I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1:—
Section 9. In sub-section (2), page 7, the word "three" deleted in line 7 and the word "two" sub stituted.
County Management Bill, 1939—From the Seanad. - In Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:—
Section 9. In sub-section (4), page 7, all from the word "direct" in line 15 to the end of the sub-section deleted and the following words and paragraphs substituted:—"do all or any of the following things, that is to say:—
(a) direct in respect of a particular county (other than a county mentioned in any of the preceding sub-sections of this section) that there shall be, for such county, an assistant county manager, or a specified number of assistant county managers, in addition to the county manager;
(b) in the case of grouped counties (other than the counties of Tipperary, North Riding, and Tipperary, South Riding), give such direction as is mentioned in the next preceding paragraph of this sub-section either, as he shall think proper, in respect of one only of such counties or in respect of both such counties and in the latter case, if he so thinks proper, direct that the same person or persons shall be the assistant county manager or assistant county managers for each of such counties;
(c) increase the number of assistant county managers for a county mentioned in any of the preceding sub-sections of this section and, in the case of the counties of Tipperary, North Riding, and Tipperary, South Riding, make such increase either, as he thinks proper, in respect of one only of those counties or in respect of both of those counties and, in the latter case, either with or without the requirement that the same person or persons shall be the additional assistant county manager or assistant county managers for each of those counties.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:—
Section 9. In sub-section (5), page 7, the word "foregoing" in line 19 deleted and the words "next preceding" substituted.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 4:—
Section 9. In sub-section (5), page 7, after the word "county" in line 23, the following words added:—"but not so as to reduce the number of assistant county managers for any of the counties of Dublin, Cork, Tipperary, North Riding, or Tipperary South Riding, below the number fixed by this section".
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 5:—
Section 9, in sub-section (6), page 7, all from the word "and" in line 25 to the end of the sub-section be deleted.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 6:—
Section 9. Before sub-section (8), in page 7, a new sub-section inserted as follows:—
(8) Whenever and so long as there is in force an order made by the Minister under this section increasing the number of assistant county managers for any of the Counties of Dublin, Cork, Tipperary, North Riding, or Tipperary, South Riding, the number of assistant county managers for such county shall be increased in accordance with such an order or an order amending such order.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 7:—
Section 10. Before sub-section (3), in page 7, a new sub-section inserted as follows:—
(3) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the number of Dublin assistant city managers, that is to say:—
(a) the Minister may by order, whenever he so thinks fit, increase the number of Dublin assistant city managers;
(b) the Minister may by order, whenever he so thinks proper, amend any order made by him under the foregoing paragraph of this sub-section or under this paragraph;
(c) the Minister may by order, whenever he so thinks proper, revoke any order made by him under this section;
(d) whenever and so long as there is in force an order made by the Minister under this section increasing the number of Dublin assistant city managers, the number of Dublin assistant city managers shall be increased in accordance with such order or an order amending such order;
(e) it shall be obligatory on the Minister so to exercise the powers conferred on him by this section and the powers conferred on him by this Act in relation to the number of assistant county managers for the County of Dublin as to secure that the number of Dublin assistant city managers shall always be the same as the number of Dublin assistant county managers.
Would the Minister say what is the object of this amendment?
It is proposed in Dublin to begin with a minimum of two assistant managers. In Cork it is proposed to reduce the number of assistant managers from three to two. That is the minimum. Power, however, is being taken to increase that number if experience shows that an extra assistant manager is required in either Dublin or Cork—that is, after consultation with the council.
I have an open mind on the matter, but I would like to point out to the Minister that we have three county health districts in County Cork. The present manager is a very good man and is conversant with probably every detail of county management. There is a great amount of work to be done in these three county health areas, and what the Minister is proposing may turn out to be a tremendous labour for the two assistant county managers, especially in view of the fact that at present there are three county board of health secretaries carrying out the work in their respective areas. I am afraid that what the Minister is proposing may prove too much for two men.
The Deputy must remember that the secretaries to the board of health will be retained and will be able to deal successfully with the work that is being done in the present board of health districts. As I have said, if experience shows that an extra assistant manager is required the council will be consulted.
But, in the interim, I am afraid that considerable confusion is likely to arise. In future the members will only be dealing with their own districts. The assistant manager who will probably be one of the present board of health secretaries may find some difficulty in acquainting himself with the work to be done in areas in which he had not formerly served. I think that greater efficiency would be obtained by having three assistant managers.
I do not think it will work out that way.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 8:—
New section. Before Section 12, in page 8, a new section inserted as follows:—
12.—(1) This section applies to the following offices and to no other offices, that is to say:—
(a) the two offices of Dublin assistant county manager created by this Act,
(b) the two offices of assistant county manager for the County of Cork created by this Act, and
(c) the office of assistant county manager for the County of Tipperary, North Riding, created by this Act, and
(d) the office of assistant county manager for the County of Tipperary, South Riding, created by this Act, and
(e) the two offices of Dublin assistant city manager created by this Act.
(2) In this section the expression "first appointment" means the first permanent appointment and shall not be construed as referring to a temporary appointment made by the Minister pending such permanent appointment.
(3) Notwithstanding anything contained in any other section of this Act, the following provisions shall apply and have effect in relation to the first appointment to any office to which this section applies, that is to say:—
(a) Section 5 of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926 (No. 39 of 1926), shall not apply or have effect in relation to the first appointment to such office and Sections 6, 8 and 9 of that Act shall have effect in relation to such first appointment subject to the provisions of the next following paragraph of this sub-section;
(b) the Minister shall request the Local Appointments Commissioners to recommend to him a person for the first appointment to such office and those commissioners shall select (otherwise than by competitive examination) and recommend to the Minister under the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926 (No. 39 of 1926), one and only one person for such first appointment, and thereupon the person so selected and recommended shall become and be appointed by virtue of such recommendation as on and from such day as the Minister shall by order appoint in that behalf;
(c) in carrying out the duties imposed on them by the next preceding paragraph of this sub-section, the Local Appointments Commissioners shall have regard to the provisions (where relevant) of this Act giving priority of recommendation to a particular person or requiring two particular offices to be held by one and the same person;
(d) nothing in this section shall prejudice or affect the appointment by this Act of a named person to an office to which this section applies if, in the events which happen, such appointment becomes effective.
Mr. Brennan
What has the Minister in mind? I know what priority of recommendation means.
There is only one Dublin assistant city manager to be appointed in addition to the one nominated in the Bill. There will be two Cork County assistant managers and one assistant county manager for Tipperary, North Riding. In Dublin you have already one assistant named in the Act, and you are really only giving preference to the county secretary so far as the other vacancy is concerned, that is, that the county secretary in Dublin will have a preference for the remaining assistant city managership. It only relates to the first appointment.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 9:—
Section 14. In sub-section (2), in page 10, after the word "council" in line 54, the following words added:—"or, in the case of grouped counties, by the chairman of the council of such one of those counties as the Minister shall direct".
This is intended to provide against the very remote possibility, where a deputy manager is to be appointed by a chairman, of a deadlock between two counties. The Minister must specify in that case the chairman who shall nominate the deputy manager. That can only arise where the deputy manager would have been suspended or would have been out of the county, and in that case unable to consult with the chairman himself.
Mr. Brennan
Is not that an unsatisfactory arrangement?
That question was raised with me in the Seanad and it was suggested that the Minister himself should do it.
Mr. Brennan
You have to order two different people living in two different counties. First of all you must have disagreement between those two before the Minister acts. Some action is urgently required but as it stands now those two people must meet first and then disagree. I think that is delaying a very urgent matter because this will always be an urgent matter. I would prefer the Minister himself having the power to deal with the matter first.
That view was expressed in the Seanad, too. I would not mind changing it but I do not want to hold up the Bill. In practice I do not think it will lead to any delay.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 10:—
Section 14. Before sub-section (5), in page 11, a new sub-section inserted as follows:—
(5) Whenever a deputy county manager is appointed under this section for each of two grouped counties, one and the same person shall be appointed to be the deputy county manager for each of those counties, and whenever a deputy city manager is appointed for the County Borough of Dublin and a deputy county manager is appointed under this section for the County of Dublin, one and the same person shall be appointed to be such deputy city manager and to be such deputy county manager.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 11:—
Section 16. In sub-section (5), page 12, lines 24 and 25 deleted and the word "member" deleted in line 26 and the words "the presence of a member or any of a number of members" substituted.
It is proposed to make this more flexible. It may not always be easy to get the chairman and it might be better to get a member of the council. It is only a formal matter.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendments Nos. 12 and 14:—
12. Section 21. In sub-section (1), page 14, line 41, the word "in" deleted and the word "for" substituted.
14. Section 22. In sub-section (1), page 15, line 14, the word "in" deleted and the word "for" substituted.
These are drafting amendments. It might be held that he might have prepared the estimates before the financial year began. As it is he would have to prepare them in the year.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendments Nos. 13, 15, 16 and 17:—
Section 21. In sub-section (1), page 14, line 42, the word "at" deleted and the word "during" substituted and the word "time" deleted and the words "period and in the prescribed form" substituted.
Section 22. In sub-section (1), page 15, line 15, the word "at" deleted and the word "during" substituted and the word "time" deleted and the words "period and in the prescribed form" substituted.
Section 24. In sub-section (1), page 16, in line 41 before the word "consent" the words "for any local financial year" inserted; all words from the word "in" in line 42 to the word "expenses" in line 46 deleted; in line 46 before the word "specified" the words "for any particular purpose" inserted and in lines 47 and 48 the words "particular power, function, or duty" deleted and the words "financial year" substituted.
Section 24. In sub-section (2), page 16, all words from the words "in respect" in line 52 to the word "year" in line 56 deleted and the words "for any particular purpose specified in the estimate of expenses for such local financial year" substituted; in line 56 before the word "amount" the word "total" inserted, and in line 57 the words "power, function or duty" deleted and the word "purpose" substituted.
I am taking these amendments together. Representations have been made by the secretaries of the county councils, and I think the same question was raised here on the Committee Stage in this House that they feel that it is quite easy and quite possible to have four main heads for your Estimates. But within these four main heads there may be a number of sub-heads, and while it is not proposed to allow a saving in one of the four heads to be applied to making up a loss in one of the other heads—for example, to apply savings on the roads to repairs to mental hospitals—it is proposed to give the manager power within the heads to make a saving on any sub-head and that he can apply that towards making good the loss on another sub-head. It must go to the other sub-heads.
Towards the loss on one of the other sub-heads?
Yes.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 18:
Section 29. At the end of the section a new sub-section added as follows:—
(4) Whenever it appears to the Minister to be necessary in order to enable the county manager for a county to attend the first annual meeting of the council of such county after the first election of members of such council held after the commencement of this Act or to attend the first meeting (whether annual or quarterly) of an elective body for which he is manager after the first election of members of such elective body held after the commencement of this Act, it shall be lawful for the Minister by order to appoint the day and hour at which the first annual meeting of such council or the first meeting (whether annual or quarterly) of such elective body after the first election of members of such council or elective body (as the case may be) after the commencement of this Act shall be held, and, where the Minister so appoints the day and hour for any such meeting, such meeting shall, notwithstanding anything contained in the Local Elections Act, 1927 (No. 39 of 1927), be held on the day and at the hour so appointed.
It is considered desirable that the manager should be present at the various meetings of the public bodies of his county or I should say at the annual meetings, and this amendment is to prevent the clashing of those meetings. In other words, in order to enable the manager to be present at each, it is thought desirable to fix separate dates where meetings clash.
Mr. Brennan
For the meetings of the joint councils?
Yes, and joint bodies in the same counties.
I can hardly agree with giving the Minister that power. I think the manager should be present at the meetings. I think the public bodies should appoint a day on which the manager could be present.
But that is all that is intended. It is to enable the manager to be present at the annual meeting of each body.
It is all right, if that is all.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendments Nos. 19 and 20:—
Section 33. In sub-section (5), page 21, after the word "thereof" in line 27 the following words added:—"subject to compliance with the rules made by the Minister under this section".
Section 33. In sub-section (6), page 21, after the word "hospitals" in line 29, the words "and of visiting members of such committees" inserted; and in line 30, after the word "committees" the words "and such visiting members" inserted.
These two are taken together. It is to provide that rules be made for visits by the visiting committee who are to visit these hospitals. This is for the purpose of setting out these rules and regulations.
Mr. Brennan
I take it the Minister has fully covered the question of visiting committees?
Yes.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 21:—
Second Schedule. In paragraph 16, page 25, the words "a public" in lines 12 and 13 deleted and the word "another" substituted.
Mr. Brennan
What is the meaning of this amendment?
It was raised in the Seanad that such bodies as the National Health Insurance Society might not be covered in the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 22:—
Second Schedule. Before paragraph 17, in page 25, a new paragraph inserted as follows:—
17.—The nomination of a person to be a candidate at an election of a person to the office of President of Ireland.
This was to remove doubts too. I did not think myself it was necessary.
That is a peculiar sort of phrase, the "President of Ireland."
I did not think it was necessary to put it there, but it was to remove doubts that were raised by some Senator.
Mr. Brennan
We could scarcely put it there in relation to the President of the U.S.A.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 23:
Third Schedule. In sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 10, page 27, line 32, the word "expenditure" deleted and the word "payments" substituted.
This too is a drafting amendment.
Question put and agreed to.
Agreement reported on amendments Nos. 1 to 23; which are reported and agreed to. The Seanad will be notified accordingly.