Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 May 1939

Vol. 76 No. 3

Vote 13—Civil Service Commission.

Mr. MacEntee

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £17,055 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Choimsiún na Stát-Sheirbhíse (Uimh. 5 de 1924, agus Uimh. 41 de 1926) agus an Choimisiúin um Cheapacháin Aitiúla (Uimh. 39 de 1926).

That a sum not exceeding £17,055 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Civil Service Commission (Nos. 5 of 1924 and 41 of 1926) and of the Local Appointments Commission (No. 39 of 1926).

General Mulcahy

The Minister for Education, speaking here the other day, indicated that teaching on the one hand and the Civil Service on the other were two employments in the country that were going to be completely closed. This is an Estimate that has risen from about £12,000 in 1931 to £25,000 over the last couple of years. I think we ought to have some statement from the Minister as to what are the circumstances that necessitate the maintenance of a staff for the Civil Service Commission at above the £20,000 figure from, say, the year 1936-1937. If what the Minister for Education says is anything like the truth, and goodness knows judging by the swollen figures in relation to staff in the various branches of the Civil Service, there ought to be a considerable amount of truth in it, it should be possible, substantially, to reduce the amount of money that the Civil Service Commission is costing. I would like the Minister to take the House into his confidence as to what he foresees in that particular line, and whether he thinks it is necessary to spend this sum of over £25,000 this year.

There is another matter that I would like to hear the Minister on, and that is what the Civil Service Commission is doing to see that the Irish language comes into any kind of systematic use in the Civil Service, either inter-departmentally or between the Civil Service and the public. We have already passed some money for a commission that is dealing with the use of Irish in the Civil Service. I would like to know from the Minister whether the Civil Service Commission, in addressing itself to its own work, is taking, in an increasing way, cognisance of the fact that it is the intention to do more of the Government work through the medium of Irish. Is it the Civil Service Commission that provides the machinery for carrying out the examinations that are required to be carried out periodically under the Gaeltacht Order? Will the Minister say what the system is for carrying out these examinations?

Mr. MacEntee

As to the need to make provision of the order set out here in the Estimate, I think that need still exists. The work of this commission does not grow lighter in proportion to a decrease in the number of civil servants who may have to be recruited in any one year. On the contrary, with the growing complexity of the services which are provided by the State, the difficulties in the way of recruitment become heavier, and, consequently, the duties of the Civil Service Commission become heavier. The Deputy knows that the staff of the Civil Service Commission is very largely a specialised one, and it would not be possible, simply because the number of recruitments made in one year as compared with another happened to show a decrease, to immediately take steps to reduce the staff of the Civil Service Commission. I think that the amount which is being provided this year will continue to be necessary because the main examinations are still to be held. There may be a slight reduction in the amount to be provided for examiners' fees and matters of that sort, but the whole-time permanent staff of the Civil Service Commission will continue to remain pretty constant at the present figure.

General Mulcahy

It is double what it was seven years ago.

Mr. MacEntee

That may be, but I have already tried to point out, when the Deputy was not in the House, this very important factor bearing on the cost of the Civil Service: that we inherited a very large number of civil servants, 90 per cent. I might say of the existing personnel, and what is more, we inherited scales of pay for those officers which were laid down by our predecessors: that those scales of pay are increasing scales, and that a very large part of the increase in the cost of the Civil Service now as compared with seven years ago is due, first of all, to the effect of those incremental scales, and, if the Deputy likes it, to the increase in the cost-of-living figure. The Deputy knows that in 1931-32 the cost-of-living figure had fallen to an abnormally low level, not merely here but everywhere through Europe: everywhere, one might say, throughout the world. Since then matters have improved economically. The Deputy might perhaps go this far with me in that regard, that the cost-of-living figure has risen here in just the same proportion as it has risen in Great Britain and throughout Europe—that is in those countries where the rise has been allowed to manifest itself in statistics.

General Mulcahy

Surely the Minister is not suggesting that the increase in the cost of the Civil Service Commission arises out of the increase in the salaries paid to the staff of the Civil Service Commission?

Mr. MacEntee

The increase in the cost of the Civil Service Commission arises, first of all, on account of the increase in the bonus drawn by every member of the staff of the Civil Service Commission; and, secondly, on account of the fact that the staffs of the Civil Service Commission are on incremental scales. Because of that, every year every member of that staff who does his work efficiently and zealously becomes automatically entitled to an increase in remuneration which, of course, manifests itself in the staff as a whole. On the other hand, I will say this, that the present Government are giving effect to the Civil Service Regulation Act, perhaps much more whole-heartedly than our predecessors did, and that there are more and more matters being referred to the Civil Service Commission because examination has shown that the law requires that to be done, and it is being done.

General Mulcahy

The members of the staff of the Civil Service Commission will be greatly surprised to know that their salaries have gone up by 100 per cent. in the last seven years.

Mr. MacEntee

They know, as well as the Deputy knows, that their salaries have gone up considerably within the past seven years. The Deputy knows that their remuneration has gone up automatically. Perhaps I should put it this way: that their remuneration has increased considerably over the last seven years, due to the increase in bonus and due, as the Deputy is aware, to the operation of the incremental scales laid down by the Administration of which the Deputy was a member. I am not to be taken as criticising those scales. I think they are fair and just scales, but we have to fulfil a contract which the previous Administration entered into with every officer in the Civil Service. The fulfilment of that contract—and the public had better be aware of it—will involve for a considerable number of years an annual increase in the cost of the Civil Service. We do not propose to break the contracts of service which we inherited, and, consequently, as I have said, the cost of administration is going up, and would go up even if no additional recruitment to the Civil Service had been made.

The Deputy asked me what was the function of the Civil Service Commission in regard to Irish, and what was the attitude taken up with regard to Irish. I may say that, in general, Irish is a compulsory subject in all open competitive examinations for admission to the general service and departmental grades, and in interview tests it is given a very strong preference. In written competitive examinations additional marks are allowed for answering, through Irish, examination papers in other subjects, and a candidate—as the Deputy I am sure is aware—must pass an oral test of a comparatively high standard before admission to the service. There the function of the Civil Service Commissioners in relation to Irish begins and ends. As the Deputy knows, the function of the Commissioners is to provide a regular means of recruitment for the Civil Service. That is the purpose of the Civil Service Commissioners. They are being asked more and more to conduct departmental tests for promotion. Again, in relation to promotion in the Civil Service preference is given for Irish, and in certain cases candidates will not be promoted who have not a competent knowledge of Irish. In regard to the enforcement of the Gaeltacht Orders, the examinations necessary to that end are conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners. The Commissioners hold periodical examinations in Irish, at convenient centres throughout the country. As a matter of fact, the latest examination was held in January of this year.

Vote put and agreed to.