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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 May 1939

Vol. 75 No. 20

Supplementary Estimate. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £10 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Riaghaltais Aiteamhail agus Sláinte Poiblidhe, maraon le Deontaisí agus Costaisí eile a bhaineann le Tógáil Tithe, Deontaisí d'Udaráis Aitiúla, Ildeontaisí Ilghnéitheacha agus deontaisí i gCabhair, agus muirearacha áirithe mar gheall ar Ospidéil.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities, Sundry Miscellaneous Grants and Grants-in-Aid, and certain charges connected with Hospitals.

The first item of the Estimate makes provision for expenses that may arise under the Milk and Dairies Act, 1935, in connection with the function of the Minister as licensing authority under the special designations regulations which provide that milk may be sold under certain designations in accordance with the licence granted by the Minister.

The second item of the Estimate is rendered necessary by the passing of the Housing Act of this year. The Housing Act extended the period for the payment of the housing grants in urban areas up to the 1st April, 1939, and, in rural areas, to the 1st April, 1940. The main Estimate for the Department was passed before the Act was passed. Consequently, the Supplementary Estimate had to be introduced.

There are a few points to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention. I agree, of course, with the Milk and Dairies Act in so far as it is improving the conditions under which milk and milk products are being produced in the country, but some very grave hardships are arising out of the enforcement of the Act. There have been people, living a mile or two from a town, who have been producing milk under fairly good conditions, but not, perhaps, up to the standard required. They may have seven, eight, nine, ten or 15 cows. Under this Act they have been practically put out of business completely. I would like to know from the Minister if he is taking any steps to accommodate these people who are being put out of business by authorising the Agricultural Credit Corporation to extend loan facilities to them for the establishment of suitable houses for cattle. I know several cases all over the country where a family was working hard, not making very much money, and the cowsheds had not suitable floors or a suitable lighting system. The result was that they were condemned, and these poor unfortunate people were pushed out of business if they were not able to build or reconstruct the out-offices so as to bring them to the required standard. I agree that it is very suitable and very essential that a high standard should be required, but in a case like that some facilities should be made available for these farmers in order to enable them to reconstruct their out-offices. They should not be put out of business completely.

On the question of housing, a rather strange situation has developed all over the country regarding the reconstruction grants. This work of the reconstruction of houses is one of the things that I have always approved under the Fianna Fáil Administration. It is an admirable work, as I told the Minister here on former occasions. During the past two or three years, however, the system has grown up so that a reconstruction estimate must be round £80 or £90 before the £40 grant will be paid. That, I think, is unfair. It is unfair in the sense that if I was not able to reconstruct my house until this year I am penalised to the extent of £10 or £15, or maybe £20. That was not the case in the early stages. I know of hundreds of cases in the County Longford where, say, the reconstruction estimate was £50. In these cases the grant given is not more than £25 or £30. During the first couple of years, if the reconstruction estimate was, say, £53, the full £40 was given by way of grant. There is no doubt that in recent years the cost of building materials has increased considerably. When one takes into account the provisions of the Conditions of Employment Act and other things, the cost of reconstructing a house may be said to have considerably increased in late years. The reconstruction of houses is an eminently desirable work, and it is unfair, I submit, to people who are anxious to undertake it that they should be penalised by reducing the amount of the grant.

I also wish to complain about the delay there is in making payments. In several counties, particularly in the counties of Longford and Roscommon and in portions of Leitrim and Westmeath, large numbers of houses have been completed and not inspected. I am of the opinion that the inspection system is too cumbersome. I think it should be eased somewhat, and that the inspections should be expedited. The county council officials—county surveyors and assistant county surveyors—could be asked to take part in this inspection work if the Department of Local Government so desired it, and without very much expense, if any.

On the question of new houses I have not much to say except that I think two points should be attended to. In the first place, I think the valuation should not be kept at £25, as at present. It should be extended to £35 or £40. Of course, I know the Minister will argue that if he extended it to £45 there would still be a border-line case of £45 1s. that would debar some applicant. I am aware of that, but still I think that if the valuation were extended to the figure I urge, the additional money spent would be devoted to a most worthy object. It would lead to an improvement in the health of the people. It would be far better to have money spent in that direction than in many others that I need not go into.

With regard to the floor space of houses, there are hundreds of farmers all over the country who, because the floor space of the old ramshackle houses they occupy exceeds a certain figure, are not eligible for grants. Their houses are really more in need of reconstruction than some of the tidy, compact houses that qualify for a grant. You have many a poor farmer who is in a far worse position financially than his neighbour who has a three or a four-roomed house, and because the floor space of his house exceeds a certain limit he cannot get the grant. That is under a regulation made by the Minister which is like the regulation at the Curragh Camp of which the old sergeant-major said that in his opinion regulations were only made to be broken. If the Minister so desired it, he could keep the regulation there to suit his purpose, and change it when he was perfectly satisfied that it would suit a better purpose. In these circumstances, I think that the method of measurement could be altered under the regulation without amending the Act. If that were done it would assist a large number of people all over the country to provide themselves with better living conditions in their homes.

I quite admit that these reconstruction grants have done much to improve the housing conditions of the people. I gladly pay tribute to the Department and the Government for their services and activities in that direction. In conclusion, I hope that the Minister will see his way to make the few alterations I have suggested. In the first place, I hope he will increase the valuation to the figure I have mentioned; secondly, that where the reconstruction estimate is £50 and over, the full £40 grant will be given, and, thirdly, that an alteration will be made in the method of calculating floor space. If this last alteration were made it would mean that a large number of houses, badly in need of reconstruction, would come within the terms of the regulation, and that the occupiers would qualify for the payment of grants.

On this Estimate I would ask the Ministers responsible to see that Sections 19 and 20 of the Milk and Dairies Act are complied with, so that milk coming into Dublin will be subject to the same inspection as milk produced in Dublin for Dublin consumption. It was one of the inequities of that Act to permit milk to come into Dublin that was not subject to inspection at the source of production. For instance, under the Dairy Produce Act of 1924 a creamery was permitted to register as a dairy, or as a dairy premises. Secondly, the creamery could buy milk from any producer. No inspection regarding the production of that milk went beyond the creamery premises, while, in the case of milk sold that did not pass through a creamery, the premises in which the cows were housed and in which the milk cans and milk were stored were all subject to very rigid inspection. I think it is a little breeze of that kind that has hit General MacEoin's constituents, for whom he is asking for an easing off now. If the produce to which he has referred is going to be sold locally, it is a local matter, but if it is coming to the City of Dublin the milk produced in the country should be put on an equal footing with that produced in Dublin. Contamination from outside counties is no less dangerous to the health of the citizens of Dublin than contamination from milk produced in Dublin.

With regard to the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts, I think we already had a Bill which pretty well covered the whole field in regard to this matter, and I do not propose to go into an exhaustive discussion of it now, particularly as the Minister for Local Government is not here and it would hardly be fair to ask another Minister to make promises for him or to honour promises which he has made. However, I will put the question, and I am sure that if the Minister in charge of this Vote has any information on it he will let us have it. I think the Minister for Local Government on that occasion promised that he would bring in a Housing Bill at an early date. I should like to know from the Minister when he is replying if he can throw any light on that matter. The Minister for Local Government said on the occasion to which I am referring that he had it from people in the building trade that the grants under those Acts were not so important in the encouragement of building as were funds to help purchasers to purchase their houses, in other words, State loans. I agree with that to a large extent, but it must be remembered that those grants have obtained for a number of years, and have become part and parcel of the payment for houses. While there was no specific allowance to a purchaser who was buying one of those houses for which the builder had got grants, yet the price was regulated on the understanding that a grant had been given. The houses were valued down by the amount of the grant. Valuers called in to make valuations under the Small Dwellings Acts, or in connection with advances by insurance companies, made their valuations on the basis of an understanding that a grant had been given, and so much was taken off the market value of those houses. There is a big discrepancy at the moment, when those grants are not available. The houses are valued on the same basis as heretofore, and it leaves a very big gap between the deposits which purchasers pay and the loans they get on percentages.

I am not absolutely positive about this, but my recollection is that the Minister for Local Government promised us a Bill making provision for loans to help purchasers to purchase their houses. I do not know whether it came from the Minister, but there was some suggestion here about the encouragement of existing building societies or the creation of national building societies which might get some initial capital from the Government. If my recollection is correct as to what was foreshadowed by the Minister, I should be glad to know—and the building trade in Dublin as well as those anxious to purchase their own homes in Dublin and elsewhere would also be glad to know—whether any advance has been made in that regard. Speaking with some knowledge of the building trade here, I am quite satisfied that nothing has contributed so much to the dislocation of that trade as the fact that loans are not available. With the exception of big housing contracts placed by the Dublin Corporation, there is practically no building going on in or around the City of Dublin at the present time. It is not that saturation point has been reached; it is not that there are not people looking for houses who are prepared to pay from 15 to 25 or 30 per cent. of the value of the houses, it is because of the fact that, after the 15, 25 or 30 per cent. has been paid by intending purchasers. the balance cannot be got on loan. It is to fill that want that I understand the Minister was to devise machinery either to finance directly the Small Dwellings Acts and to put them moving again, or to provide moneys to be administered through the building societies or through some machinery which he was going to set up. It is immaterial which way it would be done.

This is a Supplementary Estimate—in fact, a token Vote for £10. It is unprecedented to get down to fundamental questions on such a Vote. It is, of course, legitimate to ask questions such as the Deputy purports to ask, but he should not embark on a detailed discussion on the efficiency of present arrangements.

I am sorry if I have gone into the matter more deeply than is usual on those occasions.

It is attributable to the knowledge and experience and enthusiasm of the Deputy.

I thank you for the compliment. I was not going to tax it to full capacity at the moment, I can assure you. As a matter of fact, I think it was a pity that you rose so soon. I had just finished in regard to the matter.

It is to be regretted that the Chair did not rise sooner.

Either sooner or not so soon—one or the other. In any case, we are agreed that it is time to stop. I should be glad if the Minister would let us have any information which is at his disposal in regard to this matter.

There is just one matter to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. It arises out of the Milk and Dairies Act. First of all, I want it to be quite clear that I do not for a moment suggest that anything should be done to disimprove the conditions of the Act. Nevertheless, a great deal of hardship has been occasioned in rural areas, arising out of its operation. I wonder if the Minister could, after inquiry from the boards of health, formulate some scheme whereby this hardship could be removed. For instance, in many cases farmers who did not go in for selling milk retail obliged neighbours by letting them have milk for their household requirements. These farmers are unable in some cases to bring their cowsheds up to the requirements of the Act and should be permitted to sell small quantities of milk. It affects particularly the agricultural workers. I am sure the Minister has heard the complaint before now, but I thought I should bring it to his notice on this Supplementary Estimate; and I would be very glad if he would have inquiries made of the boards of health in order to have some machinery established to obviate this hardship.

I would like to ask the Minister a question regarding this Supplementary Estimate. I understand that it was the policy of the Minister's Department, in dealing with the allocation of houses, to ask the boards of health what rents they proposed to charge, and to ascertain the circumstances of the tenants, and then to approve—as they usually did—of the rents which the local authority proposed to fix. Recently a case has come to my notice, where the Kildare Board of Health erected 26 houses at Newbridge. They intended to charge the tenants 5/- per week rent—apart from additional charges in respect of water and electric light. They contracted with the tenants to allow them into the houses at 5/- per week; and, in fact, handed over the keys to the tenants. Then they intimated to the Department what they had done; and the Department—for the first time, so far as I know—wrote to the board of health and said they must fix a varying rent in these cases according to the circumstances of the tenant. The Department asked for statistics as to the income of the tenants, and got that information from the board of health; but the Department seems to have taken no notice of the circumstances of the tenant. In some cases the tenant was able to say that the income was, say, £3 per week, but the Department took no cognisance of the fact that seven persons were trying to live on the £3 weekly. A person in receipt of £3 weekly in income, and having to maintain seven persons on that sum, would be much worse off than the person with 30/- a week in income and having to maintain only two persons. On that occasion, the board of health replied that they did not propose to increase the rents beyond 5/-; and the Department retaliated by saying that, if they did not, the subsidy would be reduced from 60 per cent. to 15 per cent. I would like to know from the Minister whether this is a new departure on the part of his Department, and whether, in future, the Department is going to insist on some central policy of differential rents, which is what they did in this particular case. If the Minister's Department is going to adopt a policy of that kind, I am afraid that is going to add to the complications of the local authorities. I should like to know whether that is going to be the policy of the Department in regard to the fixation of rent, and whether—if the local authority does not carry out that policy—they will be penalised by the loss or reduction of the subsidy which they expected from State funds when they had built houses under the Housing Acts.

Mr. Boland

I did not expect that these points would be raised, as the main Estimate was only passed about three weeks ago and there was a Housing Bill a month ago. This Supplementary Estimate had to be introduced because the main Estimate was prepared before that Bill was passed. Consequently, I am not in a position to deal with these matters, which I did not expect. I understood that it was unlikely, unprecedented, that a general housing debate would take place on this Estimate. I did not expect these points to be raised and am not in a position to deal with them, but I will have the matters examined and communicate with the Deputies who raised them.

I am quite satisfied with that.

Question put and agreed to.
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