either to provide a sufficient number of Sluaighte to take advantage of it or else close it and allow the parochial hall to provide for the interests of the local people as it did heretofore.

I would like the Minister to tell us how many claims he has in his Department for pensions under the I.R.A. Pensions Act, for which he was responsible to this House. Rumour sets the figure at a very high level indeed. I have heard it said as many as 50,000 applications were received. No doubt that is a gross exaggeration. I have also heard it said that only 1,000 of such applications had been adjudicated on or disposed of. It is incredible that any Department would have proceeded to the extent of doing only one-fiftieth of their work in connection with this business in the time that they have had at their disposal. An authoritative statement on that matter would put an end to such rumours and would demonstrate that no body of men in this country could be so irresponsible or reckless as to deluge the Minister with 50,000 applications when probably in the country there are perhaps only a couple of thousand men genuinely entitled to relief under the Act in question.

I do not understand Item Z (6). I would esteem it a favour if the Minister will explain that matter. What is meant by receipts from personal clothing purchased by N.C.O.'s and men? Are we to understand that the N.C.O.'s and men have to purchase parts of their uniforms out of their pay? If so, I would like to know what defence can be advanced for such a system. It would appear under Y 3 that the numbers of the Volunteer force are declining. If we take Y 3 in conjunction with Y 2 we find that the moneys appropriated for the Volunteer force are going down and that we anticipate training grants for 11,000 volunteers, including the 1st and 2nd line, in the current financial year, whereas provision for 18,000 men was made in the last financial year. Perhaps the Minister will give us an explanation on that matter. The Minister also made provision for the enlistment of 6,000 volunteers in 1936-37 and he anticipates only 4,000 in the coming year. That is a matter on which the Minister might say a few words.

I notice that provision is made under sub-head A (1) for military educational courses abroad for specially selected officers. I heard to my amazement recently, and I have no doubt Deputy Victory will be shocked to hear it too, that some of our officers were actually studying military science in English military schools. In the midst of this desperate war that we are fighting with Great Britain we are sending our officers over to learn military tactics from them! I am sure that sears the soul of Deputy Victory and I would like him to intervene and tell the Minister what he thinks of sending the armed forces of this State over to learn their business from the base, bloody and brutal British Saxon.

The last matter I wish to raise in connection with this Vote is one of more general interest. It appears perfectly clear that, with the modern development of warfare, the prospects of any State with our resources putting an effective infantry army in the field are very remote indeed. In fact, no army which we could mobilise or arm, if it is to consist principally of infantry and artillery, is going to count as against the modern war machine of one of the wealthier and more populous countries which at present exist, particularly in the Continent of Europe. Modern development seems to have made the aerial arm of great armies disproportionately important and you have immense military and naval establishments admitting that their great size and great power would be virtually useless without an immense air force as well. As I understand the problem, one of the great difficulties about building up an effective air force is not the provision of machines or explosives or fuel; though those do present difficulties of their own, they are not the major difficulties.

The major difficulty is, if you are starting from scratch and have not an adequate air force, and if you want to build yourself up to a great air power, to train pilots and to train competent airmen. You can build an aeroplane, if you are prepared to make sufficient sacrifice, in a comparatively short time, but there is no expedient by which you can make a mechanic into an effective war pilot without a protracted period of training.

I think it is a good thing, within limits, if you are going to have an Army at all, to make that Army as effective as your resources will permit for the defence of the country, and therefore I would suggest to the Minister that he should completely reorient Army policy in that matter. We must have at all times a small and perfectly trained regular Army, much like what we have at present, so that the arm of the law will be maintained by the ultimate sanction of military force if that necessity should arise. The kind of Army we have at present is eminently suited for that purpose— all very highly trained men, very experienced officers, and regular soldiers of long standing upon whose discipline and prudence absolute reliance can be placed. That is the perfect instrument for supporting the arm of the civil law in emergency.

Instead of expanding along the lines of the volunteer plan and giving a half-baked, casual training to a large number of youngsters, I suggest that the Minister could very profitably employ himself in building up a small air force—small in the number of its machines, but having the most modern equipment, and having a more or less revolving personnel, the object being to train an immense number of pilots over and above what the present requirements of the Army are, but which would be there available to expand an air force rapidly if a situation arose in which it became necessary to put this country in a state of defence. To-morrow, if we had to put this country into a state of defence; and if we had immense supplies of aeroplanes from whatever source we could get them, they would be of no use to us at all because the number of pilots available is infinitesimal. If we had over 500 highly trained pilots, either in the Army or on the Army reserve, our Army would become an immensely powerful war instrument potentially. If you had 500 trained pilots, and if you were able to get an adequate number of machines, you would immediately have a very substantial air fleet capable of counting very heavily in the mind of any State that contemplated striking at the integrity of this State. In so far as our Army can be internationally effective. I can see no other way, and I think it would be good for the morale of the Army, good from the international point of view, and good from the point of view of the State at large, to pursue that line, and then I think the Army would feel that they were not only discharging a valuable internal function as being the ultimate sanction of the law, but, in addition to that, that they were a really genuine protection for the national integrity of the State they were concerned to defend.

I have a last word to say. I offer that as an alternative to the policy of pressing forward on the volunteer line of development which is giving casual training to a very large number of young men. This is a matter about which I feel a certain delicacy in speaking but, nevertheless, I think we are doing less than our duty if we do not face it. This policy of giving a casual, half-baked training to an immense number of young fellows, and then sending them back down the country, is open to two very grave objections. The first objection is that it familiarises a large number of young fellows in the country with the use of arms. If they were going to remain under discipline and if they were going to have a protracted period of training, guidance and instruction as to when and how and under what circumstances it is justifiable to use arms, that might not be so objectionable. Where, however, you take a young fellow like that and show him how to use a gun, familiarise him and make him feel at home with lethal weapons in his hands, and then turn him out into the country, quite a number of young men may be tempted to embark on courses which they would never have dreamed of embarking upon if they had not been so familiarised with the use of weapons. The second objection is, perhaps, of greater delicacy. We must face the fact that, not alone in certain countries, whether Germany or France or any other country, but all the world over, the general standards of conduct when a chap goes off on a spell of military duty and when he is not subject, as I say, to constant training and supervision, tend to become loosened. There is a rather general loosening of his general conduct, and he is liable to get accustomed to a standard of conduct very much lower than he ever knew in his own home. Now, some of you may have seen magazines that have been published by Sluagh summer camps. Of course, we must not be too prudish in matters of this kind. Youngsters, when they are gathered together, are liable to be a little more plain spoken in their jests than the more sober members of the community; but when you find published in a magazine, with a caption of "The Regiment of Pearse," pleasantries which, to say the least of it, would be more appropriate in very, very restricted company, and when you find these things printed in black and white in the camp magazine, you begin to realise that there is a standard of conduct and a standard of thought obtaining there very far different from that which obtains in most country homes in this country. If you bring boys up from the country and familiarise them for a week, a fortnight, or a month, with those standards, and then send them back to the country, 80 per cent. of them may be no wrose for the experience, but 20 per cent. will set a very much lower standard for their general conduct at home than they ever set before.

Those are factors that, I think, we ought to weigh carefully if we are choosing between developing the Army along the lines of the volunteer plan and developing it along the lines of making it, for international purposes, an effective aerial instrument. Bearing all these considerations in mind, I have no hesitation in saying that, as a civilian, I think the development of the Army along the lines of making it an effective aerial instrument for international purposes is the best line, and also developing it along the lines it has followed since the inception of the State, and that is the having, for internal operations, a small highly-trained body of officers and men upon whose discretion and prudence we can have absolute dependence. I submit these considerations to the Minister, bearing in mind that in this matter I am a pure civilian, but I hope this House will not fall into the error of thinking that the only person who is competent to have views on military matters is a military person. There are things in connection with military matters that are quite proper for a civilian to discuss and, after all, we in this House are ultimately the people responsible and we are all civilians. I should be glad, therefore, if the Minister would give his consideration to these points I have raised on this Estimate.

Mr. Corish

There is one matter to which I should like to refer on this Estimate, and that is the question of the treatment by the Army authorities of people who contract disease in the service. Those of us who are members of county health boards see from time to time accounts of men who have contracted T.B. during their service in the Army and who are sent down to the county health board for treatment. They are discharged after the course of some time from some of the military hospitals. They are then sent down to the county from which they came and the county health board of that county has to take all liability for any treatment, such as sanatorium treatment, that they may require. I do suggest that it is very unfair when a person contracts tuberculosis or any other disease in the Army, and when he is discharged in consequence of contracting it, or when that disease has been aggravated by service in the Army, that he should be allowed to become a liability on the local ratepayers. The county health board to which I am attached have repeatedly made representations to the Minister and his Department in this connection with a view to the Department taking on that liability. I think any fair-minded person will admit that it is a liability which the Army authorities should discharge or for which they should be responsible. I take this opportunity of asking the Minister to reconsider the decisions that have been made in this matter because it certainly is obvious, or should be obvious to everybody, that this is a charge that should be borne by Army funds and not by local ratepayers, who at the present moment are put to the pin of their collar to meet charges that are mounting rapidly every day.

Mr. O'Leary

My object in rising is to protest against the burden of the Army Vote. When the Government Party were in opposition in 1928 the present Minister for Finance—I am quoting him for the moment; I could quote the present Minister for Defence and the Minister for Industry and Commerce several times to the same effect, if I had time—speaking in this House as reported in Volume 26, page 978, in the discussion on the Army Vote said:

"We only hope that we shall be able to continue the good work and that when next a Minister for Defence comes to submit an Estimate to this House, he will be able to tell the Dáil and the people that the Army will no longer expect out of their savings and the product of their toil £1,800,000 and that we can maintain an Army, as we believe it can be maintained—an Army adequate to the needs of this country— for a sum of something less than a million; in fact, for a sum of something less than three-quarters of a million—and we speak of this matter not without the book."

On page 983 of the same Volume he is reported as stating:

"We have suggested that the Army is too expensive. We do that, as I have said, not because we are antagonistic to the Army but we feel that the expenditure upon it is very much more than this country can afford."

In regard to the air corps, while I realise its importance, I do not think that we should do away with the rest of the Army and concentrate on the air force. The infantry man, the artillery man, the armoured car corps and all the rest of them are as important in their own way as the air corps. We are trying, with the limited funds at our disposal, to see that recruiting and training in all the different corps and branches are kept in step. During the last couple of years we have added a number of trained pilots to the air corps. In addition, we have 15 young pilot officers in training. One of the most important things in connection with the air corps, in order to provide for rapid expansion, is to have a trained ground personnel. That is one of the things in which we are most efficient in connection with the expansion of the air corps. A couple of years ago we adopted a scheme of recruiting boys of 14 to 16 years of age into the Army for ten years, and during that time giving them very specialised training, so that at the end of eight or ten years they would be very highly qualified aeroplane mechanics and fitters. That scheme has been a very big success. During the last 12 or 18 months we have had about 30 boys in training. They have progressed very well. We are looking after their general education and training as soldiers, as well as training them as mechanics and fitters. The other day we advertised for, I think, another 40, and they will start their training as soon as they are picked. Of course I should like to have the 500 trained pilots that Deputy Dillon speaks of, but I think there is not much use in training 500 pilots when you have not anything like that number of machines to give them. Between the regular Army and the reserve, we have as many trained men as would handle three or four times the number of machines that we have.

Committee on Finance. - Vote 65—Army.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 Mar 1937