Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 24 Nov 1939

Vol. 78 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Pigs and Bacon (Amendment) Bill, 1939—Financial Resolution (Resumed).

Mr. Linehan

The most amazing feature of the entire discussion on this Bill is the fact that there was unanimous agreement on all sides of the House that it was a very good thing that the system which has operated for the past five years was abolished, and, so far as I can see, the Bill has been regarded by practically everybody who spoke on it as a definite improvement on the existing situation because it was doing away with the existing situation. The only real welcome the Bill got, however, was that many people hoped that it would lead to better and brighter things in the future, because of verbal statements made by the Minister that certain things might not take place, or certain things would take place. What strikes me about the Bill, and the reaction of the House to it, is that there seems to be a definite air of suspicion that, even though we appear to have improved our position by wiping out what has happened in the last four or five years, we cannot say that we definitely have improved our position because we are not sure what will happen under this Bill.

The Minister will have realised by now that one of the greatest objections to the Bill is to the commission which he sets up in the Bill and, apart altogether from any question of personnel, I have a definite objection to this type of commission being put in charge of any kind of industry, or anything else in the country, with practically complete powers. When the Agricultural Commission reported to the Minister, they suggested in an interim report that the Pigs and Bacon Marketing Boards be amalgamated and a new board substituted therefor. It was suggested that that board should consist of two members elected by the bacon curers, three members representative of the pig producers and two members, who may be civil servants, nominated by the Minister. Even though I dislike boards of that type being in the control of any kind of industry, I am surprised that the Minister would not agree that that would have been a better type of board, and more satisfactory in the eyes of the public than the board he proposes in the Bill, consisting of three people nominated by himself and with absolute powers. I believe that the experience of the country of legislation which gives boards of this nature complete powers over whatever matter they are dealing with has not been good, and I believe this Bill goes a long way, as do a number of other Bills introduced by the present Government, to carry that type of legislation too far. One might say that it is a very common occurrence, but take Section 17, which says:—

"The commission may make regulations in relation to any matter or thing referred to in this Act as prescribed."

That is not to be wondered at nowadays because several boards and commissions have power to make regulations, but still it is rather serious when one realises that in every type of legislation which we are getting here, legislative powers are being handed over to some commission or other, to some subsidiary body or practically to a Department. While the Minister may say that this has been in half a dozen other Bills, I take the strongest objection to a section of this nature which sets out that a commission nominated by the Minister, which may or may not be directly responsible to the House, and which may or may not be directly criticised by the House, shall have power to make regulations for any prescribed matter, or, in other words, shall have power to legislate, because their regulations will have the force of law.

I believe that if this Bill is to improve the position of the pig trade of the country, we would be far better off without this commission at all, and without a commission which is to be given the wide powers it is getting, that this Bill could be operated by the Minister and his Department and that the Minister and his Department should be directly answerable to the House for its operation, just as is the case in regard to any other portion of Departmental work, or any other line of activity which the Minister must carry out as Minister for Agriculture. I do not see the value of a commission of this nature. It is plain to everybody who has listened to the debate that the one thing about which the House was satisfied was that the board now being replaced was bad, and that it had led to a position which everybody was delighted to see was gone. I do not think, however, that you are improving the position by merely setting up another board, calling it something else, handing the entire management of the pig trade over to it and putting it in the position in which it can legislate under the terms of the Act and possibly in a position in which it can never be effectively criticised in the House, just as other boards, as we know from experience, cannot be criticised.

Again, there is another very objectionable feature and it is about time that its appearance in legislation in this country stopped. I do not care if the Minister says it is in a dozen other Acts, whether of the present Government or of the last Government, but the sooner we stop the type of legislation in Section 18 the better. It says:

The production of a document purporting to be a copy of an instrument ... or an extract of an instrument ... or resolution shall be sufficient evidence of such instrument, extract, minutes or part of minutes and no proof shall be required of the handwriting or official position of the person certifying the same.

That is another rotten type of legislation which has grown up in the country. It is set down in the Bill that the production of a typewritten or written document purporting to come from some board, from some Department of State, or from some official, shall be regarded by the courts of this country as absolute, final and conclusive evidence, as irrebuttable, without any proof whatever of the contents, without proof as to whether the contents were made in accordance with law, without proof, in the case of a resolution, as to whether that resolution was within the powers of the board or the person who made that resolution.

I can quite see that the Minister could justify that particular section by saying that it is already enshrined in the legislation of this country but I say that the sooner the type of legislation we have been getting in this country, which hands over legislative power to persons and bodies outside the House and which makes notes sent out by a Department to the court, absolute and irrebuttable evidence the better. The Minister may feel it is necessary to have these powers and necessary to preserve these sections but I say it is bad legislation, rotten legislation. It would be no wonder if a day came in this country when the ordinary citizen began to lose his regard for the values of the courts on finding that, in innumerable prosecutions every day, the only evidence presented against people who are charged with an offence is a document posted down to the State Solicitor or the Superintendent of the Civic Guards from some Department or Departmental office and put on the table of the court without any further evidence for the prosecution. That is to be treated as absolutely final and irrebuttable because it is enshrined in some section of the Bill that that evidence cannot be questioned. It does not matter that the actual document is merely a half sheet of paper typed out by some typist in a Government office; it is good law. The sooner the Minister gets it into his head that we ought to make some attempt to preserve the ordinary rights of the people and the sooner we drop this type of legislation, the better. The sooner we stop giving to bodies outside this House power to make regulations which have the force of law, the sooner we stop giving these bodies power to institute or to defend legal proceedings without going into court, where they can get away with anything by the mere production of a document, the better.

I cannot understand why the Minister, if he is going to have a board at all, would not have some representation from the people who are directly interested in his particular trade. I do not agree that the recommendation of the Agricultural Commission went far enough at all. On the outgoing board you certainly had people interested in the trade. If you are going to establish a board at all, and create the idea, as was created by the Agricultural Commission's report, that it is representative of the people interested, you would have to go a lot further than merely picking out two persons who are said to represent the bacon curers or the pig producers. There are many more people interested in these things than the Minister or the Department imagines. Very often, for instance, everybody is represented on boards of this kind except the fellow who pays the piper. Everybody is represented except the consumer. It would have been to the interests of the consumer for the past four or five years if consumers were represented on the board. That representative would have asked the board or the Minister to explain as to why the farmer was getting what he considered a very bad price for his pigs and the consumer was paying a very excessive price for his bacon, so excessive that a great number of people dropped buying bacon altogether and consumption decreased in this country.

I want to put one thing to the Minister which is dealt with in the interim report of the Agricultural Commission. At the moment this Bill is supposed to tackle the problem of pig production and pig marketing in this country. The first thing that is necessary for the profitable carrying on of the pig-rearing industry is to have pigs. I wonder does the Minister realise that, if the state of affairs which has existed for the past two months continues, the Minister is going to face a very serious decline in the pig population. Can the Minister say, if he wants to improve our pig trade and to maintain or increase the pig population, that the ordinary farmer down the country who is not in a position to put his hand into his pocket and hoard feeding stuffs, will be able to say to himself: "If I buy store pigs now I will be able to get feeding stuffs for them for the next three months?" The attitude of the small pig producers is this: "The next chance we get, we are getting out of pigs because, first of all, we cannot pay the price we have to pay for feeding stuffs and, secondly, if we can afford to pay that price, we are not sure that we can get the feeding stuffs." The Minister knows perfectly well—and I am sure many other southern Deputies will agree with me— that during the past three months, in Cork and Kerry, there were periods of a week and a fortnight when it was absolutely impossible to get any maize meal at all. Again, the price of maize meal has risen to such a height that it would not pay any small farmer who cannot afford to go in for pig rearing on such a scale that he would be able to spread his overhead expenses over a great number of them, to run the risk of not being able to get feeding stuffs for them.

I wonder if the Minister can give any indication as to whether the Government have taken any steps, or are likely to take any steps, to ensure that there will be at least an adequate supply of maize meal for the future? Have the Government any idea as to whether they will be able to get something approaching an adequate supply of maize meal for the country? I can assure the Minister, and I believe any other Co. Cork Deputy will agree with me, that unless he can say to the small farmers, who form the main bulk of the pig producers of the country, that they are going to get a sufficient supply of maize, these people are going to get out of pig production and you cannot blame them. Unless also you can give them a guarantee that the business in future is going to be managed a little better than it was in the past, that they will not be faced with the position which they had to face for the past four or five years when they were getting an unjust price for their pigs while they saw the bacon curers getting what everybody knew was an excessive price for the retail article: unless you can assure them that there is going to be some relation between the price of the finished article and the price they have now to pay for their feeding stuffs or that they will have to pay for them, the Minister will be facing a far more serious situation than was created by the scandals which were referred to by the Prices Commission. He will be facing a position where the smaller pig producers will be going out of pig production, firstly, because of the price of feeding stuffs, and, secondly, because they fear that, no matter what price they are prepared to pay, they will not be able to get feeding stuffs.

I welcome this Bill for one reason. The Minister in his opening statement told us that there were many things provided for in the Bill that might not happen and that there were many things not provided for in the Bill that he hoped would happen. Deputy O'Reilly and Deputy Brasier referred last night to the effect which the Minister's policy had on small country towns and on farmers living in the vicinity of these towns for the past five years. If this Bill is going to do away with two or three things which were customary in the past four or five years then I welcome it—firstly, if it is going to do away, as I believe it will, with the scandalous system whereby people put say 20 pigs into a lorry, took them 40 miles to a factory and were then told by the factory "We will take five of these pigs but not the other fifteen". Deputy Hickey referred last night to the case where farmers were met in the streets afterwards by buyers who bought the pigs. I can tell the Minister of a case in which pigs were taken 40 miles to a factory and the farmer was told they were not wanted. The same pigs were bought at a market another 40 miles away on the following day by a representative of the factory which had refused them on the previous day.

If that situation is gone I welcome the Bill for that reason. With regard to the case of farmers supplying pigs to the bacon factories, if this Bill is going to do away with the iniquitous system whereby a farmer got a sheet of paper about two feet long setting out what he was going to get for the pigs he supplied and indicating that there were to be deductions, descriptions and grades with the result that, by the time the various cuts were deducted from the gross price, the net price that he got for every pig he supplied was far different from the net price he hoped he would get when he took the pigs to the factory and very different from the net price that he saw quoted in that morning's newspaper—if all that is going to be done away with, then, in my opinion, it is another good thing.

I wonder has the Minister ever realised the effect, apart entirely from the inconvenience of having to take your pigs to the bacon factory on the chance of their being taken from you, that the dwindling away of the local pig markets has had on business people and others in our country towns and villages. I can well remember what used to happen not very long ago in three or four small towns not far away from where I live. The pig market day in one of these towns meant that the town was black with people from one end to the other. On that day one would find it almost impossible to drive a car through the town. All that is gone. These market days meant, first of all, that the farmers brought their pigs into the towns. You had open competition by the pig buyers, and, as a Deputy said last night, if there was open competition the farmers sold their pigs, and when they did that one may take it that they were fairly well satisfied with the price. On those pig market days considerable employment was given in all the small towns. People were employed by the buyers and by the sellers. You had people employed to take charge of the delivery of the pigs at the railway station. All sorts of jobs were to be had by people on those market days. The townspeople earned money by letting yards and stores for the keeping of pigs overnight. By reason of the system introduced under the recent legislation, all those people have lost a lot of the money that used to pour into the town, and money that provided casual employment and casual earnings for those who could ill-afford to lose it.

Another effect that the disappearance of the pig market day in our small towns and villages had was that it rapidly took away business from the small merchants. I wonder has the Minister ever realised that, whatever be thought of the policy, the very fact that that policy turned over the sale of pigs into the cities and the big towns, meant that it automatically took away business as well from our small towns and villages. It did that directly, because we all know that when the farmer sold his pigs in the small town or village he bought his feeding stuffs from the local merchant. The local merchant had been supplying him for two months with feeding stuffs, and as soon as he sold the finished pig on the market he paid the shopkeeper for the feeding stuffs he had been supplying him with. Under the changed system what happened? The farmer had to hire a lorry and take his pigs to Tralee or Cork. The pigs were delivered at the factory and, naturally, the farmer did not bring the lorry home empty. He bought his supplies of feeding stuffs in Cork or Tralee. That resulted in an immense loss to the shopkeepers in the small towns and villages. I doubt very much if the Minister has ever realised the terrible effect on business and employment that the breakdown of the market day system in the small towns and villages had on the people in these centres. If we are going to get back to the position where the farmer will have open competition for his finished products, I do not believe there is a farmer in the country but will welcome that and will be satisfied with it. If we are going to get back to the position in which we will have the pig markets re-established in the small towns and villages, then I think for that alone we should welcome this Bill.

I want to say in all seriousness to the Minister that, unless he wakes up, and wakes up quickly, to the position that is being created for the farmers and small pig producers by the price of feeding stuffs and the possible scarcity of them, and indicates that something is going to be done in the way of establishing some relation between the price of the finished product and the price of feeding stuffs: unless the Minister can assure the House and the small pig producers that something will be done to enable them to get adequate supplies of maize, then I fear that in six months' time he will be faced with a situation in which he will find that people in a small way will have to get out of pig production altogether. They will have to do that because they will find that they cannot afford to remain in it.

Mr. Coburn

While supporting the Bill, I want to say that, personally, I am of the opinion that the country might perhaps be better off if there were no boards or commissions such as are proposed under this Bill. The situation that I would like to see existing is this: that people could sell their pigs to those prepared to buy them; that they could sell them at any time they were ready, and do business in the way that they had been accustomed to do it for many years. But I suppose that, in order to keep up with the march of time, the Minister has felt obliged to make changes. Presumably this Bill has been introduced to do away with certain defects found in the existing legislation. It has to be admitted that the pig population of the country has decreased considerably in the last five or six years. I do not say that the fault for that lies with the Minister or his Department. Various factors have contributed to the decrease.

It is of the greatest importance that the Minister and his Department, with the co-operation of Deputies in all Parties, and, above all, of the farmers, should take steps to put this most important industry on a proper footing, because experience proves that the income derived from the production of pigs is a very considerable one. The decrease in the pig population in recent years has reached an alarming figure. In 1931, the number of live pigs exported was 776,399, while in 1937, the number exported only amounted to 42,350. A person not experienced in the business might say that was a terrible decrease. It is only fair, however, to point out that, side by side with that decrease in the export of live pigs over that period, there has been a considerable increase in the quantity of bacon produced in the country. The bacon produced and exported in the corresponding years 1931 to 1937 was 295,000 odd cwts., and that increased in 1937 to 516,972 cwts.; so that whilst the decrease in the export of live pigs is very marked, it is only right to say so far as the production of bacon is concerned that the quantity exported has also increased. But I should like to see a position whereby when we have reached 1940 and 1941, that in addition to the export of bacon to the amount of 516,972 cwts., we should also export live pigs to the number of 476,000 as happened in 1931. I cannot understand why, in addition to increasing the exports of bacon, we should not simultaneously keep up what used to be our exports so far as live pigs were concerned. As a result of the legislation passed in the last few years or for some reason or other the number of pigs in the country has decreased by well over 100,000. Take each pig as of an average value of £6 per pig. That would amount to almost £750,000, a very considerable sum in view of the fact that this is not a very rich country.

As I have already said we should all like to help the Minister in making this a good Bill. I want to repeat that I am personally against interference by the Government in the trade of the country whether that trade be in connection with farming or any other industry. However, owing to the difficult times through which we are passing, I suppose some form of control is necessary. This Bill, in my opinion, will not meet the present position unless something is done to increase the pig population of this country. I should like to inform the Minister that some years back there did exist, especially in the towns adjacent to the Border, pork markets. These were held weekly. The holding of them was a great boon to very many people who reared say two or three pigs within the urban area and the area immediately surrounding it in the towns adjacent to the Border. I think now that is one of the avenues that the Minister might explore with a view to the giving of some encouragement in order to get some of these people back again into pig production. I know that an average of 15 to 20 pigs per week produced in the urban area were killed and sold in the pork market there. There was altogether an average of 300 to 400 carcases every week in these markets but in the urban area, including say within a half mile of the town, there was an average of 15 to 20 pigs' carcases sold. If we count the whole year, there would be in that area alone over 1,000 pigs. It may be regarded as a small figure but when there is taken into account the numbers produced in other similar areas, one can see that it would figure up to 15,000 to 20,000 pigs annually in those pork markets along the Border. Now all that is gone. Whether it is due to the high cost of foodstuffs or that the pork markets have been dispensed with, or that the people do not market or dispose of their pig carcases, or for some other reason, these pig raisers have gone out of production.

I might, incidentally, remark that quite recently I saw where the person in charge of the food supply in Great Britain issued a memorandum to the public bodies there exhorting them not to be too stringent in carrying out the rules, so far as public health in the towns over which they had control was concerned. That was done for the purpose of inducing the people in those towns who formerly reared pigs and who because of the rules and regulations of the public health authorities had to go out of production. This memorandum by the Minister for Supplies in Great Britain was more or less inviting those people to go back again into pig production. I am inclined to think that if the Minister issued a statement to the same effect here, it would result in inducing many of those people who have given up rearing pigs to go back again into that industry. These people apparently gave up the rearing of pigs not because of their own will but because the public health authorities forced them to do so. Possibly these people could be induced again to go back into pig production.

One of the chief objections that I have to this Bill is that it does not take into account, so far as I can see on reading through the various sections, the position of the pig buyers—those men who are known to buy pigs for export as live pigs. That is a matter that should command the very serious attention of the Minister. I have spoken of the pork markets along the Border having been done away with. As a result of that, the people who raise pigs have been forced to take them to the factories. Now it has happened not on one occasion but on very many occasions that when pigs were ready and had reached the right weight so as to command the highest prices, their owners brought them to the local factory which was unable to take them. This was after word had been sent round that on a particular day or week they would be prepared to take pigs. When the pigs reached the factory, the people were informed that the factory could not take them in because the killing quota had already been filled up. I seriously suggest to the Minister that the best way to guard against that state of affairs recurring in the future would be to insert in this Bill a section whereby licences would be given to pig dealers to buy live pigs for export. I personally feel very strongly on this matter because it has been brought very forcibly before me by men engaged in that trade. These men tell me that they could buy and export from 50 to 100 pigs per week but that as a matter of fact the licences they receive would not enable them to export as many as ten pigs a week. I put it to the Minister as man to man to visualise the position of the pig dealer who in the past earned an honest living out of the export of live pigs. I know many such men who for the last 40 or 50 years carried on this business. As a result of the legislation passed by the Government, these men were deprived of their living because of the fact that they could not get sufficient licences to export the heavy pigs that are there. I will give the Ministers full credit that they thought this legislation was in the best interests of the farmers of this country. I am prepared to admit that, but it has not so worked out. I want to emphasise the fact that these over-weight pigs were not wanted by the factory.

There might be some excuse for the attitude taken up by those who controlled the Pigs Marketing Board or the Bacon Marketing Board if those pigs were wanted by the factories, but to my own personal knowledge those pigs were not wanted; they had been refused, and those dealers were in a position to take the pigs if they had the necessary licences. That is in my opinion an unfortunate state of affairs. I have in mind a case in point where one of those men to my own knowledge earned a decent living by buying live pigs for export, and he has not earned a shilling for the last five years. It is hard for that man to be a good and loyal citizen of this State when, as a result of legislation passed by his own Government, he was deprived of the living which he had enjoyed for 40 years previously under an alien Government.

That is not all. Even those who have the licences have come to me and stated that they had been out in various districts in Louth, having gone out to buy say, half a dozen pigs—they had only half a dozen licences and in those different districts there were sometimes offered in one day as many as 100 pigs, but they could not take them. The result was that the farmers had to keep those pigs for another three or four weeks, and, having incurred the expense of feeding stuffs during those weeks, they had to sell the pigs, when the factory was in a position to take them, at a price sometimes 10/- and sometimes 15/- a cwt. less.

I would ask the Minister is it not possible, in the negotiations that have perforce to be carried on between this Government and the British Government, that some arrangement could be made whereby in addition to the quantity of export bacon at its present level there would be a very big increase in the export of live pigs? Again, I have been informed by those same dealers that they themselves are in a position to make arrangements with men across the water to take all the pigs they are able to send. Surely the High Commissioner in London, or whatever officials of the Department here have occasion to go across at intervals to carry out negotiations with the British Government in connection with this very important matter, could make arrangements with that Government, who in turn would make arrangements with their own citizens there who are engaged in this particular branch of the industry, to take all the live pigs that are available in this country into Great Britain. Surely the two things could go hand in hand. There is no reason in the world why there should be rivalry of interests between those who are engaged in the business of exporting live pigs and those who are engaged in the business of exporting bacon. The two go together. The two could work together in the interests of all concerned. I put it very strongly to the Minister that he should use all the influence that is possible to secure—if it is necessary to do so—from the British Government some arrangement whereby those dealers here will be in a position to get all the licences they are prepared to take, in that way doing good to themselves, good to the farmers, and good to the country. I have here a letter from one of those dealers in which he states that he got only 11 licences, and that he has had pigs for the last three weeks and cannot ship them. They are a dead loss to him as they are getting heavier every day, and as a result he will get a smaller price.

I should also like to point out to the Minister that there are large numbers of a certain type of pig in this country which are not readily taken into the factories, on the plea that they are not just the right grade or standard for bacon, and there is a very ready market in Great Britain for those pigs. Taking everything into consideration, therefore, I believe that this Bill will not fulfil all that is expected of it unless the Minister is in a position— I am not asking him to do it to-day, but in the near future—to say to those dealers that they need not fear to buy pigs on the score that they will not get licences. There is no reason why that cannot be done, as far as I can see. It is well known that the factories will not take the pigs. I am informed that not later than a week ago 15 or 20 wagons were sent down to a town in Monaghan, and that the farmers had to drive their pigs into the railway station at a very early hour in the morning, when a special train took them down to Roscrea. Those same pigs, I am informed, as well as pigs in County Louth and in County Cavan, had already been taken into the local factory and to the fairs three or four times, and had to be taken home unsold. As a result, in desperation the farmers drove their pigs into the station at an early hour in the morning and a special train took them to Roscrea. That is a case in point; if there were licences for those engaged in the export of live pigs that situation would not arise.

Again, it is important to remember the fact that in many cases the dealers are in a position to give a higher price than the factory for those pigs. The Minister, I am sure, is aware of the fact that when a pig is over 1½ cwts. or 1¾ cwts. or 2 cwts. it will not command anything like a grade A price at the factories, or even grade B or C; it is questionable if that type of pig would be taken at all, but there always was a ready market for it in Great Britain. It is still there as far as I can see, judging by the statements that have been made to me by the pig dealers. Now, they are as essential to the wellbeing of this country as the owners of bacon factories, and they are entitled to their place in the sun as well as any other section of the community. Legislation should be honest and just, and should not penalise one section in order that another section may profit by that penalisation. If you want to increase the pig industry in this country the only way to do it is by having the same facilities for those engaged in the export of live pigs as you have for those engaged in the production of bacon. I was glad to hear the Minister stating in his opening speech that he intends to dispense with what is known as the production quota but, in the next breath, he more or less gave the House the idea that if, at any time in the future, he thought the arrangement was not working well he would alter it, and he gave it as his reason that he thought if the production quota were taken off for all time without some conditions attaching to the taking off of that quota it might be possible for the big curers, with their more efficient organisation and their big reserves of funds, to capture most of the trade in the country by buying up the pigs all over the country and thus depriving the smaller bacon factories of their supplies.

Of course it is only right and proper that the Minister should take cognisance of anything that might happen, but I would remind him again, how does it come that before this legislation ever was in operation, when there was practically what was known as free trade within the country, these things did not happen? Why should they happen now any more than nine, ten, 20 or 30 years ago? I never heard in those days of any case of a small factory closing down as a result of the bigger factories buying up all the available pigs and making it dearer for the smaller factories and more difficult for them to get pigs. I do not think the Minister need have any apprehension on that score. Indeed, he need not have any apprehension at all if the pig industry in this country improves, as we hope it will. That is the main object of introducing this measure.

In so far as the Minister has stated that the production quota is going to be dispensed with, that is a good thing. It will make up, in some way or another, for what has been lost and it will relieve the farmers of the anxiety that, if and when their pigs are ready, they will not be bringing them to the factory, taking them back again, and keeping them for a further fortnight or three weeks. That is what happened before. If they dispense with the production quota it will do away with that unfortunate state of affairs. In that sense this Bill will have achieved something. There is no doubt that putting a limit on the number of pigs that a factory would take in for a particular week or month was one of the things that gave rise to most of the trouble that did arise as a result of the introduction of the two previous Acts.

Speaking of pig production in this country, it has been stated already, and I am sure the Minister is aware, that one of the things that militates greatly against production in this State is the high price of feeding stuffs, especially the one that is most generally used, maize meal. The price is very high in this State as compared with Northern Ireland and Great Britain, for whatever reason I do not know. Even the Minister for Supplies did not know the reason when he was questioned here on the subject some few weeks ago. No matter what may be the cause, the fact remains that it is up to £3 a ton dearer in Éire than it is in Northern Ireland or Great Britain. That militates greatly against any increase in the pig population of this country.

One might ask the Minister whether, in the many conversations that his officials have with Ministers and others across the water, something could be done whereby the imports of maize meal would be increased here at a price that would approximate somewhat to that prevailing in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. With the happy relations prevailing between the two countries, I cannot see any reason why there should be such differentiation as now exists. So far as I can see, we are practically being treated as an alien country by the British Government. To all intents and purposes, so far as I can see, they have control of the imports, and so far as maize meal and other food stuffs and raw materials coming into this country are concerned, if there was a big effort made on the part of the Government here—and I seriously suggest it should be made—to put the case for this country before the British Government, some satisfactory arrangement might be arrived at.

We are not rich in resources, we are not a big country and we are comparatively a poor country, but I think something might be done if a case were made by our Government. It could be pointed out to the British Government that we supply them with a good deal of essential foodstuffs, especially in these difficult times, and if the supply of these foodstuffs is to be kept up, not to mind increasing them, and I think they should be increased—it would be to the interest of the British Government if they were increased—they, in turn, might do something to help the Government here and especially the farmers. They might give some assistance, for instance, in regard to that most essential article in the raising of pigs, Indian corn. We do not raise that in this country and it would be most helpful if we could import it at a more reasonable price. It is true, of course, as other Deputies have stated, that our potato crop is very good, but potatoes alone will not bring pigs into a suitable condition and make them ready for sale in a short space of time. You must have other foodstuffs, but at its present price, in my opinion, it would be very difficult to increase, to any appreciable extent, our pig population.

I seriously make those suggestions to the Minister. I ask him to do all he can in this matter, especially in regard to licences for those men who are engaged in the export trade of live pigs. Nobody except those acquainted with the actual state of affairs as they have existed and do exist throughout the areas in which pigs are raised, can know how useful these men are to the small farmers. They go out and buy pigs and pay for them on the spot, in a homely way. That is the type of thing the farmer likes. People living in the cities may not realise it, but it is a fact that when these dealers go out to buy pigs they pay for them in the kitchen, around the fire, and the farmer and all the people concerned are quite satisfied. That type of thing does not exist to-day, unfortunately. I would appeal to the Minister, when this Act is put into operation, not to lose sight of the fact that Deputies do not want to be annoyed by individuals coming to them asking them to interview members of the commission in order to get a few licences. I do not think that would be right and if the thing is done in a proper way there will be no need for it. Everybody will get a fair crack of the whip and we hope we will not be hearing stories such as were circulated all through this country during the time the licence scheme was in operation for the export of cattle. We were told then that people were getting licences who never bought a beast in their lives. We do not want that state of affairs to exist again.

My advice to the Minister is to make suitable arrangements so that that sort of thing can be avoided. I believe the British Government has to come into this as well, whether we like it or not. I am sure the Minister can make suitable arrangements. There is no reason why all the licences that men require cannot be got. When they are got, then the pigs will be bought and the Minister will not be annoyed by having to send down men at short notice to buy the pigs in a particular area, the same as happened on other occasions. It was mentioned last night, for example, where a telegram was received that there was a fair being held and there was no one to buy pigs, no representative from the factories. That type of thing will not happen if the Minister, when this Bill is in operation, makes suitable arrangements in regard to licences. I trust that he will have his plans ready whereby men in a position to buy more pigs than they are buying at the moment, but who cannot do so owing to the fact that they cannot get licences to export these pigs, notwithstanding that the people in England are only too anxious to get them, will not be hampered in any way. I cannot see why the Minister cannot make arrangements to meet that state of affairs. I hope he will do so when this Bill comes into operation in the course of a few weeks.

Mr. Hughes

Examining the returns of our pig population during the last ten years and, in fact, over a longer period one is seriously alarmed to find that we have the lowest pig population in the past 50 years. In face of the present critical international situation and with the Danish bacon supplies cut away by German U-boat activity from the British market, the diminished position of the pig industry of this country at the present time is a grave national loss. In fact, I consider that it is a national catastrophe. It is the duty and the responsibility of the Government to avail of and to grasp at every opportunity that offers for our agricultural produce in the British market at the present time. If the pig industry is properly fostered now, there is one consolation, that it is the type of industry that can rapidly expand and you could have, with the situation properly handled, rapid expansion inside of 12 months. If our people, and our agricultural people especially, are unable to lay aside something during this present war I believe we will never be able to weather the aftermath. Now is the time to make our plans. I believe that, no matter how rigidly the British Government control prices, prices are bound to soar and this, to my mind, in a particular way applies to breakfast commodities, bacon, eggs and butter. With the Danish supplies cut off we have an unlimited market there for our pig production, for our bacon. We all know that John Bull is very fond of a rasher for his breakfast and that no mutton bacon substitute is going to satisfy him. I believe he is prepared to pay handsomely for bacon at the present time. We should make every effort to avail of that opportunity.

What is the position of the pig industry and what is wrong with it? In 1931 we had in this country 125,000 sows and the total pig population was 1,227,000 pigs. Last year, in 1938, we had 96,000 sows—a reduction of 28,000 breeding sows. Last year our total pig population was 958,000, a reduction of 268,000 pigs as compared with 1931. In 1931 we exported to the British market 476,000 live pigs and that fell to 66,000 last year. In 1929 we exported in bacon something over 500,000 cwts., and that fell off in 1931 to about 300,000 cwts. It has since increased. The bacon exported last year was about 500,000 cwts. In any case, in the total pig population of this country there was a very serious falling off of 268,000 pigs. England imported last year £34,000,000 worth of bacon and a very, very big percentage of that came from Denmark, which is now cut away from the British market. Of that total importation into England of £34,000,000 we were only able to supply £2,500,000 worth. The whole situation, to my mind, is a very sad commentary on what the Government have done for the industry. They have practically wrecked the industry.

In regard to the Bill itself I personally entertain very grave mistrust about the merits of it when I bear in mind the record of the predecessors of the commission that the Minister proposes to set up. I think the way they have handled the pig industry has gone a long way to wreck it and to bring about the present situation. I admit that stabilisation was necessary and that you should have some authority there, either the Departments or the boards that were set up by the Minister, provided the boards did their duty sincerely and honestly in the interests of the industry. The idea of stabilisation was good and useful and should have been helpful to the industry, but instead of that it proved to be a disaster because the scheme was not administered at all in the way this House intended it to be administered. I am inclined to agree with the Deputies who suggest that this control should be exercised by the Minister's own Department. I am strongly in favour of that for this reason, that for the duration of the war at all events, to my mind, you want little or no interference at all with this industry. There will be no necessity for stabilisation because what is going to happen is that there will be a steady improvement in prices. I say that in the face of the very determined effort that is being made by the British Government to control prices. I do not think they are going to succeed. If we take the attitude of the British farmer at the present time and the price of foodstuffs, if we take all these factors into account, prices are bound to go up. The only interference that I think is essential at the present time is an interference or a control that will secure sufficient bacon supplies for our own people and that we will export the rest. For that reason, for the duration of the war at all events, I think there is no necessity for such a commission. I think the commission is going to be more of an ornament than anything else—and a very costly one at that—and if the work that is done by this commission is done on anything like the lines of its predecessors then it may do a very grave injury to this industry.

For these reasons I personally am inclined to support the Deputies who suggested that this work should be done by the Department, that a watchful eye should be kept by the Department over the industry. As I said, I have come to the conclusion that you require very little interference with the pig industry or, in fact, with any agricultural industry at the present time beyond helping it and directing it and, possibly, supplying credit if it is possible to supply credit. That is the most important part. Beyond that, as far as stabilisation or anything else in this industry is concerned, I think there would be no necessity for any interference. We simply want to secure a sufficient supply of bacon for our own people, export the remainder, and make full use of the export market.

Deputy Coburn referred to the necessity of making representations to the British Government on the matter of licences and quotas. I understand that that has already been done and that arrangements have been made. I hope the arrangements are satisfactory and that it will not be a fixed price; that it will be a scale, and that it will have definite relationship to the price of pigs produced in England. I do not think there is any necessity to make representations about licences and quotas, because we all know very well, and the Minister knows, that the market in Great Britain at the moment is unlimited, and that the British Government can take three and four times the number of pigs we are able to give them at present. We ought not to forget that aspect of it.

So far as the Bill itself is concerned, if the Minister insists on setting up this commission, to my mind the personnel of the commission will make all the difference. I understand that the Minister announced the personnel of the commission last night. I do not know very much about these gentlemen. The three persons whom he has nominated may be all right. But what about the future? If the commission is to be satisfactory, the technical and expert knowledge and the ability of the commission to deal with this matter sincerely and honestly in the interests of the industry are going to make all the difference. If the Minister is not prepared to examine the suggestion made by Deputies that he should deal with this matter directly through his Department, and if he insists on setting up this commission, my advice to him is that the less interference there is with the pig industry at the present time the better.

We are told that the production sub-quota is to be done away with. Although it is not actually removed by the Bill, we are told by the Minister that it will be suspended for the present, but that it may be useful to preserve it. Possibly there is some merit in that suggestion of the Minister's, that it may be useful to preserve the production sub-quota in order to protect the small curers. I admit that there is some merit in the suggestion that, in the event of the big curers making a definite effort to establish a monopoly for themselves and to squeeze out the small men, the production sub-quota could be introduced again. I do not think, however, that there is any great likelihood of that happening at present.

The home sales quota is going to be wiped out, but the export quota, the Minister told us, would remain. We know that that export quota remains because the British Government insists upon its remaining. We know very well that it will be an unlimited quota; that if the quota remains it will be tantamount to an unlimited quota and we will get all the licences we want for the export of pigs and bacon. Then the hypothetical price fund is to go. We are very glad of that, because we feel that that fund was used by the bacon curers to line their own pockets.

Apart from the injury that was done by the two boards which are now to be abolished, there were other contributory causes to the bringing about of the present condition of the pig industry, and one of them was the economic war. The economic war dissipated the capital of the farmer so that he is not in a position now to go in for feeding pigs extensively or to purchase foodstuffs for pigs. Another thing which helped to bring about the reduction in our pig population was the admixture scheme. I come from a barley-growing district, but I have no hesitation whatever in saying that the admixture scheme had certainly a good deal to do with the reduction in the pig population. I admit that the barley growers got some benefit from that scheme, but I do not think that that benefit offset the serious injury done to the pig industry. I say honestly and sincerely as a barley grower myself and coming from a barley-growing district, that I am glad the Minister abolished that scheme, because I look upon the pig industry as a very important industry to this country.

I have one suggestion to make to the Minister if he wants to increase our pig production rapidly and improve our pig industry, and that is, that if some of the money which is being wasted and foolishly spent on the Army, on A.R.P., and those other schemes was infused into the pig industry it would be in the interest of the country. The Government should seriously consider doing something like that, as some financial aid is necessary. No matter what is done to help the pig industry at present, I am doubtful if we will have that rapid expansion that we ought to have with an unlimited market, and a monopoly market, if you like, offering in Great Britain at present, without some financial assistance. I suggest that the Government, instead of extravagantly and wastefully spending huge sums of money on the Army and all that "tommy rot", should infuse some credit into the pig industry. I believe there will be an immediate reaction if that is done. The price of maize was referred to last week. It is extraordinary that we cannot get a satisfactory answer from any responsible Minister about that. I do not know if it has been put to the Minister for Agriculture yet to explain why such an anomaly should exist, having maize meal available in Northern Ireland at £6 10s. 0d. while it costs £11 10s. 0d. a ton here. There ought to be some explanation of that. The House is entitled to an explanation.

Mr. Hickey

Is it not subsidised in Northern Ireland?

Dr. Ryan

It is.

Mr. Hughes

Does the Minister definitely say that it is?

Dr. Ryan

It is.

Mr. Hughes

By how much?

Dr. Ryan

The millers get it at prewar price.

Mr. Gorey

Lucky England and lucky Northern Ireland.

Mr. Hughes

What does the Minister suggest doing about it?

Mr. Gorey

Nothing.

Mr. Hughes

Is the Minister going to help pig feeders by subsidising maize, or will he help them to buy feeding stuffs at reasonable prices?

Dr. Ryan

I think it is essential that we should get the cost of production for our bacon from England.

Mr. Hughes

I agree.

Mr. Gorey

And on the home market?

Mr. Hughes

I have no doubt that it can be got. With regard to prices, I think Deputy Dillon suggested that they should be fixed four or five months ahead. There is no use in telling farmers the prices they are going to get for pigs for sale this month. The pigs are there, and he has got to sell them in any event. There is no incentive to increase production by fixing prices for a particular month. If prices were fixed four or five months ahead, there would be a definite inducement to farmers to buy pigs and fatten them. If that system were adopted it would be helpful. As I pointed out before, there will not be the same necessity to do that during the war period, because the tendency all the time now will be for prices to go up. The important thing is to relate prices, when fixed, to the price of pigs. If prices are fixed four or five months ahead any fluctuation in the price of feeding stuffs will be reflected in the price of the pigs. These are considerations that the Minister should not lose sight of.

One particular section of the community has been very badly treated in recent years. I refer to the pig dealers. As a class they play an important part in the pig industry. From the producers' point of view the more buyers there are in the market the more competition there will be. Pig dealers can handle a type of pig that the factories cannot pay the best price for. They are certainly entitled to a quota for export. Deputy Keyes suggested last night that some allegations had been made against pig dealers, but I want to make it clear that no allegations have been made against them from this side of the House. Farmers always thought pig dealers a decent, honest set of men. If they took the opportunity at any time to buy as cheaply as they could no one can blame them. That was good business. They were certainly helpful to the pig industry and assisted farmers to secure competitive prices. For that reason we feel that pig dealers are entitled to every consideration, and that their interest in the industry should be preserved.

I appeal to the Minister to consider the question of dropping the commission at the present time, and to let the Department keep a watchful eye on the industry. A watchful eye is all that is necessary. Then the stabilisation funds might go by the board. They will not be necessary during the war period. I say definitely that if the Minister is going to insist on setting up this commission we will press under Section 14 that it must report annually to the Minister and that the report will be laid on the Tables of both Houses. There should also be a right to consider and review the report. I believe this Party will oppose the Bill unless the Minister gives an undertaking that the House will have the right to review the activities of the commission at least once or twice during the year.

Mrs. Redmond

I welcome this Bill, because I think it will help to do away with many of the hardships that were imposed on a certain section of people by previous Acts. For that reason, I am glad that this Bill has at last come before the House. Pig production is one of the most important factors in the life of many of our people, and it is up to us to find the best way possible of improving and helping the industry. I am particularly interested in the fact that the factories and home market will be allowed to have as many pigs as they wish, and that the quota in that respect has been done away with. I only wish that the same thing could be said concerning the quota system for export, because if we had an open export trade for as many pigs as the British market wished to take, then there would be lively competition at our fairs and markets. That has not been the case for the last five years.

As Deputies know, we have in this country a body of men known as pig buyers. They are a decent body of men, taxpayers and ratepayers, and they have a perfect right to earn an honest living for themselves and their families. On their behalf I make a special appeal to the Minister for consideration of their claims. I have letters from some of them pointing out, as I am sure the Minister is aware, that the system that has prevailed for the last few years has brought humiliation upon them. They have had to come to Dublin to beg for what they considered they were justly entitled to, extra licences. In one letter a man who got ten licences for the export of live pigs, actually had on hands 125 pigs. He was faced with the responsibility of feeding those that he could not export. That is no small item at the present time owing to the increased cost of feeding stuffs. That man is living in the hope that in the allocation of licences for next month he will be able to get rid of pigs that he should have been able to get rid of at the beginning of this month. The matter is a serious one for people in that position. The pig buyers are anxious to attend fairs and buy in the open market, and to give the highest prices possible for any pigs they require.

Owing to their initiative in the past they worked up a good trade with certain people in Great Britain. It seems a hardship now, that an Irish Government should practically stifle the living of these men. That is what it amounts to practically, as they have been idle for the last four years. Although they are anxious to buy pigs from farmers and to earn a living for themselves and their families, they are forced to stand by, and are practically denied the right to live. That is what it amounts to. I make a special appeal to the Minister to consider this point and to understand that it is not just or fair to have these men in the position of coming and begging for licences which, up to the present, he had no control over or could not give. I am glad, therefore, that this new commission will be subject to the Minister and that, if there is any scandal, and if we see that this thing about licences is not working properly, the matter can be raised here in the Dáil, because after all there must be a fair crack of the whip for everyone and, up to the present, these people have not got that.

We all know, no matter what class or creed of politics we may like or dislike, that competition is the life of trade. When competition went out of the fairs, by reason of the pig dealers not being in a position to buy because they could not export, the fairs were finished, and consequently the small towns, at least in my own constituency, have been hit very hard and none of them has benefited by this regulation which, in other words, cuts out the men who came down to the different towns, stayed in the town or in the hotel in the town for the night, or whatever length of time they were there, and paid for their stay in the town. In recent years many people suffered losses. The small towns were hit, and the farmers also suffered. Some of them may not have been in love with these particular pig dealers, but they were in love with the money they made out of them, and it is up to the farmer to get the best price he can, and he can only get that through competition. Competition has been done away with, with the result that the pig trade has fallen down until it is at its lowest ebb.

Now is the time to rectify this great fault in the last Act, and I make the appeal to the Minister, no matter what else is neglected, not to neglect this business of the licences, and to allow the men at least to buy what they are prepared to buy. They can sell them without any fostering whatever by the Government. They only want the right to live and the right to buy. I myself believe that the British can take from us as many live pigs as we can send to them. These men believe, at least, that they can make a day's living for themselves now, and at this late hour in their lives neither they nor their families can start up in a new business. They have been reared up to this business; it is as honourable and decent a trade as any other trade, and I appeal again to the Minister to take note of this in particular, and to give these people the right to live and the right to buy. They do not want fostering or subsidies from any Government. They can stand on their own feet, they are prepared to make a day's living for themselves, and we must consider them as taxpayers and ratepayers.

I hope that this point will be taken note of when the Minister is putting this new Bill into operation, because it has been a scandal during the last four years that nothing has been done, and now is the time to do it. There is no use in talking about past grievances. We must look to the future, and these people are welcoming this Bill, believing that the scandal of the last four years will be rectified and that it cannot continue much longer. We must consider these people, and we must also consider the farmers and producers, who have had a lean time. The farmer will be glad of the competition and it will be an encouragement to him to start up the production of pigs. Much has been said here about the cost of feeding stuffs and the consequent diminution in pig production. The Minister is aware of that fact and I would ask him to look into that matter and see whether or not he could give help in that direction in some way or another. Money has been found for many other things, and this is an important factor in the life of our country. It is within the scope of practically everybody in the country, every small farmer, to have a pig or two, but that has been taken from them owing to the extra cost in feeding stuffs, and in that way pig production has fallen off. If, however, the Minister would take up this business—first of all, the reduction, if possible, in the cost of feeding stuffs, and also giving the people concerned an open hand in the buying and export of live pigs—it would do much to alleviate the suffering and hardship that exist in the country at the present time.

Mr. J. Flynn

I welcome this measure, and I should like to make a few points with regard to the Minister's statement yesterday. I understand that this question of the home quota system is to be done away with, and I, for one, on behalf of the producers in our district, welcome that provision. The quota system was manipulated in such a way as to militate against production, and in the area I represent production has gone down by 70 per cent. I am not saying for a moment that the Bacon Marketing Board or the Pigs Marketing Board were altogether responsible for that, but I would say that, through their organisation and through their system, they had a good deal to do with that reduction. There are other factors, of course, such as the cost of feeding stuffs and so on, which would also militate against production, but the fact remains in any case that, in South Kerry particularly, production has gone down by about 70 per cent.

The extraordinary thing about the working out of this quota system was that the board, after a certain period, in 1936, made no real effort to put the quota system on an equitable basis. In other words, they based the quota system on the number of pigs available for distribution. After that period, however, the only thing that seemed to concern the board was how they could reduce the quota. It is obvious, then, that no matter what number of pigs was available, when the quota system was fixed at such a low figure there was always a fictitious glut of pigs on the market, and that certainly discouraged producers, and slowly but surely drove them out of business altogether. I, for one, welcome the announcement of the Minister that this quota system will be abolished and that there will be closer co-operation between the Government and the producers.

There is another factor, and that is in connection with this question of export. Mention has been made of licences and the right to export. Well, I believe that that should be governed principally by the home demand. Why allow people to export indiscriminately, if prices are driven up here? You must first of all see to it that sufficient supplies are available for the home market, and the great difficulty we see about it at the moment, and for which I hope this Bill will provide, is that the export quota allowed is given to the curer or the manufacturer on the amount of pigs available. I suggest that that should be changed to the amount of his killings. That could work out in such a way that the curer would be compelled to buy all the pigs available and, if he had an exportable surplus, he would be given a percentage on the killings. That would go a long way to meet this difficulty as regards the granting of licences and the right to export.

In regard to the new position, I should like to make the point that the price of pigs should be fixed in the light of the circumstances prevailing and of the cost of feeding stuffs. Down our way, the curers have devised a system whereby the whole countryside is overrun with agents and lorry owners who are procuring pigs for the factories. The result is that some of the towns in the area have been knocked out of business completely. The pig fairs which were held in these centres are now a thing of the past. There is no real competition. On the occasions when the pig buyers did visit these areas, no pigs were available. In nine out of ten cases, this system has worked out to the detriment of the producer. We had a glaring example recently. Soon after war was declared, there was a fair in Killorglin. The buyers and the people from the factory attended, and the result was that there was real competition and good prices were obtained. Before that, the people transferred their pigs to the factory and they had to be satisfied with whatever price prevailed. There is no real competition at the moment, so far as I can see, and I hope that the changes proposed by the present Bill as regards the quota and other matters will improve the whole industry.

The stabilised price was really a misnomer because there was no such thing as a stabilised price when we recall that the same prices were not paid in the different centres. A producer was supposed to get the same price in Tralee, Cork and Limerick for a certain grade of pig. The question of damage and loss in course of transit was not taken into account at all. When the pigs reached the factory, the producer thought he should receive the published price—the stabilised price—but he soon came to realise that there was no such thing and that reference to a stabilised price was misleading to the public. The board resorted, intentionally or otherwise, to all those arrangements, more or less, to suit themselves. The producer was losing all the time and there was no hope of any redress for him while that system obtained.

Another matter about which I am anxious is as to how the industry is to be revived—how we are to get back to the system prevailing some years ago when the small holder produced pigs at prices remunerative to himself. The only way I can suggest is that, under this Bill, you should have a simplified system—that it be so arranged that you have no such thing as gradings and quotas and all these stipulations which were embodied in previous measures, that you fix the prices within the ambit of the capacity of these people to produce, taking into consideration the cost of feeding stuffs and the remoteness of the areas in which the people reside. If some conditions like those were taken cognisance of by the commission, it would go a long way to re-establish the old custom in these areas.

There is no use in saying—I have not said it—that the board was completely responsible for the decline of 70 per cent. in pig production in the Gaeltacht districts. Certainly, that was not the case in South Kerry. There were, as I have said, other factors operating. I hope that this measure will give us an opportunity of re-establishing the whole system as heretofore. The complaint made against the board in the past was that the representatives of the producers were not active, that they were not competent to stand up against the machinations and moves of the curers— the people who had a monopoly. In other words, the producer was not properly represented on those boards and, consequently, the people suffered by not having their case put forward in the proper light.

Mr. Brennan

They were not represented on the bacon board at all; that was the difficulty.

Mr. Flynn

Whatever representatives they had did not make their case.

Mr. Brennan

They did not get the chance because they were not on the board that did the manipulation. There were two boards.

Mr. Flynn

They had the opportunity on several occasions but the people they selected did not make their case for them.

Mr. Brennan

They had not the opportunity.

Mr. Flynn

I suggest that, on this commission, the producers should be represented by men who know their business—not men nominated by the Department or by a group, but well-known farmers or producers. We have one such man in Kerry—Mr. O'Connor, of Castleisland, who is an authority on the subject. He produces 200 or 300 pigs per month. That is the type I should like to see representing the producers. I would go so far as to say that the pig buyers should have representation on such a commission. All these interests could be represented. It would go a long way to do what I am suggesting, to revive and re-establish the pig industry in its proper position.

Mr. Brennan

Not in this Bill, either.

Mr. Flynn

I make these suggestions to the Minister in the hope that they may be implemented by way of amendment or otherwise. The question of export is one about which I am very anxious. It is this question of allowing a quota on the killings and not on the number available which makes the great difference. I understand from people who have had experience and who have been in the trade for years that that really is the kernel of the whole system. This will tend to greater competition and will force the curer and all others concerned to go out in the open market against the pig dealers and other people and make them pay the highest possible price. At the moment the quota is allowed—not on a fictitious figure, of course—on the number supposed to be available in the country. It is easy to manipulate figures and assume that there are certain numbers available and fix a quota on that; but fixing a quota on the actual killings at the factory and allowing the curer to export 40 per cent. or 20 per cent. of those killings, according as the Department will allow him to export, and saying that this is our exportable surplus, is, I think, the nearest you can go. I only make these suggestions to the Minister with a view to remedying the discrepancies that have occurred through the various workings of the board.

Mr. F. Lynch

I think it was a pity that the Minister missed any word of Deputy Flynn's speech. It was certainly refreshing to me, since it is the first time that I have heard Deputy Flynn talk without saying that nothing but good could come out of Fianna Fáil. He has now admitted to the House that nothing but evil has come out of the legislation hitherto passed dealing with the pig industry. Our fairs in the country towns have been ruined and, consequently, the country towns have been ruined. The farmers who were able to bring their pigs in and obtain a competitive price for them in a competitive market have suffered in consequence of the legislation that has been passed in recent years. That is Deputy Flynn's admission, and I agree with him. However desirable this rationalisation and regulation of the pig industry may have been, the net result has been that very many of the small country towns have suffered exceedingly. Certainly the farming community has not benefited in the prices obtained. Certainly, also, the industry has not been improved by all this regulation that has been going on.

Deputy Flynn has advocated—if I understood him rightly—that we go back holus-bolus to the old system, "because," he says, "we have to concentrate now on considering how the industry can be revived." Later on he says that the whole system should be re-established as heretofore. That is the answer, in Deputy Flynn's view, and I hope the Minister will take note of it and consider carefully the situation. If he cannot go the whole way, he should go that portion of the way advocated from these benches by Deputy Coburn, by Deputy Mrs. Redmond, by Deputy Hughes and others, and give the pig buyers a chance of going to fairs and buying against the curers. If he goes that far he will benefit the towns and I believe he will benefit pig producers in the prices they get.

I came to the House really to express my regret that the Minister did not take this opportunity to scrap the ridiculous system of arbitration that he provided in Section 39 of the 1937 Act. That section provides for payment to former curers. Where former curers were put out of action, they could apply to the Bacon Marketing Board for compensation and, if they were not satisfied with the compensation, they could appeal to arbitrators; but the system of arbitration as set out in sub-section (3) says:—

The amount of compensation payable to a person under this section shall, in default of agreement between such person and the board, be determined and fixed by three arbitrators appointed under this section, and the decision of such arbitrators shall be final and conclusive.

Sub-section (4) says:—

Where compensation is payable to any person under this section, the Minister shall, unless the amount thereof has been fixed by agreement between such person and the board, appoint the chairman of the board and two other persons to be arbitrators to fix the amount of such compensation.

Look at that position. Here is a man who has a grievance regarding the sum he is offered by way of compensation by the Bacon Marketing Board. He can go to arbitration and one of the arbitrators who is to decide as between himself and the board is the chairman of the board. The two parties to the arbitration are the board and the former curer, and the dice is loaded against the former curer from the word "Go", as one of the three arbitrators is the chairman of the board.

Apart from the fact that the dice is loaded against the former curer, it is an impossible position for the chairman of the board. In the first instance, when the former curer presumably applied for compensation, presumably the board went into his claim and decided on a certain sum. Let us suppose for one moment the board decided to give a former curer £1,000. He might claim £10,000 or £15,000 for being put out of business. Supposing he went to arbitrators. There was the chairman of the board, knowing that his board—to whom, to some extent (even though he was chairman) he was a servant and in their power—had fixed £1,000 as the sum they were prepared to pay. How could he agree to a figure of say £3,000 or £4,000, and go back to the board and answer the questions they would ask? They would naturally say: "Mr. chairman, how can you justify agreeing to pay a sum of £3,000 after knowing here that £1,000 was the sum to be paid?" It was an impossible position for the chairman of the board, and it was a denial of justice, in my view, to the former curer to have the chairman of the board as one of the arbitrators.

We have had very many Bills going through and boards being formed which involved, through their operations, subsequent arbitration; but in no case was anything of this type done. For instance, the Electricity Supply Board when established acquired land in various places in order to carry out their scheme. What would farmers, whose land was being acquired, think if the arbitration fixed under the Electricity Supply Act entailed an arbitration board which had the chairman of the Electricity Supply Board as one member of the board of arbitrators? Of course, that was not done. The Minister, in the 1939 Fisheries Act, provides for arbitration in regard to the acquisition of fisheries. He does not provide there that the arbitrator, or one of the arbitrators, should be a member of his Department, because it would be manifestly unjust. It is just as unjust that the chairman of this board should have been one of these arbitrators, and the Minister is perpetuating that in Section 49 of the Bill. That section provides, amongst other things, that references in Section 39 of the 1937 Act to the chairman of the Bacon Marketing Board shall be construed as references to the chairman of the Pigs and Bacon Commission; in other words, in future, the chairman of that commission will be a member of the board of arbitrators to decide as between a former curer and the commission. I think the Minister should make up his mind to change that whole system of arbitration on Committee Stage.

The arbitration is wrong from another point of view. It might not be so bad if two of that board of three could make an award, but, actually, as the law stands, they can make no award unless they are unanimous. If a man declined to accept the compensation offered to him by the Bacon Marketing Board and the matter went to arbitration and if the chairman said: "That is the sum fixed by my board and I am not going one penny higher"; and if two of the members say the sum should be twice as much, unless they could bring the chairman of the commission, as it will be now, to agree with them, they could never make an award in favour of that former curer. That is manifestly an injustice, and no matter how great an angel the chairman might be, he would at least be suspect. No man in his position could be anything but suspect when he is put in the position of being an arbitrator as between his own board and the person who has a grievance. I do not know who suggested it to the Minister in the first instance. It is an amazing principle to adopt in relation to arbitration. I hope the Minister will look into it and that he will see, firstly, that the chairman, or any member of the commission, is no longer a member of the arbitration body and, secondly, that he will establish an arbitration body which can function; in other words, that he will establish a body of which an award by two members, if it consists of three members, will have legal effect and be binding, or to have one of the three appointed as umpire to decide as between the rival claimants where there is no agreement.

Mr. McGovern

This is the fourth Bill we have had within four years to deal with pigs and bacon. Each successive Bill was a condemnation of the previous Bill or Bills, and I suppose the next Bill will be a condemnation of this. The avowed object of these Bills was to help the producer, and we may accept that anything that helps the producer would have the effect of increasing the production, but the net effect of all the three previous Bills was to drive people out of production of pigs. Therefore, without the condemnation which each Bill pronounced upon the previous Bill, that very fact, in itself, condemns the whole interference so far as it has gone. However, this Bill is a step away from the rigid control. It is a relaxation, and to that extent it is welcome. We are getting away from the production quota and some of the other restrictions. I believe that the farther we can get away from all these restrictions, and the nearer we can get to competition as between the exporters of live pigs and the bacon curers, the better. If the Bill is intended to help the pig producer, I do not see why there should be any restrictions upon export, upon any competitive market which the pig producer can find. It may be contended that it is not compatible with the aim of the Bill, stabilisation, to have free and open competition as between the exporter of live pigs and the bacon curers but, at any rate, so far as it is not detrimental to the stabilisation aim, the Minister should give free com petition, or give licences to competitors to export pigs alive.

There are special difficulties, as Deputy Dillon and others have pointed out, in the case of Monaghan and Cavan. The Minister is well aware that there have been difficulties in these counties, and certainly in these counties in particular, the Minister should see that licences are granted for the export of live pigs. There are complaints from almost all counties, and so far as I can gather, the consensus of opinion from all sides of the House is that all these schemes have proved a failure, and I believe that if the war continues, the trade might very well be left in the care of itself. It would be in the interests of the producers to leave it to itself, and I hope the Minister, if he finds that war conditions would be favourable to such a course, will take that course and scrap, or suspend, the operations of the Bill. The real test of the success or failure of these measures is the pig population and, of course, the pig population, as the Minister and everybody else knows, goes to show that these measures have proved a failure.

I do not suppose that that is entirely due to the measures controlling pigs and bacon, but these measures, in conjunction with the maize-meal mixture scheme and the other schemes which have increased the cost of feeding stuffs out of proportion to the price of bacon, have finished the pig industry, just as they have almost finished the fowl and bacon industry of the country. These are the most important branches of the industry for the smaller people, for the small farmer and the agricultural labourer down the country. They are the most important branches of agriculture for such people and they affect relatively a greater number than any other branch of the industry, so that anything that can be done to improve the position of the pig producer, and to encourage more production, will be a benefit to all classes in the State, and will also do something to relieve taxation and to enable taxation to be paid.

One would imagine from the measures previously in operation that they were intended, not for the benefit of the producer, but for the benefit of the curer. The curers have made fortunes. That has been proved 100 times over. It has been proved by people who were in the business themselves. The Minister was not able to check them while pig producers were driven out of production.

I think that, when the Minister is introducing a new Bill and is still continuing a certain amount of control, he should be very careful to see that it is operated for the benefit of the producer. So far, these measures have all been operated for the benefit of the curer. It is time the producer should get a chance. I agree with other Deputies who have recommended that the best way to promote the producer's interests is to get nearer to a competitive position under which the exporter of live pigs could compete with the curer. Monopolies are always tempted to use the advantage which they have for their own benefit. Human nature being what it is, we cannot expect monopolies to do the fair thing with regard to those with whom they are dealing. Their first interest is to secure their own advantage and they are not very scrupulous as to the means which they adopt or how far they are prepared to go. I would be the last to blame them, but I would certainly blame anybody who confers that power on them. This House should not pass legislation which will have the effect of creating monopolies with powers of that kind. If we are going to have monopolies, as we are, the Minister should exercise strict control over them. He should not come to the House afterwards and say that he has no responsibility. Now is the time to ensure that he will have responsibility. So long as he is handing over a monopoly in any branch of business to any party in the State, he should have a controlling power over them and should be able to come into this House and answer for their actions. Otherwise, I would be against giving anything in the shape of a monopoly in the carrying on of any industry under this system.

There is just one other point to which I would like to refer. Most other points have been dealt with by other speakers, but this is a matter which has not been referred to by anybody. Is there any obligation on the bacon curers with regard to the quality of bacon they sell on the home market? The bacon offered for sale in shops down the country is of a most inferior quality and it is not cured. The shopkeepers cannot get the right quality and the bacon which they have for sale is not properly cured. The Minister should see that the curers sell a decent article on the home market when they are charging such an extraordinary price for it. The price is high and everybody is complaining about it, but consumers cannot even get a decent article. That is treating the unfortunate consumers of this country, especially the poorer classes, with contempt. So long as these monopolies have the sole right to cure bacon as against all others, an obligation should be imposed upon them to sell a decent article, that they should sell cured bacon that would keep for a fair time. They should not be allowed to sell all the inferior bacon they have on hands at a price 3d. or 4d. per lb. above the price on the foreign market. I think it is time they should be compelled to discharge this responsibility to the consumer. I hope that the Minister will take note of that and take some steps to see that my suggestions are carried out. I urge upon him to exercise more control on the bacon curers in future and not hand over that responsibility to two or three individuals, however competent they may be. The Minister himself, so long as he is giving a monopoly to the curer, should keep a certain check on their activities.

Dr. Hannigan

I am intervening in this debate solely for the purpose of inviting the Minister, when he is replying, to give an assurance that the interests of a section of the community that have been shamefully overlooked in the past will be safeguarded under this new Bill and under the new regulations in relation to the pig and bacon industry. I am referring, of course, to consumers. It is a notorious and regrettable fact that bacon has practically disappeared from the breakfast table of a large section of the community. Whilst I have no intention of trying to emulate Charles Lamb in his dissertation on roast pork, or to give a dissertation on the dietetic value of bacon, the Minister knows as well as I do that bacon is a most important food, that it has a very high calorific value, that it is a great supplier of heat and energy and that as compared, weight for weight, with other fat and protein foods, the balance is very much in favour of bacon. I think that is a very important fact to bear in mind at a time when the cost of living shows a continuous rise in trend. I mention these points merely for the purpose of urging the Minister to give very serious attention to the consumer's interest because if one is to place any reliance on the information that has been revealed in criticism of the chairman of the commission, who has been referred to very often in the course of the debate, one cannot help thinking that there is very much greater need for Ministerial vigilance in connection with this industry. As regards the chairman of the commission, I am prepared to accept it that he is a person who is likely to learn by his blunders and failures of the past and that he will make, in all probability, a complete success of his duties in his new capacity. As to why the Minister has been so soft-hearted and so indulgent in appointing to that position a person with such an unconvincing record is, of course, a horse of another colour.

I indicated at the opening that I got on my feet mainly for the purpose of inviting the Minister to give an assurance to the House that the interests of consumers will be adequately protected. According to what we have heard, the pig and bacon industry is promised a great boom. Of course, anybody with an eye in his head could have predicted a long while ago that, as the war developed, there would be an almost illimitable market in England for pig and bacon products. I do hope that that boom will reflect itself in very considerable advantage to the thousands of people in our towns and cities, and that, with the expansion of this industry, the increase in exports will not produce a diminution in the supplies of bacon for home consumption.

Mr. Victory

The criticism of this Bill has been, I am glad to say, of a constructive character from all sides of the House, with the exception of the contributions we had from the lawyers which, of course, was to be expected. I welcome the suggestions that were made by Deputies who are producers of pigs. Some speakers struck the note that it was mismanagement on the part of the Government that led to a reduction in the output of pigs. I do not want to go into figures in detail, but in 1932 the price for bacon was 47/- a cwt.

Mr. Dillon

And what was the price of Indian meal in that year?

Mr. Victory

In reply to the Deputy's question, may I ask him, suppose there is a sea blockade within the next month and there is no Indian meal to be had, does it follow that the farmers of this country must go out of pig production? I have been in the pig industry all my life and I know a little about it. I say that if there is an emergency there should be some means of producing pigs except on a maize-meal mixture. I believe in the admixture scheme. When we talk about compulsory tillage, I think we should keep an eye on pig production, and absorb some of the mixture for that purpose. I believe that, if this sea blockade becomes effective, we will be driven back on the admixture scheme. I would go further and say that we could still have the admixture scheme but for all the prejudice that was worked up about it from the Opposition side of the House. I am satisfied that the people would be glad to have it still.

What I cannot understand is that people should ask for guaranteed prices for oats and other things and at the same time advocate a maize-meal mixture for feeding almost everything. How can you guarantee a price. I heard Deputies to-day say that they were glad the quota was gone, and then they went on to talk about bringing back the local fairs. To a certain extent, I would agree with a lot of that, but what I want to know from Deputies who speak in that way is this: How are you going to guarantee prices except at the factories. As I understand it, you cannot give a guaranteed price for what is sold on the fairs. There is nothing to prevent people who are dissatisfied with the prices offered at the fairs sending their pigs to the factories. Therefore, I say that if you are to have guaranteed prices they must be at the factories and nowhere else.

I am ready to admit, with other Deputies, that there is an atmosphere of distrust all over the country in this matter of trying to arrange prices. My advice to the Minister is that he should keep control over prices and be ready to come to this House in connection with the actions of the Bacon Board. I feel that if he is prepared to do that it will create a feeling of confidence in the people. They will have confidence if they know that any matters that call for attention can be raised in the Dáil from time to time. If the Minister has not that control, then stories, whether well-founded or not, will be circulated through the country, sometimes in the interests of rings. I heard a Deputy say to-day that when we had the local fairs and markets there was open competition and that everything went on all right. Speaking from experience, I can say that we had rings in those days also. The buyers were able to fix the price to be paid for the pigs on offer, so that something had to be done to save the people from the operations of those rings.

I welcome the effort to increase pig production. I cannot agree with some of the suggestions that were made, for, after all, we must have some regard for the national Exchequer. I would say to the Minister that he should see to it that the sow scheme will be a benefit to producers. It has been said that it was interference in the past that led to a reduction in the pig population. In my opinion it was the prices paid for pigs as far back as 1931 and 1932 that led to that situation. Owing to the war there is a feeling in the country that better prices will be obtainable from now on. I would say to the Minister that he should immediately set about getting all the free sows distributed because the pig industry is not like any other industry. Within a period of 12 months you can bring that industry into full production. If the scheme outlined by the Minister is put into operation at once, you will have a big number of poor but industrious people living in remote parts of the country on barren pieces of land, many of them only able to keep a few cows, getting back into pig production, and thereby able to make a living for themselves. In conclusion I welcome the Bill. I hope the Minister will keep control over prices because that is the one thing that will give confidence to the people.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Dáil ought to be told what the Minister's policy is in connection with the pig industry. From my examination of nearly all the publications available in connection with it, and of the speeches that have been made, I have not yet been able to discover what the policy of the Minister is in relation to pig production in this country. If examined from the point of view of the prices paid for pigs, the Minister's policy has failed. In fact, we do not know what the Minister's policy is in regard to pig production. If one were to be guided by the views expressed by Deputies in different parts of the House, it would almost become a conviction that pig production here was uneconomic and that the Minister's principal policy should be directed towards keeping it within certain specified limits. In my view the Pigs and Bacon Act, and the amendments to it which have been passed into law, have all failed to deal with any phase of this pig problem. That legislation succeeded in doing one thing, namely, to improve the position of bacon curers in this country. One cannot discover from a perusal of the Pigs and Bacon Act of 1935, and the amendments to it, of the Tariff Commission Report published in 1932, or of the Report of the Pigs and Bacon Tribunal set up in 1933, and what has followed since, what the Government policy is on this matter.

Yesterday, in the course of a discussion on the Finance Bill, one of the younger Deputies, presumably a rising hope of the Fianna Fáil Party, discussed here the relative incidence of taxation in this country and compared it with that of other countries large and small. I forget for the moment whether he mentioned the case of Denmark. The Pigs Industries Tribunal in their elaborate set of returns, gave figures showing the value of the bacon exports and pig exports generally by Denmark to the British market. These returns showed that these exports reached a figure as high as £27,000,000 in some years and even in the worst period of the depression the figure was as high as £20,000,000. Our exports have declined very considerably in respect of pigs and pig products during the last few years. I find in the Banking Commission Report that the average annual income of a citizen of Denmark is approximately £58. It does appear difficult to understand that a country like Denmark has an income of £7 or £8 a year more per head of the population than we have here and is nevertheless able to export such huge quantities of bacon to the British market. They have been able to make a success of it. They have been able to make money out of it. We have considered here during the past few years every conceivable sort of regimentation that the Minister's Department could think of. Nevertheless, we are still in the condition in which we have to change our minds regarding the methods that were adopted to deal with this problem.

If it were not for the persuasiveness of Deputy Dillon in respect to this Bill I would vote against it and recommend my colleagues to vote against it. If the Minister wants to know what sort of method I would advise him to adopt in that regard it would be to repeal the Pigs and Bacon Acts of 1935, of 1937 and of 1938. That, to my mind, would be a better method of dealing with this problem than what we are engaged in at the moment, because it is more than likely, as a result of the repeal of those three Acts, that there might be an expansion in production. As I have said, nobody could say what the Government policy is with regard to the production of pigs in this country. We are told that the price is to be regulated in accordance with a whole series of formulae of one kind or another, and one of the things that was to enter into consideration in fixing the price, if there is going to be a fixed price, is the capacity of the markets, both home and export, for bacon; the quantity of bacon which the board anticipates is required to be placed in cold storage against future requirements, the stock of bacon in supply, the pigs likely to be available, and such other matters as the board considers relevant. Examined critically, that means that we are at a static state of production. To me that appears to mean to secure that the people will not increase the production of pigs. That view is to some extent borne out when one reads this first Interim Report of the Agricultural Commission on the bacon and pigs industry. Unfortunately, one must mention politics in a matter of this sort. This Agricultural Commission is weighted to a very considerable extent by the Minister's political supporters.

One of the recommendations in connection with this particular report is that certain people who have made a success of pig production and who are not farmers should be dissuaded from going into that particular industry. To my mind that is an utterly erroneous conception of judgment on this matter. The House ought to be informed as soon as possible whether or not the Minister is endeavouring to increase the price of pigs in the country. That is the first consideration. If the Minister is satisfied he must keep it down, if he is satisfied that the price must not go beyond a certain figure, then the less methods of regulation we adopt towards fixing the price the better. If we were to take the view, as the people in Denmark take, that this pig production is an economic proposition, some of the terms on this particular matter which according to the Bill the Board ought to consider when fixing the price, ought to be eliminated altogether from the list.

The second matter to be considered is how they were to consider the question of making the pig industry in this country an economic proposition. How we are going to ensure the highest price possible to those engaged in pig production? I am not satisfied from what I have heard here that that is the policy that the Minister is directing the commission or committee or whatever you like to call this new institution, to perform. There are in different parts of the country at the present moment pigs available for sale for which a higher price can be paid— and will be paid if they are allowed to be exported—than the price the bacon curers will give for them. Whose interests are we considering in this matter? If we are considering the bacon curers, let us have a Bacon Curers Bill which will deal with them, and put out of commission any agent or purchasers that will increase the price that the bacon curers have got to pay. If, on the other hand, we are concerned for the farmers of this country as such; if we are concerned for the pig producers as such and for the real economic advantages of the ordinary people of this country, then let the people who have goods to sell get the highest price possible. Let there be no interference. Our information is, and I am giving it for what it is worth, that persons in possession of fat pigs can to-day if they sell them for export as live pigs, get 84/- per cwt. for them and that the curers cannot give more than 75/- a cwt. for those pigs. If that is correct the position is very bad. In my opinion, any man whether by statute or otherwise who prevents those people from getting the highest price for their pigs is doing an injustice to the people of this country. He might as well put his hands into their pockets and take the money out of it.

The extraordinary regimentation that there was in the Pigs and Bacon Acts of 1935 and of 1937 is, with very limited exceptions, carried out in this measure. We are told that there is to be a commission appointed; that it is to be composed of two civil servants and one other person to be nominated by the Minister. The usual conception of a commission is that it sits, acts and votes by majority; that, whatever decisions are taken, are taken at the resposibility of the commission acting as a whole, and if and when there is a division the majority decision rules. In this Bill which is now down for consideration by the Dáil there is a clause which keeps in operation a power which under one of the previous Acts was exercised by the chairman of the Pigs and Bacon Board. Section 21, sub-section (2) says:

On the transfer date the powers under Section 68 of the Act of 1937 which immediately before the transfer date were exercised or performed or capable of being exercised or performed by the Chairman of the Pigs Marketing Board shall be and are hereby transferred to and conferred on the Chairman of the commission.

Now Section 68 of the Act of 1937 says in sub-section (1):—

Whenever the Board receives from any person a producer's tender stating that he is able and willing to deliver, during the week to which such tender relates the number (in this section referred to as the number tendered) of pigs set out in such tender, the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say:—

(a) the Chairman of the Board may make an order (in this section referred to as the said order) requiring—

(i) such person (in this section referred to as the vendor) to sell and deliver to the licensee of specified licensed premises (in this section referred to as the purchaser), at such premises and on such day or days during such week as the purchaser may direct, a specified number (not exceeding the number tendered less such number of pigs as the vendor may be required to sell and deliver by another order under this section previously made in relation to such week, nor exceeding the slaughtering quota in respect of such premises for such week less such number of pigs as the purchaser may be required to purchase and take delivery of at such premises by another order under this section previously made in relation to such week) of pigs, being pigs in the possession and at the premises of the vendor for at least four weeks before the date of such producer's tender.

That is the type of terminology that is running right through this Act, from one end of it to the other. At the end of it, it says that any violation of the terms of this order will incur a penalty, and that it will be a good defence for the purchaser to say it was the vendor's fault or for the vendor to say it was the purchaser's fault, and to prove it.

We can understand only by a most exhaustive study of this whole pigs and bacon problem from its earliest stage what is the meaning of that. The aim was to get a particular type of pig, the bacon from which would constitute the very best and highest quality. But, in practice, what has happened? The people were informed that if they sent those pigs to the factory, they would get the highest price for them. They sent them to the factory. Some time afterwards a cheque was sent to them. I suppose the time varied from period to period. Some people complained that they were kept a month without their money. The scheme was theoretically a magnificent scheme. Did it work out in practice? Have we got by reason of all those regulations a higher quality standard for our bacon on the British market than we had before? I should be very glad to hear it, but the results do not appear to indicate that such is the case. By reason of this extraordinary regimentation, the factories are not allowed to take in certain pigs, with the result that they have to be brought home, kept for some time, and then sold at a lower price per cwt. The pig producers are almost frightened to death by the variety and extent of those regulations. As I say, if it were not for the persuasiveness of Deputy Dillon I should be disposed to vote against this measure.

On page 8 of the Prices Commission Report to the Minister for Industry and Commerce in connection with the price charged for bacon, including hams and gammons, they say towards the end of paragraph 12:

"The relevant section (No. 147 of the Act of 1935) of the Act contains a qualified formula for the limitation of such payments to curers but, in our opinion and as interpreted by the Pigs Marketing Board, no limitation, excepting the capacity of the fund to bear such payments, applied."

It appears to me, having read the Prices Commission's Report, having read the application of the bacon curers for a tariff, and the Pig Industries Tribunal Report, that the qualified person to be chairman either of the Pigs Marketing Board or of the Bacon Marketing Board or of this commission would be a person having accountancy qualifications and experience, that it would require a man trained in accountancy to deal properly with this matter. I wonder whether that has occurred to the Minister?

If the Minister is of opinion that pig production in this country is of economic importance, and that a restoration of public confidence in such an important industry as bacon curing is of importance, then he should appoint such a person as chairman of that commission, or as one of the three persons so appointed, or as secretary to the commission, having the right, if dissatisfied with the commission's decision, to make a special report to the Minister, it being incumbent on the Minister to produce that report to this House. To my mind, the sooner something of that sort is done in connection with this whole matter the better. This whole business, lasting over so many years, is a sorry reflection upon our administrative capacity in this country. In my view, as I have said, this particular measure is not going to improve matters. We are still in the same maze of regulations, regimentation and interferences, and it is a costly business. A very important body has reported on the excess profits which have been made. I am not inclined to think that they were made by all the bacon-curing establishments; I am satisfied that there are in that business, as there are in others, honest men, but from whatever angle it is examined, either from the point of view of the economy of pig production in this country, or from the bacon-curing angle, or from the angle of the consumer, it is obvious that we have not yet nearly approached a solution of this business.

The Minister's undertaking to have the business of this commission considered in this House is not a practicable one. If, from any cause, a number of Deputies have questions down here each week that the House is sitting, asking is the Minister aware that so many pigs offered for sale at such and such a fair were not bought, or could not be sold, by reason of the limitation of licences, or something of that sort, well, the Minister might as well have control of the whole commission. It is unsatisfactory from every angle. Certainly, from our experience of what has happened up to this, it is obvious there must be some reservation of authority, some control left so far as the House is concerned. Presumably, other Deputies get such letters as I have got from four curers in the County Cork, who say:—

"Cork producers have to suffer on innumerable occasions the hardship of having their pigs refused by local factories, and of losing an amount equivalent to 3/- to 5/- per pig according to destination to which pigs are sent."

This letter points out that the factories have not been in a position to get delivery from the local districts of pigs that they could turn into bacon. I should like to know from the Minister if such complaints as that are going to be remedied in this measure.

Lastly, I would say this, that so far as this and the previous commissions are concerned, they suffer from one very serious infirmity. The previous commission would appear to have been set up for the express purpose of ensuring to a particular class engaged in this business the right to preserve their own interest. Now we have two civil servants and a nominee of the Minister. Obviously, they are theorists, people experienced, I will admit, in connection with the regimenting of industry, but there is no person with a business touch in connection with the whole thing. I put it to the Minister that if he wants to make an effort towards improving a situation that is a discredit to him, to his Department, to the Government and to the State, whoever is to bear the primary responsibility in this connection must be a person who can deal with the matters that come under review by the Prices Commission, such matters as have been dealt with by the Pig Industries Tribunal and in the report of the Tariff Commission. There is such a person in the service of the State who, in my opinion, is qualified for that, and if you look up the personnel of those two bodies you will probably find the person I mean.

Dr. Ryan

We have had a fairly long debate on this Bill and Deputies will realise that it would be absolutely impossible to deal with all the points raised in the very short time that is left to me to reply.

Mr. Cosgrave

We agree.

Dr. Ryan

First of all, I would like everybody to realise that the original Bill was drafted on the recommendations made by the Pig Industries Tribunal, that that Bill was passed by the Dáil and Seanad in 1935, and that we are much wiser now. I am much wiser, just as well as Deputies opposite.

Mr. Dillon

May I interrupt the Minister for a moment? As the Leader of the Opposition indicated, we do not intend to divide on this Bill, and, unless somebody else notifies the Government of their desire to do so, the position is that we will be quite willing to allow the Minister to go on longer than 2 o'clock, if he wants to. It may be that he prefers to reserve his detailed observations for the next stage of the Bill, but do not let him think that we are rushing him in any case.

Dr. Ryan

Perhaps I may go on until 10 or 15 minutes past 2 o'clock.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I take it there is no objection?

Mr. Gorey

No opposition.

Dr. Ryan

As I said, I am much wiser now as a result of the operation of previous legislation, and that is why these amendments are being made. I do not see why Deputy Cosgrave should endeavour to throw a mantle around himself as if he knew all along what was going to go wrong. If he had that knowledge, he did not tell us about it in 1935 when the Bill was going through. We all thought then that we were doing the best we could. We adopted the recommendations of the tribunal. The Bill was brought forward here and it was criticised. Some people on this side disagreed with certain items and some people on the Opposition Benches disagreed with certain items. We had a committee sitting on it and it came back to this House for the Report Stage, and, so far as I remember, Deputy Cosgrave did not tell us what was going to go wrong. He tells us all about it now, but I could do that, too.

This commission is only a temporary expedient. Various things have been recommended. The Agricultural Commission recommended rationalisation. Deputy Dillon said that rationalisation almost inevitably leads to State ownership. Perhaps he is right—I do not know. Some of the members of the Agricultural Commission recommended co-operative societies. If you had any form of rationalisation I think it is fairly obvious that whatever board would control the whole industry would be constituted on a different basis. For instance, if there were co-operative societies you would have a federation of co-operatives, as in other countries, regulating the industry to a certain extent, with a law to control them in certain respects. The idea I have is that this commission should go in and carry on the functions that were carried on up to this by the two boards, and at the same time seek to get a good deal of information and experience, and they would be the people who would, I hope, be valuable after some time in advising the Minister and the Dáil as to what form of organisation we could set up to be the permanent organisation, as far as possible, to control the industry.

It is quite possible that the commission, after some experience of the work, may say that there is no necessity for any board; that there is no reason why the price-fixing and the other things should not be done by the Department. It is quite possible they may say: "We recommend a board constituted on a certain basis, representative of the curers, the producers, the consumers, the pig-dealers, the wholesalers and the retailers." They may recommend that all these parties should be represented on the board. I have no idea what this commission may say in 12 months' time, when they get an amount of experience and knowledge of the working of this thing. I have no idea what they may recommend as a more permanent basis of control.

Deputy Dillon was, I think, a bit hard on the curers when he referred to them as brigands. When he was speaking of the pig dealers he said they took their profit when they could get it and he did not find any fault with them for that. Neither do I. I do not think it is right to say that the curers used their position on the board to make these undue profits. I said before that I did not want to stand up for the curers, but at least the particular curers who were on the board were not in any better position to make profits than any curer who was not on the board.

Mr. Gorey

That does not cut much ice.

Dr. Ryan

Undoubtedly, they have been proved to have made exorbitant profits over certain years, still I think it is hardly fair to accuse the individuals on the board of using their position on the board and whatever privileges they may have had there to make exorbitant profits.

Mr. Dillon

We did not make that accusation.

Dr. Ryan

I am not saying Deputy Dillon made that particular accusation.

Mr. Gorey

The position was made safe for all.

Dr. Ryan

Whatever profits were made they all made.

Mr. Dillon

They were all brigands together.

Dr. Ryan

The point I want to come to is this. Deputy MacMenamin brought out the point clearer than any other Deputy. He said the fact that we were bringing in this commission was an admission that the other boards had failed in their duty and that they were incompetent and so on. I do not think that these boards were incompetent. I think it was the legislation that was wrong. Remember these boards had to work within certain legislation. They had to follow the Act. They had to follow whatever regulations were made under the Act and they were made by the Department, not by themselves. They made their own regulations to suit themselves but whatever legislation was passed by the Dáil and Seanad and whatever regulations were made by the Minister under that Act they had to work within those and I think it was the legislation and the regulations that were defective and that we have not proved a case at any rate that the boards were in any way incompetent considering the four walls within which they had to work.

Mr. Gorey

I think they were very competent, from one angle anyhow.

Dr. Ryan

I think also that Deputy Dillon did not deal fairly with the hypothetical price. Deputy Gorey pointed out, and I agree with Deputy Gorey, that it is hardly fair to say that the board took certain moneys from the producers and gave it back to themselves. After all, they took it from the same source to which they gave it back whether you say they took it from the producers and gave it back to the producers or that they took it from themselves and gave it back to themselves. At least we must have it one way or the other. The position about this hypothetical price was that it was impossible to carry on export, for instance, at certain times and keep up the price of pigs as it was without paying some sort of subsidy. Let us take the month before the war started, the month of August. At that time the price of bacon on the Irish market was ranging from 80/- to 90/-. As far as I can remember—I have not had time to go into it now—I think what the board was getting, or the curers, at that time was about 84/- on the British market, and at the same time they were paying 72/- for pigs.

Mr. Dillon

For what grade of pigs?

Dr. Ryan

72/- for top grade.

Mr. Dillon

And how many pigs went in at the top grade?

Dr. Ryan

You will find from the returns from the boards that the average price paid for all pigs is at all times about 2/- under the top.

Mr. Dillon

Under the bonus grade?

Dr. Ryan

No, I do not say under the bonus grade, but under the top price. The bonus was a new thing.

Mr. Dillon

Yes.

Dr. Ryan

At any rate, I am not giving firm figures here. I do not remember them exactly. I know the position in that month was that no curer could possibly keep up his export trade to the British market unless he got some subsidy. So, there was a necessity for paying a subsidy under the hypothetical fund, and in reality that went to the producer, because otherwise the producer could not have got that price for pigs.

Mr. Gorey

May I ask the Minister what was the Irish price at the time the price was 84/- in England?

Dr. Ryan

On account of the hypothetical levy it was much higher here. It was taken off the home consumer and given on the export bacon at the time.

Mr. Gorey

It was the consumer, not the producer, who was paying the subsidy.

Dr. Ryan

The consumer was paying it, and the producer was getting it.

Mr. Gorey

The consumer was footing the bill.

Mr. Dillon

I do not want to wrangle with the Minister on a point of that kind at this moment when he is trying to conclude, but I do not accept the Minister's version of that story. We can postpone the argument of that for another day.

Dr. Ryan

There has been a lot of talk about the question of control of competition at fairs and markets. As far as I know, no Deputy opposite would be prepared to drop all control, fixed prices and everything else, although at the present time, with the export market for bacon at a fixed price and so on, there might not be so much danger in doing that now, that is, withdrawing the Acts completely, as there was, say, two or three months ago. But no Deputy has advocated that except perhaps Deputy Cosgrave, who said he would be prepared to do that. I might be prepared to do it myself but I am looking to the future. What I said here last night, Deputy Hughes bore out to-day. He said we were going to have a very difficult position here when the war is over. My idea is that this commission should carry on the functions of the two boards, get all the information they can, and try and produce a scheme for us, the best possible scheme they can, with regard to the control of bacon production, marketing and everything else, that will give us the greatest possible benefit when the war is over, and see if we can hold our position when that time comes. If it were not for that reason for putting that commission in there to get the experience that I hope they will get and to keep things normally carried on a case might be made to drop control entirely.

Mr. Gorey

You would have difficulty there again.

Dr. Ryan

Possibly you would. But we should not forget what the position was before the original legislation in 1935. I remember on the Second Reading speech I quoted from some of the daily papers of that day. I quoted the prices in different places all over the country, and one place was 5/- higher per cwt. than another and for live pigs you had the same differences. That showed, of course, that somebody was not paying the proper value for pigs and that control was necessary.

Mr. Gorey

The price was only being paid where the pinhead competition was.

Mr. Dillon

The more competition you had the better price you got.

Dr. Ryan

I do not think so. It is quite obvious that with all the competition of the factories and the exporters and so on, at some markets, at any rate, before that control came in, the proper price was not paid for pigs.

Mr. Dillon

I hope the Minister is not forgetting we had a little economic war in 1935.

Dr. Ryan

What had the economic war to do with paying the proper price for pigs?

Mr. Dillon

It meant that the pig dealer shipping pigs to England could not pay the best possible price.

Dr. Ryan

The position was that one was paying 5/- more than another.

Mr. Dillon

At some fairs the pig dealer paid 5/- more than at others.

Dr. Ryan

Does the Deputy want to persuade this House that the pig dealer was paying it out of his own pocket?

Mr. Dillon

If there was full competition there would have been a full price.

Dr. Ryan

I do not want to say that the curers are saints but neither were the pig dealers, and I am assuming that when two dealers go out to buy pigs and one of them pays 5/- more than the other that the man who pays the higher price can afford to do so and that the other man is making excess profit.

Mr. Coburn

That applies equally to all dealers.

Dr. Ryan

It does. The next question that was raised was that the Minister should take a certain amount of control over this commission and be answerable to the Dáil. I agree with Deputy McGilligan on that. I think with Deputy McGilligan—and I think Deputy Cosgrave agrees with that, too, from what he said here—that it would be a great mistake if I were subject to question and answer here about why, say, a certain man's pigs were not taken or why a certain curer was being prosecuted for a certain offence or all these other smaller matters or more routine matters that this commission has to deal with, but I do agree with Deputy McGilligan that the Dáil should get some opportunity of discussing the proceedings of this commission.

I agree with that, because I have the direct appointment of the commission, and, therefore, I should be answerable to the Dáil for anything I might do in that respect. I shall try to have an amendment prepared on the lines suggested by Deputy McGilligan, that the commission will have to give me a very full report of their proceedings and so on, which I in turn shall have to lay before the Dáil, and which the Dáil in turn will have an opportunity of discussing if they think fit.

The next question that was raised was a question with regard to the tribunal that sat for compensation for the curers that went out. The real difficulty there is that there appears to be a difference in legal interpretation, and, as a matter of fact, I could not get the thing cleared up before this Bill was drafted. I hope, however, that we may be able to get some sort of clear legal decision on exactly what that clause means in the original Act and, if we can get that in time, to put in an amendment on the Committee Stage to make the matter right.

Mr. Brennan

Take it out altogether and put in one you understand.

Dr. Ryan

That might be a solution all right. With regard to the conditions as to the quantity and price of pigs up to this, quoted by Deputy Cosgrave, these are governed by Section 140 of the Act of 1935. The first matter was the capacity of the markets for bacon. That will not arise during the war, as it is obvious that whatever bacon we may produce will be absorbed. As to the quantity of bacon which the board anticipates is required for cold storage, that is a matter that I do not think will affect the price of pigs either during the war. The stock of bacon on hands should not affect it. The supply of pigs likely to be available I do not think should affect it. So far as I can see now, the only thing in this that should affect the price of pigs is the price of feeding stuffs; and here is the difficulty that I see anyway. If we relate the price of pigs to the price of feeding stuffs just now, we might find ourselves compelled, when we come to export that bacon, to pay an export bounty on it. I think the big consideration at the moment should be, if we are negotiating with Great Britain about bacon, that we should at least get a price from Great Britain that will cover our cost of production. If we do not get that, the only remedy for it is that we must go out of production, because, surely, we cannot contemplate during the war producing food for export to Great Britain and paying an export bounty upon it. Therefore, I said last night that the price of our pigs will have to be regulated by the price of our bacon exports.

Mr. Dillon

Surely the Minister is not going to argue in this House that, because the milling ring wants to put 3/- per cwt. on bran and pollard, we have to go out of pig production in this country? Why does he not take power to take those fellows by the throat and make them sell the stuff at a reasonable price?

Dr. Ryan

I agree with the Deputy that if there is any injustice that should be dealt with. I think Deputies will agree with me that we could not at this stage, when there is a war on, make an agreement to sell bacon to England and pay a subsidy.

Mr. Dillon

That dilemma does not arise.

Dr. Ryan

Perhaps not. Therefore, we come to this point, that we get the best price we can for bacon exported, and that will depend upon the price of bacon produced in England. Our bacon will be the same as that. When we find out what the price of our bacon exported is, we fix the price of pigs on that.

Mr. Gorey

The cost of production here will admittedly be more.

Dr. Ryan

I do not know that it will be. The position at present is that the British Government is keeping feeding stuffs in Great Britain and in the North of Ireland at the pre-war figure.

Mr. Dillon

How?

Dr. Ryan

They have done that by supplying it to the maize millers at pre-war cost—they pay the difference.

Mr. Dillon

Do they?

Dr. Ryan

Yes, they pay the difference.

Mr. Gorey

We ought to be able to do the same here.

Dr. Ryan

I do not think that they are going to continue that. If they do continue it, we are going to be in a very bad position.

Mr. Dillon

That is a subsidy by the British Government for bacon in England?

Dr. Ryan

It is a subsidy. They are entitled to subsidise bacon for their own market. Another point raised, I think by Deputy McGovern, was that the quality of the bacon supplies on the market at home is not as good as it should be. It is a difficult problem to regulate this export quota. We are asked about this time of the year to try and give an estimate of the amount of bacon that we can export for every month during the coming year. We are naturally expected by the British Government to keep to that figure as closely as we can. In the past we have had to depart from that figure. We have had to write to the British Government and say: "We find we are not able to fill the quota this month", or, on occasions, we have told them that we have more bacon than we anticipated and we would like to send more. As a rule, the British Government have met us on these points, but they expect us to keep to our figures as well as we can. That means that some months the curers here have a little more bacon than they want for the home market. They are able to "hard cure" it and hold it back; they need not send it out too quickly, and the bacon is properly cured before it goes to the shops and, therefore, is very good. During some other months bacon is scarce for the home market and they shorten the period of cure in order to get it out to the customers, as the customers are calling for it. In that way, I believe, bacon went out recently after a very short period of cure, and, of course, was not as good as it might be.

Deputy Brennan talked about these carry-over provisions. They are necessary, of course. The commission take up duty on a certain date. They are not in a position to make the various orders which are necessary on the first day they take up office. The prices of pigs remain until they make a change; the amount of the levy remains until they make a change; the production period remains until they make a change; and all the other matters must remain. That section with regard to the carry-over is to allow these things to be carried on until the commission is in a position to make a change.

Deputy Gorey spoke of the special export quota. The history of that is this: When Great Britain started to regulate her bacon trade about 1933 or 1934, they told us they were not prepared to take any more dead carcases from this country. At that time a large number of dead carcases were going to some big factories in Belfast and Derry, taken in from this side of the Border. They gave the people in that trade 12 months to get out of it, reducing the quota by one-twelfth every month until it was done away with. That meant that, instead of dead carcases. there would be pigs to be disposed of in those areas. The special quota was designed to absorb those live pigs which were left, and it was distributed amongst factories in the north, and the western factories in Claremorris and Castlebar. That special quota still remains, and nothing has been done about it.

Mr. Gorey

Even though the surplus disappeared from the north and transferred itself to the south, it is maintained in the south?

Dr. Ryan

The surplus is sometimes in the north. Deputy Dillon knows that this month there was a very big surplus in Monaghan. There is sometimes a surplus in the north. But we must do something about that quota. We will either have to consolidate it or get down to one quota.

Mr. Gorey

Get down to one quota; get down to an equitable basis.

Dr. Ryan

If we get rid of the production quota——

Mr. Dillon

The necessity will not arise for that.

Dr. Ryan

If we suspend the production quota, there will not be any scramble at all.

Mr. Gorey

If that is so it meets my point.

Dr. Ryan

We should get it consolidated, at any rate. Deputy O'Reilly advocated that the commission should buy pigs and distribute them to the factories. That proposition was put up to me on various occasions, and there were strong arguments in favour of it, but, I think, on the whole, we had better not try that but let things take their course. Deputy Bennett said there was nothing in the Bill for the producer. The only thing there is for the benefit of the producer is the fixed price, which is a very important consideration. Perhaps it is not so important, now that we have a fixed price for export bacon, as it was before the war commenced. Deputy Hickey and other Deputies said that pigs from Cork should go to Cork, that pigs from Monaghan should go to Monaghan, and that pigs from Waterford should go to Waterford. As I stated last night, we hope, when bringing in certain amendments on the Committee Stage, to be in a position to abolish or to suspend production sub-quotas. If we do, it will be open to Cork factories to take Cork pigs, Monaghan to take Monaghan pigs, and so on. These quotas were based on the actual production of the factories the year before control came in.

As there were always more pigs in Cork than the Cork factories absorbed, the Limerick men went there to buy. There is no reason why, under control, the Cork factories should take all the pigs. Why not let things go on and let the Limerick men go and buy there still? If we take the sub-quotas we are still leaving it between the Limerick men and the Cork men to see who will get the pigs.

Mr. Linehan

That is evading the point. We have been penalised by having to send them away.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Cogan said a big proportion of the sows distributed by the board were unproductive. The figures are less than 1 per cent. The board kept in touch with farmers who got sows, and found that 99 per cent. of them turned out to be productive, and to be good sows. The board is quite willing, and has been willing as long as the scheme is in operation, to send out more sows. They endeavoured by advertising to bring the scheme under the notice of farmers, and it is rather disappointing that they did not avail of the scheme more than they did.

Mr. Dillon

They are beginning to avail of it better now.

Dr. Ryan

I think so.

Mr. Gorey

You must give them other facilities having robbed them by the economic war. They cannot feed pigs now; they are bankrupt.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy McMenamin asked about certain of the staffs. As far as the veterinary staffs are concerned, they still remain under the Department and have their own conditions of employment. I am sorry the Deputy is not in the House now, as he accused me of being discourteous to him four or five years ago. That was the dark spot in last night's debate. Otherwise it was very pleasant. Deputy McGilligan stated that I promised the Dáil, when I brought in new legislation, that the views expressed by the Prices Commission would be reflected in that legislation. As far as I am concerned I believe they are. I think one of the principal duties before the commission is to get the costings of the factories. The second last clause gives power to get costings and, having got those, to fix what is a fair margin for the curers. I have no idea what a fair margin would be. The curers say it is one thing and others say another thing. The commission, having got costings, and taken everything into consideration, overheads, the capital involved, and so on, should be able to fix what is a fair margin. Then, I think, they would have carried out, and I would have reflected to a great extent in legislation, the views of the Prices Commission.

I cannot guarantee what Deputy Bennett asked, that there will be adequate supplies of feeding stuffs. All I can say is that the Government will do everything possible to get feeding stuffs in. The only real guarantee farmers have is to go in for increased production themselves, as far as they can. Many Deputies asked about restoring the pig markets and the pig fairs. How could that be done? I do not see how we could take any possible steps to do it. If farmers want to bring pigs to factories in Cork or Tralee in a lorry and want to bring back feeding-stuffs, I do not think anyone would advocate stopping them doing so. It is quite possible, if the sub-allocations are done away with, that the factories will send buyers to the fairs to try to get pigs, and in that way fairs in a variety of towns may to some extent be revived. I agree with Deputy Hughes, and I think it applies not only to pig production but to all other farming activities, that however it may be now, we should hope in the next few years to put something aside to meet the aftermath when the war is over. I should like to emphasise again that in setting up the commission I was simply thinking that it might, with future experience, be able to recommend a scheme, the best possible scheme to deal with the pig situation when the war is over.

I do not think anyone said, as some Deputy opposite mentioned, that pig dealers were dishonourable or dishonest. I think the pig dealers get what they can at their business just as is the case with the curers. As I mentioned, before control one price was paid at one fair and another price at another fair. That is why control was necessary. Personally, if the removal of the production quota was to result, to some extent, in the revival of the fairs or markets, or in dealers going and buying pigs on a fair live-weight basis by hand, if you like, to send to the factories, I would not be sorry to see them getting a living out of the business. Pig dealers at this time of the year are very anxious to get licences because they can do a good business. Everyone admits that. I would like to tell Deputies that for the spring and early summer months we can never dispose of the licences. We have always more than will be accepted by dealers during these months. It is a seasonal business. Our difficulty is in having agreed with another Government to send so many live pigs or such a proportion of our exports of live pigs. That is the difficulty at this time.

Mr. Dillon

Surely it could be done by negotiation?

Dr. Ryan

We have as a matter of fact negotiations after this month for a considerable increase, comparatively speaking, in the quota. The last question I was asked was whether bacon for home consumption is inspected. It is, of course, just the same as bacon for export is inspected by the veterinary staffs. One thing we can be assured of in this country is that any bacon released from the factory is healthy and fit for consumption.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think that there is any use in our closing our eyes to a very vital point concerning this scheme. As the Minister sees, there is a kind of general desire to give this scheme a chance. The proposed chairman of this commission does not command the confidence of a very considerable number of persons. He was chairman of the Pigs and Bacon Marketing Boards, and the distrust which these boards gave rise to inevitably attaches in a considerable measure to him.

A Deputy

No.

Mr. Dillon

In some measure, it does.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy might put his question without making a speech.

Mr. Dillon

Can that gentleman's gifts not be employed in some other position and some person more universally acceptable appointed, so that confidence may be secured?

Dr. Ryan

I do not like discussing the merits of an individual here——

Mr. Dillon

Neither do I.

Dr. Ryan

But I am taking full responsibility for that appointment and I do not think that the Deputy should question it further. I have to take full responsibility for the appointment and I am quite satisfied to do so. I think that the boards were not very much to blame at all and, certainly, not the chairman. They had to work all this legislation and I do not see what they could do except carry out what they were asked to carry out by the legislature.

Mr. Dillon

I think that it would be in that gentleman's best interest to take him out of the job.

Mr. Linehan

The Minister has been hinting that he proposes to remove this home-production quota?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Linehan

When is that likely to happen? Is the Minister definitely saying that it will happen?

Dr. Ryan

Yes. Amendments will be brought in which will enable the commission to try that as an experiment. If it is successful, it will continue for all time.

Mr. Linehan

It is definitely going to be tried?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Coburn

Can the Minister hold out any hope that the pig dealers who are at the moment in a position to export live pigs will get the necessary number of licences to enable them to do so?

Dr. Ryan

We cannot give them more before the 1st December.

Mr. Coburn

When the 1st December comes, will the Minister be in a position to do so?

Dr. Ryan

We shall give them as many as we can negotiate in December.

Question put and agreed to.

Financial Resolution reported and Report agreed to.