Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Apr 1940

Vol. 79 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 61—Posts and Telegraphs.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Little)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,610,435 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Puist agus Telegrafa (45 agus 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 agus 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; na hAchtanna Telegrafa, 1863 go 1928, etc.); agus Sheirbhísí áirithe eile atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin.

That a sum not exceeding £1,610,435 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928, etc.); and of certain other Services administered by that Office.

The net Post Office expenditure for the year 1940-41 is estimated at £2,487,435, being an increase of £81,890 on the Estimate for 1939-40. The gross increase is approximately £112,000, of which the main items are:—£53,500 in respect of higher cost of living figure; £26,000 for increases in the prices of commodities; £14,800 for additional civil aviation and meteorological wireless services; £7,400 in respect of repayments of further moneys advanced under the Telephone Capital Acts; £8,600 increased provision for superannuation; the balance being due to incremental increases on salaries, etc. There are offsetting reductions under the heads of railway and air mail conveyance; cost of non-engineering stores; engineering contract work, etc.; also savings in respect of an extra pay day included in 1939-40 but not arising in the current year. These reductions, together with additional receipts from Appropriations-in-Aid, make the estimated net increase in expenditure for the year £81,890. Of this increase, as already stated, £53,500 is due to higher cost of living figure.

The total provision includes a sum of £18,188 in respect of staff on loan to other services, mainly those arising out of the emergency.

At the outset I desire to indicate the financial position of the Department as ascertained from the commercial accounts for the year 1938-39, the latest period for which completed figures are available:—

Postal services: Revenue, £1,736,250; Expenditure, £1,619,742; Surplus, £116,508.

Telephoneservices: Revenue, £552,683; Expenditure, £486,931; Surplus, £65,752.

Telegraph services: Revenue, £186,345; Expenditure, £315,977; Deficit, £129,632.

It will be seen that the postal and telephone services combined showed, at the end of the year 1938-39, a surplus of £182,260, and the telegraph service a deficit of £129,632, leaving a net surplus on the three services of £52,628. Although revenue for the year was greater by, approximately, £81,000 than for 1937-38, the surplus dropped by about £41,000. The drop in surplus in 1938-39 was mainly due to higher cost of living figure, to increased expenditure on mail conveyance, to the development of air services, and to advances in the prices of stores.

While I am not yet in a position to furnish precise figures of revenue and expenditure for the financial year which has just concluded, so far as can be judged, the surplus of £52,000 odd which existed at the end of March, 1939, had at the end of last month been converted into a deficit of, roughly, £30,000. And this despite the fact that revenue for 1939-40 was approximately £30,000 greater than in the previous year. The explanation is that the growth in revenue was more than counterbalanced by increased cost of living bonus; of additional staff to meet growth of services; of mail conveyance; by increased prices of stores, and by special provision of general and engineering stores rendered necessary by emergency conditions.

The Post Office services being the main channels of communication with places outside the State, it might naturally be expected that the business of the Department would have been adversely affected in material degree by the international situation. Such has, however, not been the case. Letter and parcel traffic keeps well up to normal; the postal order, money order and savings bank business transacted last year was even above the level of the previous year; while the number of telephone calls increased by over 3,000,000. Even telegrams, an ordinarily declining service, were up by over 20,000. I have already referred to the increase of £30,000 in revenue during the year. The general inference to be drawn from these very satisfactory figures of Post Office activities must, I think, be that the business and industry of the country are, notwithstanding the disturbed international position, in a very healthy condition. So far as the Department is concerned, I see no reason to apprehend any adverse change in the situation during the coming year, although the limitation of the activities of Irish Hospitals Trust, Ltd., a valuable contributor to Post Office revenue, will no doubt have its effects. On the whole, however, I am optimistic that this year existing revenue will be at least maintained.

The main effect of the present European war upon the Irish Post Office has been a slowing down of the external mail services, principally those to and from the more distant countries. As regards the services with Great Britain, the day packet between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead has been discontinued, and the Rosslare and Fishguard boat now runs on only three nights a week. While, however, a certain amount of delay to correspondence occurs by reason of the restricted services, it cannot be regarded as particularly serious. The inward night packet from Holyhead has, however, been running very irregularly, and this has involved failure of connection with the day mail trains to the provinces, delay to the second delivery in the Dublin central districts, and the postponement of the second delivery in the Dublin suburban districts until the afternoon in order to avoid considerable expense for overtime which would otherwise have been necessary. I am glad to say, however, that recently the running of the night packet has tended to become more regular, and this has enabled special arrangements to be introduced during the past few days for improving the position of the suburban areas. If the present running is maintained, it is hoped that it will be practicable to commence the suburban deliveries between 10.15 a.m. and 10.30 a.m. from this onwards, but whether this can be attained in practice will, of course, depend upon the future running of the boat. It will be appreciated that in present circumstances it is not practicable for my Department to control effectively the cross-Channel working.

In regard to the foreign services, despatches and arrivals of American mails via Cobh have had to be suspended owing to the cessation of calls by mail steamers at that port; direct communication with certain belligerent countries is no longer feasible and mails for them have had to be diverted from their ordinary routes; the system under which first class mail matter for various countries abroad (Australia, South Africa, etc.) was conveyed by air, as the normal means of transmission without special air fee, has been suspended, although air services to the countries concerned are still available at special air rates. In general, foreign mails, outgoing and incoming, are at present suffering considerable delay in transmission and this unfortunately is not avoidable. Notwithstanding the adverse conditions, however, the volume of foreign postal traffic is fairly well maintained.

An interesting feature of air mail service development during 1939 was the inauguration, in June last, by Pan-American Airways, of the direct Trans-atlantic air mail between the Shannon Airport, Newfoundland, Canada and the United States. This service, which was supplemented in August by flying boats of Imperial Airways, was maintained for mails and passengers until September, when the season's flying operations came to an end. For a time there were two services a week in each direction. A considerable amount of correspondence was conveyed, but a good deal of this was, of course, philatelic. It is anticipated that the service on the North Atlantic route will be resumed in May or June of this year for, it is understood, the conveyance of mails only.

In relation to the question of the use of air services for purposes of mail conveyance, I may mention that discussions were taking place last year with the British Administration regarding the feasibility of substituting air for surface conveyance between Eire and Great Britain on the termination of the existing contract with the London, Midland and Scottish Company for the service between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead. The outbreak of the war, however, brought the discussions temporarily to an end.

The experimental suspension of postal delivery on Christmas Day was repeated last year, and I am now considering the question of making the arrangement a permanent one. While of material benefit to staffs affected, it has I think no disadvantages for the public, certainly none of particular importance. I desire to express my thanks for the splendid response to requests for early posting and also for the valuable assistance rendered by passenger-carrying companies in drawing public attention to the matter by the display of relative official notices.

The Foreign Money Order Services are still maintained though with some restrictions. Owing to exchange difficulties the service with Germany has been suspended by mutual agreement.

The Telephone Service continues to develop steadily. The revenue for 1938-39 amounted to £552,683, an increase of £41,628 on the total for the previous year. The revenue for last year continued to grow. The increase in telephone revenue is, in fact, wholly responsible for the growth in general revenue last year to which I have already referred. Expenditure on telephones is, however, growing by reason of increasing operating and maintenance costs.

The Telephone Capital Act of 1928 authorised borrowing up to a further £1,000,000 for development purposes, which brings the total amount provided by the State for telephone development since 1922 up to £2,725,000. Approximately £166,500 was spent on development in the last financial year, £135,000 of which was in respect of exchange equipment, additional trunks, underground works, and subscribers' circuits. The balance was for the provision of emergency stocks of "carrier" equipment and engineering stores. The number of telephone exchanges at the end of 1939 was 808, and of public call offices 1,492, including 159 street kiosks. Ten new exchanges and 20 call offices, including 18 kiosks, were opened last year. The number of subscribers' exchange lines increased by 1,180 to a total of 27,304, and the number of telephones in use by 1,739 to 44,260.

The number of local telephone calls in 1939 was 33,616,200, an increase of 2,759,700, and the number of trunk calls increased by 285,350, to a total of 3,791,150. The number of cross-Channel calls was 483,500, an increase of 84,250. There are at present 16 cross-Channel circuits in service, but it is expected that 12 additional circuits will be available before the end of the current year. Fifty-two additional internal trunks were provided last year, of which six were "carrier". These carrier circuits are of high efficiency, ensuring first-class speech transmission on long distance routes. There are now 50 such circuits in service and additions are planned for the coming year. A good deal has also been done in the way of improvement in the transmission efficiency of minor circuits throughout the country.

Mr. Corish

What is a "carrier" circuit?

Mr. Little

I shall tell the Deputy afterwards. A new automatic exchange was opened in Dun Laoghaire some months ago, and the change over of all subscribers' circuits in the old Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, Dalkey and Foxrock manual exchange areas was recently completed. The number of subscribers affected was 2,300, and the number of automatic telephones now in use in the Dublin and Dun Laoghaire areas is approximately 24,000. Calls between Dublin and Dun Laoghaire numbers are now "first area" local calls chargeable at 1d. Previously calls between Dun Laoghaire and Dublin cost 2d., and between Dalkey and Dublin 3d.

Plans for the adaptation of the premises in Exchequer Street, Dublin, acquired last year for use as a new trunk exchange are in hand, and the contract for the equipment, which will be of the most up-to-date type, has been placed. It is hoped that the new exchange will be completed within the next two years. It is intended that, later, an additional trunk exchange, linked with Exchequer Street, shall be provided in St. Andrew Street, and that ultimately the trunks shall be wholly removed from Crown Alley, which will then function solely as an automatic exchange.

The programme of telephone development works for the current year also includes, as well as the usual provision for new subscribers' circuits, provision for the building work necessary for a new automatic exchange for Cork; for an extension of the equipment at Clontarf automatic exchange; for underground works in Dublin and district to meet growth of the system; for additional circuits in the cross-Channel cables and for further "carrier" circuits, additional overhead trunks, etc. The cost of the programme will run to about £297,000. In connection with the works contemplated I should say that the Government are particularly anxious that telephone development shall proceed as far as possible on normal lines with, of course, due regard to increase in prices, not merely for the purpose of providing the public with an adequate and efficient service, but also in order that sufficient work will be available to keep construction and maintenance staff in employment. To what extent the Government's desire in this connection will be capable of realisation in practice will, however, depend largely on two factors; first the future demands from the public for service and, secondly the continued availability of the requisite engineering supplies. So far, public demands are keeping up remarkably well, and I see nothing at present to suggest that there is likely to be any marked change in this position. In regard to supplies of materials, etc., the position is that the bulk of the plant and apparatus used for engineering purposes is made outside Eire and during recent years much of it was purchased on the basis of world-wide competition.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Little

The closing up of Continental sources of supply has, naturally, materially affected matters, but notwithstanding this, the position remains reasonably satisfactory, although heavy increases in costs have taken place. Further, as a result of more stringent restrictions on the export of raw materials, manufacturers in Great Britain are in many cases reluctant to submit quotations for our requirements. In cases of difficulty the Department of Supplies is consulted. Generally speaking, however, it is probably safe to say that stocks now on hands are likely to prove adequate for requirements during the coming year, but it will, of course, be necessary to keep a close watch on the situation as replenishments may not be readily procurable or, even if they are, only at seriously enhanced prices. While, therefore, I propose to proceed with telephone development as far as possible on normal lines, the factors I have mentioned will have a very important bearing on the extent to which this will, in practice, be feasible.

On account, particularly, of the uncertainty as to replenishments of pole supplies it has been necessary, until the future position becomes clearer, to impose restriction on the provision of subscribers' circuits involving long pole routes. I hope that it may be possible to relax this restriction later.

In regard to the standard of the trunk service, I am glad to say that, on the whole, it is particularly good, both as regards speed of connection and quality of speech transmission. Complaints are rare. There is, however, one area, namely Sligo and districts served by Sligo—County Donegal, etc.—in which delay on calls to and from Dublin does occur during the busier periods. The reason for this is that, although there are at present three "carrier" circuits between Sligo and Dublin, they are insufficient to carry the traffic arising. The position is in course of rectification, and the delivery of additional "carrier" equipment, which will provide three extra high-grade channels between Dublin and Sligo and three additional channels—also "carrier"—between Sligo and Lifford, is at present awaited. It is hoped that it will be possible to have the new equipment installed in the near future.

The local telephone service is also good. In Dublin the automatic service is of a high standard. Minor technical faults in the complex automatic equipment and underground cable faults are from time to time inevitable, but their incidence is extremely low in relation to the large number of subscribers' circuits involved and the volume of traffic carried. Considerable trouble arose during the abnormal weather conditions in the early portion of the year, and particularly during the subsequent thaw, but matters were put right with the utmost possible expedition. I should add that the increase in the skilled workman force shown under sub-head I (1), is for the purpose of still further improving fault-clearing arrangements and the supervision of gangs employed on outdoor construction work, and also to cover increased maintenance requirements.

In regard to the system of rural automatics which has been installed experimentally in the exchange areas of Malahide, Donabate, Rush, etc., it was mentioned in connection with last year's Estimates that an extension of the experiment was contemplated. Unfortunately, the emergency and the conditions arising therefrom have so far rendered further semi-auto installations impracticable, but efforts will be made in the coming year to do what is possible in this respect. It is felt, however, that in present circumstances progress must be slow.

There is little to say regarding the telegraph service, except that its financial position continues to be unsatisfactory. The loss in 1938-39 amounted to £129,632, or £7,812 in excess of the loss in 1937-38, and the position did not improve in 1939-40. The fact is that, while the telegraph service is, and will probably long continue to be, a vital necessity where the traffic for transmission is heavy, it must, I fear, be recognised that, with the development of the telephone, the telegraphs will inevitably tend to decline. Unfortunately, however, declining traffic will not be accompanied by correspondingly reduced costs. So long as the traffic continues on any reasonable proportions, staff for its proper disposal must be maintained as well as an elaborate and expensive system of lines and apparatus, so that no probability whatsoever is seen of any material improvement in the existing financial condition of the telegraphs.

A scheme for the establishment of communication with 11 of the larger islands off the Western coast, not already provided with service, has been approved by the Government, and provision for the necessary expenditure is included in the Estimate. Service will be afforded by cable or by wireless, according to the circumstances in each case. The requisite equipment is on order, and it is hoped that the scheme, or the greater portion of it, will be completed during the coming summer. As to this, however, much will depend upon due delivery of the equipment.

The position of the Savings Bank continues to be satisfactory. The deposits during the year amounted to £2,917,326, and the withdrawals to £2,086,345, that is an increase in the balance held of £831,481, apart from the increase of £249,000 due to the addition of interest earned during the year. In November last the minimum amount which may be withdrawn on demand from a Post Office Savings Bank account was increased from £1 to £3. Stamp savings books have also been introduced for small savings by means of savings stamps which may subsequently be utilised for deposit in the savings bank or for purchase of savings certificates. If preferred, repayment of the stamps may be obtained at any post office when required. The savings stamps facilities were previously only available to members of savings associations.

Due to the emergency conditions, the year just concluded was an abnormally busy one for the stores branch. The outbreak of the war gave rise to serious complications of normal procedure as a result of the general tendency towards price increases, the closing of normal sources of supply, and the preoccupation of British contractors with urgent supplies for their own Government. Pressure on the contracts section, which is responsible for the procuring of supplies required for the post office and for other Government Departments, was heavy and continuous. In addition to the normal requirements, it was necessary to lay in emergency stocks. Large demands came from the Department of Defence for A.R.P. protective garments, and from the Army and Gárda authorities for extra uniform supplies for their augmented forces. The value of contracts placed by the stores branch during 1939 reached a total of £955,620 or £466,231 in excess of the contracts placed in the previous year. The expenditure on articles manufactured or assembled in Eire was £761,943, an increase of £386,149.

Civil aviation and meteorological services are controlled by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The associated wireless services are, however, provided and operated by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, the provision included in the Post Office Vote for the purpose being based on the requirements of the controlling Department. The total provision for 1940-41 amounts to £39,545, an increase of £14,820 on last year. The provision is based on the anticipated flying arrangements during the coming season. The increase is due to additional personnel likely to be required for operating purposes as well as to additional labour for construction works in connection with the Dublin meteorological wireless station and in connection with the installation of blind landing equipment at Rhynanna. I might mention that the radio services in connection with the cross-Channel air services, which were formerly located at Baldonnel, have been transferred to and are now in operation at Collinstown.

I would say, in conclusion, that the period which has elapsed since the outbreak of the war has been a particularly strenuous one for the various branches of the post office, not only on account of the additional work arising out of the emergency conditions but also by reason of their having been deprived of the services of a large number of experienced officers who had to be released for service in other Departments. I am glad to acknowledge the very willing manner in which the staffs generally have responded to the special calls upon them. I think, too, that I am justified in claiming that the services afforded to the public have been carried out with courtesy and efficiency. It will be my endeavour during the coming year to ensure that this satisfactory standard shall in all cases be maintained and, as far as practicable, improved on.

Mr. Dillon

It is certainly true that the Minister may congratulate himself that the services of the post office, taken as a whole, are carried out with a courtesy which is a very gratifying feature of the service. Of course, on occasion one meets with exceptional occurrences which depart from the high standard the post office sets for itself but, taking it as a whole, my experience certainly has been that the general standard of courtesy and the desire to oblige and to help patrons is admirable, and if one has any complaints to make, they are listened to attentively and everything within reason is done to put them right. I wonder does the Minister ever make a trunk call, and if so, has he ever noticed the anxiety that creeps into the voice of the lady who says "three minutes", "six minutes,""nine minutes." I think if a person rings up a neighbour on a trunk line from his own house, and wants to have three, six or nine minutes conversation the post office ought to be very glad. The longer he spends at the telephone the more money the post office makes. But I find that it becomes almost impossible to resist the urgency of the distress in the lady's voice as the minutes tot up, and when she gets to the nine minute stage, one really feels that one is being reprehended for some sinful activity. I have often business transactions that last for 15 or 20 minutes. One of the values of the telephone is that instead of conducting interminable correspondence over complicated business transactions, one can take up the telephone and dispose of outstanding difficulties to the mutual satisfaction of all parties.

In America they have given up interfering in clients' conversations altogether. They sound a kind of gong at the end of every three minutes. It is the same in Great Britain. One is notified and is not allowed to trail along indefinitely without appreciating what is happening. But there is no desire to stop one if it is convenient to go on. It is nearly time an improvement of that kind was considered in reference to the trunk services here. It can be very irritating, if one is in the middle of a very complex discussion about some difficult point, if the lady interrupts the conversation to say that you have been speaking three minutes, suggesting that you should get off the line. At the end of the six minutes one could be very brutal, and there might be a very brusque reply on the part of the subscriber.

I want to tell the Minister that, in my modest experience, there is a substantial improvement in the service of answering the figure "0" or 31 or 39 when you dial. There was a time when the whole city could be burned down before you got any answer to "0" or 31 or 39. That position has materially improved, but I think there is still room for improvement. While that is so, it should be freely admitted that there has been a substantial improvement in the course of the last 12 or 18 months. I understand that any fault that exists is due to an inadequate staff, and that the Post Office makes the case that it cannot maintain staff except to meet the peak demand. While I think the Post Office sometimes leans a little too far in the direction of having a staff adequate only to meet the minimum demands, it should bear in mind that while the telephone is a profit-making service, that makes it none the less a public service, and subscribers should be spared the irritation of undue delay when they dial headquarters whether the figure is "0" or 31 or 39.

The Post Office makes another mistake in regard to trunk service. I have been a severe critic of the trunk service in the past, but I am glad to say, in my experience, which is not inconsiderable, that service is very much improved. It has a long way to go before it catches up with Great Britain and America, but we cannot expect the trunk service in this country, with a very scattered population, to be brought up to the high level of efficiency that obtains in Great Britain or America. It is much better than it was. While I am glad to be able to say that, the Post Office makes this mistake, that it is too slow to provide accommodation in advance of the times. It is always trying to model its economy on the assumption that it should not provide accommodation until the demand is there, with the result that the demand grows almost in spite of the Post Office. It does not do anything to evoke demand.

It is only when it finds the capacity of a line completely breaking down that it considers putting in new circuits. The result of that is a great many people who would put in the telephone and use the trunk service in rural Ireland do not put it in, because their neighbours are always complaining that the delays are so long. If instead of complaining that there were long delays, their neighbours were continually telling them when they went on a visit that it was astonishing when they rang up Dublin they got it as quickly as they got the next parish, I think the telephone would spread much more rapidly than is the case at present. I have not the slightest doubt that what would be excessive accommodation when first installed would be quickly caught up upon by the increased demand. I put it to the Minister that a more enterprising attitude towards increasing the trunk facilities should be adopted by his Department.

I made a suggestion some time ago about simplifying the charge, and I was told on that occasion that the system of zoning in this country was not practicable because the circuits were not laid out in that way. I do not give a fiddle-de-dee what way the circuits are laid, and I do not think it matters, because I do not inquire when I am making a trunk call whether my voice prevails, if the call is sent by way of Cork or Galway and back again so long as it gets where I want to send it. It does make a good deal of difference when I make a call to Waterford from Ballaghaderreen when I have no means of measuring what that call will cost. I have no foot rule by which I could say that Waterford is 140 miles as the crow flies from Ballaghaderren, and that the call, therefore, will cost 1/6. If it were laid down that from every exchange trunk calls could be made over 50 miles as the crow flies for 3d., 100 miles for 6d., 150 miles 9d., and anything over 150 miles 1/- in Ireland, I think that certainly in respect of charges a readily understandable system of levying them would evoke a good deal more business than the system is getting at the present time. The Minister may say: "In fact, it may be much more costly to route a call to a place only 25 miles from where you are than it is to route the call on the direct line for 50 or 60 miles". That may be true but it would all come out in the washing. It does not matter how much each individual call costs provided you get a level rate for them all. It is true that, under a system of zoning, some calls which are dear now would be made cheap and that some calls which are very cheap now might be made a little dearer, but the net result would not materially affect the revenue of the telephone department and the simplification would be of great assistance to users of the telephone and a great temptation to many people who do not use the telephone now because they are not quite sure what it is going to cost them to do so.

The next thing I want to ask the Minister to do is to increase the number of areas in which the hours of telephone accommodation have been extended. To close down the telephone in rural Ireland now at 8 o'clock— which, from the farmers point of view, is 6.30—is absurd. It is absurd for two reasons. In the first place, it is absurd because the farmers frequently have not come home to their houses and have not finished their day's work at that time. Therefore, they are quite unable to avail of the telephone facilities if they want to do so. Secondly, the cheap period for using the telephone is after 7 o'clock. That is a very reasonable arrangement so far as city folk are concerned. They have from 7 o'clock until midnight to talk as much as they want, and they have the night after to do so if they so desire. The countryman has only from 7 to 8 o'clock to avail of the cheap rate, and it not infrequently happens that, when he is seeking to avail of the cheap rate, the exchange is closed down by the time his call comes through. That commonly happens in rural Ireland, because, naturally, everybody tries to get on to the telephone during the cheap period, and a line which is quite adequate to meet the normal day demand is overwhelmed between 7 o'clock and 8 o'clock. I suggest to the Minister that, at a very trifling extra cost, he could make the telephone available in every rural area until 10.30 at night. I urge very strongly that that concession should be made to the rural areas even though it be not an economic proposition and may have to be financed out of the revenue coming into the Post Office from the more densely populated areas.

I wonder if the Minister ever throws his mind back to the days when he lived in the country—if he ever did live in the country. If he did live in the country—particularly if he lived at some distance from a town—he would recognise that the appearance of the telegraph messenger caused consternation in every country kitchen, for two reasons. One reason was that they always apprehended that he was the harbinger of bad news. The second reason was that they knew his arrival was going to cost about 3s. 6d. The cost of delivering telegrams in rural Ireland is positively staggering. When you send a telegram to a person who lives six or seven miles from a post office in the country, it may cost him several shillings to take delivery of it.

I knew the case of a man who was highly thought of and whose family were scattered about the country in different positions. He died. A great many people who knew his brothers and relatives, who were working in towns with them and who had no experience of life in rural Ireland, sent messages of sympathy over the wire. They were delivered at the house and a delivery charge was levied on each of them. A very serious burden was thrown upon that family. That is not reasonable. The Minister himself says, and we all know, that the telegraph service is, of its nature, a dying service. Let it die in peace and do not use it as a flail wherewith to punish the country people. Let us bury it in some kind of glory, and if the Minister chooses to make a contribution to its wake in the form of reduction or abolition of delivery charges in rural Ireland it is not going to cost us a lot. Let nobody imagine that if you make the delivery of telegrams in rural Ireland cheap or, indeed, costless, it is going to precipitate a flood of telegrams all over the country. It is not. It is not going to increase the number sent by a hundred messages a year but it is going to relieve a large number of individuals of charges which they cannot afford to pay and it is, perhaps, going to permit a country person to send a message warning relatives at home of some impending event that he would be afraid to send now lest the relatives be vexed at the charge that would accrue due at the time the telegram came for delivery. I urge on the Minister that, if possible, the delivery charge on telegrams in rural areas should be abolished or, if that be impossible, that it be made merely nominal.

I want telephone kiosks put up at every taxi-rank in Dublin. That is not much to ask. You have got gentlemen who have arrived from the far ends of the earth setting up here in Dublin and establishing themselves in garages. They hold themselves out as ready to send a taxi to your door if you call their number. They place their number in advertising figures in the 'phone book, and they put every inducement and temptation in the way of the public to patronise them. The unfortunate fellows who are out on the streets of Dublin in all weathers trying to earn a meagre and miserable living have, in the majority of cases, to depend on the passenger who is prepared to walk to the taxi-rank and call a cab. We all know that, when we call a cab, we are usually in a hurry or else it is raining.

Given either of these circumstances, you are not going to walk down to the taxi-rank in the hope of getting a cab. When you get there, there may be no cab at that particular rank and you cannot telephone for a cab from another rank. I put it to the Minister that, from the point of view of the convenience of the people who want to call cabs, and from the point of view of the convenience of those who are trying to compete with taxi combines who want to wipe them out of existence, it would not involve excessive expense to put a kiosk on every taxi-rank. It would be a convenience to the person who wants to make a call if he has forgotten about it until he meets the kiosk. It would be an immense help to the taxi-men and it would be an immense convenience to the person who wants to call a taxi. It would be an assurance to the person who walks to the rank that, if there be no taxi there, he can step into the kiosk and ring up the next rank and ask a taxi to come along to where he is waiting. It is not going to involve the Government in any material expense. I have been trying to get a telephone kiosk at the corner of the Rotunda Gardens for two-and-a-half years. Three Ministers of Posts and Telegraphs have battled with me and explained the insuperable difficulty of putting a kiosk opposite Findlater's Church. Surely, in 1940, that ought not to tax the resources of the Government of Eire. I have been assured by one Minister after another that they fully appreciated my point of view but still there is no kiosk opposite Findlater's Church. Considering the number of pupils going to the technical schools there, considering that the rank there is manned by decent old cabmen whom I have known for 35 years and whose fathers before them stood at Findlater's corner, considering that these men had to abandon their cabs and, with admirable enterprise, put taxis on the road and considering that I am living round the corner, I suggest to the Minister that something ought to be done. I do not ask this concession for myself; í ask it for all the taxi ranks in Dublin. I should be long sorry to ask a Fianna Fáil Minister for anything in my own interest. I just mention this matter as a matter of interest, that, in addition to pleading for the taxi-drivers, I do live round the corner.

Mr. Norton

I want to refer to the statement made by the Minister, in which he indicated that the Post Office Stores Department had purchased large quantities of stores not alone for the Post Office Department, but for other Department as well. It might be news to the Minister to hear that his own staff are complaining that he has not yet supplied them with the regular issue of uniforms which has been due for some weeks and nobody is yet able to throw official light on when the staff are likely to get their uniforms. Will the Minister direct the attention of the Stores Department to this, that they ought to look after the staffs of their own Department with at least as much efficiency as they are looking after the staffs of other Departments? Will he indicate when it is likely that the staff of his Department will get the articles for the supply of which his stores branch is responsible?

Another matter to which I would like to refer is the claim for increased wages which has been submitted to the Minister's Department and which has been under consideration for a very long period. The Minister is somewhat new to his present office, but his predecessor promised last year to reconsider a claim for increased wages which he previously rejected. He indicated, in the course of a discussion with representatives of the staff, that he was impressed by aspects of the claim as submitted. Everyone believed that, as a result of the Minister's admission that he was impressed by aspects of the claim, a favourable decision would be given. Whether it was an ill-omen that the present Minister went over to the Department, I cannot say, but the fact remains that the Minister has not redeemed the high hopes held out by his predecessor's admission that he was impressed by aspects of the claim as submitted. Instead of doing something to redeem what was regarded as an implied promise by his predecessor, the present Minister has rejected the claim and has given no reason for its rejection. He does not attempt to say the claim is unreasonable or that it is based on any unjustifiable premises; he does not attempt to say that evidence has not been submitted in abundance to justify it. All he does is to express his very deep regret that in existing circumstances it is not possible to meet the claim for increased wages for a staff which have proved to the Minister's Department that that Department is not quite insensible to conviction by argument based on reason and logic that they are in urgent need, particularly in existing circumstances, of a substantial increase in wages to meet the rapid increase in the cost of living.

I am sure the Minister would not claim for himself that he has the last word in the matter of judging the reasonableness or otherwise of the claim. I am sure he will be prepared to admit that as between his viewpoint as a Minister and the viewpoint of the staff seeking an increased wage there might reasonably be some doubt as to whether the claim was justified. The Minister has now been asked to agree to refer the question in dispute to an independent tribunal in order that such tribunal can consider and determine the matter at issue, the staff for their part having undertaken, if the Minister does likewise, to accept the verdict of an independent tribunal and to be bound by the terms of that tribunal's award. Every day in the week the Minister for Industry and Commerce is advising employers and employees to resort to that method of settling disputes. No later than yesterday the Government Press was somewhat lyrical in advocating a similar method of settling a dispute. I hope the Minister, in face of the sound example set him by his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, will give favourable consideration to the question of allowing a matter of this kind, upon which there is a dispute, to be referred to an independent tribunal so that the matter can be decided once and for all and the dispute resolved by reference to an independent party.

The Minister can hardly claim for himself the privilege that he has the right to be the defendant and at the same time the judge, jury and sheriff. That is the rôle in which the Minister is appearing in connection with this matter. I hope he will indicate that he proposes to accept that method, which is reasonable and will commend itself to all reasonably-minded people, of settling a dispute which has gone on for a very considerable time.

The Minister has also a claim for increased wages in respect to his engineering workmen. He and his predecessors have had that claim under consideration for a very long period. Recently he indicated that he hoped to be able to communicate an early decision. When the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or the Department say that they hope to communicate an early decision, one must not be misled by language of that kind, particularly when it is used by anybody connected with the Post Office administration. After all, "early" has some meaning, even if it is different in the Post Office, and I hope the Minister will tell us when that decision is likely to be communicated.

Mr. Brasier

I was very glad to hear the rosy report made by the Minister, following his first year in office at the head of this Department, particularly as previous reports in regard to the post office were of a very depressing character. The Minister's optimistic note leads me to hope that he will now consider the advisability of establishing a daily delivery in many of the rural areas. The greatest possible inconvenience is caused by the fact that there are only two-day or, as in some places, three-day deliveries in the week. While members of the agricultural population may not receive a very large correspondence, the importance of whatever correspondence they receive cannot be denied. In many areas deliveries of live stock and other commodities have to be carried out immediately and notification from a particular firm in relation to live stock or the delivery of manure and other things of that sort has often been so delayed as to cause a serious loss to the farmer.

I am all the more encouraged to make a demand for better deliveries because the post office is a very great gainer by the fact that the county boards of health have been giving numerous substantial guarantees for telephone services in rural areas that otherwise might not be established. A conservative policy may sometimes be advisable in the Posts and Telegraphs Department, but having regard to the great importance of production at the present time and to the importance also of the quick notification of the deliveries or receipt of goods, it is of extreme importance that the Minister would consider restoring these daily deliveries. There is one special place in my constituency, that is Donoughmore, where the farmers are absolutely insistent on asking the post office to give a daily delivery of letters. What the Department would lose on the swings they would gain on the roundabouts. In a public service like this, it is of great importance that the community should be properly served. At one time they had in these areas a daily delivery but, because of economies, that is now restricted. Economies are very admirable at times but there are other things more important and I would ask the Minister at this special time to bear that in mind.

In various parts of the country, particularly along the seaboard, there are places where large numbers of people assemble during the summer holiday season. In the case of a single line of telephone to such a village people find it necessary to book a call early in the morning so as to get any prospect of getting a connection or putting their call through during the day. That is a matter which the Minister should seriously consider remedying. I shall be very happy to communicate with the Department directly and give details of a number of things that are badly needing redress; I will do this directly and not take up any more of the time of the House.

Mr. O'Donovan

I was asked to raise a matter that has been already discussed here this evening. It was raised by Deputy Tadhg Murphy on the Gaeltacht Services Vote. That is, the establishment of telephonic communication with the islands of Cape Clear and Sherkin. I understand that some money is available for this service along the western coast. I hope that in the term "western coast" West Cork is also included, and I trust that this service with Cape Clear and Sherkin will be established as quickly as possible. Deputy Murphy stressed the matter this evening with the Parliamentary Secretary for Lands and asked him to intercede with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I think there is no necessity for me to do more than emphasise what Deputy Murphy said. It is most essential that this connection should be made.

With regard to the telegraphic services, I want to say that rural areas generally suffer in the matter of delivery fees. The country people have few amenities and the charge for the delivery of a telegram is, in many districts, altogether exorbitant. Along with the other losses on this particular side of the service the Department might very well put up with this small additional loss and give free delivery in rural districts or at least have one standard charge. Within one mile of the post office there is a charge of 3d. or 6d. Why not standardise that charge and make it, say, 6d. all round and not put on a big charge where the distance is three miles or more? Why not let the people who are availing of the service in the towns bear their share of the standard charge so as to meet the situation? In many parts of the country there is no telephone service and people have to depend on the telegraphic service. The only time the service is used is on the occasion of the announcement of a birth, an invitation to a marriage or the report of a death in the family.

On each of these occasions people send a good many wires and the charges for delivery are very severe. I think the Minister should consider that matter. As regards the restoration of the daily postal service to country areas I would like to point out that in the past when the post office was not paying nearly as well as it is to-day we had that service. I do not see any reason why the people in the country places should have to suffer the inconvenience caused by the restricted service. The people in many areas are without any telephone service, they have not the benefit of the wireless service and they are denied the daily delivery of letters. Had they this service many of them would be able to keep in touch with world affairs because of the newspapers the postman would be able to deliver to them. The daily delivery would insure that the postman would be able to take the paper along with the other letters. These are a few of the matters I now wish to raise. I urge the Minister to give them his serious consideration.

Seosamh O Mongáin

Tá sé ráite nach dtáinig olc ariamh i dtír nach fearrde duine eicínt. Níl fhios agam an é an cogadh no an t-athrú Aire is cúis leis an athrú atá tagtha ar an Radio. Agus is athrú chun feabhais é go cinnte maidir le Gaedhilge agus Gaedhealachas. Ní fhéadfaidh duine ar bith é sin a cheilt. Castar an oiread daoine ormsa is castar ar Theachta ar bith sa Teach seo, ón taobh ó thuaidh, ón taobh ó dheas, ó thiar agus thoir, agus níl duine ariamh dár labhair liom nár dubhairt go raibh feabhas air.

Na hamhráin bhíodh Donnchadh Mac Donnchadha ag cur ar fáil ar an Radio bhíodar go háluinn agus chuir sé go leor againn ag cuimhneamh ar áilleacht na tíre agus an dream a bhí ann fada ó shoin. Ní bheadh súil agat le tada ó mhac a athar seo, mar budh é an duine galánta agus áluinn bhí ann féin. Gan aimhreas, rinne sé an oiread leis an Teach seo chur ar bun le aonduine eile le n-a linn. Fear eile, Cormac Mac Fhionnlaoich, le ceol agus le fonn agus le amhráin agus le stair na tíre níl a sharú ann.

Ach má d'fhága mé ar deireadh é ní le donas é: sin é an fear, D.L. Kelleher, atá ag cur síos dúinn gach Satharn ar na condaethe agus ar na rudaí atá ionta agus ar an dream a bhí ionta. Síleann go leor daoine nach raibh maith sa tír seo gur fhás muid féin suas, ach duine ar bith a bhíos ag éisteacht le D.L. kelleher bhainfeadh sé an phostúlacht seo as mar bhí daoine íontacha, galánta, seasamhacha agus fíor sa tír seo sul á rugadh ceachtar againn. Dá gcoinníodh muid seo roimh ár súile go minic b'fhéidir go mbeadh muid níos gráDiaúla agus níos deise le chéile. Ba mhaith an rud go leor de na seanrudaí a chur romhainn go mion agus go minic agus molaim leis an Aire é dhéanamh cho minic agus is féidir leis é. Duine ar bith nach maith leis seo is féidir leis an eochair a chasadh agus bheith ag éisteacht leis an tír is maith leis.

In áiteacha faoi'n tír, san áit nach bhfuil ach telefón nó dhó, ba ceart an £8 no £9 de chíos atá ar telefón ionta a laigheadú cho híseal is atá sé sna bailte móra dá mb'fhéidir é. Faghann na bailte móra go leor seachas sin nach bhfaghann na bailte beaga agus ba ceart roinnt a leigean chuig na bailte beaga.

Tá cupla áit sa tír sin againne ar cheart maith a dhéanamh dhóibh agus telefón a chur ionta. Áit acu Corr na Mónadh agus ba ceart telefón a chur ann. Tá sé tuairim is sé mhíle ó telefón mar tá sé. Ba ceart don Aire breathnú amach d'áit den tsórt sin. Tagann go leor strainséaraí an bealach sin ach ní dóibh-san atá mé ag iarraidh an ruda seo ar an Aire ach do mhuintir na háite. Bíonn orthu go leor airgid íoc ar telegram ar bith fhaghas siad. Ní fhéadfa an tAire, ar ndóigh, gach uile shórt a dhéanamh ach ba mhór ar fad an mhaith a bheadh déanta aige dá dtagadh sé de chabhair ar mhuintir na háite sin agus telefón a thabhairt dóibh. Cuir i gcás dá mbeadh dochtúr ag teastáil uatha chaithfeadh siad dul ocht no naoi de mhílte agus bheadh moill mhór ann agus contabhairt dá réir. Nuair a bhíos duine in ospidéal freisin is mór an imní bhíos ag a mhuintir dó agus ba mhór an mhaith a dhéanfadh sé dóibh bheith i ndon scéala fháil faoi, rud nach mbeadh aon fháil acu air mara mbeadh telefón comhgarach dóibh. Ba mhór an tairbhe dhóibh é gan aimhreas telefón a bheith in aice láthair acu.

General MacEoin

I want to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that in a number of country districts and villages the telephone service has been extended to the Gárda barracks, where there is no public call office in the local post office. In a number of places, by permission of the Gárdaí, some use is made of the instrument in the barracks, but that is not satisfactory, as the Gárdaí have a decided objection to the public using their telephone. I think, in cases where the telephone has been installed in a post office, a public call office should be established there so that a call could be made from it without inconveniencing, annoying or straining the regulations made by the Gárdaí authorities. The present practice is very inconvenient. In my opinion, if the people in the rural districts were able to use the telephone you would have more people in the larger towns installing the service, because it would be a great accommodation to all concerned. Deputy Norton referred to the pay of various members in the Post Office service. He forget, I think, to mention the people who have suffered the greatest hardship of all in that connection, namely, rural postmistresses and rural postmen.

Mr. Norton

The postman was included in my remarks.

General MacEoin

The poor postmistress was not.

Mr. Norton

I am letting the Deputy off with that.

General MacEoin

I would prefer if the Deputy had taken up the cudgels on her behalf as well, because he seems to be the grandfather of the lot, and could handle this better than I can hope to. To my knowledge, the duties of Post Office officials have been increased considerably in recent years by the payment of unemployment assistance, the issuing of dog licences and work of that kind. No doubt some allowance is made to them for those extra duties, but I submit that it is totally inadequate. Sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have practically a whole-time job, but in most cases the wage they receive is a miserable one. I know some sub-post offices where there is a good deal of work to be done, and yet the pay is as low as £18 and £20 a year.

Mr. Brasier

And less.

General MacEoin

To my own knowledge it is as low as the figures I have mentioned. In other places it may be even lower. If the room in which the work is done had to be rented, the sum that I have mentioned would not be sufficient to meet the rent, without taking into consideration at all payment for the time and services rendered by those people. The pay of the rural postman, for whom Deputy Norton has already spoken, is a disgrace. When he has finished his daily delivery of letters he can do no other work, no matter how short his journey may be, and I may say that I do not know any short ones. Four or five hours of the day are occupied in doing his journey, walking or cycling. That means that the man's whole day is gone. In view of the wages allowed under statute or by order to agricultural workers and others, I consider that the pay of the rural postman is totally inadequate, and that the Minister should give a decision on this matter at the earliest possible moment with a view to improving the condition of those men.

On the question of the appointment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses I have not very much to complain of except this: that where a person has been working in a post office for four or five years that person should get a preference in the matter of appointment when a vacancy arises in the office. I submit to the Minister that the Department should accept that principle: that in the case of a vacancy arising in an office that person should get a preference over anybody else. To my knowledge a post office became vacant some time ago. A person had been working in it for ten years. This was an office in which money order and telegraph work was done. The sub-postmaster died, and the vacancy arose. This person who had been engaged in the office for ten years carried on until the new person was appointed. The lady I refer to made application for the appointment. She succeeded in getting the old post office premises. Notwithstanding the fact that she had higher qualifications than the person appointed, and that she was a good, solid, sound supporter of the Minister's Party as well, simply because a better supporter of it came along, she was knocked out and the other supporter got the appointment. I think that that is not a sound principle.

Mr. Norton

It is a long-established one.

General MacEoin

It may be, but that does not make it anything sounder. I submit that there should be a governing principle applied in every case that employees who have spent a number of years at that work should get a preference over all others, irrespective of the other people's political affiliations. The next point I want to stress is the question of a daily delivery, which is a very important matter. I know that there are financial difficulties in the way of a daily delivery, but I do not know that it would cost very much more to have it. There are several routes that could be amalgamated with existing ones and I think the extra cost would not be very heavy. In every case where these routes can be amalgamated the Minister should consider the advisability of putting on a daily delivery.

As for the charge for the delivery of telegrams, the cost is rather high when you live three or four miles away from a post office. The first statute mile, of course, is free, but if you are one perch over that the charge is 3d., and for every mile after that it is 3d. additional. If you are four or five miles from a post office and you receive five or six telegrams in the day, the cost, at 9d. each, runs up to something in a very short time. I think that there should be a maximum rate as well as a minimum rate. Where a person gives notice at the post office that he will call for the telegrams at certain times during the day there should be an arrangement made by which that would be allowable. I do not know whether that is so at present, but it would save the individual from these extra charges. Finally I want to stress the question of the pay, or salary, or allowances of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses and I ask the Minister to give sympathetic and favourable consideration to their claim. I do not know whether they have actually made a claim or not, but I know that in justice they are entitled to an increase in the meagre salary or allowance, whatever it may be called, that is given to them.

Mr. Hickey

I should like to tell the Minister of an experience I had recently in Cork. I wanted to send a telegram to Galway some time between 7.30 and 8 o'clock in the evening, and I was surprised to find that it could not be accepted at the post office because it would not be delivered in Galway that evening. The only alternative for me was to telephone to a certain person in Galway. When I went to telephone from the post office, I was told I could not do it, and I had to go to a public kiosk outside. That was a rather exceptional experience to have in a place like Cork.

I also want to remind the Minister of an application made to him by the public assistance board and the board of health in Cork to have a telephone kiosk erected in one of the housing scheme areas. There have been 779 houses built outside the City of Cork area, and, as I say, an application was made for a public telephone kiosk in one of those areas. In reply we were asked if we could give an idea of the number of calls that would be made if the kiosk were put up. We pointed out that the dispensaries were a long distance from these housing schemes and that great difficulty would arise when a doctor or midwife was required. The reply to that was that unless we were able to give an idea of the number of calls that would be made during the year they could not see their way to put up a kiosk. I think that is not the way to treat an area where there are 779 houses which are some two miles from the post office. There are seven dispensary doctors in Cork, all living within the city area, and with 779 families living outside the city, two miles from the post office, it is rather peculiar that the Department would not agree to put up a telephone kiosk for their convenience.

I agree with what Deputy Dillon said about having a telephone kiosk where taxi men are plying for hire. Recently a number of taxi men in Cork asked me if I could get the post office authorities to remove the public kiosk from where it is at present to the centre of Patrick Street where the taxi men are plying for hire. So far they have not been granted that concession. I am at a loss to know why such a request as that should be turned down. It is only a question of moving the kiosk about 100 yards so as to convenience the taxi men. At present if anybody wants a taxi he has to ring up the Victoria Hotel or the Imperial Hotel and ask them to send the taxi. The taxi people are only asking that the kiosk should be erected where they could be rung up, as is done in Dublin. I suggest to the Minister that such a request as that should be acceded to, as it comes from people who would not lightly ask for such a concession. I hope the Minister will look into the points I have raised.

Mr. Byrne

About six months ago I had a letter from a rural postman asking me if I could help him to get a passport for his daughter to go to America. He finished up his letter by saying that his only employment was that of a postman at 18/- a week. I could not credit that a postman in the service of the State would only have 18/- per week wages, but I made inquiries and found it was true. That is a very bad example to set to other employers in this country. Whether the man worked a regular number of hours per day or not, I do not know, but I certainly think that a man wearing a State uniform should be paid a wage which would enable him to keep his wife and family. Even if he had only one delivery per day and for that reason was only paid that small wage, I think it is very unfair. I join with other Deputies in appealing to the Minister to see that rural postmen are paid a reasonable wage. I understand also that there are sorting assistants employed who are paid from £1 to 30/- per week. I do not know where these junior sorting assistants get their experience if their wages are only £1 or 30/- per week. With other Deputies, I appeal to the Minister to see that a decent living wage is paid to post office employees.

Mr. Dockrell

I want to raise one hardy annual with the Minister; in fact, it might be described as a perennial, except that it is a long time since there has been any bloom from it. It is about the St. Andrew Street post office. It is years ago since that figured on the Estimates. There was always something elusive about the St. Andrew Street post office. I think it was the Agricultural Credit Corporation who were putting up a block of buildings in St. Andrew Street and it appeared as if, without any consultation with the post office or taking into consideration the post office requirements, in some mysterious way accommodation was to be provided for a post office in that building.

The reason I state that is that when I asked if they were going to take into account the density of the traffic there, and to make provision to ensure that there would not be a line of vehicles standing outside the post office, I was assured that that would be all right, that there would be an inside well for vehicles and that they would go into that out of the way of the traffic. That would presuppose that somebody had envisaged the requirements of a post office such as would be required in St. Andrew Street, but apparently it has disappeared off the map altogether. There is no mention in the Estimates of any sum for the post office. In fact, I thought that it had disappeared altogether, but the Minister referred to two cables that were going to be brought into St. Andrew Street Post Office. I should like to ask him seriously whether any plans have been drawn up for that building or whether any contract has been entered into. Mind you, if a contract was entered into for the building two years ago and has been postponed until now, somebody is going to pay dearly for it because the cost of building is going up very much. I should like the Minister to tell us what is the position. Are there any plans for the St. Andrew Street Post Office or is it totally illusory? Is it going to be proceeded with? What is blocking the erection of a post office on that site?

Mr. Benson

I should like to trot out a hardy perennial which, unlike Deputy Dockrell's perennial, has got a little bloom on it and it blooms on the Malahide Road. That is the "rural automatic" to which reference has been made by the Minister. The Minister at one stage in his remarks to-day said, as I understood, that there were ample supplies of necessary materials to carry on this year, but yet when he came to the rural automatic telephone he said it would have to stop because of inability to obtain necessary instruments and so forth. I do not know how these two statements can be reconciled but possibly the Minister, in his reply, will be able to reconcile them. He referred to the fact that the telegraph system had made a loss of £129,000 in 1938-39 and that the position for 1939-40 was certainly no better.

It seems, if this rural automatic telephone is capable of proper development, that Deputy Dillon's desire that the telegraph system should be allowed to rest in peace has a reasonable chance of being realised because if the rural automatic telephone is a success, surely the majority of the telegrams can be telephoned and handled in that manner? We can also get over the objection which, I think, Deputy MacEoin raised, about the delivery charge for telegrams in the country. It seems that if the rural automatic telephone system is properly developed, the number of telephone calls must increase very greatly because the present system whereby the exchange is closed down at 8 o'clock nullifies one of the biggest advantages of the telephone system, which is that it is available at all hours particularly at such times as during the night when it may be wanted in an emergency.

I cannot agree with Deputy Dillon's remarks on the question of 0, 31 and 39. There has possibly been some slight improvement but there is still some delay in getting answers to these numbers in the exchange. I would urge that at such times as there is a heavy demand on the telephone system, there should be an additional staff to answer these numbers. It usually means, particularly in the case of 31 that there is some urgency about it, that the other subscriber has not been found or something of that nature and that some further information is necessary. Yet, there are times when one has to wait for a very considerable time before one gets any answer at all from the inquiries number.

Mr. Hughes

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the state of many of our post offices in provincial towns and villages. I think that as public offices they are a disgrace. Some of them are in a very poor, insanitary condition and many of them want a little renovation or a little bit of painting. In some cases a decent coat of white-wash would make them bright and cheery. Certainly that would not cost very much and I suggest that the Minister might pay a little attention to that matter. As public institutions, one would certainly expect them to be kept in a better condition, especially in some of the more important towns in the country. In an important town like Carlow, we have a very poor type of post office. The office is certainly very gloomy.

I think that the local authority in Carlow made representations to the Minister's predecessor on the matter of telephone services. They asked for a night and a Sunday service there. I think they have a night service but they have no Sunday service whatever. I mentioned the matter to the Minister himself in the last few weeks. I think a town like Carlow is entitled to consideration. It would certainly be a great benefit to the people to have a Sunday service. It would not cost very much and I would ask the Minister to bear that in mind.

Mr. Little

The first question I should like to answer was asked by Deputy Corish. He asked what was a "carrier" circuit. It is a telephone conversation that is carried by high frequency currents. Several such circuits, each bearing its own conversation, work over a single pair of wires. Deputy Dillon apparently does not like to be interrupted in his conversations, or to be reminded that his discussion on the telephone is pretty lengthy. We are considering, as a matter of fact, making it easier for people who wish to do so, to carry on lengthy conversations on the telephone. The introduction of a sound indicator of the length of the call is under consideration. At the present time there are the usual difficulties in getting supplies. In some cases we have an adequate supply but, in regard to certain things which we have to bring across the water any promise we make is conditional on our being able to get such supplies.

Deputy Dillon had some difficulty regarding the telephone from Ballaghaderreen to Waterford. Knowing the distance, he would like to be able to know also what the charge would be. The system upon which the circuits are arranged and the existing basis of charge are framed on the radial distance between the exchanges connected for a call. This basis is sound in principle. Much more operating and extensive circuits may be involved between places in the same county than by calls between neighbouring counties. The distance would not be as the crow flies but from one exchange to another, connecting, say, from Ballaghaderreen to Waterford. I am sure the charges are ascertainable, but it is a little bit complicated owing to the system.

I was also asked about the early closing of country exchanges. The normal hours at exchanges with less than ten subscribers are from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. on week-days and from 9 a.m. to 10.30 a.m. on Sundays. Where there are ten subscribers and upwards, the service is extended to 10 p.m. on week-days and additional attendance is given on Sunday evenings from 7 p.m. to 9 p.m. Where continuous attendance is given at provincial exchanges, the traffic arising after 10 p.m. is, on the whole, negligible. The cost of any general extension of hours would not be justified, particularly in existing circumstances. The real solution of the question for rural exchanges is, as Deputy Benson has pointed out, the development of the semi-automatic system, which would be the ultimate solution. It may be said that this is a complicated system the apparatus for which must be got from abroad— mainly from U.S.A. Apart from present difficulties in getting such supplies the provision of these rural automatic exchanges would have to be a very gradual process, even in normal times. More than one Deputy raised the question of porterage charges on telegrams. Prior to July, 1936 the charge was 6d. a mile for distances beyond one mile. A reduction to 3d. a mile was then made. There is free delivery up to one mile; the charge of 3d. a mile beyond the first mile is less than the cost of delivery and involves a substantial loss. The cost of an extension of the free delivery area to two miles would be £2,200; of an extension to three miles, £3,600. The amount collected annually for porterage—for delivery over one mile—is about £4,000. Considering that we have already a heavy loss of £129,000 on telegraphs, it is not a service on which we would be prepared to increase our losses.

Deputy Dillon—and also Deputy Hickey, I think—raised the question of Kiosks. As a matter of fact, there are near the taxi ranks actual telephones for the purpose of calling taxis at the principal ranks in Dublin and the numbers of the telephones are in the directory. Those phones are not in kiosks. Kiosks cost a considerable sum of money and careful inquiry has to be made as to whether the place is suitable for a kiosk or not. As a matter of fact, I think I can say that the place to which the Deputy referred is one which has been the subject of inquiry and if found suitable we will put one there. Deputy Hickey asked how it was that he had to go to a Kiosk rather than to the post office in Cork. That is because the staff is limited there and after certain hours, and under present conditions, it is not found wise that the post office itself should be used and we ask people to go instead to a telephone outside.

Deputy Norton raised the question of uniforms. The delay as I am sure he realises—is due to the present emergency, but the uniforms will certainly be sent out by the month of June. We can undertake that.

Mr. Norton

Not before then?

Mr. Little

Hardly, I am afraid. The Deputy may also have noticed that even in England a warning is given about the necessity to economise on all cloth materials and so on, so I think we will have to be forgiven for not delivering them at the usual time.

Deputy Norton also raised the general question of the wages obtained. Perhaps I may refer briefly to the history of the claim. In 1934 a general claim for improvement in the basic scales of every Departmental grade, except the supervising grades, was put forward, the cost of which at the mean of the scales would have been at least £272,000 per annum. The claim was, in the main, refused, as it was considered that, generally speaking, the scales in force were adequate and the demands not sustainable. Certain increases were, however, considered to be justified for particular grades, and improvements were authorised and became operative in December, 1935, which involved additional expenditure of approximately £14,300 per annum. Subsequently, a concession reducing the net working hours of full-time Post Office employees from 48 to 44 hours a week was sanctioned, at a cost of approximately £12,300 per annum.

Early in 1937 a further demand for wages increases was submitted which, if conceded, would have cost the Department about £141,000 a year. No reasonable ground could be found for acceding to the demand, and it had accordingly to be refused.

The claim, however, continued to be pressed and, following a discussion between representatives of the Post Office Workers' Union and Deputy Traynor in February, 1939, the general wage position was further examined. The Department was and is satisfied that existing scales of remuneration of the various classes for the work required of them are, in general, adequate, especially when the security of tenure which Civil Service employment ensures and the valuable privileges associated therewith are taken into account, and it is satisfied, in particular, that no case exists for an increase in the maximum in any instance. Re-examination of the question was chiefly directed towards ascertaining whether some steepening of certain of the scales would be justified, so that officers might reach their maxima in a shorter period. The investigation had not, however, been completed when the emergency arose in September last, and I much regret that it will not be possible to give the matter further consideration while existing conditions obtain.

The Deputy asked that we should agree to an independent tribunal to be appointed to deal with this matter and give judgement. That is, of course, a matter really for the Department of Finance. Perhaps the Deputy's memory is a bit shorter than mine. I have a kind of recollection of a certain general election which was fought on the broad principle of which the Deputy is trying to get in the thin end of the wedge now.

Mr. Norton

The Deputy is raising this independent of the general question. The Deputy is asking the Minister to follow the advice given to him by his colleague the Minister for Industry and Commerce and by the Government Press organ yesterday.

Mr. Little

It is a question which really should be referred to the Department of Finance.

Mr. Norton

Will the Minister do that?

Mr. Little

I am afraid it involves a very big principle and I would not like to hold out any hope. The Deputy also raised the question of the claim of the engineering workmen. In regard to the claim for increased scales made on behalf of officers in the engineering skilled and semi-skilled grades, Deputy Traynor, who had carefully examined the claim intimated during the Estimate debate last year that the heavy expenditure which acceptance would involve would not be justified. In regard to the allowance paid for the more highly skilled duties a reasonable case exists for a measure of improvement. I have accordingly obtained the sanction of the Minister for Finance for increases in the allowance payable to skilled workmen, class II, and acting unestablished skilled workmen for various specified duties. Particulars of the improved allowances and of the conditions attached to them will be communicated to the Deputy and to the officers concerned with as little delay as possible.

Deputy Brasier and Deputy O'Donovan both raised the question of daily delivery. Out of about 4,000 posts only 1,700 have less than six-day service. Substantial increases in frequency were given within the last few years. Of course, we have to have regard to economy at present. The first reaction after the crisis was rather to cut down rural services than to increase them. That will not be done, and I think we have achieved something in preventing that, but I do not think that we will be in a position, having regard to the economies which must be made, to increase the services, certainly not, I think, this year.

Mr. Brasier

Will the Minister keep the matter before him and consider what increases can be made?

Mr. Little

Certainly we will inquire into any individual case.

Mr. Brasier

I mentioned one place, Donoughmore. Perhaps the Minister will inquire into that?

Mr. Little

Certainly, we will take a note of that and inquire if it would be economic to have a six-day service there. Deputy Mongan rather forestalled the Broadcasting Vote. I was reluctant to interrupt him because he was speaking so nicely of the broadcasting service of Radio Athlone. I did not like to point out to him that he had rather forestalled my statement on it. At the same time that does not prevent me from expressing my gratitude to him for his appreciation of the good work done by the broadcasting service. He also mentioned that he would like to see a reduction in telephone charges. That is rather a difficult matter because, in the case of the telephone service, the reductions in rates which were conceded in 1936 resulted in an immediate annual drop in revenue of about £9,500 and, although that has been more than recovered by growing traffic, expenditure on the service has been mounting mainly by reason of extra cost for staff and plant necessary for the disposal of the augmented traffic. The profit of £105,000, approximately, which existed in 1935-36 was, in 1939-40, down to approximately £66,000.

Even in Great Britain, where, by reason of the huge trade and business carried on, it might be expected that lower rates would induce compensating traffic, the experience has been the same. So that I think that having made one attempt to do that—and it has been successful—it would be some time yet before we would dare to venture on another reduction, especially having regard to the economies necessary at the present time. The Deputy also mentioned that some areas in the Gaeltacht were neglected. He specially mentioned Cornamona. I shall certainly have the matter inquired into and see if we can deal with it and give satisfaction.

Deputy MacEoin raised the question of the police barracks 'phone, and said that sometimes it is not suitable for use by the public. In any place where call offices may be required, if we are told about it, we certainly shall inquire into the matter and see if it would be suitable to place a call office in the town. He also raised one of the hardy annuals, the question of increasing the payment of sub-postmasters, which I am afraid at the present time, however sympathetic one may feel about it, would be very difficult to do. It is not a popular time to be a Minister for Posts and Telegraphs because of the necessity for very severe stringency in all these matters.

Mr. Norton

Why did not you do it before now?

Mr. Little

Of course, I can say I was not there. I would have given you everything with two hands when I was not there. We have been looking into the matter of the sub-postmasters, and I may say that official inquiries in the matter are approaching completion. Sub-postmasters are paid on a unit basis on the volume of the various classes of post office business transacted in their offices. The question of the revision of their conditions is one of considerable complexity. The heavy pressure under which the Department has been labouring, especially since the emergency arose, has impeded progress. I hope to be in a position to communicate a decision soon, but, so far as my information goes, there seems to be little prospect of existing conditions warranting any concession being made in the matter. Deputies should remember, in considering the remuneration of sub-postmasters, that their positions are not of a full-time character. They are not supposed to depend, and do not in practice depend solely upon the post office emolument. In practically all cases they engage in business of one kind or another. Moreover, the numerous applications for sub-post office vacancies and the energy with which they are pursued do not suggest that sub-postmasters regard the remuneration offered as seriously inadequate.

More than one Deputy complained of the payment of part-time postmen. In the case of part-time postmen, they are paid at the rate of approximately 1/- an hour. They are merely part-time and they are supposed to be able to get other work as well.

Mr. Byrne

And if they cannot get work?

Mr. Norton

The post office does not care.

Mr. Little

They are, then, better off than the people who cannot get work and who are not temporary postmen.

Mr. Byrne

Is there some truth in the suggestion that postmen are being paid 18/- a week?

Mr. Little

Yes, because three hours' work a day is all they are doing for that amount.

Mr. Byrne

That is not a credit to the post office, is it? They would work more if you would give them work.

Mr. Little

But there is not the post office work there for them to do other than three hours a day.

Mr. Byrne

They ought to be paid a wage on which they could keep their families at home and not have to send them to America.

Mr. Little

It is only a part-time job and I can assure the Deputy that there is very keen competition to get these posts.

General MacEoin

There is competition for the dole of 3/-.

Mr. Little

Certainly, under present conditions, it would not be fair for me to suggest that we could hold out any hope of making a change. Deputy Byrne referred to the sorting assistants, but I think that the people he had in mind as getting from £1 to 30/- must be very junior. Deputy Dockrell raised the question of the St. Andrew Street Post Office. On this site will be housed a new post office and trunk telephone exchange, the latter linked with the trunk exchange at present being installed in the Exchequer Street premises acquired from the Hospitals' Trust last year. The original intention was that the Agricultural Credit Corporation should share the building with the post office, but that body has withdrawn from the scheme. The plans originally prepared are, accordingly, now unsuitable and they will have to be revised. The preparation of amended plans will be pursued as expeditiously as possible. It is the intention to dispose of the present College Green branch office when the new St. Andrew Street branch office is occupied.

Mr. Dockrell

Have you acquired the site for the new post office there?

Mr. Little

Yes, we are going ahead now according to the changed plans. Deputy Hughes raised the question of attention being given to keeping post offices clean. Of course, in that connection the responsibility so far as sub-post offices are concerned lies with the sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress, and if any such case were to be pointed out, I think it would be a case for drawing the attention of the sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress to the matter. I think, however, that such cases would be very unusual, because these sub-offices are usually kept very well. I shall bear in mind the Deputy's reference to Carlow post office. Deputy O'Donovan mentioned the case of certain islands in the south of Ireland, and all I can say is that these are going to receive special attention.

Vote put and agreed to.