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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 1939

Vol. 74 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 58—Transport and Meteorological Services.

I think No. 3 on the Order Paper might be discussed in conjunction with this Estimate, because the Estimate provides the amount required under the order specified in No. 3. Accordingly, I move:—

That Dáil Eireann hereby approves of the Subsidy (Aer-Rianta, Teoranta) Order, 1939, made under Section 79 of the Air Navigation and Transport Act, 1936 (No. 40 of 1936) by the Minister for Finance on the 11th day of February, 1939, and laid before Dáil Eireann on the 14th day of February, 1939.

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £37,500 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1939, chun Seirbhísí Iompair agus Meteoraíochta.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £37,500 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1939, for Transport and Meteorological Services.

The Air Navigation and Transport Act provides that every order made under Section 69 shall be laid before Dáil Eireann as soon as may be after it is made and it shall not come into force unless confirmed by a resolution of Dáil Eireann. Hence the reason for the motion. The order to which the motion relates was made to authorise the Minister for Industry and Commerce to pay a total subsidy not exceeding £33,000 during the current year to Aer-Rianta, Teoranta, out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas, and in order to make that money available, the Supplementary Estimate which I have moved is being submitted to the Dáil.

This is the first order of its kind. I think some words in justification of the principle of subsidy may be considered appropriate. The importance which has been attached to the development of air transport by all the countries of the world is, I think, in itself a sufficient indication of their belief in its very great possibilities. In the Air Navigation and Transport Act the Dáil approved of the steps which the Government propose to take by promoting civil aviation in this country and establishing air connections between Ireland and other countries to ensure that Ireland would participate in the economic and other benefits which should follow from the development of this new form of transport. As was stated during the debate upon that Act, when it was before the Dáil as a Bill, the Government believed that the advantages were on the side of a national transport company in which would be centralised all the commercial air transport activities with which Ireland would be concerned.

In that respect, the tendency in other countries towards the formation of large scale companies operating internal and international air services under close governmental supervision was followed. The Irish National Company, or Aer-Rianta Teoranta, was set up by the Minister for Finance in April, 1937. Aer Lingus, which had been established earlier and was engaged in the operation of cross-Channel air services, is now a subsidiary of Aer-Rianta. It is the Government's aim to encourage air transport development, organised on sound lines with proper equipment, on a large scale and under Irish control. The services between this country and various points in Great Britain have been operated in accordance with that policy since May, 1936. These services have had a successful operations record and the companies concerned have recognised the necessity for the maintenance of high standards in speed and comfort, high standards comparable with the highest possible degree of safety. Provision was made in the Act of 1936 for the payment of subsidies in connection with air transport services. While it was the intention that such services in this country should be operated on a commercial basis, it was recognised at the same time that the experience of other countries had shown that in the proper development of air lines, particularly in the earlier stages, financial assistance by way of subsidy was necessary.

From the experience of Irish companies to date, it is clear that there is no prospect of securing rapid development in the sphere of commercial aviation without financial assistance from the Government on a substantial scale. In this respect, as I have already stated, the position of Ireland appears to be the same as in practically every country in the world. In view of the Irish companies' comparatively short experience in the field of commercial aviation, and the necessity of ensuring the maximum degree of development in connection with Transatlantic air services, considerable importance is attached to the companies' building up a reputation for a high standard of safety, as well as regularity and efficiency in operation. For that reason, expenditure by the companies, and consequently the subsidies considered necessary, are somewhat higher than they would be if operation precautions were less. It is considered that it would be a mistaken policy to accept lower standards than the companies have observed and propose to continue.

There are some figures here that may interest Deputies in this connection. Since the commencement of the services in May, 1936, the activities of Irish Sea Airways, that is to say a combination of Aer Lingus and the British company—West Coast Air Services, Ltd.—have shown satisfactory progress. For example, the number of aircraft miles flown increased from 151,600 in 1936 to 385,533 in 1938. The number of passengers carried increased from 1,330 in 1936 to 4,987 in 1938. The weight of goods carried increased from 6,472 lbs. in 1936 to 35,264 lbs. in 1938. The percentage regularity of services on the Dublin-London route increased from 90.96 in 1936 to 94.02 in 1938. While these figures are just cause for optimism as to the traffic in future. the accounts of the company show that the existing services are being operated at a loss. To ensure the observance of the highest standard of safety in operation and, at the same time, the use of modern equipment, the payment of a subsidy is essential.

The order provides for the payment of a total subsidy not exceeding £33,000 during the current financial year. This is the sum of the actual losses sustained by Aer Rianta Teoranta and Aer Lingus Teoranta up to 31st March, 1938, and the estimated losses in the year ending 31st March, 1939. The actual losses were Aer Rianta, 1937-38, £3,334; Aer Lingus, 1936-37, £4,824; 1937-38, £7,330. The estimated losses for the year ending 31st March, 1939, are Aer Rianta, £3,100; Aer Lingus, £14,235. The losses arose out of the operation of services—Dublin-Bristol. Dublin-Bristol-London and Dublin-Isle of Man. The terms of the order itself are self-explanatory. It will be noted that provision is made for the repayment of any amount by which the Estimates for the current year exceed the actual losses. I do not know whether there is any other point in connection with this matter which Deputies would like to discuss, but should they desire any other information, I shall be quite willing to supply it to them.

The Supplementary Estimate also contains another sub-head for a civil airport. Some explanation will be necessary in regard to that matter also. That additional provision is required in connection with the acquisition of land for aerodromes, for which service £58,050 was provided by the Vote of 1937-38. Owing to delays in completing the investigation of title, a sum of only £30,528 was expended. Accordingly, the payments have to be carried forward in this year and the increased provision in the Vote is necessary. The Vote for 1938-9 provided for an estimated expenditure of £10,100. The total payments expected to be made before the 31st March amount to £24,600. A Supplementary Estimate for £14,600 is, therefore, submitted.

There are a number of points which I want to put to the Minister. I suggest that in future where he contemplates acquiring lands compulsorily for the purposes of an aerodrome he should incorporate in his Bill a provision that the land should vest in him at once and let the title dispute be fought out by the parties interested afterwards. He can then proceed with his job, irrespective of the dispute as to who should get the money for the land. There is no reason why important work should be held up.

I think that is the position at the moment. We have power to acquire land at once, but payment for the land is dependent on a satisfactory title being produced.

I suggest that some scheme might be formulated whereby the payment should be made to a trustee for the rightful owners. The trustee can hold the money while the title is being investigated. First, let me say that every member of the House will heartily rejoice at the attitude of the Government in the matter of ensuring safety in aviation. They are perfectly right not to sacrifice standards of efficiency and safety in order to save money. Extravagance is to be condemned, but there should certainly be no cheese-paring, nor do I believe the Oireachtas would desire to have cheese-paring which would in any way interfere with the highest possible standards of air services originating in this country. The Minister said that the highest standards of comfort were provided by the company, consistent with safety. That is not true, and while I would not ask the company to cheese-pare in any way, and would be anxious to give them very liberal discretion to preserve the highest standards of safety, in view of the generous treatment they are receiving from the State, I do not think it is fair that they should impose upon persons availing of the service a wholly gratuitous inconvenience.

I mentioned last year, at an early stage of those services development, one very glaring shortcoming. It now requires to be mentioned with greater emphasis and it ought to be remedied now. If you take an Irish airplane at Baldonnel you arrive at Croydon in the middle of the day. Every other air service coming into Croydon has some kind of wheel conveyance to take you into Victoria Station, London. You may arrive with four other airplanes in the customs, and the sheep are then herded from the goats. One other man and myself happened to be the two goats. We were carted down to a suburban railway station with our baggage, and dumped on the platform. Everybody else coming from Poland, Sweden, England, France and other parts of Europe had various forms of buses or cars to take them into the centre of London. The two unfortunates who arrived from Ireland were deposited on a suburban railway platform with their luggage, and subsequently loaded on to a commuters' train. We all know what that means. There is no accommodation for baggage. We fell over everybody's feet, and carefully struggled into the equivalent of a tramcar. We were then decanted onto the platform at Victoria, where no porter ever presents himself because it is a local train, and they no more think of meeting those trains than they would think of meeting a tramcar from Nelson's Pillar. We scrambled out with our luggage and mournfully sat on it until we braced ourselves to carry it what seemed a mile and a quarter, the length of Victoria platform. The Minister knows that Victoria is a pretty large place. Being, as we are, fine figures of men we were able to stagger along, but if any lady had arrived with a considerable volume of luggage she might have sat there for a quarter of an hour while somebody was given six pence to find a porter with a barrow in which to bring the luggage to a taxi.

I admit it is not economical to provide road transport from Croydon to Victoria but, when a company is getting an ample subsidy, and when every other air company is doing it, it is highly undesirable that anybody using our service should be so served, and it is grossly inefficient. Now I do put it to the Minister that, in view of the fact that it is our aim to set a really high standard for the services we are providing, it is silly to spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar. The ships are good; the schedule is well kept; the accommodation at Baldonnel is perfectly reasonable; the personnel is admirable; every facility, convenience and courtesy are extended to people travelling by the air line; therefore, it is silly to spoil the whole for a ha'porth of tar. I do not know whether the Minister has used the service or not. Possibly if he has, special provision was made for him, but I can assure him that after one has made that journey—particularly if one is inclined to be air sick—it is not a pleasant experience to make that subsequent journey in a suburban train from Croydon to London.

The next point I wish to make is this: In view of the fact that we are going to have a protracted period of development, why on earth do we not get in contact with Imperial Airways, and make some deal with them so that our schedules could start from Dublin and end up in Melbourne if we want them to. I have no doubt whatever that some reciprocal arrangement could be made whereby Dublin would be virtually linked with any point of the Imperial Airways system. The Imperial Airways system is now subdivided into two parts, one covering the Commonwealth of Nations, and the other operating within Great Britain. It seems obvious to me that there would be a very great advantage if we established contact with those two organisations and linked up Dublin —and such other points in Ireland as we may subsequently link with Dublin —with the whole of the Imperial Airways systems. I suppose ultimately we are going to extend air travel to Cork, Galway, possibly Sligo and probably Belfast. Surely it is desirable, if we are going to have a network of airplanes passing between those cities, to link them up with the major cities in Great Britain, and also with the major ports of call on the Continent of Europe and the rest of the Imperial Airways schedule.

The Minister said we already have a service between here and several points in England. What are the several points? The only points in England I know to which we have a service are Bristol and London. There is no service to Manchester; there is no service to Liverpool; there is no service to Glasgow. I am not saying that at this stage there ought to be, because I quite agree that it may be impracticable to have them yet, but I think it would not be a bad plan in the interregnum to avail of the facilities which co-operation with Imperial Airways would make available. Lastly, Sir, in most countries of the world at present I quite agree that the commercial air services are subsidised, but in most countries those subsidies are made available by means of a mail contract. At present our air mail to the other parts of the Commonwealth of Nations is sent from here to London by boat and train, and thenceforward has the advantage of the Commonwealth arrangement whereby you can send a letter by airmail to any point in the Commonwealth for twopence. Could we not expedite the delivery of mails in London and further afield by dispatching them from Ireland by air? It may be that we cannot, but I imagine that by amending the schedules of our airships we might, and if we did I think the air company might reasonably be expected to carry some of those mails for part of the subsidy that they are getting. Possibly at the first stage the Minister would ask the air company to accept mails intended to be reconsigned on Imperial Airways air liners, and later he might determine to offer the company a larger subsidy than it is now getting if they would consent to carry all letters intended for London. I merely throw that out as a suggestion, because it is in line with the practice of, I think, every other air-minded country in the world.

I should like to ask the Minister what is the present position with regard to the proposed air port for Cobh and Cork. They have succeeded in selecting the most suitable site out of about nine or ten, and farmers there are rather perturbed by the extensions that have taken place lately as to the likelihood of their lands being immediately taken over. Now, what I am really concerned with is the attitude of the Government on this matter. I want to know whether they are prepared to give a substantial subsidy to carry out that work which will undoubtedly develop that area to a very considerable extent. Cobh having a Trans-Atlantic service, could be developed by the establishment of an air port. Owing to the high cost involved, a subsidy would be necessary, because it would be impossible for the local authorities to contribute, to any great extent, the very large sum that would be required for an air port. It is really a matter of national importance. I should greatly appreciate it, if the Minister could inform the House what is the position now, or what is the attitude of the Government, having regard to the fact that the matter has been discussed frequently, at considerable length, and reports of a very elaborate character put in. I think the time has come to ask the Minister to come to a decision on the question of establishing an air port for the South, in view of its geographical position.

I can only say that we are now merely at the beginning of air transport development here, and that plans for the future contemplate a very large extension of these facilities. It is, however, impossible to be definite with regard to plans, because many difficulties will have to be overcome, and a great deal of information collected. At the present time, the only services are those from Dublin to Bristol, Dublin to London, and Dublin to the Isle of Man, in the summer months. These services are linked up with other services, through the International Air Traffic Association. The position is that Aer Lingus Teoranta is able to book passengers right through from Dublin to connect with any air port in the world, to which there is a regular service. Aer Lingus Teoranta is agent for most of the Continental air lines. So far as organisation can give a link, it is possible for passengers anxious to get to any part of the world, to get a ticket at Aer Lingus Teoranta office in Dublin, and that ticket will deliver the passenger to his destination.

The question of mail services by air is, of course, one that has been receiving a great deal of attention. It is almost inevitable that in a short time all mails will, ordinarily, go by air. It is not possible, however, to make tentative arrangements, as the British have no facilities that I know of for handling mails at Croydon. The British air mails are handled at another part, somewhere in the midlands, and until they have changed their internal Post Office arrangements, or provided air port facilities there, not much can be done. In any event, the existing mail contract lasts until next year. I would be very much surprised if more than two or three years pass before the ordinary mails go, as they go at present, by air, to South Africa, Australia, and India. It is not possible to send a letter in the ordinary way from Britain to these countries unless by special arrangement. The letters are taken by aeroplane, and that will be the ordinary practice in a year or two. The matter is very definitely in view. We have prepared all the necessary plans for an extension of the equipment of the company. The aerodrome at Collinstown has been lengthened about half a mile, and the fullest possible consideration will be given to every aspect of this matter. It is anticipated that the civil aviation headquarters will be transferred from Baldonnel to Collinstown about June. Collinstown will not be complete then, but will be sufficiently far advanced to enable it to be used as the headquarters of the air services. In any event, all the essential equipment for safety in flying will be there. The administrative buildings will not be completed, and the hangars will not be completed, but there will be sufficient accommodation to enable work to be proceeded with. The matter of having better transport facilities between Croydon and London has been under consideration for some time and, I think, Deputies can be assured that the directors of the company are fully alive to the need for such facilities being there. It would, in fact, mean small changes, but they would add considerably to the air service.

Is something going to be done?

I can assure the Deputy that in so far as it is possible for me to bring pressure on the company it will be done.

If the Minister put down £100 for that purpose.

The Minister is bound by the terms of the Estimate. A few small matters which held up development here, such as the difficulties of ordinary tourist agents selling air tickets, have been got over. Some other comparatively small things will be got over in time, and the convenience of passengers fully met. So far as Cork aerodrome is concerned, I want to say that I regard it as so vitally important to the air transport services in this country, to take the fullest advantage of our international position that there should be a proper aerodrome in the vicinity of Cork. The Government is prepared to co-operate, and to assist in getting the aerodrome if the local authorities are prepared to make the necessary financial provision to that end. I am not in a position to say what the volume of cost will be. The Estimates have been prepared but they are not complete. I can assure Deputies that I am more than anxious that work on the provision of an airport at Cork should be proceeded with without delay. With regard to details of the present position, I refer Deputy Brasier to a reply that I gave to a Parliamentary Question last week. There can be no question about the desirability of having a properly equipped airport in the vicinity of Cork, if we are to take full advantage of the present development in air transport, and to use our geographical position and to get the very best out of it. I hope, therefore, that the local authorities concerned will be prepared to co-operate and to provide whatever money is required. Government assistance will be given.

The difficulty is this, will the Government give the greater portion of the cost?

That has to be settled by negotiation. There has been some delay—a delay which I regret—but I hope we will be able to get on more quickly in future.

Question put and agreed to.
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