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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 1940

Vol. 79 No. 2

Vote 63—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £30,475 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith an bliana dar críoch and 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Puist agus Telegrafa (45 agus 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 agus 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; na hAchtanna Telegrafa, 1863 go 1928, etc.); agus Seirbhísí áirithe eile atáfe riaradh na hOifige sin.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £30,475 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1940, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; The Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928, etc.), and of certain other Services administered by that Office.

The total excess over the Estimate as approved by the Dáil amounts to £48,550, against which there are offsetting savings of £18,075, leaving a net excess of £30,475. The causes necessitating the additional provision are indicated broadly in Part III of the Supplementary Estimate under the various sub-heads affected. Of the total amount involved, approximately £8,800 is due to additional staff provision rendered necessary by growth of services, by additional work arising out of emergency conditions, by the substitution of officers on military service, etc. Revised arrangements with the railway companies in regard to the carriage of parcel mails, dating back to 1st July, 1936, involve £7,875; additional motor vehicles for mail purposes, £1,000; the provision of emergency reserve stocks of general stores, uniforms, stamps, etc. £10,200; increased prices resulting from emergency conditions, £7,100. Owing to the carrying out of the full programme of telephone capital works not being found practicable, the relief from telephone capital funds will be less than was anticipated, and this will involve a charge of, approximately, £2,600 in excess of the actual Vote provision, under sub-head K, for engineering materials.

Engineering contract work, viz., the laying of new cables to the Aran Islands and to Arranmore, County Donegal, provided for and carried out in the previous financial year, but not paid for until the current year, involves £4,700. Appropriations-in-Aid fall short of the estimated figure by about £6,000. The offsetting savings are mainly due to staff reductions in headquarters offices, to lower factory costs by reason of reduced engineering requirements; to expenditure anticipated but not incurred this year on extended accommodation for postal and engineering purposes in Dublin City; and to expenditure in respect of extra staff and equipment for civil aviation and meteorological wireless services provided for but not materialising during the year.

The Minister read his statement rather quickly. It was difficult to follow it. If I interpret it correctly, I take it that he gave the explanation which is on page 2 of the Estimate in connection with Provincial Offices. The increase in that case was due, in the main, to additional outdoor and telephonist staff; extra overtime owing to unfilled vacancies and the release of staff for military service and for work in other Departments; enhanced payments to scale payment subpostmasters mainly in respect of widows' pensions and Unemployment Orders. Will the Minister tell us how much of that is due to the release of staff for military services and whether, in view of all the circumstances, he would consider it wise to ask the Minister for Defence to leave him those men he had?

It is a peculiar situation in which we find ourselves. The cost of the Defence Vote goes up by reason of recruitment and the cost of the Minister's Department goes up by reason of some of his officials having gone over for military service. There may be excuses for both of these extra costs on the taxpayer, but the explanation we get is not as full as we are entitled to. There is a considerable sum down for the conveyance of mails by rail—it is a very considerable addition. Does it cover only a particular year or does it cover a number of years?

The strange thing is that we have those considerable sums coming in at a time when nobody has too much money, when the taxes are at their peak point and when expenses are very high and dividends in most cases are fairly low. Stores are up by £6,260 and these are apparently extra items because obviously, if the Minister had an Estimate here last year, he had an opportunity for inserting those items in it.

Did Ministers follow the number of statements that were made here by the Prime Minister and others regarding the international situation, or did they think the Prime Minister was amusing himself when he came here and described the situation as being outside the normal? Were Ministers unable to anticipate those increases in prices? There is the sum of £4,000 for the manufacture of stamps. Was that expense unavoidable, or was there delay in giving an order for stamps until prices had gone up? There is a reference here to contract work, but that deals with a matter that it is impossible to foresee. I would suggest to the Minister that when coming before the House with an Estimate in which there is a good deal of detail, he might take the opportunity of furnishing a few copies of his statement in advance. The same complaint was made to his predecessor. The Minister read his statement this evening a little faster than his predecessor used to do, but perhaps he would bear my suggestion in mind.

This Estimate makes provision for a number of matters to which I want to direct the attention of the Minister. I want to refer to the unsatisfactory position of at least one branch of his Department—the engineering branch. On the 22nd February last I addressed a question to the Minister asking him to state the number of employees in the engineering branch of his Department whose services had been dispensed with since the 1st September last. To that I received the rather surprising reply that 36 such employees had been paid off. In reply to a supplementary question, which I addressed to the Minister, he said: "As a matter of fact, these men were retained during the emergency period until we saw how we could carry on on a normal basis. Their being out of employment now is ruled entirely by the fact that we have no work for them to do." Those who know the facts of the position in the engineering branch would not believe a statement of that kind for two minutes because there is no foundation for it. There is an abundance of work in connection with the engineering branch which could be usefully undertaken in the maintenance of an efficient telephone service.

The fact of the matter is that the Minister's Department does not choose to do that work, and, consequently, 36 people have had their services terminated since the 1st September last. Let me take the Minister back to September when we had a moving appeal from the Taoiseach to private employers not to resort to the expedient of terminating the services of their employees. We also had the present Minister for Supplies making an appeal to private employers to keep on their staffs as far as possible, and not unduly to restrict their activities. Now, one would imagine that an appeal by the Taoiseach and the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Supplies, would at least induce the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to do some honour to the appeal which they made, but, instead of listening to their appeals, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs feels that their appeals have no concern for him, that he is not obliged to take any notice of them, and he then proceeds to set this very bad example to private employers by dismissing staff, although the Taoiseach had made a very strong appeal to private employers to retain their staffs, especially during the emergency period. There is, at least, one employer in the country who feels that he can disregard entirely the appeal made by the Taoiseach, and that he is perfectly free to act in any irresponsible manner he wishes in a crisis such as that through which the country is passing.

Let me deal for a few moments with the contention that there is no work for these 36 men. The Minister made that statement in the Dáil at a time when many persons want to have the telephone installed either in their business premises or private residences in Dublin. The fact is that they are not able to get the telephones installed. I understand that there are approximately 200 people in Dublin City alone at the present time who have ordered telephones, and these orders have not been supplied. I venture to say that if the position is examined in other areas it will be found that there, too, there is a lag between the date of application for a telephone and the date of fitting it in.

And yet, notwithstanding that condition of affairs, the Minister tells the House that there is no work for these 36 men to do, that there is no work in a branch of the service for which he is administratively responsible.

If we pass from that type of telephone activity to a type of activity which should be attended to with the utmost expedition, and come to another phase of the Department's work, namely, the provision of underground cables, here again, as the Minister's staff can tell him, there is an inadequacy of these cables at the present time which results in a loss of revenue to the Department because of the inability to give services in areas where there is a shortage of telephone cables. The position in the city area in this respect is extremely bad, as the staff in the Minister's Department know only too well. In certain areas, such as Inchicore, Cabra and Marino, as well as in the greater Dublin area, there is the need for a greater number of additional cables. At present the cables are in many cases giving very considerable trouble. That is due to the fact that sufficient attention is not being paid to maintaining the cables in a state of efficiency. There is a 1,000 pair cable running from Crown Alley to O'Connell Street, and the Minister should make some inquiries to ascertain the number of faults which have revealed themselves on that particular cable, as well as the vexatious annoyance caused to persons whose service comes through that defective cable.

Passing from underground defects and the shortage of underground cables to overhead work, here again we find that the Post Office Department does not apparently regard it as a serious part of its functions to maintain the overhead wires and poles in an up-to-date state of efficiency. In Dublin City and suburbs there has been no effective maintenance carried on for a number of years.

There are defects in many of the poles, loose nuts, loose bolts, and sometimes loose wires. Apparently that condition of affairs is allowed to drag on, with deleterious effects on the efficiency of the telephone service. I think the Minister knows that many of the distributing poles in the city are extremely defective and react on the efficiency of the service. Some of them are positively dangerous. There is a distributing pole in Tara Street which has been officially condemned as being dangerous. The men object to climbing the pole owing to its dangerous condition. Yet it continues to serve in some kind of fashion. It will probably be replaced if someone's life is lost as a result of the defect in the pole. Passing to the condition of the Wicklow trunk route, if the Minister inquires from the engineering department I think he will find that the position is anything but satisfactory, that faults are of frequent occurrence, and that a staff should be employed to overhaul it. Apparently, the Post Office authorities are content when faults show themselves to do patchwork, instead of making the service satisfactory on that route. Faults in subscribers' lines in the Dublin area have been particularly bad in the last 12 months, and were viciously bad during the recent wet weather.

If the Minister was a linesman, and had to call on some of the irritated subscribers who complain of faults, he would recognise that there is work to be done in the engineering branch, and that there was an insufficiency of staff for proper maintenance work. Even in the Ship Street exchange the Minister might inquire if the staff is adequate according to the Department's standard of what is normally required. In face of these facts, which I am prepared to prove if the Minister would only initiate an inquiry into the working of the engineering branch, I cannot understand the allegation that there is no work to be done in that branch. My remarks are about Dublin, but a similar condition of affairs could be shown to exist in other places. How, in the face of that situation, the Minister could contend that there is no work which would justify the retention of the 36 men members of the engineering staff I referred to completely baffles my comprehension.

If he looks at the accounts the Minister will realise that the telephones are a profitable service and have yielded a substantial surplus for many years. Accordingly, the least the public is entitled to is an efficient telephone service. That cannot be secured if the Minister continues to dispense with staff while there is so much repair and maintenance work to be done. An insufficient staff means an inefficient service. The Minister should realise that when this service is yielding a substantial surplus it can best be encouraged to continue doing so by maintaining it in a high state of efficiency. At present the Department appears to be content to allow the necessary maintenance work to be put on the long finger; no serious attention being paid to the necessity for systematic maintenance and repair work over the entire service. I cannot accept the contention of the Minister that there is no work available in the engineering branch. If he makes inquiry he will find that there is much more work in that branch than the 36 ex-employees could possibly do.

Having brought these facts to the notice of the Minister, I hope he will make some inquiry into the manner in which the engineering branch is staffed, at a time when maintenance and repair work is put on the long finger and neglected, and take steps to provide an efficient telephone service, as well as obviating the necessity for the harassing tactics that prevail. If an inquiry of that kind is undertaken the Minister will find that there is scope for considerable improvement in that branch of the service, and that a solution of that problem will add to the efficiency of the service. At this stage I hope the Minister will undertake to take back those whose services were dispensed with. There seems to me to have been downright disregard of the Taoiseach's appeal, and an irresponsible attitude from that which might be expected from a public department, when 36 persons were paid off in a crisis period, with apparently very little consideration for their sufferings, and very little regard for necessary work that should be put in hand.

Like other Supplementary Estimates that this House has been faced with for the past fortnight, one is inclined to ask if every Government Department and every Minister deliberately underestimated last year? Supplementary Estimates have been introduced in respect of every Department. I am inclined to believe that there was deliberate underestimation last year in order to make the Budget position look far better than it was. Possibly Ministers thought that it would be a much better idea to make the Budget position look as well as possible and to wait until the tail-end of the financial year to ask for more money. This is quite a substantial sum, £34,475. If one was to believe the old proverb that the last straw breaks the camel's back one might say that this breaks the taxpayer's back. This is quite a substantial burden. Deputy Norton mentioned that in the Department of Posts people had been put out of employment because their services were not required, but I notice that under sub-head A (3) extra money is required because people had to be paid overtime on account of unfilled vacancies. I wonder if these unfilled vacancies were of a highly technical character?

Would it be possible that the vacancies could have been filled by the recruitment of unemployed people? There is a note also about the release of staff for military services and for work in other Departments. Does that mean that employees of the Post Office were called up as reservists on the mobilisation of the Volunteers and that the Post Office lost their services and had to get other people to do their work? Could the Minister say into what other Departments officials of the Post Office were taken during that period? Sub-head E (1) deals with the conveyance of mails by rail, and when Deputy Cosgrave asked if this item arose during the present financial year the Minister shook his head.

For three years.

Does that mean that the Department has this year to pay an excess sum for the conveyance of mails over and above what they should have paid during the last three years? Is not the carriage of mails by rail a contract job? Was not a contract entered into at the beginning of each financial year for the last three years?

If it is a contract job could not the Minister tell at the beginning of the financial year what the amount would be? Has the Department gone back on other years and had to pay extra money?

If any business, trade or profession was carried on by such a system, after having a contract job, and if it was suddenly decided to pay more than was in the bargain, it would be hard to run it profitably.

There was a continuing dispute here.

If there was a continuing dispute with a Department then the outsider always wins. I do not suppose any Minister in the present Government has ever succeeded in getting a reduction for the taxpayers. That would be too optimistic to hope for. There is another item of £6,260 for stores. Is it the Minister's explanation for that item that the Department is looking ahead and getting reserve stocks?

Yes. They are costing a little more.

I understand that. Could the Minister say if the Department looked a little bit ahead twelve or nine months ago and put a little on one side when they would not have cost so much?

And foresaw the war?

The Government's only defence to every Supplementary Estimate for the last fortnight is that they were incapable of foreseeing the war.

This Vote has been introduced by one Minister.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, in agreement with every other Minister——

The Deputy should not try to evade the ruling of the Chair.

The Minister and his predecessor in office were so asleep to the general situation, which was obvious to everyone, that sooner or later something was going to break loose, that they did not anticipate the war.

We were not justified in paying out the taxpayers' money until the occasion arose.

The Minister was not justified in paying out the taxpayers' money until he walked into a position in which the money had to be spent sometime when it would cost the taxpayer far more. Would it not have been far better if the Minister and his Department took their courage in their hands and laid in stocks at normal prices which could have been utilised normally after a certain length of time, rather than wait until the stocks cost far more? The same thing possibly applies to clothing. The Minister would find it impossible, in the eyes of any taxpayer, to justify coming along here within three weeks of the end of the financial year looking for £30,475 extra. If this sort of thing goes on, and we are to have a Budget at the beginning of every financial year, and towards the end of the financial year we are going to be presented with Supplementary Estimates like these, possibly it may develop into the ordinary Governmental practice, because I am sure that as time goes on the Minister will be quite capable of finding some other explanation next year rather than the war conditions. What I object to is that the war is no explanation for these increased Estimates. I say that the Minister responsible for the Department last year under-estimated and that that under-estimation was to make a bad Budget position better than it really was; that the Minister believes that it is easier to delude the taxpayer by asking for money in dribs and drabs, of which the total amount is very large, rather than face the taxpayer with the correct figure in the Budget statement. It is quite possible that these are very good tactics on the part of the Ministry, because I can imagine that the shock to the taxpayer if the amounts which are now being voted were added to the Budget statement last year would be far greater than the shock he feels when they are introduced step after step over a period of two or three weeks, and carried piecemeal as they are now.

I believe that this House will have to wake up and tell the Government plainly that if they want money to carry on services they will have to do their estimating properly. There is no good in telling the House that it is because a war has taken place which they could not foresee. The House will have to tell the Minister and the Government that if they want money to carry on the essential services they will have to ask for it at the beginning of the financial year; that they will have to estimate properly and not be deluding the House and the public by bringing in Supplementary Estimates.

In the meantime, the Deputy might study Standing Order 108.

I was pleased that Deputy Norton brought to the notice of the Minister the question of the engineering service. I certainly think that the service given to the people down the country is disgraceful. No attention whatever is given to the telegraph or telephone service, particularly the telegraph service. If we have a few nights' frost, as we had at Christmas, the whole country is cut off. Nothing is thought about the people who are finding the money. In the town of Athenry, for instance, a building was being constructed which was started about last March. In February last year the postal authorities were notified what the height of the house was to be. They were also notified as to the height of their wires there, and that the existing wires and poles would not allow that particular house to be built according to plan or specification if they were left as they were. I brought that matter to the notice of the authorities last March. That house was roofed before an attempt was made to change the wires. After it was roofed the matter was again brought to their attention. When it was first brought to their attention, the answer was that it was difficult to get a pole long enough. When the house was roofed, we were informed that if we interfered with the wires we would be responsible.

Several batches of inspectors came down from Dublin and Athlone in motor cars. One batch of inspectors politely told me that there should be a law under which a three-storey house could not be built in a town of 1,200 population. The next thing was that we had a staff of men putting up temporary wires. I would ask the Minister to inquire how many of these wires fell down during the frost last Christmas. It was only during the last two months that permanent wires were put up. I know a little bit about wiring, and I say that these wires will be down again within a very short time. From what I could see of the wires, they were all secondhand. It is not fair that people who are paying for a service have to go to all that expense. Everyone of the inspectors will tell you that it was all owing to the war; that they could not get a pole long enough, and that they could not get new wire, although they were notified of this last March.

When the people are paying for a service like that they should get a service. As far as I know, it will be some time before the Minister gets back the 36 men whose services were dispensed with, because they are in a much better job now. It would be much better to keep on experienced men at this work rather than dispensing with them, and probably bringing in some prominent members of Fianna Fáil clubs to take their place. That is what will happen. It is happening every day.

As to the telephone service, I know a town in the West where there is a telephone exchange with a full-time telephonist. That girl has to keep winding a handle from 10 o'clock in the morning, doing eight hours. It reminds me of the "hurdy-gurdies" we used to see on the streets. That is the kind of exchange we have there. Is that becoming modern or giving a proper service to the people who are paying for it? I say it is not. The Minister has enough of inspectors going around the country, and it is time for them to settle down to the work and give the people the service for which they are paying.

I should like to know if all these extras arise directly out of the war. The first one is salaries, wages and allowances, and there is an increase of £6,000. I should like to know if that is to go to the badly paid officials in the postal service. I think it is a disgrace to the public service that many hard-working junior officials in the postal services should be under-paid. I would willingly support the voting of this £6,000 if it were given to these officials. But, as was perhaps somewhat obliquely suggested by Deputy Brodrick, if it is to send one inspector after another to inspect a job in the West, the sooner it is stopped the better.

In saying that, I think there has been an improvement in the postal service but there is a lot of room for still more improvement. I have been in trouble with the telephone service this past week but that was different from my experience over a long time and perhaps I should not mention it here. I have heard people complain of the delays when they apply for the installation of a telephone. The Minister should realise that in addition to administering the office he has certain commodities to sell. The telephone is one of them. If he wants to sell it, he should be as quick about effecting a sale as any shopkeeper in this city would be if an inquirer went in to order any commodity. But I am afraid that the machinery of the Post Office is not quite so efficient as that. I had an acquaintance with the Engineering side of the Post Office over 30 years ago and I know the spirit that then animated the Engineering Department in London. The Engineering Department we have here now is run by the man who was in the Chief Office in London 30 years ago, and I am sure if he gets the facilities he needs he will do the work quickly.

I hope when replying the Minister will refer to what Deputy Brodrick said on the matter of second-hand wires. Sometimes it happens in the Post Office that wires are re-covered and put into stock—that is when they are fit for use again. I would not criticise adversely the use of second-hand wires if those second-hand wires were fit to be used again. If not fit it would be a terrible waste to instal them a second time, that is unless they had a fairly lengthy period of life before them. There is an item here of £30,000 for stores. Is that because of under-estimation or has it been caused by an increase in the cost of stores consequent on the war scarcity?

Yes, war scarcity.

I know that in my business if I had enough money to buy in stores I would not be paying extra prices now for what I wanted. Personally, I may have to do it, because though at the time I foresaw an increase in the price I did not have enough money at my command to buy in stocks to cover a year ahead. But surely the Government is in a different position from the small business men. Was it not a very natural thing with the machinery at the Minister's command, to circularise with the usual official circular and specify the stores that would be required up to a reasonable date in the future? Then, with that information, he could go into the market and buy. For the last year the international situation looked awkward enough. After Munich, war was on the horizon, and a good deal of stores had to go into the offices of the engineering department. Was it not ordinary business prudence to anticipate the future at least in this last year? I would not put it further than the end of the financial year. That is what this additional Estimate is for—to finish this financial year. I would like the Minister to explain why he did not have a survey taken of the stocks he had, and then get sufficient to carry him through so that he could buy before the market went up. He is now asking the taxpayer to contribute £30,000, not for additional stores or additional work, but for the increase in the price of stores for which the Minister had already estimated for this year. He could have got these stores at the old estimated price and saved this money now to the taxpayers. On the general Estimate it would, perhaps, be more appropriate to talk about the services generally, particularly stamps and telegrams, and that kind of thing. I hope the Minister will talk about and help what so many are talking about off platforms—the ending of Partition. The Post Office can help at that by their postal service here.

That is a matter for the main Estimate.

I agree. I hope the Minister will think about that before we confront him on the main Estimate.

There is one item here under the head of "Provincial Offices," £2,620 which is required as an additional sum. The details state that this is "due in the main to additional outdoor and telephonist staff; extra overtime owing to unfilled vacancies; enhanced payments to scale payment sub-postmasters, mainly in respect of widows' pensions and unemployment orders." We hear a good deal about under-paid workers in the postal service. It comes, I think, without challenge that the sub-postmasters in the service are certainly scandalously under-paid. I have had complaints from people not only in my own constituency but in other parts of the country regarding the wages they receive. Hundreds of them are paid less than 10/- a week. The sub-postmaster fulfills a very important function in the postal service, and he deserves something better than the wage meted out to him. What portion of that £2,620 is being allotted to sub-postmasters? I would like also to ask if the recruitment of the temporary staff in the Post Office has been solely through the labour exchange? I have received complaints from Cork City that certain appointments have not been made through the employment exchanges, but that political reasons are being brought into play. I would like to get from the Minister the assurance that the temporary staff will in future be recruited through the employment exchanges. I should like to get from the Minister some assurance that the emoluments, pay and conditions of service of these people will have some consideration, because, I understand, they work very long hours. When the main Estimate is brought forward, I hope that the Minister will elaborate a little more on this point, and that we shall have some definite announcement that that condition of affairs will be ended.

The thing that impressed me about the Engineering Department of the Post Office was the amount of foresight displayed by those concerned in the present situation. They have supplies of some commodities which will carry them on for two or three years. They had laid in reserves of materials in connection with automatic telephones and cables. They got these at the normal price and they spent about £90,000. They could not foresee all the possibilities and a line had to be drawn by the Department somewhere as regards increase of expenditure over what had been estimated. I think that those concerned did extremely well in having laid in a considerable amount of stores at normal prices. They had to consider whether or not they would wait in the event of prices coming down. The increase in the amount and price of clothing was due to unexpected supplies for the Army. The question was whether it was better to buy at the time in case prices should rise further or wait in case prices would come down. Nobody here can say whether or not prices will rise further. I was greatly impressed by the extraordinary care taken in all these matters and by the judgment exercised.

Anybody can find fault with the telegraph and telephone system, because there will always be a certain number of little mistakes and accidents. If we were to comply with the demands of Deputy Norton and have a perfect system, we should have to spend twice as much money as we are spending at present. Deputy Cosgrave asked me about the number of persons who went across to military service. We have not a record of the number of officers who went on military service apart from those who went to other Departments. The total number within this category is considerable. In order to economise as far as possible, we did not fill these positions. These officers went to the Department of Supplies and the Department of Co-ordination while others went into military service. Instead of increasing the cost by filling the posts, the remaining officers have had to work harder and, at times, to work overtime. That is the explanation of the increase.

Deputy Norton attacked me fairly vigorously on the question of the dismissal of 36 men. He contended that maintenance was in arrear, and mentioned that telephones were in arrear to the number of 200. That is, roughly, the normal number. Demands for telephones come in at the rate of 70 per week, and three weeks is about the normal time for the installation of telephones. That would give the number 200. So far as ordinary telephones are concerned, there is no delay. With regard to the cable and underground telephones, what are required are jointers. That is a skilled type of work, and we are short of that class of labour. However, we are training men as rapidly as possible. Those who were dismissed were unskilled labourers. Some two years ago, owing to the increased demand for telephones, this staff was increased considerably by recruitment from the unskilled classes. An attempt was made to train these men and to turn them into skilled men so far as that could be done. It was only about May last that it was decided that work was decreasing and that we would have to drop a certain of men, having regard to the necessity for economy and to the fact that work was not available. They were getting back to what you might call "normal development." And we had to drop the men who had proved least adaptable so far as the mastery of the skilled work was concerned. They delayed in doing that, making work, so far as possible, until September. Between September and December, when we had a discussion about the matter, we decided that owing to lack of employment and the general position of uncertainty, we would do our best to keep the men until January. I was very gratified that work was found to keep them on until January. In January it became imperative to dispense with them, as no work was available. We had to drop 36 men, and we may have to drop more, but I hope we shall not. We are doing our best to carry on without decreasing our numbers.

As to maintenance, I should like to mention that there is no justification for any suggestion that maintenance in the engineering plant of the Post Office is being neglected because of lack of men employed on the work. The figures which I propose to give will be of interest. In the financial year which is just concluding, approximately £60,000 is being paid in wages for engineering and maintenance, as compared with £40,000 paid a few years ago. The number of men engaged on maintenance work increased since September by approximately 15. The great difficulty as regards maintenance of the engineering plant is to get the right type of man and to give him the necessary training to deal satisfactorily with the very varied and complex plant now in use—plant that calls for higher qualities in the maintenance staff than did the older type of plant which it displaced. I do not think it is wise for Deputy Norton to suggest that we are not trying to do the best we can from the point of view of employing the most people we can, because some evilminded employers will get hold of his misrepresentations and make them an excuse for doing something entirely contrary to the present public policy. I think he knows that we are genuinely interested in dealing with the unemployment problem, and that, having regard to the engineering necessities and the public finance, we have done the very best we can.

As regards the conveyance of mails, what happened in that case was that we reduced our rates on parcels travelling by railway. On 1st July, 1936, the rates of postage on parcels within Éire were reduced, and those for places in Great Britain and Northern Ireland remained unchanged. The reduction of the rates adversely affected the remuneration of the railway companies, who were paid for the carriage of parcels on the basis of 40 per cent. of the postage. The companies approached the Department for an increase to 45 per cent. as from 1st July, 1936, and for a further increase as from 1st January, 1938, from which date the Railway Tribunal had authorised the addition of 5 per cent. to the charges on all traffic conveyed by rail. As a result of negotiations, a settlement on the following basis was arrived at, and was approved by the Department of Finance on the 11th March, 1939: The companies' claims both in respect of reduction of postage rates and of the addition to the railway rates authorised by the Railway Tribunal, were merged and modified.

The modification provided that the companies be guaranteed the remuneration they received during the year ended 31st December, 1935, so long as the rail-borne parcels post traffic actually carried, calculated at the postage rates in force in the year 1936, justifies such payment. The arrangement will remain in force until January, 1942, or, if such happens earlier, until 40 per cent. of the postage on rail-borne parcels at the new rates of postage produces the guaranteed figure. The total amount was £7,320, and that covered all the internal and inter-State and foreign rail-borne parcels.

As to Deputy Brodrick's remarks about the Athenry wires over a high house, I have no knowledge of this, and I can only have inquiries made into it. He refers also to the use of second-hand wires. Of course, there are times when these wires are quite good. The engineers are the best judges as to the life of wires, and when they are taken down in one place they may be quite all right for use in another place. If we are to go in for a very extravagant system of supply, we can waste the taxpayers' money and throw away a good deal of very valuable material. The fact that wires have been used before is no reason, having regard to expert opinion on them, why they should not be used again.

As regards the sub-postmasters not being sufficiently paid, the sum set out in the Estimate is due to not having anticipated the number of widows' and orphans pensions. They are paid for the number of transactions per unit. The sub-postmasters are in the position of part-time officers. It should not be supposed that they are being paid a full-time salary for their work. If I may judge from my short experience of the number of demands and the energy with which the demands are made by people in the country to become sub-postmasters, I do not think that they believe they are getting a starvation salary.

The Minister mentioned that there was a greater sum of money being spent on maintenance. He must know that the telephone department is extending. The number of calls last year was substantially higher than the number two, three or four years ago. Calls have multiplied enormously, and installations have multiplied enormously, and that necessarily carries increased maintenance. My point was that the maintenance work carried on was not nearly adequate to the requirements of the service. I said they were sub-normal, having regard to the extent of the service. I mentioned that there were 200 applications on hands for telephones, and the Minister said that was a normal aggregation for three weeks' demands. Does he suggest that there are applications on hands for no longer than three weeks?

The applications on hands have relation to cases where we have not enough men to do the jointing of the cables, and these cases are delayed somewhat longer than is usual.

When a person makes an application for a telephone, is it dealt with in the order of priority? A case has been drawn to my attention where a man wanted a telephone and another man who made a later application was dealt with first. Are these applications dealt with in the order of priority?

I certainly say they should be dealt with in the order of priority, but if Deputy Norton came to me and asked me to instal a telephone for him, I believe I would be tempted to give way to him.

Supposing everyone comes to you, what would be the result?

I could not do it then.

I approached the Minister already with regard to an extension of the telephone service at night-time in Cavan and we have not got any further in that connection. At Clones, in the adjoining county of Monaghan, they have a night telephone. Cavan is a county town and an assize town and I think it should have equal amenities in this respect. I wish the Minister would agree to giving us a longer service; better facilities in regard to the telephone during the night hours. We have heard of the large number of telephone installed. Surely if all those have been or are being installed the Post Office could well afford to give us an extension of time in Cavan? The telephone is closed down at eight o'clock at night. That is scarcely fair in the case of a large town like Cavan.

With the present stringency of finance, it is very difficult to deal with demands for night telephones. You would have to justify that case on the basis of the number of users who require night telephone calls. We are experimenting at the moment with a new system of semiautomatic telephones and if that is successful perhaps later on we may be able to develop it for Cavan. With the present financial stringency it is very difficult to carry out that kind of work. I am afraid that for the present we will have to disappoint Deputy Cole, and I am very sorry to have to do so.

I mentioned a matter about the recruitment of the temporary staff solely from the employment exchanges. Could the Minister give me any information on that point?

As regards the recruitment of a temporary staff, I think it is done through the labour exchange.

Yes, it must go through the labour exchanges.

Vote agreed to. Progress reported; the Committee to sit again to-morrow.

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