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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 28 Nov 1940

Vol. 81 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 63—Army.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Breise ná raghaidh thar £3,099,181 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun an Airm agus Cúltaca an Airm (maraon le Deontaisí áirithe i gCabhair) fé sna hAchtanna Fórsáí Cosanta (Forálacha Sealadacha), agus chun Costaisí áirithe riaracháin ina dtaobh san; chun Costaisí Oifig an Aire Cóimhriartha Cosantais; chun Costaisí maidir le triail agus coinneáil dhaoine áirithe (Uimh. 28 de 1939, Uimh. 1 de 1940 agus Uimh. 16 de 1940); chun Costaisí áirithe fé sna hAchtanna um Chiontaí in aghaidh an Stáit, 1939 agus 1940 (Uimh. 13 de 1939 agus Uimh. 2 de 1940) agus fén Acht um Réamhchúram in aghaidh Aer-Ruathar, 1939 (Uimh. 21 de 1939); agus chun Cúl-Sholáthairtí Leighis i gcóir Osbidéal Síbhialta.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £3,099,181 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1941, for the Army and the Army Reserve (including certain Grants-in-Aid) under the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts, and for certain administrative Expenses in connection therewith; for the Expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Coordination of Defensive Measures; for Expenses in connection with the trial and detention of certain persons (No. 28 of 1939, No. 1 of 1940 and No. 16 of 1940); for certain Expenses under the Offences against the State Acts, 1939 and 1940 (No. 15 of 1939 and No. 2 of 1940) and the Air-raid Precautions Act, 1939 (No. 21 of 1939); and for Reserve Medical Supplies for Civilian Hospitals.

In moving this Supplementary Estimate I regret that it was not possible to give the House more time for its consideration. It was not possible to do so, as circumstances over which I had no control necessitated the Estimate being moved urgently.

This Supplementary Estimate for the Army Vote, 1940-41, totalling £3,099,181, is necessitated (1) by the expansion of the Army; (2) by the employment of a larger number of civilians; (3) by higher expenditure on ordinary stores; (4) by increased deliveries of warlike stores; (5) by additional equipment required for A.R.P. services; (6) by the increased cost of miscellaneous services consequent on the development of the Army; and (7) by a special provision to purchase medical supplies to provide for civilian casualties in the case of air raids.

The revised figures include the direct cost of the recently formed Construction Corps.

There is a new item of £66,000 for reserve medical supplies to provide for civilian casualties in the event of air raids.

The net increases under the seven headings outlined are, therefore, briefly as follows: pay and allowances of the Army (including Reserve), £1,869,661; pay and allowances of civilians, £99,502; ordinary stores, £316,504; warlike stores, £502,997; A.R.P., £217,388; miscellaneous services, £27,129; reserve medical supplies, £66,000; total net supplementary, £3,099,181.

In introducing the annual Estimate, it was stated that our capital commitments in respect of military and naval stores totalled on 31st March, 1940, approximately £3,385,251, that payments on foot of those commitments were approximately £727,815, and that against the outstanding liabilities we were providing in the Estimate a sum of £460,651. These figures must now be revised. Our capital commitments in respect of such stores up to 31st October, 1940, now total £4,157,475 and payments against them total £1,077,740, leaving an outstanding liability of £3,079,735. Due to the fact that deliveries of such stores have been and are expected to be greater than was anticipated when the annual Estimate was introduced, we are providing in this Estimate against capital liabilities the sum of £963,648 instead of the £460,651 originally taken. Should deliveries between now and the end of the year be greater than we anticipate, or should the expansion of the Army proceed at a greater pace than we expect at present, a further supplementary may be necessary before 31st March, 1941.

After yesterday's disclosure in the House, Deputies were entitled to expect some reference to the situation that was disclosed by the Minister. Perhaps the Minister would take the opportunity of taking the House again into his confidence, as to what action he proposes to take, if any, in connection with the story that was then disclosed.

Does the Deputy want me to reply now? I understand Deputy Hurley is going to raise this question and to place facts and figures before the House. Naturally, I am very anxious to hear the facts and figures.

I thought the Minister would have had some different policy to announce than the one announced yesterday, as his statement then was to the effect that he empowered a Deputy to compile a list of persons to be employed at certain work. It was to give the Minister the opportunity of telling the House what action he proposes to take now that I mentioned it, he having, apparently, seen the error of his ways. If he does not propose to do that I can deal with it on the Estimate.

I was rather anxious to hear what Deputy Hurley had to say respecting the facts and figures that he proposed to produce here to-day. I will take this opportunity to explain the position that arose. In the first place, I wish to say that it is not a principle of mine to secure employment for individuals in the manner in which employment was secured for individuals on this occasion. On this particular occasion I was informed on the Friday afternoon in question that a certain number of workmen were required to undertake work of a constructive character within the precincts of a military post. I have had a considerable amount of difficulty in dealing with cases of workmen employed in posts, who were found to have given information to bodies to whom they should not have given it. I have had anonymous letters in respect of those employed in posts, I have had letters written over the names of individuals, and I have had police reports in this respect: and I have had to take action by having such suspected individuals removed from the precincts of these barracks. It is very necessary that persons who are employed in these posts should be at least trustworthy people.

On the Friday on which I was suddenly asked to find something like 100 workers—between 70 and 100; I am not quite sure of the figures—I had to look around to see where those people could be secured. As I mentioned yesterday, the labour exchange is not concerned as to whether they can be trusted within the precincts of a barracks or not; they are concerned mainly with other aspects of the case. In every case I have sought to have people employed through the medium of labour exchanges. On this occasion, because of the shortness of the notice, I began to ask myself where I was to secure this information.I thought of several people but, knowing that Deputy O'Sullivan was very closely and actively connected with the Local Security Force, I asked my secretary to get in touch with the police and see if they could get in touch with him. They were successful in getting in touch with Deputy O'Sullivan. Deputy O'Sullivan was given the instructions which I gave to my private secretary and which were to the effect that these men should comply with the ordinary regulations in respect to being registered at the employment exchange, that they should be people who would be regarded as being trustworthy, that they should be members of the Local Security Force or men who had given national service in the past.

The circumstances were such as I have described. I was also told that the reason for the urgency of this work was due to the fact that members of the forces were living in conditions in Haulbowline which were not suitable and which would have to be remedied at the first possible moment. I was assured that an estimate had been secured in respect to the time in which the work could be completed and that the time given was not sooner than the 31st March. The Army authorities were gravely concerned regarding that, and said that they could not wait so long, that the premises would have to be put into proper living condition in a very much shorter time, and it was then proposed that they should do the work by direct labour. I am glad to say that the work is practically complete, although I think it is only about a month or two since it was commenced.The men who were employed have in every sense given satisfaction, according to the engineering authorities, and the work has been carried out even more expeditiously than they themselves anticipated. They write that down, possibly, to the enthusiasm of the men because of their connections with the national defence forces and because they entered into the completion of the work in that spirit.

The complexion that Deputy Hurley is endeavouring to place on this is an unfair one. I want to assure the House that, as far as I am concerned —and I am sure the House will not suspect me of doing other than I am stating—on every occasion that it has been possible to provide work for individuals who have given national service, irrespective of the political party to which they have belonged, I have done so and I will continue to do so—always provided, other things being equal, that their conditions are such as entitle them to work and that they are registered in the ordinary way at the labour exchange.

I have spoken to Deputy O'Sullivan. I have asked him if he carried out the instructions as they were passed to him by my secretary. He assures me that he conveyed those instructions exactly as he received them, not to the secretary of a Fianna Fáil Cumann but to the secretary of the Old I.R.A. Association in Cork which, I understand, is composed of every phase of political opinion in the country.

In Cork?

Yes, the secretary of the local organisation there. I understand that there is no local organisation in Cobh.

I cannot appreciate your innocence in that matter.

I gave figures yesterday as to where the men were employed from. If they are disputed, I am prepared to hear them being disputed, but the fact remains that Deputy O'Sullivan himself, who did this work in the same spirit as I asked him to do it in and that was as a Local Security Force officer, assures me that he does not know the name of one individual who has been employed on this scheme, and that his interest in it was merely the interest that he should have taken, on a request from me, to secure from the two groups mentioned the people asked for.

Even putting the best possible complexion upon the Minister's defence, I think it is a very poor one, and one which I hope the House will not have to listen to from any other Minister. He has given himself all the credit he possibly could, given himself a character from Deputy O'Sullivan, a character from the engineer who had a job to do which he gave him to do, given himself a character from the men employed on that job; and, having covered himself with all these testimonials, he says that his responsibility has ended. The whole thing is most unsavoury, taken in the light of everything that has transpired in connection with this Army administration.It is probably the most objectionable of all the different administrations of the Government that we have had to review. Last week, or the week before, we had an apology from the head of the Government, that the responsibility for not being able to have more arms was not the Government's—that it was not their fault. One would imagine that it was to a group of children the Government was speaking. Whose fault is it? Who is charged by this House and by the country with the responsibility for having the Army in a proper condition? The Government, of course. It did not get its responsibility yesterday or two years ago. It got it eight years ago. It was trusted then and it has failed, on its own statements, in its job. In these circumstances, of course, it is a mockery to discuss the Minister's statement on this Vote.

This Estimate is introduced to-day with a very brief and cursory statement by the Minister for Defence. However, as we all know, the material of this Estimate was laid before the Defence Conference, and I am obliged to say that any information we wanted was given to us; but it is important to add this, because it is something that I am afraid this House and the country sometimes loses sight of: there is not in this country a national Government, and the duties of the constituent parts of the Defence Conference must be borne in mind if the nature of the work done there, and the extent of this House's delegation of its duty, is to be appreciated. The Defence Conference consists of two elements, one composed of the Government and the other of the Opposition Parties in this House for a restricted purpose: consultation and advice in regard to matters of defence. It is the duty of the Government to define policy. They are the elected Government of the country. They command a clear majority of this House. No matter of policy is relevant to the proceedings of the Defence Conference. The duty of the Opposition, and this duty the Opposition have discharged, on that conference is to consult and advise with the Government on matters concerning defence within the four corners of Government policy. It is neither the right nor the duty of the Opposition to define that policy or to control that policy. It is important to remember that it is not within the power of the Opposition to define or control that policy. We went into this arrangement with our eyes open, knowing the ambit of our function and prepared to do our best within that ambit, and so far, I think, useful work has been done, but the usefulness of that work would be gravely jeopardised if all sides did not keep before their minds the fact that the limits of our co-operation are clearly defined by the limits of a policy which we of the Opposition have had no hand in forming and no responsibility for putting into operation.

Frankly, I do not believe that it is practical politics, in a time of emergency approximating to a state of war, to discuss in detail our defence arrangements in the public forum. There might be many matters which could profitably be discussed arising out of defence if times were normal. The advantages of discretion in existing circumstances, however, in my opinion, far out-weigh whatever advantages might result from a full and comprehensive discussion at the present time. Now I believe, Sir, although my views on Government policy are pretty well known, and they are known not to coincide with that Government policy, that the limited measure of co-operation which has been proceeding has a very material value, and I believe that, so long as we can make it continue, we are doing a service for this country. But there is no use concealing that I, in common with every member of this House, listened with consternation to the tale that was told here about what happened at Haulbowline. I listened with regret to the comments of the Minister for Defence upon it. I could understand any man committing an error of judgment. I could understand any man, in an hour of emergency, precipitately adopting a course of action without due reflection as to how that course of action would appear to other persons. I could see myself, if I were pressed in difficult conditions, taking measures while what was foremost in my mind was the safety of the State and the preventing of sabotage, or some other deplorable incident, from the actions of ill-intentioned persons: I could conceive myself taking steps in that situation which, examined a month or six weeks later, would be open to the gravest possible misinterpretation; but if such circumstances did transpire I would feel it incumbent on me to say publicly: "I admit, looking at the course of action I adopted with the best intentions in the world (1) that it was open to the gravest possible misinterpretations in the country, and (2) were it accepted as a regular or justifiable proceeding in the situation I have outlined, it might constitute a precedent which would be wholly undesirable from the point of view of the public service and the public life of the country."

I think if an approach of that kind were made to this situation, the Government would not find a captious desire in any part of this House to create unjustifiable suspicions, but if the Minister gets up and says: "I have no apology to make to the House for doing it: I did it for the purpose of securing the service of certain types of persons on the ground of their national record, and I think it was a proper procedure to pursue," then all I can say is, I do not think it was. I think it was a very improper procedure to pursue.I think there were plenty of persons in whose discretion and in whose detachment confidence could be placed other than members of the Minister's Party from 120 miles distant in West Cork. How, in the name of Providence, any man, however well-intentioned, and I have no reason to believe that Deputy O'Sullivan is anything but well-intentioned, living 120 miles away, could have intimate knowledge of the background and activities of the residents of Cobh, surpasses me to understand.I live almost as near to Cobh as Deputy O'Sullivan, and I live in the County Mayo, and I do not know the name or address, the background or history or antecedents or the current of activities of any single individual in Cobh. Possibly, Deputy O'Sullivan knows a little more than that, but he cannot know very much more. To suggest that, out of all the responsible persons in the Cobh area, he was the only person to whom this task could be committed seems to me to be unsatisfactory.

Now, there will be those who will say that it might be very much better to leave this matter between Deputy Hurley and the Minister. If I believed it was in the interests of this country to precipitate a gross public scandal at the present time, of a character envisaged by the Minister's statement yesterday, I think I would perhaps have concurred in that view, but I do not think it is in the interests of the country to do that. If it has got to be done, then it has got to be done, and we have got to take the consequences.

I would very much sooner see an explanation vouchsafed to the House which would carry conviction to every side of the House that, while there might have been an error of judgment, and imprudence, perhaps, this is not one emerging incident of a considered policy of corrupt interference with the proper procedure for the appointment of public servants. If conviction of that cannot be carried to all sides of the House, we have to face the other thing and meet it as best we can, but it would be a very grave misfortune, in my opinion, if that has to be done, and it is for that reason that I have intervened at this stage, firstly, to emphasise the limits of the cooperation which the Defence Conference enables us and requires us to give to the Government, and, secondly, to emphasise what appears to me the serious gravity of the possibilities of misunderstanding throughout the country which may result from the version of the Haulbowline incident given by Deputy Hurley and the comment made upon it by the Minister for Defence.

Inside the stockade of rifles and other armaments for which this Vote is expected to pay, we have here an Irish Parliament, and I think that some kind of a common voice ought to go from that Parliament in regard to this Estimate. This Parliament here is an expression of the electorate's votes; it is built up here to look after the general interests of the people. It has serious responsibilities and serious duties, and in so far as the principal duty which has attracted its attention, or which has been referred to it by the Government in this emergency, is concerned, I think it is doing its best to discharge it and to shoulder its responsibilities in the best possible way.

A very large number of voices in this House are sent to inform, guide and direct the Government in its policy. It might be a little inconvenient and it might not be very helpful if all these voices were raised to-day to inform, guide and instruct the Government in the realms of foreign affairs and defence; but outside foreign affairs and defence, and because of the reaction of foreign affairs and defence on the country, some of the other responsibilities that fall on Deputies are very seriously increased, and up to the present because of circumstances which we all appreciate, the voices which inform and direct Parliament have not had an opportunity of looking after, to the extent to which they perhaps ought to be looked after, the other duties and responsibilities which, in the general interests of the people, fall on Parliament.

It is necessary, in view of the estimate of the state of affairs made by the Government, and in view of the appeal made by the Government, to build up our defence forces in the way in which they are being built up and to pay for that building up. There are very many people who will consider £3,000,000 odd a big extra bill for the Army. That is a matter over which the people, in the present circumstances of the country, have no control, and it would be unfortunate if the men in the Army or those persons who, in voluntary and other ways, are giving assistance in the strengthening of the country from a defence point of view at present, should be made to feel that they were in any way a financial blister on the country. I think we ought to make it clear that this money is necessary to support the machinery which the Government is building up for the country's defence and that if it is realised that more money is necessary, more money will have to be found.

The appeal I should like to go from Parliament to our Defence Forces, our Local Security Force and everybody who has a hand in building up our defences is that they should expend all their energies in working to complete our defensive organisation and should realise that every day is important.We appreciate very much the enormous amount of work which has been thrown not only upon the senior Army officers but upon the senior Army officers in handling the work of increasing the Army to its present strength. A very substantial number of young men, new men, have been brought into the Army. They have had to be organised and trained, and only somebody who is in close touch with, or has had some experience of, Army work, will realise the amount of work which has had to be done in a loyal, devoted and efficient way by a large number of both senior and junior officers. The same applies to the Guards throughout the whole country in the service they render in holding out the hand of guidance and assistance to the young men who have come forward to organise and work the Local Security Force. We appreciate all the work that has been done in that way and we appreciate the work done by people connected with A.R.P. and first-aid services, but I should like to call out to them that there is a time factor in their work, perhaps related, but not necessarily related, to defence, and it is in its relation to other matters that I would call on them to speed up their work.

The number of men in the "A" section alone of the Local Security Force is something like 90,000. These men are not only soldiers but citizens, and in so far as Parliament has to be guided on economic, political and social work inside the country, they have not only their rights but their duties to watch in the present situation and to help in the present situation by action, advice and public speaking. There is a danger that, just at the present stage of building up our Defence Forces, the exercise of our rights and our duties to discuss public policy may have a detrimental effect on the consolidation of men, who have varying opinions on economic matters, or on incidental aspects of policy into an armed force that will stand solidly shoulder to shoulder against any danger and in pursuit of the policy dictated by the Parliament here. Discussion of economic, social and political matters here cannot indefinitely be deferred. Serious as they are, every day of the present emergency that passes, with the reaction of outside events on us, increases the necessity for thought and, therefore, increases the necessity for discussion of these matters.

I should like to feel that Parliament as a whole, in passing this Estimate, appeals, in the first place, to the men and women connected with our defensive and first-aid services throughout the country to speed up their work and to perfect their organisation, so that we may know that such forces as are standing there are standing ready to be operated at any time in connection with any emergency; but that as they are standing so solidly and so clearly as soldiers and workers in a defence section, that solidarity and strength will not be in any way injured by differences of opinion on other matters, because what we want the armed forces of the country to protect is the sovereignty of our Parliament here.

What we want our Parliament for is an exchange of ideas and opinions, illuminated by the exercise of that reason and intelligence given to all of us. In that fashion, we shall find the best way out of our difficulties. The best way will not be a way with which everybody will agree. But it will be the way which would be chosen, after free discussion on Irish public platforms and in an Irish Parliament, by men and women who were shouldering their duties and responsibilities and thinking about their country's problems.

I want to say, again, that this money is necessary for the purpose for which it is asked, that we appreciate the way in which the country has risen to build up our Defence Forces, that we appreciate, particularly, the action of the men who are bearing the major share of responsibility and that we appeal to them to realise that they are there to protect the sovereignty of the Irish Parliament and that, in that Parliament, various views will be expressed in discussing the important matters which have to be discussed and that we do hope that, in the same ready and intelligent spirit in which they have come to build up the Defence Forces, they will come to understand that the expression of varying views on particular subjects here is not undermining the Irish Parliament but building it up and that it can only be built up, and do the work which an Irish Parliament should do for its people if there is that expression of opinion here. The more serious the dangers, the more must Parliament be alive to all the circumstances.

I listened with some interest to Deputy Mulcahy and I am rather at a loss to know at what he was driving. He spoke about dangers, about rights and duties and about people undermining the loyalty of the members of the Defence Forces.

The Deputy cannot have been listening to me.

The Deputy spoke of the danger of talk by some people weakening the loyalty of the Defence Forces. I do not suggest that the Deputy was referring to me, but I want to say that amongst no element in the country is loyalty greater than amongst the working classes. No element has fought harder or with more determination for the freedom of the country than the working classes. That loyalty is there still. I want, however, to urge upon the House and upon the Government that economic defence and security is just as important as military defence and security. What I am worrying about is the fact that while we have so many men in the Defence Forces, we have, at the same time, so many thousands idle who should be producing goods and wealth for the country. I have great respect for any man who is ready to make sacrifices for the country. Deputy Mulcahy referred to the Gárda force and, from my experience, I think that that would be a model force for any country. They have stood up against certain influences and have done their duty manfully, without fear or favour. So long as we have such a force, we are fairly safe. I am not so happy at all about the economic position. While I am agreeing to the expenditure on the Army, I think that we should also be in a position to find money for the economic interests of the country, to safeguard our people and keep them from the poverty line, on which many of them are. That is a danger. It is hard to expect much loyalty from a man who does not know where to find his breakfast and who is up against a desperate problem of poverty.

I have referred to the case of a man who joined the Army recently in Cork and who had been unemployed for some time. He has six children and he was receiving 19/- in assistance, while his wife was receiving 6/- as a blind pension. The family were, therefore, receiving 25/- and were paying 4/- per week of that for rent. The moment that man joined the Army the 6/- blind pension was taken from his wife. In addition, 1/9 was deducted from his allowance when his eldest boy reached 16 years of age a short time ago. I want to impress on the Government that if they want people to defend the country they must give them something to defend. They must be given some hope for the future. In the war against the British Empire, the civil war and the economic war, the working classes stood up to the test 100 per cent. They never murmured while the struggles were on and, even if they had gone farther, they would not have murmured.I should like the Government to take notice of that because I am afraid there is too much complacency and too much indifference regarding the position of large masses of our people.

Of our population of 2,968,000, there are only 1,339,000 over 14 years of age usefully occupied. That number includes messenger boys drawing from 7/6 to 10/- per week, and the poor little girls who are only on part-time in some of our factories. While we have 137,000 old age pensioners, we have over 120,000 unemployed. In view of that number who are on the border line of starvation, we have 2,500 persons who, after paying income-tax and surtax, amounting to £515,000, have still between them a net income of over £8,500,000. I say with a full sense of responsibility that, while that position prevails, we cannot have that economic security and that loyalty amongst the masses of the people which we wish to have. So much for that. I hope the Government will take heed of what I have said.

I want to put a few questions on the Estimate before us. I should like to know how many gas masks we have. Did the Minister receive any tenders for the making of these gas masks from any Irish firm? Were the prices quoted by an Irish firm lower than those quoted by the firm who has supplied the masks? Was a second price quoted for these masks by an Irish firm since the first tender and, if so, was it cheaper than the first? Is the Minister aware that machinery was put in and workers trained to make these gas masks in this country? I should also like to know from the Minister when the last order was placed for those gas masks. Further, I want to know the name of the firm which supplied them; I want to know whether they have a local agent in this country and, if so, who he is and what commission is being paid to him.

Is this one of the £8,000,000 boys?

I do not know; probably he is.

There is a number of items here of which I should like the Minister to give some explanation.Before I come to them, I should like to ask whether the Minister is prepared to tell the House and the country what is the position of the Army at the moment. How far has it got with regard to the defence of this country? How far has it got with regard to the buying of aeroplanes, guns, and so on? Under sub-head A (1) a sum is provided for military education for officers abroad. Is that for the current year or last year? Are there some officers of this State abroad at the moment? Sub-head A (3) deals with the expenses of equitation teams at horse shows. That was apparently for last year? I did not know that the jumping team was abroad last year at all. Sub-head G refers to lodging, subsistence and other allowances. There is an additional sum required for lodging, fuel and light and children's allowances, and subsistence allowance. I should like the Minister to tell us what that is? What I am getting at is this; when a war is on or when the country is preparing for war everybody is asked to have a hush-hush policy, but when the war is over the scandals are exposed, everybody impeaches everybody else, and asks how those things were permitted to occur. We have only to throw our minds back to 20 or 25 years ago to the scandals in Great Britain with regard to the running of the last war.

I should like the Minister to relate sub-heads I and J. Sub-head I refers to the conveyance of stores, etc.; an additional sum of £6,880 is required for the conveyance of military stores. Sub-head J deals with mechanical transport; an additional sum is required for the purchase, hire and maintenance of mechanical transport, £180,897. The total under the two sub-heads is roughly £187,000. Now, if we are buying mechanical transport and equipment, surely that transport is for the purpose of the conveyance of stores for the Army? I should like, therefore, to have an explanation from the Minister as to what is the meaning of the two sums. Could not the sum of £6,880 be dispensed with? Surely the sum of £180,897 for mechanical transport is sufficient to carry military stores from Donegal to Cork altogether? I take it that the stores are all being transported by mechanical transport. I should like to hear from the Minister how he justifies that sum.

Sub-head M deals with clothing and equipment, and the additional sum required is £438,495. I am not saying that that sum is not required, but what I should like the House and the country to be assured on is that this money is being economically spent, first of all with regard to the giving out of those contracts, and secondly, that very active and stringent steps are being taken to see that the best is got for this money. Again, one has only to throw back one's mind to 20 or 25 years ago to see the scandals that took place in matters of this kind. Under sub-head K, provisions and allowances in lieu, the additional sum required is £415,041. That seems to me a very substantial sum to be given out in the way of allowances, because appeals are being made every week to the public in general with regard to the condition of supplies in the State, and as the Army is not actually at war I do not see why some of those stringencies which it is endeavoured to impose on the civilian population would not be applied to the Army. I do not think they should be any less patriotic in that regard, at least when they are not on actual service. If they were at war, and having to endure all the suffering involved in war, I would not raise a matter of this kind. Even in the European war, we know what took place. We know there were endless millions' worth of food wasted out of pure recklessness arising out of administration. I should like the Minister to see to it that, while those men are reasonably well fed, they will not waste food while other people are in want, and while everybody is being asked to make sacrifices with regard to the consumption of food. We had a speech, I think on Sunday last, from the Taoiseach telling the people that the condition of this country may become graver and graver. I take that warning as being accurate, and if it applies to the public generally I think it should also apply to the Army.

Sub-head CC refers to reserve medical supplies for civilian hospitals, and the note to that sub-head reads:—

"The question of recovering this expenditure from the local authority, etc., concerned is under consideration."

I would like the Minister to tell the House and the country if these supplies have been already purchased. Are they in the hands of local authorities? If not, is he procuring them, and is he transmitting them to the local authorities to be retained as an emergency supply? I would like to hear from him also in regard to this sum of £66,000 in the Estimate for reserve medical supplies for civilian hospitals; how it is going to be administered; what check he will have upon it; whether it is to be recovered; whether it comes out of direct taxation or out of the local authorities in rates, I think close watch should be kept on that item to see that with regard to purchase and distribution there is no waste or loss. Where medical supplies are being transmitted into the hands of medical officers, are they in charge and are they being properly stored so that any that is on hands over a considerable time will not go to loss?

There is a sum of £6,000,000 in the Estimate for this year and I think it is only right, seeing the sacrifices the people are being asked to make to contribute this money, that the House should see that scrupulous care is taken by the Minister. He has got now an assistant Minister and a Parliamentary Secretary and I think rigid supervision should be applied to the administration by his Department of that £6,000,000. The county would have been aghast some years ago if such a sum had been proposed to it. I am not saying it is being badly spent now at all. On the contrary. I only want to see that if money is taken from the people the last penny of it is well spent and that none of it goes to loss. It is a natural thing always when a huge organisation like an army is got together that the disposition is to waste and to be extravagant. There are hundreds of people in this country carrying on business on a restricted supply of petrol. They are not able to carry on their normal business owing to the restrictions in petrol. I hope the Minister will see that with regard to the Army there is no reckless running about of mechanical transport or wastage of petrol. The same thing applies to food and clothing. I suppose it is hardly fair to ask the Minister to tell the House and the country how far he has actually got with regard to effective equipment for the protection of this country. We have a considerable Army now and I am sure the country is anxious to know if that considerable Army is in a position to give an account of itself should the occasion arise either in the immediate or distant future.

The introduction of a Supplementary Estimate for a sum such as this is a sad commentary on the sanity of the world. If the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, a couple of years ago had introduced an Estimate such as this in order to provide houses for the working classes or similar worthy object he would have been told that we could not afford such a thing. I am not saying we can afford this £3,000,000 either but I suppose it will be paid in some way, somehow.It must be. On that point I would like to say a little more on the lines of Deputy McMenamin's closing words on the question of economy. One knows from previous experience that in times of war and similar times it is extremely easy for waste to develop in an army. Things are very easily come by. The case is made that such and such is urgently necessary and supply is fairly easy. There is a tendency to waste. There is another question. I would like to know if the Minister has any arrangements in the various commands for an officer particularly to look into that aspect of the matter and also to look into the question of salvage.

There is only one item on the actual Estimate that I wish to refer to and that is P.1. I take it that amongst the additional equipment to be purchased will be further supplies of steel helmets. I know they are extremely difficult to get at the moment. We know, for instance, that even to-day there are wardens in Great Britain who are carrying out their duties without steel helmets and, therefore, we cannot expect to have supplies here. Possibly, in due course, they will be forthcoming, and what I am anxious to know from the Minister is, if he is able to secure supplies sufficient for his requirements, if there is any surplus, will it be available to industrial concerns who require such helmets for their emergency people, roof watchers and people in charge of fire fighting who, up to this, have not been able to get the necessary steel helmets?

I agree that it is very difficult to discuss this Estimate thoroughly at the present time having regard to all the international implications of national defence. I think personally that it would have been desirable to have had this debate in a secret session of the House. I feel that there are many points upon which many members of this House would like to criticise our system of national defence, but it is not possible or perhaps desirable to do so in a public session. I feel disinclined to add anything to the criticism of the Minister with regard to the employment of civilians at Haulbowline, but I would like to ask the Minister is it not possible to recruit labour within the Army for such work? Is it not possible to find within the Defence Forces 100 men capable of carrying out ordinary construction work? If it is not possible to do so, I feel that there must be something seriously wrong in Army administration because in times of national emergency it would always be necessary for the Army to carry out construction work. Therefore, in a time such as this, when we are not actually involved in a serious emergency, there should be no difficulty whatever in finding within the ordinary Defence Forces a sufficient number of men to carry out this work. The Minister has stated that the arrangements which he made for the recruiting of these men were necessary because the ordinary channels of employment, that is, the employment of men through the labour exchange, could not be used, because it was necessary that men employed in conjunction with the Army should be men who could be relied upon. Yet he has admitted that the Deputy who engaged these men did not even know their names. Therefore, the precaution which he claims that he took was very inadequate. I would suggest to the Minister that in all such cases it should be his policy to recruit men for such work from within the Defence Force.

I would like to add to what other Deputies have said in regard to the urgent need for strict economy in all branches of Army administration. Everybody knows how easy it is to waste and squander money and material within a huge army. In a time such as this I think the Minister should set up within each branch of the Army a special department to ensure the strictest possible economy. I am not satisfied that everything that it is possible to do is being done to ensure the satisfactory defences of this country from what I can observe as an ordinary individual, but I feel that matters of this kind should not be discussed in public.

I wish to say a few words on this Estimate. I want to assure the Minister and the House that I did not want to make any political capital out of the position in Haulbowline but I wanted to correct what I believe was a grievous wrong, a wrong committed by a State Department. This matter was brought to my notice by letters I received from men in Cobh complaining about the way labour was recruited for a State Department job. I got a number of letters and I thought it was about time to investigate the matter. I went to Cobh on two occasions in order to ascertain if there was any truth in the allegations that the work in Haulbowline was being dispensed by a certain political organisation.If the Minister thinks there is any great distinction between the old I.R.A. and Fianna Fáil so far as Cork is concerned, then he is very innocent. I do not know who the secretary of the Fianna Fáil organisation is, but I know that the chairman of the old I.R.A. is also chairman of the Fianna Fáil organisation, so that the two terms are synonymous so far as Cork is concerned.

However, that is not the point. When I approached the people in the labour exchange I discovered that there had not been an application to the labour exchange for men and that they had no knowledge there of how the men were recruited. The Minister has told us how the men were recruited —that Deputy O'Sullivan got instructions to recruit them. But the Minister has not explained why Deputy O'Sullivan was asked to recruit them, considering the fact that he is not a Deputy for the constituency and also considering the fact that he had nothing to do with the Security Force in that area. Deputy O'Sullivan definitely handed over his function to a local man who has been very active in the Fianna Fáil organisation. He happens to be an old I.R.A. man, I understand. I do not know the man at all, but at any rate he was the person who was recruiting the labour in Haulbowline.

The Minister has stated that he was informed on Friday that men were wanted on Monday. I suggest that he was not taken quite so suddenly as that. This work in Haulbowline is work that is usually done by the Board of Works and in the ordinary way it would be done by the Board of Works people; but the Department of Defence wanted the thing done expeditiously and they decided to take the matter into their own hands. Surely the Minister is not going to tell us that the recruitment of labour was one of the things discussed when they decided to take over this work themselves? He gave as a reason why he asked Deputy O'Sullivan to recruit the men in Haulbowline that they had to be at work on Monday.

He also said that he has considerable difficulty with men working at military posts. Haulbowline, in the strict sense of the word, is not a military post. It is an island on which is situated one very important industry, concerned with iron and steel, and there are people of various nationalities employed there. There is also an oil refinery there, and there are families living on the island. In the ordinary sense of the word, it is not a military post, but, granted that it is so regarded, surely if the Minister was forced to rush men over on the Monday one would think the proper way would be to get the men through the ordinary State machinery. There is a labour exchange at Cobh in which 266 men were registered as unemployed. There are Guards in Cobh who most likely know every one of the 266 men on the list and, if there was a doubt about any of these men, was it not quite an easy matter to refer the names to the Guards and ask them whether there were people on the list who would be likely to commit acts detrimental to the State if they got employment in Haulbowline? But he took this way of doing it, and it is a way that savours definitely of political favouritism—and I say that very advisedly.

The Minister indicated certain qualifications which the men working in Haulbowline should possess. For one thing, they should be registered at the local labour exchange. I suggest that there were men employed, and they are still employed, at Haulbowline who were never registered at the local labour exchange. He also said they should belong to the Local Security Force. I have letters here from men who belong to the Local Security Force and who were registered at the labour exchange, but that was not sufficient qualification, apparently, because they were not able to get this note or chit from the local Fianna Fáil man who had the giving of those notes. I think the Minister was written to by the members of the Local Security Force in Cóbh with regard to the scandal that went on there in connection with the employment of men. I think I am right in saying that the Local Security Force protested to the Minister as well as to the Guards.

Does it not all show that, despite the innocence of the Minister, there was a definite political bias exercised in the recruitment of those men? The figures the Minister gave me yesterday with regard to the number of men registered as unemployed in the local labour exchange in mid-October and mid-November show a difference of only 12. There were 266 unemployed in mid-October and there were 12 less in mid-November, although he tells us there were up to 70 men employed at Haulbowline.He also told us the work was practically completed. Again he displays very childish innocence if he believes that. This work will not be completed before next Easter, and in the meantime there is work going on there under good conditions and good wages.

There is in this Estimate an amount of £225,220 to be spent on maintenance and minor works. I want to get from the Minister or the Taoiseach a guarantee that the same system of recruiting labour will not be employed in the spending of the £225,220. As well as that, I think there should be a public inquiry into this affair in Haulbowline so that the people will know exactly the method in which a State Department engages in order, as I said, definitely to carry out political propaganda for their own Party. I want a guarantee that such methods will not be employed again. The facts were so amazing that I could hardly believe them when I first heard of the conditions there, but the Minister has confirmed my worst suspicions and there is no word of regret and no hint of amendment as regards the future conduct of the Minister. If that disposition is to be continued, I am afraid the public in Cobh and in the south will be rather alarmed. Apparently it does not matter about being registered at the labour exchange or being in a trades union; if you are not a member of the Fianna Fáil Party you will not get employment, and God knows employment is scarce enough at the present time.

As to the other items in the Army Estimate, I have no objection to offer, and the Party I associate with has no objection to offer. If these things are necessary for the defence of the country, and if it is essential to see that the men in the Army are properly clothed, fed and housed, then we have no objection to the spending of this money. It is a remarkable fact that money can be found for purposes like those but, as Deputy Hickey pointed out, money cannot be found for other probably more necessary purposes. It certainly is as necessary to defend people from hunger, starvation and poverty as to defend their lives from an invader or an enemy.

There is just one comparatively small point on which I should like the Minister to give us some information. If he is not in a position to give it now, I shall not press the matter. The point has reference to the Construction Corps. I should like to know from the Minister what is the policy behind that corps or is what has happened up to date merely an experiment? Is it the intention of the Government to extend that corps throughout the country or to keep it confined to Dublin? Further, I should like if the Minister would tell us whether the Government are satisfied with the experiment up to date, whether they are satisfied that the men are acquitting themselves in a satisfactory manner? Arising out of that, there is another point on which I should like to get some information. There may be very good reason for the present position but it is not apparent either to me or to a great number of the unemployed who may eventually be brought into this corps. The rate of pay is fixed at 1/- per day. It does seem, as I say, on the face of it rather strange—I grant there may be good reason for it—that men who are recruited for all practical purposes in the same way as ordinary soldiers, and who are taken into the Construction Corps to do constructive work, work which is largely of a navvy character, are given only 1/- per day while the ordinary soldier from the day he joins as a raw recruit gets 2/- per day——

What about the £10 which they are paid at the end of the year?

Mr. Morrissey

What is that?

There is a bonus of £10 at the end of a year. They have the option to leave the corps or to join the Regular Army at the end of 12 months. If they leave or join the Army they are given a bonus of £10.

Mr. Morrissey

I am sure the Minister will appreciate that I am merely looking for information and, so far, we have not got very much information.This is a very important experiment and it is one that we should like to see succeeding. For that reason, we should like to see it started under the best possible auspices. We should, therefore, be glad to get more information from the Minister. If he cannot give it to-day I hope he will supply it at a later date.

I had hoped that some other member of the Government would intervene in this debate. Would the Taoiseach like to speak now?

It does not matter. I can speak later. I intended to speak later but if the Deputy would prefer to wait until I have spoken well and good.

Perhaps it would be fairer to the Taoiseach that he should hear my views before he speaks himself.My views are very emphatically these. If an episode like the Haulbowline employment episode, on a big scale, can occur, and, having occurred, is accidentally found out by a member of the Opposition; if when that member of an Opposition Party comes here and complains, the only answer he gets from the Minister is to the effect that: "I did it; I did it because I am determined to employ nobody but a person who has a national record and the manner in which I shall find out reliable men with a national record is through the instrumentality of one of my own back benchers"; and if having made that statement, and having taken 24 hours to reconsider it, he comes back here on the following day to repeat that, then all I can say to the Government is that there can be neither unity, harmony, trust nor confidence in an administration that is run on such lines. The best way to examine the position of everybody concerned is to put oneself in another's place. Deputy Dillon endeavoured to put himself in the position of a Minister faced with urgent work, requiring a great number of men, requiring the services of men whose loyalty would be unquestioned. Faced with that situation as an urgent matter, he said he could understand the Minister going to a 'phone and speaking to one of his own back-benchers in this way: "Look here, will you get the men"? But having done that, and seeing the shock it had given to every Deputy in Parliament, the least one would expect from that Minister would be to come before Parliament and say: "Look here, I did that with the best intentions in the world but now that I am faced with it, I am prepared to admit that it was not the best way of doing it". We did not get anything of the kind from the Minister.

We did not get any explanation. We did not get any apology. We got a brazen-faced attempt to put a non-Party complexion on it. The explanation was: "I passed it along to a Deputy who went to the secretary of the old I.R.A. in Cork, a non-Party body." A non-Party body, moryah! The Minister is not as simple as he would like us to believe. The Minister knows better than I do that the Old I.R.A. in Cork is 99.9 per cent. Fianna Fáil. What happened? The Minister was not born yesterday. He was a prominent figure in the old Volunteer movement. He was a prominent figure in the split and the civil war that followed.The Volunteers split up. Half of them went into the National Army. Half of them opposed the National Army. A very tiny minority remained neutral. The Old I.R.A. was formed mainly out of one section. The Army Comrades' Association was formed out of those who had gone into the national Army. The Army Comrades' Association was banned by the Government. The other body carried on. Are we to take it that that is a non-Party body, particularly when the instrument, the conduit pipe that is to get men from that organisation to do work paid for out of public funds is a Deputy of the Fianna Fáil Party? If we were to believe that the head of the Government and the whole of the Government approved of that precedent as a proper and clean non-Party way of giving employment out of public funds, then all I can say is that the Council of Tammany Hall in its worst days would be like a Sodality meeting compared to a meeting of the Government in this country.

Let us face up to what we are to expect.A Government Minister comes to Parliament and in an emergency asks for money for defence purposes. He wants all the taxpayers together to put up that money. Without opposition, without criticism, all Parties support that Government in getting the money. Having got the money, they bring up one of their own back benchers and say: "There is a job going for 200 men in such-and-such a place; you draw up a list and whatever men are on your list will be employed." We are told that that Deputy went to an organisation—the Old I.R.A.—and the secretary of the Old I.R.A. organisation put forward so many of the men. We were told that so many of these men came from that Deputy's constituency, not the constituency in which the men were required, but from the individual Deputy's constituency, and that the addresses given were local addresses. The Minister apparently sees nothing irregular, he sees nothing to be challenged, he sees nothing in that procedure that would justify the terms of grave corruption. He apparently sees nothing in that procedure to be inquired into with the very fullness of the authority of Parliament behind it. He merely states the facts. He said:

"I did that because I am determined that only men with national records will be employed on such works."

What does the Minister mean by a national record? Does he mean a man who soldiered in the Volunteers before there was any division, or does he mean a man who soldiered in the Volunteers before the division of 20 years ago and who took either one or the other side after the division?

I made that clear.

The Minister then makes it clear that no man in or about 30 years of age is to get employment.

I did not make that clear. Surely the men in the L.S.F. are under 30 years of age?

Will you accept the L.S.F. irrespective of any other service?

Yes, certainly.

The Minister has mended his hand since last night.

I have not. Do not misrepresent me. You are going a long way towards doing it, but do not do it entirely. I made it clear that the people I wanted to see put on this type of work should be recruited from either the Old I.R.A. or the Local Security Force. There was no question of age, good, bad or indifferent in that, except that I presume the majority of the Local Security Force are young men—the "A" Section anyhow.

The Minister is entitled to his presumption. I am entitled to my opinion. I am entitled even to interpret, when I am speaking, statements made by the Minister. The Minister's agent went to the secretary of the Old I.R.A. and asked him to put up the men. To be a member of the Old I.R.A. a man had to be an active soldier 20 years ago and the boy who was ten years of age, say, 20 years ago would be 30 years now and in that category would be ruled out. There may be men under 30 in the Local Security Force. If the Minister wanted people from the Local Security Force, had he not enough machinery in the parish of Cobh, in the constituency of East Cork, to get the men he wanted, without going to another constituency and to a Deputy of his own Party?

No matter what the Minister's intentions were, I will say this and give him credit for it—his intentions were nothing like as bad as the appearance of his actions. I believe that. I believe that the one appalling mistake the Minister has made and the mistake that is an offence to Parliament, to everybody sitting opposite him and, possibly, to a great many sitting beside him, is his unwise attempt to brazen the whole thing out. If the thing is to be brazened out by a Minister, then we have to accept it as normal procedure.If the Minister's line to-day and last night is to be accepted, then it is a normal line, it is a justifiable line, it is a defendable line that can be applied to all work and any Government Department. I put it to the Government as reasonable men: could you expect a Parliament made up of political Parties to vote money continuously, freely, without criticism, without opposition on the condition that, when that money has been voted in that spirit, then the Minister, the political head of one Department, will merely turn to one of his back-benchers and say: "So much money has been voted; you take on the job of finding the workmen; anybody you O.K. is O.K. with me"?

The present state of Parliament, of opposing Parties pulling together in an emergency behind certain objects, could not continue for one minute if the line adopted by the Minister meets with the approval of the Government. The amount of cohesion and pulling together that the country enjoys at the moment would not last over the weekend if the line of policy laid down by the Minister has the approval of Parliament. I, myself, as one individual would do my utmost to burst any unity that is there at the moment if that unity is to be the cloak for political patronage and for employment out of public funds of only one side, or through the machinery of only one side. I believe, as I said before, that the only mistake the Minister has made was in thinking that it was his duty to defend whatever was done. We can understand the head of a Department standing over anything that was right or wrong provided the result of that stand was not that a precedent was being established and that Parliament was not being asked to swallow as normal a most abnormal, unsavoury procedure.

As I indicated when the Deputy was about to speak, I think it would be right that I should intervene for a few moments in this debate. I should like to say from the Government side some of the things which have been said from the side of the Opposition in regard to the services which are being rendered to the State and the nation at the present time both by Army officers, who have had a tremendous amount of extra work placed upon them, and also by the young people and the older people of the country who have with one accord come forward voluntarily to offer their services at great personal sacrifice. I think it is a matter of great congratulation for us all that that should be so, and I think that anybody who has seen the relative unanimity with which this very heavy Vote has been passed by the House will also realise that so far as every Party and every individual in the House are concerned, they are all of one mind, and that is that no matter what the sacrifices that may have to be borne, these sacrifices will be borne if it is quite clear that the safety of the country and the nation demands it.

The Minister, in his statement, indicated that we may have much heavier burdens even than that involved in this Vote to bear before this war is through. Compared with the sacrifices that other countries are making, this—and, let us hope, the other sacrifices we may have to make—will not be great by comparison, but they are going to be very heavy for our community, and the reason that this Estimate is not considerably heavier is because it has not been possible yet to get certain equipment which we want and which we are hoping to get. We have not given up hope in that regard because it is our duty to see that the man-power which we have got will be supported by all the mechanical equipment which modern science makes available for it. As you know, we are not a manufacturing nation and, therefore, it is not an easy thing for us, under the present circumstances, to get all the equipment we would like. Even under the circumstances obtaining immediately before the war it was not possible to get all the equipment we would like to get, because at the time we wanted the equipment all the other people were wanting it too, and the producing nations were, each one of them, producing for themselves, and it became impossible to get in time the equipment that we would require. There is another factor in that, too, and that is, of course, that if you get it too long in anticipation, the equipment is likely to be obsolescent or obsolete by the time it is required, and therefore, in cases of preparation of this sort, there is always a desire on the part of everybody to wait until the last possible moment in order that the money they spend on the equipment will be spent in the very best way.

Now, as I say, we can congratulate ourselves here in the Parliament. There is no one on these benches, I am sure, who does not realise, equally with those on the Opposition Benches, how difficult it is to carry on our work under these conditions and what an amount of restraint it puts upon everybody. We all chafe under that restraint from time to time. I will admit that the Opposition are more likely to chafe under it than the Government, normally, but I would like to assure the members of the Opposition that if they find, from time to time, that it is hard to keep silent, in order not, by anything they might say or do, to do harm, it is equally difficult, from time to time, for the members of the Government. There are things that they would dearly like to say, too, about which they have to put a certain gate of prudence before their lips.

Now, if I pass away from that I should like to refer to what is really only an incident—important, I admit, and I am not going to make light of it at all. I was surprised to hear it, and let us examine it from two points of view: first of all, with regard to the particular thing—I am talking now of the Haulbowline affair—first of all, with regard to the thing itself, is it suggested from any side of the House that in that particular case there has been corruption? That is number one. Has it been examined in order to see if, in fact—I am talking now about this thing in itself as a single, isolated, individual matter—to see if, in fact, those who are employed are all of one Party? That suggestion has been thrown out in some of the speeches, but I wonder is it true? I feel perfectly certain that it is not true, and I should like to know whether there is an allegation to the effect that there was corruption or, in fact, with regard to that affair, those who were employed are all belonging to our Party?

Yes, that is correct.

It is correct that they are all——

That is correct.

——belonging to our Party?

That is correct, yes.

Well, the Deputy may believe that it is correct, but he will know that I am not for a moment suggesting that he is telling a falsehood if I say that I doubt it. As you know, it is not easy, with regard to 100 people, to examine and find out in any definite way what their political opinions are. But I should be willing to lay a wager that the Deputy is wrong.

I did investigate it.

It would be very difficult to investigate it, as the Deputy knows.

I investigated it, and my information is that that is correct.

Very well. Does the Deputy suggest that it was done deliberately, that it was done by the Minister, and was a case of political corruption?

Oh, I do not suggest that.

Let us be clear. I only want to be clear about these things. Now, there is the question of the case itself, and the Minister has explained clearly the circumstances under which he took the action which he said he took: namely, that there was urgency and that he went the most direct way about the matter. We hear a lot about cutting red tape and all sorts of things when the Government is asked to do things, and the Minister went a very direct way about it, but I am quite ready to admit the case that has been made by Deputy O'Higgins and some of the other speakers, and that is that it is open, obviously, to abuse. I think all of us are long enough in political life to know that it could be abused and that if a political Party did in fact use that particular method of recruitment and used it—to use the term "patronage"—as political patronage to certain people, it would be a matter of grave public anxiety. It is a good suggestion of the Deputy that each Party in the House should try to see things as the others see it, and there is no doubt that if you look at it from the point of view of suspicion and from the point of view of saying: "Very well, political Parties are all the same; they will try to do their utmost to get as many followers as they can and to do as many good things as they can for their followers," then, of course, there is no doubt that it is open to abuse.

Now, what has been the practice? You ask the Government, what has been the Government policy generally with regard to this matter of employment?I think that we ourselves strongly objected to that practice as we thought it had been operated by our predecessors—very strongly objected—and that, as a matter of fact, when we came into office, one of the things we did was to issue instructions that, so far as public employment was concerned, the names would be taken from the labour exchange and that preference would be given in accordance with the need.

And it is the proper way, too.

That was, and it remains Government policy as far as policy is concerned. But what happens with regard to private employers? When private employers want to use the labour exchange they get names and pick out those most suitable for their work. When names come along for Government employment, naturally the same thing happens, because it is not always the most needy person will be really suitable for the job. For instance, it might be found that the most needy person for the work of a smith was a carpenter and, therefore, you have to give it to the most needy smith. If there is any question as to what is the general policy of the Government with regard to employment, that is the policy, and that is the method which will be continued to be employed, namely, going to the exchanges to get the names of men and in accordance with their needs, if suitable, employing them. The Minister in this case had a particular job. He found that it was very important, as those employed in military works got a certain amount of inside information, that they should be people on whom he could absolutely depend, because he had examples, apparently, brought to his notice where people who were employed on work of that kind were not dependable. He wanted to get these people quickly. The Deputy was a person from whom the Minister could get reliable information, on which he could depend on getting people who would be trustworthy.

What about the superintendent of the Gárda Síochána? Was not that the obvious source?

That may be. I am telling you what the Minister said he did. He got these people selected on the basis of trustworthiness and on the basis of getting them speedily. Whatever may be the necessity for it, and without viewing the immediate case, and the absolute necessity for resorting to something of the sort, I say very definitely, that we could not expect the Opposition to agree with us in that procedure. I do not think there need be any more about it. I understand there is no suggestion of corruption or unfair influence or of a desire on the part of the Administration to give employment to one particular section, except in so far as to try to give it to people who can be depended upon to do work for which they were required quickly and to do it well. I hope there is no misunderstanding with regard to what the Government policy is. If you want to do work and to get it done quickly one of the ways is to get someone you know on the spot who can be depended upon, if you are not able to do it yourself. I admit that there are all the dangers suggested if that was operated for a considerable time. There is no doubt about that. I fear if I were a member of the Opposition and if it were suggested that that method was going to be employed, I would have to object to it too.

With regard to the other matters dealt with in the Estimate it represents a very heavy sum. It does not by any means, I am afraid, indicate at all the ultimate burdens which we will have to bear, but it is something to know that the peoples' representatives recognise what these burdens ultimately will mean, and they are prepared in the name of the people to meet these burdens. There is another matter I might deal with now. I have often dealt with it myself when in Opposition.It is one of the sad things about the modern social order, as we have it, that you can get for military defence purposes people to bear burdens which they are not prepared to bear in order to deal with some of our social evils.

Why not ask them to do it?

They are not on the same lines, and even though I did think, before I had to try to solve the problem, that it was a fair comparison, in fact it is not a fair comparison. The people will have ultimately to bear the burden. Do not imagine that everything is finished when this Vote is passed. The burden of all this will have to be borne ultimately by the people. Someone must pay for it and they will pay in some way or another. There is a definite thing to be done with the money, something that you know will achieve its object. The moment you try to use a similar method to end social evils you find that you introduce other evils.

Because of vested interests.

There are no vested interests on these benches. There is not a single person on these benches who is not just as anxious as the Deputy——

There are, outside.

——to solve this problem.

I have never disputed that.

Very well. Will you not at least give the people on these benches, who have all the material necessary from an examination of the position this credit, that if there was an easy solution, as was suggested from the benches opposite, we would jump at it?

I am satisfied that vested interests and the wealthy peoples' interests are at stake and that is why we have quietness about the burden.

That is not true. You may have vested interests, but statements of that sort do infinitely more harm than good.

Did we not offer 4 per cent. and could not get the money?

I am not speaking of any vested interests, but I am speaking as a person who for many years tried to give consideration to these problems in an attempt to get a solution.

Mr. Hickey rose.

These interruptions must stop.

Talk of that sort is only doing harm by suggesting to people that there is an easy remedy, when there is no such thing.

There is harm if you are not facing it.

It does naturally strike anyone who is anxious about the social evils that are here and in every other country unfortunately, that money would be much more difficult to get from Parliament for social purposes, but one of the reasons it would be difficult to get is that it would be argued immediately that the money was not going to secure its objective. If the money was going to secure its objective Parliament would give it just as well as for this purpose.

Even for housing.

Of course there are people who think all the time that phrases will solve difficulties. They will not.

I am not one of those.

The Deputy, in my opinion, is pre-eminently one of them.

You may think so but that is not my view.

In this case we have got the people prepared to bear these burdens, but they are going to be effective. In so far as money will be able to be used for that purpose definitely it will secure it. If people were to ask me: "Are you going to save this nation with that money? Are you going completely to remove the menaces with that money? Are you going to bring this country peacefully through the crisis with this money?" I would have to answer "I do not know". All I can say is that definitely we are trying to do it, and the purpose of getting this money is to put ourselves in the best possible position to defend ourselves.

It is because the other members of the House and the people of the country as a whole approach it in that light that we have got the readiness and the willingness to bear these burdens, heavy though they are going to be. When we come round next April to the task of providing the money which will be necessary in order to meet this expenditure—it will have to come out of the pockets of the individuals in the country and out of their savings—we will realise how heavy these burdens are. We are not going to get rid of these burdens by borrowing; there is no simple and easy way to get rid of them. In voting this money, the House is prepared definitely, on behalf of the people, to support the measures that will have to be taken next April in order to make that sum available, and I am very glad, as the head of the Government, to see that there has been no hesitation in voting the money.

The Taoiseach has made a brave effort this evening to put a face on the Haulbowline affair but, of course, it is obvious to anybody, after listening to the speech of the Minister for Defence last night, that the Taoiseach was set an impossible job to-day. The Taoiseach has said that there has been co-operation by all Parties in this House and outside this House in the one objective of trying to ward off the menace to this country's independence and to safeguard it from any danger which may threaten it, and that, in an endeavour to achieve that task, there has been very generous co-operation by all Parties. Let us say frankly that measures have been passed through this House in the past 12 months which, in other circumstances, would have been subjected to very critical examination and which would have produced here the bitterest possible opposition on the part of the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and, probably, the Independent Group.

However, realising the menace which was facing this country and desiring to present a united front to all possible invaders, every Party in the House for the time being put aside its keenest political differences and co-operated very generously with the Government in an endeavour to ensure that a spirit of co-operation and cordiality would be the characteristics of our defence policy during the crisis. For that, nobody wants thanks. Those who co-operated certainly do not want thanks, but they want their point of view to be understood and appreciated, and it is not decent, much less thankful, for the Government, offered co-operation of that kind in very generous measure, to come along and try to put over on the House and on the other Parties in the House the disreputable intrigue that was resorted to at Haulbowline.

I do not wish to discuss this matter in its details; I am concerned only with the decencies of Parliament and the decencies of public life, which transcend all other considerations. Whether 100 or 200 people get work or do not get work is a small thing relatively, compared to the inspiring of confidence in Parliament and to imbuing in the people a recognition of the fact that Parliament will never descend, and a Government Party will never descend, to procedure such as has been adopted at Haulbowline. Even an attempt to justify the details of the case does not stand one minute's examination. It was said that it was the desire of the Minister and of the Department of Defence to get certain people to do this important work. Let us see for a moment what the work was. It was merely the erecting of accommodation. There was no military equipment on the site where the work was being done. It might be alleged that there were certain boats in the vicinity, but surely to heavens our defence policy is such that we can protect such craft as we have from the possible attacks of a carpenter with a hammer or a saw, or of a labourer with a shovel. There was no military equipment whatever on this site and no danger of any military equipment being stolen from it. Let that be clear.

Even assuming that there were articles of value, from a military point of view, surely it was possible, as Deputy Morrissey has pointed out, to arrange that such persons as were to be employed on the job would be of a kind in whom trust could be placed. What in the name of heavens have we a Gárda Síochána force for? Did they see or hear anything? Did they know anybody? At one time we were told that they were the eyes and ears of the State and the guardians of its security. What was the difficulty, if it was desired to get key men with national records, in still retaining the labour exchange method of recruitment, but requiring the applicants to present, with their unemployment cards, a certificate from the Guards that the men recruited were perfectly safe from a national point of view and not calculated to damage or pilfer military property? Surely that was an easy way, and it does not require a very fertile imagination to resort to a device of that kind in the first instance.

The work at Haulbowline is the same as that being done at much more important military centres in the country. If the Department of Defence have any special work to do at the Curragh Camp, they can recruit the staff through the local labour exchange, though the Curragh Camp, as everybody knows, is a well-equipped military arsenal. But when it comes to putting up accommodation only on a site where there is no military equipment at Haulbowline, we find an entirely different procedure. I do not think it can be justified and nothing that the Taoiseach has said—brave and all though his effort was—has convinced me that he does not in his heart know that the procedure was one he could not defend for a moment. I shudder to think what we would have heard from the Taoiseach if he were on these benches. The normal method of recruitment is through the labour exchange. That is a perfectly fair method, and nothing has been said in the course of this debate to show that the circumstances at Haulbowline justified any departure from the well-tried and universally accepted method of recruiting people for public works.

When you throw that procedure overboard and put into the hands of a Deputy of the Government Party the right to offer employment or to refuse employment to persons on public works at Haulbowline, you are guilty, in my opinion, of a highly improper procedure, and when it is sought to give that procedure the imprimatur of a Government Department it seems to me that the Government have drifted very sadly from a correct appreciation of the part which it ought to play in a matter of this kind. It would be bad enough if the Minister were the person who was placing these people in employment. At least there would be some merit in the Minister being responsible, inasmuch as we could make him responsible to this House for his actions, but when an individual Deputy, with no responsibility to the House, is selected for the recruiting of staff for public works of this kind, it surely is a very grave departure from the rectitude which one is entitled to expect in Governmental matters and in public works schemes of this kind.

I have not one word of complaint to say against the Deputy in question. In my opinion, he was unwise to take on such a disreputable task. The question at issue is not how he used his power. The question at issue is that the Minister betrayed his real trust and functions in giving over to that Deputy the right to say who was and who was not going to get employment on public works. Now, if the Fianna Fáil Party want to place in employment in Cobh or anywhere else their unemployed supporters, they are quite welcome to do it, but they should not put them into employment on money raised out of the pockets of people who do not agree with the Fianna Fáil Party. If the Government Party want to start works for the purpose of providing for their unemployed people, these moneys should come out of the Party funds, and not out of the Department of Defence Estimate. This Estimate is not a Fianna Fáil Party Estimate. It is a national Estimate, and the money that is being raised under this Estimate is coming out of the pockets of Fianna Fáil people, if you like, but also out of the pockets of people who support the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party, and every other Party throughout the country. To attempt, therefore, to depart from the normal procedure of recruiting staff for a public works scheme of this kind, and to hand over the employment of staff on work of that kind to a Deputy of the Government Party is an entirely discreditable procedure. The Taoiseach said: "Is it alleged that there was corruption?" That is not the point at issue. We should, in ordering matters of this kind, make sure that it could never be said that it was open to corruption, and this thing is definitely open to corruption, and open to the exercise of all kinds of political nepotism, and well the Taoiseach knows it.

I do not want to go into the details of the case. I think the Taoiseach would have been well advised this evening, and so would his colleague the Minister for Defence have been well advised to recognise that in the hurry of trying to get staff for this work, if, in fact, there was any real hurry—in any case let that be the varnish—"that certain steps were taken which on more mature consideration we realise ought not to have been taken, that a mistake was made, and that as complaint has been made about the procedure adopted we do not intend to repeat the practice, and so far as we can do it we will adjust whatever wrong has been done." If the Taoiseach had done that this evening, I think public opinion would have much more confidence in the Government, and in parliamentary institutions, generally. The Taoiseach this evening got up merely to make a whitewashing speech: trying to whitewash the Minister for Defence who took the decision in this case, whereas the whole circumstances clearly demanded a recognition on the part of the Government that a mistake had been made, and a frank declaration that such a procedure would not be resorted to again.

I put it even now to the Government that the decencies of public administration demand that there should be an acknowledgement of the fact that a mistake was made. We ought to have, before this debate concludes, a definite assurance on behalf of the Government that this procedure will not be repeated in any other instance, and that, so far as it is possible to do so now, an effort will be made to remedy the very legitimate grievances which Deputy Hurley has undoubtedly shown to exist because of the unusual and disreputable method adopted of employing staff at Haulbowline. I hope that even yet the Government will give us that assurance and get away from this very sordid incident, which, as Deputy O'Higgins has rightly said, has done more than anything else in recent months to disturb the magnificent unity which has been demonstrated in this House and outside the House during the past 12 months.

As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Department of Defence who deals with A.R.P. matters is unavoidably absent from the House at the moment, I want to reply briefly to a couple of questions that were raised about A.R.P. I think it was Deputy Hickey who asked about gas masks, the price we had to pay for them, and from whom they were procured. I can give the Deputy some of the information he has asked for. In 1937 and 1938, we made efforts to get gas masks made in the country. Preliminary negotiations were entered on with several companies with regard to them. In September 1938, we found that we had no gas masks in the country. A number were ordered in September 1938. They came along at the rate of 2/4 per mask. They had been ordered from the British Home Office. In October, 1939, after the outbreak of war, the Government decided that we should increase our stock by over 50 per cent. Inquiries were made from the British Home Office as to whether they could supply this additional 50 per cent. They said they could not complete the order then. Failing to get a supply from the British Home Office or elsewhere, further inquiries were made, and it was found that it was possible to get gas masks from a private manufacturing concern in England. It is the well-known manufacturing organisation of Gormans.The additional 50 per cent. gas masks were procured from Gormans. Their Dublin agent is Medical Gases Ltd. At that time a firm in the City of Dublin had some machinery in for the manufacture of one portion of a gas mask. That was purely a speculation on their part. In September or October, 1939, they had this machinery in hands. In the June or July of this year the Government decided that they would increase the stock of gas masks by doubling the amount they had in October, 1939. Let me say that prior to 1939, from the preliminary inquiries that we had made, we found that gas masks would have been dearer to produce here: that is to say, they would have cost more than the 2/4 at which we had been getting them, but they would not be so dear as the price we had to pay for one lot from Gormans. This lot was purchased at 3/6.

Did the Department get a price quotation from a firm in Ireland?

Negotiations never got to the point at which we could say definitely that we could get gas masks in Ireland at a certain price. We knew that they were going to be much dearer than the 2/4.

Would the Minister say whether the people in Ireland who were interested in the contract ever submitted a figure at which they would be prepared to supply gas masks to the Government?

There was no individual here making gas masks.

Mr. Morrissey

That is not the point. Did the Minister get a price submitted to his Department for a finished gas mask from an Irish firm?

As far as I am aware, no.

Mr. Morrissey

That is definite.

The Parliamentary Secretary informs me that we got it from a proposed firm: one that was not actually in production and that did not exist here.

Mr. Morrissey

Did not the negotiations with the Minister's Department go so far that the firm actually incurred a financial liability in the getting in of machinery here?

I do not think so. That is a different firm.

Mr. Morrissey

Perhaps so.

At any rate, the situation was that in October, 1939, additional gas masks had to be purchased. They could not be purchased from the British Home Office and could not be manufactured here. They had to be got, and they were purchased. Then an additional lot was purchased in August, 1940, at the original price of 2/4 each.

Did you not get a tender from an Irish firm some time about February of this year and were they not informed that the Department did not require any gas masks at the time, although the prices quoted were less than the prices quoted on the previous occasion?

I am telling the Deputy all I know at the moment. If he wants more information, he will have to put down a Parliamentary Question.

You have stated that you got no quotation from an Irish firm as to the price at which they would deliver gas masks.

I want to finish this matter. If the Parliamentary Secretary, who has now arrived, knows any more, he can give the details to the Deputy. In August, 1940, we got an additional supply, representing 100 per cent. of what we had before that date. At that time, inquiries were made as to whether they could be manufactured in the country and it was found that the machinery which had been laid in had been sold, and that even if it were there, there would be difficulty in getting materials, so that this lot was purchased from the British Home Office at the rate of 2/4 apiece.

The question was also raised as to whether we had a sufficient number of steel helmets to meet our own requirements and also to supply the fire-fighting units organised by industrial firms. There is a certain number of helmets in the A.R.P. service and we have been adding to that number pretty rapidly of late. In the A.R.P. service at the moment, there are not sufficient helmets to enable us to give them to ordinary industrial firms for their fire-fighting services, but measures have been taken to endeavour to secure a supply, and we think there is a chance of securing it.

There were negotiations in progress in relation to the making of respirators in Ireland. The Minister for Co-ordination of Defensive Measures was very insistent to me that we should try to have these respirators manufactured in Ireland, and certain proposals were made to me in relation to their manufacture here. A number of firms were concerned in the production of the various parts of the respirator. The Dunlop people in Cork were to make the face-piece, and I think that in Nenagh and somewhere here in Dublin it was proposed to make one portion of the respirator case. While these proposals were made to us, apart from the machinery available here in Ireland already to stamp out the tin portion of the respirator, there was not really any machinery for the production of the complete respirator. The price did compare reasonably well with the price at which we were purchasing in England, but there were difficulties of inspection.In purchasing the respirators in England, we had a guarantee from the British Home Office that each respirator was thoroughly tested. We could not get that guarantee from the firm which proposed to go into production here.

Mr. Morrissey

Did you get that guarantee in respect of the respirators which you got from the private firm in England?

We had a Home Office guarantee with any respirator made by any firm in England. With the delay in getting men trained, the possibility of my getting into trouble for having certain men sent across to England for training——

There was no fear of that.

—— and the fact that it would be rather a costly and difficult process to secure that we had satisfactory gas masks, when I examined it thoroughly, it did not look to me to be a reasonably economic proposition, and I turned it down because on the basis of the economy we would effect by purchasing in England as against the employment given here and the cost of it, we would not be justified in buying the stuff here, I thought. Again, there was a much more vital factor: I was not satisfied that we could, in the time at our disposal, secure a properly-tested and reliable respirator. That was the main factor in the matter. The Minister made some references to helmets. I do not know to what his references related, but we really have, from the point of view of pure theory and organisation, a better air-raid precaution service in Dublin than there is in any city of its size in England. Originally, we intended to have 2,700 wardens and helmets were provided for all these. As a result of various discussions and examination of the situation as the organisation progressed, we decided to have 4,500 wardens and helmets have been provided for these wardens, now. Helmets have been provided also for the fire-fighting services, and we have somewhere about 7,000 helmets extra which are being used for men who are concerned with emergency communications, etc., so that as far as the general equipment of wardens is concerned, we are reasonably well equipped. I think we have a very good organisation.

As I have the opportunity, I should like to say again, as I said before in the House, that I am amazed at the good citizenship of the numberless people who are connected with the A.R.P. organisation in this city. I have been connected with volunteer organisations and have seen unselfish national service given in this country, and the work being done and the sacrifices being made by the air-raid wardens in Dublin are comparable with any work ever carried out in this country. That refers to Dublin. I should like the Deputy for Cork City to move a little in pushing forward the organisation in Cork City.

Previous to February, 1940, you had got quotations from firms in Ireland as to the price at which they would deliver gas-masks. Evidently, on that occasion you wrote that you were not placing any orders at that time. When did we get the last consignment of gas masks? Was it later than September of this year?

We are getting some of them now.

In September of this year, it was stated in the Seanad—I do not know whether by the Minister or not—that they were going to get in 500,000 gas masks. Why were not local firms given an opportunity of making these gas masks? It is not a question of inspection. A lot of comment is being made by Irish firms who had machinery installed and workers trained to do this work. From September, 1939, until September, 1940, they were waiting for orders for these gas masks and then they found they were obtained from England. It is now stated that it was more costly to get them from England than to have them made in Ireland.

We ordered an extra 500,000 gas masks last September. We had hoped to do with the original 500,000, but the Government could not face up to the responsibility of distributing respirators only in Dublin and Dun Laoghaire. It was, therefore, decided to buy an extra 500,000 respirators. The people who originally proposed to make respirators in this country wanted a definite order for 1,000,000 respirators before they set up the machinery. In the interests of the public and in order to get thoroughly-tested respirators, I bought where I could depend upon them. I also acted in the interests of economy, because I got the stuff more cheaply there than I could get it here, even considering the amount of labour that might be employed here. I considered that it was more economic to buy what I did buy than to have them made here.

As to the Deputy's statement that machinery had been installed and workers trained, machinery had not been installed. Portion of a gas mask is of very simple construction and could be made in Nenagh, but that is only portion. It would not have been very difficult to make the stuff if the machinery had been installed, but it had not been installed. The training of the operatives would not have been a tremendous job, either, but I could not incur risks regarding the training of the inspectors or the assurance that we were getting an actual fool-proof respirator. I could not risk getting a faulty article and, therefore, I bought in the best and, in my opinion, the cheapest market.

As regards the contracts for clothing, as the Minister knows, I have been informed elsewhere that the Army is being fully and efficiently clothed, and that there are no arrears in regard to the supplies of clothing for the recruits taken on since the emergency.I presume the same applies to the regular Army. I should like to know if all the contracts for supply of clothing to the Defence Forces and Local Security Corps, so far as that Corps has been supplied with uniform up to the present, have been given to Irish firms, and whether it is true that there has been no complaint as to the carrying out of these contracts. I want to know whether the firms who have secured the contracts are themselves carrying out the work, or whether any portion of the contracts is being sublet to other firms. I want to know whether the firms concerned in the carrying out of the contracts for supply of clothing are under the close and constant supervision, so far as their premises are concerned, of the factory inspectors under the Department of Industry and Commerce, and whether the firms concerned are subject to the fair wages clause in regard to Government contracts. I want an assurance on these points because complaints have been made to me that some of the work is being carried out—especially in this city—in premises that would, probably, be open to criticism, from the point of view of the inspectors of factories and workshops.I have not made any inspection of these places, but I should like to have an assurance on these points from the Minister.

Following my statement at the opening of the debate to-day, Deputy Dillon dealt mainly in his speech with the method of employing workers at Haulbowline. Deputy Dillon said that, if he were in my position, it is quite probable he would have acted exactly as I did. In making that statement, he was very reasonable. I am pretty certain that many other Deputies, if put in my position on that occasion, would have acted as I did.

Mr. Morrissey

Deputy Dillon did not say that.

I am not going to argue whether he did or not. I listened to what he said, and he made it very clear that he could easily imagine himself acting as I did if in my position at the time.

Mr. Morrissey

He said he could easily have been guilty of an error of judgment. That is not quite the same thing.

There is not much use in splitting hairs. The fact is that I had to secure a number of men in a certain short period. Deputy Hurley may make any counter statements he wishes but I am stating facts. When I say that I was given a certain time to secure these workers, I am stating what I know to be a fact. Deputy Hurley may tell me that that statement is not correct, that he knows that there was plenty of time to secure these workers. I am dealing only with the statements made to me on the occasion.I am not going to defend my action in securing these men through the medium of a Deputy of this House. I do not think that the Government would stand for that policy for a second, but I was dealing with a particular situation on the occasion. It may be true that I could have gone to the Garda barracks or to some other source for the men. I had to ask myself where I could secure these men and the source I thought of was that to which I went—Deputy O'Sullivan, who is resident in Cork City. I got in touch with Deputy O'Sullivan through the medium of the Gárda barracks.

Even though I got in touch with him through the medium of the Gárda barracks I must confess that it had not occurred to me that that was the source to which I might have gone to secure those individuals. I am frankly confessing that, and in view of the very strong statements that have been made here in the House with a great degree of warmth, I want to say that, knowing the necessity there is for getting individuals upon whom the military can rely, it will be my practice in future to go to the Gárda barracks to secure those workers, however undesirable the Guards themselves may think that to be. Those suggestions have come from representatives here in the House and I am going to adopt them. If I appear to have defended the action that I took, I want to make it clear now that what I was defending myself against was the charge of being a racketeer which was made by Deputy Hurley, and which I resented and resented strongly. I did not in any single way regard this matter from any other point of view than that which I expressed to my secretary when I asked him to convey to Deputy O'Sullivan the means by which I wanted those men recruited and the type of individual that I wanted recruited.

In respect of the Army proper, I want to say that the general report which I have received in regard to the morale of the very large number of men which goes to make up the Army of to-day has been first class. I am told that the incidence of crime is very much less now in proportion to what it was formerly, that is, before it was necessary to recruit this very large Army that we have to-day. I should also like to say that the men, from the officers right down to the latest private, have entered into the spirit of making themselves into highly-efficient and highly-capable soldiers, and that they have not spared themselves in any way in regard to the manceuvres in which they have had to participate throughout the summer and late into the autumn. Many of them have had to undergo what might reasonably be described as active service conditions. They have been out for very long periods, six weeks at a time, living in bivouac, sleeping there during the hours of night, rising in the early hours of the morning and pushing ahead to some other point, under conditions that may be described as those which would be likely to arise in circumstances of warlike activity in this country. Every man in the Army is equipped with some weapon. It is true that we have not all the weapons we would desire to have, but I can assure the House that every individual soldier in the Army is possessed of some piece of equipment with which he can take part in the defence of the freedom and integrity of this country. The officers who have recently come in, the temporary officers, are being put through courses of instruction which will make them efficient and capable of handling their men. The N.C.O.s are being similarly dealt with. The rankers are being made into efficient and well-disciplined soldiers, and if those men never have to go into service—as we all hope they will never have to go into service against any enemy—they will have gained tremendously in having become disciplined soldiers who will probably make very much more efficient citizens than if this emergency had never arisen and they had never received this type of training.

There were several questions asked by various Deputies in the course of the debate. Deputy McMenamin asked for some information in respect of sub-head I. He referred to the figure of £6,880 under this sub-head, which is for the conveyance of stores by train. These are stores which ordinarily would not be sent by motor transport. He also referred to the figure—no doubt other people will also have noticed it too—of £550 under sub-head A.3, expenses of equitation teams at horse shows. That sum represents amounts due for past shows, and not for any recent show. The figure of £415,000 under sub-head K. represents only the cost of provisions for extra troops. The ration scale is strictly adhered to, and I can assure the Deputy that the question of waste, while it may be likely to arise here and there, is being very strictly watched, and wherever it is found to exist it is got after immediately.In regard to the £66,000 under sub-head CC. for reserve medical supplies, those are supplies which we are holding as against supplies which we feel should have been in the hands of various local authorities, but which were not secured. We have gone out of our way to secure these, and hold them in case of emergency. If an emergency arises, or perhaps before that, they will be passed on to the various local authorities.

Deputy Benson mentioned the question of steel helmets. Unfortunately, at the moment we cannot say that we have any great reserve of those which we could hand over to private concerns such as he has suggested. We will continue to make an effort to secure as many of that type of headgear as possible, but whether it is possible to secure sufficient to supply private concerns is very doubtful.

Deputy Morrissey asked some questions about the Construction Corps. The Construction Corps, of course, was established mainly for the purpose of providing training for young men between the ages of 18 and 25. Our desire was to build these young fellows up, to feed them well and to make them capable of undertaking hard work. At the present moment, while we have not secured a battalion—a battalion represents, I think, about 800 men—we have got well over 500, and from the reports which I am receiving from the officers in charge everything appears to be very satisfactory. Those who joined in the early stages, who have received their initial training, are now being introduced, probably for the first time, to work of a not too strenuous character. The whole idea behind the training is to move forward gradually in such a way that there will be nothing in the nature of undue strain put upon any of these young fellows who, up to the time they joined this Corps, were quite unfitted for hard manual labour.

I think I have answered all the questions which were put by Deputies. I do not think there is anything I can add to what I have already said in respect to the Army. We will continue to recruit until we get the number which is the maximum to which we are allowed to go and, if possible, we will make arrangements, by releasing some of these trained soldiers, to get in more recruits in order to get a greater number of the citizens of this country trained and disciplined and made ready for any possible emergency that may be likely to arise.

I have reasons for——

Does the Deputy desire to ask a question?

Well, to repeat the questions which I asked, and I have reasons for doing so. Can the Minister give an assurance that none of the contracts handed out to firms in this country have been sub-let and that the premises upon which the work of making clothes for the Army is being carried on are subject to the close and periodical examination of the factory and workshops' inspectors?

Yes; I forgot to mention that when I was talking. The Deputy, of course, knows what I am going to say is a fact, that is, that the Post Office is responsible for the clothing contracts but I understand that, as far as possible, I think in practically every case, the terms of the fair wage clause are being adhered to. I would suggest that the Deputy would address the question to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs so as to get the full information that he desires or, if he wishes, I will do it for him.

Has the Minister considered the provision of a meal for members of the Army at a later hour than 4 o'clock in the afternoon? It seems a hardship that there is no such provision.

Yes. I suppose I should not say this—but, actually, the Army, while they do not want it to be generally regarded as a right, are providing tea and something light in the evenings.

Has not the soldier to pay for that?

I would rather the Deputy would ask me that question outside.

Vote put and agreed to.
Vote reported and agreed to.
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