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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 1938

Vol. 73 No. 8

Private Deputies' Business. - Provision of School Books and Requisites.

Mr. Byrne (Junior):

I move the following motion:—

That, believing that grave hardship is borne by many school children, whose parents are unable to pay for their school books and school requisites, the Dáil is of opinion that immediate steps should be taken by the Government to supply books and requisites free in all such cases.

In proposing this motion, I am not unmindful of the work already being done by the State to help to keep children at school who might otherwise have to stay away. I do not think it is necessary for me to stress the hardships that are still being borne by many school children and their parents owing to lack of the necessary books and materials. School attendance officers inform us, as a result of their visits to the homes of the children concerned, that many of the absences from school are due to the lack of books. Cases are only too numerous, indeed, of children being forced to leave school before the normal leaving age or before they would otherwise do so because of the amount of money they would have to bring to school for books in their last year. Even in their earlier years, the amount of money which pupils have to bring into school is oftentimes well beyond the means of the unfortunate parent or guardian who might be one of the unemployed or one of the many thousands who are poorly paid. The cost of a set of books in the fourth standard is, we are told, approximately 12/6. I leave it to the House to judge what must be the dilemma of many parents who have to supply books for four or five or even more children. Furthermore, text books and readers are still changed too frequently to allow of the passing down of books from senior to junior to any really helpful extent. If books were not changed so frequently, parents might have some consolation from the fact that young children could use the books with which the older children had finished. But that is not the case. The facts are, briefly, that many parents all over Ireland simply cannot pay for their children's school books and it is our duty to provide the books and requisites in these cases. I refer Deputies to paragraph 4 of Article 42 of the Constitution, which states that: "The State shall provide for free primary education." I submit that, until we provide free school books and requisites, we shall not be providing free education. It is a very urgent matter and we should do so as soon as possible. I have not gone into the matter in very great detail because I know every Deputy must be in agreement with the motion and my appeal to the House is to do this now.

I have great pleasure in seconding the motion so ably proposed by Deputy Byrne. In the first place, I must congratulate him on the first occasion he has addressed the House, on the very clear and concise manner in which he put the subject matter of his motion before the House. I am not going to deal at great length with the motion. I am personally aware of the great work done by the Government and the previous Government in the matter of education, by providing primary schools and technical schools, with the sole object of enabling those who want to advance themselves to take advantage of the facilities that are being offered by the Government in that sphere. Considering that the State at the moment is spending at the rate of almost £3,000,000 on education, I think Deputies will agree that, if the State is to get a return for that huge expenditure, it is necessary that children attending schools should be provided with the necessary books to enable them to benefit to the fullest from the expenditure of such a large amount of money. Every one knows from experience that a child attending school without books is like a good tradesman with bad tools or no tools at all. Every one knows that no matter how competent a tradesman may be, if he has not proper tools he is at a great disadvantage. I submit to the House that there are a great many children attending school at present who, because of the position of their parents and because of the fact that these parents are unable to provide them with books, are not able to get the best results from the education imparted to them. Those in close contact with the education of the children of the country have stated over and over again that they find their work has been greatly impeded by the fact that numbers of children attending the various primary schools have not the necessary books. I refer to statements made by members of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation whenever their annual congress is held. Reference is frequently made there to the desirability of providing free books for necessitous children.

I must state candidly that I would be the last man to advocate any legislation which would enable the Government to interfere unduly with the family life of the people of this country. I am rather sceptical as to the advantages of the State interfering at all. It is only because I am convinced that it is absolutely necessary that the State should do something in regard to supplying free books that I have pleasure in supporting this motion proposed by Deputy Byrne. I know it is a motion that will commend itself to the support of all Parties in the House. I also know that the Minister, judging by his public speeches, will give it his most sympathetic consideration. It is just a matter of finance, but I am sure that it will be possible to put the terms of this motion into operation just as it was possible to put the School Meals Act into operation. That was an Act which, when first passed, possibly gave rise to a feeling of suspicion. Many people possibly thought that it was not the correct thing to do. Anyone who is a member of a public body will agree that his experience has been that that Act has been a great boon to the poor children attending our primary schools. In the same manner, I think the terms of this motion should get legislative effect on lines somewhat similar to those observed in regard to the School Meals Act. I am not going to deal at great length with the motion because I know it is one that will meet with favourable consideration from Deputies and from the Minister. I am sure that it is only a matter of time until the Minister will be in a position to give legislative effect to this motion so that the grievances from which so many poor children suffer will disappear.

I support this motion. While I agree with Deputy Byrne and Deputy Coburn in most of their statements, I cannot agree with their references to the great work done by this Government or the previous Government for primary education. I do not think that the fact that new national schools or new technical schools are being provided is in itself any indication that there has been any great improvement in education or that great work is being done for primary education. I perhaps would draw down upon my head the wrath of senior members of the House if I were to assert that the standard of primary education is not much higher now than it was 20 or 40 years ago, but I think I can reasonably say that under the system which is in operation to-day, with its overcrowded curricula, the schools are expected to cover in five or six hours a programme that they could not possibly get through satisfactorily in 24. I believe that the provision of free school books is a very desirable object, but I think that I would be understating the position if I did not say that in addition to giving school books, the Dáil should consider the work that the teacher has to do in the primary schools to-day and consider the studies that the children have to undertake. If we provide them with free school books, I think we should also provide them with a new curriculum which would give the teacher a chance of doing something that he can reasonably be expected to do in five or six hours and give the child a chance of learning something that he may reasonably be expected to study within those five or six hours.

To my mind the great difficulty that exists in connection with the question of providing books for children, is the fact that these books are so often changed. Not so very long ago the books that were used in one class by a child could be used in succeeding years by other children of the family, or they could be passed on to members of other families because the books used in one class were practically the same year after year. I find that the great grievance amongst parents is the fact that books are so often changed. They have to spend very often a sum altogether out of proportion to the income of the family on providing books owing to the fact that books are so often changed for a particular class. They find that year after year they have to purchase entirely new books, whereas not so very long ago it was quite possible to utilise the books of the elder members of the family for the younger members in after years. If one takes the position of a family in distressed circumstances, the family in the country where the father possibly is a labourer in bad health or is unable to obtain work or is possibly living on some small amount of unemployment assistance, and then realise that that man and his wife are expected to expend quite a considerable amount of money in providing their children with school books during the year, anybody could make a case for this motion. There is ample justification for the motion from that point of view alone but in view of the fact that we are spending well over £3,000,000 on primary education in the year and that the very small amount necessary to implement this motion would not make a terrible difference in that large sum, I do believe it would not be worth while, and it would be very wrong, to attempt any discrimination in the distribution of free school books. I believe that it is money this House could safely vote. There is nobody in this country, whether rich or poor, will quarrel with the provision of free school books, particularly when they realise that there are classes in the community at present on whom the cost of school books, and particularly in the case of a large family, or of a family in very distressed circumstances, is a burden which the people cannot reasonably be expected to shoulder. I ask the House, as Deputy Byrne and Deputy Coburn asked it, to support the motion.

This is not a new subject in this House, or outside it. The matter has been raised very frequently in the past here, by way of parliamentary question and otherwise. I remember on one such occasion the Minister, while professing sympathy with the proposal, expressed the view that there was no great demand for this change throughout the country. I think he was honestly, but entirely, mistaken in that view, because going through the country and meeting the people who are keenly interested, because they have to be keenly interested in a matter of this kind, one could not but recognise that this was a reform that was very strongly desired and very much required throughout the country. I think it would be no exaggeration to describe the reform envisaged in this proposal as a great national need, and I hope sincerely that, as a result of the discussion, the Minister, who, in recent public utterances, we are happy to note, indicated that this matter was getting fuller consideration than it received in the past, will indicate his agreement with the need for this reform and announce his intention to give effect to it at an early date.

The fact is that the masses of the people in this country have nothing to offer their children but an education, and with the limited opportunities they have in that direction, such educational facilities as can be put at the disposal of the children ought to be freely put at their disposal. For the masses of the children whose parents cannot afford a secondary education, the only education must be that of the primary schools. I agree that that, on the whole, has been very good, and the records of these schools over generations show that the boy and girl in the small national school in a remote area have been able to attain very great prominence, and have had the natural talents and brilliant intellects they possessed brought out and given a full and proper place as a result of that national school education. I think it is most regrettable that, in the process of that education, there should be a position in which a number of the children are denied the full facilities for receiving that education.

There is not an opportunity of making very many new points on this matter, because the points that have been made are those that would strike anybody who takes part in such a debate. There is, however, one aspect which might be mentioned. Above all others, young children are extremely sensitive, and children attending school who feel that they are not in as favourable a position as the children who sit in the same class or the same room are in a very unhappy position. We know that children going to school like to feel that they are in a position of equality, in respect of the little things that are necessary in school, with the other children, and the classification of children by reason of the circumstances of their parents and the handicaps imposed on their children because they are not able to compete with their comrades in the class because they have not got these school requisites to the same extent, and because they know, even in their very early days, that the procuring of such requisites imposes a heavy burden on their parents, is a very unhappy position for such children.

I agree that a good deal towards the provision of school books for children whose parents are not able to provide them has been done by the national teachers, but I ask again why should that be the case? Why should the teacher have to call the poor child out of the class quietly and tell him that it will not be necessary to try to secure any money at home for books, but that he or she will be prepared to provide the books? I know that that is very generally done at present and I think it is very regrettable that our educational system should have such associations as that kind of thing represents. I give all credit to the teachers who do that work, and I think credit can be extended generally to the bulk of the teachers in the country who are always anxious to help their children and whose main ambition has been to see that the children get the best possible training, and get their intellect and brains and opportunities developed to the fullest possible extent in the school. It does not need any great emphasis to show that the disabilities of parents of very humble circumstances and with very little means have been intensified by the increasing cost of books. They are more expensive than they used to be years ago and they are changed very frequently. Again, we all note with pleasure the fact that the Minister has stated recently that in that connection some changes have been made. I take it that that is the result of the work of the Inter-Departmental Committee which examined this matter some time ago. That is all to the good, but it does not go far enough, and the Minister would do a very great national service by going the whole way in this matter, and by making it clear that the children of the humblest parents in the country will have the same opportunities in the national schools, so far as school requisites are concerned, as any other children.

I think, and I have always thought, that amongst the greatest tragedies in this country is that type of tragedy represented by the growing boy or girl who has no opportunity in life. We know that this is a matter of tremendous anxiety to parents all over the country. Any member of the House, any public representative on local bodies or elsewhere, will know, from his correspondence and from his interviews with the people he represents, that it is one of the problems one comes up against most frequently. I believe the position in that respect is intensified because children have not got equal opportunities in the matter of getting primary education. I wind up on the note on which I opened this statement by saying that this, to me, represents one of the most important reforms the House could consider, and I sincerely hope that, as a result of this discussion and of bringing this matter very definitely to the notice of the House, the Minister, who has indicated sympathy and consideration with the general principles of it, will not stop at any half-way house on the road to securing this reform, but will recognise that in bringing about this reform, he is conferring a very definite boon on the parents of these children, and, in the end, is only securing justice for the children of the country, the justice of which their citizenship of the State entitles them to, and which, as Deputy Byrne said, has been actually enshrined in the Constitution.

I hope that every Deputy will feel sympathetic towards the motion. It is laid down in the Constitution that the State should provide primary education for all the children of the country. Commonsense and common humanity dictate that at the present time an effort should be made to lighten, as far as possible, the burden upon the poorer classes of the community who have young helpless children attending school. It is a matter of regret that the marriage rate in this country is declining; and that at the present time it has reached a very low level. If there is one thing that might deter young people from entering the marriage state it is the difficulty that those who have entered it find in providing for the education of their children. If the implementing of this motion imposes a slight burden upon the general taxpayers, I am sure they will acknowledge that they are doing a public service by encouraging marriage and the rearing up of families. That, surely, is a social duty which every taxpayer will admit is an obligation.

There are a few points that, I think, the Minister should give consideration to if he has decided, as I am sure he has, to implement the motion. The first is that there should be no discrimination between children. If it be decided to provide books for the children attending the national schools, then they should be supplied to all the children. Otherwise, the feelings of children and of their parents would, to a certain extent, be hurt, and the motion would, in that sense, probably defeat its object. Primary education is free to all citizens, regardless of their means. If the House accepts the principle of supplying free books, then they should be supplied free to all citizens. There is a second point, and it is this: if the State decides to supply free books, there may be a tendency to increase the number of them. I think the Department of Education should exercise a rigid control over the number of books supplied to children. Otherwise there may be a demand on the part of teachers, a demand which will not be resisted by parents, to increase the number of books which children will be expected to study. That might lead to an injustice so far as the taxpayers are concerned, because books might then be provided that were not necessary. Deputy Linehan very truly pointed out that the child's mind is not capable of absorbing everything that can be put into print. It might also lead to a grave injustice so far as the children themselves are concerned, because they would be expected to carry a heavy load of books to school. That would be a serious thing for children in the country, many of whom have to travel two and three miles to school. The number of books should be strictly limited, in the interests of the mental and physical welfare of the children. If these points are attended to, then I think the Minister should have no hesitation in accepting the motion.

I desire to support the motion, and hope that it will be considered by the House in a non-Party spirit. From time to time I have poor people coming to me telling me of the difficulties they find in providing books for their children. It is certainly very hard on poor people that they are not able to do that. It often results in grave injustice to a clever child. Quite recently I investigated the incomes of 709 families, each comprising about six persons, in the City of Cork. I found that there were 163 of those families living on an income of less than 24/- a week. The lowest amount which each family had to pay in rent was 3/- per week. How on earth could these parents afford to buy books for their children.

I know from my own experience that teachers and other people in the city, when they get to know of the condition of their neighbours, do help them by buying books for their children. I had a very regrettable case brought to my notice recently. It was that of a boy of 14 years of age. He was a really brilliant boy, but because of the economic position of his parents he had to leave school and take up work as a messenger. Teachers and other people interested in the boy appealed to his parents to leave him at school. Eventually the boy's father got employment. After about nine months he was able to return to school, and I am glad to be able to tell the House that the boy has since won a valuable scholarship. Were it not for the fact that his parents' good neighbours came to their assistance the intelligence and ability of that boy would be lost to the country. Within the past fortnight I heard of the case of a poor widow with four children whose eldest son has also won a scholarship. In that case also good neighbours came to her assistance. Members of the House realise that it is quite impossible for workers who are not in regular employment to buy school books for their children. I would appeal to members of all Parties to support the motion. If they do so they may be the means of helping many brilliant children to get the education that their talents merit for them.

As one who has had some practical experience of the hardships suggested by the motion, I desire to support it very heartily. I am sure that the Minister, from the experience he has gained in his Department, is in sympathy with it. There is no doubt but that under the present system very severe hardships are being inflicted on children whose parents are in poor circumstances, particularly the children of men who are unemployed or who can only get casual employment. People living on home assistance cannot possibly provide books for their children. It is a trait peculiar to the Irish character that parents will make any sacrifice for their children. I have known cases where that sacrifice has been made. I am sure Deputies will agree that it is not reasonable to ask poor parents to continue to make the sacrifices involved in this particular matter. As has been pointed out to us here to-night, it is not reasonable to ask teachers to make that sacrifice; I hold it is the duty of the State to make it. That duty has been laid down in the new Constitution.

We had it in the Constitution in the Sinn Féin days that all education is free. Now, we have it in the new Constitution that primary education should be free. This motion is simply a method of implementing that Article. While this duty is imposed on parents and especially on parents of the categories I have enumerated, education is not free and primary education is not free no matter how we talk about it. Very often we criticise things and attribute many drawbacks to the evil of our association with Great Britain. But, even in the bad old days, there was, in this country, a scheme operated whereby half the cost of the school books was borne by what now corresponds to the Department of Education and what was then known as the Commissioners of National Education. They paid half the cost of the school books and the children or their parents had to pay only the other half. In that way there was a reduction in the cost of school books in those days.

At the present time in Great Britain books and schools requisites are free to the children in the board schools. The only fault I have to find with the motion on the Order Paper is the discrimination between necessitous school children and other children. In the motion the question of school books and school requisites is confined to the case of necessitous school children. I suppose on the principle that a half a loaf is better than no bread, one must support the motion. But I think we should go further and say, as in the Constitution, that primary education is to be free to all the children of this nation. That being the position, school books and school requisites should be free to all children. I have had practical experience of the hardships that arise from want of school books, because in my own days if my teacher had not supplied me with books I probably could not have got the education I did get. As to the teacher at present, he is harried and worried at the beginning of the year over the difficulty of supplying books to children whose parents are unable to pay for them. We have to tell the children that they have to pay so much for their books and they do this by bringing a penny or a halfpenny weekly. That is the system adopted by us in Cork in order to perform the duty which should be done by the State. By that means we have tried to avoid any discrimination. As Deputy Murphy has pointed out, children's feelings are tender and they feel very keenly this matter of not having the money to pay for their books.

It is very often through no fault of the parents that this condition of things obtains. Many of the parents are either in casual employment, living on home assistance or the dole, and it is hardly fair to ask them to shoulder the burden of a duty that the State should perform. During the past few weeks we have been very generous with regard to dealing with Deputies, ex-Ministers and ex-Parliamentary Secretaries in the matter of allowances and pensions I suggest that as we are so generous in that matter we should be generous in this matter of school books and treat the future generation, the men and women of this State, with some generosity. By implementing this motion before the House you give them a chance of getting a proper education, give them a chance of the free education that is their right under the Constitution. Help the children to cultivate the talents that God has given them. If we do that we will be doing our duty by the future of the people of this country. It is a more pressing problem than the matter of pensions.

At present in Cork City we are carrying through an experiment in compulsory education. Children of between 14 and 16 years of age are being compelled to attend a further course of instruction. In that course we have free school books. Not alone have we free school books, but each child gets a free meal at midday. The free meal at midday is quite right, but why confine it to the few hundred children involved in this course of education? Why not make it the rule and provide for carrying it out so that the children who attend school from four to 14 years of age as well as those who attend school from 14 to 16 years should be given a midday meal? If it is possible to provide books and requisites and give a free meal in one case, why not do it for the children concerned in this motion? I think this measure will have the sympathy of all Parties in this House. I know that we have the sympathy of the Minister. Having that sympathy and support from all parts of the House, I do not see any reason why such a motion should not be implemented. The principal objection I see against it is that it makes discrimination as between the children of those parents who can buy school books and the children of necessitous parents. I would like to see the motion include all children and to say, as in the words of the Constitution, that primary education is free in this country.

So far as the Department of Education is concerned, its ability, as this House is aware, to improve educational facilities and to extend them depends very largely upon the financial circumstances. There are a great many ways in which I, as Minister for Education, could spend money with advantage and which I think would benefit the younger generation considerably if the money were available. But Deputies forget that very large sums of money have to be made available to accomplish comparatively small improvements and this is by reason of the size of the service. At the present time we are spending over £4,750,000 yearly upon education. That is a considerable portion of our national expenditure. As I pointed cut recently, if we are to make considerable developments such as, for example, extending the school-leaving age, these will involve us in an additional expenditure of £1,000,000 a year. If we seek to carry out these improvements we will at once be faced with the problem of how the money is to be raised to provide these additional services. There is a constant demand for better accommodation with regard to school buildings. It is not alone that there is a demand that better buildings should be provided but that the maintenance of these buildings should be taken over completely by the State, and also that the heating and cleaning of national schools should be made a State charge. Each of these items in the way of improvement would run into a considerable amount of money, perhaps £100,000 in each case.

Deputy Hurley and others who make demands for further expenditure on education forget that we are in a different position in this country from that which obtains in other countries. In Great Britain, for example, a considerable amount of money which is expended annually on education is provided from the local rates. If Deputy Hurley will look at the rate estimates for Glasgow City, or for Manchester, he will find there that very large sums are provided by the ratepayers towards defraying the expenses of education. I think that in the City of Glasgow, while the State provides more than £1,500,000 yearly for education, the citizens of Glasgow, through the rates, provide something in the neighbourhood of another £1,500,000. As far as I can remember, that is the position there. The demand here is to place the burden of further education on the State, without examining in the first place whether the expenditure in question is necessary or advisable, and where and how, in the second place, the money is to be found. As I say, if the money can be found, there is no doubt whatever in my mind but that it can be usefully expended upon extending educational facilities. Deputy Hurley also referred to the generosity of the House in connection with legislation which is at present being discussed here, but I would point out to the Deputy that the amount of money involved in that legislation is small in comparison with the expenditure that would be necessary to carry out some of the schemes that he and his colleagues desire.

Would not £20,000 buy a lot of school books?

£20,000 certainly would. I do not know whether the Deputy to whom I have been referring is really the most appropriate person to criticise the generosity of the members of this House, as he would term it, to themselves; but I might point out to him that only last week we passed an Estimate in the House for a very much larger sum of money, something in the neighbourhood of £156,000 a year, to improve the remuneration of national teachers. I simply mention that to show that a comparatively small increase of 5 per cent. in that direction comes to a very large amount of money annually.

In addition to that, there are a great many parents and others in this country who do not believe in the principle of free school books. They have an idea that the fibre of the people is being attacked, and the independence of our people destroyed, by the impression that is being created that everything can be got from the State for nothing, and that parents and members of the community in general have no responsibilities themselves towards their families. I think very eminent authorities outside would question whether the State should accept a motion of this kind without examining it very carefully indeed and without being fully satisfied that parents were not, in fact, in a position adequately to carry out their responsibilities.

I have been told frequently by those in touch with educational administration, and who have responsibility for it, that what is got for nothing is not appreciated and that if charges were made frequently for things that are obtained from State sources, they would be more appreciated; those concerned would take greater advantage of them.

Deputy Linehan spoke of the system of education. I do not know what authority the Deputy has for his statement that education is now inferior to what it was 20 years ago. The Deputy is not a very old man; perhaps he remembers 20 years ago, but I am inclined to think he has not so long left school that he cannot prevent himself from making grammatical errors in his statement, at least when he is addressing the House on educational topics and lecturing the House and the country as to the defects of the system.

Just 20 years.

With regard to the question of school books and the demand that they should be standardised or not changed, the position is that after 1900 a change was made in the system of classification in our national schools and, instead of treating each class separately, certain classes were grouped together—for example, first and second, third and fourth, and fifth, sixth and seventh standards—and, as a result of this grouping system, to meet the needs of our small rural schools, it has been found necessary to change school books from year to year. Last year we recommended the managers and teachers not to change the school books except where absolutely necessary and, where possible, and it is possible in a great many instances, to maintain the same class books in use for a period of years.

But the Department of Education is strongly against the idea of reverting to the position that we had before 1900, when we had a separate class book for each class and each class was treated separately. That would mean doing away with the group system that has been in vogue for over 30 years, a system fitted to our small schools and which seems to have given very good results. Within that group system it is certainly possible to adopt economies and we have suggested to teachers and managers to adopt these economies where possible. If these suggestions of the Department are carried into effect, it is anticipated that the cost of books should be considerably reduced.

In large schools the same books can, as a rule, be used year after year, and, if the teachers train the pupils to keep the books clean and neat, they should be able to arrange that books in good condition could be available to entrants to the class the following year at, say, half price. In the smaller schools the system of grouping classes together means, in Irish and English, for example, that the group must have a fresh book at least each alternate year. Where the books are kept in a good state, they could be used by another lot of pupils when, under the group system, they are again in use in the next succeeding year.

Representations have been made to me that the prices charged at present for some of the books used in schools are excessive. That is an aspect of the matter that I have been considering. If the prices here are excessive, as compared with elsewhere, I have no doubt that that is due in some measure to the fact that the cost of production here may not be as low as it is elsewhere. However, I intend to make further detailed inquiries into that matter, and, if I am satisfied that a case can be made to the publishers to have the prices of some of the books reduced, I shall make representations to them in the matter.

The whole problem, as I have told the House already, has been under consideration by the Department, and all I am in a position to say at present is that provision will be made in the Estimates for the coming year to enable grants to be made to national schools in aid of the provision of books for the children of necessitous parents. I am not in a position to announce the details of the scheme, but I hope to be able to do so within a comparatively short time.

I think that covers nearly all the points that have been raised, except that I should like again to warn the House that, while it is comparatively easy to introduce demands for extended service in regard to education or other matters, the Government, and the Minister for Finance in particular, have the responsibility of raising that money. I would like to point out that, since this Government came into office, the expenditure on education has gone up by nearly £400,000 per year.

I do not think there is any other point except that, as regards the question of discrimination, under the scheme, the details of which are still under consideration and have not been finally worked out, I fear it will be impossible to avoid discrimination as between those children who are deemed to be in need of special aid by means of a State subsidy and those other children whose parents are in more fortunate circumstances and who should be expected to be able to provide school books for their children. Moreover, any scheme which is introduced will only deal with school books for the primary school.

The Minister has drawn the attention of the House to the expenditure involved in carrying out a scheme of this kind. However, he has not given us an estimate, as far as I can follow him, as to what increased expenditure is referred to. I think it will be only a mere bagatelle, and I think the fact that he has referred to, the fact that £4,750,000 is expended on education, really makes the case stronger for spending the necessary money to provide school books for those who are unable to buy them. Indeed, there are more necessitous children in the country than the Minister is aware of. I am sure the Minister does not want to have these children going to school without having the means to profit by their attendance, especially since we have compulsory attendance. It is a rather harsh law to compel poor children to go to school and poor parents to provide them with food and clothing without compelling them also to provide them with expensive school books.

It has been a general grievance for some time with many parents that the price of books is too high. They have been extraordinarily high and the binding is not very good. Some of these expensive books fall into pieces after very little use, and that is a matter to which I would like to call the attention of the Minister. An effort should be made to get the books bound better.

I think the standard of some of the reading books could be improved, and would need to be improved. The standardisation of books that could be passed on from year to year would be a benefit, and I am glad to hear the Minister say that that is to be the policy of the Department of Education in the future.

I think that, on the whole, even though it may cost a little extra money, no money has been expended by any Department that would do more general good to the community than the money provided for books for children attending school. If they have no books they are only wasting their time. As I mentioned before, the burden on the parents is very heavy without imposing upon them the necessity of buying books for children who have to attend school compulsorily. I think there is a good case to be made for the provision of books for school children.

I am quite satisfied that this motion by Deputy Byrne is worthy of support. Still, after listening to the speech of the Minister, I am satisfied that we are not going to get anything like what this House expects on this motion. I am quite satisfied that the education of the masses is of the utmost importance to the advance of any country. I am also satisfied that the Government here for the last 16 years has done a great deal for the advance of education and bringing enlightenment to our people. I believe myself that the country and rural schools are the most important places where we should concentrate. I believe that all the money available should be spent on those schools, first, to provide proper schools and, secondly, to see that those poor children who are unable to provide the necessary school books should get those books at the State's expense. I believe that it is in the ordinary rural schools that we should really educate our people in the future, because the education that we need in this country is what I might term the education of a rural community. We should see that our children while at school devote most of their time in preparing for an agricultural life when they leave school. I am not one of those who has too high a hope in what I call the technical or secondary schools. I believe, of course, that they are what you might call fairly important but, at the same time, they are not nearly as important as the rural schools. A good many of the people who go to technical schools, where they follow up a certain line of study, find, when they leave, that they cannot get employment, and have to go back to the ordinary humdrum of country life, very often with high notions and a little bit too high education for the life to which they have to adapt themselves. I think it is bad for them because, as you all know, a certain amount of education is all right, but when you have a little too high an education for your surroundings, and have no scope for it, there is a tendency to get a swelled head and look down on the ordinary persons around you. It is not good for the country.

I believe the child of the poor man has an inferiority complex in most schools when he finds that his better-off neighbour's child has all the books he needs while he has to stand looking on with no book whatsoever. He has that inferiority complex. Of course, he had it from the domination we had in the past here of a foreign invader. We have not got out of that state as yet. I think, to give the farmer's child his proper place in the life of our country, we should put him on the plane where he will be able to stand in his class on the same level as his rich neighbour's child.

I know myself that one of the greatest hardships the teachers have in the country schools is that they have to provide books out of their own pockets for nearly all the poorer type of children in their schools. I know that the teachers do that out of generosity and from knowing that those children need the books. Still, I think it is unfair that we, with the government in our own hands, should ask our teachers, who have enough to do to look after the ordinary work, to provide books at their own expense. I believe that at the present moment, when poverty is so acute in our country, free school books are absolutely necessary. I do not believe that it would cost the huge sum that our Minister for Education more or less stated here to-night it would cost. I believe that £20,000 of £30,000 or £40,000 would certainly go a good deal of the way to easing the position in our schools.

I do believe that at the present day school books are altogether too costly. Even for the ordinary farmer's child they are too costly, and I think that some steps should be taken towards getting them down to the level that the people would be able to pay for them. Of course, there is something to to be said against that thing of changing our school books too often. I believe that we should concentrate on having a book that would last two, three or four years so that it could be handed down from the first child to the second, third and fourth child. I know, in my school days, the book of the eldest child was able to do two, three and four children afterwards and that meant a great deal of saving to poor people.

I believe that at the present moment there is too great a tendency to educate our people for a city life. The whole tendency at the present moment is to be educated, to get away from the country and into city life, whether it be as a typist, a shorthand writer, book-keeper or something like that. We are all satisfied that there are not enough of those jobs to go round. We should not be raising the minds of our people and giving them the idea that the only way to make a living in this country is to go into the cities and work in an office and try to get into high society, so called. We should concentrate on keeping our children at home in the country, giving them a rural training, and seeing that lectures are given more often in the schools on what it means to live an agricultural life in an agricultural community and how useful such a life is for our country and our people. Undoubtedly, at the moment, the young people are fleeing from the land. Somebody must stop that flight from the land to the cities, and to put a stop to it you have got to start in the schools and educate the people in the most noble profession of all in our country, and that is to live on the land and work on the land, whether in your own home or your neighbour's home, and not be thinking of getting away to the city and, perhaps, then finding that there is no job for you when you get there and, after a few months' time in the city, being forced to live in the lowest streets and slums of the city, realising that there is no hope for you. The place for our people is on the land, and our slogan should be "Back to the land." We should endeavour to educate our people from that point of view and imbue them with the idea that country life is the proper life for an agricultural country. I believe, myself, that something should be done by way of giving free school books to the children. After all, we ourselves united here the other day to help ourselves by increasing our allowances. I am quite satisfied that what we did was not wrong. We did it in the light of the circumstances of our times. At the same time, I do not see why we cannot unite now to put up £20,000 or £30,000 in order to see that our children who are in need of school books should get them. If we were to concentrate on that, we would be doing something noble and something that is worth doing.

Did I understand the Minister to say that it was his intention to introduce, in the Estimates for the coming year, provision for free school books?

No—Grants-in-Aid of the provision of school books in the primary schools for the children of necessitous parents.

Mr. Byrne (Junior):

Many citizens of Éire will heave a deep sigh of relief when, in to-morrow morning's paper, they read the Minister's announcement that at last this very necessary reform is going to take place. Every one of us here in the Dáil welcomes it very gladly, I am sure, and there is no question but the people themselves will be very pleased. Many speakers, during the discussion, referred to the various reforms in the educational line which have been made by the previous Government and by this Government, but I think that this reform, which the Minister has announced his intention of carrying through, is one of the best that could be introduced or that ever has been introduced. In view of the Minister's announcement, therefore, we do not intend to press the motion. I should like, however, to refer to one matter. The Minister spoke of the very large cost of providing school books. I think that the figure he mentioned was that it would be about £1,000,000. I do not believe, for one moment, that it would cost that. I think you could take an average of 10/-. You could take the fourth standard as, approximately, 12/6, and it would be less for the lower standards and somewhat more for the higher standards.

On a point of explanation, Sir, I am sorry if I gave the Deputy a wrong impression. The £1,000,000 refers to an entirely different matter—the raising of the school leaving age. Of course, the sum necessary to provide free books for all necessitous children would be very small in comparison with that.

Mr. Byrne (Junior):

Yes, I believe the sum would be very small. I submit, certainly, that it would be very small compared with the amount of good it would do, very small indeed. Deputy Cogan referred to the burden that was being placed upon the taxpayers, and he seemed to be afraid that the provision of free school books would tend to increase the number of books. I do not think that would be the case. The Minister for Finance, as we all know, keeps an eye on things like that, and we may be sure that he will keep a good eye on this matter. Actually, I believe that it will probably have the effect of decreasing the number of books that are being used. I have nothing further to say on this matter, Sir, except to repeat that, on behalf of the citizens of Éire, we, members of the Dáil here, congratulate the Minister on his announcement.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Wednesday, 7th December, 1938, at 3 p.m.
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