asked the Minister for Agriculture if he will state whether there has been any arrangement made with the British Government regarding the export of live stock or other agricultural produce to Great Britain; and, if so, if he will state the terms of such agreement or agreements, and in particular if he will state if any arrangement has been made to secure to Éire farmers prices equivalent to those received by farmers in Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Export of Live Stock and Agricultural Produce.
Mr. Brennan
asked the Minister for Agriculture if he will state whether prior to the 1st September, 1939, any arrangements had been made with the British Government relating to the export of agricultural produce to Great Britain, and the quantities, shipment, and prices of such produce.
asked the Minister for Agriculture if he will state what arrangements have been made with the British Government regarding the export of fat cattle.
I propose to answer questions Nos. 24, 25 and 27 together. The position at the moment is that the situation arising from the operation of food control in Great Britain as it affects our produce has been the subject of informal discussions between representatives of the British Department concerned and of officers of my Department.
Deputies complain that they cannot hear the Minister.
I am doing my best. Provisional arrangements are under consideration by me for the regulation of the export of bacon and live pigs and dairy produce in order to fit in with the new arrangements which are to operate in Great Britain. No conclusion has so far been come to in regard to the arrangements to be made here for the regulation of the export of cattle and sheep. Arrangements have not been made with the British authorities as regards quantities and prices of any of the products mentioned. Representations in regard to prices of eggs and milk products have been made to the British Food Control Department and negotiations are still in progress.
Arising out of the Minister's reply I want to ask if he has made any representations to the British Government that if they want food supplies from this country it would be good business on their part to send us feeding stuffs such as maize which costs them approximately £l2 a ton, in exchange for which we would be prepared to send them bacon which costs about £112 a ton, and that if they do not send us food supplies to supplement the supplies we can get independent of Great Britain that we may find ourselves in the position of wishing to supply them with live stock and livestock products, but that we may be unable to produce them for want of the raw materials to feed pur animals?
Yes, that matter has been raised.
With regard to the matter of the control of prices and as to whether they are to be on a live-weight or dead-weight basis, does the Minister not know that the producers of live stock would prefer the business done in the market on a live-weight basis? Does the Minister understand that the present proposal is that the live stock is to be paid for on a dead-weight basis? What way would it be then? If the Minister makes an arrangement would it not be better to make it on a live-weight basis? The men could then get their money for the cattle immediately. There is another matter arising on this question. Does the Minister expect the Irish farmer to feed the British Army at the controlled price, because the British Army authorities can buy our beef at the controlled price whereas the British farmers have to give from 5/- to 7/- a cwt. more? Would the Minister take that into consideration? The British Army can be fed by the Irish farmers at 5/- to 7/- a cwt. less than the English farmer can supply it.
All the points mentioned by the Deputy have, I think, been raised and we all believe on this side that if we could sell our cattle on a live-weight basis it would be much better, but the Food Control Department of Great Britain takes the other view, so far anyhow.
Would the Minister tell us whether I am correct in saying that arrangements for the purchase of cattle do not apply to store cattle and only apply to those cattle which, in the judgment of the British graders, are fat cattle which is, in fact, stall-fed cattle?
Yes.
And that for the entire export of store cattle no such regulation applies and there is a free market.
The export of store cattle will not be controlled in the same way as fat cattle.
Mr. Brennan
Would the Minister say if the statement which was published by the Information Bureau some time ago on this matter is substantially correct, and is it in operation, or when will it be put into operation by the British Government against this country?
It is not in operation yet, and I do not know when it is proposed to put it into operation.
Is it proposed to control exports of store cattle?
Except in this respect. that a person exporting stores is not sure that some of them may not be picked out as fat cattle.
A person exporting stores may find himself in the position he was in in the economic war, that a certain number of them may be judged as fat cattle, but such a number would be microscopic and, in fact, the desideratum at the present moment is to secure from the British Government a pretty general undertaking that there will be a margin provided which will permit the bulk of our cattle to go across as stores and not be graded as fat cattle.
Mr. Brennan
Would the Minister inform the House whether agreement has yet been reached with the British Government on that particular matter?
No.
Mr. Brennan
So then there is no use in saying that a certain amount is going this way or that way. You have not reached an agreement.
We have not agreed with their proposals.
Mr. Brennan
But originally, according to a statement published by the Information Bureau, a certain arrangement was made. We will take it that that is substantially correct. Would the Minister say if any people concerned in the shipping of cattle or with farming generally were consulted before that decision was arrived at?
There was no arrangement.
Mr. Brennan
But the Information Bureau said there was an arrangement —definitely that there was an arrangement.
I do not think so.
On what date? Could the Deputy give us any particulars by which the publication could be traced?
Mr. Brennan
I cannot say on what date, but it was published in all the papers and the whole country has been agog about it.
The Deputy may be right, but anything supplied by my Department did not say there was a definite arrangement made.
Mr. Brennan
Am I right in stating that an arrangement was made but that interested people became so active about it you could not put it into operation?
That is quite untrue.
Is the House to understand that no trading arrangement with Britain in the matter of supplying Britain with agricultural produce has yet been made?
We were speaking about cattle so far.
Well, in regard to cattle?
Not with regard to cattle.
So that there is no truth in the rumour that the British are to pay a fixed price in England or in Britain or in Northern Ireland for our cattle?
That is what the British say they are going to do.
That is what they are actually doing.
The British proposed to pay a fixed price. They are paying a fixed price I believe now but, in addition to that, they proposed to have the cattle, when landed at a British port, consigned for slaughter to certain destinations in England and paid for there. That has not come into operation.
That is fat cattle?
Yes.
Are we agreeing to that?
No.
Can we not put up the case that we will sell the cattle at certain centres in Ireland and let them take them there and run the risk of being submarined? I can speak on this, if I have an opportunity, on the Adjournment, but I think it is condemning agriculture in this country to abject slavery and that the farmers and producers in this country will not put up with it from any Government.
This is question time, Deputy.
Will the Minister say if he has given any consideration to the desirability of setting up an export board in connection with the export of live stock and agricultural produce?
There will be export boards for certain things. There will be an export board for bacon and pigs. There will be an export board for dairy products. The question of one for cattle and sheep is under consideration but I do not know whether there will be an export board for them or not.
Will the Minister appoint farmers on these boards instead of cattle traders? Licences were issued before and who got the licences? Can we farmers have advisory committees?
Will the Minister undertake, as head of his Department, that he will oppose as strongly as he possibly can any arrangement by which fat cattle going out of this country are sold on a dead-weight basis?
Certainly. We will oppose it as far as we possibly can.
Will the Minister refuse to let the cattle out? If you laugh at that matter, England has won already. The only way to get your terms is to stand out and fight for them—refuse to give the cattle. You robbed the farmers for the last six years; give them something now.
Will the Minister say if any proposals or any suggestions have been made by his Department as to how this matter should be handled?
Yes.
What are the suggestions?
We propose that they should buy the cattle on a live-weight basis either at this port or the port of landing.
I think there should be no alternative. I suggest that the Minister should not agree to any alternative. They ought to be bought live-weight at our port. This is a matter of extreme importance. The Minister, I am certain, realises that and I am sure he appreciates the fact that there is great anxiety throughout the country on this matter. I think he must, be very strong in insisting that the cattle must be bought live-weight on our side.
I would like Deputies to consider that whether they are bought live-weight in, say, Dublin or in Birkenhead will not make any difference to the producer because, whether they are exported by our exporters or imported by their importers, naturally, the cost of freightage will be taken into account.
Mr. Morrissey
Supposing they were sunk going across?
All that will have to be taken into account.