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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 1939

Vol. 78 No. 4

Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1939—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Brennan

It would be quite easy for us on this side to express a desire to assist the Government in the crisis which has arisen, but, before we could do that, we should have to ask ourselves what confidence we had in the Government, and what right they had to our confidence. It was rather amusing to hear the Minister for Finance, speaking on the earlier stages of the Budget, referring to the fact that the speech of the Leader of the Opposition might be likened to the speech he made on the last Budget, and the one before, and the one before that, and that it was simply a question of shouting squandermania on each occasion. As a matter of fact, that was a compliment which the Minister did not realise he was paying to the Leader of the Opposition. It was a perfectly true statement. It is perfectly consistent with the position he took up ever since Fianna Fáil came in and told the House that they were going to save the country millions of pounds, and, instead of that, having millions of pounds piled on. One of the most extraordinary statements made in the whole debate was the speech of the ex-Minister for Finance, when he said that opposition to this Budget was an attack on the neutrality policy which the Government had declared, and those are the reasons we cannot have any confidence in the people who constitute the Government. They ought to be straight with the people, and with the House, and there is no use in the ex-Minister for Finance, or the Minister for Industry and Commerce, endeavouring to drag a red herring across the path in that way.

Everybody knows that it is schoolboy childishness for a Minister to say that opposition to this Budget is an attack upon neutrality, but I suppose it was simply that the Minister was so hard-pushed for some material on which to build a case for this Budget that he had to fall back on nonsense of that sort. We have, right through the administration of this Government, the feeling that there is an extravagant notion permeating their whole policy. I remember hearing a member on the Government Benches declaring, with emphasis and with enthusiasm, that they had killed the 200-acre man in this country, and defying anybody to put him back. I do not think that was anything to boast of, and we have the Minister for Finance declaring that he very much regrets that there are not more wealthy men in this country who would be able to carry the burden. That is true; it is a cause for regret; but an appreciation of that fact has come pretty late in the day to the Government.

If there is anything which would impress us in favour of this Budget, it would be that it was necessary, that the war which has come upon the world, and which so encircles us here, would put fresh burdens on the people; but, in considering that, we must remember that the people in charge of affairs to-day have broken confidence with the people and when we remember the position with regard to the flour millers, the bacon curers, the turf bricquettes, the alcohol factories, the Roscrea factory, and all the silly idiotic things the Government put the people's money into, and which went down, we can have very little confidence that if we give them more money to-day, it is going to be well spent. There is evidence—it has been produced in the House—by a commission set up by the Government themselves that certain people have overcharged the community to an enormous extent, and have done that with the protection of the Government. The figures have been set out and the amounts set out by the Prices Commission would relieve the present burden to a considerable extent, if the Government only put their hands on them. While certain people can get away with loot of that sort, the poor people must be ground down by a new tax on sugar, on tobacco and on beer, and all those other items which, bound together, will surely press very hardly upon the community.

What evidence have we that this increased expenditure is going to be put to good use? Has the Minister told us, has anybody told us, what the new activities of the Army, of the coast watchers and of the new type of marine service which we are setting up will cost? We ought to know, and the people, since they are footing the bill, are entitled to know, what effective machinery the Government propose to set up in connection with this coast watching and marine service. Personally I should be very intrigued to know what steps these coast watchers and other such people will take if they find foreign submarines in our territorial waters.

I heard a story told last week about two men who had been appointed coast watchers. Apparently the best qualification they had for the appointment was that they were strong supporters of the Government. I was told that they were put into some old ruin on the western coast. They had not even glasses to enable them to carry out their duties and the nearest Guards' Barrack was five miles away. These two gentlemen go out to watch from 9 o'clock in the morning until 5 o'clock in the evening. Between 5 o'clock in the evening and 9 o'clock in the morning, anybody and everybody who wants to do so, is welcome to come into our territorial waters and to land on our shores. Between the hours from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., these two gentlemen, paid at the public expense, were to watch apparently without the aid of glasses. They were asked what they would do if they saw something that they did not understand or that they thought was a submarine and one of them said: "We will tell the Guards." The question was asked: "How will you tell the Guards?" and the answer was: "One of us would go back to the Civic Guards' Barrack". He was then asked how he would get there, if he would walk, or cycle. The reply was: "There is no road back; we would have to walk back five or six miles". The next question asked was: "What would the Guards do?" and the reply given was: "We do not know. We go on at 9 in the morning and we finish at 5 in the evening". Is that a service to which the Minister is asking the people of the country to subscribe? If the people of this country had to subscribe by way of a Supplementary Budget to new services, they ought to be told what the services are and how they are going to affect the country.

Again we have had all this bungling in connection with the A.R.P. services. I do not think I ever heard in all my life so much bungling as there was in connection with that Department. We had an instance of it here in this House when not one Minister on the Front Bench knew who was responsible for the orders given for the black-out. Then it was sought to throw the blame on the people themselves by suggesting that they resorted to the black-out themselves because they heard about it in foreign broadcasts, notwithstanding the fact that the Guards went around in certain places and ordered the people to have a black-out. Apparently that has been finished. At least we have got the lights on again. If that is the kind of service the people of the country are going to get for this Supplementary Budget, then I think everybody has a perfect right to oppose it and ought to oppose it.

There does not appear to be very much left unsaid as far as this Bill is concerned. I just desire to add that although it does not rest with mortals to command success, at the same time mortals very often deserve success. If the Minister and his Government in the past have not succeeded in their efforts, perhaps in some instances there might be some good reasons for that, but on the whole, looking back on the whole programme of the Government, it has consisted mainly of a series of bunglings from the very beginning up to date, and it seems as if we are to have a continuation of that bungling. We have reached a position now in which the Minister says, "What else is there left to tax but sugar?" Surely, that is a sorry situation for the Minister after the Fianna Fáil Government has been seven or eight years in office. We have the unemployment position becoming more acute daily. We are now faced with a position, after seven or eight years of a policy of self-sufficiency, in which the factories established in furtherance of that policy are shown to be dependent almost entirely on raw materials from outside. If we had been really self-sufficient, the war would have given these factories an opportunity of proving themselves, but instead the whole programme went flop when war broke out.

Again we are confronted with a position in which more money is required from the people to spend on services about which we are told nothing. There is, we are told, increased expenditure on the Army, but no details of that expenditure are given. I was informed on my way up from my constituency to Dublin that in one military station between here and Roscommon 500 gallons of petrol are distributed daily for use in that station. Why should we be called upon to pay for expenditure of that kind? I do not think that the Minister or any of the speakers on the Government side have justified this Budget. They find themselves now in a bad position and they have put the country into a bad position. They are surrounded with difficulties into which their own policy has led them. We have at the moment the extraordinary spectacle in this country of a section of our farmers going on strike, a thing that never happened before. I do not want to go into the merits or the demerits of that strike now, but I do say that while you have taxation piled on the country in the way in which the Minister proposes to pile it on now, you are bound to have reactions of this sort. If it was necessary to impose taxation there were other methods which might have been tried. The Minister apparently does not think there were. The Minister took a different road. He has taken a road which is going to press very hard on the poor people of the country and, in my opinion, the case which he has made does not justify this Budget.

Níl aon áit in Éirinn a bhfuil níos lugha fáilte roimh an cháin seo ar an tsiúcra agus an tobac ná tá sa Ghaeltacht. Cinnte go leor goilleann sé ar bhochta na gcathrach agus na mbailte mór ach luigheann sé mar ualach mhillteanach ar bhochta na Gaeltachta. Creidim go ndéarfar go bhfuil siad cho cleachtuighthe le hanró agus le leathtrom nach mbeidh mochtáil aca ar an ualach úr seo atáthar a chur ortha anois. Go dearbhtha, badh doiligh saoghal na ndaoine seo a dhéanamh níos measa ná tá sé ach sin go díreach an rud atá an Rialtas a' dréim a dhéanamh. Ní hiongnadh gur beag suim na ndaoine seo san tsaoirse atá againn nuair atá an gorta ag stánadh isteach sna súile ortha. Is beag an sólás dóibh Bunreacht Náisiúnta a bheith aca no is dinnéar den ghaoith é ag bochta na Gaeltachta. Deirtear gur Rialtas do na bochta an Rialtas seo ach níl a chruthú sin againn. Mheall siad bhótaí na mbocht ar dhóigh go bhfuair siad an chumhacht atá aca ach is fírbheagán a nidheas siad don duine bhocht anois. Má bheir siad dó le láimh amháin baineann siad uaidh leis an láimh eile. Caidé is brí cupla scilling scalta den "bureau" no den "dole" do fhear na muirighne má baintear de ar ais é le cáin trom mar seo? Ar dheireadh thiar thall, tá an fear sin níos boichte ná bhí sé ariamh.

Tá a spiorad briste agus níl croidhe no misneach ann a cheann a thógáil. Tá iongantas mór ar mhuintir na tíre go léir fan cháin seo a cuireadh ar an tsiúcra agus an tobac. Nach raibh go leor neathannaí eile ag an Aire le cánadh nach luighfeadh cho trom ar bhochta na tíre. Badh cheart an cháin seo a chur ar na pioctúirí reatha agus gnaithe pléisiúir má bhí an oiread sin gádh le hairgead a thógáil. Smuainigh ar an dochar a dhéanfas sé do shlainte aosa óig na Gaeltachta bheith ar ghann-chuid siúcra. Ní bheidh siad in innibh a cheannacht mar nach bhfuil saothrú ar bith ag n-a mbunadh. Níl bó no caora aca le tabhairt' un aonaigh agus dá mbeadh níl an luach badh chóir ortha anois. Tá gnaithe na muc agus na n-uibheach bun os cionn ag rialacha an Rialtais. Agus tá gach rud atá le ceannacht ag na daoine bochta seo as barr amach le daoirse. Tá cáin trom as miosúr ar an sógh amháin a bhí ag seandaoine na Gaeltachta—an píopa tobac. Caithfe siad stad de ar fad anois de thairbhe na cánach seo agus is iomaidh dúidín ag dul faoi chré ar na laethibh seo agus an file ag caoineadh os cionn a bhfeart:—

"Mo bheannacht ort, a chara fhíor, Céad beannacht ar do chionn,

'Nois scarthar thú 's mé go síor, Mo phíopa goirid donn."

Má tá sé cho riachtanach an t-airgead so thógáil agus go bhfuil an sparán folamh againn, tá mórán den chaipis ar an Rialtas iad fhéin. Níl amhras nárbh é an cogadh gan chéill a thóg siad leis an tSasanach a d'fhág an tír lom tarnocht anois gan mhaoin ná stoc ná teacht aniar leis an droch-uair agus an cruaidh-chor seo a chur tharainn anois. Ní dhéarfa mé níos mó fa sin. Tá an dochar déanta agus béidh sé doiligh an tír a shábháil no tá sí anois mar long gan stiúir ag tarraingt ar na carraigeacha.

Má b'fhíor dúinn tá cupla mí ó shoin bhímíd le bheith neodrach san chogadh seo agus, mar sin de, cad chuige a gcaithfimíd díol cho trom as a bheith neodrach. D'réir mar chímíd, shaoilfeadh duine ar bith go bhfuilmíd istigh i lár na bruighne le sluaighte saighdiuirí agus cabhlach mór de shoithigh cogaidh. Níl gnaithe leo i dtír bheag lag mar tá againne agus ar aon chaoi ní bhéadh siad ach ag tarraingt chogaidh orrainn. Má tá tíortha móra na hEorpa in adharcaí le chéile, bíodh aca. Bíodh a n-aghaidh féin ar a chéile agus a gcúl linn.

Mar dubhairt mé ar dtús, tá mé go láidir i n-aghaidh na cánach seo agus labhraim ar shon mhuintir na Gaeltachta—ar líne deireannach den fhírthreibh a chosain agus a chongbhuigh beó teanga agus nósaí ar sinnsir dúinn in aindeoin cruaidh-smacht Gall. Deirim nach bhfuil caoi aca an cháin seo a dhíol agus ní ceart agus ní cóir do Rialtas Gaedheal an t-ualach seo a chur ortha.

I want to enter a strong protest against the increase in the tax on sugar and beer and on the other commodities referred to in this Supple mentary Budget. This Fianna Fáil Government has been in power during the last seven years and has, I understand, spent about £210,000,000 of the people's money during that period. If the Government that had been in power in 1931-1932 had been continued in power, this country would have been saved at least £60,000,000. We all know that the conditions in the country were never as bad as they are to-day, and, in my opinion, if the Minister wanted to save money he could have done so by reducing certain services. In that way he could have got the money he required instead of taxing the sugar, beer and other commodities of the poor people of the country. Let me indicate some of the services on which I think he could save money instead of taxing the commodities of the poor. The upkeep of the two Houses of the Oireachtas costs at the present time £125,070. In 1931-1932, their upkeep cost £111,000, although at that time we had, I think, about 15 more members in this House than we have to-day. He could save on that service at least £15,000. In my opinion we are getting no greater service now than we got in 1931-1932. That is a service that could easily be cut down. The cost of the Taoiseach's Department has been increased by £3,000 since 1931. There is no reason why that increase should have taken place, and there could at least be that amount saved on that Vote. The Department of the Minister for Finance in 1931 cost £57,000. The figure is now £75,000. Surely at least £15,000 could be taken off there. No one, I think, would contend that the services in this country are any better now than they were in 1931, or that it should cost more to run them.

The Office of the Revenue Commissioners in 1931 cost £644,000. The cost to-day is £885,000. There could be a cut there of £250,000. Why should that Department cost more to-day than it did in 1931, especially in view of the fact that not only is the revenue of the country going down but the population is also decreasing? In view of the fact that the wealth of the country shows a decrease, I think there could be at least a saving of £250,000 there. That is one direction in which the Minister might look for savings. The Office of Public Works, which cost £90,000 in 1931, is to-day costing £123,000. If there was a saving of £40,000 made in the case of that Department, I think it would be very desirable because, in my opinion, the Office of Public Works was being run in a far more efficient manner in 1931, when it was costing the country nearly £40,000 a year less than it is being run to-day. Public Works and Buildings in 1931 were costing £609,000. The figure to-day is £1,370,000. The Minister could easily cut off £80,000 on that Vote, especially in view of the fact that the country is getting poorer in all directions.

The Civil Service Commission is costing £25,000. The cost in 1931 was £12,000. What are they doing for this £25,000? Where is the money being spent? That is a service that, I think, was being run far more efficiently on £12,000 in 1931 than it is to-day. There could be a saving of £10,000 there. Secret Service is costing the country to-day £20,000. In 1931, the cost was £2,000. What secret service have we in the country at the present time? Who is getting that money, and what are they doing? The management of Government stocks is costing to-day £15,000. In 1931, that service cost £10,000. There is room for a saving of £5,000 there. The cost of the Department of the Minister for Justice in 1931 was £36,000. Now it is £43,000. What extra work is being done in that Department to justify that large increase? I do not think there is any more work being done there now than there was in 1931. Probably some of the increase is required to pay supporters of Fianna Fáil who have succeeded in getting soft jobs in that office.

The Deputy possibly does not realise that he is by implication questioning the integrity of the Civil Service Commission in regard to recruitment of the Civil Service.

There are just a few other services that I propose to refer to. The cost of the Gárda Síochána in 1931 was £1,599,000. To-day it is costing £1,888,000. I think there could be a saving of £250,000 on that Vote. I understand that a short time ago the strength of the Gárda Síochána was increased by one-fifth. What was the necessity for that? Has the country got more lawless under a Fianna Fáil administration than it was under the last Government? I do not think so. I do not see any evidence of lawlessness in my county, in my constituency or in the country generally, so far as I can gather from reading the newspapers. In 1931 the Department of Local Government and Public Health was costing the country £527,389. The cost to-day is £1,349,000. There could be a saving of at least £800,000 on that Department. If these savings were made there would be no need for bringing forward this Supplementary Budget.

The Department of the Minister for Agriculture should, in my opinion, be run as cheaply now as it was in 1931. We all know that throughout the country a great deal of fault is found with the way in which this Department is being run. We all know that even at the present time there is a strike of farmers all over the country. That strike could have been averted if there had been any efficiency in the Department of Agriculture and anybody there to look after the interests of the farmers.

In 1931 the Department of Lands cost £517,027. Now, it is costing £1,792,028 to run it. I suggest that that Vote could be cut down by at least £750,000. Then, as far as the work done by the Land Commission is concerned, I want to say that the Minister should see that that Commission does its work. It is costing the country a huge sum of money. Yet, all one could see for it is a horde of inspectors going all over the country in their motor cars wasting petrol and apparently doing nothing. The Department of External Affairs was costing £55,000 in 1931. Now, it is costing £90,000. That Vote could really be cut down by £40,000. In 1931 the Army cost £1,173,794. Now, it is costing £3,252,199. What return are we getting for that money? What is the Army doing? Where are they? I suggest that that Vote could be cut down by £2,000,000 and yet leave us with sufficient of an Army to look after the interests of the people and give them the protection they need. Indeed there is no necessity for the Army. The Gárda Síochána could do all that is required in the way of protecting the people, and there is no necessity for the double cost of the Army. Then there are the export subsidies costing £606,000 in the present Vote. There was no item down for that in 1931. That Vote could be reduced by £500,000. We all know that the country is overtaxed.

I will now read an extract from a letter published in the Irish Independent of some days ago—it appeared on the 18th November under the title “Will We Waken Up?” The letter sets out Fianna Fáil election promises and performances as follows:—“(1) Over-taxation would be reduced by £2,000,000 a year.” That was the Fianna Fáil promise before the General Election of 1932. Here is the performance: “They have increased it by £8,000,000.” That is £10,000,000 altogether away from the promise. “(2) The Army was not wanted. (They have increased it by 75 per cent.). (3) As a peaceful country we had too many police. (They have increased the Gárda by 20 per cent.). (4) There would be so much work that we would have to send for all our relatives from overseas to cope with it. (We have over 100,000 unemployed and no outlet for our boys and girls leaving school). (5) They would reduce the number of Government officials. (They have increased them by 33 per cent.). (6) Our university students were urged to take out their degrees and learn Irish, the jobs were waiting for them. (Yet we import foreigners for all the good jobs and leave the £2 and £3 jobs for our students to scramble for). (7) The former Ministers were overpaid, the new Ministers would do the job for less money. (Yet they waited until they were firmly in the saddle, then voted bigger salaries for themselves——”

The Deputy is criticising legislation.

Very well, I will not proceed in that way further. "(8) They said, morally, we do not owe England the land annuities, so man the trenches, wear hair shirts, tighten your belts, we won't pay. Result:—Five years' trade war, we lose between £30,000,000 and £40,000,000. (9) They were to establish new markets all over the world and do without England. Result:— Wherever new markets were found—Germany, Spain, Belgium—they sold us £3 worth for every £1 they took. We then paid £10,000,000 to England to get back her markets. (10) During this trade war our farmers were told to stop feeding calves, save the feeding, kill the calves and we will give you 10/- for each skin"——

The Deputy should get away from the history of the economic war, so-called. We heard it debated for years.

It is not nice reading.

It is not relevant reading, and that is what concerns the Chair.

——"but if they had fed their calves and sold them to the enemy—England—they would have got at least £8,000,000 in the period for stores and fat cattle...(13) "we were promised that pensions granted by the former Government would be revised. The new Government gave more pensions to those that didn't earn them; but they gave pensions from 1/8 a week up to those men who fought and bled for the country——

If the Deputy wishes to quote from some anonymous letter to the Press, he should select what is relevant and omit criticism of legislation.

Well, Sir, we all know that Fianna Fáil has been in power for the last seven years. We all know, also, Sir, that in 1931 the Estimates totalled £20,925,911. In 1939 the total is £30,248,897. What has the Government done with all that money? There is there a sum of £10,000,000 more than what it cost to run the country seven or eight years ago. If we add up all the increases in the Estimates since 1932 it will be found that the entire lot is between £60,000,000 and £70,000,000. That is what the Fianna Fáil Government has already spent in excess of what the former Government was spending. Now, they come before this House and ask for powers to further increase taxation on the Irish people. I understand that the Government are about issuing a new loan for between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000 in the near future. I do not know where they are going to get the money, but at all events we would like to know from the Minister on what is this new loan to be spent? There are reports in the Press that they are about to buy quite a number of torpedo boats from England. These are really only scrap as far as the British are concerned. If our Government wanted to get armaments of that description, why not set to work and build boats themselves? That would relieve unemployment to some extent —that is to say, if the boats are needed at all, but I do not believe that we need boats. I am aware that boats are being built in Athlone. If the Government want boats for the purpose stated in recent reports why not have them built in this country instead of importing them? The only way in which Fianna Fáil can bring about prosperity in this country is by announcing a general election and let the people of this country rule the country.

Tar éis an méid atá ráite ag Mícheál Ó MacPháidín níor fhága sé mórán agam-sa le rádh mar tá mé ar an intinn chéanna leis. Deirtear gur minic a bhain duine slat a bhuailfeadh é féin. Ní raibh sé sin cho fíor ariamh is tá sé o tháinig Fianna Fáil isteach, mar siad na daoine a bhain an tslat a chuir isteach iad. Tá siad ag íoc air anois. Mheall Fianna Fáil daoine na tíre seo le cáth agus le bréaga, ach déarfainn go bhfuil an saol sin caithte agus go gcaithfear an coirce a thabhairt do na daoine níos mó. Meallann an fear bréagach an fear sanntach. Nach iomdha fear sanntach sa tír seo. Nach sainnt a chuir na daoine seo i bhfeidhm. Bhí dhá chuid den tír seo cho sanntach is gur cheap siad nuair a thiocfadh siad isteach go mbeidís uilig ina bhfir mhóra is gan tada le déanamh aca. Ach ní mar sin atá, ach na boicht níos boichte go mór ná mar bhí siad.

Nuair a bhí an tAire ag tabhairt isteach an Bhille seo dubhairt sé go mbuailfeadh sé gach duine. Ach shíl mé go dtuitfeadh an driull ar an dreall aige nuair a bhí sé ag caint ar na fir mhóra. Cuid aca, adeir sé, ní bheadh coróin as an bpunt aca den méid bantáiste dhéanas siad. Ach céard faoi na daoine bochta nach bhuil coróin ná leithphingin aca? Céard a dhéanfas siad? Ar a son sin atá mise ag caint. Caithfe siad cúig phinge an punt a íoc ar an siúcra. Agus nach iad na daoine bochta is mó atá ag caitheamh an tsiúcra—go leor leor aca nach bhfuil mórán bainne aca go mórmór an t-am seo den bhliain. Ach an té atá thuas óltar deoch air agus an té atá thíos buailtear cos air. Siad an boicht a fuair an chéad iarraidh—sa tír sin againne ar chaoi ar bith.

Tá mé ag ceapadh gurb é Roger Casement a chuir cumann ar bun le haghaidh lón scoile a thabhairt do na gasúir scoile. Lean an Rialtas suas é seo. Ach nuair a cuireadh an cháin seo ar bun, an chéad rud a rinne siad an cócó a bhaint de na gasúir scoile mar gheall ar an airgead a cuireadh ar an siúcra agus ar arán. Ceapadh go robálfaí an tír dá gcoinnightí é seo ar bun. Ach cén tsuim atá aca ionta? Nach iarraidh eile ar na Gaedhilgeoirí agus ar na boicht é? Sin iad na Gaedhilgeoirí agus na boicht a bhfuil an oiread sin suime ionta más fíor! Ach bíonn an chomhartha le n-a chois.

Faoi'n tobac, tá sé cho daor anois agus b'éidir nach mbeidh na daoine i ndon a cheannach—go mórmór na sean-daoine; agus tar éis a lá cruaidh oibre nach é an méid sógha agus suaimhnis a bhí aca é. Marach an tobac is deacair a rádh an mbeadh a leath oiread Gaedhilge scríobhtha is tá. Tá cuimhne mhaith agam nuair a tháinig an Piarsach an chéad uair go Conamara, gurb é an tobac a tharraing go leor de na scéalta as na daoine. Nuair a bhíodh sé thuas tigh Sheáin Uí Bhriain chruinníodh leath an bhaile isteach ag innseacht scéalta agus ag caitheamh an tobac. Ach tá faitíos orm go bhfuil an saol sin caithte, go bhfuil go leor againn romhór le n-a leitheide sin a dhéanamh anois.

An té atá saor sa Teach seo caitheadh sé cloch. Sa Dáil seo cúig nó sé míosa a shoin d'árduigh muid ar gcuid páighe féin £2 10s. sa tseachtain. Roimhe sin bhí £7 sa tseachtain againn agus ár gcostas bóthair íoctha o d'fhágamuid an baile go dtáinig muid ar ais. Ach ní raibh muidne i ndon maireachtáil ar £7 más fíor gur árduigheamar £2 10s. eile é. Ach má iarrann fear bocht atá ag briseadh na gcloch ar thaobh an bhóthair no a leitheide nach bhfuil ag fáil ach o £1 go dtí 27/- sa tseachtain cupla scilling árdú ina pháigh beidh bualadh bos ann agus béiceadhach nach féidir a thabhairt dó, go mbeadh an tír robáilte. Ach an raibh mórán den bhualadh bos ná den bhéiceadhach ann nuair a d'árduigh muidne ar gcuid páighe féin.

It is very difficult to deal satisfactorily with a question of this sort without going generally into the whole national economy. Anybody who listened to the debates must have noticed that those who were speaking from the opposite benches had at the backs of their minds, as an alternative to the policy which we are pursuing, a free-trade policy, modified perhaps a little, but fundamentally and essentially a free-trade policy. The policy was, as it was put: "Buy wherever you can; no matter how it affects you at home, buy wherever you can in the cheapest market. Sell, if you can sell, if you are permitted to sell, in the dearest market. Let there be no State interference with the individual. Let the law of the jungle prevail both within the State, concerning the units within the State, the individuals of the State, and between one State and another." Now, that is an old cry here in this country, and the battle between those who hold that view and those who hold the view which we hold has been fought out over a long number of years. Those who hold for free trade built up an abstract theory which would work perhaps, with certain obvious consequences, in a world very different from the world we are in, with a political condition very different from the political condition of this world at the present time.

The policy is a policy of laissez faire, unrestrained competition, the weak to go to the wall, and only those who are fit to survive in that jungle conflict to survive. We have at all times opposed that type of policy. We have opposed it because we believe that it is essentially an unjust policy. On the basis of justice, we have opposed it as a policy, because we believe that the weak have a right to exist and live, weak individuals within the nation as well as weak States within the world. The gentlemen who stand for that policy in fullness would wipe out all national barriers, because it could not work successfully if those national barriers were not wiped out. They want a cosmopolitanism which is not accepted by the majority of people in any country in the world to day. They want a state of affairs in which, say, as a French economist has put it, a modern Greece would have to disappear from the world because its land was not sufficiently rich to enable it to exist in the conditions of fierce competition upon which free trade is fundamentally based.

Is the Taoiseach describing the policy of the Opposition as a jungle policy?

As I have said, we have had this fought out. It has been fought out in this country for the last 20 years.

Might I ask the Taoiseach——

The Deputy need not ask the Taoiseach anything at the moment.

Is the Taoiseach describing our policy as a jungle policy?

I intend making the speech that I proposed to make. If the Deputy has any questions to ask he can do it at the end.

The British policy.

I say the free-trade policy is a policy which we do not stand for. It has been fought out in this country over a number of years. We saw it in operation, in so far as this country was concerned, in the 19th century, during the greater part of the 19th century, down to the beginning of the 20th century, and our people revolted against it, and a national policy was set up, and our people deliberately decided to seek not merely political freedom, but also economic freedom, and in order to get their economic freedom they based their efforts mainly on a policy of protection, because that was the only economic policy that would enable them to have any measure of real freedom.

This has been fought out by the Irish people and they have given their answer unhesitatingly and with a definiteness which it is not possible to misrepresent. They saw the working out of the free trade policy and they made up their minds that they were going to get rid of it. They saw it working out in the depopulation of the country. It affected our country in this way, that it reduced our population from 8,250,000 to 4,250,000 over a period of 80 or 90 years. They saw it continuing and they saw that if this nation was to survive we would have to have protection for the industries and the people; otherwise, the end was obvious, that we would have, in competition with other countries, to get larger and larger units, more and more machinery, carrying less and less people upon the land. That was the inevitable end—we were going to be a large grass farm beside Britain, a large industrial country.

It was to save the country from that fate that the other policy was adopted by the people. We have pursued that policy consistently and if you want to measure the results to-day, you will have to take the two sides of the account. You can take the policy of the previous Administration as shown in their activities; take its advantages, whatever advantages free trade would give; take its disadvantages, and get the net result. Then compare that net result with a similar balance taken in relation to the economic policy for which we stand. Take its advantages and its disadvantages and, when you get the difference, make a comparison with what has been done by the previous Administration.

It is idle to be arguing here, with Deputies saying that if they were allowed to get in such and such a commodity our production costs would be less. We are quite prepared to have a complete analysis made and to judge the policy for which we stand to-day and for which we stood when we came into office. Judge that policy in its results with what the opposite policy would have given us. So far as the last eight years are concerned, you have the actual working out of our policy. You have not the working out, for those eight years, of the other policy, because it was not allowed to work—the people did not want it. You can go back over the previous eight years and see the working out of the other policy, or you can go back two or three generations and see the working out of the other policy, and I ask you to compare them.

When we came into office we told the people definitely that we were going to try to build up industries here which would give employment to people who otherwise would be unemployed. We said: "We are going to protect industry, the agricultural industry as well as the manufacturing industry." We pointed out to the people what the position was at the time. When we came into office there was some £17,500,000 worth of imports, foodstuffs and live animals. Those imports included things which were being produced on our own farms every day, things for which we found it extremely difficult to get a profitable foreign market.

When we came into office we had reached a period of rapid decline in relation to agriculture and agricultural prices. We saw that the foreign markets presented a difficulty, yet here quite obviously was a home market that could be preserved for our farmers. We deliberately set out to try to get that market. There was no reason why bacon should come in here, there was no reason why other commodities like cheese and products of that sort should come in here. We decided that we would make that market available for our own farmers, and we did it, and you will see, if you compare the figures for the articles we imported when we came into office with the figures available to-day, that we have given a protected market worth £6,000,000 odd to our farmers, and that could not be obtained for them except through the policy of protection. That £6,000,000 represents a safe market, a market that cannot be taken away from them by unfair competition or by dumping from outside.

We have gone over the severe period of the economic depression, but it is important that we should remember what the conditions were at that time. It is not always remembered that there was a bigger drop in prices for the two years before we came into office, from 1929 to 1931, than there was here from 1931 to the lowest point reached, even when the economic war, as it was called, was in progress and British tariffs were being operated against our goods. I want you to remember that. I want you to remember also that at the time we came into office our dairying industry was practically destroyed on account of the reduction that had taken place in the prices in those earlier years. One of our first acts when we came in was to protect that industry. We set up a system of stabilisation and control, the result of which was—I will give you a picture of it—that with the subsidies that were given at one period the price in the English market of butter was only 70/- a cwt.—allowing for the tariffs the net price of Irish butter would have been only 50/—while there was given to the creameries, to the Irish farmers, at that time, a price somewhat over 104/-. When we came into office we found that the dairying industry was being destroyed and we had to come to its assistance by means of the Act of 1933. As a result of the operation of that Act the industry was saved. Although it could not be said that the prices were particularly remunerative, still the industry was saved and the farmer, during the time of the lowest depression, in the period I have mentioned, actually got £1,327,000 more as a result of that Act and that assistance which was given to him than he would have got in the free open British market.

Looking at our imports, there was one big item which must strike anybody and that item is imported wheat. We had only 21,000 acres of land under wheat. We want over 700,000 in order to get our requirements. We have now about one-third of our requirements. About 258,000 acres, I think, were grown last year. But at that time we were only growing a mere fraction of our requirements of that essential foodstuff, wheat—a fraction that it is almost not worth writing down, it was comparatively so small. We were sending very considerable sums of money abroad purchasing wheat. It was not merely wheat. I will come later to our manufacturing industries, and I will show that even flour was not being milled here. We said that the land of Ireland should be able to grow wheat. They grow it in Denmark. We said that the land that is untilled can be used to produce that essential commodity and make it available to our people and give to the farmer a secure market for it—something that cannot be taken away from him by action from outside—and give him the value for it in cash, as a cash crop.

The same was true of sugar. We were importing considerable quantities of sugar. We said that a root crop such as beet would be a valuable addition to our general farming economy and, whereas there was only a small portion of our needs grown when we came into office, we set out with the intention of providing the whole of our requirements.

When people talk of the neglect of the agricultural industry during that period—as they have talked and as Deputies have suggested during this debate—I want to give a few figures to show what the policy for which we stand has meant to the farmers during these years. I have mentioned butter. The value of the control of butter and the subsidisation and help which was given to the dairy industry in that regard during the years 1932 to 1938 has meant £5,000,000 to the farmers. Our policy in regard to wheat has meant that he has a cash crop, the value of which over the years has been over £9.8 millions. Beet has given him a cash crop of over £6.2 millions during the period. That, in addition to the reserved market of £6.1 millions, gives some sort of picture of what our policy of general protection, and particularly the protection of the agricultural industry, has meant to the farmer for that time.

They must be very prosperous to-day.

They were preserved during a period in which the farming industry in other countries had been almost totally destroyed. If we take the figures from 1929 to 1931 and see what would have happened if they had continued in the same——

What did the economic war cost the farmers? I want to know that.

I will tell you.

You do not know and you do not care.

I will tell you what the economic war did. We were fighting for the preservation of £5,000,000 a year of Irish money to Ireland— £5,000,000, that was going to continue to be paid long beyond the time of this generation.

That you said was not due.

We fought for the maintenance of that £5,000,000, and we did secure that for the Irish people.

And you said it was not due.

I am not in the habit of interrupting. I came in here as Head of the Government to answer a debate, and I expect at least that Deputies will cease a constant fire of interruption whilst I am speaking. I am giving the facts and figures. They can speak for themselves, and if anybody has any fault to find with them, let him come along and argue about them, but not by interruption of that type. The fight was a fight to retain £5,000,000 a year of Irish money— £5,000,000, as I have said, that was going to be paid long after this generation had passed away. It was worth fighting for. It was not due.

You said it was not due.

If the Deputy interrupts again, the Chair will be constrained to take action.

I want to have an understanding.

The understanding the Deputy wants is that he may not interrupt. I trust he understands that.

As I have said, £5,000,000 was a considerable sum to this community. It represented at the time more than all our fat cattle were worth. To pay it we would have to hand over all our fat cattle at the time we came into office and much more than the fat cattle to-day will fetch. Our butter and bacon would be worth only £3,000,000 or £4,000,000, either then or now, and you could produce all your bacon and hand it over, and all your butter with it, and you would not get £5,000,000.

We asked the Irish people to stand by their rights and to resist that imposition—because it was an imposition. They had to resist it for three or four years. I want you to remember that if that war had not been fought, every single year £5,000,000 would have to be paid, the whole of our fat cattle would have to be handed over in every one of those three or four years and, at the end of it, you would have to continue, this year, next year and for the next 20, 30 or 40 years, to pay £5,000,000 a year. The capital value of the sums we were paying at the time was estimated at £100,000,000. About £80,000,000 of it was reckoned as being the present value of the payments in respect of land annuities, and the rest of it consisted of payments on other heads. There was a settlement of two years' purchase of the sum due to be paid. The sum that would have been paid in two years, namely, £10,000,000, was used as the basis of settlement for that sum of £100,000,000 and, henceforth, this nation is free from that sum and the payment of £5,000,000 a year. That is what you have got by the fight: the saving of that £5,000,000 a year for year after year, the preservation, for the benefit of the community, of £5,000,000—more than all your fat cattle, a great deal more than your butter and your bacon would produce to you every year.

As we are talking about the farming industry and what has been done for it during our period of office, I want to point out that £2,000,000 of that sum was made available for the farming community. That sum which was due to the central Exchequer from the farming community, on the head of land annuities, was used for general purposes but £2,000,000 of it was sent back directly and immediately to the farming industry. If you take the results of the 1933 Act, with the cutting down of annuities to one half, the remission and funding of arrears, the total sum up to date by which the farming community has benefited during that period is £13,250,000.

Again, it is no harm, when we are talking of our farming economics, to refer to what the community as a whole, through the Exchequer, has been doing as far as the agricultural community is concerned. It is worth noting that the agricultural grant which, during the eight years before we came into office had totalled only £9,735,000 during the last eight years, has amounted to £15,268,000; that is, there has been a further additional sum of over £5,500,000 given to the farming industry.

I want, therefore, to repeat these sums in order that those who talk of the injury that they say we have done to the agricultural community may remember them. On butter they have got £5,000,000; on wheat it has meant a cash price of £9.8 million; on beet, £6.2 million; on annuities, £13.2 million; the agricultural grant has meant £5.5 million; and that, with an additional reserved market of £6.1 million, gives some sort of picture of the other side of the account anyhow. Together with that the community as a whole, of which the farmers are perhaps the principal portion, has been relieved by the settlement which was made at the end of the economic struggle of an annual payment of some £5,000,000 for a considerable number of years.

As I have said, we came into office at a time when the depression in agriculture was world-wide. Every agricultural country was practically on the verge of bankruptcy. We took over the policy of protection and we believe that were it not for that policy of protection the farming industry would have been destroyed during that period. We are now facing a different period. I have always admitted that during that particular period the part of our community which was most in need, which was most deserving of help, and, consequently, did get help, was the farming community. But we have a new position in which the conditions are going to improve and have improved so far as the farming community is concerned. We want to take full advantage of any improvement and any opportunities for improvement that present themselves. We are anxious to see that everything that can be done, consistent with the good of the community as a whole, will be done to help.

But it was not in agriculture alone that we had this desperate position. Our other industries were being wiped out. I mentioned the milling industry. I have said that we were not merely not growing our own wheat, but not milling the flour. We were practically allowing others to do it for us instead of doing it ourselves. We were milling only a little over half of our requirements in flour. We set out to protect that industry and to-day the fact is that we are in a position in which we can produce practically the whole of our requirements.

I cannot stand this any longer—I will leave.

I am glad it is striking home. If it is said that our milling is not being done in the best possible way, then it is within our power in this Parliament and in this community to see that the production which is capable of meeting our needs is done in the best interests of the community as a whole.

When are you going to do it?

I am telling you that we have the power in this House to do it.

Mr. Morrissey

We are paying £1 a sack more for it than in the North.

The Deputy should wait and allow me to make the points I want to make. At this time, when it is important that a foodstuff such as flour should be capable of being produced here, we have the producing power, and if our farmers give us the raw material, the wheat, we can produce all we want. If, as Deputy Dillon or somebody else suggested, the only way in which we can get the thing properly done is by nationalising the industry, and if that can be proved to be the best way, there is nothing to prevent us from nationalising it, if we want to do it. It is within our control. We would be in a very different position if it were coming in from outside when we might not get any flour:

I spoke about sugar. Deputy Dillon when speaking said: "I will tell you how you can reduce the bill; you can reduce the bill by getting rid of wheat and beet, and probably peat." There again we have to look at the two sides of the account. It is true we are producing sugar at a price which is higher than the price at which it could be bought if it could be brought in here at the present time, and considerably higher, no doubt, than the price at which it could be bought when sugar was being dumped on the market from other countries. At any rate, let us look at the other side of the account. For the year 1938-9, the acreage, I think, was about 48.500. There were 24,500 farmers sharing in the benefits of that cash crop; there were 2,727 people employed during the season; the amount paid to the growers was £924,000; salaries and wages amounted to £202,000; the transport of beet by the railways and otherwise amounted to £127,000; there was £16,000 spent on Irish coal, £5,000 on lime, and £49,000 on sacks and miscellaneous items. That industry benefits not merely the farmers but the workers; those who are engaged immediately in the factories, those who are engaged in making the sacks, and those who are engaged in transport, etc. So that you cannot, in talking about an industry of that sort, waive it aside and say: "Yes, but look at what the cost is to the Irish consumer more than he would have to pay if we got it in from outside."

Then, as I have said, we considered our manufacturing industries. The most important manufacturing industries were those ancillary to farming; to turn our own raw products into consumable goods for the community. We went on to consider our manufacturing industries, and looked at the import lists, and took the principal items on it, items of apparel for example. Having dealt with the items like sugar, flour-milling, and others that were immediately ancillary to agriculture, we took those other manufacturing industries which supply our most essential needs and which were the biggest items on the import lists. We went through them, and the result is apparent.

Mr. Morrissey

With 120,000 unemployed.

If the 78,000 additional people in these industries were not employed, would they not be added to the list?

And the 90,000 emigrants.

What about the 400,000 emigrants when the Deputies opposite were in office? We did not say that we were going to create a new heaven and earth.

Mr. Morrissey

You did indeed.

A new technique in debate may not be introduced. A Minister must be allowed to speak without interruption.

What we did was, we went through these items in advance, and the marvellous thing was the accuracy with which we foretold some of the numbers that were going to be taken into employment in some of these industries. The total increase to-day in industries insured under the National Health Insurance Acts is some 74,000, of whom 48,000 are in the protected industries. There are about 24,000 employed in new factories. Throughout the country you will find that there were, even at the time of the last election, some 900 new factories—not to bring in a more up-to-date figure—and workshops established. There are some 100 new industries and the figures of our industrial output have increased from £18,000,000 to £24,000,000. These are proof positive that the policy of protection did result in increasing our ability to produce at home the things we need for ourselves. If we want to compare another policy with the policy we are pursuing, let us see the two sides of the account. I am not going to pretend for a moment—it would be ridiculous to do so—that these things were done without cost. They cost a good deal but, just as in the case of the economic war, we say the result was worth it, because it has saved £5,000,000 a year for the future, £5,000,000 that would have to be paid.

I say, taking it as a whole, the cost of protection for our agricultural and manufacturing industries is worth while. I am not going to pretend that the cost has been negligible or that we got all that for nothing. We did not. What we have to ask ourselves as a community is: whether the thing we got is worth what we paid for it. We hold that the cost to the community— and there has been cost—to develop our industries in that particular way, has been worth while, and that it has been productive. We believe that, to the extent that we mean to continue it, and if the Irish people want to change to a policy of free trade or to any other policy, they will have to get people who believe in that to do it. We believe in our policy, and the more we take the country as a whole, the more we look forward to a national policy of trying to be reasonably self-sufficient, because that is the basis and is good national policy.

The other side of that policy was the social side. We saw a country that very badly needed houses. We said that if we left the question alone, without State help and State stimulation of one kind or another, we were not going to have houses built. We said that after the food that farmers will grow, and clothing that our manufacturing industries will look after, the next thing for human life and human beings was the provision of shelter and proper housing conditions. We set about dealing with housing conditions. Certainly, we have had to pay for that. But what have we got? When the question is asked whether what we have got is worth the price paid for it, the answer is that we have close on 100,000 houses now, over 75 per cent. of them new, and the rest have been reconstructed one way or another. These 100,000 houses are well worth the amount we have had to pay for them. As far as the social side is concerned, we have put a considerable burden on the taxpayer in providing these things, but, as has been stated many a time here, very few people on the Opposition Benches, when there is a project here for improving social services or housing, will stand up and say: "No, that is going to cost more than we can pay. We prefer to keep the money in our pockets and not pay for them." No, the attitude of the Opposition is always: "Give us more and more services and let us cut down the cost." Certainly, if it could be done, but it is not possible to do it.

It is not possible to increase services and at the same time cut down costs. That is what the Opposition are looking for. I admit that there can be waste, and wherever there is evidence of waste, in the sense of bad administration which makes for it, it is certainly the business of the Opposition to point it out, and it is the business of the Government to get after such waste and to eliminate it, if it is possible to do so. But if you want services in general, you will have to pay for them. You will have to pay if you want to increase old-age pensions or to bring in new classes. You will have to pay the amount of the pensions, and you may have to pay the extra administrative cost of the officials that may be required to look after them. If you want unemployment assistance, the State will have to meet the amount that is given to the individuals, and it will also have to meet the administration cost of inspectors and others necessary in the Departments. But by all means let us see that every penny spent is spent correctly; is spent economically and spent without waste. If that is the complaint made from the Opposition Benches, I am quite willing to meet them to any extent, and to correct that if it can be corrected. It is our business to try to see that administration, as such, is carried out as efficiently as it can be carried out, and at the least possible cost.

You cannot get these things done without cost. In every individual scheme, apart from the money required immediately, and from the actual sum for those intended to benefit, there will be also additional cost by way of administration. That is inevitable. When you look at the extra sums that have gone out in taxation, from the time that our predecessors were in office and ask how these sums are made up, it will be found that the greater part is made up, if you take in the administration costs which are essential, of sums that are distributed to those intended to benefit by these schemes, the widows, the unemployed and, in various other ways, such as housing grants plus the administrative costs. Do you want these schemes or do you not? Do you want to have housing schemes continued? If you do, and if you cannot get the cost reduced, the State will have to help to bear the cost. You will have to choose which you want, whether new houses or savings. It is ridiculous to come along and expect us to carry on services—very often improved and increased services—and at the same time to cut down the cost. That cannot be done. Rather than that we have chosen a way of improving social services, building houses, giving pensions to widows, and unemployment benefit, and so on.

Talking of unemployment assistance, there is no doubt, I think, that people are benefiting by unemployment assistance whom it was not intended originally to benefit. If there is a better way, or if anyone can devise a system by which benefit will be given only to those who deserve to be helped, and only to those for whom it was originally intended, well and good, we will be only too happy to examine any suggestions in that direction. As I said on other occasions, it is going to be an extremely difficult task to separate the sheep from the goats. Then you will also want to look after those coming in to keep them out of a scheme which was never intended for them. That is one of the most difficult tasks we are faced with in our general policy of trying to improve the condition of the people as a whole, and particularly, the weaker members. When I was talking of the policy of the jungle, of unrestrained competition of laissez faire and all the rest, I intended to refer to the fact that in the Constitution, in different directions, as we pointed out, the one aim of the community was to assist the weaker members—to see that the weak did not go unnecessarily to the wall. Consequently, we have taken over the idea, in a policy based on justice as well as charity, of providing services which would enable the weak to continue to exist. I think I can leave now what I might call the foundation of this whole debate—the difference of policy between the Opposition and ourselves. I leave it with a repetition of the contention that, if you want to compare the effect of these two policies, you will have to take the two sides of each account. You will have to ascertain the advantages and disadvantages, estimate the difference between them and see on which side the balance lies. You will have to do that with each policy. Looking at the two sides of the Government accounts, our conclusion is that the policy we have adopted for the past eight years is the best policy for the common good and is in the general national interest. It was put before the people on several occasions. The speech I have made here this afternoon, minus the figures necessary to bring it up to date, might have been made at any time since Fianna Fáil was formed, or since this Government came into office. It was the case put to the people in asking them to choose between the two policies.

With regard to the present and immediate situation, the fact we have got to face is that there is a world war in progress and that every country in Europe is affected by it. We are, of necessity, affected by it. We are doing our utmost to shield our country from its effects. We are growing things off our own soil and manufacturing things at home and these provide a certain shield by rendering us less dependent on imports. It is no small matter to know that, if our farmers set to work, they can grow half our wheat requirements next year, that we can mill the wheat in our milling plants and thus have a supply of an essential commodity—bread. The same is true of another essential commodity—sugar. These are of no small advantage to us. That was not the main purpose for which our policy was adopted, but it was kept in sight in the adoption of the policy and it is helping now. Even what has been done is not going to shield this country from the effects of the conflict which is taking place. We have tried by our policy to shelter our people from immediately engaging in that conflict or being partisans. We have adopted a policy of neutrality, but even that is a policy for which we have to pay a considerable amount. When we are asked what we have to pay for it, we have to ask ourselves what is the alternative and what the policy that others might have adopted —the policy of engaging in this war— would have meant to our country, not merely in the blood of our people but also in the expense which the waging of war would have meant, expense far exceeding anything which the policy of neutrality will involve.

As I have said, neutrality cannot be secured without cost. If we are neutral, we are supposed to be in a position to protect our neutrality and to prevent that neutrality, so far as our means will ordinarily allow, from being violated. How are we to do that? We have had people objecting to some boats that are being acquired. We have territorial waters. It is our duty, if we want to maintain our neutrality, to put ourselves, as best we can, in a position in which our territorial waters cannot be used by belligerent craft—whether surface craft or submarine craft. We can do that only to a certain extent. We cannot act as if we were a nation which could afford to spend thousands of millions of pounds on equipment. To the extent that we are able to protect our neutrality will our neutrality be safe and will inducements be taken away from people who might have a desire, for one reason or another, to violate our neutrality. We are supposed, as neutrals, to keep our territorial waters clear of belligerent craft. We are doing that at present, partially, by air patrols. Over and above those air patrols, we want certain surface craft. These are the boats to which reference was made to-day. Does anybody here say that the price is too much?

What is the price?

The Deputy will get the figures ultimately. It is not going to be a large sum, but it will be a significant figure in our Budget when we remember what a penny in the lb. on sugar produces. When we estimate the tax that will produce the necessary revenue, it is a fair way of saying what it will cost. A certain minimum—we are not going beyond the minimum in any service of that kind—is adjudged necessary. We have tried to acquire that minimum equipment as quickly as we could. It is going to take time to get it, but it is capital expenditure, while another aspect of it is likely to be recurrent expenditure. Both figures are significant and have to be taken into account when we are considering Budget matters. The way to judge the matter is to ask ourselves if we want to be in a position in which our neutrality will not be immediately threatened. I say that it is worth making a certain sacrifice to get ourselves in that position. Therefore, we want a certain marine service which will involve the spending of a certain sum of money. If we want to come to a conclusion as to whether we will engage in this expenditure or not, the way to estimate its effects is to ascertain what tax will have to be put on sugar or tobacco, or some other article, in order to raise the required amount and see whether it is worth while paying that tax in order to keep our neutrality safe. Is it better to do that than to have our neutrality immediately and directly threatened by failing to put ourselves in a position to see that, so far as possible, our territorial waters are not occupied by belligerent craft.

Now we come to the land forces. When we came into this House as an Opposition, I referred to the Army expenditure. I think it was then nearly £2,500,000 per year.

£2,500,000?

Very near that. It was £2,300,000 the year before we came in. We pointed to that expenditure and suggested that a national defence policy be based on a small standing Army which could be developed in time of crisis or national necessity and on volunteer forces. We wanted, then, to have a small Army which would be the nucleus of a defence force, with trained officers, so that we could extend the volunteer forces. We pressed that policy. Either because the Government itself had come to a similar conclusion or for some other reason, there was a rapid reduction in the Army about the time we came in. I think it was reduced to a very low point, so far as numbers were concerned, about the year we came into office.

Now, our Army here has a number of things to do, and in an emergency it will have these things as well as other things to do. There is a number of important points in which a reasonable garrison must be kept. You can divide the needs of the Army into two classes: first of all, those who are required for defending fixed positions—that is, fixed troops—and then, if these fixed troops are held, in an emergency, to their positions, you want, in addition to them, a mobile force, and a mobile force of such a size as to be reasonably effective. These were the considerations which led the General Staff and the Minister for Defence to consider the present organisation of the Army in its present numbers, and we considered what would be the war strength that it would be reasonable to have and what would be the peace strength corresponding to such a war strength, or to whatever war expansion might occur in a case where we would be actually engaged as belligerents.

Taking these considerations into account, we arrived at certain figures. At the moment, perhaps, it is better not to go into details with regard to these figures, but at any rate they were got as notional figures upon which establishment figures were built up, and figures on which, similarly, war establishments and peace establishments were arrived at. Now there is a situation midway between the peace establishment and the conditions of actual open warfare where we would be actually engaged as a belligerent. I think there is nobody who will deny for a moment that in the present conditions the war is being waged around our coast. The principal war is being waged around our coast at the present time. It is not on the land in Europe that the war is being waged,—at the moment at any rate—it is being waged on the sea, and it is being waged around us, therefore. In a time like that, is there anybody who will say that our peace establishments, cut down to the bone as they were, would be sufficient? We did not think so, anyhow, and we believed that the bringing back of our reservists for a period of training, and getting our volunteer forces actually with the colours and giving them a period of training over and above the period they had got, was a wise measure both from the point of view of having with the colours a reasonable defence force, and also from the point of view of improving the efficiency of the Army during that time.

Now, we do not want to spend a penny more on the Army, police, or any other service, than the Opposition do, but we have the responsibility of seeing, to the best of our ability, that the country is safeguarded, and in going into the problems that we have got to face we have come to the conclusion that what we are doing at the moment, such as having the reservists who have been trained brought up to the Curragh—some of them have been sent back—and having certain Volunteers brought up, is the minimum which it would be in the national interests should be maintained. Very well, then; we have to pay for that. What are we paying for? We are paying for security. It is not perfect security. We cannot guarantee absolute security. No small country in Europe can do it. At present, Switzerland has its whole army mobilised. Some time ago we saw figures which suggested that the Swiss were paying over £250,000 a day in maintaining their army mobilised. Now, I am sure that at the present time there are certain people in Switzerland, and perhaps outside, just as we have certain people here, who say that that is not necessary, and who say: "Nobody is going to attack us; our neutrality was recognised." A number of the arguments such as we have here are also being used in Switzerland, but the Swiss Government has had to stand fast and say: "Although this is costing us the comparatively huge sum of £250,000 a day, and although, apart from that, there is huge economic loss to the community as a result of having these people taken out of production and placed in the army, nevertheless we are paying that sum and facing these economic losses because we want to remain what we are, and that is an independent State, and we do not want to be swallowed up by one or other of the contending parties, nor do we want our territory to become a cockpit for the contending parties." The same applies to Denmark, Holland, and other small countries. The same applies to Sweden and Norway. You may tell me that Sweden and Norway, perhaps, are in a different position, or rather that Denmark, Holland and Switzerland are in a very different position from ours, and that they are in far greater danger than we are. You might have said some time ago, perhaps—although, just now, you might not say it with equal certainty—that they were equally free from threat of attack; but look at the expense which these countries have to bear. Some of these countries are much smaller in size than our country, although the populations of most of them are greater.

Still, some of them are smaller countries than ours, and yet look at what they are spending on their protective forces. I think I have some figures here which will give you an idea of what they are spending in comparison with us. In Switzerland, in peace time—not at all in the position in which they have this huge army mobilised which, as I have said, is costing over £250,000 a day, but in peace time—they spend ordinarily on their army about 22.7 per cent. of their revenues. In Holland they spend some 15 per cent.; in Denmark 12 per cent.; in Norway 7 per cent. I have not the figures for Sweden at the moment, but here with us we were spending 5.1 per cent. You see, accordingly, that we are at the bottom of that list.

You may say that we are safer than all these countries. That may or may not be; perhaps we are and perhaps we are not, but at any rate, nobody can say that we are spending extravagantly on our defence forces here. The point is this: Is the freedom that was got worth defending and maintaining? Is it worth trying to have, at any rate, a reasonable addition—because we are not doing anything that is unreasonable—to our protective forces? We who have the responsibility, anyhow, say that it is, and we say that we are anxious that not one penny more be spent on our protective forces than is necessary. As we can see more and more what way this fight is going to develop, and as we look at the situation and see if opportunities are given and if conditions appear favourable for reduction, we are naturally anxious to reduce any cost that there may be, but so long as this condition of affairs continues, I think it would be wild and mad—it would be stupid—not to face the additional expenditure which, compared with that which other countries have to face, is relatively very small. I said that we, at any rate, are prepared to face that additional expenditure, and that we must face it; not that we desire it, but because the nation's needs and necessities and the protection of our people and of their rights demand that it should be faced.

The police were mentioned and the expenditure on the police force. I have explained on two or three occasions in this House the position in regard to the police. In the Budget Estimate there was provision, I think, for 400 or 500 additional, and ultimately we cut that down to a point at which those who were responsible—from the police point of view—held that they had too few. They have actually too few police at this moment to do the work that falls to them to do. Do not forget that we have used the police force not merely for ordinary police duties but as officers in connection with a number of our schemes. There are places in the country where one might say that there is no reason for having any Guards, but it will be found that in those particular areas they are doing definite work. The instructions given, and the attitude taken up by the Minister in charge, have been to try to reduce the cost to a minimum and to see that Guards are not maintained in any place where they are not required.

That brings me to another point. If everybody were absolutely honest and only took that which the Legislature intended him to take, if nobody took advantage of an Act which was not intended for him and if nobody was inclined to deceive, if we had perfection in our community, we would not need the number of officers that we have to send out at present—investigation officers and a whole lot of others which have been mentioned. But that is not so, and, therefore, we have to have these men, not merely to administer protection but to see that very many of the usual provisions of the Acts are not evaded. If every citizen was prepared to obey the law, and in dealing with his neighbour to avail of the courts in order to settle disputes—if we were able to do that and if we had a perfect community— we could undoubtedly do with far less Guards for police duties; but we want these men for dealing with census returns and various other matters in districts where otherwise they would not be required.

Again, surely the Government does not want—and nobody can suggest that the Government does want—to increase unduly the force of Guards? Surely nobody can suggest that it does not want to cut down expenditure? It would be a much more pleasant task for the Minister for Finance to come along here with a reduction in taxation than to come along and suffer the odium not merely of the House but of the country for increasing taxation. It is obvious that the attitude of mind of the Government must be to try to cut down expenditure and see that there is no waste. That is pretty obvious. Whether they are successful or whether other people might not be more successful is open to question, but that attitude of mind is obvious.

We have examined the police question with the Commissioner and we have come to the conclusion that we cannot—at the moment, anyhow—reduce the police force beyond what it is at present or make less provision than we have made. It must not be forgotten that this City of Dublin has grown tremendously in the last eight or ten years and that the growth of a city like this means a considerable addition to police work. That position has got to be met. There is extra traffic on the streets and, therefore, extra work in dealing with such traffic. One can, therefore, see the need for the police and for the provisions that we have been making. A number of the increases have been due to the usual increments, through men who came in as young men getting their usual increments as was decided upon. That goes on year after year and will, without any increase in personnel, naturally increase for a considerable period, until there are compensatory adjustments of various kinds.

I want the House to remember—in talking about the size of the police force—that they are more than a police force, they are agents for the Government Departments in a number of other services. They have work to do, and in addition one has got to remember that this capital city in particular has increased in size and that the traffic has increased also, and that this has added to the duties required of the Guards to perform.

Another point of criticism has been air raid precautions. There has probably been more misunderstanding and more criticism about this than about any other activity in connection with the present emergency. I think I explained in this House before the war the main purpose and main object of these air raid precautions. First of all, in order that our neutrality here might not be made use of by either of the belligerents as a means of attacking the other, we wanted that the lights from our city should not be a guide to aero-planes which might attack others or attack ourselves if such were in their minds. We wanted, to start with, to shut out what is known as the "skyglare". The lights of a great city can reveal the existence of that city to an aeroplane 15,000 feet or so from the ground, at a considerable distance away. We wanted, therefore, to ensure that, by the cowling of our lights, we should shut out any glare which might be reflected into the sky.

We knew that that amount of covering or cowling of lights would have to be done. It is pretty well done at the moment, but until that was done there was danger—particularly in the first weeks of the war, when nobody knew what form aerial warfare might take— and it was necessary in the earlier stages to have the only substitute possible, that is, a diminution of the amount of light. We have, then, this diminution of our light from our principal cities, particularly those near the coast which might be a guide to enemy aircraft enabling one belligerent to attack another. We wanted to get that sky glare diminished by cowling, and considerable progress has been made. As the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures has already explained to the House, the moment that is done we can have very much more lighting than we have had up to the present.

The next thing we wanted in regard to public lighting was to be able to shut it off into complete darkness at very short notice. In order to do that we had to have certain switches which were not in the existing system. Those had to be got and put in, so that if there was actually an attack upon ourselves and it was necessary to have a complete black-out we could have it. There used to be in the old lesson books a phrase to the effect that the boar does not put off sharpening his tusks until the enemy——

"Never put off sharpening your swords until the drum beats to battle."

That is an important lesson for us, that provsion for protection must be made well in advance. We must remember that the world will not end when this war is over. There may be other wars and nobody is going to think for one moment that wars in the future will not develop aerial combat, aerial warfare and bombardments from the air— unless we get sense at last, and I think we are very far off from getting that kind of sense. I think we will have to recognise that attacks from the air will be a likely feature of any future war. What is being done now will be a protection for this community, not merely against the present war but against the future. If at any time such circumstances unhappily arise as make it necessary for us to take protection against aerial attack, we will have, not merely for this war, but afterwards, the power of shutting off at very short notice—at a signal—our public lights. That means, as far as public lighting is concerned, cowling and the ability to shut the lights off at short notice.

Another thing which we specially wish to provide for is in regard to private lighting. Obviously, the thing to be aimed at was the ability to shut off the lighting quickly and that, first of all, there should not be any lights except one or two in the front of the house, that all the windows might be so capable of being covered by curtains or blinds that when lights are lighted they will not be visible outside. Once that is done, we are in a position in which, when an order goes forth to the people: "During this period, you must not have light visible," it can be done. But, again, that takes time, and remember that the people on the Continent have been making preparations and taking these measures so as to enable them to meet an urgency such as this, or the greater emergency of an actual attack, for years back. We have had to begin to take them now. Some people say that there is no likelihood of air attack upon us. Again, I say that nobody can tell what will be the future development of this war. It is our business, when we have the opportunity of doing it, to take the protective measures which other countries have had to take, with due regard, of course, to our means, and providing in the first instance against the more imminent and likely dangers and leaving to a later period protection against the dangers that are less likely, but possible.

These protective measures have meant a certain amount of expenditure over and above the items which come into our usual Budget, but there is one thing I should like to say with regard to this Supplementary Budget. Many Deputies have talked about increases in taxation. Increases are necessary where there is extra expenditure, undoubtedly, but remember that the greater part of the speech of the Minister, and of the Budget figures, had reference rather to a decrease in the amount coming in. I think £1,600,000 odd was the amount estimated we were going to receive less from certain taxes and duties than we had estimated for. Why was that the case? Because war conditions prevented goods from coming in. Clothing apparel, petrol, motor parts and so on were not coming in to the extent which they came in before and, therefore, the customs duties on these were not gathered. In other words, the citizens were not paying these taxes, so that so far as that deficiency is concerned the new taxation is not additional taxation, but substitute taxation. I am quite willing to admit straight off that we would very much have preferred to get that money in the ways designed in the last Budget than to get it by substitute taxation, but it is substitute taxation, and do not forget it. What we have not got out of the left-hand pocket we have had to get out of the right-hand pocket, but except that the incidence is different and that it is not quite the same class of the community which pays it, the new taxes do not represent extra taxation. They represent substitute taxation—admittedly, a substitute which we reluctantly had to face— instead of the taxes that were designed originally.

I think I have said most of the things I wanted to say. I repeat that we cannot take these things apart from the general policy of which they are a part. We cannot take the disadvantages without considering the advantages, and we cannot compare two policies unless we compare them as a whole. With regard to the emergency, I repeat that the measures which we are taking are the minimum which we think will carry us safely through this period. Those who want us not to face that expenditure are inviting us to take risks, so far as the country is concerned, which we, as a Government, do not think it is in the national interest to take. Some people can gamble if they want to, but there is a limit to the extent to which it is right, in the public interest, to take risks of the kind. These are insurance, and we have to regard them as insurance costs, and I believe generally that these costs are justified. I therefore naturally support the Minister in the Bill he has put before the House.

For the benefit of the members of the Fianna Fáil Party who have been conspicuously absent from this debate, I should like to say that what we are discussing is the necessity or otherwise of imposing £603,000 additional taxation——

Substitute taxation.

——on sugar, tobacco, beer and spirits. That is the proposal before the House. We consider it a very serious blunder, and what we are discussing here to-day is, not the past blunders of the Taoiseach, his Ministers or his Party, but the blunder of to-day. On Friday there was a Government attempt to black-out this discussion. Now, the Taoiseach has come in to-day to try to smoke us out. I thought at first that he had made a mistake in the speech he brought in. I thought it was a speech rather like that which one would get at the opening of a general election. I felt rather convinced of that until he got further on in his speech, and I am assured by him now that it was done deliberately. I want to say that we ought to deal with what is in front of us, and what is in front of us is that the Minister for Finance proposes that the consumers of sugar shall be asked to pay £243,000; of tobacco £277,000; of beer, £50,000; of spirits, £20,000, and that estates duty shall be asked to pay £13,000. On the general Budget resolution, I appealed to the Minister and to the members of the Government not to insist on dragging across this discussion the various things they did succeed in dragging across. I said that to discuss these would be unhelpful and irrelevant, and I understand from remarks made by the Minister for Finance that my appeal made an impression on him. I am sorry it did not make an impression on the Taoiseach, because the Minister for Finance, in introducing the Second Reading, instead of following the line of thought which I was on, simply reiterated that they were going to be down £1,620,000 in their expected revenue, that they were spending a considerable amount on the Army and that they were approaching a situation in which they were going to economise to the extent of £400,000, going to tax to the extent of £603,000, and going to borrow the rest. I suggest to the Minister that the very thing which he expressed himself as being afraid of is the very thing that is happening as a result of the imposing of this £603,000 additional taxation. When we discussed the proposed Army expenditure, both on the Estimates and during the Budget discussion at the beginning of the year, the House was asked to vote £3,250,000 for the Army, and it was indicated that £1,388,000 of that was going to be borrowed. The House was also informed that an additional £4,250,000 was going to be spent during the financial year ending March, 1941, on Army buildings and equipment. What has happened is that the Army has been mobilised, and, principally because the Army has been mobilised, additional expenditure is necessary.

If the expenditure on the equipment of the Army can be borrowed, why could not the additional £603,000 be borrowed and why should this supplementary Budget be presented at this stage? What is the effect of it? The effect of it is to bring about the exact situation which the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce have expressed themselves as really fearing at the moment. Rising costs as the result of the war situation reacting on this country and rising wages following that, are going to bring about a spiral tendency in these things one after another. That is going to have an inflationary effect and is going to damage this country economically. There is no use in the Government saying that they are afraid of invasion at the present time. There is no use in their saying that they are terribly excited about the equipment of the Army at present. There seems to be no attempt to get the equipment that was ordered at the beginning of the year. No attention at all seems to be paid to the real danger. I submit the real danger to this country and the challenge to its security at present will come from rising costs followed by rising wages, followed by still more rising costs and by a general disturbance and disintegration of the economic and even of the political life of the country. Government action, which results in driving up costs and which in consequence leads to demands for increased wages has a far more serious effect on the economic position of the country than any effects resulting from the war outside. What is the reason why this £603,000 cannot be put into the borrowing pool at present, so that we could carry on with the existing taxation until March or April of next year? Then we could have a clear view both of the position as regards industry in this country and the effect of the war on prices here and also in so far as it might impinge on the necessity for a real defence here. These matters would be shown in a much clearer perspective in another four months time.

Just as we have been plunged into expense on an unnecessary black-out and on the erection of air raid shelters in Merrion Square and other places, here we are being plunged into a much more serious expense. In spite of all that is said in the Constitution about a desire to see that the weak do not go to the wall, we are taking from people who are the weakest in this country at the present time, people who must suffer the first shock of the rise in the cost-of-living. We are saddling them with increased expenses without regard to the ordinary expenditure which they have to incur on the necessaries of life and the amount of money they have at their disposal.

We are not told of any increased expenditure on unemployment benefit or on relief works. We do not hear of any increased expenditure to get our building machinery going again, although it is a definitely accepted fact that there has been increased unemployment here, and that there will be increased unemployment as a result of the war situation. Despite the panegyric of the Taoiseach about present conditions in this country, there were more persons registered as unemployed for every month of this year than there were for every month of last year or the year before. Apart from the war situation, the number of registered unemployed was increasing here, while in walks of life, in which unemployment is not disclosed by registration, there has also been an increase in unemployment. We see no reference to the fact that any part of the increased expenditure provided for in this Bill will be devoted to relieving that unemployment. Yet it is down on these poor people who are unemployed that the taxation proposed in the present Bill is being imposed.

It cannot be denied that the position in regard to revenue is somewhat obscure. I have no doubt that the tendency of the revenue had been carefully watched. We have the position in regard to customs that, at the time the Budget proposals were put before the House, it was estimated that in the 12 months ended the 31st March next, an increase of £179,000 was expected in customs duty. What is the position in regard to the existing revenue from customs duty? In the first eight months of the year, £850,000 more had been received in customs duty than was received last year. There is a very big margin there. On the income-tax side the situation is different. An extra 1/- was imposed at the beginning of the year on income-tax, and that was expected to bring in in 12 months an increase of £374,000. We advised the Minister at that time that it was very likely that he would not get the revenue from income-tax which he expected as a result of the increase. We do not know how things may stand at the end of the year, but up to the present time, that is, for the first eight months of the year, the revenue from income-tax instead of being up, as against the first eight months of last year, is down. It is down by £243,000. That shows that you do not always get your expected revenue by increasing taxes. The fact that you impose these taxes on sugar and tobacco does not necessarily mean that you are going to get all the increased revenue which you expect. In a situation where prices are naturally tending to rise because of outside influences, by Government action prices are being still further increased for every home in the country.

These increases in prices are being most appreciably felt in the homes of people who can least afford to bear them. I ask why on earth, with the danger that is confronting the Minister, which confronts him so much that he has made special reference to it in his remarks on this Budget, could we not wait to borrow this £600,000 just as you are borrowing the other £1,300,000 and as you are promising to borrow another £4,500,000 in order to equip the Army? Why could not the £600,000 be borrowed? Why could we not go through to the end of the year until we knew the full impact of the war on conditions here, undisturbed by Government action with regard to taxation so that we could get a clear view of how outside events, and outside events alone, were going to affect the position of rising prices here. We could have an impression of how we were going to have increased production, if there was going to be an offset in taxation, as well as of what was going to provide an increased margin for taking additional taxation, if additional taxation was necessary.

I think that the Government's action in introducing this Supplementary Budget imposing taxation of this particular kind, at this particular moment, is as disastrous a blunder as ever the Party opposite was guilty of. Because of the tendency to increase prices, a tendency which has been definitely stirred up by the Government, we will find ourselves at the normal Budgetary period in the position in which we cannot view the effects of this war on the country undisturbed, due to internal messing such as this. I do not see that any action by the Minister now could redress the mistake that has been made, but yet, I think, it would be well worth while, as a gesture, to withdraw these proposals for taxation. It would be well worth while to say that you were going to leave taxation here undisturbed. I think that a gesture of that kind might do something to throw back rising costs. It might do something to show that the Government were really serious in doing their part to prevent costs rising unnecessarily here. Not only, in my opinion, has their action disturbed the situation at the present time, but by March or April next it is going to put us in the position in which we will not be able truly to assess the situation in this country. I would like to stick simply to that challenge: that the Government are simply messing the situation here by blind, hasty, ill-thought out action. There is no declaration of policy of any kind enshrined in either the Budget statement or the Finance Bill. If there is a scrap of policy in it, then I say it is such that it has not given any real consideration to the effects behind it.

I hesitate to leave unanswered some of the things that the Taoiseach dragged across the situation here this evening. His speech was utterly irrelevant and certainly unhelpful to a discussion of the serious matters that affect us in this country. All his talk about the Army, liberty and security was all nonsense and futility. The only way in which we can secure our country and our liberty is by dealing with our business here in a proper way, and by discussing things with the facts clearly known. I say that the Taoiseach's intervention this evening was for the purpose, deliberately, of smoke-screening this discussion. He described the economic policy of this Party here as the policy of the jungle. I will not say any more on that except to make the comment that he so described it. I want to say that in the conditions brought on this country by the war, and in the conditions here at the present time, we are considering these matters in circumstances in which certain tendencies have been showing themselves over the country in the last three or four years. What are these tendencies? The Taoiseach spoke about the valuable things that the policy pursued by the Fianna Fáil Party over the last seven or eight years have brought on the country. Since 1935, in spite of all that was done for agriculture, 36,309 fewer men have been employed in Irish fields at agricultural work.

Not since 1935. Since 1926.

I can tell the Minister for Industry and Commerce that his Department of Statistics will assure him that in June, 1935, there were 573,531 men employed in agriculture.

The reliable figures are the figures secured as a result of the census taken in June, 1936.

I am giving the Minister for Industry and Commerce the statistical figures that tell us, year by year, what the tendency is of certain things that bear on the economic condition of this country. In case the Minister is not fully assured of the tendency, I will tell him that the number of men employed in agriculture in June, 1934, was 579,409. In the year 1935 the figure was 573,531. In June, 1938—the 1939 figures are not yet available—the number was reduced to 537,222, so that, taking the figures from 1935 alone, 36,309 men have faded off agricultural work on the land. In the same period, but up to June, 1939, the population had declined by 37,000. In the same period there had been 41,000 emigrants. In the same period the total amount of tilled land had gone down by 101,000 acres. The striking fact of all that is, that if the Minister will refer to the estimate of the crops for this year he will see that in 1939 there were 78,400 less acres under the plough than in the previous year: that there were less cattle, less pigs and less sheep. The one increase we had in agriculture was an 0.2 per cent. in poultry.

We are considering, and dealing with, an economic and social situation arising in this country with these facts before us: falling employment on the land, emigration, a falling population and rising taxation. Every year since the Party opposite got into power taxation has been rising. During the current year, if the Budgetary situation had stood and if the Estimate had not gone up, we would still be spending £10,000,000 more than when the Fianna Fáil Party came in as a Government, half of that being taken as tax revenue, £2,000,000 of it as revenue, and the rest, I suppose, borrowed money. With that situation of increased expenditure here we have had more unemployed in every month this year than last year. Now, when we are driven into a war situation, taxation is being imposed here for a comparatively petty amount that hits the people who are already being bent more and more under the present situation by unemployment—I might mention the unemployment from which they were already suffering and the unemployment that is coming to them as a result of the war. I think it would be very difficult to characterise the magnitude of that blunder. We are paying very dearly for it by economic unrest.

There is not a single part of the country from which letters do not come giving most harrowing pictures of the position of decent unfortunate people who are trying to live their lives, and who are simply harried out of existence by their inability to support their families. It is in a situation like that that this disastrous blunder of the Minister for Finance comes on the country. It is very difficult to characterise it in anything like reasonable terms. We hoped and had been hoping that the men who shouldered the responsibility for ministerial office at the present time would have made a thoughtful review of the situation and would set the position before every class and before every Party in the country, and that thus it would be possible without misunderstanding and without irritation that every class and Party in the country would assist one and the other to get through whatever difficulties exist. But so far as there are difficulties to-day these difficulties are magnified and increased—if the greater part of them are not created—by Government action and want of consideration.

I think the contribution by the Taoiseach to-day was a disgraceful contribution coming from a man who holds and shoulders the responsibilities that he does. Such a man should be very careful and thoughful about the present situation. I confess I did hope for better things. I did hope when the Minister for Finance spoke the other day that we should get some kind of reasonable exposition of the position; that we would get some hope of understanding here, that the House would be treated as a House of intelligent representatives, representatives of every class and constituency in the country, who come here fairly well-informed as to the conditions around them and fairly responsible as to the duties that devolve on them to assist in improving the situation in the country. But nothing that has come from any of the speakers on the Government side during the debate on this Budget and Finance Bill, has shown that it is the kind of contribution that would be of help in a discussion of the kind we have here. I do not know whether it leaves this discussion entirely hopeless so far as the House and the country are concerned.

I ask the members, when replying, to state exactly what the necessity was for creating a situation with regard to the rising prices and costs in order to get this small bit of money, especially when one takes into consideration the amount of money they are planning to borrow, and particularly when it is for the Army and for Army equipment that they are borrowing. In that connection, I would like Ministers to consider this: are they going to spend on the Army the money that they plan to raise next year through borrowing? I hope that they will then have a clearer conception as to what are the military dangers that confront this country, and a clearer idea as to what will be the military machine they want organised to avoid these dangers. There is not a single one of the Ministers who have spoken who is not at sixes and sevens with the others with regard to what the dangers are, and with regard to what particular type of machine we should have here to combat and resist these dangers. It is, as I say, disastrous both to the political and social situation in this country that this thoughtless Budget is introduced, and this taxation sought to be imposed in the manner in which that is being done. We had hoped that there would be some clearer view of the situation. By the time they come to the financial end of the year we hope the Government will be able to present a saner idea of the position, and that they will have shown that they have given more thought to the consideration of the future than one would expect, judging from their present proposals. We do hope that they will have given saner thought to these things than they have done up to the present.

Deputy Mulcahy has expressed surprise at the speech delivered here by the Taoiseach on the Budget this afternoon. There is not in the speech of the Taoiseach, where he expressed again, for perhaps the hundredth time, the policy of the Government, one item which, if we take the ordinary rules of debate, could be regarded as out of order. I think the Chair would have reminded the Taoiseach as the Chair reminds every Deputy who strays beyond the limits of order, that he had been out of order. There was not one item in the Taoiseach's speech that was not raised over and over again by the members of the Opposition in the debate on the question of the Budget. I think it is true to say that there was hardly one member of the Opposition who spoke who did not raise this question of Government policy.

Every member of the Opposition criticised the Budget because practically every one of the Opposition spoke of this extra taxation as being imposed on certain items, as if this extra money was required for the Army. They scoffed at the idea that we should spend any extra money on our Defence force; they scoffed at the idea that anything extra was necessary to be spent in this time of emergency. Deputy Mulcahy expressed the same idea here this afternoon. I think with his knowledge and experience he should be the last to develop that line of discussion. The Army is needed here in normal times for normal Defence purposes. If that be so and if we have to spend £1,500,000 to £2,000,000 on the Army during normal times, does it not stand to reason that in times of emergency, when as has been said here by several speakers on this side of the House and again expressed by the Taoiseach this afternoon, we are in the very centre of a war area, in a very delicate international position, more money is now necessary? Does it not stand to reason that in such circumstances we have to take every precaution and we have to spend the additional money necessary to make certain that that delicate international position of our neutrality is not to be impinged upon to our detriment by any of the belligerents?

I was surprised to hear Deputy Mulcahy—a man who lectures so often here on economic and financial matters that one gets the idea that he believes he knows a good deal about finance, and perhaps he does—suggesting that the right thing to have done was to have borrowed for the additional expenses that are required due to the emergency, and particularly for Army expenditure. I should like to hear what the Deputy and his colleagues would have had to say if we had proposed borrowing all that money. Whatever Deputy Mulcahy's indignation was this afternoon at the idea that we should ask the Dáil here to impose additional taxation under certain heads to make up the loss that we estimated we were going to sustain in our revenue, his indignation would have been tenfold if we had dared to suggest to the House that we should go on to the end of the financial year with the full knowledge of the fact—taking the best advice we could get from experienced men—that we were going to be short in our revenue, to the extent of £1,600,000 odd, from the taxation imposed in the Budget of May of this year. That was the figure given by the experts.

Then why did you not tax for the whole of it?

We have heard a good deal from Deputy Mulcahy about the taxes we have put on. His wrath and his indignation have been boiling over because we have suggested—and the Dáil has agreed to some extent already—that that taxation is necessary. They have agreed to allow us to put on that taxation, and the Deputy wants to know now why we did not put on double that, or more. I think the Deputy knows—certainly his chief beside him, who was Minister for Finance, knows, as does every member of the Government, and above all, the person who has to bear the brunt of the brickbats during the debates— that it is no pleasant task to come in and face this House with a Budget such as I presented here on the 8th November. It was not for fun that that was done. It was not done, as was suggested by Deputy Mulcahy, because due consideration had not been given to the matter by the Government. The matter was thought out and debated by the Government over a sufficiently long time to arrive at the full extent to which our financial and economic position was going to be affected through conditions arising out of the war emergency, so far as the best of our judgment and advice could go. That showed us that our revenue was going to fall very considerably. The taxation that we have put on has been described by somebody here—and I think I agree with him—as a blister which the country has been asked to bear. That is true, but if in our view that extra sum of money—the sum of money that we budgeted for here in May last to carry us over the financial year ending on 31st March next—was necessary for all the services of the State, then it is necessary in the Government's opinion that that money be provided. It is to provide that money that we have asked this Dáil to put on the taxation that we asked it to impose, in order to give us as much as we thought we could get in this period to tide over the difficult interval between 8th November and 31st March next. Deputy Mulcahy asked for a declaration of policy. He saw no declaration of policy in the Budget, or in the speeches made introducing the Budget or supporting it. There is one thing that is clear, and certainly more clear because of the adverse criticism to which we have been subjected arising out of the Supplementary Budget. It is a Budget and a policy of financial honesty and straightforwardness. That is one for Deputy Cosgrave.

That is the best joke I heard to-day.

We came here and told the House the facts. We told the House the situation we were in. If we had adopted the other policy suggested by Deputy Mulcahy this evening, we would have cloaked it and waited until 31st March to see how the cat would jump, as he told us. We would have said nothing; we would have hidden the fact that we were not going to get what we had expected to get in the way of revenue. We would have cloaked it up and gone to the country without telling the people how we were circumstanced. That is the Opposition policy, as against the policy of coming to the House and putting the facts before it, saying what our position was, and how much money we wanted in order to go as near as we could to balancing the Budget. I believe we will have it balanced when it comes to be summed up at the end of the financial year.

When you borrow £6,000,000?

We will borrow £6,000,000, and the Deputy's Government often borrowed when they were in office, and for good purposes, as we are going to borrow. It will be put to good use.

I hope so.

There is nothing wrong in Government borrowing. Does the Deputy suggest there is?

What price will you pay for it?

We will pay as reasonable a price as we can, as low a price as we can, and hope that we will make the offer attractive to those who have money to lend.

And keep those of the weaker section existing, as was suggested a few minutes ago.

I hope when the Lord Mayor of Cork is Minister for Finance he will be able to borrow money for nothing.

I believe we should be in a position to get the credit of the country without paying for it.

Without paying for it?

Without paying interest on it.

I wish to God you were Minister for Finance.

We should be in a better position than merely able to keep the weaker sections in existence.

In your election speech do not make any promise that you are going to borrow money without paying anything for it.

The Minister is sorry for his promises now.

Do not make any promises of that kind. I am sure Deputy Norton will not follow in the Deputy's footsteps in that direction. He is a wiser man than to make any promises of that sort.

I want to hear the Minister apply himself more introspectively to the dangers of promises.

I do not think I made any promise on any political platform that I have not gone very near indeed to putting into performance— as near as any human being could go. That is my answer to the Deputy.

That is your view.

That is my answer to the Deputy. I believe there is not a man in the House who has not made promises. We have all made promises of a kind. Perhaps I have had flights of imagination now and then.

You said enough.

We are all human beings and, if you are interrupted and poked at, especially at a street corner, as in my constituency—I do not know about Deputy Norton's—perhaps you will say things that, when you read them in the newspaper in the morning, if you had a chance you would put in another way. As regards any serious political promise that I ever made, there is no man who can say that anyone could go nearer to fulfilling it than I have done. But I certainly am not going to make a promise now, or at any other time, that we can, on behalf of the Government, ask for a loan of £1,000,000 or £10,000,000 and pay nothing for it. You cannot do that.

You should be in a position to know the opinion of the country now.

You will have to pay for it. Any money we expect to get, people have earned that money. We will get that loan from people with £50, £100, £500 and larger sums. There will be wealthy people and wealthy corporations subscribing to it, but they and every person who puts £100 or £50 of hard earned savings into that loan will have to be paid back with interest. They have it, perhaps, in the form of Savings Certificates, in the Post Office, or somewhere else, and the least they get is 2½ per cent. If we want it we will need to pay more. Some of the people who have these savings that the Deputy would take and give no return for—if I understand him correctly—are poor widows.

I meant nothing of the kind.

You will take their money and give them nothing in return for it. That would be unworthy of the Deputy.

The Minister well knows that I have not that in my mind.

How are you going to get it?

As the Government, you should be able to control the credit of the country and not put the people in debt. It is on the credit of the nation that you are going to borrow that money.

I would be quite prepared to debate this matter with the Deputy in Cork on another occasion, or with the gentleman who is doing all the propaganda on financial matters in Cork at the present time. Perhaps he is the financial adviser to the Deputy?

He is not.

With him, or with anybody else, I would be very happy to debate this question.

He is very close to yourself.

The gentleman to whom you refer.

It would not be the first time they had novel solutions in Cork for financial worries.

Perhaps the Deputy, at a suitable opportunity, will be able to inform us what he means by that?

Ask your Parliamen tary Secretary—no income-tax.

I would rather hear it from the Deputy, who seems to know so much about it.

The no income-tax proposal.

It would suit a lot of us if we could get away with it.

It might be useful at an election.

Deputy Mulcahy talked about the borrowing of this money. It has been indicated already that we had arranged to borrow a considerable sum for defence purposes. That we intend to do in order to enable us to carry out our policy, realising that all of the expenditure arising out of the emergency need not necessarily be met out of this year's or next year's receipts. It will be postponed for some time, anyhow, and those who come after us will have to bear their share of it. But we have to decide what proportion of these extra expenses may be borrowed and, believe it or not, we do take time to consider and are conscientious and scrupulous in deciding what proportion of that increased expenditure could be put by to be borne year after year in the years to come. We realise that the expenditure is heavy and that it cannot all be borne, and need not all be borne, this year. We have to use our judgment and experience to decide how much of it we can afford to treat as a capital sum that can be borrowed. We have set aside a considerable sum for defence purposes and equipment. That will be paid for out of borrowings in years to come; but there is a considerable amount that we have to bear year after year, and this year and next year this amount will be much heavier.

It certainly is a revelation to me that Deputy Mulcahy, speaking as a responsible, serious leader of the Opposition, would suggest that we should not have informed the House of the position; that we should not have said anything about it and that we should go on until the 31st March next, when we could see how the situation would develop. What is our position? We were advised by those whose duty it is to advise us, what our financial situation was arising out of the emergency, and we were told that we would not get the moneys for which we budgeted. The Deputy suggests that we should have kept that fact hidden from the public and from the Dáil and that we should go on as if nothing had happened and as if we were getting the money in in the ordinary course. That is not a policy that this Government would stand for.

The Minister would not be hiding that if he was borrowing a definite sum; he would have to state the position when he was borrowing.

When we had before us the facts as to our financial position, we decided that the Dáil should be told at the earliest opportunity. We decided that the full facts should be put before the Dáil and all the figures given. We had to make up our minds what we would have to ask in the way of, as the Taoiseach called it, substitute taxation, which would have to be imposed by the House to make up what we were losing, the revenue we were losing as a result of the emergency.

The Government have not given us the full facts.

You may have done so, but other Ministers have not. There were any amount of questions raised on matters which the public should know, and we have been refused an answer.

Every fact that could be given, without danger or without hurting national interests, has been given.

The safety of the nation!

Every fact has been given and will be given—every fact and every figure. I do not know whether the Deputy is as old or as experienced as I am, but he is no child, and he reads the papers and he reads history. Will he tell us what country in Europe gives every fact and figure in its Parliament relating to matters of this kind—matters of national security?

I have not the slightest interest in any other country in Europe at the moment, but I am interested in the very poor people of this country.

I have given every fact and figure and, if there is anything else that can be given, I will be very happy to give it. Again I will say, speaking for myself, that it is not with enthusiasm that I come to the Dáil as Minister for Finance and ask the House to agree that this extra taxation on sugar, beer, spirits and tobacco be imposed. I know as well as Deputy Mulcahy what difficulties extra taxation of that kind is going to impose on every class of the community, particularly the effect of certain items of it on poor people. I am not saying I have any better knowledge than he. I am not saying I have any more sympathy with the poor than he, but I know it as well as he does or any other man in this House. It is not for fun it is done. Deputy Mulcahy need not come in here preaching sermons to me on how the poor have suffered. He need not preach in this House. I think there is not a Deputy in the House, whatever Party he belongs to, that does not feel that it is a hard thing to have to put taxation of that kind, say, on sugar.

The thing is, do you realise it sufficiently?

I think we do. I think everybody here does. I can speak for every member of the Government. They know it full well. None of them was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Most of them were born in poor circumstances, like myself, brought up amongst the poor. They know all about them and about the poor in the tenements, as well as anybody in this country.

That is not the point.

No. I want to tell Deputy Mulcahy that we realise what we are doing, as well as he or any Deputy in the House. We know full well. But the money has to be got, and taxation has to be put on to get it. Nobody suggested how that sum of money could be got other than by taxation. Many members of the Opposition, Deputy Cosgrave leading off and others following, said that we could go through the first 20 items in the book of Estimates and save money. None of them pinned himself down to a figure as to what we would save.

I gave the figures.

I am sorry if I misrepresent the Deputy. What figure did the Deputy suggest?

I gave a figure of over £1,000,000, not touching the Army at all.

That the Deputy would save?

That you are spending over and above the figures in respect of 1931-32.

Take one item in that.

Take the first—the Prime Minister's establishment.

Take local government, that I know something about. That is why I have mentioned it.

I have not mentioned it, except as regards the officials.

As regards the officials, the Deputy mentioned local government.

You are spending £50,000 more. But I did not suggest anything else off local government, except that.

Let us take that one item. When I went in as Minister for Local Government, in 1932, I was asked by the Government to produce a Housing Bill, which I did, and which the Government and the House adopted. In order to implement that Housing Bill and to get housing going, we had to increase the housing section in the Department of Local Government enormously.

To the extent of £1,000 a week?

Enormously. I was astonished myself at the number of additional clerks that had to be employed—astonished—and I went into it very closely. At one time, some years ago, when I got complaints from the country about delays in paying housing grants, I got the secretary and the head of the housing section to come down to the office to me, and I examined the matter closely. I asked why there was necessity for two weeks' delay in acknowledging a letter, and I asked how many letters they received in a day. I cannot pin myself down to the accuracy of the figure now, but it was in the region of 3,000 a day at that time into that one section alone. I had to agree that the staff had to be increased substantially. That is one item alone where I was conscientiously satisfied that there had to be a large increase in staff and, naturally, they had to be paid. That is reflected in the increase in numbers and in the increase in cost.

What is true of that section of local government is equally true of another section, the section that dealt with public health services, waterworks and sewerage. There never was in any one year in the history of this country half as much or quarter as much work done in the way of waterworks and sewerage improvements, and new schemes, as was done every year I was in Local Government. There was done every year five or six times the amount that was done in the year before. You cannot do all that without staff. These are items I know of. I can give the House my word of honour that there was reason for the increase there in the staff and in the salaries. I think every Deputy in the House will have to agree that there was good work done in housing and public health services, and I do not think any Deputy, honestly answering, could deny there was good work done. You have to pay for it. I do not object to paying staff and paying good wages, but I want to see results. Certainly in that respect, whatever increase in staff there was, we got good value for it, in my opinion.

Are you not going to save this year?

Housing is to go on. Housing grants are going to continue.

I am glad to hear the Minister saying that housing grants are going to continue.

Yes. Is the Deputy disappointed with the answer he got?

Are not they being refused at the present time?

No. They were held up for examination as to what our condition was. We had to get a clear picture of how much we would have to spend. They were held up for some time.

Deputy Cosgrave suggested that we could save in regard to officials. A certain number of the civil servants in the various Departments retire annually, no doubt, not a very considerable number, but the salaries and wages of those who remain in the Service go up every year, and even if you had not one extra person in the Department of Local Government in the eight years from 1931, the cost would have gone up. Deputy Cosgrave gave the figure for 1931, but had not one individual been added the cost would have gone up—I do not know to what extent but probably 20 or 25 per cent. on the salaries and wages alone. That accounts for a certain amount, so that you could not say the figure Deputy Cosgrave gave—roughly, £1,000,000 might be saved on these estimates. Nothing like it.

For our deficiency in revenue alone we want £1,600,000 odd. I know what this additional tax on the people means. I know that people resent it; even people who can afford to pay resent it. I do not meet many of these people but I meet some of them occasionally, and whenever I do, and since this Budget came in, I find that the wealthier they are the rougher they are in their attacks on me about the additional taxation. Deputy Mulcahy said that letters come from people from every part of the country, from people who are harried out of their lives because of the extra taxation that this Government has put upon the country since it came into office; that year after year, the extra taxation has mounted. There is only one way of testing that and testing the feeling of the people in general.

Goodness knows we have had quite a sufficiency of general elections since 1932. Is not that true? We have gone to the country over and over again, more often, I think, than normally would be necessary, and every time the Opposition have had their chance to put their case about this extra taxation, broken promises, and all that kind of thing. They did not miss an opportunity of rubbing it in. They rubbed it in here, and they rubbed it in all over the country, to the best of their ability, and the best of their ability has not availed them much, because we have improved our position every time, and at the last election more than ever. The country knows the facts as well as any Deputy here.

Do not whistle too long after passing the cemetery.

They know the facts. Deputies can try to get over them in any way they like, but the facts are there. There were three general elections—1933, 1937 and 1938. There were casualties on all sides; people fell by the roadside, but Fianna Fáil came in with a greater majority.

They went up, and their followers went down.

Fianna Fáil came in. Some of the gentlemen who criticised most came in here by the skin of their teeth, and since then they have more to say than ever, feeling, perhaps, that their only chance of getting back the next time is to make themselves as vocal as possible, but probably it will have the opposite effect.

There is a little more than that in it.

Deputy Dillon went over the same ground as Deputy Cosgrave about the book of Estimates and about setting out the essential and the unessential items. I think any non-Party committee of this House that might sit down and go through that book and analyse it, would find it very difficult to get any concensus of opinion as to what items, let us say, of the extra expenditure imposed by Fianna Fáil ought to be struck out, because, though some people do not like us to mention it, and say that there is no use in dragging in the social services because nobody wants to cut them down, the greater part of the extra expenditure that has been imposed on the country by this Government arises out of the social services. Nobody wants to cut them down.

All of us, even including the Opposition, would, if the country could afford it, like to see many of them increased and improved. Is not that the position? Certainly nobody wants to cut down the social services introduced by this Government or by the last Government, whatever they are. If there is anything more that can be done for the poorer elements in the community, everyone here in every Party would like to see that done, but we have to cut our coat according to our cloth. While everybody clamours for increased expenditure on social services and services of that kind, nobody likes footing the bill. When the bill is presented, people want to know why we cannot cut down this, that, and the other.

Deputy Dillon has been dealt with pretty fully by the Taoiseach in his speech this afternoon. He clamoured for the abolition of the wheat, beet, peat, and industrial alcohol schemes. If the Government would get rid of these experiments and get rid of Fianna Fáil policy then, he said: "We are prepared to co-operate with them". That was Deputy Dillon's speech: "Get rid of Fianna Fáil policy and then we will co-operate; take a middle ground." We are here as a Government because we advocated a certain policy and stuck to it and carried it through, and if we desert that policy we ought not to be here; some other people ought to be in our places. The policy we have been put into office to carry out we have steadfastly carried out and we intend to carry it out until the country decides otherwise. The country will in due time get its opportunity to decide between our policy and any other policy that may be put to the country.

Deputy Dillon and other Deputies also referred to the question of deflation—the high costs now and the deflation period that would follow after the war comes to an end. It was the experience of the last war, having lived through that and seen what happened during the war and after the war, that induced me to say what I did say as a warning in introducing the Budget— that the Government would have to try to set its face against these large increases and the vicious circle, or, as others call it, the spiral, the upward tendency, that is bound to follow. Certain increases in prices cannot be stopped. No Government can control all the prices or control completely increase in prices; but it can discourage increases, and the Government intends to do that wherever possible, so that we can, as far as possible, avoid that spiral increase in costs, salaries, wages and profits, that we saw go up to such alarming heights during the last war and then come down in such a hurry, with disastrous results to so many people when the period of deflation arrived after the war.

The Minister for Lands, speaking down the country, said you were only referring to civil servants.

I do not know what the Minister said; I did not see what he said.

It is reported in the papers.

I did not say "only"

I said the Minister for Lands.

What I said in my statement referred to all classes of the community, so far as the effort we intend to make to try to prevent that vicious circle or spiral arising this time goes. In the course of my remarks I referred to the workers, and those in the public services. These are the people over whom we have direct control, and who we may expect to show a good example to the rest of the country. I stated the last time I spoke here, and I repeat now that it was with no intention at all of making an attack on organised workers, that the thought of setting our faces against these increases was mentioned by me in the course of my speech introducing the Budget; that our intention was that all classes of the community should be treated alike, as far as the Government can make that possible, but that we were anxious that no class of the community should be penalised for the benefit of any one particular class. In that connection Deputy Norton asked me if the Government intended as a deliberate policy to prevent workers looking for increased wages in face of the rise in prices. We cannot, as Deputy Norton said, prevent the workers looking for increased wages in face of rising prices. Nobody can do that.

Our idea was to try, as far as we could, to prevent prices rising; at any rate, to prevent what happened the last time happening to anything like the same extent as then. If the cost of living does go up workers and others are bound to seek a rise in wages and in salaries, and I am sure others in profits. That will happen. But we have to try to see to it, as far as the Government can do so, that an undue rise in the cost of living should not come about, in so far as we can do anything to stop it, that therefore, there will not be the same case for the big rises that took place during the last war owing to the enormous increase in the cost of living, and that the same conditions will not exist this time that then caused a rise of wages, of salaries and of profits.

Deputy Norton also asked if the Government intended to honour the agreement with the Civil Service, on the cost-of-living bonus. On that matter, I should like to say that, in its efforts to reduce expenditure, the Government had to examine various matters to secure economies, some of which would affect several classes of public servants in their remuneration. The peculiar position of civil servants, whose remuneration is affected by the cost-of-living figure, naturally arose in the course of its examination by the Government. Stabilisation of the bonus is only one of many possible economies that have to be considered. It would be premature for me, at this stage, when no decision has been taken, to single out this particular item for special notice or comment. I can assure Deputy Norton that when further consideration has clarified the general position, in so far as the Civil Service may be affected, consultation with the service will take place before proceeding.

Besides the Army, one other item in the Budget came in for special notice, and that was the tax on sugar. Everybody spoke on that, everybody in the Opposition in particular, and stressed the difficulties that would arise out of it, particularly with regard to the poor. Deputy MacEoin harrowed us with an account of how the death rate would go up as a result of the failure of the people to get sugar. We have the experience of the last war, when sugar went up, at least to 1/2 per lb., and even then was very difficult to get in some places, but I do not think the medical reports from any part of the country would show that it was due to the want of sugar alone that there was any rise in the death rate. It is a necessary article of food, and it is unfortunate if it has to be taxed, but it was a tax that, if the poor had to bear their share of the burden, was a ready one, and, comparable with previous times, one that could reasonably bear a share of the taxation that had to be put on every class in the community.

But, of all who spoke against the sugar tax and criticised it, there was not one who would make a definite suggestion as to what other item we could tax. I heard this afternoon the only speech in which a suggestion was made for a substitute for sugar, and that was by Deputy Michael Óg MacPháidín, who spoke in Irish. He suggested that instead of taxing sugar we should put a tax on picture-houses. Even if we did the Deputy must know very little about the additional revenue that could be derived from picture-houses. In the first place, picture-houses are very heavily taxed at present. I was not long Minister for Finance until I got from the organised trade a protest because of the very heavy imposts on picture-houses. I am not much of a picture fan, but if there was a chance of getting money out of them, I certainly would put it up to them, if I thought it would help us over the difficulty. But it would not be a fleabite or anything like what we require.

Deputy MacEoin said that the sugar tax was bad, that the tobacco tax was worse, and the spirits tax worst of all. Neither the Deputy nor anyone else suggested where the money was to be got. It is agreed that the money is necessary. I do not think anyone who examines the situation from an impartial point of view will deny that the money we are asking for is the least that is absolutely required.

On Friday last Deputy Linehan criticised adversely the tax on sugar, rubbed it in again about the poor, and said that we were letting off the rich. The Deputy called attention to the fact that estate duty was being increased by 10 per cent., mar eadh. He said that by the 10 per cent. put on estate duty the Minister was trying to put his finger in the eyes of the public, and pretending to tax the rich. He went on: “We know that will mean nothing. What is he going to get out of that? That is simply to blindfold the public, while he is rubbing it in very hard on the poor.” Deputy Linehan ought to know better. He is, I hope, a man with a large practice, and if he is a successful lawyer, must deal with estates from time to time. Evidently he does not and has not any realisation of the money we get out of duties on estates. They gave us in the last seven years an average of £841,000 a year. Estates exceeding £10,000 gave us an average of 76.4 of the total revenue out of Estate Duty. Is not that something worth getting? That is not to be scoffed at.

It shows a great contrast in the conditions of sections of the people.

The man who scoffs does not know what he is talking about. He ought to inquire further before he gets up and makes a speech on such a subject. A professional man who, I hope, has a large practice and deals with Estate Duty ought to inquire further before he makes scathing remarks of that kind on Estate Duty and similar matters and shows his ignorance. I was disappointed to hear Deputy McGovern who, I am sorry, is not here at present, making what I thought was a very unjust attack on civil servants. That is not done in this House. Very few members have done it. They usually know better. Any man who goes into any Department of Government, no matter what Department will, from the official he sees, receive courteous, generous and kind treatment. He will go to extremes to help him. Before I became a Minister, I was in only two Departments. I happened to represent a constituency which gave me very little trouble. I was in the Old Age Pensions Department and in the Land Commission.

A Dublin Deputy in the Land Commission.

Somebody from the country wrote asking me to go to the Land Commission. That was the first and last time I was there. Before I became a Minister, I learned that officials would go to infinite pains to serve anybody.

Correct.

I think that everybody will agree that that is so. Civil servants are not here to answer for themselves and somebody has to answer for them. I hope that Deputy McGovern and other Deputies who may be tempted to criticise or attack civil servants will direct their attacks to me. I will take all I get and give back as much as I can, but the civil servants should be left out of it. They do their job well.

Deputy Fagan said that we had reduced everybody in the country to a low state. A few years ago, he said, everybody had enough to spend. I wish I had met him a few years ago. If he bad so much, I might have relieved him of portion of it. I never knew the time when I had enough to spend. I could always find good use for any money I ever had and I think that that is true of the country as a whole. Let Deputies look around and apply the test of the cinema or any other test they like. The amount spent on cinemas and on amusements of one kind or another is very considerable now if we compare it with what was spent ten years ago. If Deputies consider the attendance of people from the country at the big matches at Croke Park or the attendance at the Rugby matches at Lansdowne Road or at the Soccer matches there is no doubt that more money is being spent in this way than was spent ten or 15 years ago—a good deal more. That money has to be got somewhere. If that be any indication, there is no diminution in the means of the people. They are as well off to-day as they were at the time referred to—and better off. There is certainly more money going into their pockets in wages because there are more people at work in every part of the country.

Deputy Mulcahy quoted the figures. There are fewer agricultural workers than there were but the total number of persons in employment has increased. There is a big increase in the number of persons insured under the National Health Insurance Act.

With 40,000 on three days' work a week for two months of the year.

Even so. I wish the 100,000 registered as unemployed had even three days' work a week. We would all be much happier if they had and, please God, they will have.

And you will then use the argument that there are 100,000 additional in employment.

That is as good an indication as any other—the amount of money spent on amusement and the number insured under the National Health Insurance Act. The revenue of Cumann Naisiúnta ar Shláinte has increased and the numbers have very considerably increased. That is a sure indication that more money is going into the workers' pockets and that more money is being spent.

It is not true, as Deputy Brennan said in opening his remarks this afternoon, that the Minister took the easy road by bringing in a Supplementary Budget. It would be much easier to do what Deputy Mulcahy suggested—slide over the period and say nothing to anybody, then present a picture that would frighten a lot of people. That would not be an honest or a straight picture. He suggested that we should go ahead and spend, not knowing where the money was to come from. When we had a deficit—we say it would be £1,600,000—at the end of the year, then we were to borrow. That is not a policy that would keep the credit of this State as high as it has been kept by his Government and our own up to the present. We should not be fit to be here if we adopted that policy. If we did not come to the Dáil, tell the Dáil straight and honestly how the emergency has affected us and was likely to affect us, what steps we intended to take, and if we did not ask the Dáil to help us in meeting the financial situation with which we are faced, we should not be worthy to be where we are. If we adopted any other course the credit of this country would not be as high as it is and the loan we are looking for this year and the loans we shall be looking for later would suffer. The credit of this country has remained unimpaired. We are still a creditor country and, from that narrow financial point of view, well off. We intend to keep that credit position safe as long as we are the Government. We shall borrow for those things for which we ought to borrow and for which we can borrow with a good conscience. As for the day-to-day expenditure, we shall come to the House and straightforwardly and honestly tell it what the position is and take the consequences.

Has the Minister yet received any report from the Economy Committee in connection with relief works, and when does he propose to release it?

I think that orders have gone out during the past week.

Not to all authorities.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 50.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Fred Hugh.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George C.
  • Benson, Ernest E.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William J.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Burke, Thomas.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Jun.).
  • Cole, John J.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Hannigan, Joseph.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, John.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Smith and Seán Brady; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.

When will the Committee Stage be taken?

On Friday next.

On Friday of this week?

Ordered: That the Committee Stage be taken on Friday, 1st December.
Barr
Roinn