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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Apr 1938

Vol. 70 No. 13

Public Business. - Vote 54—Lands.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,036,580 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1939, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tailte agus Oifig Choimisiún Talmhan na hEireann (44 agus 45 Vict., c. 49, a. 46, agus c. 71, a. 4; 48 agus 49 Vict., c. 73, a. 17, 18 agus 20; 53 agus 54 Vict., c. 49, a. 2; 54 agus 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38 agus c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; Uimh. 27 agus Uimh. 42 de 1923; Uimh. 25 de 1925; Uimh. 11 de 1926; Uimh. 19 de 1927; Uimh. 31 de 1929; Uimh. 11 de 1931; Uimh. 33 agus Uimh. 38 de 1933; Uimh. 11 de 1934; agus Uimh. 41 de 1936.)

That a sum not exceeding £1,036,580 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission (44 and 45 Vict., c. 49, s. 46, and c. 71, s. 4; 48 and 49 Vict., c. 73, ss. 17, 18 and 20; 53 and 54 Vict., c. 49, s. 2; 54 and 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38, and c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; Nos. 27 and 42 of 1923; 25 of 1925; 11 of 1926; 19 of 1927; 31 of 1929; 11 of 1931; 33 and 38 of 1933; 11 of 1934, and 41 of 1936).

The amount of the Vote for Lands for the year 1938-39 shows a net decrease of £2,766 on the previous year's total. As compared with the figures for 1937-38, only a few of the sub-heads show any marked variation. The principal increases are under subheads A, B and Q and the largest decrease is under sub-head W. These, and a few other items in which a marked difference occurs, are the only sub-heads which call for comment.

Salaries, wages and allowances under sub-head A are increased by £19,220, mainly due to an increase in the inspectorate staff and to normal additions by way of increments of salary. It is hoped that in due course the addition of 34 inspectors to the staff, as provided for in the Estimate for the financial year 1938-39, will enable the Land Commission to cope with the rearrangement and resale of holdings on the late Congested Districts Board's estates which have had to be postponed owing to pressure of general Land Commission work elsewhere. It will naturally take some time for newly-appointed inspectors to become fully proficient in their various duties. The striping of rundale holdings is a particularly difficult and intricate task for which considerable experience is required.

There is an increase of £3,000 under sub-head B to meet the travelling expenses of the additional inspectors authorised.

There is an increase of £490 under sub-head G—telegrams and telephones. This increase is due mainly to a change in the system of providing for the operation of the telephone service, which has grown beyond the capacity of the Land Commission staff and is now performed by trained telephonists supplied by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, whose wages come under sub-head G.

Under sub-head H, the payments under Section 11, sub-section 7 of the Land Act, 1923, in respect of interest and sinking fund on Land Bonds issued for the State contribution to the standard price of lands, and for Costs Fund, are increased by £1,000 consequent on normal progress in the purchase of estates of tenanted land.

Under sub-head I—Improvement of Estates, etc.—there is a slight increase of £550 due to the necessity for additional provision for workmen's compensation which (together with some other miscellaneous items) is included under this sub-head. The figure of £700,000 for improvement works proper is maintained.

Out of last year's Vote under sub-head I a total of over £663,000 has been spent. Rather more than half of this expenditure is in respect of buildings—dwellinghouses and out-offices—so that the Land Commission are making a considerable contribution to rural housing. The exact figures for the number of new houses built during the past year are not yet available, but approximately 620 dwellinghouses have been completed by the Land Commission in the year April, 1937, to March, 1938; and in addition the Land Commission have made advances for the building of some 230 houses to supplement grants made by the Local Government Department. The remainder of the expenditure under sub-head I is in respect of general improvements, such as fences, drains and roads and miscellaneous items. Expenditure under this sub-head adds materially to the economic value of the land and provides useful employment in rural areas. The Land Commission now employ some 6,300 workers (gangers and labourers) and their annual wages bill amounts to about £350,000. About three-fourths of the improvement expenditure represents free grants to the tenants and the remainder is by way of advances repayable by annuities.

Under sub-head J—Advance to Meet Deficiency of Income from Untenanted Lands Purchased under Land Acts, 1923-36—there is a decrease of £1,500 as (other than the payment of rates, herds' wages, etc. on lands taken over by the Land Commission and awaiting disposal) provision under this category need now be made only in respect of land bonds representing the purchase prices of untenanted land vested in the Land Commission but not yet allotted—or, if allotted, where the allottees have not been put upon a purchase annuity basis or deemed to have been so put.

Under sub-head Q, the amount provided to meet deficiencies in the Land Bond Fund arising from the revision of the annuities under Part III of the Land Act, 1933, is increased by £12,000, in view of additional advances expected to be made in the coming year and the consequent revision of the annuities by which such advances are repayable, involving a corresponding addition to the deficiency charge.

Under sub-head W—fees payable in connection with proceedings under Section 28 of the Land Act, 1933— whereby provision is made for the lodgment fees and expenses payable to the county registrars or under-sheriffs in respect of proceedings for recovery of arrears of instalments of land purchase annuities and other annual payments due to the Land Commission — there is the large decrease of £24,000. The Vote under this sub-head for the year 1937-38 was unduly swollen by reason of having to include provision for certain lodgment fees applicable to warrants issued in the previous year in connection with the adjustment of the difficulty created by the omission in Section 28, Land Act, 1933, of the specific power to levy sheriff's lodgment fees and expenses in respect of warrants issued by the Land Commission. This omission was rectified by Section 17 of the Land Act, 1936, and it is estimated that a sum of £16,000 should be sufficient for the coming year. The lodgment fees, when recovered from the defaulting annuitants, are credited as an Appropriation-in-Aid of the Vote.

The Appropriations-in-Aid of the Vote are expected to realise in the coming year £11,965 more than last year, of which £6,000 is attributable to excess annuities arising under Section 7 of the Land Bond Act, 1925. These excess annuities accrue in respect of the resale at enhanced prices due to improvements of lands purchased by the Land Commission and the Congested Districts Board under the Land Purchase Acts, and also in respect of the setting up of additional annuities on the exchange of holdings. The remainder of the increased Appropriations-in-Aid consist mainly of fees collected in connection with proceedings under Section 28 of the Land Act, 1933, and miscellaneous receipts.

It is not yet possible to give a comparative review of the proceedings of the Land Commission during the past year, as the final figures for the full year are not available. Generally speaking, however, progress has been maintained in the four main divisions of the work—the acquisition of untenanted land for division, the improvement of estates, the resale of tenanted land and the collection of land purchase annuities. The acquisition of untenanted land has been hindered by a judicial decision against the Land Commission on a point of procedure, and rectification of the present position is under consideration. The division of untenanted land is hampered by the factor already referred to in introducing the Vote for the Land Commission last year—the decrease in the size of the properties which can now be acquired. There is often just as much time and trouble entailed in the acquisition and division of a small estate as of a big one, and the average size of division schemes continues to dwindle. Thus it can hardly be expected that the remarkable achievements of the last few years should be maintained.

The Land Commission hope to push on the resale of holdings to the tenants during the coming year, both on the 1923-36 Act estates and the Congested Districts Board estates, but here again there are grave difficulties to be overcome, as among the residue of the holdings awaiting final resale are some of the most intricate tenures and troublesome conditions.

The position in regard to the collection of land purchase annuities during the past year shows material improvement.

What material improvement?

Mr. Boland

It is shown that arrears of previous instalments are gradually being recovered and the collection for the November/December gale of 1937 shows a distinct advance on the corresponding gale of 1936, at the make-up of accounts at 31st January. The figures at that date were over 7 per cent. better, and the money in respect of arrears is coming in fairly well since then. I am sure Deputy Dillon will be very pleased to hear that.

I admire the Minister. He has great courage.

Mr. Boland

That is the truth, anyhow.

Nearly three years ago, Sir, namely, on the 6th June, 1935, I found it necessary to move to refer back this Estimate because of the attempt that was being made by the then Minister to create a new low rate of wages for men employed on forestry schemes. On that particular occasion the scheme concerned was at Kinnitty in the County of Offaly.

Mr. Boland

I should like to know, Sir, whether or not we are discussing the Vote for Lands or for Forestry?

What we are discussing at the moment is a motion that the Vote for Lands should be referred back for reconsideration, but forestry also comes under the Department of Lands.

Mr. Boland

What I want to know, Sir, is whether a discussion on forestry is relevant on the present Vote.

You know perfectly well, Sir, that the question of the Minister's salary comes under the Vote for Lands, which includes the Forestry Vote, and I am challenging the Minister on the policy of his Department. I am moving that the Estimate, which includes the Minister's salary, should be referred back for reconsideration. I should be surprised if the Minister pleaded ignorance of that.

Mr. Boland

I should like to remind you, Sir, that the Deputy is moving that the Estimate for Lands should be referred back, and that he is also moving a separate motion that the Vote for Forestry should be referred back. I am not trying to shirk a discussion on forestry at all, but I think the two Votes should be treated separately, and that, if the Deputy is going to refer both motions back, he ought to deal with them in the same speech now.

Well, I am very glad the Minister has raised that point, because, as a matter of fact, the motion handed in was to refer back one Vote. It is my intention to make the one speech on this matter, and, to challenge a division, if it should be necessary, on the one Vote.

Well, that gets me out of a difficulty.

Mr. Boland

That is all right. That will suit me.

Well, at least, I hope it is likely to lead to agreement on the matter now in dispute.

Is Labour going to advocate a reduction in salaries?

No, we will leave that to you. As I was saying, in 1935 I moved, because the Minister at that time took the responsibility of fixing a new low rate of wages of 22/- a week for forestry workers employed in Kinnity, that the Vote should be referred back. On this occasion, as a result of the creation of a new forestry centre at Clonaslee, in the County of Laoighis, the Minister, or his advisers—but it is the Minister who is responsible—has fixed the low rate of 24/- a week while every other forestry worker employed in other forestry schemes in the county has been employed at 28/- a week for the last five or six years, and even before this Government came into office.

On a point of order, Sir, I do not think it is the usual practice to discuss the Forestry Vote on the Lands Vote. I should like to know whether or not it is the Minister's intention to answer all the questions on both Votes when he comes to reply, or whether it is his intention to postpone his answer to Deputy Davin until he has discussed the Vote on Lands. It seems to me as if we are now going to discuss forestry on the Lands Vote, and I only want to know whether we are going to discuss forestry on the Lands Vote or lands on the Forestry Vote, or whether we are going to discuss both together.

Mr. Boland

That is all I want to be clear about. I am quite prepared to deal with both together, but I should prefer to deal with forestry separately.

I ask your protection, Sir, to enable me to follow the proper Parliamentary lines.

The Vote to refer back, in the usual practice, is taken on the particular item that is down on the Order Paper. In this case, the motion to refer back is down under the Estimate for Lands. As far as I understand it, Deputy Davin is not going to move the reference back on the Forestry Vote at all and wishes to have the whole discussion on this particular motion to refer back. The entire administration of the Minister comes under review in connection with this motion to refer back the Vote for Lands.

As I understand it, Sir, the usual practice is that the Minister answers the queries raised by Deputies, when he comes to reply, on each particular Vote. What we want to know is whether or not, on this Vote for Lands, the Minister is also going to answer queries in connection with the question of forestry, because, if so, we all want to raise matters connected with forestry. While I admit Deputy Davin's rights and the Minister's rights, I hold that the House is entitled to know what procedure is to be adopted.

I think the best thing would be to let the various Departments under the Minister's control, whether lands or forestry, come under the one discussion.

Well, Sir, I do not think that is a very convenient arrangement, because they are two widely separated matters.

Yes, but they are all matters coming under the one Department, and could be the subject of one discussion.

Yes, but I should prefer to keep the two Votes separate.

Mr. Boland

I should prefer that, too.

If Deputy Davin desires to speak on forestry now, instead of lands, he can do so, I suppose, but we should like to know what procedure will be adopted.

If the Minister is satisfied, what is the trouble?

Well, now, hold your horses! I want to have a second debate on the question of forestry.

I see the Deputy's difficulty all right.

Mr. Boland

I also am quite anxious to have a separate debate on forestry because everybody knows that there has been a lot of talk about forestry, and I should like to have an opportunity of discussing it separately. I think that the usual practice was to deal, first, with the Land Commission and that then, if anybody wished to do so, they could discuss the question of forestry.

Of course, the difficulty is that the question of the Minister's salary comes under the Vote for Lands.

Mr. Boland

Well, I should like to have an opportunity of dealing with forestry separately.

That is what I want.

If the Minister agrees with Deputy Dillon, are we to take it that there is something wrong about that!

No—only suspicious.

Am I to take it that the House would agree to discuss the Vote for Lands and Forestry together?

I do not think so, Sir.

I would not agree.

I suggest that the only way to do that is to challenge the Minister on the Estimate which includes his salary, and that is to deal with forestry and lands together.

The Deputy is wasting the time of the House, anyhow.

It is only the uneducated Deputies who are wasting the time of the House, and the Deputy appears to be one of them.

I see no way out of the difficulty except to take the two together.

I suggest, Sir, in order to let the House know what the situation is, that Deputy Davin should be allowed to have the debate on lands and then go on to forestry, and that the Minister can say whether he will answer the specific matters raised by Deputy Davin on forestry when the Minister is replying, either in connection with lands or forestry. Doubtlessly, Deputy Davin will agree with that.

Is there any other Deputy who requires to be educated on procedure, Sir?

It is not my function to educate anybody.

In attempting to justify the lowering of the wages of workers employed on forestry schemes, in 1935, the then Minister said that the rate of 22/- a week fixed for the workers at Kinnity at that time was related to the rate supposed to be paid to agricultural labourers working in the same area. I challenged the Minister at the time to produce the figures giving the agricultural rates in the Kinnity area upon which it was alleged this new low rate of 22/- was based. The Minister refused to do so. I now invite the present Minister to give information as to the rates of wages supplied to him, to indicate from what source the figures were supplied and why the rate of 24/- a week is fixed for the workers in Clonaslee when every other forestry worker in the county has been paid 28/- a week for years past. The Minister, speaking in 1935, stated—and it was the first time that I got this information—that he had an advisory committee at his disposal for the purpose of fixing the rates of wages for workers employed on State-aided schemes, including forestry schemes. He went on to say:—

"The overriding consideration which seems to operate with the committee is the rate paid to agricultural labourers and apparently the practice has been in the case of those labourers who may be employed by the Office of Public Works, the Forestry Department and the rest to give 2/- or thereabouts per week more than the agricultural rate that prevails there."

If that is the line of policy pursued by the advisory committee which advises the Minister on this occasion, I submit that in the case of the workers employed at Clonaslee the rate of wages should not be fixed lower than 26/- a week. The Minister ought to be aware that the Agricultural Wages Board, set up by the Minister for Agriculture, issued an order on the 9th August, 1937, fixing the rate for all agricultural labourers employed in this and in every other area in the State at 24/- a week. Therefore, if the policy to-day is the same as it was supposed to be in 1935, there is no justification for fixing the rate at 24/-. I was given to understand that workers employed on State-aided schemes were paid not less than 3/- more than the rate supposed to be paid to agricultural labourers. There is no justification, therefore, on the basis of that information for fixing 24/- a week and I want to know why the Minister is defending that policy, if it is his intention to defend it. Senator Connolly, as he then was, was the Minister at the time and he went on to say, in reply to me:

"I do promise that I will continue to fight this issue and to have something like a decent settlement of it. I cannot say that I will succeed, but I have reasonable hopes that I will not altogether fail."

Concluding the debate—and I would like to remind the Minister of these words and what followed—the then Minister said:

"I can only say that, if the Deputy will trust me, I will do my utmost to have this matter cleaned up, for the credit of the Department and for my own credit, as quickly as it is possible to do it. If he is willing to accept that, that is the best I can do. There is an advisory committee, of which I am not in control."

That is a most extraordinary statement for a Minister to make. The Minister responsible to this House said, in effect, that he is obliged to act on the advice of the advisory committee. Does the Minister now in office suggest that the advisory committee has statutory authority to fix rates of wages for forestry workers and is it as a result of that authority, or whatever authority they claim to have, that this scab rate of 24/- has been fixed for the workers at Clonaslee? I want to get the source, if the Minister will give it to me. He is a straightforward man, and he understands what a straightforward question is. I want to get the source on which was based the rate of wages supposed to be paid by employers in the Clonaslee area. I have definite information, and I am prepared to give the names of the principal farmers if the Minister requires them, of those who are and have been paying their agricultural labourers at 24/- a week. They were paying at that rate before the Agricultural Wages Board issued their order on the 9th August, 1937. It is a disgraceful state of affairs to find a Minister of a Government that claims to be a workers' Government prepared to justify the payment of a rate of wages lower than is paid by decent farmers in the same area for work of this kind.

Following that debate and the division which was taken on that occasion, in which the Minister escaped with the narrow majority of two votes, we had other interesting developments inside a short period. On that particular occasion two of my colleagues, representing the Fine Gael Party, made eloquent speeches in support of my motion to refer the Vote back, but when the division bells rang they smoked with a Fianna Fáil Deputy outside, and they prevented my motion being carried by their deliberate decision not to take part in the division.

Why not give the names?

If the three Deputies who spoke on that occasion had supported their speeches by their votes my motion would be carried by a majority of one, and the Minister would have been compelled to pay these men 28/- or tender his resignation.

Name them.

Deputies O'Higgins, Finlay and Donnelly.

I do not believe it of Deputy O'Higgins or Deputy Finlay. Why, they never missed an opportunity of trying to put this Government out, and you kept them in for the past five years.

Any Deputy who makes a speech in support of the motion should be prepared to walk into the division lobbies in support of it. On the 10th October, 1935, just about four months after this matter was raised here in the House, I received a personal letter from the then Minister for Lands and Forestry in which he said:—

"With regard to the case quoted in the letter addressed to you by Mr. ——, the Inter-Departmental Wages Advisory Committee has access to statistics compiled by the Department of Industry and Commerce relating to the agricultural wages paid in the county generally and the individual cases quoted by Mr. —— cannot be accepted as a basis for the county. In fact, the rate at present being paid is appreciably in excess of the average agricultural rate for the county."

And then comes the final and fairly satisfactory sentence:—

"I might add that the wage rates generally will still be subject to revision with a view to removing existing anomalies."

Shortly after that letter the rate of wages paid to forestry workers at Kinnity were raised from 22/- to 25/-a week. That was a fairly satisfactory result of the discussion. Here we are three years after that decision was arrived at by the then Minister on the advice of the Advisory Committee when the wages were fixed at 25/-, and what is the position to-day? We have this ex-trade unionist Minister, the Minister who was a good trade unionist on one occasion and who has, so far as I am aware, a fairly decent outlook on matters of this kind, coming here and defending the payment of 24/- a week, 1/- less than was fixed for the Kinnity workers nearly three years ago.

Does the Minister realise that the cost of living has gone up in the meantime? Does he realise that anything has taken place which would justify a higher rate of wages than was fixed three years ago for the workers employed in Kinnity? In addition to that does he realise the fact that the Agricultural Wages Board has fixed a wage of 24/- a week for agricultural labourers? I am not going to use any procedure adopted by this House to prevent the Minister from giving a further reply or defending the policy which he now appears to be defending on this issue. The Wages Advisory Committee, set up apparently before I moved my motion, on the 6th June, 1935, took a long time to consider whether they would recommend a payment of 3/- a week increase in the case of men employed on State schemes. That is the manner in which this Government deals with workers engaged on State-aided schemes.

On the other hand, when the Ministers or their chief officials want to justify increases in their own salaries they set up a commission to decide whether they are entitled to increase these salaries. Actually before they received the report of the commission, the Ministers themselves increased their own salaries from £1,000 to £1,700. That is the way this Government treats the matter of increasing the salaries of its Ministers. In regard to the wages of employees on the forestry and other State-aided schemes, I was informed the other day that the Advisory Committee set up some years ago is still sitting. How long is it to remain sitting and giving consideration to the matter of the rate of wages that should be given to workers on forestry schemes? When is this Advisory Committee likely to issue its final report? I strongly suggest to the Government that if they cannot get their Wages Advisory Committee to dispose of this subject in the very near future, they might refer the matter to the Salaries Commission which gave a recommendation in favour of increased salaries for Ministers. That is a recommendation I do very strongly urge. The Salaries Commission have given proof that they can make their report in a very much more expeditious way where the people concerned are people who do not require the increase nearly as badly as do the workers on the forestry and State-aided schemes. The way in which the Government has handled these two matters reveals an extraordinary outlook in the distinction they make in favour of the salaries of Ministers as against the miserable wages paid to forestry workers.

I am advised that a number of workers employed at Clonaslee were dismissed within the last week or ten days. The majority of these dismissals took place on the 2nd April. What is the position there? The workers have been paid off. I have here reliable information on this matter, information that I am sure the Minister will not challenge. I find that of the six men kept on, five of them are single men and only one is married. I regard that as very unfair. Six married men with families from four to seven in number are disemployed while five single men are kept on. What is the policy of the Minister with regard to the recruitment of men employed in forestry schemes? Are they all employed through the local labour exchanges? Were the men employed at Clonaslee employed through the local labour exchange? Is there any order of preference when men are to be turned off as to who are to be put off and who are to be employed? Is there any preference in the case of married men? If so, why has the Department kept on five single men out of six men employed while six married men with families and with the same length of service are disemployed? Will the Minister tell us what is his policy in regard to that matter in the forestry section?

In a forestry scheme that is being carried out at Emo in Leix, a number of men have also been disemployed. I presume this is part of the arrangement in regard to the administration of forestry schemes. I would like to be corrected by the Minister in regard to what has happened in the case of the men disemployed at Emo. All the temporary men have been disemployed in this case, but one man who was employed in a permanent capacity and who was taken on there in 1935 was disemployed by the overseer in charge. I very much regret I have to state all the circumstances in which this particular case has been dealt with by the overseer. What has transpired there? A man named Brennan was employed in Emo in a permanent capacity in 1935; he has been working there since. He must, presumably, have given satisfactory service during that rather lengthy period. His services were, however, dispensed with on last Monday. Brennan saw the local secretary of the Labour organisation in the area and told him that his services had been dispensed with by the local overseer because, as he said, he had no work for him. As a result of that, the secretary of the local Labour branch interviewed the overseer in charge of the works. Then the overseer gave as the principal reason why the man's services were dispensed with that he had not been taken on through the local labour exchange. The branch secretary said that that was not so. This was challenged by the overseer. The branch secretary then went to the local labour exchange and found that what he stated was correct, that Brennan had been taken on through the exchange. I understand that this warrior of an overseer is an active opponent of the Labour Party. I have not met him and I never heard of him until now but if the Minister makes inquiries he will find——

Would it not be better for the Deputy not to make personal charges against an individual or an official in the employment of the Government?

Well, this is a political matter. The overseer said, in reply to the branch secretary, that he fought the Labour Party before and beat the Labour Party. For that reason, I think I am entitled to bring this matter before the notice of the Minister, and to express my amazement that any man's qualifications for employment should be judged by his political views.

Mr. Boland

It is a great pity Deputy Davin did not give me private notice of this case. This is the first I heard of it.

I only received this letter this morning.

Mr. Boland

The Deputy might have waited a little in the case of an official like that before making a charge in the House.

It is a matter of public policy where an overseer in charge of one of your forestry schemes makes the boast that he has dispensed with a man's services for political reasons. The man alleged that he fought the Labour Party before and beat them. It is an extraordinary state of affairs that this man can give as his reason for dispensing with the services of a man employed in this work since 1935 that he is doing so because of political reasons. I am making the allegation that this man's services have been dispensed with for political reasons. This is only one of a number of such cases that has come under my notice in recent times. I will deal with the others later. I feel certain the Minister would not encourage any officer of his Department to engage in this kind of activity. If the Minister or any of his officials are allowed to continue to do this sort of thing, I will engage in a tussle with him in the constituency which I have the honour to represent since this State was established.

I have challenged people who asked me to recommend them for one thing or another because they were members of my Party. The way I look at it is that all the taxpayers' money is being collected to help the Minister to run his Department efficiently, and to employ those who are capable of running their departments efficiently, quite irrespective of political considerations. I am in a position to say that I never yet made any recommendations to any Department in favour of anybody because the person was associated politically with me. Since the Minister came in here, I have made recommendations in favour of men who were violent political opponents of my own. That was because other Deputies in the constituency were not prepared to support the applications of these men. I recommended the men because they deserved the land or the work, or whatever it was they were looking for.

I am not alleging that the Minister would consciously associate himself with political victimisation of this kind. In spite of what the Minister has said, I claim that I have a perfect right to raise this matter here, because this is the only place where it can be ventilated and dealt with in a proper way. I would resign my seat in Leix-Offaly and fight the Minister on that issue if he was prepared to justify this kind of political victimisation. I know the honest electors of that constituency would not support political victimisation of this kind, whether carried on by this or any other Government.

I also want to raise on this Estimate the question of the delay—I dare say it applies to other constituencies also—on the part of the Forestry Department in acquiring large tracts of land in my constituency, where land has been offered to them by people who are willing to dispose of it at a nominal rate, or whatever reasonable figure the Land Commission is prepared to pay for the land. I know of a case in North Leix where an area amounting to over 1,000 acres has been offered to the Forestry Department for some considerable time past, and I am not aware that any active steps have been taken to have these lands acquired. I should like to hear what is the position in regard to the acquisition of such land or what is the cause of the delay in acquiring land when it is offered in large tracts by people in areas of the kind I have mentioned.

I also want to protest against the delay on the part of the Land Commission in acquiring estates where the preliminary steps had been taken long before this Government came into office. I refer in particular to the untenanted land of Lord Castletown at Ballacolla, County Leix. It is surely ten or twelve years ago since I first raised the question of the acquisition of these lands in this House. I raised the matter again in correspondence recently, and I was given the same reason by the present Ministry as I was given ten or twelve years ago—that an objection had been lodged by the owner to the proposed acquisition of the land, that the matter was under consideration and that a decision would be given as soon as possible. Would the Minister mind —I hope I am not pressing him unduly —if I asked him to get the file in connection with that case and give the House the real reason why these lands are not being acquired, seeing that the matter has been under consideration for such a long period?

I desire to refer also to the Alley estate in the same area of South Leix. That case has been under consideration for many years. I dare say there are small holders and landless men who were told five or six years ago that they were going to get portions of that land after the 1932 election when the new Government came into office, but I suppose they are as near getting it to-day as they were five or six years ago. Is there any insuperable difficulty in the way of acquiring these lands or is there some legal difficulty? We have had many amendments of the Land Act since 1923, and I hope it will not require further legislation to enable the Land Commission to acquire these lands.

I should like in this connection also to direct the Minister's attention to the Dames estate, the Smith estate, Down estate, the Weld and the O'Brien estate, near Edenderry. I suspect, although I am not a suspicious-minded person, that people have been making representations not to have these lands acquired. It is alleged locally that certain people have come to the land inspectors and have got satisfactory assurances that this, that and the other estate is not being acquired. However, it is time, after a period of ten or 12 years, that the people of the locality should be finally informed whether it is the intention to acquire these lands and, if so, when they are likely to be divided. Notwithstanding all we may hear of the losses entailed in carrying on agricultural operations, there is land hunger in almost every area in my constituency where estates are available for division. I should much prefer to see my constituents getting small holdings in their native counties rather than that they and their sons should be compelled to go to England or somewhere else where work is available. The lands I have mentioned include a large area of untenanted land of a good type. I think the promises that have been made over so many years should be fulfilled within a reasonable period.

I should like also to draw the attention of the Minister to what I believe, in some cases at any rate, is the rather lengthy delay in disposing of applications for grants for the erection or reconstruction of houses. Practically all my dealings with the Land Commission are carried on through correspondence, and I have been getting the same reply in respect of some applications for housing grants for a fairly long number of years. Is the Minister prepared to say to the House that he has not the necessary staff at his disposal to deal with these applications within a reasonable period? If so, as far as I am concerned, I shall support any increase in the Estimate that will provide the necessary staff to deal with these applications within a reasonable period. There is undoubtedly undue delay in disposing of a number of these applications. I should like to hear from the Minister—and he has a very good body of officials to supply him with figures of this kind—how many applications of that kind have been received during the last four or five years on the average, and how many of these applications have been disposed of to date. If the Minister would provide us with figures of that kind, he would indicate to Deputies whether there is any "go slow" policy on the part of the Department.

I also want to draw the Minister's attention—and it is a serious matter from my point of view—to the fact that applications for land by cottage tenants, in cases where land has recently been divided, have been mainly ignored. I should like to hear from the Minister what is his policy, and the policy of the commissioners, in dealing with applications for land made by cottage tenants living in close proximity to land which is being divided. I feel that I must give him a case in support of my argument. Quite recently a small acreage convenient to the town of Mountmeilick was being divided, the lands of a Mr. Morgan. There was a very large number of deserving applicants including a number of cottage tenants living in close proximity to these lands. I am aware that five cottage tenants made application for portion of the land but not one of them got a perch of the land although it was being grazed by cows and other livestock, which they required for domestic purposes.

Three of the people who received land under this particular division scheme had valuations of £9 5s., £13 and £14, respectively, while a tenant living in a labourer's cottage, with a grown-up family, an industrious agricultural labourer, who gave good service in pre-Truce days, was ignored. This cottage tenant had grazing land, and a family of 15 children to support but his claim was ignored, while the three gentlemen with the valuations I mentioned, got portions of the land. I am not unduly suspicious, but I have reason to suspect that political influence played some part in the final division scheme carried out in that case. I have reliable information that four months previous to the land being divided, one of the principal officers in the local Fianna Fáil branch stated behind his counter that not one of these tenants would get a perch of the land. When I was informed of that, I am sorry to say, I did not take any notice of it. Unfortunately, it turned out to be true. I know also that the same local officer in the Fianna Fáil organisation gave information in pre-Truce days to people who were not supporting the fight for independence.

That is going very far.

I will prove it.

Somewhere else, not here.

I say that, because information given me about this land turned out to be correct. I want to know who is at liberty to get information beforehand concerning land division schemes. Are Deputies sitting on the Fianna Fáil Benches entitled to get such information from the Land Commission? If so, I am entitled to get the same information, and I will insist on getting it. I always understood that Land Commission officials were strictly debarred from giving information in advance to anyone, or giving the names of people who were going to get portions of an estate that was to be divided. I do not ask for such information if other Deputies do not get it. If other Deputies are entitled to get such information, or by some direct or indirect means get access to it, I demand that every other Deputy should be entitled to the same information. In this particular instance, I strongly protest against the glaring injustice that was done to these five cottage tenants in the carrying out of the division scheme.

That is not the only case I want to refer to. A division scheme was also carried out about the same time at Hayden's farm, in Emo, County Leix. I have not sufficient information at my disposal to suggest that all those who got portions of that land are not suitable tenants, or that they would not work the land, but it is a striking fact that the claim of the father of a tenant of a cottage, with ten children, who had grazed the land, was not taken into consideration. That man's claim was cut out while other people with a good acreage of land were given preference. I come now to another case concerning the treatment of cottage tenants in my constituency. An estate known as that of Constance Brown, close to the village of Monegall, in Offaly, was divided a few years ago, and a large number of cottage tenants in the village, who have cows and other live stock grazing there, or in the vicinity, applied to be allotted portion of the land. Some of these people I know to be well worthy of having small farms. They have the necessary capital, and have experience as agricultural labourers, while some of them are also road workers. They were deprived of any portion of the land on this estate. I took the matter up with the Land Commission and protested against the action of the commissioners in ignoring the rightful claims of those residents in Monegall. I wrote to the Land Commission on the 25th March, 1935, and on the 15th August in the same year I received the following reply:—

"With reference to your letter of the 25th March last enclosing correspondence regarding the above estate I am desired by the Land Commission to state that the applications of... were considered in connection with the preparation of the scheme for the division of the lands but it was not found possible to include them therein...."

Here is the concluding paragraph of the letter:—

"These applicants will, however, be considered in the event of other suitable lands becoming available."

What has transpired since? The Land Commission sent an official to the area some four weeks ago with instructions to interview all applicants on the Minchin estate convenient to the village. I believe the Minister has information that will confirm what I am saying, that the inspector interviewed people living a long distance from the estate, but took the precaution of failing to interview any of the applicants who had previously been deprived of land on another estate, but whose claims were promised consideration in the letter I read. The Minister can hardly suggest that that letter was written without due consideration, in view of the protest I made in March, 1935, against the action of the commissioners in ignoring the claims of these people. I take it that the reply of the 15th August, 1935, was a considered reply, and that it was intended to carry out what was stated in the last paragraph, that these applicants would be considered in the event of any other suitable lands becoming available. These things disclose to me some sort of clear cut policy on the part of the Land Commission to cut out of consideration the claims of cottage tenants, where land has been divided.

I have another case to mention. I have been protesting for four or five years by way of questions and correspondence against the failure of the commissioners to acquire land in the Shinrone area, a village in Offaly. There are 20 or 21 cottage tenants there without a bit of land on which to graze a cow or other livestock. They have to get grazing from a number of ranchers around the village. I invite the Minister to look up the files, and to satisfy himself as to the lengthy period over which these negotiations for the acquisition of land are supposed to go on, and to see what has been done about it. Nothing has been done, nor is it likely to be done, to meet the reasonable claims of cottage tenants in that village who have been looking for land over a lengthy period. I quoted the letter in order to justify my allegation that the claims of cottage tenants in my constituency are not getting fair consideration as suitable applicants when land is divided. I want the Minister to say why that is so, or if it is a deliberate and clear-cut policy on the part of the Commissioners, and if it is supported by the Minister.

I also want to find out from the Minister the method of recruiting men for employment where land improvement schemes are being carried out, and why, in many cases, men in receipt of unemployment assistance in the areas concerned are being ignored while people with land are employed. I understood it was the deliberate policy of the Government to give preference in the way of employment to those in receipt of unemployment assistance. If that is so, it should be carried out by the Land Commission, as well as by the Board of Works and other State Departments. I would be delighted to know the qualifications required by men who get work as gangers on Land Commission improvement schemes. Is it necessary for them to have a recommendation from a local Fianna Fáil Deputy, or from the secretary of the local Fianna Fáil cumann, before their applications will be considered for positions of that kind? If not, what are the qualifications required, and how are these men recruited?

I should like to hear from the Minister if any progress has been made regarding a suggestion that was made in this House, before he took charge of the Department, for carrying out bog reclamation schemes. I understood from the Minister's predecessor that serious consideration was being given to a nation-wide proposal for carrying out bog reclamation work, so as to avoid the necessity for migration, and to have schemes of the kind carried out in almost every county. Are these bog reclamation schemes held up because the banks will not provide the money to carry out a nation-wide scheme, or what is the reason for the hold-up over such a lengthy period?

The scheme was discussed in the House on the Estimate for the Minister's predecessor. I hope that when replying the Minister will give us some information as to whether that scheme has been dropped altogether, and, if not, what is the cause of the delay in proceeding with it. As far as I know the scheme was a very sound one. I would advise the Minister to see the people who will find the money because if a scheme of that kind is carried out it will provide employment in almost every county in the Free State.

I regret the necessity, personally, for having to raise the matters that I have referred to, but I am convinced that there is a certain amount of political interference by supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party, and by members of this House as well, in the country with Land Commission officials who are, I believe, anxious to do their duty impartially if they are allowed to do it. I want to make my position quite clear in regard to anybody who may be involved. I understand that the inspectorate branch of the Land Commission has been reorganised, or partly reorganised, in my area inside the last five or six months, and anything that I am saying here to-day is not to be taken as an allegation against the senior inspectors for the counties of Leix or Offaly, or against any of the old inspectors who have been operating in that part of the country for some years past. As far as I can find out these things have been dragged into Land Commission activity by some new inspectors who like to get into the political good wishes of the Minister and some of his principal officials. They may be doing these things without any authority, but I want it made quite clear by the Minister, when replying, that preference for employment on works carried out by the Land Commission, preference for land that is available to be divided by the Land Commission, is not being given to persons on the basis of their political affiliations, and that every citizen in this State who makes an application for land, be he cottage tenant, landless man, evicted tenant or a worker who had been previously employed on the estate that is acquired, will have his application considered without any reference whatsoever, locally or at headquarters, to his political associations, either past or present.

I had not an opportunity of hearing the whole of the Minister's statement. I understand from my colleague Deputy Brasier that certain vital information which would be exceedingly useful for the purposes of this debate was not given by the Minister. I also understand from my colleague that the Minister did not give any information about the area of untenanted land divided during the past year, nor did he say anything about the number of tenanted holdings that had been vested. I must confess that I sympathise with Deputy Davin because the Minister and the Government have shown such poor gratitude to the Deputy for the splendid support that he and his Party have given them during the past five or six years.

I am not looking for anything but fair play.

I can well imagine what the Deputy's feelings must be. In examining this Estimate, the first thing that strikes one is the enormous increase in the cost of administration. In the financial year 1932-33 the cost of administration for the Land Commission was £588,102 as compared with £1,740,380, in the Estimate that we are discussing to-day. In other words, the cost of administering the Land Commission is to-day three times more than what it was in 1932. I wonder is the country getting value for that huge increase? Taking the figures in the report, I find that, notwithstanding all that the Minister's predecessors said about the increased rate at which they were dividing land, the figures for 1936-37 only amount to approximately 80,000 acres, not even double the rate at which land was being distributed before the Fianna Fáil Party took office. I also find that the rate of vesting tenanted land for that year was only the same as the rate at which tenanted land was vested during the year prior to the Fianna Fáil Party becoming the Government of this country. The Minister will remember that in the year 1931 there was a special Act passed by the Dáil which contained a number of clauses designed primarily to expedite the vesting of land, and I think that even before the Fianna Fáil Party took office machinery was devised, and was actually in operation, for the purpose of expediting the vesting of that land.

The Minister stated to-day that he is going to appoint 34 new Land Commission inspectors. If my figure is wrong I am open to correction, but that was the figure that I understood the Minister to give. I was always under the impression that the Land Commission was adequately staffed. I would be interested to know from the Minister what will be the duties of these new inspectors when they are appointed. Is the Minister satisfied that he has such an organisation in the Land Commission as will ensure that the very best work is got from these new appointees. I have the impression myself that the Land Commission is rather top heavy at the present time, and I think it is very unwise not merely from the standpoint of the Land Commission but from the standpoint of the country as well to make a number of new appointments without making sure, first of all, that you will be able to utilise the services of these new appointees to the very best possible advantage.

I understand that the Minister, further on in his statement, boasted of the very satisfactory condition of the rate collection. He said that there was an improvement of 7 per cent. as compared with the previous financial year, and another statement was that there was a considerable improvement in the collection of the Land Commission annuities. I had the following question on the Order Paper yesterday addressed to the Minister for Lands: "If he will state the total amount of the arrears of Land Commission annuities outstanding on the 31st January last under each of the Land Acts from 1885 to 1923, inclusive." The Minister's reply was in the form of a tabulated statement showing the amount of arrears outstanding under each of the Land Acts from 1831 to 1936. Totting up the amounts, I get the enormous figure of £1,278,436 outstanding on the 31st January last. When I look back over the Estimates for the year 1932-33 I find that the total arrears for the financial year 1931-32—and, mark you, these were the accumulated arrears over a period of 30 years—amounted to £607,172. At that time the tenant farmers were paying the full amount of the Land Commission annuities. The arrears, as I say, were only £607,172. That had been accumulating for a period of approximately 30 years. Some members of the Dáil will remember that in the Act introduced in 1933 the Land Commission annuities were halved and a large proportion of the arrears funded. Since 1934 we have accumulated in arrears of halved annuities the sum of £1,278,436. That is up to the 31st January last. In these circumstances, the Minister cannot say that the position with regard to the land annuities is satisfactory. That shows that there is something seriously wrong in the condition of affairs in the country. I realise perfectly well that the Minister or the Land Commission cannot be held solely to blame for this condition of affairs—that the economic policy pursued by other Departments of the Government have had repercussions on the work of the Land Commission. It is perfectly evident from the figures I have quoted that these repercussions have been very serious. I maintain that a very serious condition of affairs is disclosed, because it is obvious from the official figures given by the Minister that during the last three or four years there has been an increase in the arrears of land annuities every year. That is to say, there has been a yearly increase since 1933 or 1934. I ask the Minister seriously to consider what the position will be in a few more years if present conditions continue and if the arrears continue to accumulate at the present rate. These figures show clearly that slightly more than 50 per cent. of the halved annuities are outstanding at present.

Let us carry our examination further. What do we find? There are Deputies present who will be able to recall the long discussion we had on Section 28 of the Land Act, 1933. Under that section, a new system was devised for collecting arrears of land annuities. The members of this Party opposed that section strenuously, and the figures disclosed by this Estimate justify the opposition we then offered. At present the Land Commission simply issue something in the nature of a writ—I forget what the official name of the document is—to the sheriff. Under the authority of that writ, the sheriff can go out to the holding of any tenant-farmer who is in arrear with his annuities, seize whatever stock he finds there and realise the amount due. Prior to that Act the procedure was different. The unfortunate tenant who was in arrear with his land annuities had a right to appeal to the courts and had the protection of the courts. Oftentimes the courts assisted him in getting time to meet his liability and in other ways.

Looking at the figures for the year 1931-2—these figures are shown in the Appropriations-in-Aid at the end of the Estimate—we find that the total amount realised by way of costs as a result of proceedings against the unfortunate defaulters was £4,000. Looking at the Estimate we are now discussing, we find that the amount of fees, presumably collected by the sheriff, is £12,000. In addition to that, there is the sum of £1,200 collected in respect of costs. Probably the costs relate to cases antecedent to the Land Act, 1933. In other words, £13,200 has been realised in fees and costs from the unfortunate tenant-defaulters. These figures conclusively show that for every tenant-farmer in arrear with his Land Commission annuities in the days when we were in office there are four to-day.

Let us carry the examination further. The Minister referred specially to the amount being spent on the improvement of estates, erection of dwelling-houses, and so on. I agree that that is a very useful form of expenditure, that it is necessary to carry out improvements to estates before they are divided, and that it is also necessary to assist tenants by the erection of houses and out-offices. Going back to the financial year 1931-2, we find that the amount set down for the improvement of estates was £191,050 and we find that for the present year the amount is £709,300. In other words, the improvement of estates to-day is costing four times the amount it cost in the financial year 1931-2. To put it another way, you are spending £9 on improving every acre of land you divide amongst congests to-day, whereas in the year 1931-2 £3 10s. was spent on such improvements. It will be admitted that very useful and very efficient work was done in this way in the years prior to 1933. The Minister stated to-day—I made a note of his figure—that of the amount spent last year on the improvement of estates— £708,000—£350,000 was paid in wages.

Mr. Boland

That is right.

That seems to be an enormous amount to pay in wages out of a total expenditure of £708,000. I wonder if the figure is absolutely correct. It is not the same as the proportion that usually exists in constructional work carried out by boards of health and public bodies.

The relationship I think is 40 per cent. to 60 per cent. or thereabouts. There are members of the Labour Party listening to me and they will be able to say whether the figures I have given are correct or not. But £350,000 does represent an enormous amount to spend on wages, particularly as Deputy Davin tried to make the case that the labourers working on Land Commission schemes are very inadequately paid. However, it is, as I say, a big proportion. The Minister has not given the figures for land distribution.

Mr. Boland

I have not got up-to-date figures because, as the Deputy knows, it is pretty early in the year. They will not be as high as last year. Somewhere about 60,000 acres, I explained——

I can assure the Minister that I have no fault to find with him for slowing down land distribution somewhat, because my experience is that he cannot continue to divide land at the rate at which his predecessor was dividing it and do it efficiently and effectively. There is a certain limit beyond which it is not judicious to go if you are to have a proper distribution of land. After all, while it is frequently said that there can be no final settlement of the land problem, I do think it is the duty of the Land Commission to make the best effort possible to ensure that the work of the Land Commission shall be final. For that reason, I consider that it is essential that inspectors should make minute and careful inquiries into the claims of every applicant for land so as to make as certain as is humanly possible that the man finally selected is the man best entitled to land.

There is only a limited acreage of land available for distribution. I have given figures on many occasions in the Dáil which showed that no matter how we try we cannot provide for more than 40 per cent. of the congests, in other words, 40 per cent. of the people looking for land. For that reason, I have always held that it is incumbent on the officials of the Land Commission responsible for land distribution to exercise the greatest possible care to see that the claims of every applicant for land are investigated thoroughly and exhaustively and that they make certain that the man who eventually does get the land is the man entitled to it. By rushing land distribution you cannot possibly do that. As a matter of fact, it is a characteristic of the policy of the Fianna Fáil Party ever since they took control of the Government to rush everything. They are rushing building and land distribution and rushing in every other direction. I have a theory myself, that temperamentally and psychologically—there is a better and more appropriate word but I cannot think of it at the moment—we are not capable of doing good work under rushed conditions. But, if we are to do good work, we must take a reasonable time to do it. It is a grave mistake for any Department to rush work, especially work involving a big expenditure of public moneys. For that reason, I say that the Land Commission should see to it above all things that when land is distributed it is well distributed, and that there will be no aftermath, if any action of theirs can possibly prevent it.

We have only a few years to live.

The Deputy should not think of Fianna Fáil only. Fianna Fáil may have only a few years to live, but they should lay foundations which are enduring, and not only while Fianna Fáil last. I have referred to the delay in vesting. I have not the figures for last year, but, according to the report for the financial year 1936-37, there were 2,412 holdings vested in that year. My recollection is that there has been no improvement whatever in the rate of vesting as compared with 1931 or 1932. I will be interested to know from the Minister what is holding up vesting. Are the sections of the Act of 1931, that were specially designed to expedite vesting, fully in operation, or is the staff engaged on examining into title, etc., not adequate to speed up the work of vesting? It may be, of course, that the figures for last year are an improvement on the previous year's, and I sincerely hope they are. In any event, there would want to be a substantial increase before they would reveal any marked improvement on the figures for the years prior to 1932.

I do not know whether the Minister said anything about the experiment he is carrying out with regard to the migration of colonies of Irish speakers from West, South and North to the fat lands of Deputy O'Reilly's constituency. I was told he made no reference to that experiment. I am seriously interested in the experiment, and I should like to know how it is succeeding. Is it the Minister's intention to carry the experiment still farther? Will he bring more migrants from West, North and South to the fat lands of Meath, or will he, as a result of the experience he has gained over the past few years, go back to the policy, which I and other members of my Party have advocated in the Dáil on many occasions when discussing this Estimate, of taking out the bigger farmers from the Gaeltacht areas and distributing the land which they leave behind to the type of man who was migrated during the last few years to the fat lands of Meath? Frankly, I cannot see that the experiment is going to succeed. Nevertheless, I hope the Minister will have cheerful news to give the House and the country. Right from the outset I could not see that it was humanly possible for an experiment of that kind to succeed. Even from the point of view of propagating the language, I do not believe that the scheme is sound. If the Irish language is to be propagated successfully, if it is to spread out from the Gaeltacht to the English-speaking areas, the only logical and sensible way to do it is to allow and to encourage it to spread out from its native home to the areas where English is generally spoken. There is the danger that those people who have been migrated into purely English-speaking surroundings may succumb to their environment eventually, and become just as English as the people amongst whom they are living.

There were some improvement schemes of reclamation on which the Minister told us last year that he was engaged, one in Donegal, another in Connemara, and another somewhere near Belmullet. I am interested to know how these schemes are progressing; if the Minister is satisfied that the money he has spent so far on them has been worth while; and if this expenditure is likely to give good results in the years to come. There is also an item here under sub-head J—"Advance to meet deficiency of income from untenanted lands purchased under the Land Acts, 1923 to 1937." There is a reduction this year as compared with last year, but even so the amount of £10,000 appears to be somewhat abnormal. I should like to know if this loss has been incurred mainly by the letting of the lands to tenants until such time as the Minister was in a position to put allottees on them. I did not hear the Minister's explanation of that item when introducing the Estimate, but the loss certainly does appear to be very substantial and it is necessary to have some explanation of it.

The Minister at the present time is engaged on giving loans to farmers who are building or reconstructing houses. I do not see these loans provided for in any of the sub-heads of this Estimate. Perhaps the Minister will explain how that money is obtained. Is it obtained by selling land bonds, or how is it provided for in the Estimate? I cannot see any reference to it in any one of the sub-heads or in any of the explanatory paragraphs relating to those sub-heads. I also see an amount of £17,250 for committee and land bank cases. I think it was last year the Minister told us that those cases were almost finished and that he hoped, when introducing the next Estimate, to be in a position to tell the Dáil definitely when there would be an end of the payments in respect of this particular type of case. Why is it that this year the Minister has been forced to increase the provision for those cases? I notice there is an increase of roughly £200 as compared with the previous year. Four or five years ago, I was under the impression that all those cases had actually been dealt with. There was a very small number left, I know, at the end of 1931, but presumably some new cases have come in since? Otherwise, I cannot understand why there should be such a large amount put in the Estimate to meet expenditure on this type of case.

I do not think there is any other point that I wish to raise on this Estimate. I believe I have dealt with all the essential points, but I want to repeat what I said at the outset, that in my opinion the country is not getting value for the enormous amount of money which is being spent on the administration of the Land Commission at the present time.

A Leas-Chinn Comhairle, I presume it will be in order to discuss the Forestry Estimate now? After Deputy Davin had spoken I believe it was agreed that it could be dealt with?

I understood that the arrangement was that both Estimates would be before the House in so far as the policy of the Minister is concerned.

The Forestry Estimate is not being taken now?

We were in a difficulty, seeing that Deputy Davin had moved the motion to refer back.

Only with regard to the Land Commission.

He made a case against the Minister's policy with reference to wages on the forestry schemes, and so it was decided that both the Departments under the control of the Minister would be under discussion.

I should like to say at the outset that I do not claim any personal practical knowledge of either forestry or anything connected with it. Anything I know has been what I heard, what I have read in books and from investigations that have been made.

Mr. Boland

I should like to raise this point. I will find it very difficult to deal with the two Estimates together. Deputy Davin insisted on his right to raise matters connected with forestry, but if Deputies are going to mix up the Forestry and Land Commission Votes I will find it very difficult to reply.

The Minister has not made his statement on forestry.

Mr. Boland

No, and I have not asked the officials dealing with forestry to be here, because the procedure in other years was that the Land Commission Vote was taken separately. As Deputy Davin insisted on his right, I expressed the wish to deal with both Votes separately, and I should be glad if Deputy Dowdall would agree to let the Land Commission Estimate go and then deal with forestry.

I endeavoured to make it clear—whether I did so or not is another matter— that we were discussing the Minister's policy. Matters of detail would not arise. It was the Minister's policy with reference to the administration of the Forestry Department that Deputy Davin proposed to discuss.

The Minister has no policy on the Land Commission because he has no power.

I am sorry I was absent when Deputy Davin started his speech, but I happened to come in at what I might call a critical time as far as I—one of the Fianna Fáil Deputies for the constituency—was concerned. In one sense, I am sorry that I was present when an experienced Deputy, a man of long standing in this House, chose under cover of the privileges of this House to attack a person outside who cannot defend himself here. By insinuation he alleged that certain information was gathered from Land Commission inspectors and passed on to some prominent Fianna Fáil supporter outside, a person who, although the Deputy did not name him, can be very easily identified in County Leix when the Deputy's speech appears in the local newspapers next week. I think that kind of attack is very unfair, but here and now I am in the happy position of being able to contradict the statement in the presence of those who heard Deputy Davin make his speech. What he stated is absolutely wrong. He insinuated that I—although he did not name me—as Fianna Fáil Deputy for the constituency got information four months ago from the Land Commission inspectors dealing with land division in the area, and that I was able to inform this particular person in Mountmellick, a man for whom I have great respect, that certain cottagers would not even be considered in connection with that division of land. I flatly contradict the statement that I ever got any information from a Land Commission inspector. I make no apology to Deputy Davin or to anyone else—I am sure the Minister for Lands will allow me to say that not even to him do I make any apology—if I, in the discharge of my Parliamentary duties, make recommendations to the Land Commission in respect of any people in the district, whether they are supporters of Fianna Fáil or of Labour or of anyone else. I am sure that I am as anxious as Deputy Davin to see the land of this country fairly divided amongst the best applicants. I am glad to be able to say that the Deputy's statement is absolutely incorrect. No inspector of the Land Commission gave me any information whatever on that subject. Although no name was mentioned, the people of Leix will know very well the person who was referred to. The Deputy made an unfair and an uncalled for attack on that particular person which, to say the least of it, was very unparliamentary.

I do not agree that the cottagers were singled out to be left outside the scheme. In the particular instance referred to, it did happen that four or five cottagers living nearby were passed over, but I can tell Deputy Davin, through the Chair, that I recommended those cottagers just as well as he did, and that others probably recommended them too. There is nothing wrong about that. I should be glad to see some of the cottagers concerned getting land. I do not know why the inspector could not see his way to give it to them, except perhaps that the acreage of land was so very small. I know other instances of land divisions which have gone through this year where cottagers have been included. I can, if need be, point to six or seven instances of cottagers who were included in those division schemes. That is quite contrary to the statement made by Deputy Davin. Again, I want to emphasise that Deputy Davin is absolutely wrong in suggesting that the Land Commission was putting Fianna Fáil Deputies in the constituency in a privileged position over him. Again, I say that I make no apology to Deputy Davin or anyone else for recommending anyone for inclusion in those schemes, no matter what political camp he belongs to. I have commonsense enough to know that after I or any other Deputy of the House make a recommendation, the Land Commission staff of inspectors have power to examine the matter and decide for themselves. They have absolute power to decide for themselves, irrespective of what recommendations are made to them.

Deputy Davin referred to the delay in the acquisition of certain estates. In some instances, I should like if the acquisition could be speeded up, but I dare say that there are reasons for the delay. I have made representations to the Land Commission and the Minister on previous occasions asking that certain estates be dealt with in view of the fact that they had been a long time under way. I do hope that these things will be expedited.

There is just another point which I should like to make. Deputy Davin referred to political victimisation in connection with the employment of forestry workers. I do not want to make any particular point with regard to what I am going to say, but I know that, recently, four or five supporters of Fianna Fáil were laid off work down there by the Forestry Department at the conclusion of the planting season. I am not going to claim that those people were victimised, and I doubt very much if Deputy Davin's attack, about the laying off of men as a result of political victimisation, is correct. However, I do not propose to say any more on that subject at this stage.

There are a few points that I should like to make in connection with this particular Vote, because I have had a great deal to do with activities connected with the Vote, and because there is no doubt that it is one of the most important Votes that come before this House. I should like to draw the attention of the Minister, first of all, to the amount of derelict land existing in the area which I have the honour to represent. I think that the question of what is to be done with these derelict lands is a matter for some serious thought. Right opposite my house, for instance, there is a farm of 80 acres of quite good land, and it seems that nothing under the sun can be done with it. It is simply a commonage for all the animals in the country. Similar cases exist in the parish in which I live, and I have been instrumental in doing something to rectify that state of affairs by getting the lands taken up and having improvements made by the previous occupiers, but I think it is a matter to which I should draw the Minister's attention.

The Minister did not tell us the amount of untenanted land divided —or, at least, I did not hear him tell us—and that is a thing in connection with which we should ask for some speeding up by the Department's inspectors. I quite understand the huge amount of work the Land Commission inspectors have to do, and I know that the procedure to be followed is fairly complicated and lengthy. At the same time, however, I think that some machinery should be adopted to speed up the division of these lands so long as they are being offered for division. Another thing that is important is that it is necessary that those to whom the lands are allotted should have some capital with which to work their holdings. It is utterly useless to give holdings to people if they have not the necessary capital or experience with which to work the holdings. For instance I know of one case, in the parish of Aghada, where one allottee, in possession of a fairly good holding, is in receipt of public assistance and other tenants of holdings are in the same position. Now, I am sure that that was not the intention of those who framed the Act. In this connection, I should like to have some information from the Minister, when he is replying, with regard to the Murphy estate at Cloyne, the Kenefick farm at Ballycroneen, Cloyne, Castlemartyr demesne, and Rostellan. Aghada. There are lands for division there, and I should like to have some information as to the class of men who are getting these holdings.

Anther case on which I have been asked to get some information is in connection with lands that were divided under the Act of 1919. There are about 360 tenants concerned. These were British ex-Servicemen, and they are tenants of lands in various counties, such as Wexford, Wicklow, Dublin and so on. The Minister will remember, that, under that particular Act, lands were acquired at exceptionally high prices—the peak prices—and I understand that some of those tenants wrote to the President before he came into office and that he referred them back to the British Government. These farms are now under the Irish Land Commission, but while an extra 5 per cent. of relief was given to those men, the actual capital sum which was paid for those lands, on which their annuities were based, is so absolutely out of all proportion to the annuities paid by neighbouring farmers, that I must again draw the Minister's attention to the disabilities under which those men labour, particularly where you have had to put into operation special proceedings which are taken with regard to unpaid land annuities. When I was formerly in this House some years ago I introduced some of those men to the then Minister for Lands and at that time he promised to explore every avenue to see what could be done with regard to their case. Unfortunately, however, under the 1933 Act, they did not get the relief which, I think, their special circumstances would demand. I would appeal to the Minister now to look into those cases again. I should be very happy to send a statement to the Minister in this connection. I need not bother the House by reading a long statement now, but I should be very happy to send it to the Minister if he would kindly promise to consider it at his leisure.

Another matter to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention is the question of housing for farmers or smallholders. It is a very important matter, and I think it should keep pace with the ordinary grants under the Housing Acts. That is a matter of which I am anxious the Minister should take special cognisance. There is very little good in giving land to men who have not even the necessary capital or the necessary influence to work it, and I submit that the sub-letting of land is not what anybody introducing a Land Bill in this House would contemplate as an equitable means of providing a man with an income. I think that it is only men that are able to farm those lands who should be given them. Of course, I cannot speak with authority and I do not intend to make any statement of which I am not perfectly sure, but there is no doubt that men are getting land who, by no stretch of the imagination, could have the necessary capital or influence or the experience necessary for farming. That is a thing which should be looked into. I am of the opinion that it is a pure waste of public money to acquire these lands, put them under a very high annuity—because the annuities are more than the average—put them into the occupation of men who cannot work them, and leaving these men to be dealt with by the machinery of the Land Commission on some future occasion if they are not able to pay.

I do not know, Sir, whether the Forestry Vote is to be discussed now. Previous members, including Deputy Davin, have discussed it.

If the House desires to take both Votes together, the Chair has no objection, but I understand that that is not desired.

Well, it was discussed here, I understand.

The Deputy will have an opportunity of raising the matter when forestry comes to be discussed.

Very well, Sir, I shall take the matter up on the next Vote.

I should like to draw the attention of the House to two very interesting little items which open the details of this Vote. Item No. 1 is the Minister's salary, £1,700; allowance to Private Secretary, £50; Parliamentary Secretary, £1,200; and allowance to Private Secretary to the Parliamentary Secretary, £50. Now, I often wonder how on earth the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary fill up the long weary days on which they have no work on God's earth to do. The work of the Land Commission depends on the acquisition of lands—the acquisition and the division of lands and the improvement of estates. That is the entire work of the Land Commission. There is nothing else to be done and, with those matters, as the Minister is very fond of telling the House, he has nothing to do. When attacks are made on the way in which the Land Commission do their work, as Deputy Davin attacked the Department this afternoon, we know the Minister will get up here and give us the sterotyped reply. He will get up here and say, as he has often said before: "Oh, blame those bad boys, the officials; but do not say any hard word about poor little me, because poor little me has nothing on earth to do with land division.". And why, in order to assist the Minister in doing nothing, he must have a Parliamentary Secretary to hold his hand, I am completely at a loss to know. I wonder if the Minister, breaking official secrets, would just give us a little idea of what his day's life is like when he gets into the Land Commission in the morning and how the division of nothing to do is made between himself and his Parliamentary Secretary. I presume, and I think the Minister has certainly left the House under this impression, that he does not interfere at all; he does not even endeavour to influence the officials of the Land Commission in the acquisition or distribution of land or the general carrying out of their statutory duties. Of course, it would be grossly improper if the Minister were to do anything of the kind, and I presume that the Minister does not do anything of the kind.

Deputy Gorry dealt with rather an interesting point, which was referred to by Deputy Davin, concerning Deputy Gorry's constituency. It did appear to me, and this is a matter which I am going to develop in a moment, that Deputy Gorry came as very near to a plea of guilty as a person could. What does Deputy Gorry say? He says: "Oh, that is true, I recommend people for land to the Land Commission officials, but the Land Commission officials have the absolute power to turn it down." Of course they have. But is it not obvious from the way Deputy Gorry put that to the House that the feeling behind Deputy Gorry, the feeling behind a great number of other Fianna Fáil Deputies, and the feeling behind a great number of secretaries of Fianna Fáil clubs and members of the committees of Fianna Fáil clubs is that it is a very shocking thing if the Land Commission turns down their recommendations?

I wonder would Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney be astonished if I could produce from my home letters from supporters of his own Party in regard to land? And I should like him to know that I do not ask to draw them away from their political affiliations, their particular political camp. I simply recommend them because, when a farm is being divided, when an estate is being split up, no matter what political camp a man belongs to, if he cannot get a holding then he cannot get it afterwards. I am not concerned with Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney's attempt to make political capital out of what I said. If I spoke openly and frankly, I am quite satisfied the people of my constituency will appreciate it.

I am glad that personal explanation was made by the Deputy, because the personal explanation immerses the Deputy in the soup very much deeper than before he made it. He says that followers of Fine Gael come to him in order that they may get their share of land that is being broken up.

That is so.

What does that mean? That means that there is an absolute belief amongst the people of the neighbourhood that unless you go to Deputy Gorry, or some other Fianna Fáil Deputy, you have no chance of getting a piece of land. Do not think that any person who is a Fine Gael follower and who does not support Deputy Gorry goes to Deputy Gorry out of love of him. He goes to Deputy Gorry for this reason only, that he is satisfied that there is a little Tammany Hall there and unless he gets a little Tammany Hall assistance he will get no share of the land. Is that not what we are complaining about, and is that not the thing that Deputy Gorry is making as clear as daylight to the House?

Not at all.

I am coming on to that matter, because it is a very grave and serious matter. The Land Commission officials have got their duties to perform, and very often they have difficult duties to perform. The Land Commission officials are being very much hampered indeed by political pressure, pressure by Fianna Fáil clubs, in carrying out their duties. And it does not always stop with influence. It goes beyond influence. It comes down to physical force at times. I will take two examples, and I am sure they are both very familiar to the Minister. The first example took place on the Sligo estate at Hollymount, County Mayo. The Land Commission start a scheme for the breaking up of a particular farm and its division amongst the neighbouring tenants. It brings in a certain number of labourers to that farm to carry out the divisions that the inspectors have decided must be made. What happens? Immediately Fianna Fáil clubs are up literally in arms. They come upon the scene and, by physical force, drive away the workmen engaged on the work of division. There is a stoppage for some time and then there is a complete climb down by the Land Commission officials, a complete give-in. That is the Sligo estate. What is the result of that? Immediately it becomes known all round Mayo that all you have to do is to face the Land Commission officials, have enough row and they will have to give in, there will be political support behind the persons who are intimidating them against doing their work and the Land Commission officials will have to give in. This must be very familiar to the Minister, because it is a matter which has had a great deal of circulation in the papers recently.

The Curran farm near Ballyhaunis, County Mayo, became the scene of a very violent agitation. What is the reason? You give in on the Sligo estate and immediately you are encouraging the tenants around every other estate, who have the necessary political support behind them, to say: "We are going to have this farm distributed as we want and not as the Land Commission wants." The result of the one give-in has been the very serious rioting which took place on that farm, and which is still taking place upon that farm. Of course, the Minister will say that he cannot help it; he cannot give them backbone and that he has nothing at all to do with these matters, but I hope that the Minister will convey to the Land Commission officials, at any rate, what I believe is the view of this side of the House, and I hope is the view of every Deputy in the House, and that is that the Land Commission officials must never under any circumstances give way to threats of intimidation, because if it is the strongest party that is going to get the land, then there is going to be a very bad distribution of land in this country.

After all, it is very much on the same principle, it seems to me, as the principle of Italy grabbing Abyssinia, a mere question of might being right. If it is going to come down to this, that the Land Commission officials are going to be terrorised into making the distribution of land by members of Fianna Fáil clubs, backed by Fianna Fáil political influence, then the land of this country is going to be very badly divided indeed. That is a very grave and very serious matter. I have mentioned specific cases from my constituency. I have heard Deputy Davin mention specific cases and there is exactly the same complaint from his constituency and I believe the same thing is probably happening in other constituencies. If the Land Commission is going to carry out its work, it must carry it out perfectly undeterred by any pressure brought upon it. The Land Commission may receive recommendations and will always receive recommendations from Deputies of this House. I agree with Deputy Gorry in that, but the recommendation of a Deputy should simply mean that he thinks a person is suitable for land, but does not know whether there are any more suitable or more needy applicants in the neighbourhood. No Deputy's influence should be strong enough to get land for one person, when a more deserving case does not get land.

The Land Commission, of course, have got a difficult job and I am afraid it is becoming more difficult. There is greater local agitation than there used to be and the Land Commission must consider two things. Very often, when they take a farm, they have to consider the needs of the neighbourhood in which the farm is situated. There may be no congestion at all in that neighbourhood and it may be that the proper carrying out of their duties is to give no land to anybody in the neighbourhood at all and that their real duty is to bring people ten or 15 miles away from real congestion. That is a difficult thing for them to do, and if they start giving in to local agitation, the result will be that holdings of substantial size will be increased and that real congestion will be left untouched. Though the Minister may make his time-honoured excuse that he has nothing to do with the distribution of land now, I do hope that he will convey to the Land Commission officials—because that is the only way by which we can make our voices heard by those officials—the view of this side of the House, and, I hope, of the entire House, that they must not yield either to fear or favour in the distribution of land.

Deputy Roddy dealt with a question which I think is of very considerable importance—the reclamation of land. There is a tremendous amount of land in this country which can be reclaimed. I know that the Land Commission some years ago did start a scheme— inaugurated, as a matter of fact, by Deputy Roddy himself—by which a sum of £5 an acre, or thereabouts, is being allocated to each person who reclaims land which is reclaimable on his own holding. I am anxious that the Minister should give us some idea of how far that is being acted upon and how many hundreds or thousands of acres have been reclaimed during the past year under that scheme. It applies not alone, as Deputy Davin said, to bog land, but to every class of land which is reclaimable. The Minister may not have accurate particulars about it, but if he has not, possibly he would give us some estimate.

Mr. Boland

That is done mainly by the Department of Agriculture. The Land Commission has been engaged only on the bogs schemes.

I do not know what the Minister calls bog land, but I know that the Land Commission are giving grants to places that are right on the mountainside, high above any bog.

Mr. Boland

That is Agriculture's province.

The Minister may be right in theory, but I wonder where he draws the line between bog and non-bog areas. However, will the Minister give us some information as to how many acres of bog have been reclaimed under these schemes and if any large area has been tackled, as distinct from the giving of sums of money to men for the reclamation of part of their own holdings?

I have already submitted detailed suggestions in regard to reclamation schemes as they could be operated in our county, especially in view of the fact that, unlike the districts for which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, Deputy Davin and other Deputies from counties in which there is land to distribute, speak, our people in Kerry have no large estates that could be dealt with under schemes of division. One of the great schemes— in fact, the only scheme, in my opinion —that would be of real assistance to the poor, congested areas in counties like Kerry would be a reclamation scheme, and what I should like to see brought about is the development by the Land Commission of areas at regular intervals and centres somewhat on the lines of minor relief works at present, that is, a reclamation scheme embracing an area of anything from 50 to 300 acres, with a view to the eventual development of the county, or the greater part of it, over a period of years. I have already submitted a scheme outlining the approximate cost of such a reclamation scheme. I think it is very well worth consideration. I know the Minister and his Department will consider it, and I think they should consider it favourably.

The next important matter facing us at this moment is this question of housing. In our county we are, unfortunately, faced with an organised system in the nature of a housing ring. I suggested to the Minister and his Department that a depot should be established. This suggestion contains nothing new because years ago, when the Congested Districts Board operated in our county, they established this depôt or centre. This centre was utilised for the assembling of building materials—doors, windows and so on. In other words, a regular workshop was established in these centres. The particular depôt to which I refer is still in the possession of the Land Commission. They own this depôt since they took over from the Congested Districts Board. I appeal to the Minister and his Department to re-open that centre with a view to providing reasonably cheap building material for the tenants who are willing and anxious to build, people who have applied for housing grants in the different districts. It will become imperative on the Land Commission to do something like that because, from the information at my disposal, it appears that the people in the building trade have formed a sort of combine whereby their prices are similar. They will not tender in any area supposed to be supplied by one of their colleagues. The opening up of such a depôt would be a most useful step at the moment in this matter of housing and we could be getting down to business. In my previous statement to the Land Commission I pointed out that this system will be the means of reducing costs by at least £15 per house. That indeed would be a great benefit. It will be both a saving to the tenants and to the State. I hope that something will be done about it.

One other factor in regard to housing in our county is in connection with the difficulty of farmers to obtain grants through utility societies or through the Local Government Department. These people find it very difficult to obtain loans. I would ask the Minister and his Department to see if it is possible to devise some system of giving loans to farmers for housing purposes. With the farmer's holding as security it should not be difficult to make an arrangement to provide these loans on reasonable terms. I know that very large numbers of farmers have tried to get the Land Commission to come to their assistance in that matter.

I am sorry to say that Land Commission activities in our county have been rather slow. The Land Commission during the last four or five years have more or less forgotten our county. Time and again I have raised this matter here. When one compares the work done by the Land Commission in our county with its activities in other counties of similar valuation and population, it will be seen that our county has been left completely behind. I hope that in future the Land Commission will see to it that what we have lost in regard to obtaining grants and benefits such as other counties have obtained, will be made up in the future by reclamation schemes. We always find it very hard to get down to grips with the Land Commission. Their system, in my opinion, is very unwieldy. If one compares how the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Deputy Hugo Flinn) deals with the work in his Department, with the Land Commission system the comparison is very striking. He gets properly down to business; he is in direct contact with the people in every county. An application is sent from our county to the Board of Works and an inspector appears in the county within a week or two to deal with the matter. Take an application to the Land Commission. Perhaps it will not reach headquarters before three months. The Land Commission office in Tralee sends it to Cork, the divisional office. From the divisional office it is sent here to the secretary of the Department of Lands. He gets into touch with the application sometimes four or probably six months after it is made. In my opinion that is a system which should be changed and the Land Commission should get into direct contact with the people. The Land Commission was instituted at a time when such procedure might have been considered unnecessary. At that time the Land Commission was considered as something sacred and above the people. In these modern days, we must endeavour to get the Land Commission to adapt their system to the requirements of the people and to make it possible for schemes to be put in operation at the earliest possible date. I realise and so does every Deputy here, I suppose, that it is difficult to attend to every grievance in every county. There is room for adjustments. I am glad to say that every time we have approached the Land Commission at headquarters they have done everything possible for us. But they are tied up with the system that will not lend itself to modern requirements or to the people's demands as they arise from day to day.

I have just a few words to say with regard to migrants. The Land Commission over a period of ten or 15 years have been arranging for taking migrants from our county and giving them land elsewhere. They have time and again concentrated on one end of the county; that is the Dingle peninsula. I am not saying that they have not done right. But why should they concentrate on the same area all the time? We have eligible applicants from the southern part of the county— from Ballinskelligs, an Irish-speaking district and a very poor district. I would urge if any migrants are to be taken from Kerry in future that the Minister might consider applicants from the southern area. We appreciate all that the Minister has done for us and the efforts of the Department to meet us, but we would like if the Minister would look into the matters to which I have drawn attention. That is all I wish to say at the moment.

I have been present in the House since the inception of the debate on this Vote. One aspect of the question that has been introduced and dealt with during the debate is the question of politics or the introduction of politics into the matter of land division. I recognise as everyone in this country must recognise that the Land Commission as a Department is not only a very large and a very important one but that also it must of necessity be a very overworked Department. For a number of years past, during which I have been earning my living by going round the country as a travelling barrister, I have met from time to time, in the sitting-rooms of various hotels which I have visited, numerous officials from the Land Commission who have been engaged in these areas on the division of land. I had an opportunity of talking with them, round the fireside in the evenings, and I should like to pay my tribute to these public officials who are doing their best under somewhat difficult circumstances to divide land amongst people who require it. I can say from what I have learned that it is of the greatest necessity to see that the division of land is carried out without political interference from anyone, no matter to what Party he belongs. That is in the interests of the whole community.

Under the present system of land division, land ought to be allotted to people who are going to work it and produce wealth from it for the benefit of all the citizens of the country. No Deputy in this House, I think, will quarrel with that principle. There are cases, and we all know such cases, where land has been divided, and the next thing we hear about it, perhaps after the fences have been erected and a house built, is that it has been let for the season to some adjoining farmer. The officials of the Land Commission are doing their best from their knowledge and their experience to obtain the best type of purchasing tenants for the lands that are being divided. I say that, in carrying out that great work on behalf of the community as a whole, they should be allowed to do so without political interference, no matter whence it comes. That is a matter of public importance and public interest. We do not all live in balloons. We do not all go round blindfolded. We all know, without having to quote particular instances, that there is political interference in the division of land. We have only to take down the files of newspapers and see the resolutions passed at meetings of local clubs. What do you see? That Mr. So-and-so occupied the chair, that a motion was proposed by So-and-so and seconded by someone else, that immediate representations should be made to the Government for the division of this or that farm.

A Deputy

There is nothing wrong in that.

That is what takes place. You read it in the papers. I do not quarrel at all with a resolution coming from any representative local body suggesting that representations should be made to the Government for the division of certain lands in particular districts or for expediting the division of certain lands in the district if it is in the interests of the community. What I do quarrel with is that this should be regarded as a matter of framing a political resolution, and that people who attend these meetings should, inferentially, hold themselves forth as agents for the distribution of these lands, because that is what it amounts to. I should like to see a healthy public spirit growing up in this country, and that every individual, and every Deputy, should look upon the division of land as a matter of public concern to be administered by an efficient, honest and capable public service. It is the duty of everyone not to interfere. I go further than Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney when he agreed with Deputy Corry that it would be quite right to recommend such-and-such an individual as a proper tenant for a holding. If we are going to stamp out political interference in the division of land in this country, we should not hold ourselves forth as persons who can go to the Land Commission to recommend people for land.

I see Deputy Corry laughing. I am not in this House to make debating points. I am not here to make a speech that will be reproduced afterwards in the local papers. I am in this House as an ordinary representative to do my little bit to raise the tone of public life where it requires raising. It may be a laughing matter to some Deputies, and the Minister later on may get up on behalf of this Party and deny the soft impeachment, or the direct impeachment, that politics does influence in any way the division of land in this country. Why should Deputies opposite laugh? Why should Deputy Corry laugh at my suggestion that we ought to abandon our right, because apparently it is looked upon as a right, to go to Merrion Street and say, "I recommend So-and-so for this or that bit of land"? That is the only way to approach the matter, because it is a question of one Government to-day and another to-morrow. That is the only way you will be able to divide land without the introduction of politics or bringing political influence to bear upon it. So much for the question of politics in the division of land.

One other matter which I should like to deal with before I sit down is the question raised by Deputy Brasier with regard to certain members of the community who became tenants of their land under the Act of 1919, the Soldiers and Sailors Act. There are a considerable number of these people in different parts of the country, and they purchased their lands at a time when the price was very high. I should like the Minister to investigate the point that has been raised by Deputy Brasier. I saw two Deputies opposite laugh just now when I made some reference to these ex-servicemen. There are British ex-servicemen on the opposite benches. I am a British ex-serviceman myself, and many a good vote which went Fianna Fáil at the last three or four elections came from British ex-servicemen. Whenever I mention British ex-servicemen in this House, and whenever it meets with a laugh from the other side, I shall reply in the same manner as I am now replying to that laugh. There were other servants of the British Government besides British ex-servicemen. Their descendants are in this House. I am not going to allow any suggestion to be made about Irish-British ex-servicemen, who have equal rights under our Constitution and who form about 40,000 of our population. I am not going to allow such a remark to be laughed at in this Assembly by members of the Government Party. I will speak of the grievances of every Party if I consider they have grievances. I always approach every topic in a fair-minded fashion. I am a new arrival in this House.

And a damn silly one, too.

If the Deputy would raise his voice I might hear him.

What I said was that you were a damn silly one, too.

I doubt if that remark is worthy of a reply.

The Deputy should ignore the disorderly interjection.

I am not going to introduce anything controversial into the debate. I only intervened when I considered it to be my duty to do so in the interests of the people who sent me here, a great number of whom, as Deputies from Wexford know, are British ex-servicemen. I do not care who or what a man is when he is a citizen of this State. If he has a grievance he is entitled to be listened to by every Party, and particularly by a Party that at the last three elections received a great deal of support from individual members of those who at one time formed part of the Expeditionary Force to France.

I wish to deal with the land question, as it has become a burning question in my constituency. I notice that the debate has all centred around the question of land division, and, coming from a county with ranches, I feel that it is my duty to intervene. Is the Minister satisfied that land division in Meath is going on satisfactorily? I must certainly congratulate the Minister on the speed with which he is dividing the land, but I am sorry to say that I cannot compliment him on the manner in which it is being divided. Everyone knows that Meath was once a county of large ranches. The day has come when these ranches are being divided amongst the plain people. Is the Minister satisfied that a holding of 22 or 25 statute acres in County Meath is an economic farm? I would be glad if that were the case, but, as one who was born and reared in the county, I say that that amount of land is not an economic farm. A man with 22 statute acres of land in Meath, who has no other way of living, will, in my opinion, be a pauper in a short time. I think the Minister has begun to realise that, as within the last six months I notice that the acreage has been raised to about 28 statute acres. I am satisfied that even that increase is of very little use, and I suggest that the only economic farm in Meath would be one of at least 30 Irish acres. On such a farm a man could knock out a fair existence and rear a family, but with a smaller acreage he would have to go out and look for work on the roads.

In dividing up the land I ask the Minister to be very careful, because Meath is one of the most important counties in Ireland from the point of view of the live-stock trade. Many counties in the South and West will find themselves in a deplorable plight in the next five or six years if all the ranching lands in Meath are divided into small uneconomic holdings. The Minister comes from the West of Ireland, and I ask him to realise what the position of the great fairs at Ballinasloe, Roscommon, Tuam and other places would be but for the support they receive from wealthy men in Meath who buy store cattle and store sheep. The land of Meath will finish off the highest quality live stock. Perhaps it is the only land in Europe that can finish off live stock properly without the assistance of artificial feeding. That is the reason I ask the Minister to be more careful about dividing ranches. I know that there are redundant ranches in Meath that should be divided. Many of them that, I am sorry to say, are derelict have not been looked at by the Commissioners. We have embarked on a policy of taking over some of the finest ranches, places that have been well worked, and dividing them into small patches, with hedges and new roads. That should not take place. Estates have been taken over at Gibbstown and Allenstown. These were, perhaps, two of the best worked farms in Europe, and were owned by two of the finest types of men in the country. They gave constant employment and spent their money working their estates to the best of their ability. They also built houses for workmen and for herds and gave them the grass of cows and horses, and in their old age provided them with firewood and in some cases with pensions. The Land Commission stepped in there and divided these ranches in what I consider to be a ridiculous manner. While the land of County Meath is of the highest quality, it is useless for small holdings. It is only fit for fattening cattle, and is of very little use for tillage or anything else. Cattle or live stock cannot be finished on small farms. They must have a run and a change every three or four weeks.

The land in Meath is now being divided and is being given to colonists from the West of Ireland. Perhaps it is the policy of the Government to see if they can relieve congestion in the West in that way. If they want to bring that type of people to Meath from the West they should select land that would be suitable for them, and that would be suitable for tillage in a small way. Land of second or third-rate quality, which would be really suitable for small farms, might be got near the bogs. To divide other land amongst such people would leave them in beggary. The Minister can see what took place at Rathcarn; some men made a success of that land because they had other means, but two or three families left after six or eight months, notwithstanding the fact that they got horses, cows, sows, hens and ducks, ploughs, bags of flour and 30/- a week for over two years. If these people could not make good under such circumstances, where would they make good? The sons and daughters of some of these new colonists have gone to England to try and earn a living, that they could not get out of the land in Meath. The sons of others have tried to get work on the roads, while some have gone to the employment exchanges. I think the Minister should realise that the time has come to stop setting up these new colonies. These people should be left where they would have eight or ten acres of land, to see if they could make good, and if they did, perhaps other schemes could then be embarked on. Apart from that, I want him to realise that there are congested districts in North Meath and in South Meath as big as any congested districts in the West of Ireland. I ask him to deal with the Meath people first when dividing land, and to go a little more slowly with land division in the county. I do not think the best type of people were recruited for land in Meath.

I agree that landless men have a fair claim to land, but I hold that uneconomic holders have first claim. In a great many cases uneconomic holders with large families were passed over, while men who never had a penny and, in some cases, never did a day's work, got economic farms, new houses and new out-offices. After two or three years they set the land on the 11 months' system, or got constant work on the roads at the expense of the ratepayers. I do not think that is fair. I would ask the Minister to be more careful as regards the type of people that, in future, he selects for the County Meath. We have heard a lot about the political division of land to-night. I am keenly interested in the division of land in the County Meath, and I am of the opinion that it is going on as satisfactorily as the Land Commission can do it. I know that local secretaries and local cumainn are utilising all the political pull that they can command, but I know also that the Land Commission is paying very little heed to them, and that there are as many represented on this side of the House as on the other side getting land. I thank the Minister and the Land Commission for acting in a fair and impartial manner. I know that there are certain cases where the political pull has been effective, but I suppose that always will be and always was.

In connection with cottage holders, I am not satisfied that they are being dealt with in a fair way. When a big ranch is being divided, I think that the cottagers living in the immediate vicinity of it should get at least five acres. It is the only opportunity they will ever have of getting five acres which they need for the purpose of keeping a cow and of being able to raise a few cocks of hay. I would ask the Minister to give that matter his special attention. If he does it will help to do away with many grievances. You sometimes find that when a ranch is divided one cottager, who may be lucky or who may be able to exercise a pull of some kind or another, gets the five acres, but that three or four other men similarly situated, and with an equal claim to a share of the land, are left out and get nothing. I think that all cottagers living in the vicinity of a big ranch should be treated equally and given at least five acres.

There are other types of men who are completely overlooked in the County Meath, and these are the sons of small farmers with uneconomic holdings. Not one in a thousand of them gets a farm of land when land is being divided. The land goes to those who have nothing or to those who have a pull of some kind or another. If the son of one of those small farmers looks for land when an estate is being divided his father is asked: "What do you want land for; have you not £100 in the bank, and why do you not go and buy land?" There is no small farmer in the County Meath, men with five and ten acres of land, who is able to buy land and give it to his sons. These people are as much entitled to a share of land when it is being divided as the landless men and others who are getting holdings. Most of them have large families, some of them 10, 12 and 16 children. They may have six or seven big sons, and if they are not able to get some land there is nothing left for them except to emigrate to England or America. I hold that they are a class of people who are entitled to fair consideration in the division of land.

The Minister should give special consideration to the position in Meath at the present moment. There are a number of ranches there that, I think, could be clipped a bit—ranches of 400, 500 or 600 acres that are not giving much employment and are not being worked as they should be. I think the Minister might clip 200 or 300 acres off them. While I say that, I ask him not to wipe out all the ranch land in Meath. If he does he will leave it one of the most impoverished counties in Ireland. The people in that county, as the Minister knows, rely mainly for a living on exporting finished cattle to England and Scotland. From that point of view Meath is an important county. If the land there were divided up into small patches its export trade in finished live stock would cease immediately, and the cattle of this country would have to be sent to Scotland and England in an unfinished state. That would result in a huge loss of money to the country, because the farmers in Scotland and England, who would then finish the cattle, would reap all the value that accrues to the County Meath farmers at present. As Deputies know, cattle are sent from the other counties to Meath to be finished before they are exported. The land of Meath is suitable for finishing cattle, and the result is that the country is able to get full value for its cattle exports. We have no factories in Meath. We have absolutely nothing but the land. Therefore, if it is divided up into small patches the Government will have to do something in the way of providing employment for the people by setting up factories there.

I would also ask the Minister to do something for the sons of evicted tenants in the County Meath. There is one glaring case that I would like to bring to his notice. It is that of a man who got a small uneconomic wretched patch of land which was refused by everybody else in the area. He is the last descendant of one of the families evicted from the Rathcore estate over half a century ago. They were almost the last evictions that took place in the country. He is trying to live on ten acres of rushy, swampy land. There is no house on it, and indeed there would be no use in building one for him because he could not live in it. The place is a swamp. I would ask the Minister to do something for him. He can produce all his credentials to show that he has a good claim to be treated as the son of an evicted tenant. He is in the unhappy position of seeing other people come in and get possession of the land from which his people were evicted. That has happened in the last few years. He is left in possession of a swampy corner of land himself, that is of no use to him. I would appeal to the Minister, who is a fair-minded man, to do justice to this son of an evicted tenant and give him a farm that will be in keeping with the past traditions of his family. At the moment there are seven farms about to be divided up and on which houses are to be built. I would ask the Minister to consider this man as a suitable person for one of those houses.

We do not want any more migrant colonies in the County Meath, not until the demands of the people of the county are satisfied. We have plenty of congested districts in the county. The claims of the people living in them should have first consideration. My colleague, Deputy Esmonde, spoke about the British ex-Servicemen. I am an Irish ex-Serviceman of the old I.R.A. I do not think that enough has been done for us. If we are going to have colonies in Meath, then I think the men of the old I.R.A. who fought and suffered for their country should get consideration. Many of them are prosecuting their claims for pensions to-day and are not too sure that they are going to get them, but at least they ought to be able to get a patch of land in their native country. I would ask all sides of the House to agree that where land is being divided the old I.R.A. should get preference after the demands of the uneconomic holders have been satisfied. In my opinion, the old I.R.A. men in the County Meath are not getting consideration. I know every one of them, and if we have land to divide, then I think they should get a preference over people coming from other counties. If they succeed in getting a small pension as well, it will be of help to them in working their little farms.

I ask the Minister to give them first consideration in County Meath, because they are not getting it; they are getting the same treatment as anybody else. They are told that they have no money. How could they have money when they sacrificed the best years of their lives fighting for their country and lying in dungeons in England? Even if they have not a penny, an Irish Government should see that they get a few pounds and are placed on farms. They are the cream of the country and they will be law-abiding, honourable citizens who will make good. They want prior consideration and they are entitled to demand it. I am glad to say that, in a few months or in a year's time, they will demand that consideration and demand it in a strong way, because they have justice behind their claim. Some Government will one day do them justice or out they will go.

After the invitation of the representative of Royal Meath to the Minister to go slowly, I think the representative of democratic Clare should ask him to go more quickly. For us, in Clare, the Minister is not going as quickly as we should like. There is not enough land-distribution in the county, although there is a good deal of land to be divided. I know of no sufficient reason why the land of that county—suitable land— should not be divided. There are suitable applicants available who know how to till the land and are prepared to till it. Some of it is good tillage land. As other Deputies know, a good deal of the land in North Clare might be put into commission and not be left to the growing of grass and weeds. I cannot understand why, notwithstanding the pressure I, and I am sure other Deputies, have brought to bear on the Land Commission, that land has not been divided. If there is a reason, I hope the Minister will tell us when he comes to reply why thousands of acres of good land are left idle while scores of people—I put it no higher—are emigrating to England. There are in these districts young boys and girls who could settle on that land and make happy, comfortable homesteads there, while they would be adding to the wealth of the nation by producing crops. I ask the Minister to give that matter his best attention and see if something can be done to expedite the distribution of land there.

In the distribution of land—I am not going to make any charges against the Land Commission—I do not think cottiers are getting their full share of consideration. Possibly it is a statutory obligation that uneconomic landholders should get the preference but there is no reason why better provision should not be made for cottiers who are living on the borders of estates which are being divided. I do not want to create a fresh crop of uneconomic holders by giving them three or four acres each. That would only create another problem in four or five years time but I think cottiers might get a little more consideration than they are getting in my county.

I object to the rate of wages being paid by the Land Commission in the development of these estates. It is an impossible wage on which to live, as the Minister knows. The rate of wages in some cases in my county—I say this deliberately—is less than the farmers are paying to their men, when you take into account the perquisites attached to the job of farm labourer. No Government Department should ask these men to develop these estates on these wages. Certain Government Departments have a very bad character in that respect, and I should not like to see the present Minister in charge of a Department which would have a reputation for paying low and bad wages. He should take this matter up unless he is tied hand and foot by some outside body which regulates the rates of wage to be paid by the Department. If that is the case he should take the House into his confidence.

As regards employment on these estates, men living in cottages within a mile or half a mile of the estate— men with families of grown-up boys— are being left idle while people with land are being given employment in making fences, roads, drainage and whatever else requires to be done when the estate is being divided. It is heart-breaking for a cottier who lives within a mile or half a mile of an estate, and who is not getting any portion of it, to be deprived of employment when it is being divided. He must stand idly by and see the farmer with a valuation of £8 or £10, who is getting some of the land, getting also some of the employment in the development of the estate. That is not playing the game with the unemployed cottier, and I ask the Minister to look into the matter.

There is some slowness about the vesting of land that I cannot understand. The Minister promised last year that this matter would be expedited. So far, it does not seem to have been expedited very much, and, in consonance with the views of other Deputies, I suggest that the Minister should give some attention to that matter in the coming year. There is some land in Clare which has not not been brought under the provisions of the Land Acts and which does not get the benefit of land legislation. That is a serious grievance on the part of some tenants. Their annuities have not been divided. They are still paying rent. There are not many of these people, but that makes the grievances all the greater. I suggest that the Minister should see that these people get the benefit of land legislation, and I suggest also that he expedite the vesting of land. These are the only points I wish to make, because I assume that we shall be able to discuss the forestry schemes when the Afforestation Vote comes before us.

Most of the speakers on this Vote referred to matters which concerned constituencies. There are in the House members who do not represent rural constituencies but who do represent people who are called upon to pay a considerable portion of this £1,750,000 which we are asked to vote. While the Minister dealt with each item separately, he did not give the House any information as to what the policy of the Land Commission was or what they had done during the year other than paying about £350,000 in wages. He gave us no figures showing what the taxpayer has to pay in respect of each holding, nor did he tell us how the Land Commission were operating in order to give effect to their policy. On looking up the Estimate, I find that the number of officials employed by the Department—from the Minister down to the office-cleaner—has increased since 1931 by about 360. The extra cost to the State of these officials was close on £100,000. The Minister tells us he is spending £350,000 in wages, and, if it is costing £100,000 to do that, it is a very expensive proposition.

I should like to know what the opinion of the Land Commission is regarding an uneconomic holding. They are, I take it, supplying people who are looking for land with economic holdings. Speaking as a representative of a municipal area, I should like to know what a person is charged for house, out-offices and land in the country and to have that compared with the rent that a worker in an urban district is charged for his house. It is not that we begrudge these people in the rural areas whatever advantages they can get, but we do say that if one man gets a house and land for 4/- or 5/- a week and employment during the entire year, it is a little bit hard that his city brother has to pay anything from 7/- to 12/- a week in rent, and has not got constant employment to enable him to pay that rent.

I should like the Minister to tell us what this experiment in the County Meath cost, whether it is a fact that in connection with each holding there something like £900 and over had to be paid by the taxpayers; whether he thinks that is a practical proposition; whether it is merely an experiment or a gesture; whether it is intended to pursue that policy; or if he thinks the State is sufficiently strong financially to continue that policy and to give people from different parts of the country holdings either in County Meath or elsewhere at that price.

I should also like to know from the Minister what has been the experience of the Land Commission of the people who have got holdings or allotments during the last six or seven years; whether they have been carefully worked; and whether the same attention has been paid to them as in connection with the acquisition of land from people. In that connection I should like information as to whether there is any other case like that referred to in the House some three or four months ago. I refer to the case of a lady in County Meath whose husband paid £1,600 for a farm of 205 acres which was subject to a rent of £150 a year under a fee farm grant, I think. She committed the indiscretion of asking the Land Commission to bring her holding under the Land Acts. The Land Commission had the land inspected, and came to the conclusion that it was not being worked in a husband-like manner and then acquired it. This happened during a period when farmers generally, even according to Ministers, were finding it hard to pay their way. This lady was no exception to the rule. In her case there were many claims against the holding, liabilities that she incurred through having inherited it from her husband. Her husband died in 1925, and a Department of State fixed the value of her interest in that holding at £3,500, and she paid probate duty on that sum. She had put it up for auction and refused a bid of £3,000. The fact that she refused it, I suppose, convinced the revenue authorities that the holding was worth £3,500, upon which she paid probate duty. The Land Commission acquired the property, and the price that they fixed for the holding was £2,600, of which the landlord got £2,200, plus whatever arrears of rent had accumulated since the economic war started. Costs and rates absorbed whatever was left of the £400, with the exception of a solitary £5 note, which was unallocated up to November or December last.

I should like the Minister to tell the House if he considers that that was a fair proposition and if there is any difference between the conduct of the Land Commission in connection with that case and that of any rack-renting landlord in this country, either in the remote or immediate past. I should like to know whether he intends to do anything in connection with that case. A £5 note for a farm for which £3,000 was refused just 12 years ago—if that be the value of the Government's contribution to agricultural economy in this country, it is perhaps the most telling that could possibly be described. I have noticed from the observations of people supporting the Minister, if not from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister, that if they do not get land at this cheap price it could not be divided. It is very easy to make divisions of property if you seize it from somebody else and it costs you nothing. Cases of that sort shake the confidence not only of the people who hold land, but of people who work on it. In the case of a widow, particularly during those last few difficult years; I think it would be impossible to find a much worse case than that in the history of the country.

I ask the Minister to tell the House what his particular contribution is towards the administration of this Department. I find that he and his Parliamentary Secretary are entered on the list of expenses here at a sum of something like £3,000. If the administration of the Department is exclusively in the hands of Commissioners, if the Minister cannot interfere in connection with their work, what is the necessity for a Minister, plus a Parliamentary Secretary, particularly if the House is not going to get a review or survey of the work done during the last 12 months, and no information as to the policy of the Land Commission in connection with its work? While the area of land that can be acquired is annually decreasing, the costs of administration in connection with its seizure and division are going up. I am quite sure from all we have seen and heard from the Minister that he will be able to give an excellent explanation as regards that.

There is just one other matter that might be referred to, and that is the claim made on the introduction of the 1933 Land Act, that by short-circuiting the courts and giving power to the sheriff to serve notice on land annuitants to pay up, the costs of the land annuitants would be decreased. If the information we have had recently is correct, and I presume it is, the new procedure seems to cost something like four or five times the amount that the old procedure cost. Costs in connection with the collection of annuities in the years 1931-2 and 1932-3 were something like £4,000, and in the last year under the new system they were something like £19,000. If these figures are not correct, perhaps the Minister will correct them. In any case, no matter what has happened, the Minister will admit at least that after the coming into operation of the 1933 Land Act there were no arrears of annuities. Now, according to a question answered to-day the arrears amount to something like £1,200,000. When we took over the Land Commission from the British there was a sum of approximately £600,000 odd for arrears over a period of 30 years. We have beaten that twice in the last four or five years, even with the halved annuities. If those matters are present to the minds of the Commissioners when they are taking land, certainly it will be valued at a very low price.

In that particular case which I mentioned of the woman who had land down in County Meath, the rental that she had to pay the landlord was £150 a year. That land has been divided. What is the rent which the Land Commission has put upon the various holdings into which that parcel of land was divided? It is something like £60 or £70 a year. Now, in all conscience, is it justice to pay one person £2,200 for that holding, and having done that, and having seized the benefit of it, to charge another person only half that sum? I should like the Minister to address himself to the equity of that particular transaction. The Land Commission in its wisdom or in its justice would not consider it fair to charge the incoming tenants what they made the outgoing tenant pay the landlord. If it is not fair to charge the incoming tenant that amount, why saddle the outgoing tenant with the full value of £150 a year? I should like to know from the Minister, apart altogether from any question of policy, what is going to be done in common justice and in honesty for that particular tenant.

County Meath has received a great deal of attention in the House this evening. A stranger coming in here would imagine that there was no land for division in any county except County Meath. From my own experience when travelling around other parts of Ireland, I find that large ranches are to be found in every county, perhaps with the exception of Kerry and a few of the other congested districts. Those ranches feed cattle. They do not give employment, and they are somewhat similar to the ranches we have in County Meath. I listened to the speech delivered by my colleague, Captain Giles, this evening, and I should say that if that speech had come from a Deputy representing the raisers of small stock in the western counties of this country I would pass no comment upon it, but I certainly wonder that we should in this House hear a speech delivered by a Deputy from Meath requesting the Minister for Lands to take care lest the fat stock trade should be destroyed in County Meath. It appeared that the Deputy was more concerned about the producers who sold their stores at Ballinasloe and other fairs in the West than he was about the unfortunate people in County Meath who for years have been looking across the hedges at those lands, lands that have been unproductive, lands that have not given any employment to the residents in County Meath. "We have only fattening land in Meath!" he said. That is an old cry. That cry goes back to the days when we had the landlords coming along and saying that the land was not fit to be tilled; that it was too rich; that the people should get out and make room for the bullocks; that it was only fit for fattening bullocks to send across to the English market. Well, we can send across baby beef to the English market. We can fatten cattle still on the small farms of Meath. I think any small farmer in County Meath will inform the Deputy that it is possible to fatten cattle on the small farms.

Mr. Kelly

It is still possible to feed them, and by so doing to give some employment on those farms. The Deputy proclaimed here to-night that the policy which should still be pursued in County Meath by the Minister and by the Land Commission is to give the one man and his dog liberty to roam over those farms still. Of course, he said the Meath men should be first for the Meath lands. I agree with him in that, but he said that men were getting land who should not get it. In asking the Minister to go more slowly with the division of land he said that people were getting land who were not entitled to it. We in Meath make no apology to anyone for asking for land for our landless men, because in Meath we have probably a larger percentage of landless men than in any other area. It is only necessary to refer to the manner in which this came about in order to enable the House to see why it is that we have so many landless men, and why we are asking that the Meath lands should be given to the Meath people first. Practically all those people for whom we are pleading to-day are descendants of evicted tenants. In the 'sixties of the last century we had evictions in Meath perhaps unparalleled for cruelty in any part of the country. We have only to refer to the pastoral letters of the Most Reverend Dr. Nulty, late Bishop of Meath, in order to see that that is so. In a pastoral addressed to his flock in 1871 he gave an account of the harrowing scenes he witnessed at the evictions in County Meath, where, he stated, that he saw 700 people turned out on the roadside in one day. Those were everyday scenes in those days. Is it any wonder that we should now have landless men in County Meath? Is it any wonder that we should make a plea for those people? Is it any wonder that we have so many ranches with the bullocks roaming over them? We make no parochial appeal. We make no appeal for the landless men of Meath. We make an appeal in the interests of the country. Those people have carried on a relentless campaign for generations so that the land that was owned by their forefathers might be restored to them. I certainly take pride in standing up for those people.

In doing so, may I refer to the matter of migration? As a policy I think nobody can find fault with taking men from the congested areas and placing them where land is available. In County Meath we have two classes of migration, one internal and the other external. We have small holders giving up their holdings in the congested areas of Meath and being taken to other areas where land is available. This policy has been very successfully carried out during the past year, and I only hope that it will be continued in the future by the Minister.

In connection with the external migration, we have two Gaeltacht colonies; that is, we have migration from the Gaeltacht into two colonies in Meath—one in Rathcarne and another in Gibbstown. I understand that reference was made to both these places this evening. It must be remembered that these migrants have given up their homes in congested areas and that they have been brought to County Meath in order to enable them to make a livelihood for themselves and their families, which they were unable to do in the congested areas. I do wish to say that they have the good will of the people of Meath. We wish them happiness and prosperity in their efforts to make their livelihood amongst us.

In this connection, however, I should like to remind the House that Deputy Roddy, when speaking this evening, advised the Minister to go back to the policy, which Deputy Roddy and his Party adopted when they were in power, of bringing the bigger migrant rather than the smaller migrant into Meath. Well, I beg to differ with Deputy Roddy when he says that that is the correct system, and I would appeal to the Minister not to attempt to bring the bigger type of migrant into County Meath. We had enough of them during the period when Cumann na nGaedheal were in power. We had them brought into Meath and, in several instances, they had given up land in other parts of Ireland that was aptly termed, at the time, as being unfit to feed snipe, and they were given in Meath double the amount of land they had given up. I have known of cases where they received 200 and 300 acres of land, and where no roads were constructed or no houses built. The farms were left there as ranches and will remain there as ranches until the Minister or the Land Commission comes along and distributes that land amongst the people who will work the land according to the methods upon which the Government would like to see the land worked. Of course, Cumann na nGaedheal started the system of migration, but I believe that the Minister's policy of bringing small migrants to places where land is available is really the better policy.

If I might be permitted to attempt to interpret the desires of the local people, I should say their demand is simply that, where land is available in Meath, first preference should be given to the local people—special attention being paid to the landless men who are land workers and who have experience of work on the land— and that no colony of migrants should be taken into an already congested area. I do not think there is anything wrong about that demand. I think it should be considered as quite a sensible demand, and I do not think the Minister has any objection to it since he has stated over and over again that, where land is to be divided, the local people will get first preference in the division of that land. In this connection, Allenstown has been referred to this evening, and it is evidently supposed that migration will take place to Allenstown. Now, Allenstown, in itself, is not a congested townland, but the area around it, around about Bohermeen, is considered to be a congested area, and what the people there state is that they are anxious that no outsiders should be introduced until the local people are provided for first. The residents in that area, at the moment, are displaying a little nervousness as to what will be the out come of the proceedings in connection with the selection of candidates for the various holdings, and what is causing most concern is the matter of the area from which the applicants will be chosen and the type of applicant that will be chosen. Now, in regard to the local area, we hold that the present policy of the Land Commission should be somewhat extended —I mean, the policy of taking applicants from a restricted area—and that there should be some consideration given where, in a congested area nearby, land is being divided to the fact that it is not a good thing to place people in such a position that they would be far from an available labour market or that they should have to look for work in places and occupations of which they had no previous experience. Of course, if there are any holdings left over after providing for the local people, the outsiders will be provided for. If, on the other hand, all the land has to be absorbed by the locals, there will be no question of economy there. Of course, I know that the Minister has stated that all the eligible local applicants will be provided with land, but then it is merely a matter of defining what is meant by "local." I know, at any rate, that the people in the area to which I am referring have a proper team spirit and sense of justice and a wonderful appreciation of fair play, and I believe that the Land Commissioners will find very little difficulty in meeting the legitimate needs of these people. Since, however, the question of migration has got a great deal of publicity, I just want to make my position clear on this matter.

Now, with regard to landless men, I should like to make an appeal for them, and the type of landless men to whom I refer are those who understand agriculture, who understand all kinds of farm work, and who have been brought up on the land. Now, we do not want land for every rural resident in Meath. As a matter of fact, some people would not take land. I have known of instances where the Land Commission would have given land to people if they would accept it, but they refused to take the land because they thought they would be better off carrying on as they had been carrying on, and felt that the land would not be of any use to them. In addition to these people, we have people who only ask for what might be called accommodation plots—plots that would give grass for their cows and for a certain amount of potatoes— just what would meet their small needs; let us say five or six acres. Accordingly, we are not asking for land for every rural resident in Meath. In this connection also it may be argued against landless men that some of them, where they have got farms, have failed to make good. On the other hand, I have known of many cases where they have succeeded. In fact, I can say that 99 per cent. of the landless men who have received holdings have made good, and even if there are a few who, because they have not had their land for a sufficiently long time to enable them to get into their full stride in working the land, I do hope and believe that it is only a matter of giving them a chance, of giving them a little time, until they will be able to make good upon these lands. Of course, there is a type of landless men who have been listening to the false propaganda delivered by the Opposition. They have been told that the tillage policy of the Government was incorrect, that it would ruin any farmer. They were told not to grow wheat, not to till their land, or to do anything that the Government would suggest to them. These people may have been led astray by that propaganda, and, as a result of that propaganda, they may have let their holdings go into grass and may have leased them on the 11 months' system again.

Because you encouraged them to do so.

It cannot be argued that because a few landless men did not make good on the land, no landless men should get land. You might as well argue that because one migrant from a different part of the country failed to make good on his holding, no migrant should get land, or that because one smallholder let out his holding on the 11 months' system, you should not give land to any other smallholders. You will have failures in connection with the distribution of farms, just as you have failures in every other walk of life, and it would be well for the House to face up to that fact. At any rate, I think I can say that the percentage of landless men in Meath who have got or will get holdings, and who fail to make good on these holdings, will be very small.

We can give you examples of very successful farming by smallholders in County Meath. It was only on Monday last that my colleague who spoke was listening to a discussion between a big farmer and a small farmer, both public representatives, at a meeting. It was an interesting discussion. The small farmer said that he was able to make his land pay, that he got no special assistance and that he had his land stocked now and money in the bank. He added that he was only able to sell his oats at the ordinary rate. The big man came along and said he was not able to make his farm pay, although it was pointed out that he was able to keep his oats stored over the cheap season and sell it at one-third more in price than the small farmer. The small farmers can make good, and they will make good. I do not advocate for a moment that land should be left indefinitely with people who do not work it or do not make an attempt to work it. We do not want to go back to the 11-months' system.

I know the Minister is very anxious that where land is given out the people who get it should work it. I am sure he will have the support of every Deputy in bringing about such a condition of affairs. What I do hold is that the people should get a certain time to prove that they can work the land economically, to the best advantage for themselves and their families. I must say that the Land Commission have carried out an enormous amount of good work. Generally speaking, the division of land in County Meath has been satisfactory. I will say of the Land Commission that they have not been subjected to political influences. My colleague referred to the local clubs with a political pull, and he said they were influencing the Land Commission, but I can stand up here and state quite openly and frankly that the Land Commission have not been influenced by political clubs.

They refused to be influenced.

So far as I am concerned, and also my colleague, we have never attempted to use our political influence. Very many estates have been divided in County Meath, and there were no complaints heard afterwards, from any political camp. I think that is a very big tribute to the Land Commission and to the inspectors in charge who took over the division of the land. We find that in many cases some people are left out of land division schemes, and we also find that the Land Commission are always ready to investigate the matter again and favourably consider our representations for a review if some new facts are brought to light. If any Deputy suggests that Dáil representatives should be debarred from sending in extra local information that may be sent to them for submission to the Minister or to the Land Commission, that is another matter. I know that the Land Commission are always prepared to review cases. If you ask why certain people did not get any land, they generally reconsider the case to see whether they overlooked claims in any particular way. In many cases, of course, people have been disappointed, and I have had my share of disappointments. I know that in some cases the rules of the Land Commission in regard to division have been altogether against some people getting land. The only course in such a case is to request a revision of the rules of the Land Commission.

Looking at the amount of land divided in County Meath, I must say that the Land Commission have done excellent work there. Notwithstanding that my colleague has appealed to the Minister to go slowly in the matter of land division, I would ask him to speed it up in County Meath. It is the outstanding complaint from one end of the county to the other that the land is not being divided quickly enough. I know it is hard for the Land Commission to please everybody and that they are endeavouring to divide the land as quickly as possible, but I would like to remind them that there are large areas in Meath where no land has yet been divided. I would like the Minister to indicate what steps he will be able to take this year to speed up land division in Meath.

Wherever land division has been carried out, we have had an uplifting of the conditions of the countryside. We have reached a more secure and a higher standard of living for the people who have been put on the land. We have seen the erection of bright, healthy homesteads, each house a unit in itself, and that is something that should commend itself to all the people. Supposing this country has to go through a crisis at any future date, we can look around the countryside, where these smallholders are, with a feeling of confidence that they will be able to support the people of their particular areas, to support themselves and their families, and they will be able to send quantities of their produce out to help other portions of the community.

I think the money spent on land division has been very well spent. I believe we are getting excellent value for the money expended and, instead of slowing the good work, I would appeal to the Minister to accelerate it. A new economy is growing up in the country as a result of land division, and that should bring joy to the hearts of social workers and should commend itself to all people who believe in the future greatness of our native land.

Apparently every Deputy who spoke to-night had a grievance on behalf of some section of the community in connection with land division. So far as the actual division of estates is concerned, in the area that I represent we have not had very much land division so far. In the case of one estate, at any rate, the Grehan estate near Banteer, one section of the community have a definite grievance. People employed on the estate lost their employment there through the taking over of the lands. One particular instance was that of a man who had been employed on the estate for upwards of 40 years, and whose son has been employed there with him in later years. This man was a cottage holder on the boundary and he got three acres of land, including a quarry. I submit to the Minister, and I am not saying it in any spirit of carping criticism, that where land is being divided, people who are losing their employment by reason of the acquisition of the land ought to be entitled to preferential treatment, particularly where they have their homes in the neighbourhood of the particular estate. If they do not, it may mean that where there is a growing family they may have to leave the area and seek employment elsewhere. I submit to the Minister as a point for his consideration that these people are fully entitled to preferential consideration in the division of land.

With regard to the actual arrangements of the division, I have had only one experience of them so far, and the estate in question was not very large— something about 300 acres. The number of applicants who visited the unfortunate inspector on that occasion was far greater than the number of acres. In fact, the man in whose house the inspector was working announced to the assembled crowd that he did not think there was much good in their coming in to the inspector as there was not enough land to make a grave for each of them. The difficulty was occasioned, to my mind, by the fact that nobody seemed to have any notice at all of the inspector's arrival. Some people, I know, did, but in general the people who were anxious to put in claims had no public notice at all of the inspector's arrival, and on the day that word got out of his arrival the countryside started to pour in to this particular house, and that was the position for a number of days. I suggest that where lands are being taken over for division in areas like that, some type of public notice should be given and people should be notified to put in their claims in writing. Such an arrangement would possibly save a lot of trouble and a lot of the terrible bother which inspectors have under the present system.

Frankly, I pity the inspector who has to go down and spend week after week in a house in the country interviewing claimants day in and day out for a long period, asking them questions about their acreage, their valuation, the number in their families, what money they have, and filling in application forms and generally interviewing people practically day and night for six weeks or two months. I suggest that something like public notice be given of the intention of the Land Commission to distribute these estates among uneconomic holders and landless men in a particular area, and that people who believe they are entitled to get this land should have an opportunity of submitting claims in writing. I know that they have an opportunity of submitting their claims in writing to the Land Commission before the inspector arrives, if they are sufficiently in the know, but there are many people who are not sufficiently in the know and who may not be wise enough to write to the Land Commission a month before the inspector arrives and to put in their claims. On this particular occasion quite a number of people were taken completely by surprise when the inspector arrived—people living within half a mile of the actual estate—and it was every bit as hard on the inspector as it was on the people. For the future, where an estate is being divided, in all justice and fair play to the applicants who hope to get a portion of the land and who believe they are entitled to get some of it, they should be notified in the public Press that the Land Commission intend to distribute a particular estate, and that intending applicants should put in their claims in writing, before a certain date, and, if necessary, to substantiate their claims afterwards at a personal interview.

I referred in passing to the fact that some people might not be sufficiently in the know to get their claims in in time. I do not want to refer to the question of pressure being brought to bear by anybody on the Land Commission officials, but I should like to say, in fairness to a body of men who, to my mind, have a very hard job, that, from my short experience of the Land Commission inspectors dealing with people making claims for holdings on these estates, they are doing their job very well. They have a very hard job to do. They are in the midst of a seething mob of people, every one of whom expects to get land and every one of whom has at the back of his own mind the idea that he is able to work a little greater pull than another. They have to satisfy everybody to the best of their ability, and do justice to everybody, and I am satisfied, from what I have seen of them, that inspectors have a terribly hard job which they are doing very well.

On the point of the actual division, the estate to which I refer is the Leader estate, Rossnalee. I do not think that was at all a suitable estate for division. In the first place, it was somewhat on the small side, for one reason; secondly, the land does not appear to be very good; and thirdly, a lot of the land is apparently marshy and covered with trees and bracken. It is a start, I admit, but it was not the most ideal place to start with, because I am afraid the Land Commission will find it difficult to make a number of economic holdings there, and the number of acres which they will be able to add on to other economic holdings in the area will not be sufficiently large to make a good job of the division. I refer to this matter because that is what I have been told by people who have been offered land there. The amounts they are getting seem to be very small, and I should prefer that the Land Commission, when putting a person into a new farm, would give them a fair-sized holding, and that where they are adding acres to a small holding, would add sufficient to give a decent holding when the two are put together.

There is another point in connection with the interviewing which I want to stress. We have had appeals here for the British ex-Servicemen and old I.R.A. men. Naturally, the people who spoke in favour of both spoke with all the vehemence at their command in support of their claims. When I was appearing for claimants in land division, I heard questions being put to the claimants, one of which was: "Have you any I.R.A. service?" That is, to my mind, a perfectly justifiable question, but it is rather vague. It might be quite possible for a man to have had I.R.A. service which began in 1921 or 1922, and if such a man is entitled to preferential treatment in the division of land in that locality, so is the man in the National Army in 1922, 1923 and 1924. If the question of I.R.A. service is going to be used to put people in a privileged position, the length of that I.R.A. service ought to be taken into consideration, and if post-truce service is going to be considered, ex-National Army men should be entitled to exactly the same privileges. In my own hearing, people have been asked that question by the inspectors, and I say that it is very vague. I submit that if I.R.A. service, in its implication in that question, means post-truce service, the National Army man is entitled to the very same preferential treatment as the I.R.A. man with post-truce service.

I am satisfied that the people handling the division of land are doing their work very well, and I am perfectly satisfied that, so far as the officials whom I have met are concerned, we shall have nothing to complain about from the point of view of any injustice to any applicant, in North Cork, at any rate, if those officials are left with us. The gentleman whom I met when dealing with one particular estate could not have been more courteous to the people with whom he was dealing, despite the fact that, as I say, the house he was in was surrounded by hundreds of people, that he had to please everybody and that, in doing so, he had a very hard time.

The second point to which I wish to refer is in connection with the acquisition of land to which Deputy Cosgrave alluded. His remarks apply, as the Minister is aware, not alone to cases where the lands were not vested in the Land Commission, as in the County Meath case, where the land was held under a fee-farm grant, but to other cases where the lands were reoccupied by the Land Commission, where they had been vested, where the annuity had been fixed, and where the lands had been registered under the Local Registration of Title (Ireland) Act. When the Land Commission fixed the price on their evidence of market value and the redemption value of the annuity was deducted from it, the owners were left in somewhat the same position as the lady in County Meath. They got a fiver out of it. I know that a number of the Fianna Fáil Deputies are ready to get up and say that that is not the position under an Act which Fianna Fáil passed. I do not like to steal their thunder, but I may as well refer to it now. If a case comes to the notice of the Minister for Lands, whether it is vested or non-vested, and his valuers fix a price of £1,000, and the price paid to the landlord is £995, if it is non-vested and the price to redeem the annuity, if it is vested, is £995, then, Land Act or no Land Act, passed by this Government, the last Government or any other Government, it should not be put into operation against the owner of the lands. The Minister for Lands ought to use his discretion and not acquire lands where it means taking them from people and giving them a fiver in exchange.

The amazing thing about it is that, from my own experience, Government valuers are a very peculiar breed, and the Lord alone knows how they arrive at their valuations. I should hate to put the Minister in the position of asking two Government valuers to go down to value a particular farm, telling one that he was to value it for probate, for death duty purposes, and telling the other he was to value it for purchase by the Land Commission, and telling neither that the other was valuing it, because there would be a terrible discrepancy between the prices fixed. If a man who was valuing the lands fixed the valuation for the Land Commission at £1,000, one could be quite certain that the valuer valuing it for probate purposes would fix it at £3,000.

Or at £5,000.

So far as this matter of valuation is concerned, I am sure I may take it that the very people who are employed as valuers by the Land Commission are also employed possibly by the Revenue Commissioners in another capacity. I say that the discrepancy between value of land when the Government is taking it over or buying it out and the value that is fixed by another Government valuer on the same land when death duties are being claimed, is astonishingly great. The difference will be found to be an amazingly big one. We have cases where the valuers fix a price, and when the redemption value is deducted from that price there is left a figure that is entirely unfair to the owner of the land. In such a case I would say that whether the matter is justified or not under the Land Acts, the Minister should exercise his own common sense and his own common decency and say: "We will not interfere with that person." Sometimes the argument is put up that the lands are not properly worked. I would say that unless one is perfectly satisfied that the people are leaving the lands completely derelict and throwing away any use they might get from the land, it is a crying scandal, particularly in a country where we are told we are living under a Christian Constitution, that we have such a case as that in which a farm of 205 acres of land was taken by the Government from a widow for the paltry sum of a five pound note, and which, according to the latest information I have heard, she has not yet been paid.

There is one other point to which I would like to refer. I was looking over the Estimates and I got the shock of my life when I discovered that one of the busiest offices in the Ministry of Lands, the sub-division branch, costs practically the lowest amount of money of any of the sub-offices. In the Estimates before us the sub-division branch is estimated to cost £3,854. The office of the Minister for Lands, to which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney referred in such glowing terms, costs £4,271. The collection branch costs over £44,000. I simply give those figures to make this point— time and again I have had complaints from professional colleagues of mine, and I have been asked to look up the question of the delay in the application for the sub-division of holdings and estates. I have indeed very little reason myself to complain about the sub-division branch. I always found them most obliging and ready to expedite division where they were given the chance to do so. But I would say this, that in view of the number of sub-divisions that must have come in during the past few years, and especially since the housing grants came into operation, the number of people applying for sub-divisions for an acre of land or so in order to make title and to qualify for the loan or grant towards the building of a house, the volume of work in the sub-division branch must have greatly increased in the last few years. I assume that the increase in the number of applications is the principal reason for the delays. On reading over the Estimates I am beginning to wonder whether it is that the delays are caused by the fact that the sub-division branch is under-staffed. I would like to make one point to the Minister on this matter of sub-division. It is evident to anyone in my profession that where the lands are registered under the Title Act of 1891 one can proceed much more quickly where the lands are vested in the Land Commission than where they are not vested and where no folic has been opened. I hear of great complaints of delays where the final vesting in the tenant has not taken place. I repeat again that I found the sub-division office most obliging, but if there is anything in the point I am making that this office is the very busiest office, and as it appears to my mind to be costing less than any office in the Department, it is quite possible that the Minister might be able to help us who are anxious to get our sub-divisions through quickly if he were to transfer some of the people in the collection offices to the sub-division office.

The first matter to which I would like to refer is the delay in taking over certain estates in my constituency. My principal reason for bringing this matter up is that the ratepayers of Cork County are paying through the nose for these delays. It is now several years since the Rostellan Estate was put into the hands of the Land Commission for taking over. The amount of rates due to the Cork County Council on that estate is now £1,700, and the unfortunate men in the 15 and 20-acre farms on the hillsides have to pay some of that arrears in addition to paying their own rates. In the Foley-Turpin Estate the arrears due to the county council for rates amount to £800. It is bad enough to have the annuities falling on the ratepayers without having the arrears of rates on these estates falling on them, too. An estate in Ballinrostig owes arrears to the Cork County Council of between £850 and £900. I do not know what the total amount of these arrears due to the Cork County Council would be, but it certainly is a very large amount. The worst feature of this is that in the wind-up of the whole thing, when the estate is finally taken over, the unfortunate county council gets only two years' arrears of rates. They lose the balance, whatever that may be. I suggest to the Minister that steps should now be taken by this State to take over all these estates.

I do not see Deputy Esmonde in the House. He accused me a while ago of laughing when he alluded to a political pull. I have here before me a statement made by a member of Deputy Esmonde's Party where he said that through the efforts of the Cumann na nGaedheal clubs and the resolutions that were passed by some Cumann na nGaedheal people, an inspector from the Land Commission was sent down and got a certain estate divided. When I heard Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, the late Minister for Justice, talking here this evening about pressure on the Land Commission and the yielding to intimidation, I was amazed. I follow up the same thing and I find a report of a public meeting that was held on the Lattin estate. That meeting was attended by the then Leas-Cheann Comhairle, Deputy Morrissey, the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Heffernan, and other Deputies. They attended to protest against the disgraceful manner in which the Land Commission had divided up the Lattin estate. That is the way things used to be done.

They had no pull.

But it is stated here that through the efforts of the Cumann na nGaedheal clubs they had succeeded in getting proper tenants put into one estate. When the Cumann na nGaedheal clubs themselves were not strong enough, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was brought in and the Parliamentary Secretary was brought in and the Deputies for the constituency were brought in to work intimidation on the Land Commission so as to see that the proper people should get the land.

The pull did not work that time.

It is stated here in one part of this report that a district justice got 360 acres of land. That was the way that the lands were divided in those happy days under Deputy Roddy's régime. I personally have approached the Land Commission on several occasions in regard to the division of estates in my district and recommended people, who, I considered, were entitled to divisions of land and I make no apology whatever——

Did you succeed?

——for endeavouring to see that the men who were out doing their part from 1916 on, got their share when the land was going. They are entitled to it, and, as far as in my power lies, I will see that they get it in my constituency at any rate. I make no apology for doing that. Let that be clear. The men who were living on the side of the hills, who stood the Tan war and the other wars, who did their bit for Ireland when men were wanted, and who had been paying the £1,700 on the Rostellan estate and annuities on their little holdings, are due to get a share of the land when it is being divided there. I am not alone in that. Every Deputy in my constituency has taken the same attitude. I heard Deputies disown that they went over to the Land Commission, but every time one of them went to the Land Commission he got his whack, and there is no use denying it. They put up claims for people they considered were entitled to the land, and it is their duty, in my opinion, to put up such cases, and let the Land Commissioners decide afterwards. They would not be doing their duty to their constituents if they had not done that. If that had been done properly in the past in Tipperary, the district justice would not have got 360 acres.

A Deputy

You can deal with him now.

They are dividing up that land now. Deputy Roddy drew a comparison between the amount of arrears of annuities due in 1932 and the amount of arrears of annuities due at present. I say to Deputy Roddy and to members of the Party opposite, that they should be the last individuals to mention in this House the amount of arrears of annuities that are due to-day, because they are the very individuals who went out through the country and began a campaign of "no annuities" right, left and centre, and who endeavoured to bring down this Government, who forced their dupes and their fools into the fights and struggles which culminated in the struggle in Marsh's Yard. The men who led from behind, who had not the pluck to go where they sent their dupes, should be the last people to come in here and complain of the amount of arrears of annuities now. It is a tribute to their work that £1,298,000 in arrears of annuities is now due. Now they want the Minister for Lands to come down with the mailed fist on their dupes, clear the land of stock, and sell them off in order that the £1,200,000 which they advised them not to pay in 1932 and 1933, should be collected.

Have they not paid them three times over in the tariffs collected by England?

You will get your opportunity later on.

I was out fighting for the land when you were doing other things.

I say this much, these people are treading on very thin ice when they come here to talk about the amount of arrears of annuities now due. They ought to remember that. It is the result of the campaign which they carried on, and I think they are doing a very wrong thing in impressing on the Land Commission now to go in and seize the stock of these unfortunate dupes. That is what they are proposing to-day. I am anxious to see these people getting a fair chance. If people were foolish enough at any particular period to listen to the advice tendered to them by Deputies opposite, and refused to pay their annuities for two or three years, and if they cannot now pay them all together, I certainly would appeal to the Land Commission to give those people a chance and to take the money from them by degrees, as they can afford to pay it.

Wipe them out altogether, as you did the last time.

Deputy Roddy also alluded to the difference between the £191,000 expended on the improvement of the estates in 1931, and the £700,000 that is now being spent on the improvement of estates. Estates were not improved in 1931. I remember some years ago giving a case of an improvement here, an improvement that undoubtedly was entered up under the heading of improvement of estates, where in the division of a holding an unfortunate tenant got 35 acres and a mansion. The out-offices were divided, and portion of them was handed over to another tenant. When the Land Commission came along to improve the place, there was a big old barn there with a big double door. They went to build up the double door into the barn in order to convert it into a dwelling house, and they took away 17 steps which were leading up to the front door of the mansion to build up the door of the barn, with the result that they left the poor man who lived in the mansion with no means of getting into it except by a ladder. That was what was called an improvement of estates in the old days. If Deputy Roddy has any doubt about it, I shall bring him down to the place and he can see it for himself. I went down there one wet day, and I saw the unfortunate man with a load of hay backed up to the door of the house, while his wife was throwing the children out of the mansion, one by one, on to the load of hay. That happened on the Mount Uniacke estate, in Killeagh, County Cork. I shall bring you down on an excursion to see it if you like. That is the manner in which the estates were improved in those days. I think that when you have £350,000 paid in wages in the improvement of estates, that it speaks very well for the manner in which these estates are being improved. Fences are being built, and the land is not being given over to the tenants as a commonage.

Deputy Esmonde and Deputy Brasier made allusion to what happened in connection with allotments given to soldiers and sailors. Deputy Cosgrave on the other hand complained about the small amount that was being paid for land. He seemed to think it unfair that tenants are getting land so cheaply. Here is what is being challenged:

"We have able Land Commission inspectors going down to the country, men with 15 or 20 years' experience, valuing and inspecting these ranches which the Land Commission is proposing to take over... They inspect every field, dig up the soil, take into consideration everything on that land, its suitability for holdings and so on; and what do we find? Generally the owner of that land, if he thinks the price does not suit him, comes up here to our friend in the Land Courts and appeals against the price, and our friend in the Land Courts generally allows him 20 per cent. to 30 per cent. in addition to the price which the experienced men who inspected the land had found was the price which the tenant to which this land was to be distributed could afford to pay."

What is the Deputy quoting from?

I am quoting from Volume 29, column 684, of the Official Report for the 18th April, 1929, a report of a speech made by the only honest Cumann na nGaedheal Deputy that ever came to this House, Deputy Hassett, of Tipperary. Of course you got rid of him. He was too honest.

That is why we have on the one hand Deputy Esmonde and Deputy Brasier complaining about the price of the land that was handed over to these soldiers and sailors, complaining that they cannot pay the annuities even though they are now halved by the Fianna Fáil Government. How could they pay when the gentlemen who were connected with the Soldiers' and Sailors' Trust, and who are still connected with it, came along and dug up an old gentleman who was in trouble with his land and said, "We will take this over from you; you, poor beggar, cannot hold it. We will take it off your hands and we will go up to our friend in the Land Courts, to whom Deputy Hassett alluded, and we will see that you get a good price and the fellow who comes will have to pay the piper." That was the position. Anybody who looks at the estates that were divided in these days, and who asks where are the fellows who were put into them will travel a long way to find them, because they left in the middle of the night and did not look behind them to see who was coming after them. We have to see that these people who get holdings make good, and I make a fair and honest suggestion to the Minister, which I think will help us in Land Commission debates, by enabling Deputies to know exactly what they are talking about, and that is to get a few buses and to take those interested in agriculture to Gibbstown to see what the Land Commission has done there. I went there at my own expense, because I wanted to inspect the holdings to see if the tenants were getting a fair trial, and whether things have been done satisfactorily. I found conditions at Gibbstown satisfactory.

It is a good job you went back.

I did. I was interested in the manner in which large estates were being divided by the Land Commission, and, with all due respect to the County Meath Deputies, I think the influx of a little new blood and a few people who know how to work amongst those fellows down there has done no harm, but a lot of good. Even in this House some Deputies are three-quarters asleep. I saw men in Gibbstown from Mayo, Donegal, Kerry, and a few from Cork; and they had their land ploughed, despite what a Deputy on the opposite benches said. The land was ploughed and was producing crops.

It was ploughed for them by Meath men.

I beg your pardon. I saw the new people working there. There is no better way for improving that part of the country than by bringing in new blood. No one can tell us that Meath people know how to work land. They do not. You should put a few Corkmen amongst these chaps to put a bit of life into them and stir them up a bit. That would be a good job.

And to show us how to make poteen.

A drop of that would be good, too. I saw the manner in which the land was divided in Meath, and I say to the Minister that I do not think these people got sufficient land to earn a livelihood for themselves and their families.

Hear, hear.

As a farmer, and as one who has followed the plough since I was 12 years old, I am of opinion that in dividing estates the Land Commission is not giving sufficient land to enable families who go there to live without having to turn their hands to other kinds of employment. A man who gets a holding should be able to support himself and his family on it without having to go out and compete with local labourers either on the roads or in the fields.

We are in agreement now.

I am glad we agree on something. Perhaps we differ on some things. I urge the Minister to bear that suggestion in mind when dividing estates. It is all very well to point to the poor parts of Mayo where families live on three or four acres. I say they are not living out of such land. They are not existing on these holdings and there is no use pretending that they are. Anyone who wants to know how these people live has only to examine the map which was placed in the hall of this House to realise the position. Before the map was placed in the hall, people on these small holdings lived with the help their friends in America sent to them, and on what was earned in England and Scotland during the harvest. At least 30 to 40 acres of decent land is required for a family to live upon. Anything less would only create another problem, as the migrants would be entering into competition with local labourers and the new conditions would then be worse than those that previously obtained. I was interested in what I saw in Gibbstown, and I believe it will not be for want of honest work on the part of the migrants that the scheme will not succeed. The people I saw there had their coats off, and were prepared to work hard. As far as I could see, they knew how to work. I urge the Minister to bring Deputies who are interested in farming down there. I think it is their duty to go there to see how the scheme is working, in view of the large amount of money that has been spent.

In conclusion, I suggest where annuities are not being paid, and where the ratepayers have to foot a heavy burden on estates that are in the hands of the Land Commission, these estates should, in the interest of the ratepayers, be taken over. I do not think it is fair to the ratepayers that estates on which there are arrears due, and estates like the one at Rostellan, the Foley-Turpin estate and the Smith estate, should be left there. They should be taken over and divided. If delays occur, as far as I can judge the fault is not with the Land Commission, but because of objections, as they are called. There was the case of an old maid with 700 or 800 acres of land who went before a board of health recently to object because one acre was to be taken for a labourer's cottage. Where no rates were being paid, and where a place was lying there, it should be taken over. In my opinion, the present Minister is the first Minister who has tackled this problem fairly and honestly. He is doing his work well, and I say this for the Land Commission officials that they are doing their work equally well. I suppose it may be said by some Deputies that it is against the grain for me to praise any officials, but, with a considerable number of years' experience, I must say that I have always met with civility and that any case that is fairly put is honestly considered.

If you did not get your point it is because you should not get it. That is all I have to say about the matter. From my personal experience I can say that Deputies have been met fairly and honestly, and that everything that could be done by the Land Commission officials and the Department has been done. In conclusion, I would say to the Deputies on the opposite side who are now complaining about the amount of arrears of annuities that are due: "At least, let your dupes get a chance to get out of the mess for which you are responsible; let those arrears stand over for a few years and be collected by degrees off the men whom you advised not to pay."

That is not true.

Yes, and you were drilling them into Marsh's Yard like sheep but you were afraid to lead them.

That is a damn lie.

The Deputy said all that before, and must not repeat it.

I do not wish to repeat it, but I think I should say that the Deputies of this House who led that campaign were as well able to stand on a lorry as the unfortunate fools who took their advice. Instead of standing their ground they ran, and by running they saved their hides.

The Deputy is always ready for a campaign of falsehoods.

It was rather amusing to listen to the Deputy who has been speaking on the other side. What he had to say was a source of amusement on this side. Most of the time he did not seem to know what he was talking about, except in the end when, in a foolish way, he tried to bolster up the Minister. The Land Commission, like other Departments of State, is necessary. Most of the Deputies seem to be interested in the work of the Department from the political end. You have people trying to get a foot, a rood or an acre of land from somebody else.

You have people who want to get a farm taken from somebody else or a farm kept for somebody else in order to get votes. These are the sort of questions that seem to be occupying the minds of Deputies for a number of years. It was a sorry day when, in 1924, it was found necessary to set up in a hurry a special branch for the division of land. That was made necessary by what happened in this country. The lands were left there and had to be divided. I had some experience of the division of land in my county in 1925. I think there was a very fair division made at that time. The old I.R.A., the Land Settlement Committee and the Fianna Fáil clubs did not enter into it at that time. It did not even matter what side you took in the civil war—you got a fair show.

That was how things went on in the early stages. Things were not too bad until the Minister and his friends went out to tell the people of this country about all the land that was there to be divided—that there was enough land to give a farm to every man. After that the Fianna Fáil Party came into power and since then there has been utter confusion. In the first year or two the Government did not divide much more land than had been divided by their predecessors. You had demands made by the Fianna Fáil clubs for the division of land; you had meetings at the cross-roads through the country for the formation of land settlement committees at the instance of T.D.s, and requests to the Department of Lands for application forms. We have had, as I have said, utter confusion. We had trouble. We had the burning of houses in the first place and the knocking of fences. While all that was going on, you had land being offered to the Land Commission and the offer not being accepted. At least, schemes could not be prepared even in cases where no question of title arose. I suppose it did not suit the Land Commission to prepare schemes or, at least, certain people, because the members of the land settlement committees have proved themselves to be so worthless that they could not get enough credit to buy a spade or a fork for the people they would like to see getting the land. Of course, if an estate was divided and if certain people did not get the land, immediately you had a "ruck," because that would mean the loss of so many of their supporters to the people opposite.

I am sorry for the Minister, but you have this political wangling in connection with land division. I asked the Minister a question yesterday about the Hanly estate, in my constituency. I do not want to be too controversial. Most Deputies have heard of the late W.P. Hanly, of "Battering Ram" fame. During his latter years I could say nothing against him. I had to admire the man for the amount of employment he gave. He employed half the countryside. It did not matter to me what his past was, but while he was employing a number of people he was persecuted day after day. He was being asked what portion of his land he was going to give up. You had a lot of that going on at the instance of the local land settlement committee. They were advised not to persecute him further, but they did not take the advice. That was going on for years. There is trouble in the district now, with the police minding the place. Fences have been knocked down. You had meetings at the cross-roads to which T.D.s sent letters of apology. They did not attend the meetings, but they advised the people. You have had gates and fences knocked, while nothing has been done in connection with land that has been offered to the Land Commission. Why has that offer not been accepted? You have T.D.s writing letters of apology, but they have not the courage to attend the cross-roads meetings. I am against the Land Commission in so far as it encourages a policy of that kind.

How does the Deputy connect the Land Commission with all that?

We have a sub-branch of the Minister's Department in Thurles consisting of 11 inspectors, three or four other officials and a couple of typists, dealing with land. These lands have been the subject of discussion in the Minister's Department for two or three years and have caused trouble and annoyance from time to time. They are still causing annoyance and they are still in the hands of the Land Commission. Unlike some other T.D.s from my county, I do not blame the staff of the Land Commission. Occasionally, we have speakers at the cross-roads telling us that the staff of the Land Commission are pro-British and that only they are so rotten these lands would be divided. I want the Minister to try to stop this trouble in some way. I do not want the Minister to be sending inspectors up and down the country to look at non-residential farms, the owners of which may be living in the town. I want these inspectors to go to places where land is available for division. Perhaps the Minister does not understand. What happens is: some person with a certain kind of political mind decides that a certain farm should not be left to a particular man. That is reported to the Minister's office. An inspector comes along and calls to half-a-dozen cottiers and says: "Are you an applicant for land?" Of course, we are all mad for land. They say they do want land. The next thing is that a committee called the Land Settlement Committee is formed and operates around that man's farm.

I shall give you one instance. It refers to a man who lives not far from Fethard. This man bought, in 1922, a farm which cost £2,300, from his nephews, who were badly off. He himself was not a farmer. He raised some of the money in the bank. I shall tell the Minister the amount, if he likes. He worked the farm fairly well for about 10 or 11 years. Two or three years ago, he asked some people on this side of the House to ring up the Minister or the Secretary of the Land Commission and to say that he had sold the place for £950. I was three times in touch with the Secretary of the Department. The gentleman who bought the place at £950 is a farmer's son of ordinary standing whom Deputy Fogarty knows very well.

I should like to know whom you are speaking about.

I shall tell you in a minute.

However, the place could not be transferred. It is less than 70 acres. The place could not be transferred and has not been transferred to the other farmer who bought it. The farmer who bought it has, after nine months' waiting, bought another place for £3,000. The Land Commission keeps the man who borrowed portion of the price of the farm in the bank in suspense and they will not say whether they will allow him to sell the farm or not. I want the Minister to stop that annoyance of decent people who, perhaps, have non-residential farms. A man may have an outside place or he may be a shopkeeper with 50 or 60 acres of land, and he is subjected to trouble when an agitation is started for the purpose of making political capital. In Tipperary we have practically a sub-department of our own. Let the Minister take the lands offered to him, lands which are lying derelict, and stop annoying ordinary people. I should like if the Minister would seriously attend to what is happening in connection with these non-residential farms. It is a crying shame. I never thought it could happen in this country that a man who worked hard, made a bit of money and bought an outside farm, perhaps with a view to setting on it the children whom he was rearing, would be persecuted because of his politics, while another farm lying by the same place will not be touched. That was the reason that I put down a question with reference to the Cobden Estate of the late Mr. W. P. Hanly. A comprehensive scheme did not enter into that question at all at the time. It is only lately it entered into it. It is time we had an end of this wangling.

Deputy Corry was rather amusing, but it was very hard to understand him. The Land Commission is, certainly, collecting the land annuities with desperation. Perhaps the Minister would tell us what is the position with regard to the land annuities. I should rather that everybody would pay. It would be really better for everybody. We have from every county council applications for overdrafts, and the real trouble is due to the non-payment of land annuities. The Minister has collected a certain amount of land annuities. I do not say he put them in his pocket. They were put in somebody's pocket all right, and why should the county councils have to pay these annuities now and try to obtain them from people whom the Government have put into such a position that they are finding it very difficult to pay? Why not take a conscientious view of the position? Legally, I am as likely to be right as you are. I ask the Minister to go into this question of the land annuities and not have half the people of the country trying to pay amounts they have paid twice over. That is the duty of the Minister for Lands.

I would again impress on the Minister that in the division of land there should be no more political prejudice of any kind. Where land is to be divided, let it be divided at once. Do not hold it over until after another election, because it will not do any good. Do not hold it over until the Land Settlement Committee dissolves. Divide the land and give it to the people who are deserving of it, regardless of politics, and you will get more credit in the country, and the officials of the Department will get more credit. We are getting tired of this wangling, and it is about time it was stopped.

I am very much interested in the discussion to-night. One thing I have discovered is that there is almost unanimous agreement on both sides of the House that the holdings given to people should be in the region of 30 acres. That is rather good news to me and, if it were not that Deputies were generally speaking about the South and the Midlands, I would imagine that a new hope lay before the people who are expecting allotments. However, coming as I do from the West, where the average holding would be considerably less than 20 acres, I would like to say to the people concerned that, while their idea of an economic holding is very excellent, it must bring home to them that the people in the West, where the average holding is less than 20 acres, must be living in a state of endemic poverty. It has been stated that a farm of from 22 to 25 acres cannot offer any other prospect than one of poverty to the occupier. I suggest that Deputies must agree with me, when I speak on behalf of a big section of people in the West whose average holding is under 20 acres of poorer quality of land than that in the Midlands and South, that these people in the West must be living in great hardship. The proposition which I make is that the primary purpose of the division of land in future in this country should be the relief of the most depressed section in the community, those people living in the West on a poor quality of land and on very uneconomic holdings.

I also found a sort of agreement between speakers on opposite benches from County Meath. However they may have disagreed on technical points, two of them agreed on this, that the division of land was a very good thing within limitations. They agreed that the division of land in Meath should be confined to the people of Meath, first, last and all the time. In that I entirely disagree with them. I say it is a selfish policy, that it is not logical, and that there is no real argument in favour of it. The people of Meath have no more claim to the land of Meath which the Land Commission have taken for division than the people of Mayo, Leitrim, or anywhere else. There is no such thing as ownership of land in any person. The primary purpose of the division of land is to relieve those who are trying to make a living out of land, whose area is insufficient and whose quality is unsuitable and unfit to yield a return in the way of an economic living for a family. I assert again that the primary purpose of the division of land is the relief of those living in congested areas, and that migration should be persisted in until that problem is solved.

It only begins then.

Very considerable sums of money are voted in this House every year for the relief of slum conditions in our cities, towns and villages, and no voice of protest is ever raised, no matter how much money is spent in that connection. Pxans of praise and approval go up from the benches here in connection with any effort to deal with that problem. I suggest that the condition of the congests in the West is as much a sore, as great an evil, and calls for redress as much as the problem of the slum dwellers in the cities and towns. Up to the present I must say that I am not satisfied that the Land Commission have tackled this question of the congests in the West with the energy and force that the problem deserves. At the same time, I must say that very considerable improvement has been made in recent years in these districts by the considerable increase which has taken place in the area of land divided. Various efforts have been made in the division of bogs, the reclamation of bog land even if only in a small way, and in the improvement of estates. The employment given in that way has helped to improve matters. But within that area itself there is no possibility that the problem can be solved. I therefore appeal to the Department to take special notice of that problem of the congested areas and to realise that the only way of solving it is by moving the people out from that area. That movement must be on a wide scale, and should take place before there is any further large division of land in the districts where land is available.

There is another matter to which I should like to direct attention. I believe that, to some extent, there is an excess of expenditure on the improvement of estates. I confine that remark to the money spent on the building of new houses. I think that a suitable house for a small holder could be erected for less than is at present expended. The average price for the erection of a dwelling-house with some out-offices is from £240 to £300. If an alternative method were adopted, and those who are being allotted holdings were asked at what price they could provide suitable housing accommodation for a family in the country, it would be found that in the majority of cases the people concerned would be able to provide themselves and their families with a suitable house at a sum substantially less than that which the Land Commission are spending at present under the method of contract.

I think there should be closer association between the Land Commission as such and the Forestry Department. I think the Minister and his Department must realise by this time, from their experience in dealing with those questions, that there is between those two bodies a lack of cohesion necessary to the smooth and easy running of the two Departments. Those two Departments are very closely allied, and must remain closely allied, having regard to the nature of the problem involved. I think that as soon as possible the Minister should endeavour to bring about a closer working arrangement between those two sections, with a view to speeding up the working of both of them.

Deputy Cosgrave referred to one of the outstanding items which appears in the Estimate, that is: the cost of collecting the annuities. It is rather unfortunate that this year's cost is in excess of that for some earlier years. I do not like to be vindictive, but I do think that the cause is easy to find. From all that I have said of the conditions in my own County of Leitrim, it will be easily understood in this House that the people there are not in a position to meet their annuities any more easily than those in other areas, but in County Leitrim I am told that the amount of arrears outstanding is very small. In fact, the deduction from the agricultural grant in County Leitrim this year, I am informed, is very trivial.

If that is so in Leitrim, where conditions were never anything but hard, how does it happen that the amount of arrears in the well-to-do areas has increased to such an extent? I am afraid Deputy Cosgrave must look for the answer to that question, and find the cause for the growth of arrears and the consequential increase in the cost of collecting those arrears, somewhere in the few years when a wild and reckless campaign was advocated by the Party of which he is the leader. I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that a remnant of that reckless campaign is responsible to-day for the increase in the arrears of annuities and the increased cost of collection. It is unfortunate that that should be so, and it is doubly unfortunate that Deputy Cosgrave should waste his time in attempting to make a point out of it. There is really no point in it except one that is injurious to himself and reflects discredit on the tactics of his Party in the recent past.

Was it we who encouraged the Fianna Fáil supporters who are in arrear?

It is quite possible you did.

What about your own policy?

What particular one is that?

The economic war. Did not that contribute to the non-payment of arrears?

I have referred to what, to my mind, is the obvious explanation for the accumulation of arrears and annuities and the increased cost of collecting them. Why does not the Deputy reserve himself and his remarks for what is relevant to that question? What has the economic war got to do with it?

The Deputy has made the statement that this Party started a certain campaign. That is not so.

I suggest that it is the Deputy's diseased mentality on that question of the economic war that is responsible for the diseased and irrational "no rent" campaign which resulted in the position I am discussing at the moment. I do not think there is anything further I wish to say. I think the Minister and his Department are really and honestly doing their best, but they are dealing with a problem for which it is almost impossible to find a satisfactory solution. It is immaterial how much land you have in an area; there is bound to be discontent, dissatisfaction, and suggestions of influence, political and otherwise, when that land is divided. In spite of all that, I think the Minister and his Department are honestly doing their best. I suggest that they ought to endeavour to use the land for the best practical purposes. The most pressing needs of the community are to be found in the West of Ireland. Those people have experience of hard practical work. They have experienced the necessity of wringing a living for themselves out of land which could scarcely be regarded as sufficient to yield a living. On that account I think they will make satisfactory and useful citizens if they are given an opportunity on the better quality land which is now available. That opportunity should be given to them before further development in the allotment of those lands leaves very little for that useful purpose.

Strangely enough, I am in agreement with Deputy Corry and Deputy Maguire in one argument which they put forward on this Estimate to-night—that rarely happens— with regard to the amount of land which is being allocated to the new tenants. Deputy Corry made a good case for more land for the new tenants; so did Deputy Maguire. But Deputy Corry spoiled it by saying immediately that the present Minister was the only man who tackled that problem properly. He ought to have stuck to what he first said. It may be possible to convince the Minister that he is creating a new problem for the future in this country by endeavouring to compel people to live on farms of 10 or 12 acres. That is what is happening. Those people are getting what are supposed to be farms of land. They are supposed to be farmers now. But they are not; they are in competition with the road-men, with the labourers, with anybody and everybody.

The sooner the Minister realises that in that particular matter he must mend his hand, and the sooner the Government of the day realises that this matter of land division deserves a lot of thought, the better it will be for everybody. My own opinion is that it got more thought in the early days of the Congested Districts Board than it has got in the whole period since that time. There is no use in continuing land division in such a way as to create a new problem for the future. If it is continued in that way, we will have in this country a type of small tenant who will be neither farmer nor labourer, and who cannot support his family on the land which he has got.

I do not agree with Deputy Maguire when he says that the primary purpose of land division ought to be the relief of congestion. It ought not. The primary purpose of land division ought to be to provide a potential living for a man and his family, irrespective of what he is. I do entirely agree, of course, that as far as congestion is concerned, it ought to be relieved, and relieved first, but the Land Commission should not allow themselves to be pushed away from what is the primary purpose of land division, that is to provide a potential living for a man and his family. That ought to be the basis of it. The Land Commission should see to it that the people they are putting on the land are the best people for it, and that they will make a living on the land and get enough land to live on.

I have heard Deputy Giles and Deputy Corry speaking about preference being given to old I.R.A. men. I have had a very peculiar experience in that respect. It is this. What I find is that, as Deputy Linehan pointed out, the question is put to a man: "Have you had any I.R.A. experience?" If you have had I.R.A. experience you are supposed to get a preference, but the peculiar thing about it is that, if you are getting a pension, you will not get land. That is the experience I have had. The explanation given to me for certain people not getting land was that they had got a military service pension, but apparently, if you are a prospective or potential pensioner, it does not matter. You may get a preference in land for being an I.R.A. man even while you are awaiting your pension. It seems to be quite all right in that case, but if you had happened to get your pension the day before, you will not get the land. That is the case that was put up to me. It concerns a very deserving case, but the man concerned has got a pension, and therefore he cannot get the land.

Another case is that of a certain uneconomic holder in the immediate vicinity of a farm, with a wife and child, and a valuation of £4. He applied for land but did not get it, the reason being that he was a temporary road ganger and that his father and mother, as a matter of fact, were both alive and both drawing the old age pension. Now, there is not anything reasonable about that. The fact that a man is a temporary road ganger, or even a permanent road ganger, is not any reason why he and his family should be deprived of some means of living for the future. If he is a road ganger, he is only in a temporary capacity anyway, and his services can be dispensed with next week. He cannot hand down his road gangership to his family. He has no rights in it, and if a week afterwards he ceases to be a road ganger, then he has nothing to live on except these four acres of land, and there he is in the middle of an estate which was divided and where every man except himself got land, but he would not get it. I am drawing the Minister's attention to this because, if that is the policy of the Land Commission, I say it is wrong. I said so to the inspectors. I must say that, as far as the inspectors are concerned all over the country, I think they are making a very fair and reasonable attempt, and I have never met with anything but courtesy from them.

Now, Deputy Maguire and Deputy Corry referred to-night to the collection of the annuities. I must say that I had certainly more respect for Deputy Maguire's powers of observation before he spoke than I had afterwards. If Deputy Maguire or any other person cannot see a relation between the non-payment of annuities and the economic war, he is very stupid—very stupid indeed. Does not everybody know what happened? Did not the President say from the benches opposite that the annuities were being collected still by the British and with greater hardship than before? Where is the use of Deputy Corry or Deputy Maguire saying that we led a campaign against the payment of annuities? They know perfectly well that that is not so.

The first people who led such a campaign were people from the back benches of Fianna Fáil in this House, and if Deputy Corry wants to find out where the annuities are worst paid, let him or other Deputies of his Party go to Kerry and Clare and see what has been outstanding in the way of arrears there. There was no Blueshirt movement worth talking about in these areas. We had practically no influence there. One would imagine that it was we who influenced the Fianna Fáil supporters not to pay their annuities. I suggest to Deputy Maguire that he should go into the sheriff and make a comparison for himself by finding out who are the majority—whether they are Fianna Fáil supporters or Fine Gael supporters—with regard to the non-payment of annuities at present. Let him go down to Roscommon, and I will give him a lesson.

I have told the Deputy that in Leitrim we have practically no arrears. Contrast that with his own constituency.

Well, I shall put down a question next week with a view to finding out what are the arrears in Leitrim.

They are very negligible.

There is no use in anybody trying to palm off that sort of stuff. It is not going to be swallowed at this hour of the day. Everybody knows what has happened in regard to the non-payment of annuities. The economic war was the cause of it, and the only cause, and, mind you, if you find a wrong being done, or something being done that ought not to be done, if you find a law being broken, the history of this country has been this: that the law has been broken because there was injustice somewhere, and it is worth while looking for the cause when a law is being broken. There was a cause for the non-payment of the annuities, and no person expressed the cause better than Mr. de Valera himself when he said that the annuities were being paid to Great Britain with greater hardship than ever before.

The sooner we drop all that nonsense and set our hands and our heads to consider what the problems of this country really are, the better it will be for us; and if we are going to have land division in this country we ought to have land division with some sign of brains behind it. Mind you, I am not saying that the Minister and his officials have not been doing good work, but I am saying that if we are going to pursue a policy of spending between £250 and £300 on the building of a house and a stable on what is considered to be a farm of land which will not support a man and his family, then we are creating a problem for the future. There ought to be some thought of the situation before deciding to go ahead with that type of policy.

One thing that struck me as very peculiar with regard to this Estimate was that the Minister, in his opening remarks, made a statement to the effect that there was a dwindling of the estates or of the land which was now available. At least, that is how it sounded to my ears. Is that correct?

Mr. Boland

Yes; that is correct.

Well, that is reasonable and sensible, but it does not appear to me to be sensible that, side by side with the dwindling of the land available for division, we have increased expenditure for its division. That does not appear to me to be reasonable or sensible.

Mr. Boland

That is easily explained.

It may be easily explained, but I hope the Minister will explain it. Now, I understand that there is quite a large amount of land on the Minister's hands at the moment, awaiting division. Quite recently the complaint was made to me by a man living not very far from Dublin—I think it was immediately on the borders of Meath—that the Land Commission were rushing the acquisition of lands from people who held the land and that, after taking the lands away from those people and giving them very little for it, the Land Commission themselves were letting the land on the 11 months system and that now they were overcrowded with land and, as a matter of fact, could not go ahead with this division.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 8th of April.
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