Committee on Finance. - Vote 66—Army Pensions. – Dáil Éireann (10th Dáil) – Thursday, 23 Mar 1939

Mr. Aiken

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £391,086 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Pinsean Créachta agus Mí-ábaltachta, Pinsean Breise agus Pinsean Fear Pósta, Liúntaisí agus Aiscí (Uimh. 26 de 1923, Uimh. 12 de 1927, Uimh. 24 de 1932, agus Uimh. 15 de 1937); chun Pinsean, Liúntaisí agus Aiscí Seirbhíse Míleata (Uimh. 48 de 1924, Uimh. 26 de 1932 agus Uimh. 43 de 1934); chun Pinsean, Liúntaisí agus Aiscí (Uimh. 37 de 1936); agus chun sintiúisí agus costaisí iolardha ina dtaobh san, etc.

That a sum not exceeding £391,086 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for Wound and Disability Pensions, Further Pensions and Married Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 26 of 1923, No. 12 of 1927, No.24 of 1932, and No. 15 of 1937); Military Service Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 48 of 1924, No. 26 of 1932 and No.43 of 1934); Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 37 of 1936), and for sundry contributions and expenses in respect thereof, etc.

The total amount, £586,636, required for the service of this Vote during the financial year 1939/40 may be roughly divided into the following categories of expenditure:—Cost of administration, £19,584: incidental expenses, £3,982; cost of awards, £563,070; total, £586,636.

The main service of the Vote, the award of pensions, allowances and gratuities is distributed over five subheads according as the service relates to—

(a) Disability pensions and gratuities under the Army Pensions Acts, 1923-1937 (sub-head G);

(b) Allowances and gratuities under the same Acts (sub-head H);

(c) Service pensions under the Military Service Pensions Acts, 1924-1934 (sub-head K);

(d) Pensions and gratuities under the Defence Forces Pensions Scheme, 1937 (sub-head L);

(e) Pensions and allowances under the Connaught Rangers Pensions Act, 1936 (sub-head O).

The total statutory liability under those various Acts—excluding a sum of £300 for educational expenditure—is estimated to cost £562,770 during the financial year, but in order to appreciate the significance of those figures it is necessary to distinguish between—

(a) Awards actually under payment;

(b) Awards that may be made during the financial year;

(c) The arrears of pensions inherent in some of the awards that may be made during the year;

(d) Non-recurring awards, such as gratuities.

The Awards actually under payment to date in accordance with Statutes passed by the Oireachtas are:—

					£
(a)	425	Pensions under the	1923	Act costing	24,540
(b)	136	Allowances,,	1923	,,	6,134
(c)	113	Pensions ,,	1927	,,	10,934
(d)	96	Allowances,,	1927	,,	3,001
(e)	430	Pensions,,	1932	,,	41,599
(f)	164	Allowances,,	1932	,,	5,701
(g)	63	Pensions,,	1937	,,	3,253
(h)	15	Allowances,,	1937	,,	2,780
(i)	3,187	Pensions,,	1924	,,	152,512
(j)	6,170	Pensions,,	1934	,,	191,896
(k)	26	Pensions,,	1932	Act (Retired Pay) costing	1,066
(l)	37	Pensions,,	1936	Act (Connaught Rangers) costing	1,119
Total: 10,862 Awards under the 8 Acts, costing	£444,535

In addition to those 10,862 Awards, costing £444,615, the Estimate provides for new awards as follows:—

					£
(a)	30	Pensions	under the	1932 Act costing	3,000
(b)	26	Allowances	,,	1932,,	908
(c)	57	Pensions	,,	1937,,	3,199
(d)	65	Allowances	,,	1937,,	1,300
(e)	13	Pensions	,,	1924,,	614
(f)	1,146	Pensions	,,	1934,,	23,036
(g)	48	Pensions	,,	1932,,(Retired Pay)	3,578
(h)	1	Pension	,,	1936,,(Connaught Rangers)	47
Total: 1,386 awards during the coming year under 6 Acts, costing	£35,682

Certain of the 1,386 awards carry, however, with them arrears of pensions, and the arrears for which the Estimate provide are:—

			£
Under the	1932 Act for	Pensions	5,500
,,	1932,,	Allowances	1,285
,,	1937,,	Pensions	2,931
,,	1937,,	Allowances	1,467
,,	1934,,	Pensions	94,500
	Total Arrears	£105,683

This £105,683 is, of course, non-recurring. Another non-recurring item included in the Estimate is the award of gratuities as distinct from pensions or allowances, and the gratuities provided for are:—

	£
Under the 1927 Act	300
Under the 1932 Act	2,520
Under the 1932 Act (retired pay)	7,290
Total	£10,110

The cost of the main service of the Vote, the cost of awards, is, therefore, briefly as follows:—

	£
Awards under payment	444,535
New awards	35,682
Arrears following new awards	105,683
Gratuities	10,110
Total	£596,010

It will thus be seen that of the total £596,010, the sum of £115,793 is a non-recurring liability.

From this sum of £596,010 there have to be made deduction in respect of deaths, and abatements under Section 8 of the 1924 Act and Section 20 of the 1934 Act in respect of pensioners being in receipt of remuneration, other pensions or allowances payable out of public moneys. On foot of such abatements, a sum of £28,000 is estimated to be saved, and another sum of £5,240 is expected not to fall for payment owing to casualties during the year. Hence from the £596,010 we deduct £33,240 and get as the net cost of awards the sum of £562,770, of which the sum of £446,977 may be regarded as a recurring item of annual expenditure.

General Mulcahy

Can the Minister say how many applicants with only 1916 service are still without having their pension cases decided, and when he hopes to be in a position to have this matter cleared up? I should also like to ask who is the referee appearing for the first time in sub-head E?

Mr. Aiken

In regard to the referee, up to recently we had a judge, and then another gentleman with long legal standing, a barrister for 20 or 30 years, was appointed as referee. In regard to the 1916 pensions, my recollection of the last time I was speaking to some of the referee staff is that there are very few clear 1916 cases outstanding. There is a number in whose cases there is a dispute as to service, but practically speaking, I think 99.9 of the 1916 cases have been cleared up. Some cases are still outstanding owing to a dispute over service.

Mr. Corish

I want to take this opportunity of complaining about the length of time that the claims of some people have been held up. These are claims that ought to have been considered long before now. I have in mind one particular case, that of a man living in Wexford. I will not mention the name, but he has been living in Wexford for the past four or five years, and before he came there he fought in Northern Ireland under the present Minister. In consequence of having been born in Northern Ireland, this man is not eligible to draw unemployment assistance, and is not eligible for any work under the rotational scheme of employment. The result is that he has had very bad health. He has been in a mental hospital because he could see nothing but starvation facing himself, his wife and his family of six children. I drew the Minister's attention to his case as far back as 1935, and nothing has yet been done. I also brought his case to the notice of the Minister for Industry and Commerce with a view to seeing if anything could be done to enable him to draw unemployment assistance, but, under the Act, nothing can be done. This man with a wife and six children is at present in receipt of 10/- or 12/- a week home help, and I think that is a disgraceful way to have a man who gave the best years of his life fighting for his country. I brought the man's name before the Minister and he promised to give the matter his attention, but, although that is three years ago now, nothing has been done.

Mr. O'Neill

There seems to be a widespread complaint with regard to the treatment of some of the 1916 men. The Minister will tell us that all these cases are taken in rotation, but I think it would be the wish of everybody in the House that the cases of men connected with the 1916 movement should be taken out and attended to as quickly as possible. Will the Minister give us an assurance that that will be done? The case raised by Deputy Corish is only one of many, and I believe that, in the City of Dublin, there are some men who were in the 1916 movement in very penurious circumstances. These cases ought to be taken out at once. It is a great reflection on a national Government that these men should be allowed to suffer the hardships they are suffering. Many other cases in which there was no real urgency have been decided, and I think it is a national stain upon us that these men should have to continue living as they are living at present.

Captain Giles

I also wish to protest against the delay in dealing with claims. So far as my county is concerned, I do not think there are six or eight men who have got pensions under the present Government. While dozens of men have been brought up in the last two or three years, not one case has been passed. They are brought before the board and they hear nothing further for two or three years. I ask the Minister to deal with these cases as soon as possible because many of these men are in want and misery. Some of them have got newly-divided farms, and, if they got the arrears of pension due to them, it would be a great help to them.

I think this whole matter of Army pensions should be dealt with more speedily. We know that there are at present 50,000 applications for pensions and the Minister and those of us who took part in the fight know that we had not got 10,000 men in the fight, so that at least 40,000 of these applications are bogus and should have been thrown out long ago. I did not expect them to be dealt with up to the last general election, but the Government have now four years in which to carry on and to get these 40,000 bogus claims out of the way so that the remaining claims, which should be considered, could be dealt with more speedily. These bogus claims are holding up consideration of the genuine claims, and I think the Minister should throw them out of the way, because it is not good enough to have Old Republican Army men in hunger to-day because of these bogus claims.

In my county, we have a strong complaint in this respect. There is no reason why the county should not be dealt with speedily because we have the whole Republican movement united there, with both sides working to get the genuine claims through and to see that no bogus claims get through. There is no reason why they should not have dealt with every man there already, because we have a perfect committee working in the county. The Minister should have more confidence in the officers who are dealing with the cases in the different counties. If the Minister would get the board to accept the advice of these men who are in charge of the different counties and who are to-day volunteering to see justice done to all men, we would not have these old I.R.A. men hungry to-day. Last year, I raised the case of a genuine applicant. He was a man with very good service and I mentioned that he was in hunger and misery. I am sorry to say that, not two weeks afterwards, that man died in absolute want. He dropped in the field from neglect and hunger. He was entitled to a pension, and if he had got it a few weeks earlier, he would be alive to-day.

The Minister will have to take more responsibility for seeing that the board does its work more speedily. There are plenty of men on the board to deal with these cases more quickly, because, if we are going to carry on as we are, our generation and the next generation will be gone before the board will have done its work. I think it is really a disgrace, because there are only 10,000 or perhaps 8,000 applicants genuinely entitled to pensions, and four years should be sufficient to deal with them. The Minister should get his coat off and see that these men get the pensions to which they are entitled before they come to old age or before they are dead. A good many of them will be gone before their cases are considered at all under present conditions. It is a disgrace that the one little band of men who succeeded in wresting our country from the foreign invader should be left as they are. I feel that it is a matter for shame for all of us. We should have got these cases dealt with satisfactorily long ago, and one would think that the genuine cases, the very small body of men who fought in that movement, would get more consideration from an Irish Parliament and an Irish Government.

I ask the Minister, although it is fairly late, to get those genuine cases dealt with by taking the bogus claims out of the way. He is making no effort to get these bogus claims out of the way, and the genuine cases are being kept waiting and waiting in the expectation that something is going to come. If I were Minister I would tell these bogus applicants that they are not going to get pensions as they are not entitled to them. If that were done we could easily deal with the men who are entitled to pensions. The Government have now three or four years of power to look forward to, and they need not be afraid of a general election. Let them get these bogus cases out of the way, and, if these men have sore heads, they will forget their sore heads inside four years.

Mr. Aiken

I want to say to Deputy Corish that it is impossible for me to recollect individual cases.

Mr. Corish

If I send particulars of the case to the Minister will he give it special consideration?

Mr. Aiken

After three years, it is impossible for me to recollect individual cases because I get such numbers of them every day. Generally speaking, however, the referee and his board are doing their utmost to deal with all the clear cases. They have already dealt with 6,100 such cases and we hope, in the coming year, to deal with another, 1,100 or 1,200 cases. If those were dealt with, I think that all the clear cases would be finished Deputy Giles says:—

"Why not throw out all the baseless claims;"

but the position is that the referee cannot refuse to hear a man who makes a prima facie case. It is a most difficult job. I believe the referee and the board have done a very difficult job over the last three or four years in dealing with all these cases. At the beginning they had great difficulty in getting local committees going in certain areas, to give them the evidence upon which they could rely. Many of those difficulties have been got over and a greater speed is being maintained at the moment. I am satisfied that, in another year, practically all the clear cases for pension will have been cleared up. It may take some time afterwards to adjudicate on the border line cases. Deputy Corish's applicant may be a border line case and one in which the referee is not satisfied that he is entitled to a pension. If that is the position, it does not matter what his merits as an individual may be or what his individual financial circumstances may be, the referee cannot give him a pension.

Now, in regard to the 1916 men being in a penniless condition, all that I can do as Minister for Defence, or all that the referee can do as referee, is to administer the Acts that have been passed by the Oireachtas. Under those Acts, the 1916 men are getting what they are entitled to. You cannot guarantee that, by means of the allowances under those Acts alone, certain men who gave excellent service to the country will be above the poverty line in all circumstances. I think that the action of the State, in providing allowances for those who had active service, will have to be supplemented and supported by local benevolent committees in the various battalion or company areas, committees who will chip in and help old comrades who happen to be in distress. If the State were to do that, it would cost an enormous sum of money, because what the State gives to one individual it must give to every individual in the country who has a like claim.

It would be difficult in our particular circumstances, because we have to advert to our peculiar history over the last 20 years, and it would be impossible to have a national benevolent organisation on a national scale. If the Government gave a grant to a national benevolent organisation, it could not hope to meet all the claims that would be made upon it and I am afraid it would cause ructions by reason of the claims that would be turned down. The only people who can really help the old Volunteers along the lines of a benevolent organisation are the people who compose smaller units. I think the old I.R.A. men throughout the country should have their own battalion benevolent fund into which the various pensioners, or the various old I.R.A. men, or citizens who wanted to show their regard for old I.R.A. men, would pay a certain sum of money, small or large, each year, and that would go to help the worst cases. It is the only way I can see in which especially hard cases of old I.R.A. men can be dealt with.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Mar 1939