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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Nov 1939

Vol. 77 No. 8

Resolution No. 9—General (resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Resolution:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance—(Minister for Finance).

In introducing his Budget statement yesterday the new Minister for Finance prefaced his remarks by a quotation from the closing paragraph of his predecessor's speech last summer pointing out the serious situation that this country would have to face if a European war should break out. The words were eloquent as we might expect—not as unctuous as we expect from the present Minister—and they were true. I might go on and just continue the quotation to include a sentence which the Minister seems to have taken very much to heart. "We shall have to tax what we can and where we can." I think the Minister might have taken that as the text of the allocution that we heard from him yesterday. Apparently the Minister, in quoting his predecessor, was under the impression that he was offering some kind of excuse for what he called the serious Budget that he was introducing. Apparently all the other Budgets that have been introduced were mere bagatelles so far as imposing burdens on the people were concerned. He looked upon that statement of his predecessor's as an excuse. In reality, it is a condemnation. It is a condemnation because it is a proof that the Ministers have walked into this position with their eyes fully open. Knowing the situation that threatened this country, they took no steps to make the burden lighter on the people. On the contrary they continued the policy of extravagance that even before this had made the burdens they put on the people practically intolerable. Now, notwithstanding the foresight shown by some of their members they have added to these burdens. The Minister must admit again that they had plenty of notice of this. For we were assured by the Taoiseach that one of the principal reasons practically now two years ago why he entered into negotiations with the British Government was that he did foresee the European conflict. There is no question then of their not foreseeing the European conflict at that time; at least the Government were aware of it, so much so that they had determined to abandon the policy they had so obstinately stuck to for a number of years.

What steps has the Government taken in the last few years to put this country into a position to meet the heavy charges that would fall on the ordinary individual if such a conflict were to break out? Instead of, as I say, taking steps to put the country into a position to meet a situation of that kind they have done the very opposite. Instead of trying to save where money could be saved, they have deliberately embarked on a policy of expenditure the end of which no man can see. And that was their contribution notwithstanding the foresight that the Taoiseach had two years ago and notwithstanding the foresight that the ex-Minister for Finance had six months ago. What have we had? Instead of an effort to help this country to face that situation we have had play-acting at an extensive rate. Nothing else. What has been the Government's contribution to meet that situation? Further, wilder and more unjustifiable extravagance. That is all they have done. The only things they have done to meet the crisis are piling up taxation; assuming new obligations—the purpose of these I will discuss in a moment—and playing musical chairs with the Ministers. These are their sole contributions to prove to the country that they were doing something to meet the crisis. These were the only things that they could think of. I wonder what the present Minister for Finance was doing for two weeks in the Department of Education? Not getting education in finance anyway.

The Minister for Finance, in this statement of his predecessor, makes out an excuse for the present action of the Government. He says: "Those who heard these words at that time cannot be surprised at the announcement that a Supplementary Budget would be introduced to-day." What steps did the Government take to remove the necessity for such a Supplementary Budget? Not one. Not in any portion of the policy of the Government is there the slightest indication that even now they have woke up to the seriousness of the financial situation and the economic situation that faces this country. It is, I admit, essential that we should preserve our policy of neutrality. Whatever views we ourselves may have as to the rights and wrongs of the present European situation, and some of us have strong views, there is no other practical alternative to the policy of neutrality. But neutrality is not going to save the country if this is the type of Government we are to get. A country and a nation can collapse as the result of invasion or they can equally collapse as the result of incompetence on the part of those responsible for the government of the nation.

The Government since it came into office has given repeated proofs of that incompetency. But I doubt if it has given much greater proof of its incompetency than in the matter of the mismanagement of the finances of this country in the last two years and especially so in the last six months. Again and again protests have been made against the ruthless policy of imposing tax after tax, without any reference whatever to the taxable capacity of the people. Remember when the Minister's predecessor was introducing his Budget last May that some of us pointed out that a future would have to be faced in which the people would be less in a position to meet taxation, that there would be less capacity to pay and that there would be a diminishing return from taxation. The then Minister himself pointed that out. Had that any effect on his colleagues? I presume that that Minister when Minister for Finance tried as well as he could to impress upon his colleagues what he considered the frightful situation that was threatening this country. If he did—and I presume from his statement he did—it was a warning not merely to the country but it was a warning to the Government. But it had precious little effect on the Government in any serious effort at economy.

I admit economies have been made, but not on the immense expenditure where millions were being thrown away without any appreciable result so far as this country is concerned. But they did economies. I was anxious to bring into the House for the purposes of this debate a copy of one of the three Dublin newspapers that it had been customary to send to the Leader of the Opposition— total cost, 4d. per day. I had not brought my own copy. But I found an economy had been effected. I could not get this newspaper from the Library because the copy there was in use. Such are the economies effected. But the Minister for Defence was busy seeing that economies were effected at the time when there was a threatened increase of unemployment and at the time when the Government had a policy of heaping extra burdens in connection with the black-out. I must say that the black-out portion of the Government's policy is about as clear as anything else. There is a black-out in nearly everything so far as the clarity of the Government's policy is concerned. But at the time when in various ways burden after burden of expenditure was being piled on to the unfortunate citizen, that was the time for Ministers to reconsider their policy of extravagance. Instead they choose "to tax where they can and what they can," to use the words of the Minister's predecessor.

Yesterday the Minister drew our attention to the activities of his Economy Committee, and we were surprised to learn that in the main administrative Departments there were practically no economies to be effected, at least so far as the report goes up to the present. Yesterday, and when we were last discussing those serious financial matters, the Leader of the Opposition indicated where there had been increases in expenditure in administrative Departments and where there could be economies, but there was no hint from the Minister that any effort, any really effective effort, was being made in that direction, or that in fact it was engaging—if the word is not a contradiction in terms with the present Minister—the "active" attention of the Minister. He did indicate a number of places, items, headings, where they hoped to effect economies amounting to £400,000. The Minister and the committee had some method of arriving at that £400,000. It must have been come to as an addition of the sums under each of the five headings that he gave. I asked him to facilitate the House by telling us what was the sum that was estimated to be saved under each heading. He refused, and still the information must be at his disposal, because I do not see how he could arrive at £400,000 saving under five headings unless he knew the estimated saving under each heading. Therefore, we must take it for granted that, at a time when everybody knows and even the Government probably knows there is a prospect of increased unemployment in this country, the only places they can have economies are the places where the Government is giving work to the ordinary individual who would otherwise be out of employment. What are they? One is Land Commission expenditure—generally the improvement of estates. That work apparently is to be economised. The economy is not to be in Government Departments, not in this extraordinary, undefended expenditure on the Army, but in the ordinary labour that the Government employs for the improvement of estates, thereby helping to diminish at all events the problem of unemployment. The other items on which economies are to be effected are unemployment assistance, employment schemes, in which already last May there was a foreshadowing of economy, housing expenditure, draws on the Local Loans Fund. At a time when unemployment is increasing, the only place the Government can think of economies is in the giving of work to the ordinary labourer.

The Minister for Supplies speaking last night said that to meet the present situation there were two courses open, economy or taxation, and the Government were compelled to take the second course, taxation. Of course, as usual he tried to cloak himself, as the Government always tries to cloak itself, behind the suggestion that any demand for economy means economy in the social services. Is it not time, after repeated statements from different parts of the House, that that pretence and that defence should be dropped? There are other places than the social services in which economies could be effected. When the Ministers come forward and argue that any demand for economy means economy in the social services, it is because they have no case to put up against the plea for economics where economies could be effected without any attack on the social services.

The Minister, in a portion of his speech—one of the occasions on which he was inclined to be eloquent—spoke of the sacrifices that this country would willingly face for preserving its independence, for preserving its neutrality, but what the Minister did not do, and what no Minister has done up to the present, is to show in any way which would convince any reasonable man that their measures and their expenditure have contributed one iota towards securing greater safety for this country's independence, or towards the better preserving of our neutrality.

Take the various schemes of vast expenditure in which the Government has indulged in the last 12 months; take this immense increase of expenditure on the Army, the end of which, as I say, no man can foresee; take the black-out impositions which have been put on public bodies, on the Government itself, on private individuals and on industrial concerns. Does anybody pretend that either of those two classes of expenditure has contributed one iota to the aims which were referred to yesterday by the Tánaiste? Has either of them added a bit to our safety? Does the Minister think that this increase in the Army will put us in a better position to withstand an invasion by a foreign power if that foreign power can come to the shores of this country? He knows very well it cannot, and he practically confessed it in his speech yesterday. He knows there is no justification for that vast expenditure; that it does not help our independence or the keeping of our independence, and that it does not help us to preserve our neutrality. Economies can be effected in the ordinary manual labour given by the Government, but they cannot be effected in Government Departments, and no voice, apparently, is to be raised against the squandering of money on useless projects of the kind for which the Government stands and which the Government sponsors. That is the situation we are facing. The Government's only idea of facing a crisis like the present European crisis, their only conception of convincing the public that they are doing something, is the spending of money. Because of that outlook the people are asked to bear heavy burdens in addition to the intolerable burdens which had already been imposed on them. This is not the first Budget nor, with all respect to the Minister, is it the first serious Budget. There were other serious Budgets, and there were other heavy burdens put on the people. These are only additions to those other intolerable burdens which the Minister and his predecessor and the Government as a whole have heaped upon the people from time to time. To meet what? To meet a crisis in the very opposite way to the way in which they ought to meet it.

The Ministers confessed—every one of them who has dealt with the subject confessed in one way or another—that apart altogether from taxation the very coming of the war must place heavy burdens on the ordinary people of this country. What is their method of dealing with that? It is not by revising their policy; it is not by seeing whether there is any real reason for this immense expenditure in which they are indulging. That is not their method. Their method is: "Well, if burdens are being piled on we had better take our share in the piling on." At a time when they know well—we have it in the words of the Ministers themselves—that the people are pushed to the limit so far as their taxation capacity is concerned, that is the time that they chose to put on new taxes. At a time when the price of every commodity has gone up, most of them at any rate, that is the time they chose to increase these prices still further. I have here a cutting from—I dare not call it the official organ of the Party opposite, but, shall I put it this way?—what is not the official organ of the Party—the Irish Press, and the date is 8th November, 1839. I believe, strange as it may appear, that the information is correct.

It must be 100 years out of date.

Like most of the stuff in the Irish Press——

The paper was not in existence in 1839.

What a clever Minister we have? Is it not marvellously clever of the Minister? It is just like his colleague——

Give us your 100 years old statistics.

Here are the statistics.

But that is what you said; you mentioned 1839.

The year of the big wind.

Yesterday the Minister's colleague got out of his statement about having an eight months' sugar supply from our own resources by saying "All I said was a supply of about eight months," and he said he was misrepresented when a Deputy from these benches declared that he had mentioned eight months. I have here a statement with regard to prices and an indication of the extent to which they have gone up.

For what year?

I presume this is a serious Budget. I confess I never could think of the Minister as a serious Minister for Finance, nor has the country ever thought of him as a serious Minister for Finance. We looked upon his appointment as a proof that the Taoiseach did not want any Minister for Finance. This newspaper statement sets out that flour has gone up 4d. a stone.

Can we have the date?

Might I ask the Minister to have some little respect, at least for the House? I do not expect it, however. The newspaper states:— Flour, 4d. a stone extra; rice, 2d. per lb.; sugar, 1½d. per lb.; sausages and puddings, 2d. per lb.; tinned salmon, 3d. or 4d. per lb.; tinned fruit, 3d. per lb.; green peas, dried, 3d. and 5d. per packet; tinned peas, ½d. to 1½d. per tin; sauce, 1d. per bottle; tinned soups, 1d. per tin; muscatel raisins, 10d. per lb., the present price being 2/- per lb.; currants, 1d. per lb.; sultanas, 1d. per lb.; flake meal, in packet, £10 per ton; eggs, 9d. per dozen— that is what they are given here as; jams, 1½d. to 3d. per lb.; candied peel, 2d. per lb.; crystallised cherries, 2d. per lb.; Scotch whiskey, 6d. per bottle. These are all increases and this is the time that the Government determine that the further heavy increase they will put on will not be noticed.

May I interrupt the Deputy? The Deputy stated that he was quoting from a paper dated 1839. Did I hear it incorrectly, or am I correct in my statement?

The Minister knows well that the Irish Press was not published until they pinched Irish moneys from the United States and he knows that the Dáil bonds were not issued in 1839.

That was the year the Deputy mentioned and he woke up when I told him.

I do not think anything will wake the Minister up at his job.

The Dáil is pretty well awake to-day, and it was awake yesterday.

I am glad to hear it. It is about time the Dáil did wake up to what you are doing.

The Deputy has not yet answered my question as to the year he mentioned.

Surely there is some limit to Ministerial stupidity? Apparently the Minister in charge of finance thinks there is not.

Was I wrong as to the year the Deputy mentioned—did I misinterpret the Deputy's statement?

I do not mind whether the Minister was right or wrong.

The Deputy is 100 years out of date.

What clever Ministers we have! This is the time when they insist on putting more taxes on the people, when prices were going to be independent of their action. In the past, time and again, they have put up the prices and their policy has had the effect of putting up prices to heights that very few could tolerate or bear. Then at the time when the European crisis assists them in putting up prices, as if that were not enough, they come along with new taxes. Nobody can pretend—and the Ministers least of all, with the statement of the Taoiseach and various other Ministers before us—that this was a situation that came upon them and found them unprepared. They foresaw it for the last two years and they were fully aware of it for over 12 months. What were the measures that they took to meet the situation? No effective ones. They are now left in the position of merely piling on tax after tax.

Prices, we are told by Ministers, will tend to rise. Everybody, unfortunately, knows that. What the country cannot understand is why the Government should be responsible for a still further rise. Every article I mentioned there—and there were only some food-stuffs—as well as many others, will rise in price. The policy of the Government in the past has had the same effect. It has been pointed out to the Government in the past that one of the results of pursuing a policy of that kind will be to add to industrial unrest. If you increase prices you diminish the real value of wages. Even the Government can realise that. It was pointed out to them that any policy which did lead to an increase in prices would bring about industrial unrest and, now, when there is this big jump in prices, the Government increase those prices still further.

What is the Minister's contribution? He says in effect, "Let there be no talk about a diminution in real wages or any effort to remedy that situation." The situation is serious enough and the temptation on the part of the ordinary worker, when he is faced with this continual increase of prices, to demand a higher wage is great; that is natural enough. By itself it is calculated to lead to industrial unrest. Then the Minister quite unnecessarily yesterday threw down a challenge which is simply asking for industrial unrest. The situation itself might create a development of that kind, but the Minister is not satisfied. He throws down the gauntlet. What he said amounts to this: "Prices go up and we will put them up still further, but let nobody object. Let nobody seek to remedy this position as a result of the war situation, or the Government policy. We will tax what we can and where we can." I gathered yesterday that the Minister for Industry and Commerce put forward the extraordinary argument that, after all, if the people were asked to pay ¾d. in the lb. extra on sugar as a tax, that was only to meet a saving that "the people" would get because there would be a fall in customs. That would mean they would have to pay less taxes for the articles they could no longer get and, after all, the money was in their pockets and what is the good of having money—and this is a comment——

It certainly is a comment.

What is the good of having money in people's pockets if the Government cannot take it? Anyhow, what the Minister for Industry and Commerce did not consider is this—whether it was the same people who would be paying the sugar tax who would get off the customs tax because of the fact that articles are not coming in. He refused to consider, apparently, who will be hit most by this new tax. That, after all, was the burden, or one of the burdens, of complaint. But, from the Minister for Finance, from his colleague who sits beside him and from the ex-Minister for Finance, apparently, sugar must be taxed because it makes the collection easy and, as the Minister said, we have a very efficient machine for collecting these taxes. The main consideration, therefore, is the case of the imposition of the tax, not the way it will affect the different classes of the community, not the way in which it may even affect the health of younger members of a certain class of the community. Brush that aside. The Minister for Finance left his humanitarianism behind him in Local Government and once he got into Finance his policy is that the taxes must be got where we can get them. And this tax on sugar is one of the easiest methods.

The other Minister—the Minister for Supplies—yesterday tried to justify this tax. Apparently in Great Britain they pay 4½d. for sugar. That was the first justification put forward by the Minister for alleged Supplies for jumping our price up to 4½d. He started his speech by a reference to the price of sugar in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What he did not take into account was the amount of employment that the war situation at the moment gives in Great Britain. Have you it here? Is there an increase in employment here? Are the working people here in a position that they will be able to bear this increased price as well as the working class in Great Britain? That was left on one side. Again, the main thing, he pointed out, was that this was an easy tax to collect and, that being so, that is all he had to say on the matter.

We have not in this country a boom, temporarily perhaps, in wages and employment that will make it easy for people to bear this particular tax and I am not aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in England found it necessary to issue a warning against any demand for increased wages to meet a higher cost of living. It was left to our humane Minister for Finance here to do that. At a time when he himself was one of the factors and at a time when for a number of years his Government was one of the principal factors in putting up prices in this country, and therefore diminishing real wages, he finds it necessary to throw down the gauntlet to the workers. And above all remember "we must get the money where we can; otherwise we might have to revise our policy." That revision is the last thing the Minister could think of doing.

Here was the situation. The truthful prophet, the Minister for Supplies, told us on the 18th October that he saw no reason for expecting an immediate increase in the price of sugar. Therefore, we will assume he knew nothing about it on the 18th October. I am not surprised. But, having found out, by the normal or abnormal way in which he manages his Department, that there would be an increase of ¾d. due to other causes he and his colleague, the Minister for Finance, put on another ¾d. Therefore, they chose an article, a necessity of life, which, according to their own confession or their own plea, would in any case go up ¾d. They chose that article, one of the most essential in the food of the ordinary man, on which to put another ¾d. Their reaction was not that here was this commodity going up unduly in price owing to circumstances over which they have now no control. They had control for the twelve months or two years in which they foresaw this situation but now it may be that they have no control over it. What is their reaction to that increase in price? Doubling the increase. That is Government policy. That is the way in which the Minister for Finance and his colleagues have faced this very serious situation.

I indicated earlier that I was looking for a copy of to-day's Irish Independent, but owing to the fierce campaign for large economies in which the Government are indulging they did not supply the usual copies of the three Dublin papers to which we were accustomed. I got a loan of one, having forgotten to bring one of my own, not foreseeing the great strides that would be made in the way of economy by the Government. I read here that Mr. C.E. Reddin, secretary of the Licensed Grocers' and Vintners' Association, said:—

"The retail trade would be in a particularly embarrassing position— I am now dealing with the tax on beer and spirits—as far as revision of prices was concerned by reason of the fact that a case had been made as far back as July, 1938, for an increase in the price of beer by 1d. per pint, and this had only been postponed for administrative reasons, but within the last fortnight the Department of Supplies had been notified that that increase, along with an increase of 2d. per glass on foreign spirits—necessitated by increases in the wholesale prices of these commodities and other factors—was about to take place."

This time the Government get in before the "trade". The sugar company got in before the Ministers themselves, but now they get in before the trade. They know that for commercial reasons a case had been put up to the Government that there is going to be an increase in beer and certain spirits. The Government reckon once more on collecting further taxes from these. If there is going to be an increase, the Government are bound to get their share of it by adding to it.

The Government cannot complain that they were not warned often enough as to whither their policy was tending for a number of years past. Again and again it was pointed out to them what would be the effect of the continued increases in prices for which their policy was responsible. Again and again it was pointed out to them that they were taxing the people beyond all reasonable limits. They remained deaf to these warnings. It is their constitutional privilege to remain deaf to warnings of that kind. We are not denying it. All that the ordinary public can do in that case is to grin and bear it. They taxed in a time of peace on a war-time scale and now when the effect of the war has come upon us, when all these results of a war situation have increased the difficulties of the ordinary people, then they come with what they might call war-time taxes for this neutral country on the plea that it is harder very often to preserve neutrality than to fight. Yet we have still to wait for any justification that anything they have done in the way of expenditure has helped to preserve that neutrality or to preserve our independence.

Sugar was bound to rise. Why? Because next June to October we shall have to purchase foreign sugar. The Minister was asked yesterday why we had not a supply in. I remember at the end of September at a meeting here I gathered that for 12 months past the Minister for Industry and Commerce as he then was, and for Supplies as he now is, was busy laying in stores against the rainy day; but he does not seem to have been very successful. Were all his contracts fulfilled? Was there any failure in carrying out contracts? We presume there was not, because he certainly has not revealed any to the House. Therefore, we must assume he did not even make an attempt to meet the situation that he and his colleagues saw was threatening. Sugar was bound to rise. Why? On account of the price that we may have to pay for foreign sugar next June to October, plus the cost—and here he thought he would give his little help to his colleague, the Minister for Finance —and plus the cost that may arise from organisational and labour troubles. Was it necessary also to provide for these in order to increase the price of sugar, in order to increase the price of commodities, and thereby contribute your little bit to bringing about labour troubles?

We are told that there is to be a new loan. For what purpose? The Minister for Finance may think that he has been clear on the point, but we have no idea for what purpose it is to be raised or what amount; nor do we know what burden will have to be met for the service of that loan, or what provision the Minister is going to make for it. It means further taxation. In the past, Ministers for Finance have come in for a certain amount of criticism because they borrowed for services for which borrowing should not have taken place. I wonder whether I am right in saying that the present Minister has introduced a new note— spending next year's revenue this year. That is only £600,000. To the Minister it is only a trifle, but it is a very bad precedent. It is a precedent that has brought down other Governments. Spending next year's revenue this year—that is not a good example. It would be better even to have borrowing, which we are accustomed to, than that. There are other matters that might be referred to. But if anybody thinks that this particular statement by the Minister is a contribution to the material, commercial, industrial, or economic stability of this country, then he is a very optimistic individual indeed.

Is no one going to say a word in defence of this wretched Budget?

Do you think that speech calls for a reply?

I do not blame the Minister. I do not blame his colleagues, more especially the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who is here furnished forth with abundant files.

No man in this House knows better than he the depth and gravity of the dilemma in which this country has been placed by his own colleagues, and indeed in no small measure by himself. When he introduced his own Budget last May, he used words which the present Minister for Finance saw fit to quote in introducing this Supplementary Budget. Last May, the Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, said:

"Stringent and straitened as our position is, I believe that we can endure it so long as peace is maintained."

What made our position stringent and straitened? Seven years of Fianna Fáil policy and nothing else. Stringent and straitened as we were, he says if war comes

"our difficulties will be intensified beyond measure. I speak now only of the reaction of such a disaster upon our finances. But there I know that with a much diminished real income, we shall be called upon to shoulder vastly increased public burdens".

Why? Because every hen roost, every reserve, every saving that had been accumulated in this country during the first ten years of national Government had been dissipated during the subsequent seven years of Fianna Fáil Government. From these benches repeatedly during those seven years we said: If that policy continues, the end is national bankruptcy. I well remember the Minister and his colleagues replying: "That is merely to cry wolf; there is no danger of national bankruptcy; everything in the garden is lovely".

The difference between us and Fianna Fáil is this, that with some knowledge of finance we forecast in time the consequences of Fianna Fáil policy. The Ministers of the Fianna Fáil Government, by experience, are learning the bitter lesson, in company with every citizen of this State, that extravagance of the kind that has gone on for the last seven years brings with it a terrifying nemesis. When I use the word terrifying I use it deliberately, because the most evil element in the danger of the collapse of our national finances is the danger of subsequent civil turmoil. If the Government cannot pay their way, the State is within sight of civil turmoil. Civil turmoil may damage the Fianna Fáil Government, but it will damage this country and everyone who loves this country far more.

I have often been asked in this House: "What do you mean by national bankruptcy?" I mean by national bankruptcy when you are reduced to the stage that you have got to go to the poorest man in this country and say to him: "Knowing that at this moment your children are getting less food than they ought to have, we now require you to reduce their ration further." That is national bankruptcy. I do not deny that circumstances might arise in which we would be entitled to go to the poorest and say: "You are hungry, but a national emergency demands that you should be hungrier still." But, before we do that, we should provide that if they are to be hungrier still we shall all be hungry together. I voted for the increase in Deputies' salaries, and I make no apology for doing so, but are we never to draw the line? We put 2/- on income-tax in the last nine months, the net result of which is to increase the salary of each one of us by about £80 a year, and we are telling a man with 27/- a week to pull his belt a little tighter than before. There are limits to decency in public life, but I think that about plumbs the depths we could reach.

If we are going to ask for economies—and it may be necessary in time to ask economies—from the poorest in this State, then we ought to make a similar contribution ourselves, whether we derive incomes from Parliamentary allowances, professions, business or otherwise. You have no right to ask people who are hungry to be hungrier still for the State, when you have never known hunger yourself. I admit freely that, to reduce the whole population to the lowest level of poverty obtaining in this Stare, would be gravely to jeopardise the whole economic structure of the country, and I can imagine an emergency so grave as to justify that cost, when one would prefer economic ruin to the surrender of one's liberty or one's fundamental beliefs. No such menace threatens this country at the present time. If such a menace did threaten, then every able-bodied man should be in arms to defend the country. No such menace is on the horizon, but we are quite calmly in this Budget asking the poorest element of the community to make sacrifices commensurate with such an emergency, while we sit back and reassure one another that there is no need to be alarmed or to be unduly excited about dangers that threaten the State.

My indictment is that we are asking the poorest in this community to make those sacrifices, because Ministers on the opposite benches are either incompetent or too lazy to face the duties devolving upon them. I have yet to hear from any Minister in this House any sound reason for the taxation that was imposed in the last Budget, or in this Supplementary Budget. Let me say this at once: if any sound reason was advanced for the scale of expenditure being embarked upon at present by the Minister for Finance, I would be the first to defend his action in raising the necessary money by taxation, instead of borrowing it on the credit of the country. Let us give the devil his due. If the Minister was convinced that this expenditure was requisite for the saving of the State, it was an honest and a courageous thing to take the unpopular course of raising it by taxation, rather than to make a specious defence by trying to get it by borrowing, in order to conceal from the people the measure of liability we were undertaking. But, if just through laziness or lack of moral courage he is not prepared to say to his less responsible colleagues: "A lot of the expenditure proposed is `codology' and I will have to make the poor of this country sweat in order to produce money to finance it," then he is responsible for the suffering that is going to ensue from the burden he proposes to impose in these Financial Resolutions.

We heard the song, "The Old Cow Died," from the Minister for Industry and Commerce last night, when he asked, "What Estimates are you going to reduce if you want to reduce taxation?" I agree at once that that is good politics. I agree at once that the average voter down the country does not appreciate the relative positions of an Opposition and the Minister for Finance. He does not know that when the Minister for Finance is preparing his Budget he goes to the Revenue Commissioners, or to high officers of the Department of Finance, who place before him Estimates, suggestions, prognostications and results of every conceivable course that could be thought of, in regard to budgetary procedure, and with all that exhaustive information at his disposal the Minister is in a position to forecast, with some degree of accuracy, where economies could effectively be made, and where expenditure is absolutely essential; whereas a Deputy on the Opposition Benches has none of that information available to him. A Deputy could go through the Estimates, as the Leader of the Opposition did in connection with the principal Budget, and point out to the Minister where expenditure had increased in services outside the social services by £3,000,000 per annum since Fianna Fáil came into office. The Minister was then asked: "Why can you not make economies there?" That question was never answered. It is not answered now. If these economies were made not 1d. of the revenue he demands in the Supplementary Budget would be necessary.

What is the use of the Minister for Finance saying to me: "What services will you economise upon?" when he is shovelling potatoes into the alcohol factories at the present time, alcohol factories which were designed to produce motor spirit at 3/6 a gallon that could be delivered free on the quays at Dublin for 4d. Alcohol at 3/6 a gallon is to take the place of petrol that could be bought before the war for 4d., and is to be manufactured out of potatoes which, at present, could be converted into pork, which commands a market price of 88/- per cwt., and that is expected to go to 100/- before another year is passed. Well may the Minister for Industry and Commerce sink his head in his hands. I challenge him now to get up in this debate and explain to the House why, in the present national emergency, he finds it expedient to continue expenditure of that kind. Why does he think it necessary to put 1d. a lb. on sugar in order to enable industrial alcohol to be manufactured out of potatoes that are badly needed for the feeding of live stock?

When there was never a smaller acreage of potatoes in the country.

Let the Minister answer that. That is one concrete suggestion for economy that will relieve the emergency Budget at once.

To what extent?

Not a ½d.

Did the Minister work it out?

Does it mean a ½d. in the Budget?

Does it not mean 2d. a gallon on petrol? Does the Minister deny that it means 2d. a gallon on petrol?

Run rabbit run!

That has been about the Minister's attitude for the last three years. He must have dreamt of that gallon every time it was mentioned. No doubt he said "bang, bang" to that. He will never have to run from it again, but I hope he will have to run from the outraged sense of justice of a very patient people. Let the Minister go into the figures. I invite him to tell us what revenue would be available for the Minister for Finance if the industrial alcohol folly was suspended. The Minister told us yesterday that of the 14/- proposed to be imposed, 7/6 is taxation and 6/6 is to go to the sugar company. It does not take any brilliant mind to imagine that the bulk of that 6/6 is going to be used for the purpose of increasing the price of beet. I say here that every acre of land in Ireland can be profitably used for the production of agricultural produce which can be sold at a profit in the British market at the present moment. Now, I ask Deputies to bear in mind that we were told, when the four beet sugar factories were being built in this country, that the object was not primarily to secure a new market for the farmers of this country, but to provide essential foodstuffs in the first place and, secondly, as I admit, to provide an alternative crop. The Minister told us yesterday that there are unlimited supplies of sugar, and explained the rise in price by the rise in prices abroad.

I said nothing of the kind.

The Minister explained the rise in the price of sugar by the rise in the prices abroad.

I said nothing of the kind.

Did not the Minister say that he was buying sugar abroad at 17/-? Bear in mind that, for the last two years. the Minister could have bought all the sugar he wanted, delivered at Dublin Quay at 8/- per cwt. Now, the delivered price of beet sugar, manufactured in the sugar beet factories in this country, delivered at the several railheads, wherever there is a railhead, is, or I think will be, approximately 30/- before the duty is paid.

For sugar?

Nonsense.

Well, what is it? The Minister must know the price of sugar to-day, or does he know what he is doing? I am afraid that is the tragedy. He does not know what he is doing. We are told that the price at the present time, delivered at the railhead, is 42/6.

A little less.

Yes, but in the case of the majority of rural towns it is about 42/6 delivered. Now, on the present basis, taking the price of sugar as delivered at the railhead, if the price is going to be increased, as I forecast it will be increased, by the amount of the Minister's provision—that is, 6/6 per cwt. on sugar—the price is going to be 23/6, plus 6/-, the production cost —that is, about 29/6, delivered at the railhead. Now, this is important to understand. The present production price of beet sugar, delivered at the railhead, is 23/6.

That is grotesquely inaccurate. The sale price of sugar last year was 25/6—it was that even last month.

If the Minister wishes to correct my figures, will he correct them now?

Only on the question of taxation.

My point, Sir, is that this Government, instead of voting a subsidy on sugar, have put it on the price and have allowed the company to collect what actually is a tax.

Is it the Minister's point that he objects to the use of the phrase "production price" as meaning the net selling price of sugar?

My contention is that the Deputy's figures are all wrong. In any event, the increase in the price of sugar is due to the increased price of imported sugar and not for the purpose of giving an increased price for beet.

Well, I find that very hard to believe, because I know perfectly well that, if you do not pay more for beet in the coming year you will get no beet grown by the farmers because, as we have always told you, beet at the Government price was all right so long as the farmers could not get a proper price for their live stock.

The Chair is not prepared to hear anything about an extra price for beet, nor about the growing of beet. The Deputy realises what his present line might lead to.

The Cumann na nGaedheal Government, some years ago, took the course of saying to the original beet factory: "Go ahead and manufacture sugar from beet and tell us what your production price is, and we will give you, out of the Exchequer, a certain lump sum for every cwt. of sugar you produce;" and that lump sum appeared in the Estimates every year as the subsidy for the sugar beet factory. When the Fianna Fáil Government came into office, they changed that, and said to the beet factory: "We will not charge you a duty on the sugar, but you can sell the sugar to the consumer with this amount added on, and so it can be concealed from the consumer as a tax, because otherwise the merits of this crazy scheme are liable to be debated in Dáil Éireann."

I might remind the Deputy that that industry was sanctioned by legislation.

Yes, Sir, but if you suspend that scheme, which nobody wants at the present time, since we have abundant means of using every acre of land in this country profitably, there would be realised for the Exchequer an immense sum of money. I do not want to see anybody's economy upset or disturbed. I am trying to put one measure of suffering as against another. Is it worse to go in to a man who has based the economy of his farm on beet, and say that he must change that economy, or to go in to a man who is the father of a family, and whose children are hungry, and say to that man that his children must go hungry? As between these two alternatives, I shall go to the farmers—and I ask the farmers of Co. Monaghan to mark my words—

There are no beet growers in Co. Monaghan.

Whether it is a matter of growing beet, hay, wheat, or anything else, I invite every farmer—and particularly those in the Co. Monaghan—to go into this matter of the choice between these two alternatives, as to whether a man should change his economy or that others must go hungry, and those that do not agree with me there I would ask to vote against me.

Where are we going to get the sugar?

Where have you been getting it for the last two years? If the Minister will answer that question, I shall answer the other question.

What increase in price would there be if we were solely dependent on imported sugar?

Now, the Minister has been receiving his salary, just as I have been, and the purpose of his Ministry is the getting in of supplies. Time and time again, he was asked to buy and store sugar, and he could have got for the last two years all the sugar he wanted at 8/- a cwt. at Dublin quay, and the Minister knows that.

The last statement the Deputy made was that there would be no war at all.

That is quite untrue, but the fact is that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who was in charge of supplies, came to this House time and time again and told us that all was well, that he was watching the situation and that he was taking every reasonable precaution; and on the 1st September of this year he told us that he had taken the precaution and that the supply was there. Yet he told us yesterday that on the 1st November there was not one bag of sugar left in the beet sugar factory. Either he was telling us what was not true in the past or he told what was untrue yesterday. We are still waiting for him to tell us which story we are to believe.

Will the Deputy read what I said on the 1st September?

I put it to the Minister that, over and above the £3,000,000 to which the Leader of the Opposition referred when he was speaking, there is scope for economy in any number of the crack-pot schemes for which the Minister is at present making himself responsible. Will the Minister for Industry and Commerce get up and tell the House what the wheat scheme is costing at present and will he defend the expenditure on that scheme while his colleague, the Minister for Finance, is asking the poor to cut down the supply of sugar available for their children? Does anyone in this country deny that we could have stored in the last two years enough wheat to keep this country going for two years?

Where would we store it?

In two of the beet sugar factories which were costing us £1,000,000 a year to keep going.

There would be nothing but weevils there by this.

The Minister invites harsh comment. I believe that the Minister knows that the weevil difficulty in wheat was overcome as early as last spring by experts from the British Ministry of Agriculture and that he thinks that I do not know it and is trying to ride off on a misrepresentation of that kind. There was a weevil difficulty in connection with the storage of wheat. That weevil difficulty confronted the British Government as early as last February and British experts expressed great anxiety about it. But they tackled the problem of discovering a means of overcoming the weevil threat and there is stored in Britain at present nearly 18 months' supply of wheat for 40,000,000 people.

Relatively, they have much smaller storage than we have.

Where are we? We could have bought all the wheat we wanted at the lowest price at which wheat was ever sold since Cleopatra sat upon the throne of Egypt. That is literally true. The price was the lowest known in the civilised history of man. We could have stored that wheat and, in a time of national emergency, have perfectly legitimately gone to those farmers who are growing wheat and said: "We cannot afford to pay you and the millers a subsidy of £3,000,000 per annum and, at the same time, ask poor women in Gloucester Street, Kanturk or Ballaghaderreen to cut down the sugar supply of their poor, underfed children." Make no mistake about this—we are paying to-day to the millers and wheat growers of this country £3,000,000 sterling per annum as a subsidy out of the consumers' purse. We have paid that subsidy for the past 12 months to the millers. We paid it for three years before that. The millers got their share of it and the wheat growers got a very small share of it. The millers got the bulk of it and put it in their banks to the credit of their private accounts as profit on their business. Is that right——

Or true?

It is perfectly true.

It is all nonsense.

The price of flour in this country—the tale cannot be too often told—was 20/- per sack higher than the price of the same flour in the City of London or the City of Liverpool.

On the Estimate for the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce that matter was fully discussed. It is not relevant now.

No, but I say that to continue paying out £3,000,000 a year to the millers and, at the same time, to ask the poor of this city and other cities and towns in Ireland to make their contribution out of the miserable ¼ stone of sugar they get once a week is a public scandal and a crime. There is not a single Deputy on the opposite benches who would dare to defend it down the country and there is not a single Deputy on those benches who will not trot like a sheep into the Lobby in defence of it to-day. There is not a single Deputy on the opposite benches who, in his own constituency, will not condemn in the most unmeasured language this imposition on the foodstuffs of the poorer sections of the community, but the only one amongst them with the courage to say in Dáil Eireann what he says down in County Cork is Deputy Corry—a rough, plain man but one who has, at least, a bit of moral courage and moral courage is more admirable than gentility. Some of the rough, plain men in Fianna Fáil, since they got white collars on them and binoculars on their back, are not as honest with the people as they used to be.

I should like the Minister for Finance to tell us if he thinks it is right to burden the flour consumers of this country with an annual charge of £3,000,000 and to give that money to the millers and wheat growers while he is asking the mothers of poor children to contribute 6d. a week on their ¼ stone of sugar. Is not that a fair question? Is it not a question to which it behoves the Minister for Finance to give a reply? Will he justify £3,000,000 on flour for the millers, will he justify the extra charges on sugar for the beet sugar company, will he justify the continuance of the industrial alcohol project, will he justify the several items which, together, make up the Estimate of increased expenditure referred to by the Leader of the Opposition in the Budget debate last May? His colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, continually says: "Show us how we are to save this money if we are to refrain from this taxation." There are a few suggestions in that speech of the Leader of the Opposition. I invite the Minister for Industry and Commerce to intervene on this debate, reject each one of these suggestions and, at the end of his rejection, say that to finance these schemes he requires 6d. on the ¼ stone of sugar.

I am sometimes afraid that when we —all of us—get into an assembly of this kind, we tend, gradually, to withdraw ourselves from the people who sent us here. I glory in the fact that so long as I have been a member of this House I have continued to be a country shopkeeper. I come in contact every day with the people whom we are supposed to represent here. I know the difficulties that confront them, and I have known the humiliation to be turned into a tax-gatherer for the Government in respect of people who, I knew, were barely able to live. I know what it is to collect that cursed 6d. on a quarter stone of sugar from a woman whose children I knew to be hungry. I levied the £1 per sack on men who could not afford to pay for their bag of flour and who had to ask leave to pay for it by instalments. I have seen men get their 27/- and turn over 6/- of that through me to the Exchequer on the 1 cwt. of flour required to feed the family. If a few of the Ministers sitting on the benches opposite who are responsible for proposals of that kind had similar experiences, I think that they would be slower to present such proposals to their complacent Party for their acceptance. How can this House impose hunger on hundreds of our people without first being satisfied in our own minds that we impose it on ourselves? Surely that is a legitimate dilemma.

I know how easy it is in times of difficulty to stir up one section of the community against another. I do not want to do that. I do not want to suggest that I believe the Minister for Industry and Commerce is the representative of bankers or international financiers or that he has sold his soul or his honour to anybody. I do not believe that that is true. But I am suggesting to him that he is allowing his eyes to be blinded, by the fact that he is in politics involved every day in affairs of State, and has got out of touch with the small domestic affairs of the people amongst whom he was born and bred—the poor of Dublin. I do not believe that, if he were not getting out of touch, he could sponsor these proposals here in the knowledge that by being firm and defending their interests, as he has a duty to defend them, he could reduce expenditure in such a way as to make these impositions unnecessary.

Do we not all know that last September the then Minister for Finance became hysterical? Do we not all know that he started mobilising every man he could put a claw on. Out of charity we said nothing. We knew that he was making a fool of himself, but we felt that in the end the Government would get control and bring him to heel. Quantities of money were squandered. Do we not all know that, in the first six or eight weeks of this crisis, the purchasers of Army supplies had no regard to money, value or anything else. Anyone who offered them anything from a second-hand pair of shoes to a sterile cow got the top price for it. We knew that that would be brought under control in time and we did not unduly press the Government. Do we not know now that half the mobilisation which was effected at that time is being undone by his successor in office? Do we not know that that amount of extravagance has taken place and that public money has been wasted in that way?

If the Minister and his colleagues felt equal to taking the steps necessary to arrest that kind of conduct, does not the Minister think it is his duty to go further in the matter to arrest similar indefensible extravagance rather than call upon people to pay for more? How long are we to go on plunging deeper and deeper when we have not the money to pay for it? Mind you, this is not a development of to-day or yesterday. Who, knowing our financial position as we know it, would have gone on with the erection of the palace in Kildare Street for the Minister for Industry and Commerce? I do not deny that that building may be an architectural asset to the city when it is finished, but is this the time—or was it the time when that building was started—to plunge into substantial additional capital expenditure of such an unremunerative nature?

Why does the Deputy say it is unremunerative?

Inasmuch as the Minister would have adorned the city with a new set of offices, with expensive and well polished furniture, though I cannot say he would have wasted less money in Kildare Street than in Merrion Street or Lord Edward Street.

The Deputy will be surprised to hear that less will be spent in Kildare Street.

If I knew that to be true, I would build 12 such palaces for the members of the Government. But I do not; I believe that the larger they get, the more expensive their ideas become, and that the further they become removed from the humble walks of life from which they and I have sprung, the more glorious and imperial their outlook becomes. I believe the Minister for Industry and Commerce would toss off a sum of public money now that he would have regarded as an endowment for life when he was a private citizen, and that he would laugh at anybody who suggested that it was deserving of a half an hour of his consideration to economise.

I said before, and I believe it to be true, that Mr. Hooley in his wildest day of speculation would never have dreamt of the speculation on which the Minister for Industry and Commerce is embarking with the public money of this country. The Minister knows that that is true. He knows the extravagant failures that he has had and the fearful waste involved in them. But that is past history. All I am asking the Minister for Finance now to do is to examine the items referred to by the Leader of the Opposition, to examine the items that I have referred to here to-day, and to ask himself: "Am I morally justified, for the purpose of carrying on these services, in imposing the tax which I propose to put upon the food of the poor?" I do not believe that he can answer that question in the affirmative. I am not asking him to take a decision on policy, as to whether these schemes—looking into the far distance—may not be desirable and deserve to be maintained hereafter; but I am asking him if he is prepared to ask himself this question: "Granted an emergency, granted a shortage of revenue, should I say that these schemes must be suspended while the revenue is short or ought I say that we must inflate revenue further in some other way than by taxing the foodstuffs of the very poor?" I cannot imagine any rational man deciding in favour of the taxation of the food of the poor to pay for this. I would be glad if he would tell the House his views.

I think circumstances can arise in the lifetime of the country which might entitle one to go to the hungry and the poor and tell them that they must suffer more than they have suffered heretofore. I think that is conceivable, but I ask the Minister for Finance does he not agree with me that before you do that you have got to satisfy yourselves that you have reduced the better-off elements of the community to the bare subsistence line of hunger at which the poor already are. Or, are you entitled to ask the hungry to go hungrier while there are still individuals in the state of substantial comfort? I do not think you are. If you are going to exacerbate a man's existing destitution and that of his family, if you are going to demand any contribution from him, you must be satisfied that every other person in the State is at his level. Then you can ask all to become hungrier together. If there be elements in society which are comparatively comfortable and other elements which are destitute, you must either spare the destitute from all of the burden and require the comparatively comfortable to bear it all, or, if you want the destitute to bear a share, you must be in a position to reassure them that we are all destitute. There is no other means of preserving the integrity of the State.

Ultimately, this question presents itself to us as legislators, and we must face it. If you are going to enforce the law, you have got to be in a position to say to those who seek to overthrow the State by force of arms that we will defend it by force of arms. You have got to be in a position to say to citizens that, if they take up arms against the legitimate Government of the country, the Government of the country will take up arms against them and will use them, if needs be. I say that to do that you must be in a sound moral position. If you have comfortable elements in the country while you are asking the destitute poor to suffer deeper destitution and greater poverty before you come down to that line yourselves, you are not in the moral position to say to them that if they revolt against the State the State will meet them with force and that they will use that force, if needs be. If, when we are all poor and destitute together, we are all have to make sacrifices beyond the minimum of comfort, then I say that we are entitled to face any element, whenever it comes, that threatens to revolt against the properly made laws of this State, but if laws so flagrantly depart from justice, we are tempting providence.

Now, I may be wrong. Maybe my reasoning is wrong, but if it is, let us debate it here, and let us teach the people, and one another, where we are wrong in that concept. If it is wrong, and if I can be convinced that it is wrong, I am prepared to withdraw and apologise to the House for submitting it for their consideration. I profoundly believe it to be true and, if it is true, we ought to face its implications, and we ought to comb the public expenditure of every redundant item before we seek to add another ¼d. to the cost of the foodstuffs of the poor, and when we have done that, we ought to pile the burden of taxation upon our own shoulders, and upon the shoulders of every other section of the community who do not know the meaning of destitution, until they have learned to understand that, too. Then, and only then, have we the right to ask those who are already hungry to help in the bearing of the still heavier burden, and then I am quite prepared to join with the Minister in making that demand from them, but until we do those things, I say the Minister is wrong to make that demand upon them. I think they are right to resent it bitterly and I pray Heaven that the ordinary machinery of public life in this country will be adequate to redress that wrong. I say most solemnly and deliberately that resort to any other means to redress it can only bring upon those who undertake them infinitely greater ills, and not only on themselves, but on the whole State. They can wreck all hope of redress of their grievances by losing patience.

I am convinced that, ultimately, the methods of government we have in this country will prove adequate to remove so flagrant an injustice as the impositions imposed in this Budget are. I believe every responsible man in the country corresponds with that view. I do not understand how the Minister for Finance, either as a man or as a Minister, can defend the position into which he is being forced here, and I challenge him to say to the House how he can maintain the schemes and added expenditure referred to by the Leader of the Opposition and, at the same time, require the poor of this country to pay for it at the rate of 6d. on the ¼ stone of sugar.

We have heard from two leaders of the Opposition Party two very irresponsible speeches and the eloquence of Deputy Dillon and the emphasis of Deputy O'Sullivan did not suffice to conceal the utter recklessness that inspired their remarks. The rottenest kind of Party politics are those in which Party advantage is considered of more importance than national interests. We in this country are facing a period of great difficulty. Whatever manner in which this war may develop, whatever changes may take place in Europe, inevitably the prolongation of the war will mean for us a period of considerable trial, and a period on which it will be touch and go for us to preserve the economic organisation of our country, to protect its neutrality and, ultimately, to defend its independence. In such conditions, it is obvious that the national interest demands of all political Parties the subordination of their Party interests to the general national welfare. For one period, a very short period after the commencement of the war, we thought we were going to get that subordination of Party interests to the national interest. We had from the leaders of the main Opposition Party, and from the leaders of the Labour Party, protestations of their patriotism and of their intention to demonstrate their patriotism by co-operating with the Government in the solution of the very grave problems to which the war would undoubtedly give rise. They spoke of these problems. Had they given one moment's consideration to their character when they admitted their realisation of the difficulties which the war situation was going to create for us; had they thought seriously what the character of these difficulties was likely to be? From the speeches we have heard here to-day and yesterday, it is quite clear that they had not. It is quite clear that they thought these difficulties would be of a temporary and ephemeral character that could be got rid of by eloquent speeches such as we are accustomed to hear from Deputy Dillon.

When we spoke of the difficulties which the war would bring for us, when we warned the people that these difficulties would involve the placing of considerable burdens upon them and would test the strength of our financial and economic resources to the full, we were speaking after having given very careful consideration to the particular difficulties that were to be anticipated, to the character of them and to the solutions that would have to be applied to them. Take this question of national revenue. We have heard from Deputy Dillon to-day, and from Deputy Norton and other Deputies yesterday, fierce denunciations of the Government for having, in these circumstances, imposed new taxes. Did they think that new taxes could be avoided when they were contemplating the probable development of the war and the consequences of the war to this country? Did they think it was going to be practicable to carry on the services of the Government, the new services which the war would demand and the old services which our economic and social conditions made necessary, without imposing new taxes, or did they think that there was going to result from the war some new sources of revenue, some mysterious way of getting in money to the Exchequer, otherwise than by getting it from the people of the country out of national income?

Why are new taxes necessary now? For two reasons. In the first place, the war itself has demanded additional expenditure from the Exchequer. We have decided upon a policy of neutrality. The protection of that policy of neutrality involved certain expenditure upon our armed forces—the enlargement of them, the placing of these forces on a war basis—and upon the creation of new services for the watching of our coasts to prevent breaches of our neutrality, the inauguration of censorship and numerous other services, the sole purpose of which is to insure that nobody in this country, or outside, shall violate our neutrality against our will. We could have reduced other services, ordinary, normal peace-time services which might be regarded as of a luxury character and capable of being dispensed with in time of war. We will do that. The first action taken by the Government in relation to the financial conditions produced by the war was the establishment of a very responsible committee of public officials, public men, to consider and report upon the economies of that kind that could be secured. That committee has already submitted two reports, and it is still sitting, but if any serious and substantial economies were to be secured in respect of the normal expenditure of the State, we would have to go beyond the mere elimination of luxury services, the mere temporary suspension of activities which might be regarded as dispensable in time of war, and cut in upon the main social services of the State, the very services that were erected as barriers against destitution arising from old age, sickness, unemployment or any similar cause.

And industrial alcohol.

The mere fact that new services had to be established, and new expenditure undertaken, was not, however, the only difficulty. If that were the only difficulty, we might have offset that new charge upon the Exchequer of the State by the economies to which I have referred as having been already recommended by the Economy Committee, or the new economies which they may recommend in the future, but surely Deputies who have thought at all upon this matter must have realised that a State, a substantial part of the revenue of which comes from customs duties, was bound to suffer a diminution in that revenue in circumstances of war, during which normal trade conditions could not be continued and during which a number of classes of goods, ordinarily imported here and which paid duty on importation here, would not be available at all. One of the main reasons why new taxes are necessary is that the old taxes are no longer yielding the revenue that we expected from them. How are we going to deal with that situation?

Reduce expenditure.

Deputy Dillon says reduce expenditure. I agree that we must not only reduce expenditure to the last penny——

Blow up the alcohol factories.

I say to Deputy Dillon, who evidently cannot appreciate it, and to the more intelligent members of the House, no matter how we reduce expenditure, unless we are prepared to cut in on social services, we still will not succeed in making good the cost of the new services, plus the deficiency in existing revenues. Figures were given by the Minister for Finance to the House yesterday. He mentioned an anticipated deficit in this year's Budget of a substantial amount. He submitted to the House proposals for the imposition of new taxes designed to bring in substantial revenue, but not sufficient additional revenue to make good the deficiency. When all these taxes which the House has been asked to approve of are enforced and bringing in revenue, they will not bring in enough revenue to make good the deficiency. That deficiency can only be made good by adding to the new taxes the economies which Deputy Dillon has spoken of and which the Government is working to bring into operation.

It may be possible to have genuine differences of opinion as to the most suitable taxes to impose. That I can see, but it is idle to pretend that every member of the Government, every member of the Government Party, unanimously agreed that the particular taxes which are provided for in these resolutions were the only ones, the only suitable ones, that could be brought into operation. We considered every possible modification of the existing taxes and decided in the end on those we have proposed as the best in all the circumstances. We recognise that each addition to existing taxes, every new impost placed on the people of the country, is going to cause hardship. Every tax causes hardship. No Government imposes taxes lightly. No Government, merely for the fun of it, seeks to place hardship on its people. Neither do we. If these taxes have been submitted to the Dáil, it is because the Government, in the circumstances of the time, considered that they are unavoidable, that they are absolutely essential to the maintenance of Government services here and the maintenance of the ordinary economic activities of the country.

It is quite true to say that the imposition of new taxes is particularly harsh at a time when, for other reasons, prices of foodstuffs and other commodities are moving upwards. Deputy O'Sullivan spoke as if the Government, and only the Government, was to be held to blame because of the upward movement of prices, but neither Deputy O'Sullivan, nor Deputy Dillon, when they were speaking here some weeks ago about their willingness to co-operate with the Government and to help in the solution of the difficulties created by the war, suggested that there would be no increase in prices. Are their memories so bad that they do not recollect how prices increased during the last war?

The Minister is the only person who thought that, and who made an order in that sense, a very silly order.

The Deputy is trying to introduce a red herring. He is a specialist in red herrings, but that particular red herring will not run.

I never knew a herring to run. It might swim.

We made a stand-still order in regard to certain commodities, and I think we were justified in doing so. I think every section of the people approved of our action and considered it to be in their interests. It is quite right to say that we could not adhere to that stand-still order. It was not possible to maintain, throughout the whole period of the war, the same level of prices as existed here before the war. But we made that order and said that we were going to maintain it with respect to every commodity covered by the order until a case for modifying the order had been made. A case for modifying that order was made quite soon in respect to a number of commodities. I have no doubt that we have not yet reached the upward limit of prices, but I do not think that the upward movement of prices will be anything so serious as in the last war. I do not think it will be impossible for us to devise ways and means of keeping prices down, not merely by the limitation of profits but also by the regulation of methods of production and methods of importation and distribution of commodities so as to eliminate unnecessary costs.

You are going to keep wages down in any case.

If we are going to deal in a proper manner with the situation surely we should have from the members of the House, the responsible representatives of the people who sit here, even though they speak for irresponsible Parties, some appreciation of the fact that the control of price movements has got to be put on a sensible and rational basis and should not merely be made the shuttlecock of Party politics. Deputy Dillon and Deputy O'Sullivan can get all the political kudos they want by representing that the Government alone is responsible for the adverse consequences of the war. The foolish people who are likely to believe them will probably vote for them in any case. They are welcome to any support that they can get in that way. We do not want it. We want the support of the intelligent people of the country who know that these adverse conditions are the inevitable result of the war and that the responsibility of the Government is, not to prevent them, but to regulate conditions so as to ensure that the normal life of the country and the interests of the people will be affected to the smallest possible degree. Deputy Norton spoke yesterday on the question of unemployment. The speech we had from Deputy Norton was one we heard frequently before from the same Deputy.

What about the plan which you had under which no one was to remain unemployed? You were going to bring back all the emigrants, although your colleague said they should not be brought back.

Does Deputy Norton seriously believe that the problem of unemployment in conditions of war-time can be met by the Government to any extent whatever without some increase in Government expenditure? Is that a serious contention made by the leader of a presumably responsible Party? Does he think it is going to be possible for us to regulate the conduct of Government services which affect unemployment so as to minimise the effects of the unemployment resulting from the war without imposing new burdens on the people?

The war has been on only for two months.

Nevertheless the revenue we are now seeking by these taxes will be required to finance these services for the next 12 months. Does he not agree that additional revenue will be required to minimise the effects of unemployment——

You have been at it seven years and you have not done it. Seven years was not long enough.

The Deputy is merely dodging my question. He cannot face the question without wriggling.

Do not be vain; there is nobody listening to you.

The Deputy is obviously listening to me. Will the Deputy listen for just one minute?

Only just a minute.

Does Deputy Norton seriously think that it would be possible for the Government to expand Governmental services that affect employment without increasing the national revenue? There is a question which can be answered by a simple "yes" or "no".

I shall answer that.

I think it is quite clear that if the Government is going to deal with the problem of war-time unemployment on any scale at all, it will be necessary to expand national revenue and to impose new taxes for that purpose. Deputy Norton promised his co-operation but his co-operation was not worth the breath in which it was uttered.

Co-operation for what purpose?

I could imagine Deputy Norton, as the leader of a Labour Party, coming to the House to protest against a particular tax, a tax on sugar or tobacco, and saying that it was likely to press heavily on the working classes, but it was not to one tax that the Deputy objected. He objected to every single one of these taxes. In the case of the increase in the income tax, it is not usual to see the representatives of labour in this or any other Parliament voting blithely against an increase in income tax designed for the purpose of maintaining existing social services or expanding employment.

Or for the low wage policy of this Budget.

I know of course that the Deputy and every member of the Labour Party at every public meeting they address will be denying the action they took yesterday. They will try and conceal it, but the record of this House is there and they will not be able to deny it.

If the Minister were to address a public meeting in the City of Dublin now, he would not have many bands.

The Deputy cannot shout me down here.

The Minister is trying to shout him down.

I happen to be on my feet at the moment and I am entitled to speak. Deputy Norton is not. I will speak in spite of the Deputy's unmannerly interruptions. The Minister for Finance, and every member of the Government, are trying to get an intelligent approach to these war problems. I realise that it is going to be difficult to get that; that it will be a much more popular line for the members of the Labour Party to go out to working-class people in every constituency and say: "If prices are going up and if new taxes are necessary to maintain the Government services: if, apart altogether from taxation, the cost of living is going to rise, then you must go out and get higher wages to compensate you for that increase in the cost of living."

We have not been afraid to take an unpopular stand against our workers.

I am not asking the Deputy to take an unpopular stand, but I am asking him to consider this question seriously.

We quite realise our responsibilities.

We can, if we follow a policy of inflation, endeavour to conceal the effect of rising prices. We can do that by inflating wages, salaries and profits, but if we do we will get into the position in which we were in the last war when prices were sky-rocketting without any improvement at all in the standard of living, and without any benefit resulting to anybody in the country. If we were to do that we would simply be creating a situation which inevitably was going to mean a period of deep depression following the war, making the attempt to put economic conditions back upon a rational basis extremely dificult. Cannot we learn a lesson from the last war? If we are to follow an inflation policy now, we are going to get after this war precisely the same consequences that we got after the last war, and from some of those consequences the country has not recovered yet. Is it not possible in the light of our experience to devise a different policy now?

Those who had control of Governments in this or any other country during the last war had not got the benefit of the experience that we have. There had not been any great war in Europe for almost a century before it. There has been one within a quarter of a century in our time, one through which everyone of us has passed. The experience of it has not yet been forgotten. Cannot we turn that experience to our advantage? That is all that we are asking. We do not suggest that there should be an absolute barrier to an improvement in the conditions of any class of workers, any class of business persons or any class of public servants, but we do ask that the ultimate effects of any general upward movement of profits, salaries or wages should be taken into account by those who advocate it. If we get an upward movement in salaries, wages or profits then, inevitably, the increase in prices which we have experienced so far is going to be a mere bagatelle compared to the increase in prices that we are going to experience before the war is over. We can control prices and prevent that inflation taking place. We can protect the economic organisation of this country against those dire consequences which the last war was responsible for if we approach the subject intelligently. That is all we ask. We do not ask the Parties opposite to cease protecting the special interests that they were sent here to represent. but we do ask them to protect those special interests in such a manner as will conform to some general national plan, and thereby get us through this war with the least possible economic damage. We cannot avoid economic damage; we cannot afford certain losses—and we have experienced some of those losses already—but we can minimise their effects if we approach the problems created by this war in an intelligent way without all this Party bickering, personal abuse and gross misrepresentation which we have experienced in the last few years.

The Minister should control his own temper.

My temper is all right.

Better than the prices?

Perhaps even more so, because there is no external cause affecting my temper. There are external causes affecting prices. My purpose in getting up was to expose all this insincerity, and to ask for a sincere and intelligent approach to our problems. It is nonsense to suggest that we can avoid new taxes, that we can avoid some upward movement in prices. It is nonsense to suggest that in the circumstances of this war we can avoid some disturbance of our employment situation, but we can minimise, by intelligent action, the consequences of the war in any one of these directions. It is not in the national interest that any Deputy here, and particularly the leaders of Parties, should seek to convey to the people that the imposition of new tax burdens is avoidable. It is not avoidable.

Even if we got all the economies possible without seriously interfering with the efficiency of the Government machine, and even if we drastically cut down the size of the Civil Service or the salaries of civil servants, nevertheless, new taxes will still be necessary.

What about all that was squandered on A.R.P. which is suspended now?

I hope that if ever there is an air-raid in this country the first bomb drops near Deputy Davin without hurting him. He will then run as fast as he can to this House for the purpose of abusing the Government for not having had an air-raid shelter built specially around him. It is quite irresponsible to suggest that an upward movement in prices can be avoided. It cannot be avoided. We can control that movement to some extent, but not entirely. Those who seek to make a stick out of that upward movement to beat the Government with are not serving the national interest.

It is true that during the course of the past two months I have tried, by various statements I made here, to prevent any panic arising either in respect of the price of commodities or the supply of them. When I spoke here about the supplies of sugar and the price of sugar I did not say anything that was not strictly accurate. I endeavoured to make the situation look as bright as possible so that there would be the least possible interference with the normal conduct of trade. It is desirable that we should endeavour to see that there is the least possible interference with the normal conduct of trade, because the effectiveness of our measures, and their ability to ensure that there will be no dislocation in respect of the main classes of commodities that our people require, depend entirely upon the elimination of panic of all kinds, I think Deputies when speaking on these matters, should keep that in mind.

There is one further matter that I want to refer to. The Minister for Finance announced here yesterday that the circumstances of the Exchequer would make it necessary for us to go to the people for a new loan within the near future. The success of that loan will be of vital importance to this country—not to the Government—but of vital importance to the country in giving it resources to carry through the war. It is desirable that it should be made clear that that loan will be a perfectly sound investment for the people of this country. Deputy Dillon spoke here to-day about national bankruptcy. I wonder did he deliberately choose the time of the announcement of the flotation of a national loan as the appropriate occasion for making one of his tirades about national bankruptcy?

I learn no lessons from the Minister who is a master of that craft.

The Deputy chooses the announcement of the making of a national loan as the time for making one of his periodical tirades about bankruptcy.

The Minister forgets that on the very day the first national loan was announced he made a statement that he and his colleagues when they got into office would repudiate that national loan.

This country will be bankrupt only when it ceases to be able to pay its way. This country will have earned the title of bankrupt if, in any one year or for any reasonable period of time, we do not make a serious effort to meet our outgoings out of revenue. It is because the country is not bankrupt that we are floating this loan. It is because the country will not be allowed to become bankrupt that we are making these proposals of new taxes and it is because these new taxes are necessary to meet our Exchequer outgoings that we are asking the Dáil to pass them. So long as the people of this country provide the revenue which it is necessary to provide to carry on the work of the country, this country will not be bankrupt and it is not going to be bankrupt. I can tell Deputy Dillon and other Deputies that by a conservation of our resources we will keep this country from being bankrupt. I tell the Deputy now that it is not serving any purpose to suggest the contrary. The administration of the finances of this country is being carried on within the limits of our national income. The purpose for which this loan is going to be floated is one that proves, instead of bankruptcy, our national solvency. I hope we will get from those who have studied our resources and those who know the position of the country to-day the support that is necessary to make this loan a success.

At a time of crisis and at a time of great national concern we have had to listen to one of the most reckless swashbuckler speeches ever delivered by a member of a Government in any Parliament in the world.

Deputy Norton used to open all his speeches against me with the very same phrase.

Oh! The Minister remembers it.

The Deputy's oratory makes a deep impression on my memory.

Deputy Norton objects to interruptions.

I do not mind interruptions if there is any grain of intelligence in them but there is none in that interruption by the Minister. We have listened to the most reckless and——

Swashbuckler speech——

Yes, if you like, swashbuckler speech that has ever been delivered by a supposedly responsible Minister in any national Parliament. The Minister charges Deputy Dillon with trying to sabotage the National Loan, and then after he has indulged in a tornado of abuse of everybody and every Party in the House, except his own Party, the Minister winds up like a cooing dove. He has indulged in this tornado of abuse of every Party except his own Party whose views are expressed in silence. We do not know what these views are but after indulging in a reckless and irresponsible statement the Minister then winds up like a cooing dove. He realises apparently that that kind of arrant nonsense is not the kind of talk that will pay the Minister on the eve of issuing a National Loan. I hope somebody, with more sense and responsibility than the Minister for Supplies has displayed this evening, will make it clear that, no matter what differences we may have, there is to be none of that kind of irresponsible abuse such as we have listened to this evening from the Minister for Supplies.

I think every Party in the House has offered to co-operate with the Government in the solution of the problems confronting the country. But by that co-operation we do not mean that everybody is to line up behind the Government in any crazy policy which it wishes to pursue or that every Party is going to support the Government in, unnecessarily, increasing prices or that every Party has decided to set its face against any attempt by the workers to secure better wages and better conditions in order to meet the rise in prices. Co-operation can mean something else. It can mean an exchange of opinion. It can mean an understanding on broad issues. It can mean an understanding on broad differences. But if we are to judge by the statement of the Minister for Supplies this evening, his conception of it is that everybody must swallow what he means in his crazy moments and in the crazy measures that he is putting forward. If one does not do all that the Minister means by co-operation then one is accused by the Minister of trying to sabotage the country. If the Government wanted co-operation, somebody ought to suppress his passion for making these kind of speeches, which are more worthy of the military figures which strut the European stage to-day than they are of a Minister in a democratic Parliament. Perhaps the Minister would like to be strutting the European stage to-day. Perhaps the Minister would like to be there in a military capacity. Perhaps his talents are lost in the wings. Maybe the Minister thinks he could make as satisfactory a mess of the European stage as the military figures who strut it to-day are making. Would the Minister think of the story of the ox and the frog and leave the matter in that way. Let him remember that this is his domain here and that he has enough to do to prevent the poor of this country being exploited as they are being exploited to-day. The Minister's main problem ought to be to succour them from the worse effects of the crisis through which they are now passing. I said yesterday, and it will bear repetition probably, that this Budget suffers from two main defects; that it displays a lamentable want of understanding and a complete lack of imagination. I think the imposition of new taxation in any circumstances is a matter of importance and a matter which should receive very considerable attention in the Legislative Assembly of any democratic country. In my view there are wider and deeper issues involved in this Budget than the imposition of taxes on this or that commodity. I do not intend to spend any time in analysing methods of alternative taxation. I desire instead to get down to the deep and fundamental problems which are untouched in this Budget. What are the deep and fundamental problems confronting us to-day? One would imagine that one who has been seven years a Minister and who, notwithstanding the famous plan, has 90,000 unemployed and other substantial numbers deprived of unemployment assistance through his period orders, would devote some time and attention to these very serious problems.

Notwithstanding the aid of rigid administration of the Unemployment Assistance Acts, and a resort to the expediency of employment period orders, we now have not less than 90,000 people registered as unemployed at the employment exchanges, and, by the end of this month, or certainly by the end of next month, we will have not less than 120,000 people registered at the employment exchanges. You might, of course, take some thousands off by subjecting them to the humiliation of the notorious rotational schemes, under which men get three or four days' employment and have to wait a fortnight before they are paid for that work, but the main fact remains that, apart from that miserable dole for three or four weeks, you have 120,000 unemployed people in the country, and you are absolutely powerless to-day to make any serious contribution to the solution of that problem. The Minister now talks about a war-time plan to deal with unemployment and avoid its growth. We used to have a peace-time plan in 1932, and under that plan we were going to have no unemployment in the country. We were going, in fact, to have to send to the United States to bring back the emigrants. One Minister, when his attention was called to the extent of the unemployment problem in the country at the time, said: "Oh, well, is it not good that we should have so many of them available to do all the work which the Government is going to provide for them?" Those were the proposals and the plans in 1932, in peace time. Seven years of peace have intervened since the enunciation of that policy. At the end of that seven years' peace we find the Minister for Industry and Commerce, his predecessor, and the Government generally, absolutely incapable of making any impression on that problem, or contributing any sensible or constructive proposal for its solution.

I want to ask at this stage if we will now be told, at the beginning of the third month of this war—a war in which we are not actively engaged— whether there are any proposals under consideration for dealing with that vast army of unemployed people. The imposition of taxation is a relative thing; in the main the difficulties can be surmounted. The imposition of taxation on luxuries presses with even less vigour and rigour. But here is a basic problem; we have approximately 120,000 unemployed people, and it is not too much to expect that, on the occasion of a Supplementary Budget, we should hear from the Government— a Government which at one time had a plan to cure unemployment—what they propose to do in the third month of the war to bring some ray of hope and some offer of employment to that vast army of unemployed people who have continued under their administration for the last seven years, or are we to assume, this Christian and vaunted Constitution notwithstanding, that we are to have 120,000 untouchables in the country, people who are always to be unemployed, people who are to cultivate in their own minds the pagan philosophy that it is their inexorable destiny to be always idle and always hungry? Somebody from the Government Benches ought to give us intelligence instead of nonsense; somebody ought to give us light instead of heat, and tell us definitely whether we must now face up to the fact that during the war as before the war we are going to have a permanent unemployment problem of 120,000 people in this country.

A figure of that kind, in our population and in the circumstances of our State, would be grave enough to warrant the mobilisation of all the resources which this State has at its command, even if that were the entire extent of the problem. But when we remember that there are over 90,000 people, apart from the 120,000 living on the miserable pittances which they receive as home help, pittances which are buying less for them to-day than they bought three months ago, we can get some greater appreciation of the magnitude of our destitution problem in this country. When we go further and scratch the surface still deeper, we find thousands of people living on the miserable pittances which they get under the non-contributory section of the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act. All that mass waste of energy conjured up by the picture of 120,000 unemployed people is a bankruptcy if not in finance at least in intelligence. Those 120,000 people are capable not merely of creating a means of sustenance for themselves but of adding to the pool of national activity and national wealth, if we only had the courage and the vision to devise a means whereby their energies, their brain and brawn might be used to operate on the abundant but sadly neglected resources of this country. It is criminal to imagine that we in this country should meekly tolerate a continuous and gigantic unemployment problem of the dimensions I have indicated, but it is a thousand times worse when we remember the hopelessly inadequate rates of benefit which are offered to these people under a Constitution which is being constantly recommended to us as enshrining the highest virtues of Christianity.

In my constituency, with the exception of one town—one town in two counties—the maximum rate of unemployment assistance benefit is 14/- per week. A man may have five, seven, eight or ten children, and he will not get more than 14/- per week. Can anyone imagine a man with a wife and six children trying to live on that pittance to-day, with sugar 4½d. per lb. and with butter 1/6 per lb.? Yet, instead of devoting some attention to measures to relieve the plight of those unfortunate families, the Minister for Supplies this evening, obviously with that problem far away from either his mind or his heart, indulges in a diatribe which is a disgrace in an emergency such as that through which we are passing. We could get no light from the Minister for Supplies this evening as to what he intended to do in respect of those who are compelled to live on this maximum of 14/- per week. They are apparently to go through the war enjoying no more benefit than 14/- a week. That is the maximum for a man and his wife and any number of children. If they try to do anything to improve their lot, we were told in the martial tones of the Minister for Finance that the Government is determined to set its face against the efforts of any class to secure compensation for the rise in prices.

Then the Deputy will vote against the new taxes?

Not even the unemployed, pressed down to pauperised standards of existence, dare to ask the Government in an orderly if organised fashion to compensate them for the rise in prices without feeling that they are compelled to confront the Pharaohlike face of the Government, which is determined to set that face against any effort of those people to get another spoonful of sugar, or another "knifeful" of butter for their bread. Is there any remedy for the plight of people such as that? No Minister has yet addressed himself to that problem. No Minister is apparently prepared to face up to the responsibilities of that problem. Instead, we get a lot of dialectical nonsense such as we listened to this evening from the Minister for Supplies in a speech which indicates that, so far as he is concerned, he does not now know—no matter how much he may have professed to know in other years—the seriousness of the economic problems still confronting the country.

If that ocean of poverty and misery and destitution were even static it would be bad enough, but it is not static. In the past few months large numbers of Irishmen and women have been coming back from Britain because of the events in that country. More and still more will come back, I prophesy, as Great Britain raises the conscription age. Every move of the conscription age upwards by one year will fill the boats and trains labelled for Ireland.

That ought to be a matter of gladness; it ought to be the occasion for the administration of heart balm to the present Minister for Supplies. At one time he felt we might have to go to America for our exiles. Now we can get them much nearer; we can get them from Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow. They will not have the worry of coming long distances over the seas; they can come back overnight. One would imagine that with all the work he was going to make available for them, it would be an occasion for pleasure if they came back. But the Minister for Industry and Commerce went to the Chamber of Commerce a few days ago and, if one is to judge by the speech he delivered there, it would seem that he deplored the fact that these people were coming back. Apparently they ought to stay in Britain; they ought not to come back here and upset the equilibrium; they ought to stay in Britain and be conscripted and possibly used as cannon fodder in a war with which they have no concern. At all events, according to the Minister, they ought not to cause any annoyance by gate-crashing on the country that gave them birth.

What provision is going to be made for those returning emigrants? None of them, under our unemployment assistance legislation, can obtain any benefit whatever. We still have a serious unemployment problem, which is going to be very much aggravated by the return, in the next few months, as I will prophesy, of a still larger number of emigrants.

And the Deputy wants to accentuate that problem

I do not, but I want to allow every Irishman to live in Ireland, and if, for the moment, he happens to be in Glasgow, I would let him come back to Dublin, and if he happens to be in Belfast, I would let him come back to Dublin if he so desires, and I would insist that the other cities and towns in this country should also be compelled to take their quota of the men and women born in this country, and who must always owe their first allegiance to this country.

The rest of Ireland ought to be very grateful to Deputy Norton for his consideration.

That is one of the pointless interruptions that the Minister is always making, to his own discredit.

The Deputy seems to think Dublin belongs to him.

Maybe I would have much more claim to it than the Minister —but I will not press that claim now.

I am asking myself, as I think of these matters, what contribution this Budget of 25 pages of neostyle matter, half of which is filled with very fallacious reasoning, is going to make towards the solution, for instance, of the serious unemployment problem that exists in the country. I prophesy this, and I claim no patent rights for what I am saying, that under this Budget every man hungry and impoverished will be just as hungry, and probably more so, this time 12 months. I submit that there is no plan in this Budget to relieve the serious unemployment that exists; that the Government have no intention of grappling with the existing unemployment and poverty. Instead, their whole policy appears to be that it is much cheaper for the State, the Exchequer, because that is their connotation of what the State means, to allow these people to remain hungry than to bestir themselves and try to plan a national life, based on using the creative energies of these people.

This Budget indicates a complete bankruptcy of economic policy. It may raise additional taxation on beer, on spirits, on the large sums left by people who die, on tobacco and on sugar. It may, therefore, enable the Minister for Finance always to have a credit at the bank; but there are much more fundamental issues, much more important issues to the people than merely the state of the national exchequer at the headquarters of the national treasury. One can have a balanced budget, but that balanced budget may cover a wide area of poverty. You can have abundance of wealth on the one hand and abysmal and indescribable poverty on the other hand. What the Government appear to be concerned with in this Budget is merely to balance it on strict orthodox lines, and they have no concern at all for the vast mass of poverty and destitution which exists under their very eyes.

It is a long cry back, it is a long road back, to the time when, in 1932, we were told the Government had a plan to cure unemployment. All that was necessary in order to ensure the complete elimination of unemployment as a national evil was to mark a ballot paper for the Fianna Fáil candidates of the period. We were told of the famous plan; we were told of the magical effects which would follow its operation. But in the last seven years we have seen no evidence of the plan, and even in this Supplementary war-time Budget you give us no evidence of the Government's intention either to try that plan or some other plan in a comprehensive way to deal with the problems which, in 1932, they told us they were just bursting to handle.

There are, of course, other grave problems which ought to get the serious consideration of anybody concerned with the preservation of the Irish nation and the promotion of the wellbeing of its people. Three of the factors making for national decay, three of the factors which have gone hand in hand with the decay of nations in every other part of the world where that decay was witnessed, are present in this country to-day. There is a diminution in the number of young persons in the country; there is an increase in the number of old persons, and we have to-day the lowest marriage rate of any white nation on the face of God's earth. Even one not experienced in economic and social conditions can realise the significance of tendencies of that kind, yet there is not the slightest indication, even in the first three months of a European war which is bound to have repercussions upon us, that there is a glimmer of a plan by the Government to solve serious social and economic evils of that kind.

That does not end by any means the plight of the people, the hardships which our people are enduring. We have seen in the past few years a very substantial increase in the cost-of-living index figure, which in itself is explained by the fact that most of the staple articles of food have substantially increased in recent years. The benefits, such as they may be, under the Unemployment Assistance Acts, the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Acts and the Old Age Pensions Acts are all of a fixed, static character, and while these benefits, which one might describe more as pittances than benefits, have remained static, the prices of the commodities which those people must purchase in order to live have shown a distinct upward, tendency.

In the past few months sugar has risen; flour has risen; coal has risen and milk, bread and eggs have also risen. Bacon is now just a memory, so far as the ordinary working man in this country is concerned. With a substantial rise in prices on the one hand, low pittances in the form of State benefits on the other hand, and a grave unemployment problem, is there anybody on the Government Benches who will say that the economic position of this country to-day is not such as should cause grave concern to those responsible for the administration of the Government to-day?

We can, of course, do two things in a situation of that kind. We can allow things to drift and drift and drift and, as a legislative Assembly, we can pass on the burden and the hardship to those whose backs are incapable of bearing them. We can allow all the unemployed to continue unemployed. We can allow 90,000 people to regard the home assistance officer as their fairy godfather or their American uncle. We can allow the widows and orphans to exist on the miserable pittances which they get to-day. We can allow the emigrants to come back and do nothing for them, and we can preserve a veneer of solvency and respectability by what is described as balancing our Budget. There are dangers along that road. There are abundant perils for the State along that road. Men and women will not tolerate a condition of permanent impoverishment. Men and women will not tolerate conditions of that kind, unless they are deficient of all spirit, without making sturdy protest against a condition of affairs which condemns them to that unnecessary poverty and unnecessary want.

We can take the road, therefore, of allowing them to suffer with the utmost indifference on our part, or we can turn from that path and make some serious effort to plan our national life on a basis which will offer to these people some ray of hope and some prospect of rescue from conditions which they have endured all too long. If we wish to take the latter course we must plan our national economy in something other than the haphazard manner that has distinguished it for the past 17 years, and we must exercise the most rigid determination to utilise the nation's resources in raw materials and its credit-creating capacity in order to ensure that we can put into productive employment the maximum number of persons whose energies we are capable of utilising and provide decent means of sustenance for those for whom we are unable to provide employment.

I should have imagined that in a war-time Budget of this kind, which is sprinkled with phrases indicating danger, which is well punctuated by viewpoints indicating that there are serious times ahead, a Government, which at one time professed to be a radical Government, would have endeavoured to give some consideration to the question of making a virtue of necessity and that they would have endeavoured to say: "In this crisis, which is not of our making, a crisis which is forced upon us, a crisis which may cause serious internal economic dislocation for our people, we shall try to use all our credit-creating capacity and our permanent position as a creditor nation to ward off the worst effects of this crisis and utilise all our resources to put our people into productive employment."

I think there is no doubt on the part of any man who can even see mountains, much less molehills, that in the next 12 months, if this war continues, a very serious unemployment problem will be forced upon our people here. If we had only courage and vision and determination we would say that, as far as our powers permit, we shall not stand meekly by and allow the ravages of unemployment to come upon our people in an intensified manner by a Budget of this kind. We would say to the nation, "We are about to embark upon a period of peril and uncertainty for the nation. We are likely to be confronted with grave dangers. We fear that unemployment on a greater scale will be inevitable unless we plan to meet it." We would make a rousing appeal to the nation to rally round the State, functioning through the popularly elected Government, in proposals designed to mobilise all the resources of the State and the credit of the State, to break with the laissez faire orthodox methods we have been pursuing in the past, to put people into productive employment, believing as we do that that is the best test of real national greatness and real prosperity in the long run.

Is there any difficulty to-day, for instance, in this State using its excellent position as a creditor nation to finance schemes of development? Per head of the population we are probably the greatest creditor nation in the world. Our external assets are not only considerable but our income from external assets is also very considerable. I would suggest that even now— and it may be easier to do it now than to do it later—that the Government, realising the dangers and the serious economic dislocation that lie ahead, should raise a very substantial development loan,—not on the basis, I might say, of paying the high ransom demanded by the banks—for the purpose of finding productive employment in the development of our resources and in the improvement of amenities of life in this country.

The expenditure of money, whether by the individual or by the nation, in the creation of new capital assets can never impair the solvency of the individual or undermine the stability of the national foundations. The expenditure of money for the provision of new houses not merely helps to eradicate slums and rain-soaked mud cabins throughout the country, it provides employment for building-trade operatives in the construction of houses. It does even more. It does what so many people omit to remember—it provides a market for all the things that the establishment of a home demands. Expenditure of money, therefore, on housing is the creation of a national asset and the financial stability of the nation would be in no way impaired by the expenditure of money on national work of that kind.

In respect of afforestation we have the melancholy distinction of being probably the most under-timbered country in Europe to-day, and that at a time when it is probably going to be more difficult to obtain timber for our internal requirements than it has ever been before. The employment of people on a comprehensive afforestation policy offers prospects of sustained employment for a substantial number of people for a very long time to come. While there would be no immediate dividends from an investment of that kind, posterity, who might well be expected to pay the cost of portion of the loan, would in the long run reap a very substantial harvest from the sowings which we would make to-day under a national afforestation policy.

We have, too, a wide field for national endeavour in the matter of drainage schemes. The present Minister for Industry and Commerce at one time expressed the view that if we drained the country too well the herbage of the middle plain might disappear and there might be some serious national catastrophe arising from that fact. I think there is not a farmer whose lands are flooded, particularly at the present time, who would not be prepared to risk the loss of herbage if he could only see green grass on his lands again, or if he could only manage to get potatoes into the places where the wild duck now find a nesting place. Drainage and the improvement of our lands offer a fruitful field for national endeavour. The development of our peat resources at a time when we must import most of our fuel is also obviously a matter which ought to receive careful and expeditious consideration by the Government.

While our mineral resources have often been adversely commented upon as not being capable of exploitation on a merchantable basis, now when minerals are fetching enormously high prices, it might well repay the State to exploit the development of our mineral resources when they can be made commercially merchantable, and when we can, in the emergency situation, get high prices to enable us to explore and exploit to the fullest such mineral resources as we have.

The policy which pursues a road of that kind, creating new capital assets against the issue of new money, is at least a policy which will not be found to be unsound except among those who still have the money conceptions of 50 or 100 years ago. Along that road, at all events, there lies work for a vast army of unemployed people, and work for a vast army of unemployed people means that, with money in their pockets, they in turn will create a demand on industry and agriculture to deliver goods to the extent of their wages which neither industry nor agriculture is being asked to deliver to-day. Of course we can take the other road. It is the easy and the lazy road. It is the road which will multiply the unemployed and which will cause hunger marches and create strife and unrest, and, when that continues for a long period, you probably will not have a choice between hunger marches and unrest, but the nation and the organised State will probably find itself confronted with tens of thousands of people sick and weary to death of Governmental failure to make provision for them, and their methods of agitation may not be just as placid or as tame as the more docile hunger marches of the past few years.

Instead, however, of being offered a policy with some vision and courage in it, with some determination to make war on the worst evil that besets mankind, namely, poverty, this Budget offers us, instead of any wise, constructive and comprehensive expenditure, an economy which takes the form of cutting down services already substantially below the requirements of our people to-day. This Budget is an economy Budget. I do not believe that the country has been told fully the economy measures which will be put into operation under the guise of the language in this Budget statement. The war situation, instead of being utilised as something to organise our resources, is going to be utilised as something which will take away from the poor people of the country many of the social services, or in one way or another prune the social services to make them less valuable than they are to-day. Twelve months from the date of the introduction of this Budget people living in Merrion Square will be living as comfortably as they are to-day; but people living in Gloucester Street and the rural portions of the country will be hungrier than they are to-day, and all because this Budget merely tinkers with the problem which ought to be faced up to in a courageous and statesman-like way.

I just make one appeal to the Minister for Finance. I want to say that in my view there is disillusionment for the people and the Government behind a Budget of that kind. It takes no notice of the realities of the situation. It takes no comprehensive measure of the problems that are likely to confront us. It displays no adequate appreciation of the repercussions in this country of the conflict in Central Europe to-day. Our people will not be saved, or the worst effects of the war mitigated for them by a Budget introduced in language of that kind and in a 25-page speech to raise £600,000.

I do not believe there is any solace for the people in a Budget of that kind; nor do I believe its terms or the policy that it envisages offer the slightest hope to the people of the country. I suggest that not many more months should be allowed to pass before the Government, recognising the grave peril of our weak economic structure, should plan the measures which are necessary to save the nation from the worst effects of this appalling catastrophe which has overtaken Europe, and that they should come back to the House with a policy calculated to ensure the fullest possible development of the nation and appealing at the same time for the co-operation of all Parties and all citizens in a policy ensuring that none in this country will have too much until all will have enough. If the Government would only adopt a policy of that kind, I think they would capture the imagination of the people. This Budget will be assailed by the rich and the poor, by the poor as much as the rich. What it will mean to the rich is no concern of mine. It means nothing to the poor except additional taxation. To them also, whether they are unemployed or living on a miserable pittance, it means "Carry on in the same poverty-stricken way you have tried to carry on for many years past."

We are vigorously opposing these new impositions on the taxpayers from this side of the House because we believe that the existing burdens of taxation are already considerably beyond the capacity of our people to bear. These burdens are having a disastrous effect on our industries, and particularly on our vital industry, agriculture. I should like to know from the Minister what consideration has been given by the Government to the condition of people in rural parts and to agriculture, as to its capacity to bear the present intolerable burdens, and what effect these burdens are having on it. What effect are the new and increased burdens likely to have on it? Was the mind of the Government to continue piling on intolerable burdens made up in some room in the Department of Finance without consulting people who are in closer touch with the people? Have the back benchers of the Government Party been consulted or was their advice sought, at any time, as to the position in rural Ireland? In trying to defend the situation that exists, and the necessity for increased taxation, the Minister for Supplies, when criticising the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, had asked Deputies if they appreciated the difficulties that war brought about. The Minister went on to point to the cost of providing new services which had to be created, and that were necessary in the emergency. The situation, to my mind, is a complex one, apart altogether from the war.

I wish to stress this fact: that this country was slowly but surely moving towards a crisis and that the present war situation has simply accelerated it. The former Minister for Finance, who is now Minister for Industry and Commerce, admitted that the position here was serious without the new war development, because in the Budget that he introduced last May he referred to the stringent and straitened position that existed. I want to point out that the present emergency is not altogether responsible for the grave situation that exists here, but that it is the policy of the Government for the last seven years which has led up to that situation. How has agriculture fared during the period of office of the present Government? How can the Government justify the suggestion that agriculture is in a sound position, when the agricultural output here is compared with the output in other countries during the past six or seven years, or when the trend of our agricultural output is compared even with the position in Northern Ireland during the same period?

We find that our vital industry is at present in a desperate condition. It is so weak and so depressed that it is facing a very grave crisis. I have no hesitation in saying that that has been brought about by the policy of the present Government. Prior to 1930-31 the trend and the value of agricultural output showed a definite increase year after year. Although the world generally was then slipping into a trough of depression the economic position here was extraordinarily well maintained. The present Government came into office on a dishonest subterfuge. They had been telling the people that they were overtaxed, that taxation here then was beyond their capacity to bear, and that their first duty, if they were returned to office, would be to reduce it by £2,000,000. The people accepted that promise and the Government was put into office with the disastrous results that we all know of, that there is an intolerable burden of taxation that they cannot bear. A great deal has been said about that both inside and outside this House.

Many solutions have been offered in order to stem the flight of the rural population from the land. There as been talk about the drabness of rural life, and of the necessity of improving social conditions, and making rural life attractive. One solution offered was the formation of parish councils. Do we not all know that the one and only solution of our agricultural problems, and the one solution that will keep our people in rural Ireland, is to make agriculture profitable? If that were done the people would be well able to look after the social side. The Government appears to be concerned all the time to pile on new imposts but, as far as I can see, no attempt has been made to strengthen our agricultural position, so that it might weather the depression and the difficulties with which it is faced. In view of past, experience, the present should be a period that would offer a measure of prosperity to agriculture, as opportunities should be there that we should be able to avail of. Some people thought some months ago that opportunities for the development of our agricultural industries might be forthcoming, but the position appears to be vastly different in the last few weeks.

If we take the price of raw material for the production of agricultural produce we find that meal has, with the sanction of the Minister for Supplies, been increased by £2 a ton during the past eight or ten days. The price of Indian meal is approximately from £11 10s. to £12 per ton. Side by side with that, if we take the price of live stock, it will be found, having regard to the cost of raw materials, that farmers could not continue to produce at a profit while such prices are in operation. We have asked that representations should be made by our customers in Great Britain to the responsible Minister there in connection with the price of eggs, bacon and live stock. Even as late as yesterday Deputy Dillon requested the Minister for Agriculture to make the right representations himself and to go and see the British Minister for Agriculture about the question of the price of eggs.

I presume the Deputy realises that the matter under discussion is a Budget, which deals with taxation and expenditure?

Yes, Sir, I realise that, but I am trying to point out that this is a burden that our people are unable to bear at the present time; that it is an unjust impost, and that other ways and means ought to be found—and we believe that other ways and means could be found—to carry on government in this country without these new impositions. For that reason, I would point out that more activity and a greater concern should be displayed by responsible Ministers to secure for the people of this country the greatest possible advantage in the market that we have to enable us to sell our surplus produce to that market, and that it is not good policy, and that it is not treating the people of this country in the way that they deserve to be treated, to be sending junior civil servants across the Channel to deal with these matters.

That is a matter of administration.

Yes, Sir, but I think that, when we are taking part in negotiations of this kind——

May I submit to the Deputy, through you, Sir, that that is a very ill-advised remark to make. The officers in question have very difficult negotiations to make, and I think it would be very detrimental to these negotiations if it were to be understood that these officers were merely junior civil servants. They are the most responsible civil servants in the State.

Are we to understand that a junior civil servant has no sense of responsibility?

No. Deputy O'Higgins, perhaps, has more experience than Deputy Hughes, and I am sure he will understand that, if you are conducting negotiations with officials on the other side, you should not impugn the seniority or authority of the people who are representing you.

I am not so devoid of intelligence as to suggest that.

I did not suggest that, and I am sorry if the Deputy regards it in that way.

However, I should like the Minister to deny, here and now, that on any occasion a junior official was sent across.

That also is a matter of administration.

Well, Sir, it was raised by the Minister.

It was raised by the Deputy.

What I am suggesting, Sir, is that it is the duty of the Minister himself to go across.

The Chair suggests that it is incumbent on the Deputy to come to the matter of taxation and expenditure, and not that of the Department of the Minister for Agriculture.

What I am trying to make clear is that I want to protest— and I am taking this opportunity of protesting most emphatically—against the burdens of taxation that are imposed on our people down through the country. I believe that a very determined effort should have been made to effect economies that would cover any deficiencies that might arise from taxation as a result of the war situation. We admit that there are serious financial and economic problems to be solved here, but it appears to me that the only solution the Government have for any or for all of these problems is new and increasing burdens of taxation, and that they are placing burdens on the people at a time when these burdens are far beyond the capacity of the people. I think that the Government have a particular flair, an extraordinary capacity, for imposing unjust and intolerable burdens. That seems to be the only solution they have for the problems that confront them, but I am pointing out that opportunities have been lost, or have not been used to the best advantage, to put our people in a position to take advantage of the situation that presents itself at the moment.

If we have to bear these burdens, and if we have to sell our produce and our live stock at the present level, the cost of production must be borne in mind, and the cost of producing these things is directly affected by these imposts. It is not so much that the price of agricultural produce is wrong, or that it has been wrong at any time. The thing that matters is that the cost of production is wrong. There is the question of the farmer's overhead charges, his rates and taxes, and so on. That is the real position, and that is what the Government have deliberately ignored. Although they have been warned about that position time and time again, from these benches, they appear to turn their faces away from it. If there is going to be any real facing up to the situation that exists at the present time, that is the problem that has got to be tackled, and it has got to be tackled from the cost-of-production end, as far as agricultural production is concerned. There is only one way of making agriculture profitable, and that is by reducing the cost of production. Our agricultural people exist on a margin of profit that is shown between the cost of production and the price the farmer gets for his produce, and that margin of profit is narrowed down so much that the farmer cannot continue. That is a matter that ought to be the immediate concern of the Government. As far as I can see, since I came into this House, or in connection with this Budget, no Minister appears to be worrying about that position, and the people have borne the situation with singular patience, but they are very near the breaking point at the present time. We know that farmers are meeting all over the country and speaking about strikes and so on. Personally, I would not advise that sort of thing, and I do not think it is wise; but I do think the attitude of the Government is driving the farmers to contemplate the use of these weapons in their own defence. The sooner the Government realise that the solution of all these problems is not the imposition of new taxation, but that the real solution is by effecting economies, lightening the load and taking off the shackles and fetters that are holding down agriculture at the present time, the better. That is the real solution, and if the Government are not prepared to do that, then some people must be found to do it.

I am rather disappointed, Sir, at the course of this debate. I am rather disappointed that, in an Assembly of this kind, where are gathered representatives of all economic life in this country, representatives who, themselves, are engaged in the various phases of economic life, there is not more co-operation and more attempt at finding a fundamental remedy for the position of this country at the present time. My view may be pessimistic regarding this country. I hope my view will prove to be wrong but I regard the present position of the country with grave anxiety. I am afraid that despite what we hear about our being a creditor country, we are face to face with national bankruptcy and turmoil. There is no evidence in this Budget or in any contribution I have heard to the debate that the Government are facing up to that situation. The Government, without a war, took a very pessimistic view of national finance last spring when they introduced the Budget. They prepared the way for what we have now. Since then, there has been a change of Ministers. The present Minister for Finance quoted the last Minister for Finance. Our suggestion is that Ministers should come down to realities. The Minister for Agriculture has promised fixed prices for agricultural produce. I do not set any value on fixed prices—none whatever—because a price of 35/- a barrel for wheat may be a good price if the cost of production is the same as that of last year but the only guarantee any Minister or any Government can give of staple prices is to put the 120,000 who are idle working. That is the only guarantee of good prices. If these people are not working and if their numbers increase, where is the money to guarantee any price? You may fix a price for the other side but is it contemplated that if our army of unemployed swells and they are not able to buy, the Irish Government will do what an English Government did in the famine years—export the foodstuffs to get the fixed price? Let us face up to that situation.

I am probably more engaged in farming than in any other industry. I hope to pull my weight, if I live, in the farming industry this year but I am puzzled to know how we are going to get a return for our labour and for the capital which we are sinking in that industry now, notwithstanding promises of better prices, if this Budget be the best the Government is able to offer the nation. It was quite obvious that the war situation would affect the revenue of this State, but the State should have acted in a business-like way. When it was realised that certain sources of revenue would be affected, the Government should have asked themselves, as a businessman would, if they could tap other sources of revenue to compensate for the loss and, if they could not, they should have considered economy. Once economy is mentioned the Government flies off at a tangent and asks if we want to economise on social services. I say "no" but I suggest that the Government should stop playing at militarism—at an army, a navy and an air force—and should economise instead of imposing new taxation.

In what an appallingly unfinished state the Minister leaves the Supplementary Budget! He is banking on a deficit of £617,000. It may be more or less. That deficit is to be carried forward into next year, but there is no evidence that the economic stability of this country will be greater next year than it is this year. On the basis of the Minister's Budget, we shall face next year with a deficit of £617,000. We shall have to impose taxation to provide that £617,000, in respect of this year and then, if things do not become worse, to provide £617,000 for next year as well. What evidence is there that the Government is looking after the economic life of the country? Perhaps the Minister would consider how Britain has faced up to this situation. The last time this House met I asked the Minister to say who was responsible for the increase in the bank rate. The Minister said the Banks Standing Committee was responsible and that he had nothing to do with it. Here is what Britain did in the last war, as pointed out in a standard work by the Chairman of the Westminster Bank, who is also Chairman of the Committee of the London Clearing Banks, President of the Institute of Bankers, of the International Chamber of Commerce, and a Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge:

"It has been pointed out that, under the Currency and Bank-notes Act, 1914, there was no limit whatever to the discretion of the Treasury. Notes might be issued to any amount that the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day thought fit and no provision whatever was made for any gold backing."

Further, he says, on page 176:

"The control thus exercised over the power of the banks to restrict or extend their loans, though it depends ultimately on the restriction or extension of currency, is exercised directly through the power of the Bank of England to raise or lower its rate of discount."

Control of the bank rate is the steering wheel of the whole financial machine and, through the financial machine, the State. Yet, our Minister told this House and the country at our last meeting that he had no control over the bank rate. In these circumstances, are we not like a ship on a stormy sea without any control? We have unemployment increasing, credit being restricted, business contracting and rumblings of discontent everywhere.

And the Bank of England the boss.

And we are not concerned about it. The Minister— or the ex-Minister—for Finance will, I suppose, agree that the amount of currency represents the business activity of a country. Here was the position. We all remember, when the war broke out in 1914, how business jumped, how everybody was working. It was not a question of controlling prices, as everything was dear —labour was dear, food was dear, clothes were dear—but everybody had the money for them, everybody had constant work, good work at good wages. How was that done? Here is an indication that I would ask the ex-Minister for Finance to ponder over; he will get particulars that will build it up from the Banking Commission Report of 1926. In July, 1914, the bank issue in this country was £8,000,000; in December, 1914, it was £12,000,000 odd; in 1915, it was £16,000,000 odd; in 1916, £20,000,000 odd; 1917, £23,000,000 odd; 1918, it was nearly £32,000,000; in May, 1919, it was £32,000,000 odd; in October, 1919, there was the Treasury minute which directed the Bank of England to work back to the gold standard—consequently there was a contraction in the note issue. In 1920, it was £31,000,000; in 1921, it was £30,000,000. In addition to that we had, in 1914, the gold in the hands of the public, estimated, in the early part of 1914, at £2,500,000. There were Treasury notes in 1919 estimated at £30,000,000. The approximate currency in July, 1914, was £10,500,000; in 1919, it was £45,000,000; and in 1926— according to the Banking Commission Report—it was £17,000,000 in the Free State.

Now, there has been no material increase in the currency here since the outbreak of war. There has been a contraction of banker's credit. How can business men or farmers contemplate the future if the State that we are paying so much to keep up fails to look after such vital national interests as the banking, credit and currency interests? No other State in the world except this is left without banking control. I do not suggest that, at this stage, it would be wise—but neither do I suggest that it would be unwise—to take some steps that would expand the currency. As a matter of fact, I think it very essential that we should. The Minister for Finance informed the House to-day that it is necessary to borrow.

What did the British Chancellor of the Exchequer do when war broke out? There was somewhere between £200,000,000 and £250,000,000 of a gold backing to the note issue of Great Britain. He took that away and issued notes without any backing and increased the note issue to nearly £600,000,000, which is the note issue of Great Britain to-day. Without that increase it would have been absolutely impossible for England to get down to war work and make munitions. What is the effect of transferring the gold from the note cover to the equalisation exchange account? It means that the British Treasury hands to the Bank of England £600,000,000 of stamped paper for which the Bank of England must pay £600,000,000 in British securities and pay the dividends on those securities. The net result is that the British Government gets a free loan, on the credit of the British Empire, of £600,000,000 free of interest. We have about £11,000,000 of currency note issue here. If we were to take the British cover we have of that and sell it and put in Irish cover, it would have the effect of giving us a loan free of interest of £11,000,000. I cannot expect that the Minister for Finance will deal with a matter so complicated as this when he was able to brush aside the question of controlling the bank rate and to say, in effect, that it was no business of his. While the country puts up with it, the country must put up with suffering.

Take another indication of the state of the security of this country, even as viewed by Ministers themselves. When war broke out and the bank rate jumped up a couple of points, the Minister for Finance advanced the price of local loans from 4¾ per cent., which they stood at pre-war, to 5¾ per cent. Since then there have been two drops in the bank rate. The bank rate now is precisely what it was pre-war. Why should not the local loans rate be the same as it was pre-war? Is there any reason? Is there going to be another "rake-off"? I am sorry the Minister for Finance is not here, as I would like him to hear my strictures directly, such as they are, rather than that they would be conveyed to him. I have great respect for him and we are very good friends, I am glad to say, so that my criticism may be sharp but it will be honest.

The Minister, contrary to the advice of the Dublin Corporation, advised the City Manager to build 490 houses. We could not and we advised the City Manager that we would not take the responsibility for raising the money. Yet, under the Greater Dublin Act, we are obliged to find the money. After the failure of our loan last year, we could not undertake that responsibility and we told the City Manager so. The terms of that loan were arranged, not by the Corporation but over the heads of the Corporation, by the Minister for Local Government of the day (the present Minister for Finance) and the Minister for Finance of the day (the present Minister for Industry and Commerce), and we were told: "Here are the terms; take them or leave them." It rounded off at about 4¼ per cent. for the loan. We wanted £2,500,000 and would not get authority for it. We were prepared to go without any underwriting but we would not be allowed. The rate of interest that we would offer the public was fixed by them at about 4¼ per cent.

I am afraid the Deputy's illustration or indication of the financial status of the State is too detailed.

If it is, I will try to generalise it more. The point must be present in the Minister's mind—for I am quite sure that the Minister for Finance would be the last member of the Cabinet to throw, and I do not believe there is anyone who would want to throw an obstacle in the way of housing. He would be one of the last members of the House to throw a financial obstacle in the way of housing, and finance is the Hamlet of housing, and still maintain the price of money at 5½ per cent. when the county council of which I am a member can get overdraft accommodation at the bank at 4 per cent. at present. It is put up to us to accept local loans money at 5¾ per cent. for a period of thirty-five years, to lend, as a small dwellings loan, to purchasers to buy their houses, at 5½ per cent.

Whether due to the depth of the Deputy's argument, or some fog around the Chair, the Ceann Comhairle still fails to see the relevancy of the Deputy's argument.

I accept the fault as mine, and not yours, Sir. The position is that we cannot get money to build houses at a wholesale rate of less than 5¾ per cent. for 35 years, which rules out the building of houses, and that is, the financial state of the country at a time when this Supplementary Budget, to increase costs all round, is put over. It was a very slick move of the Minister to remind the country that income-tax cannot escape, and, consequently, he is putting a shilling in the £ on the income-tax rate, but holding it in mid-air until the beginning of the next income-tax year. I am not a gambler, but I should not mind gambling with the Minister that, if this war continues, and whether it continues or not, he will never assess an income-tax account at 6/6 in the £. It is only a temporary rise so that when he puts an other 1/- or 2/- on next spring, it will only be a rise of 1/- or 2/- instead of 3/- or 4/- I am quite satisfied that when the next Budget is introduced, there will be an increase of at least 1/-, bringing the rate to 7/6 in the £. This is put on merely as a stepping stone towards what the Minister has in mind for next year.

And on that occasion, I presume, the Deputy will be vocal.

And I hope the Chair will not be too severe with me.

The fog will be gone by then.

We have spent a lot of money on defence measures which are, of course, only a joke. Can we economise on them? We are neutral, and why are we spending money on blackouts which were themselves blacked out yesterday evening? How much money has been spent on them, both publicly and privately? I suggest that the Government should look squarely at the problem facing the country. We are losing, and have lost to a considerable extent, our peace-time employment, and we are getting no war-time employment, and the Minister, instead of increasing taxation, should be devising ways and means of diminishing it. The problem before the Government is to put the 100,000 people who are idle at some kind of work. Let them at least provide for themselves. If they are not put to providing for themselves, how can others, with increasing taxation and diminishing incomes, provide for them?

I think the Government expects too much from agriculture. Remember that the agricultural labourer is a human being, and if he has to pay 1½d. extra for his pound of sugar, ½d. extra for his pint of beer and 2d. an ounce extra for his tobacco—and whatever we may say about those, they are all essential to his life—his wages are cut by those extra amounts, and he must get an increase. Let the farmers take heed in time. If they agree to fixed prices for their produce, and these appear substantial, let them remember that the agricultural labourer is not going to work next year for the wages for which he worked last year. If the price of his essential commodities go up, his wages have to advance, too. It is not by increasing taxation that the problems confronting the country will be solved. Everything we are using is going up and where the end will be I cannot see. I cannot see any hope for the future. On Tuesday, I could buy paraffin for tractors at 8d. a gallon; on Wednesday morning the price is 9½d., and the real war trouble has not started yet. In the last analysis, when the real war starts, there will be very little employment in this country, except what will be given on the land, and if our motive power is curtailed and the price advanced, and if our fertilisers are curtailed and the price advanced, I can see very little hope for the future.

I think this whole problem should be tackled without regard to the political past and without regard to political divisions, for I am convinced that it will take the whole co-operative effort of every Irishman and woman of goodwill to pull this country through. Suppression is no cure for anything. If any of us are hungry, there is no use in preaching fine principles to us, and it is perhaps as well that we have pluck enough not to die of hunger. Those who are in control of the Government at present have a very grave responsibility, and they will get the co-operation of everybody, if they face up to their responsibilities, but, as an humble citizen, I advise the Minister for Finance that if certain sources of revenue are not as good as we anticipated, the cure is to find where he can save and to have less of the swashbuckling, because if, as the Minister said in his Budget statement, a powerful invader came to our country, the little racket we could put up would not last long. Why, therefore, not seek economies in the Army, and instead of spending millions on the Army, why not save those millions for social services? Why does not the Minister for Industry and Commerce get going on what might be war work? The United States, a big rich country, are making munitions and selling them. Why should we not make munitions and sell them? Why not put our people working at something? It seems to me that the Government are allowing industry after industry to decline, or close down, without putting anything in their places, and there must be an end to that. Our resources cannot last, and there is no use in guaranteed prices, as I say. Guarantee the people work and prices will look after themselves. Statements were made here with which I differ very much in regard to the stopping of hoarding by the Government. I do not know whether it would be relevant to deal with that now.

Not at this stage, since it is a matter of administration.

In passing, I might say that it is a pity that everybody was not encouraged to hoard what they could buy. You would have it in the country anyway, if the people had not been deterred from storing. I was informed only to-day by big wholesalers in the city that they were prepared to store to the limit of their capacity and to the limit of their banking account and credit. I shall not deal any further with that question.

I shall certainly vote against these taxes with enthusiasm. I do not think the Minister smokes, but I think it a pity that he put 2d. per ounce on the poor man's "baccy". I have not indulged for some years and I will pay nothing on that account, though I will be caught in other directions. There was an impost put on the weed this year and I thought it was quite enough. As regards sugar, I think the new tax is quite inequitable. I was talking to merchants and shopkeepers to-day and they said: "We are asked to put 50 per cent. more into the sugar business and we shall be allowed no return for that 50 per cent." As the Minister is quite well aware, there are some commodities on the sale of which this tax, though it might be an injustice to impose it, would not make them uneconomic, but it takes an expert to take a bag of sugar, weigh it and save himself from loss. That was so even before this tax was imposed. No shopkeeper would stock sugar were it not that it is necessary to complete his grocery store. There was no profit on it even before this tax. Before the 1st November you paid £26 for a ton of sugar. You had to weight that out and supply sugar bags, and you were only allowed a farthing per lb. for all that trouble. As I said, you would want to be an expert, and I doubt if even an expert could weight 112 lbs. out of 1 cwt. of sugar. Before this a man had 12½ per cent. profit. A shopkeeper is told he must pay a little over 50 per cent. more for the sugar—£40 per ton—and weight it out at the same margin of profit. It cannot be done.

An economy committee has been established and, as a result of their activities, the Minister anticipates that he will save £400,000. He did not indicate where these economies are to be effected. As a previous speaker— I think it was Deputy O'Sullivan—has pointed out, the economy investigation has been made into those activities of the Government under which there was a possibility of work being provided. I would suggest to the Minister that he should take his courage in both hands and not be the one Minister for Finance in the world whose functions begin and end with the assessing and the collection of taxation. There is not a Finance Minister or a Chancellor in the world, except our Minister, who does not control the whole financial life of the country from beginning to end. I would put it to any business man: how can he run his business if his purse and his banking account are under the control of another, perhaps a competitor? That is the position in which we are in this country. Unless we get down to it, unless we see that credit is extended instead of being contracted, unless steps are taken to see that we get money at a cheap rate, I see no hope of putting the scores of thousands of unemployed working.

The Minister must be aware of some very critical circumstances about our financial position that he has not made known. That is epitomised in the fact that he will not yield on the question of letting money out of the Local Loans Fund at the pre-war rate. I hope that when he is replying he will give us the reasons for insisting on charging local authorities 5¾ per cent. for their money so that when they dole that out to the public they have to add ½ per cent. for administrative purposes, making the total charge 6¼ per cent. while many insurance companies are lending money for precisely the same purposes at 4½ per cent. at the present time. I shall give the Minister a case in point. I know of a case of house purchase that will be closed to-morrow and the money has been advanced by the Royal Liver Friendly Society at 4½ per cent. On the same day and at the same hour, the purchase of another house will be closed on which the Dublin County Council will lend the money to the purchaser and he will have to pay 6¼ per cent. because the Minister charges the Council 5¾ per cent. Has it not come to a terrible pass when a British Insurance Company has greater faith in the financial stability of this country than our own Minister for Finance? I have no doubt the Minister has a good reason for that but I should be glad to hear it when he is summing up.

I do not think it is natural to expect that business men in this country will give of their best when income tax is at the rate of 6/6 or 7/6 in the £. What does that mean? Six and sixpence is about one-third of £1 so that the man who has to pay 6/6 income tax is working for four months of the year for the Government. Is he going to continue to do that? I think he will start playing golf, if he has not already done so, and if he has played a little, he will play more in future and give less attention to his business. Why should he pay more attention to his business when the Government will not safeguard the interests of the country better than they have done?

In conclusion, I should like to impress upon the Minister—and I have some business activities in and around the City of Dublin—that everywhere one turns one sees nothing but depression. No man is maintaining his staff. An appeal was made at a very recent meeting of the Dáil by the Minister for Supplies, and throughout this city and State by businessmen, some of them not large businessmen, to employers not to sack any of their employees. No employer wants to sack a man. I am not saying that from any sentimental or humanitarian motive. I say it because, in my opinion, the greatest asset that any industry can have is a good staff, one man working in with another. No one wants to break up that kind of organisation, because it is extremely difficult to get it together again when the need arises.

The bank rate should be the primary concern of the Minister for Finance. It should not be raised or lowered without his consent. It is not done in any other country in the world without the authority of his opposite number. Why, therefore, should we here be an exception in that matter? We talk a lot about our independence and freedom. In the past we foolishly talked a lot about the rock of the Republic. If ever there was a rock of a republic or a rock of freedom, it is to be found in full financial freedom. If we leave this power of raising and lowering the bank and discount rates to the bankers, then we are simply placing power over the economic life of the country in their hands. I put it to the Minister for Finance that he should get to grips with this matter. If he is making an appeal to industry to make a supreme effort to stabilise the economic life of the country, to increase its productivity, that can only be brought about by one means, and it is up to the Minister to do his part to see that agriculture, commerce and industry will get their proper share of banking credit. There is only one way in which he can do that, and that is by taking control of the bank rate. If he fails to do that, then he will have no more power than a crow over the economic life of the country. If any member of the House thinks that my arguments are unsound, I hope that he will give the House his views as to why he thinks they are unsound. I have not the least doubt but that my arguments are sound.

It is essential in the national interest, it is essential to me as a man engaged in commerce, manufacture and agriculture, that there should be an extension of bankers' credit. I am not to be taken now as canvassing for banking accommodation for myself. I am thinking of the people who are in industry, of the people who grow foodstuffs and take them to the market. I want to see a situation brought about whereby the wives of workers in every walk of life will have the necessary purchasing power, when they go to the market, to buy our foodstuffs. When I send the foodstuffs I grow to the Dublin market the best customers that I have there are the wives of Dublin artisans and labourers. If they have not purchasing power, then the value of the stuff that I send to the market goes. These are the elements in ordinary trade and commerce. People cannot be kept working unless bankers' credit is kept up, and bankers' credit cannot be kept up unless taxation is kept within limits that the country can bear. It is the duty of the Minister for Finance to see that taxation is not imposed on the country that is beyond its capacity to bear. It is his duty not to allow any raising or lowering of the bank rate without his knowledge and consent. If I handle a ton of potatoes and profiteer on them, there is a Prices Commission to put me in the dock.

They will not do it.

Theoretically there is, but neither in theory nor in practice has anybody a say as to what bank rate will be paid in this country, and that is the life-blood of the national economy. So far the Minister has considered that to be outside his functions. Yesterday he brought in his proposals to assess taxation. Those of us who have had experience have not the least doubt but that an army of vultures will be let loose on the people to collect this taxation. If there are any people bereft of conscience, they are the tax gatherers. I hope the Minister will deal with the two points I have raised, the first with regard to the money from the Local Loans Fund, and the other with the exercise of at least some supervision, if not control, over the bank and discount rates in the country.

The discussion on this Budget has ranged over a fairly wide field. Nearly every possible point has been touched on. I propose to confine myself strictly to the Budget and to the printed statement that accompanied it. I am in doubt as to which of the two is the worse. I regard the Budget as a bad and brutal Budget, and the statement which accompanied it as indiscreet, reckless, injudicious and provocative. I am not criticising either the Minister's eloquence or his command of English, but there were definitely and deliberately provocative pages introduced into that statement that had little or no connection with the Budget, that could do no good through any possible chance, and that could only produce evil and harm. On page 6 of the Minister's statement we had this:—

"We have deliberately chosen to be neutral. We have done so, I think I can say, with the full approval of every member of this House, and so far as I am aware no voice has been raised in Ireland in opposition to this decision,"

and so on, for three-quarters of a page.

Then, again, we have the challenge thrown down that no influential voice has yet been raised to suggest that Ireland should be a participant. Now we are living in a country very closely controlled by a rigid censorship. We have never in this country taken any decision for or against neutrality. We have, by secret orders to the Press, insured that no reference to the neutrality can appear in any newspaper up or down the country. Yet in these circumstances we have the Minister utilising a Budget statement deliberately to provoke into a noisy clamour many voices throughout the length and breadth of this country who may desire to advocate participation either on one side or the other. What should, and can, come out of that kind of reckless provocation? Imagine all the harm that can come from that kind of idle, foolish flag-waving. We have many people in this country—irresponsible people if you like—who think that this country should have availed of the present European situation to make a flank war against Great Britain. We have those who still adhere to the theory that England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity; and if their voices have not been heard so far, is not that statement by the Minister a challenge for everyone of them to come out and let their voices be heard? We have another big minority in the country who believe that we should be participants on the other side, on the side of Britain and in opposition to Germany. They have accepted the Government's decision to be neutral, but that is no justification for any Government Ministers rubbing their noses on it and saying: "We have done this with the approval of every single individual in the country, every member of the Dáil and every Senator and, as far as I know, every individual in the country". Statements like that can only be calculated to bring noisy, clamourous opinion to the ears of the Minister in spite of the censorship. It is unfair to the general masses of the people who are prepared to stand behind the elected Government in a grave emergency, even though they may not agree with every decision taken by that Government.

It was a Government decision. It was not even a Parliamentary decision. There are Deputies here who, if it were put before Parliament, would disagree with the policy of neutrality. Those Deputies have been silent because they have accepted the fact that the policy commanded the support of the majority of Deputies, and the support of the majority of the people, and that nothing but harm can result from challenging that opinion. They were satisfied that it can have no result but to divide Parliament and to divide Parties. But that does not justify the provocative challenge of the Minister. In case the Minister thinks I am standing or sheltering behind vague phrases, or pointing the finger at others, I may say that at the moment I am speaking for myself, and only for myself. If a decision had to be taken, if a vote had to be recorded I would consider the neutrality decision in the long run, unwise. I do not suppose that the breaking off of diplomatic relations with the Continental Powers, whose every action is detested by the great bulk of the people of this country, would necessarily mean sending an expeditionary force. I believe it is not men who are wanted at all in this war. It is finances and machinery. I believe that the policy of neutrality will turn out in the long run to be an unwise one. I think, as well as having national responsibility, no self-governing independent country can escape the fact that they also have world responsibility, and our very religion, and the long history that we have of Christianity, would certainly indicate that we would be one of the first nations called on to make some kind of positive effort to avert the menace that appears to be growing up in the centre of Europe. We have closer relations with the Republic of France than, perhaps, any of the Continental countries, and we have certainly more in common in history, religion and race with the trampled nation of Poland than has any other European nation.

The Government, knowing more than the rest of us, decided that the best policy for this country was one of neutrality. That was accepted. It was unchallenged. But that does not justify any Minister in utilising his Budget statement to say that it had the support of every single individual and to make capital out of the fact that he had not heard it challenged or that he had not heard any voices throughout the length and breadth of the country raised against it. That statement can have only one effect—that we will have two noisy gangs endeavouring to justify their existence. That statement will provoke every one who believes that we should be against England in this war—it will provoke them to get into the limelight and it will have the same effect on everybody who believes that. It will provoke them to ensure that the Minister will hear their voices. I do not know where the Minister lives. I do not know how many hours of the 24 he sleeps but if I were to believe that that statement is a true one then I believe he sleeps the whole 24 hours. Does he read anything? Does he listen to anything? Has he any wireless? Does he hear the broadcasts of the so-called Republican Army at 9 o'clock on Friday nights?

I have not heard it.

Well, the Minister will hear it next Friday night. I never had and never will have any use for, or any brief for, this type of organisation. I would like to see an organisation of that type entirely eradicated from the public life of this country. But that kind of provocative statement, which can serve no useful purpose, is only going to put strength and energy into them and other such organisations right and left throughout the length and breadth of this country. We had this Budget statement utilised by the Minister in order to throw down a challenge to organised and unorganised labour, to the wage-earners and the salary-earners in this State, the people who have got to take the knock, perhaps, to a much greater degree than in any other classes in the community. Because in trade and commerce when taxes are imposed there is some prospect of getting others to share the tax and of getting back some of the penalties imposed.

There is one class of the community that has no possible opportunity of escaping any percentage of a tax, and that is the wage earner and the salary earner. They have got to bear 100 per cent. of the tax. Yet, in this statement we have the Minister going out of his way to point out: "These increases will bear heavily on every class, and there will be a strong temptation to demand corresponding increases in wages, salaries and profits. The Government is determined to set its face against the efforts of any class to obtain compensation for the rise in prices at the expense of the community." Might I ask the Minister what useful purpose that kind of a challenge has in view? What is the ordinary result to be expected from that kind of a challenge thrown down from the Government Bench? If this Government or any other Government makes up its mind that we must resist all demands for increases of salary and increases of wages, that is entirely the business of the Government. That is a decision that they have a perfect right to make. That is a decision which, in certain circumstances, might have to be taken by any Government. But why step out of your path in order to provoke demands, in order to issue a challenge, in order to throw down the gauntlet and provoke organised agitation? That kind of reckless challenge thrown out merely to fill a page in a 25-page document—which would be easier to swallow, and more acceptable to the country if it were minus that page—shows a complete lack of responsibility.

It would be well for the Minister to remember that any Budget in any country is at best an irritant. Any Budget that is any good, in any country, imposes penalties on the people. If it did not do that, it would produce no revenue. Accepting the fact that every Budget is an irritant, and that every Budget picks the pockets of the people and imposes penalties on their backs, does not that give some explanation of the fact, that nearly every Budget, when introduced, is accompanied by the sweetest of phrases? But this Budget, unlike every other Budget, is accompanied by provocative pages and offensive phrases. As I said at the beginning, I regard the Budget as being bad but the statement as being simply deplorable. The Minister is asking from the people of this country, poor and rich, 1½d. every time they use a pound of sugar, 2d. every time they smoke a packet of cigarettes or an ounce of tobacco, a halfpenny every time they drink a bottle of stout or a bottle of beer—I do not know how much on a half-glass of whiskey—and an extra shilling in addition to the 5/6 income-tax that is already being paid. With demands of that kind being made on every one of us, poor and rich, not in an ordinary Budget but in a mid-year or Supplementary Budget, we are at least entitled to ask and to get a far clearer statement as to why the money is wanted.

Our memories are not so very short that we do not remember that only six months ago we made full and ample financial provision for a war army and for full equipment for a war army; that we have not, owing to the circumstances, got any opportunity of spending even 25 per cent. of the money which was demanded and granted for the equipment of a war army; and that the army when mobilised, did not come anything like up to the figure which was outlined in that particular Estimate. I claim and believe that our Army expenditure for the year ending 31st March next will not even be up to the figure for which we made provision last April. I may be wrong. There has been a shroud of silence over the Government front bench for the last few months, and the more a person is entitled to information the less he will get. As one member of this Assembly which is being called on to vote millions every second month we come here, I had the audacity to ask a simple and innocent question as to the size of the Army, and I might as well have been one of those imaginary enemies that we cannot see but that we are arming against, because not a bit of an answer could I get. At all events, from any information I could get outside this House, I am of the opinion that there was more financial provision made for the Army last April than will be spent before next April. Yet, the Minister hangs most of this demand around the necessity for further defence expenditure, for Air Raid Precaution schemes, et cetera, et cetera.

We have been hearing of Air Raid Precaution schemes and voting money for them during the last two or three years. Neither the area not the population of this country has increased in the last two or three years. We were told 12 months ago and 18 months ago that all the plans were cut and dried, fully considered and worked out. We were given a figure in money, and we voted that money. Are we going to double up now? If so, why? The danger appears to be considerably less, not more. Nearly all the prophets were confounded by this war. Nearly everybody who, last year or even last August, thought of the coming war, pictured indiscriminate bombings of civilian towns and cities, neutral and belligerent alike. The prophets were wrong. There is a minimum of bombing going on, even between armies. There is no bombing of civilians. But there is this; there is a very pronounced effort by every belligerent to respect the neutrality of nonbelligerents, except those in the immediate field of hostilities where some military gain might be achieved. We have here in the Minister's statement a recognition of those facts. He says "We are not likely to be attacked. The belligerents of both sides recognise our neutrality and we have no reason to think that they will not continue to respect it." I agree with the Minister, but if that is the belief of the Minister and the opinion of the Government, then why demand more money for armaments, more money for military preparations, more money for Air Raid Precaution schemes in addition to what has already been voted?

One could understand the Minister demanding more money for military preparations, for military machines, if he said that the danger is greater than they had estimated; but asking for more money for such purposes, accompanied by a statement that the danger is less than it appeared to be, and that there was nobody likely to attack us, makes the position quite different. If we were a very wealthy country it would be all right to be shoving up more and more money for defence purposes merely as an outlet for expenditure; but seeing that we are a particularly poor country, emerging from a war more disastrous financially than a military war, emerging from six years of as damaging an economic war as a country ever went into; coming out of it badly bent, credit gone, capital gone, savings gone, and then to be asked to pile up more and more armaments, all in the face of a Ministerial statement that there is no danger—surely we should hesitate before acceding to any such request?

There are countries on the Continent, neutral countries, spending millions on armaments. There are Ministers of Finance asking for more money, and every one of those Ministers is prepared to tell his Parliament where the danger lies and against what country they have to arm. We have an island here. Against whom are we arming? Who is likely to invade our shores? We are not so very wealthy that we can spend millions on cheap political demonstrations. I say this in all seriousness: let the Minister point out any military danger, even remote, and I believe that not only will he get ten times as many soldiers as he has, but he will get them as unpaid volunteers. Whatever danger is apparent, even the normal danger in any country in time of war, namely, irresponsible people agitating within the country, the ordinary standing Army of this country is quite capable of dealing with any nonsense of that kind. We have highly trained officers and soldiers. If the thing was of greater dimensions, certainly the Army, plus the reserves, would be able to deal with it very efficiently and expeditiously. But we are to mobilise more and more men, to pile up more and more armaments. If all that is required, where does the danger lie, and against whom are we supposed to arm?

Those are questions we are entitled to ask if we are requested to vote away millions of pounds. Those questions are not being put in order to make difficulties for the Minister. As I already indicated, the spirit of this Party is that if there is any real danger, even if there is danger that does not appear to be real to us, but that a responsible Minister, with his sources of information, can assure us exists, then he will get the support of every man Jack that we can influence; they will come along to help him and we will not begrudge him the money. The spirit of our people is such that if there is danger pointed out to them, danger to our independence, a menace from without or within, the most of the men who will roll to the colours will roll up as unpaid men.

And no pensions.

We do object to this island country mobilising tens of thousands of men, mobilising millions of pounds worth of armaments; we object to that in a country with no apparent enemy, north, south, east or west. If there is an enemy that is not apparent to us over here and that we have no information of, then perhaps the Minister will enlighten us. If he is not prepared to enlighten us, and if the position is as he says, that everyone is respecting our neutrality and that we have no reason to expect attack from any quarter, then why ask for more money?

The best thing that we can do to contribute to the welfare of the world and our own national welfare in the present emergency is to put every available man into the production of food, into the production of goods required here and elsewhere. And yet there are thousands and thousands of them heartsore and footsore trying to pass monotonous days tramping from one barracks to another, while their farms and their mothers' farms are going derelict for the want of men to work them. There are hundreds and hundreds of men who were engaged in important national productive work but who are now mooning around barracks, apparently for no useful purpose whatsoever, and merely because a Minister lost his head and got panicky in the early days of September. His face has now got to be saved, and because we have to save one political face we have to burst holes in millions of impoverished pockets.

So far as these demands made in this Budget are for essentials, let the Minister make his case. As far as these demands are to bolster up and cover up a period of blunders and to bolster up continuing nonsense, then I suggest that a far better case has got to be made. I hope that before the division bells ring a better case will be made at the end than was made at the beginning, and that whoever ends up this debate will take an opportunity to withdraw, as far as can be withdrawn, the provocative challenges that were issued in that document to people who may have perfectly sound national views differing from those of neutrality. I hope that some explanation or some withdrawal will be given of the provocative challenge given here for them to come out into the open in a noisy way and that some explanation and some withdrawal will be made of the idle, reckless and provocative challenge that was thrown down to the salary earners and to the wage earners of this country.

This Supplementary Budget has been brought into the House in a hasty and ill-considered manner, for the purpose, in my opinion, of covering up what I call the sugar price scandal. The abusive and threatening language used by the Minister for Supplies in the House this evening, and directed towards the members of this Party in particular, is not going to deter me in this debate from analysing the many mis-statements or contradictory statements made by that particular Minister in the course of the discussions on this Budget and in the speech he delivered in the House yesterday. In his speech this evening he said that the Sugar Company were responsible for increasing the price of sugar and that the sugar manufacturing company made the announcement. I suppose I will not be quoting from anything but the Bible when I quote from the Irish Press of the 1st November and the statement made therein by the Minister for Supplies dealing with the reasons for the increase in the price of sugar. He said in an important part of that statement, which gets particular prominence in the way it is printed:—

"In order to obviate any risk of a shortage of sugar next year and to accumulate an adequate reserve, Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teó have arranged, on the instructions of the Government, to purchase for immediate delivery the balance of the country's requirements of sugar up to the opening of the 1940-41 manufacturing season."

That statement was issued by the Information Bureau, on the authority of the Minister for Supplies, on the 1st November, while here, on the 18th October, the very same Minister repeatedly assured the House that there was no shortage. I can quote from the Official Reports:—

"There is no shortage at all of sugar. The quantity of sugar that went into consumption on the 1st September this year was substantially higher than the amount last year."

I can quote from the other famous statement which he made and which I am sure will go down in history, to his credit or discredit, where he finally said, column 742:—

"Some Deputy asked whether the standstill order for sugar still operates. It still operates for the sale of sugar. We do not anticipate any immediate change in the price of sugar."

That is the man who wants the co-operation of all Parties and members of all Parties in this House in order to enable the Government to pull through this critical period. I suggest that if that co-operation is to be expected, those who are willing to give co-operation on reasonable conditions are entitled to be told the whole of the story by those who have responsibility.

Further on in this statement issued by the Minister—I do not want to read the whole of it—he says:

"The price of sugar will be increased by 1½d. per lb., as from the 1st November, 1939, but no further increase in the price will take place for a very considerable time."

I wonder would the Minister for Supplies, or somebody speaking on his behalf, explain later on in the discussion what is the difference between "the immediate future" and "a considerable time", and then we will be able to balance on their merits the value of statements made in this House by the Minister for Supplies on matters of this kind.

I repeat that this Supplementary Budget is being brought forward in an ill-considered manner, for the purpose of covering up this sugar price scandal. The Minister for Supplies in the House this evening asked everybody to accept it as good, sound financial policy that the Budget must be balanced. He did not proceed to state that this Budget was not being balanced, that it is not a balanced Budget, or the reasons why he does not carry out the policy which he asks others to accept and to co-operate with him in carrying out. It is a striking fact, however, that the alleged or estimated deficit disclosed in his Supplementary Budget bears a very close relation to the charge which will be put on to the consumers as a result of the increased price of 1½d. per lb. on sugar. The alleged deficit disclosed by the Minister for Finance in this Supplementary Budget is, he says, £1,620,000, whereas the estimated cost to the consumers of sugar in this country in a full financial year will be £1,500,000 to £1,600,000. I would like the Minister to contradict the figures of the estimated cost to the community when he is replying, if he can do so. Does it not look as if this 1½d. per lb. on sugar, which is being imposed by back-door methods, by, as alleged by the Minister for Supplies, the Irish Sugar Manufacturing Company, is being put on for the purpose of covering up the whole of the alleged deficit?

May I ask the Deputy a question? Does the Deputy suggest that the Minister for Finance will get that £1,600,000 he speaks of?

I was just going to ask you that, because the Minister has not been asked to explain that so far. In the Supplementary Budget the Minister asks for powers to take ¾d. from the Irish Sugar Company, which is getting 1½d. per lb. from the consumers. The Minister for Finance did not state in his Budget statement or make any reference to the fact that ¾d. was still being left to the Irish Sugar Company. It is well known, from the latest statement made by the Chairman of the Irish Sugar Company, that the position of that company was a healthy one financially and that they paid the usual dividends. Is it to be understood, therefore, that the remaining ¾d. is going to the reserve fund or to the funds of the Irish Sugar Company, or—and I think we are entitled to be told this, if the Ministry want to be frank with us—are the beet growers or the beet factory workers, who will have to pay their portion of the increased price of sugar, going to get anything out of this pool which is being created a year in advance?

We were told, of course, here, on the first war day, or neutrality day, meeting of the Dáil—I think it was the 2nd September—that every Minister, and particularly the Minister for Supplies, for some considerable time had been engaged in filling the stores all over the country with reserve supplies of food and other essential commodities. I would ask the Minister for Finance, when he is replying, to state why it was that no precaution of any kind appears to have been taken by the Ministers, and particularly by the Minister for Supplies, to buy in whatever sugar reserve was required before war was actually declared?

Figures have been supplied to me by the responsible Minister yesterday showing the imports of sugar for the five-months' period—April to August, for the years 1937, 1938 and 1939. The import of sugar for the five months ended August, 1938, was 352,915 cwts., which bears a striking resemblance to the figures for the same period, namely, the five months April to August, 1939, which are 353,933.

If the Minister for Supplies and his colleagues were engaged for months before the war broke out in making provision for reserves of essential commodities, why is it that the Ministry did not, with their eye upon a war situation, as they did in another case, order the Irish Sugar Company to purchase, or purchase themselves, reserve supplies at pre-war prices rather than wait until war was declared and then be compelled to secure sugar at an increased price? I think the House is entitled to that information. The supplies of imported sugar for the five months April to August, 1938, and April to August, 1939, are just the same and no provision of any kind appears to have been made by the Ministry to get in the necessary reserves of imported sugar. I think the House and the country are entitled to know where the remaining three farthings, that is, the difference between the tax imposed and the increased price, is going to go, and whether the beet growers or the beet factory workers are going to get anything out of it.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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