Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Office of the Minister for Education. – Dáil Éireann (10th Dáil) – Tuesday, 27 May 1941

Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Office of the Minister for Education.

Aire Oideachais (Tomás O Deirg)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £127,842 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1942, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Oideachais.

That a sum, not exceeding £127,842, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1942, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education.

£4,951,924 an t-iomlán a iarrtar anois le haghaidh na n-ocht Vótaí ata dá stiúradh ag an Roinn seo i gcomparáid le £4,950,889 le haghaidh na bliana 1940-41 (ag áireamh Vótaí Breise), sin méadú £1,935. Siad so na prímhdhifríochta idir an dá bhliain.

Vóta 45—Oifig an Aire Oideachais.— Laghdú £3,821 de bharr, ar an gcuid is mó de, folúntaisí áirithe d'fhágaint gan líonadh le linn an chogaidh d'fhonn airgead do shábháil. 'Na theannta san chífear gur i gcóir roinnt den bhfoirinn atá ar iasacht ag Ranna eile, mar an Roinn Soláthairtí, gan éinne curtha na n-áit £6,673 den tsuim airgid a iarrtar.

Vóta 46—Bun-Oideachas. — Fé'n gceann-teideal Oidí d'Oiliúint tá laghdú £8,276 de bharr gan an méid san do leigint dá oiliúint mar oidí go dtí go mbeidh postanna ar fáil d'oidí atá díomhaoin. Tá sábháilt £16,000 i dtuarastal agus deontaisí eile na n-oidí toise méid na bpost atá ar fáil ins na scoileanna i mbliana do bheith níos lugha ná mar a bhí anuraidh.

Níor baineadh feidhm oiread agus a ceapadh as an scéim chun leabhair do sholáthar i n-aisce do leanbhaí bochta. An £9,000 a cuireadh ar fáil le haghaidh 1940/41 ba mhó é de £3,700 ná mar ba ghádh agus tá sé leagaithe anuas mar sin go £7,500 don bhliain seo.

Vóta 47—Meádhon-Oideachas. — Tá méadú £15,400 ar an Vóta so de bharr líon na scoláirí a cuirtear ar rollaí na meadhon-scoileanna do bheith ag éirghe i ndiaidh a chéile. Tháinig méadú ó 36,647 go 37,670 ar an líon san sa bhliain seo caithte.

Vóta 48—Ceárd-Oideachas. —Tá an soláthar le haghaidh scoláireachtaí (focheann-teideal A) árduighthe ó £160 go £1,208 fá bhrághaid na scoláireachtaí atá beartuithe a chur ar fáil sa Scoil Nuaidh Oiliúna d'Oidí Tighis i Sráid Chathal Brugha.

Tá éirghe £12,755 ins na deontaisí bliantúla do choistí gairm-oideachais. Tá áirmhthe annsan deontas speisialta £4,889 do Choiste Chathair Bhaile Atha Cliath a coimeádadh siar sa bhliain 1939/40 go dtí go mbeadh socair cé'n bonn ar a n-áirmheofaí an síntiús a bhéadh le tabhairt ag Bárdas Bhaile Atha Cliath.

Vóta 49—Eolaidheacht agus Ealadha. —Mar atá i gcás vóta 45 tá sábháilt airgid le linn an chogaidh ar thuarastail. Tá roinnt folúntaisí san Musaeum Náisiúnta, sa Leabharlainn Náisiúnta, agus sa Choláiste Ealadhan ná líonfar go fóill. £1,256 an méid a sábháilfear mar sin.

B (1)—Foillsiúcháin i nGaedhilg.— Bhí beartuithe nuair a bhí an Meastachán so dá ollmhú obair an Ghúim do ghearradh anuas d'fhonn airgead do shábháil, agus do leagadh anuas an méid a iarradh ó £9,000 go £4,750. Deineadh aith-bhreithniú ar an scéal idir an dá linn, ámhthach, taobh le ceist fostaíochta i gceárd na clódóireachta agus tá súil againn le hoiread clódóireachta do dhéanamh agus a thabharfaidh faoiseamh éigin sa cheist sin.

Vóta 50—Scoileanna Ceartucháin agus Scoileanna Tionnscail.—Bhí áirmhthe sa tsuim £120,300 a vótáladh le haghaidh 1940/41, deontas speisialta neamh-fhilltigh £2,500 do scoil ceartúcháin na mbuachaillí. Má fágtar an scéim sin as an áireamh, tá méadú £1,540 sa mhéid a iarrtar, de bhárr méadú ar an líon daoine a cuirtear go scoileanna ceartúcháin agus go scoileanna tionnscail.

Vóta 71—Institiúd Árd-Léighinn Bhaile Atha Cliath. —Do chuid den bhliain an soláthar a deineadh i gcóir 1940/41. An méid atá á iarraidh anois meastachán é ar chostas na hInstitiúide le haghaidh an chéad bliana iomláine ó bunuíodh í. Nuair a bhí na meastacháin don Roinn Oideachais dá gcur ós cóir na Dála anuiridh do thug an Taoiseach, a bhí 'na Aire Oideachais an t-am san, léargus cruinn ar chúrsaí na mBrainnsí uile atá fé riaradh mo Roinne-se. Os féidir a rádh go bhfuil an buan-staid i ngach Rannóig Oideachais do réir an léarguis sin a tugadh, níl ar intinn agam an talamh san d'ath-shiúl ach amháin sa mhéid go ndeárnadh forbairt ó shoin i ngach ceann des na Brainnsí sin.

I gcúrsaí bun-oideachais, bun- sheirbhís agus taca na seirbhísí eile, siad na prímh-nithe atá i gceist ná foirgnithe scoile do sholáthar, fóirne teagaisc do chur ins na scoileanna, an freastal scoile do bheith chó hárd agus is féidir é, clár oiriúnach teagaisc do leagaint amach agus módhanna oiriúnacha i dteagasc na n-abhar léighinn do chur i bhfeidhm.

Maidir le foirgnithe scoile do chur ar fáil, is oth liom a rádh nár bhfoláir an soláthar airgid 'na gcóir do ghearradh anuas de bharr an trom-chostais ba ghádh a dhéanamh ar nithe eile sa phráinn náisiúnta. Nuair a ghlac an céad Riaghaltas Gaedheal seirbhísí an Oideachais Náisiúnta ós na Coimisinéirí, bhí mór-chuid i ndiaidh láimhe, maidir le foirgnithe scoile, le déanamh suas de bhrí gur stadadh de dheontaisí i gcóir foirgnithe scoile do thabhairt ar feadh cuid de thréimhse an chogaidh agus de bhrí nár tugadh go leor airgid an tráth san chun scoileanna oiriúnacha do thógáil.

Ins na blianta ón am san i leith bhí iarracht á dhéanamh ag Riaghaltas na tíre seo teacht suas leis an easnamh san. Treóir é ar an méid oibre atá déanta ins na deich mbliana deireannacha so gur caitheadh breis is milliún go leith púnt as ciste an stáit agus ós cionn leath-mhilliún púnt de shíntiúsaí áitiúla ar an obair seo. Sin dhá mhilliún púnt ar fad. Tá fós, is oth liom a rádh, ós cionn 300 scoileanna náisiúnta atá curtha síos mar thithe mí-fholláine mí-oiriúnacha agus, d'ainneoin na práinne náisiúnta, ní mór dúinn dul ar aghaidh le scoileanna nua do thógaint 'na n-áit siúd chó maith leis an scéim mór tógála atá riachtanach de bharr na n-athruithe atá déanta ar an tiughdas daonraidh i gceanntracha Bhaile Átha Cliath.

Maidir le fóirne na scoileanna, sé an príomh-rud le tabhairt fé ndeara go bhfuil an bhreis ban-oidí a bhí gan post ag dul i laighead go tiugh ach go bhfuil an bhreis fear atá go fóill gan post go hárd fós, agus tá slighte eile chun an scéal san d'fheabhsú dá mbreithniú fé láthair ag mo Roinn-se.

Maidir le dul chun cinn na scoláirí ins na scoileanna náisiúnta, tá slighte ceaptha againn chun cómh-oibriú níos dlúithe a bheith eatortha san atá ag gabháil d'obair oideachais. Deineadh an cómh-oibriú san tré chomhdhála bliantúla do thionóladh idir na hardchigirí, agus idir na cigirí san agus ionadaithe na n-oidí; 'na ndiaidh sin bíonn cómhdháil idir gach Roinnchigire agus na cigirí ceanntair atá faoi 'na stiúradh. Níl aon cheist ach go bhfuil toradh sásúil ar an gcómhoibriú san. Cuirim i gcás, bhí os mo chóir tuairiscí na gcigirí insan bhliain seo caithte agus is léir uatha sin gur imthigh toradh cómhdháil na nÁrd-Chigirí i Mí Eanair, 1940, go mór i bhfeidhm ar an obair ins na scoileanna —go háirithe i dteagasc (1) labhairt na Gaedhilge, (2) léitheoireacht, Gaedhilge agus Bearla, agus (3) Uimhríocht.

I labhairt na Gaedhilge tá tugtha faoi ndeara ag na Roinn-chigirí go bhfuil dul chun cinn éigin déanta. Ní tugtar oiread ama anois don léitheoireacht ós árd agus tagrann na cigirí go speisialta don iarracht atá dá dhéanamh chun caoi a thabhairt dos na scoláirí iad féin do chur in úil tré Ghaedhilg a mhinicí agus is féidir é. Maidir le Léitheoireacht—Gaedhilg agus Béarla—tá níos mó aire dá thabhairt anois don léitheoireacht ós íseal, d'iarracht aon scoláire (ins na ranganna is aoirde) chun brí caibidile nó ailt d'fháil amach dó féin, agus tá miniú an ábhair léite dá dhéanamh níos tuigsionaighe.

Deirtear coiteannta go bhfuil uimhríocht ar na hábhair is laige. Ní mór a rádh go bhfuil au laige céana ann go fóill—gan dóthain aire dá thabhairt d'obair cómhráidh, ceachtanna fada mí-oiruínacha ag úsáid uimhreacha móra maille le slighte sean-fhaisiúnta. Tá iarracht dá dhéanamh amhthach ins na ceanntracha uile chun é seo do leigheas. Tá an dul ar aghaidh insan obair shnáthaide sásuil nó ana-shásúil, do réir na dtuairiscí; insan cócaireacht agus nigheachán tá an obair go hana mhaith agus tá méadú i méid na scoileanna atá ag gabháil don ábhar san. Tá feabhas cinnte tagaithe ar an amhránuíocht agus cuirtear an feabhas sin i leith an chláir nua san abhar san, agus na "Nótaí" do mhúinteoirí, agus dicheall na dtimthirí ceóil.

Insan oiliúint naoidheanán, braitheann duine gur féidir don obair a bheith ana-shásúil, agus go mbíonn go minic, nuair a bhíonn seomra oiriúnach agus gléas ceart ann agus múinteoir oilte; ach insan gnáth-scoil dhá oide, nuair a bhíonn Rang I, II agus uaireannta Rang a III faoi chúram múinteoir na naoidheanán, agus nuair ná bíonn an múinteoir ana-oilte sa Ghaedhilg ní bhíonn toradh na hoibre chó sásúil sin. D'iarramar le déanaighe ar na cigirí uile aire speisialta do tha bhairt do mhúineadh na naoidheanán agus d'úsáid na Gaedhilge mar ghléas múinte, insan leith-bhliain seo chughainn.

Maidir le húsáid na Gaedhilge mar gléas múinte i ranganna níos aoirde ná ranganna naoidheanán, braithtear ós na tuairiscí go bhfuil toradh sásúil ar an obair suas go dtí rang a III nó a IV ach gur leasc le múinteoirí na ranganna is aoirde ná sin Gaedhilg d'úsáid mar ghléas múinte. Is mór an trua san mar ní hamháin ná deineann na scoláirí aon dul chun chinn in úsáid na Gaedhilge i 90% des na ranganna is aoirde ach tá baol ann go gcaillfidh siad an Ghaedhilg atá aca cheana agus go geaillfidh na múinteorí féin ins na ranganna is aoirde a gcumas sa teangain ceal taithighe. Samhluíonn sé freisin gur mall an dul ar aghaidh atá dhá dhéanamh maidir le Gaedhilg d'úsáid mar ghléas cómhráidh idir múinteoirí agus scoláirí agus i measc na scoláirí féin.

Maidir leis an gclár, tá na cigirí, do réir deallraimh, ar aon aigne go bhfuil sé sásúil. Maidir leis an moladh go dtabharfaí thar n-ais tigheas mar abhar éigeantach do chailíní agus eolas ar nádúir do bhuachaillí, is baol liom go dteipfeadh glan ar na hoidí an obair bhreise seo d'iomchar insan gnáth-scoil dhá oide, agus scoileanna den tsaghas seo dhá dtrian des na scoileanna sa tír seo.

Ceann des na nithe atá ag déanamh imnidhe dom Roinn-se, cé go bhfuil an scrúdú fán teistiméireacht ar bhunoideachas le deich mbliana anuas ann, ná bíonn aon scoláirí istigh ar an scrúdúchán sin ó fhurmhór mhór na gnáth-scoileanna náisiúnta sa tír. Sé an tslighe 'na bhfuil an scéal maidir leis seo, cé go gcuireann furmhór na gclochar agus 80% nach mór de scoileanna na mBráthar a gcuid daltaí isteach ar an scrúdú seo gach bliain, nár chuir 20% des na gnath-scoileanna náisiúnta a gcuid daltaí isteach ar an scrúdúchán aon tráth.

Is féidir go dtabharfaí mar argóint nach bhfuil aon ghádh le scrúdúchán scríobhtha dos na scoláirí i scoileanna náisiúnta na tíre seo toisc cigireacht do bheith dá dhéanamh ar na scoileanna san go féiltiúil. Sé fírinne an scéil nach féidir, ceal ama agus fuirinne, cigireacht do dhéanamh ach ar mhéid áirithe des na scoileanna gach bliain; agus fiú amháin dá bhféadfaí cigireacht bhliantúil do dhéanamh ar na scoileanna uile ní hionann in aon chor cigireacht agus scrúdúchán nuair atá dul chun cinn na scoláirí, 'na nduine is 'na nduine, dá mheas. Treó anaéifeachtúil seadh an chigireacht chun obair gheinearálta aon scoile do mheas, ach, mar is dual dó, ní féidir é bheith ach 'na thuairim gheinearálta. Taobh amuigh de sin tá an t-eolas a gheibhtear ón gcigireacht, fiú amháin ins na scoileanna atá scrúdúithe in aon bhliain amháin, ana-gheinearálta óir tá ainmithe faoin téarma so-lúbtha san "éifeachtach" oidí atá gar do bheith gan éifeacht suas go dtí oidí atá gan dabht árd-éifeachtach. Tuigfear dá bhrí sin gur féidir torthaí ana-mhíchothroma d'fháil maidir le na scoláirí uile.

Is féidir go ndéarfaí go mbunóch cigire maith a bhreith ar aon scoil ar scrúdúchán chó maith le cigireacht, ach caithfidh an scrúdú a dhéanfadh cigire ar na scoláirí a bheith ana-theoranta. Níl againn ach 65 cigirí agus bheadh sé thar chumas na gcigirí sin dul chun chinn 400,000 scoláirí nach mór do mheas 'na nduine is 'na nduine, fiú amháin dá mba nach raibh aon obair eile le déanamh ag na cigirí sin. Má tá uainn deimhin a dhéanamh de dhul chun cinn an uile scoláire is léir go gcaithfear triail níos cruinne do chur in úsáid, agus níl aon tslighe eile chun an triail bhreise seo do sholáthar ach tríd an tsean-scéim do thabhairt thar n-ais le n-ar cuireadh scrúdú ar gach scoláire in gach ábhar ám éigin ag druidim le deire a chúrsa sa scoil náisiúnta. Go dtí go mbeidh scrúdú den tsaghas san againn, ní féidir aon deimhniú do bheith ag an bpobal go bhfuil an líon scoláirí a fhágann na scoileanna náisiúnta le heolas sásúil ar na trí abhair sin, léitheoireacht, scríobhnóireacht agus uimhríocht, maith go leor chun an costas mór, £4,000,000 nach mór, ar na scoileanna seo do chothromú. Sé an scéim do b'fhearr, im' thuairim-se, go raghadh na múinteoirí mar chumann i nbun an scrúdúcháin seo le cómh-oibriú agus cabhair na Roinne seo, agus bhí súil agam go ndéanfaidís amhlaidh.

D'fhonn gach constaic do shárú do thairg Roinn an Oideachais an scrúdúchán ar fad nach mór do thabhairt do Chumann na Múinteoirí d'fhonn aon imnidhe a bheadh ortha maidir le caighdeán an deacrachta do chur ar cheal. Is trua nach raibh an Chomhdháil a bhí aca sásta glacadh leis an dtairgsint agus dá thoradh san, ní mór dúinn-na, is baol liom, an scrúdúchán do thionóladh agus é bheith 'na scrúdúchán éigeantach do gach scoláire atá ar chaighdeán áirithe. Dá bhféadfainn teacht ar aon tslighe eile as chun a dheimhniú go mbeadh eolas sásúil ar na habhair riachtanacha ag gach scoláire nuair a fhágann sé an scoil náisiúnta, bheadh áthas orm glacadh leis, ach, in éaghmuis cómh-oibriú na múinteoirí, ní fheicim aon tslighe chun scrúdúcháin scríobhtha éiginteacha do sheachaint muna mbeimíd sásta bheith gan aon chaighdeán chun dul chun cinn gach scoláire do mheas.

Maidir le tinnreamh na scoláirí, tá idir lámhaibh againn, mar is eol díbh, Bille leasuithe a dhéanfaidh, tá súil againn, an scéal do riaradh níos cruinne agus a dhéanfaidh deimhin de mheán-tinnreamh níos aoirde.

Maidir leis seo ní misde dhom tagairt don scéim chun páistí scoile do dhílonnú ó Bhaile Atha Cliath agus ó Dhún Laoghaire. Tá sa scéim sin:

(1) Páistí d'aois scoile (6-14 bliana) gan coimhdeacht.

(2) Páistí bhun sé bliana d'aois fé choimhdeacht a máthar nó ban-chaomhnóra eile.

I mí Feabhra so caithte, cuireadh ar fáil caoi chun clarú do dhéanamh fén scéim.

Sé líon na bpáistí a meastar a cláruíodh:

Páistí scoile gan coimhdeacht:—
Buachaillí	15,345
Cailíní	15,242	30,587
Páistí scoile fé choimhdeacht:—
Fé bhun 6 bliana	55,415
6 go 13 bliana	36,638	92,053

Caithfear na figúirí sin d'athrú nuair bheidh eolas fachta ar an líon páistí a cláruigheadh sa tseachtain dár chríoch 26adh Abrán, 1941.

Cuirfear cóir ar pháistí scoile gan coimhdeacht i dtithe muintire san líomataiste 'na aistríothar iad. Cuirfear páistí ón scoil chéana go dtí an ceanntar céana chó mhaith agus is féidir é. Cuirfear cóir ar pháistí ón lín tighe céana chó maith agus is féidir é sa teaghlach chéana nó i dteaghlacha i bhfíor-chomhgar dá chéile. Déanfar gach socrú ar mhaithe le cúram agus compórd na bpáistí 'na n-áit comhnaithe nua, chó maith le scolaíocht do chur ar fáil dóibh. Beidh cead ag tuismitheoirí dul ag feiscint a bpáistí.

Caithfidh go mbeidh a lán deacrachtaí ann ag cur na scéime sin i bhfeidhm —rud is dóchas linn ná tarlóidh— scrúdú na bpáistí ag dochtúirí, tiomsú na bháistí a bheadh le di-lonnú, feithmheoireacht do dhéanamh ar na páistí ins na líomatáistí na rachaid, na páistí do roinnt ar na líomatáistí sin, socrú do dhéanamh i gcóir a scoluíochta, agus mar sin de. Cóimhoibreoidh na hoidí ins an obair sin, gan amhras, más gádh é, leis an dúthracht ionmholta chéana a chaitheadar le hobair an chláruithe. Is mian liom fíor-bhuidheachas do bhreith leo de chionn na dúthrachta san.

Arae go raibh laghdú ar líon na ndaltaí scoile le blianta beaga anuas, is maith liom a rádh go bhfuil líon na ndaltaí ar rollaí na meán-scoltach ag dul i méid. D'eirigh líon na ndaltaí seo ó 27,645 go dtí 37,670 ins na blianta 1930 go dtí 1940. Is ionann sin agus méadú tuairim's 1,000 dalta sa mbliain. Béidh tuairim agus 38,720 dalta ar na rollaí i gcóir na scoil-bhliana seo— méadú tuairim agus 1,000 dalta eile. Thairis sin, ní féidir a rádh go bhfuilimíd ag druidim leis an am nuair nach féidir breis scoláirí do thabhairt isteach sna scoltacha seo agus, dá bhrígh sin, níl aon chosúlacht fós ann gur féidir an caithteachas ar mheanoideachais do bhuanú ar an bhfigiúir atá againn fé láthair.

Do réir meadú so an tinnrimh tá líon na fóirne teagaise sna meán-scoltacha ag méadú freisin. Ins na deich mbliain ó 1930 go dtí 1940, d'éirigh líon na múinteoirí sna scoltacha seo ó 2,551 go dtí 3,144. Mar a gcéanna, d'eirigh líon na múinteoirí a bhfuil tuarasdal breise d'á fháil aca ó 1,187 go dtí 1,584 sa tréimhse chéanna. Bhí méadú dá réir i líon na meén-scoltach a h-aithníodh ó 294 sa mbliain 1929-30 go dtí 352 sa mbliain 1940/41.

Gídh mór an méadú é seo idir líon na daltaí agus na bhfuireann, tá áthas orm a rádh gur mó fós an méadú ar líon na ndaltaí a ghníonn a gcuid oibre uilig fríd an nGaedhilg amháin. Sa tréimhse 1934-1940, cuirim i gcás, méaduíodh fá dhó an líon daltaí den dream seo, sa tslighe go bhfuil tuairim agus trian de dhaltaí na Meán-Scoltacha uilig ag déanamh a gcuid oibre fríd an nGaedhilg amháin agus tá trian eile go bhfuil mór-chuid den obair á dhéanamh frid an teangain chéanna aca. Is iongantach gan aimhreas an dul chun cinn atá déanta ar an mbealach seo.

Tárluíonn go bhfuil méadú £15,400 ar na measteacháin i mbliana in aghaidh deontaisí caipitíochta agus tuarasdail bhreise de bharr na méadú seo dár thagras, gidh gur gearradh anuiridh, mar bheart coigiltis le linn na práinne seo, na deontaisí speisialta do scoileanna i Roinn A agus B de bharr teagaisc tré Ghaedhilg agus na deontaisí saotharlainne i leith teagaisc in abhair eolaíochta, agus go bhfuil an gearradh seo i bhfeidhm arís i mbliana.

Maidir le hobair na mean-scoltacha, tá forbairt mhór le tabhairt fá ndeara mar gheall ar an athrú ar na cúrsaí in abhair áithride. Suas go dtí an bhliain 1925, bhíodh téicseanna ar leith ar chlár na meadhon-scoltach go háirthid i gcás na dteangthacha agus bunuightí na scrúdúcháin ar na téicseanna seo. O'n mbliain sin annas ceapadh cláir níos leithne d'fhonn is go mbéadh na scoltacha in ann a rogha féin de chúrsaí staidéir agus leabhar do bheith aca, do réir mar d'fheilfeadh dóibh. Níor leanadh ach an oiread de na trí scrúdúcháin, eadhon, grád sóisearach, meán-ghrád agus grád sinnsearach, agus cuireadh 'na n-ionad dhá scrúdúchán—scrúdúchán na meán-teistiméarachta agus scrúdúchán na hárdteistiméarachta.

Fuarthas amach, ámhthach, go raibh lochtanna ar an gcineál cláir ilghnéithigh seo, go háirthid thréis é do thriail le scrúdúchán scríobhtha. B'éigean do na scoltacha cúrsa fóirleathan ar mhór-chuid abhar do theagasc agus séard a thárla, d'á chionn sin, go mbíodh na daltaí fá bhruidiúlacht mhíochuimsighe, amanntaí, agus nach bhfuigheadh cuid mhaith aca ach eolas neamh-bhairthinneach ar na habhair. Níor mhór na lochta seo do leigheas ionnus go bhfuigheadh na scoláirí oiliúint níos fearr i gcruinneas agus i bhfoirbhtheacht agus, chuige sin, do socruíodh le gairid an cúrsa do ghiorrú i gcás na dteangthacha agus méid áirthid de theicseanna éiginteacha do chur leis na cúrsaí i gcás gach teangan dhiobh. Do deineadh an t-atharú so cheana in abhair áirithe —Laidean, Gréigis agus Nuadh-theangthachta na Mór-Roinne—agus tá socair é dhéanamh sa Ghaedhilg agus sa Bhéarla sa bhliain seo chughainn.

Fé mar adubhairt mé cheana, ní bhíonn ach an dá scrúdú ann i rith an chúrsa mheadhon-oideachais fé láthair. An chéad ceann díobh seo, an meadhon-teistiméireacht, tá sé chun tosaigh go maith agus téigheann scoláirí idir 15 agus 16 bliana d'aois fé. Ós rud é go dtéigheann cuid mhaith scoláirí isteach ins na meadhon-scoileanna nuair a bhíonn 12 bhliain slán aca, ceapann a lán daoine gur cheart go gcuirfí scrúdú puiblí breise ar bun d'fhonn a fháil amach cé an dul-ar-aghaidh a bheadh déanta ag an scoláirí thar éis bliain nó dhó do chaitheamh ins na meadhon-scoileanna, agus táthar ag breithniú an scéil seo faoi láthair.

Maidir leis na hatharuithe a deineadh ins na cláir, tá socrú á dhéanamh fé láthair chun go mbeidh cómh-cheangal níos dlúithe idir na cúrsaí atá leagtha síos ins na habhair ilghnéitheacha i gcóir Scrúdú Maithreánaigh na hIolscoile Náisiúnta agus Scrúdú na hÁrd-Teistiméarachta (Pas). Séard atá ceapaithe ná go mbeidh na cúrsaí ins na habhair uilig agus an caighdeán deacrachta ar an ndul céanna don dá scrúdú. Ghlac lucht stiúrtha na hIolscoile le moltaí na Roinne faoi'n sceál seo agus beidh an socrú nua i bhfeidhm le haghaidh scrúduithe na bliana seo chughainn (1942). Is usa go mór a bheidh obair na scoileanna a ullmhuíonn scoláirí ins na ranganna árda le haghaidh na hÁrd-Teistiméarachta agus scrúduithe na hIolscoile.

Maidir le gairm oideachas, tá an t-éileamh ar oideachas leanúnach agus ceárd-oideachas ag dul i méid ar fuaid na tíre i gcoitcheann sa tslighe go bhfuil méadú i líon na scoláirí ins na liomatáistí uile nach mór. Tá an obair sásúil i gcoitcheann. Bhí dul-ar-aghaidh an-mhaith ar fad ann aon uair a cuireadh cúrsaí printíseachta ar siúl, i.e., i gclódóireacht, agus chuir idir fostuitheoirí agus ceárd-chumainn anaspéis ionnta. Tugadh cúrsaí den tsórd so freisin i ndéanamh uaireadóirí, i mbácaireacht, i dtógáil tithe agus i gceárdanna eile, agus bhí toradh fónta ortha san leis. D'fhéadfaí a rádh, i gcoitcheann, gur mór an buntáiste dos na ceárdanna san an oiliúint teicniciúil a tugadh inár scoileanna.

Maidir le hoideachas leanúnach, bhí an dul-ar-aghaidh céanna ann a bhí ins na blianta a ghaibh tharainn. Is mór an chúis áthais dom bheith in ann a rádh go bhfuil breis ar uimhir na ngairm-scoil tuaithe. Tá 69 des na scoileanna tábhachtacha san ann anois, agus fan an tseisiúin dheireannaigh dhein 2,400 scoláirí cúrsaí i neoluidheacht tuaithe amháin. Bhí, mar is eól díbh is dócha, locht á fháil ar na scoileanna gairm-oideachais fén dtuaith aca-san a mheas gur chóir dos na scoileanna sin claoidhe go dlúth le heolas ar nádúir, siúinéireacht agus tigheas, agus gan bacaint le habhair tráchtála.

Deallruíonn sé gurab i an fhadhb is mó sa chás so ná daoine do mheas nach bhfuil ins na scoileanna gairm-oideachais ach gléas chun postanna d'fháil dá bpáistí ins na cathracha agus na bailtí móra, in ionad é bheith mar ghléas chun an saoghal agus obair na talmhan d'fheabhsú. Dá bhrí sin, tá claonadh ins na daoine óga faillighe do dhéanamh ar na ranganna eolais ar nádúir d'fhonn freastal ar ranganna in abhair eile. Adeirtear liom, maidir leis na buachaillí atá ag freastal na scoileanna seo, nach buachaillí iad a bhfurmhór go bhfuil coinne aca leis an bhfeirm d'fháil mar oidhreacht, ach na buachaillí is óige de'n chlainn go mbíonn ortha postanna d'fháil i mball éigin eile agus go bhfuil coinne aca leis na scoileanna do thabahairt an chaoi sin dóibh. Má soláthruightear ranganna a thugann caoi chun postanna den tsaghas sin deinid freastal ortha; muna soláthruightear iad, lorguightear i mball éigin eile iad.

Mar sin ní hé soláthar na ranganna in eolas ar nádúir an t-aon ní amháin ach buachaillí d'fháil chun freastal ortha. Dá ndeintí éiginteach an freastal ar na ranganna só, réiteoch sé an fhadhb. Ach tá constaicí móra i gcoinnibh freastal do dhéanamh éiginteach do bhuachaillí ós cionn 14 bliana i liomatáistí fén dtuaith agus, in éaghmais sin, sé an t-aon réiteach amháin ar an gceist príomh-oide nó múinteóir eolais ar nádúir d'fháil dos na scoileanna so fén dtuaith go bhfuil an mianach ionnta seasamh i gcoinnibh na bhfórsaí atá ag tiomáint daoine óga ón dtalamh.

Is deacra, faraoir, fir den tsaghas sin d'fháil ná múinteóirí éifeachtacha ins na habhair eile. Cuirim i gcás, má tá eolas maith ag an oide ar abhair thráchtála, is beag gádh atá aige le láidreacht charachtair ná intinne chun na habhair sin do mhúineadh le héifeacht. Éiligheann rithim seol an lae indiu na habhair sin. Nuair a dheineann, ámh, scoil gairm-oideachais iarracht ar chlár cheart do sholáthar don tuaith, is lugha go mór an t-éileamh air, agus bíonn roimh an bpríomh-oide agus an múinteóir eolas ar nádúir deacrachtaí a bhainfidh go mór d'éifeacht na ranganna ins na h-abhair tuatha, muna sáruightear iad.

Ceann de na níthe mar sin a chuirfidh críoch fhónta ar na scoileanna tuatha, múinteóirí d'fháil go bhfuil, ní amháin an cháilíocht aca atá riachtanach in eolas ar nádúir agus abhair dá leithéid agus eolas doimhinn ar shaol na tuatha aca ach go bhfuil ionnta an cumas chun aigne na ndaoine do threórú agus go bhfuil aca leis meas ar shaol na tuatha. Ní fuirist daoine den tsaghas san d'fháil ach in a n-éaghmuis san, ní réiteofar an fhadhb tré scol tuatha do chur suas 'na mbíonn eolas ar nádúir mar abhar den chlár.

Séard a thagann as an scéal ait seo go léir go bhfuil na scoileanna tuatha ag gluaiseacht go mall i gcúrsaí tuaitheoluidheachta. Des na 141 scoileanna leanúnacha atá ar siúl fé láthair, níl cúrsa iomlán in eolas ar nádúir agus i dtigheas ach i 69 díobh atá i liomatáistí tuatha nó i liomatáistí gairid dó. Tá an Roinn, i n-a dhiaidh sin, ar a dícheall ag iarraidh obair den tsaghas so do chur ar aghaidh. Cuireann an pobal i gcuid des na conndaethe oiread san suime innte go mbítear ag faire go géar an triaileacha a deintear ins na garrdhaí. I gConndae Chorcaighe, cuir i gcás, bhí na daoine chó leathta san ar ceann des na garrdhaí ag gairm-scoil Dhroichead na Banndan nárbh fholáir é oscailt dóibh trí uaire sa tseachtain. Tá tuarascgabhála maithe ar an ndul chéana fachta againn leis ó Chonndae Lughbhaidh, Conndae Luimnighe agus conndaethe eile.

Maidir leis an dul chun cinn i nGaedhilg ins na scoileanna gairm-oideachais, cé go bhfuil dul ar aghaidh déanta ins na scoileanna lae i gcoitchinne, ní féidir a rádh go bhfuil an staid 'na bhfuil múineadh na Gaedhilge i ranganna oiche go fíor-shásúil fós. Cé go gcuireann na pictiuirí reatha, an radio, rinncí, agus mar sin de isteach níos mó ar na ranganna oiche Gaedhilge ná mar a chuirid ar na habhair eile, tá, thairis sin, an rud seo, go bhfuil maitheas ó thaobh gnótha agus cúrsaí an tsaoil le baint go díreach as na habhair eile atá dá dteagasc ins na ranganna ceárd-oideachais san oiche agus ná fuil an maitheas céanna le baint as an nGaedhilg. Chun na fírinne a rádh, tá an gádh céanna le múinteoirí speisialta i nGaedhilg go bhfuil cumas gríosuithe agus cumas timthireachta ionnta agus atá leis na múinteoirí ar thagras dóibh maidir le heolas ar nádúir. Níl an glaoch céanna ag an dá abhar san agus atá ag an ngnáthabhar ceárd-oideachais ar an scoláire chun a chursa saolta d'fheabhsú. Ní mór slighte speisialta agus éifeacht ar leith chun go n-éireochadh leis na ranganna sin, ach nuair is timthirí maithe na múinteoirí agus go n-úsáideann siad na slighte atá riachtanach, éirigheann go maith leis na ranganna Gaedhilge a bhíonn ar siúl insan oiche. Sa tseisiún 1939-40, deineadh obair mhaith den tsaghas sin ins na condaethe seo leanas: Co. Chorcaighe, Co. na Gaillimhe, Co. Liathdroma, Co. Luimnighe, Co. Mhuigheo, Co. Mhuimhneacháin, Co. Ros Comáin, Co. Thiobrad Arann (Theas), Co. Phort Láirge, agus Co. Loch Garmáin.

Chun deimhin a dhéanamh de go mbeidh an scéal amhlaidh ag an tír go léir, tá socair ag an Roinn seo anois cúrsa ar leith do chur ar siúl chun múinteoirí Gaedhilge d'oiliúint. Tionóladh scrúdú comórtasach i Mí Eanair, 1941, ar a raibh 200 iarrathóir. Des na daoine is fearr de na hiarrathóirí seo, toghadh 19 díobhtha chun cúrsa speisialta oiliúna do thabhairt dóibh. Tosnuíodh ar an gcúrsa i Mí Márta, 1941. Tugtar aire speisialta in oiliúint an ghasra seo des na deacrachtaí a fuarathas cheana maidir le ranganna oiche i nGaedhilg a chur le chéile. 'Na theannta san beidh 'na chuid ana-thábhachtach dá gcuid oibre mar mhúinteoirí i n-a dhiaidh seo labhairt na Gaedhilge do thabhairt chun cinn imeasc na scoláirí ins na scoileanna lae gairm-oideachais. Chuige sin, tugadh tús áite i dtoghadh na n-iarrthóir dóibh sin go raibh cáilíocht aca i gceól, amhránaíocht nó drámaíocht, nó a bhí an-oilte ar chluichí Gaedhealacha nó rinncí Gaedhealacha. De thoradh an chúrsa sin tá coinne againn go ndéanfar i bhfad níos mó insan am atá le teacht chun teanga bheo a dhéanamh den Ghaedhilg ins na scoileanna gairm-oideachais.

Congnamh mór cun labhairt na Gaedhilge do chur ar aghaidh seadh na scoláireachtaí atá dá dtabhairt anois ag cosdí gairm-oideachais chun caoi a thabhairt do scoláirí toghtha mí do chaitheamh sa Ghaedhealtacht sa tSamhradh. Deineann na cigirí ins na ceanntracha uile tagairt don bhfeabhas atá tagaithe ar líomhthacht na scoláirí seo tar éis dóibh saoire a chaitheamh san Ghaedhealtacht. Is tábhachtaighe fós an t-uabhar atá ortha a theasbháint go bhfuil churtha aca le n-a líomhthacht sa teangain.

Maidir leis na coisdí gairm-oidis, ní amháin gur chóimhlíonadar a ngnáthdhualgaisí, ach tá mórán eile dualgaisí speisialta a bhaineas le saol eigandálach an lae indiu. Tuagdh léigheachtaí i 340 paráiste ar chúrsaí stórála, sabhála agus coigiltis bhidh. B'iad na coisdí gairm-oidis le cómhoibriú na gcomhairlí paráiste do chuir na léigheachtaí ar siul. Tuairim agus 16,000 léigheacht do tugadh fán scéim seo agus cuireadh an-tsuim ionnta.

Tá scéim léigheachtaí speisialta eile d'á cur ar bun faoi lathair maidir leis an nganntanas cruithneachtan agus bainfe siad le h-abhair mar atá "Usáid Fataí agus Min-Choirce in áit Pluir Chruithneachtan,""Béilí do Pháistí agus d'Othair le linn an Chogaidh,""Buntáistí Glasraí mar abhar Bidh-" Bhéarfar na léigheachtaí seo do lucht na bparáistí tuaithe agus na bparáistí baile agus féachfar leis go dtráchtfaidh siad ar riachtanaisí speisialta gach cineáil cheanntair. Táthar ag brath freisin leabhráin ar na ceisteanna seo d'ullmhú agus iad do chur chuig na coisdí ionnas nach mbéidh na daoine ar bheagán eolais i n-a dtaobh i gcás nach dtig leo na léigheachtaí d'fhreasdal.

Tá laghdú £960 ar na Meastacháin do na scoileanna ceartucháin agus saothair seachas mar a bhí sa bhliain Airgeadais 1940/41 tré bhithin meastachán breise a tugadh isteach anuraidh ar £2,500 mar dheontas speisialta neamh-fhillteach do bhainisteóirí na scoile ceartúcháin i nGleann Critheach mar chuidiú dóibh na fiacha do ghlanadh a tháinig ortha de bharr riaradh na scoile sin. Muna gcuirtear san áireamh an tsuim airgid sin, is soiléir go mbéadh méadú £1,540 ar an gcaithteachas ins na Meastacháin seo i gcomórtas le Meastacháin na bliana 1940/41.

Sa mbliain 1940/41, do b'éigean Meastachán breise eile ar £680 do rith. Bhí an tsuim seo ag teastáil cionn's nár leór an soláthar a rinneadh sa gcéad dul síos chun costaisí na bpáistí go léir a cuireadh chun na scoltach seo d'íoc. Tuigfear ó na Meastacháin go n-éirigheann an chuid is mó dhe'n mhéadú glan sin £1,540 as an soláthar i gcóir deontaisí cothuithe do na scoltacha saothair a bunuightear ar an Meastachán ar an méid páistí a cuirfear chun na scoltacha seo i gcaitheamh na bliana.

Mar adubharthas cheana, dúnadh an Scoil Cheartúcháin i nGleann Critheach i Mí Lughnasa seo caithte agus do haistríodh na buachaillí agus an fhuireann go léir go foirgneamh níos feiliúnaighe sa Daingean, Co. Ua bhFáilghe, atá fós fá stiúrú Oird na n-Obláideach. Tá pleananna déanta le mór-chuid athruithe agus méaduithe do dhéanamh ar an scoil sa Daingean. Ortha seo beidh seomraí ranga nua, seomraí folctha, seomraí codlata agus súgartha, &rl., chó maith le camraí nua. Tá cuid den obair seo (na camraí nua agus deisiú halla an bhidh) i ngar do bheith críochnuithe agus déanfar soláthar do na rudaí eile ó bhliain go chéile ar Vóta Oifig na n-Oibreacha bPoiblidhe.

General Mulcahy

I move:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

I do so to call particular attention to a thing which it is imperative, to my mind, to do at the present time, and that is that in the City of Dublin the school age should be extended, not only for boys, but also for girls. When we were dealing with the Vote on Account, in the middle of March, and dealing with the emergency situation here and the general economic and social conditions arising out of it, and when we were discussing certain things that we thought should be done to deal with the situation, I drew attention to the position in the City of Dublin as far as unemployment is concerned and to the fact that about 5,000 boys would be leaving primary schools this year, finishing their education with just the primary school course and going home with no hope at all of getting any employment in the city. I drew attention to the fact that they would be coming up against homes that were becoming more and more involved in the emergency position, homes having income difficulties and other difficulties, and that they would be unable to get employment, unable even to enter the Army or to enter the Construction Corps because of their age, and I suggested that we ought to see that position pretty clearly and ask ourselves what was intended by leaving boys of that age to go out into the streets of Dublin to-day.

The same thing, to my mind, applies to girls, and I am very disappointed that the Minister should not have faced up to that question. Apart altogether from the position in which these boys and girls are going to find themselves; apart from the ruinous effect, from the educational point of view, of their finding themselves in homes, with nothing to do, with very little or no incentive to study, and with very little hope of advancement for themselves and, perhaps, of their families—with all these things eating in on their morale, and apart from the effect on their education, we ought to consider what is going to be the moral effect of it, and we ought to consider what these young people are going to be like when they are facing the future world of, say, even four, five or six years to come. We ought to bear in mind that, apart from the difficulties of finding employment at the present time—if we were to prepare for the new position that was going to arise even here, where, please God, we may not be affected by the dislocation of war even to the extent of having to evacuate in the manner which the Minister has indicated—we still may have a very big change in all kinds of things, and we cannot be prepared here either in our morale, our technique or our intelligence, to meet the new situation unless preparation is made in the schools, on the minds of the young people who are leaving the schools, to face that situation.

I do not think this Estimate should be passed until Deputies in every part of the House ask themselves whether it is reasonable, in large centres of population like Dublin, Cork or Limerick, or even in urban centres throughout the country that may be much smaller, to allow children of 14 years to leave the primary schools now in order to hang around the streets or hang around their homes without any chance of getting employment, or without a special permit in the case of those who can get employment. I am speaking of the children attending primary schools.

The position in the City of Dublin is even more serious, because there the children are leaving school from crowded classes. I took at random 12 schools in the City of Dublin, north of the Liffey, in order to examine the size of the classes from which these children were leaving school. I took four boys' schools, four girls' schools, and four infants' schools. When I put the infants' schools here, I did not take them particularly for this purpose, but it is worth while looking at what these figures disclose. In the first school there are 13 classes of boys, and in each of three of the classes there are more than 50 boys, the average over the whole of the school being 44 children for the class. In the second school there are nine classes of infants, and in five of these there are more than 50 to the class, the average over the whole school being 52. In the third school there are 13 girls' classes, and in eight of these there are more than 50 girls in each class, the average over the whole school being 52. In the fourth school there are 28 classes. In 20 out of the 28 classes there are more than 50 girls in each class, the average over the whole school being 54. There are 19 classes in the fifth school, and in 12 of these there are more than 50 girls to the class, the average over the school being 52.

In the sixth school there are 14 classes, and in ten of them there are more than 50 to the class. The average over the whole school is 56. In the seventh school there are nine classes, in five of which there are more than 50 to the class, the average over the whole school being 50. In the eighth school there are seven classes. In four classes there are more than 50 to the class, and the average over the whole school is 56. In the ninth school there are ten classes, and in four of them there are more than 50 to the class, the average over the whole school being 47. There are eight classes in the tenth school, and in five of them there are more than 50 to the class, the average over the school being 54. In the eleventh school there are 15 classes, and four of them have more than 50 to the class. The average over the whole school is 46. In the twelfth school there are five classes, two of which have more than 50 to the class, the average over the whole school being 43.

Mr. Derrig

I think the Deputy is reading out the average on the roll. The average attendance is what counts, not the number on the rolls.

General Mulcahy

I am reading the average on the roll and I suggest the average on the roll for each school is the thing to which we ought to pay attention. I do not mean to mislead the House in any way. I am taking the average on the roll and the Minister can deal with that aspect later on, if he so desires. When we allot teachers to classes, the allocation should have some relation to the roll. Where you have, as in some cases, 55, 56, 59, 76, 77 and 79 children on the roll, the very fact that only one teacher is allotted to deal with a roll like that could easily be regarded as one of the things instrumental in keeping children at home.

These are the circumstances in the schools in Dublin from which these children are being released. I am giving the figures on the roll and I want to make a comparison with the position in Great Britain. In England and Wales in 1928, this matter having been considered, they came to the conclusion that the elimination of large classes throughout the schools must remain one of the cardinal objects of national educational policy. In 1938 certain statistics were prepared in three different sets of areas, the boroughs and urban districts, the county boroughs and the City of London. In the boroughs and urban districts there were 22,173 classes, and in 7.9 per cent. there were more than 50 children on the roll. Pursuing the policy that the elimination of the larger classes throughout the schools should remain one of the cardinal objects of national educational policy, by the year 1937-38 in the boroughs and urban districts that percentage had been reduced to 1.6.

In the case of the county boroughs, where the number of classes in the year 1928-29 was 46,408, 10.9 per cent. of these classes had 50 or more children on the roll and that percentage was reduced to 2.4 by 1937-38. In the City of London, where they had 15,129 classes in 1928-29, in 10.6 per cent. there were more than 50 on the roll and that percentage was reduced to 0.4 by 1937-38. You had over all the classes in the primary schools run under public authorities 7.2 per cent. with more than 50 on the roll and that was reduced to 1.4 per cent. at the end of the ten years.

We find ourselves in the position, taking at random these 12 schools in Dublin City, that in the case of boys 30.5 per cent. of the classes had more than 50 on the roll; in the case of girls, 66 per cent. had more than 50 on the roll, and in the case of infants, 58.5 per cent. had more than 50 on the roll. In the whole 150 classes in these 12 schools 55 per cent., or a total of 82 schools, had more than 50 pupils on the roll. In England and Wales, after ten years, they reduced the percentage in the schools run by the local authorities to 1.6 in the boroughs and urban districts, to 2.4 in the county boroughs, and to 0.4 in the City of London, and in the whole country it was reduced to 1.4.

The Minister in his statement says: "Until we have such an examination"—that is a definite compulsory examination for the leaving of a primary school—"the public cannot have any real guarantee that the actual proportion of pupils who leave the primary schools with a satisfactory knowledge of the three R's is such as to justify our huge expenditure of nearly £4,000,000 on those schools". It is not an overstatement of our ambitions with regard to our primary education process, nor I am sure is it the Minister's ambition, but when it is possible to write in the Minister's report here a sentence like that it does throw, I hope, a further light on my mind when I am asking the Minister to consider the position in the City of Dublin in this respect. At the same time, in these conditions we are endeavouring to give children in the primary schools in the city a good oral and reading grasp of the Irish language. I do not think that anybody who gives any kind of serious consideration to the matter could give a single reason, in our present economic and social conditions in the City of Dublin, for allowing either boys or girls of 14 to leave the primary schools. I would even say that, without a guarantee that they were going into employment of some kind and without some supervision, they ought not to be allowed to leave school at 16 years.

I agree that, in connection with deciding to prevent children of 14 or even 15 from leaving school at present, in addition to the problem of accommodation, there may be some problem with regard to teachers and also a problem with regard to a programme. But there are no people in Europe or in any other part of the world faced with emergencies to-day who have not shown that they are able to rise to them, to organise themselves to face and do something about them; and where you have people who are called upon to meet emergencies, in respect of which no preparation has been made, their position is a lamentable one. I do not think that there is any aspect of our emergency here that is more serious and more likely to have effects in the long run on our social, and perhaps our economic position here, than that problem which arises out of children in urban districts leaving school this year. All kinds of machinery can be thrown up for A.R.P., local security, or evacuation purposes, but I do not think that these problems are as serious as the education problem. I think it is particularly unfortunate at this moment to find the Department in the general routine of its work running underground.

I have had occasion on previous years to take some of the reports of the Department of Education and to point out weaknesses in mathematics and other things. We are now deprived of the chance of seeing, by way of a report, what the position is with regard to primary, secondary, and vocational education. The last report consisted of a set of statistics. We get normal statistics for the vocational and secondary schools. But, in the case of the primary schools, that branch of our education upon which most of our people are depending, not only do we get no report, but even the statistical information is cut down and some of the vital, informative statistical information that we might expect to get is not printed. The result is that people have to go without it and that being uninformed, as naturally many people are as to educational policy, theory and results, except in so far as they can see them in the children around them, they are deprived of information at a time when many people consider this the most important thing at which we could be working at present; this Department, which is simply going underground in this kind of way, gives a much less chance than ever to the general public of understanding what is going on.

I ask the Minister if he intends to allow children of 14 and 15 years of age to leave primary schools in the City of Dublin this year and go out on the street. If he does, then he might very well question what on earth we are spending millions of pounds on primary education for. The Minister in some place or another has indicated that there was still a surplus of male teachers as distinct from female teachers. The last information we have with regard to training colleges is contained in page 9 of the report for 1937-8, where it was stated that the "main factors in reducing the number of young teachers unemployed will be the special measures already indicated which were introduced in 1938 for the purpose of providing additional teaching posts in national schools, and the restriction of recruitment, for all practical purposes, to the students already in the preparatory colleges and in the training colleges. These factors will have considerable effect in the next few years". We have the position in the preparatory colleges that in the year 1940-41 there were 142 fewer boys than in the two years before and 160 fewer girls; so that there was a total of 302 fewer students in the preparatory colleges in 1940-41 than in 1938-39. There were 27 fewer men in the men's training colleges and about the same number of women in the women's training colleges.

I think it is a frightful mistake at the present time to allow our young people to leave school, and that it is just as big a mistake to close down our preparatory colleges, in that way reducing the number of teachers who will be in training during the next few years. If anything is going to stabilise our minds, and our social and economic future, it is the kind of young people that we will have coming into the economic life of the country. The raising of the school age in the larger urban districts would immediately absorb our unemployed teachers, whether men or women, and would make it necessary for the Minister to put our preparatory and training colleges working at their full strength again. So many people in various parts of the country are looking for employment that it will naturally be understood that it is not only in Dublin we have young people leaving school, waiting to be absorbed in one way or another. Through the preparatory colleges, the Minister has now the opportunity of stretching out his hand again to the promising young people in the country. During the present years of emergency, he could give them the chance of improving their education, and of fitting themselves to become teachers. All of them may not ultimately become primary school teachers. Some might become rural science teachers, and others teachers in urban vocational schools. At any rate, what we want is this, that the young people will be given a foundation of training to which we can add later, so as to enable them to give differential instruction of one kind or another.

The Minister, when speaking of vocational schools, referred to what he has been doing in order to encourage Irish studies and an Irish atmosphere in the vocational school world. He has put his finger on a thing which, I think, is really important at the present time. He has done it in such a way as to suggest that he realises its importance. The Minister points out that the attendance at classes in the rural continuation schools is, to a large extent, for the study of commercial subjects. He indicates, to my mind at any rate, that what we want in the continuation schools is a greater appreciation of the life of the country, a greater appreciation of the fact that it is in the country suitable employment can best be got for a large number of our people. The Minister speaks of the necessity for making the rural schools a success, of holding the people on the land, training them for the land and of interesting them in it. He says that:—

"an essential factor in the success of the rural schools is, therefore, the finding of teachers who not only possess the necessary qualifications in rural science and similar subjects and have a thorough knowledge of country conditions, but who possess also a considerable power of influencing the minds of the people, and have a real belief in a life on the land. Such men are not easy to get, and yet without them, the setting-up of a rural school, with rural science as a part of its curriculum, will not solve the problem".

Why should the Department, or any of us, stand idly by at the present time when we have boys and girls leaving the primary and secondary schools, many in the Irish-speaking districts, with nothing in front of them to do? Why should not that material be taken and put into our preparatory colleges now? Why not give those boys and girls a foundation, which can be added to afterwards, whether it be in rural science, domestic economy or any other kind of special instruction that our people may require, so that the people's minds may be turned towards the land, that they may be given the capacity to make the best out of the land, and taught how to keep themselves happy on the land?

At the present time we are all busy with A.R.P., first-aid, or some other type of work. We see the Government spending a large amount of money on quite a number of emergency plans. In view of all that, is it not an insane thing not to think of what we are going to do with all this important material that we have? I do not think we should simply leave the discussion of the Education Estimate, with the Minister putting that note in front of us and then throwing up his hands with regard to it. In my opinion, he should be made realise from every part of the House that this matter that he has directed attention to is of such importance that something must be done about it.

Since I would not like to obscure the importance of the point I have raised with regard to the urban districts, or the point I made to meet the Minister's reference to rural education, I do not think there is any other matter I wish to refer to. I put down the motion to refer back the Estimate because I am of the opinion that we should not depart from our discussion of the Estimate to-day by throwing up our hands in despair and saying: "Yes, the boys and girls of Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, Galway and elsewhere can leave our primary schools at 14 years of age in June or July next and go out on the streets with no prospect of getting work—back, as I have said, to homes where economic pressure is, perhaps, reducing the morale of their parents."

I think we should urge on the Minister to raise the school-leaving age in the urban areas, that we should make him realise that, in doing so, employment will be found for the unemployed teachers we have at the moment, and that, in order to meet the situation that will inevitably arise if children are kept longer at school, he should re-open the preparatory colleges, making up any deficiencies there may be in the training colleges. He should, I suggest, hold out a helping hand in that way to the brilliant boys and girls who will be leaving school within the next two months. Otherwise, they will find themselves unemployed or doing some unimportant work at a small wage, instead of being given the opportunity that, in their own interests and in the interests of the nation, they ought to have. We are the only people who can give them that opportunity. We have the material there and we should take steps now to prepare it. The additional training can be given to them afterwards to enable us to fill the great gap in the teaching ranks in the vocational schools to which the Minister has made reference. It is, I believe, of the greatest importance to have that gap filled if the money we are spending on continuation education in the rural areas is going to have any worth-while results. I wish to direct the special attention of the House to these matters. Apart altogether from the emergency, they are matters which require attention, but in the emergency they are some of the most important things to which our attention should be directed and to which our energies should be applied, because we will find ourselves in a very difficult situation in a comparatively small number of years if we do not see to it that we are thoroughly laying the solid foundations of our educational development here.

Mr. Hurley

I propose to deal with this Estimate in the manner which the Minister has outlined for us in his statement. He described primary education as the basic service underlying and supporting the others. Then he goes on to talk about the provision of school buildings. That is a very important item in the education Estimates. I am not quite sure whether it is proper to the education Estimates on account of the fact that other Departments of State come into this very important item, namely the Board of Works and the Department of Finance, as well as the local people. I think that is a rather cumbersome method of dealing with the provision of schools. Although the Minister says in his statement that the high number—300—of our schools which are classed as insanitary and unhygienic is a legacy of the stoppage of building during and immediately after the last Great War, I think a good deal of the difficulty lies in the fact that the method of dealing with the provision of school is so cumbersome. Anybody who has had any dealing with those Departments in trying to get schools built, even in very bad cases, will agree with what I say. The Department of Education, in the first place, has to make a preliminary survey. The matter is then referred to the Board of Works. Then it comes back to the Department of Education, who have to see to the necessary finance through the Minister for Finance, and then of course the local contribution comes in. I did suggest this before to the Minister—that I think this matter is so important that there should be some section, if not a Department, set up to deal with the provision of school buildings. There is no gainsaying the fact that sanitary and hygienic schools have a very big part to play in the health of the children and in the health of future generations in this country. Too long have we put up with those insanitary, unsightly hovels all over the countryside. Some provision has been made for the cities and towns, but in the country districts I think it is a fact that, if you pick out the worst building from the architectural point of view or the sanitary point of view, you can immediately classify that as the national school. The Minister in his statement does not give very much hope of an improvement in school building. He tells us that there are 300 insanitary and unhygienic schools throughout the country. I think it is the result of wishful thinking when he says that, in spite of the emergency, he is going to carry on school building. I should like to get from him the number of new schools which were built, say, in the past 12 months in country districts. I venture to say that the number is very small. It is true, of course, that there has been a certain amount of building in connection with the new built-up areas here in Dublin, but in the rural districts many children have to spend a good deal of their time in those insanitary hovels, and the consequences to their health must be very serious. I would ask the Minister to plan in some fashion that will meet this very important and serious problem of the provision of school buildings.

Following on that is the question of the heating and cleaning of schools. In many parts of rural Ireland the out-of-date archaic system of children being kept in after school to sweep and clean the building, and children having to come in in the mornings to light the fires, and go out and pick the necessary sticks, still goes on. Quite recently, in Cork county, the teachers' branch there went to the trouble of making a survey of the county, and the figures were very alarming, because in about 60 or 70 per cent. of the schools there was no provision whatever made for the heating or cleaning of the premises. There is a certain sum given for heating and cleaning, but again that depends on the local contribution. In many cases this local contribution is not forthcoming. Therefore, the amount which is given for heating and cleaning of those schools might as well not be given at all. The Minister knows that, and I am sure the officials of the Department know it, but still nothing is done about it. There was a rather interesting suggestion made at the teachers' congress—that the heating and cleaning of schools should be taken over by the local authority, in order to do away with this very serious blot on our system of education, and discontinue the practice of having the children doing this kind of very nasty work in the evening when they are exhausted after their day's study.

The question of the staffing of schools was referred to by Deputy Mulcahy. I should also like to refer to it, because during the year the Department has made a change with regard to the staffing of schools. Formerly, where a teacher left a school the retention average for that teacher was accepted as the appointing average for the incoming teacher. That has been changed during the past 12 months, and changed to the detriment of education in a particular district. For instance, very often a few points in the average mean the retention or employment of a teacher in the district, but, because a few points difference in the average will not allow the appointment of a teacher, the district has to suffer educationally for that very small difference. The Department and the Minister have worsened the conditions for the appointment of teachers, especially in rural districts. As the Minister told us in his statement, two-thirds of the schools of the country are in the rural districts, so this change hits the rural schools particularly badly. Deputy Mulcahy was concerned more about the city schools and about large classes. Well, that is definitely a very serious handicap on education in the cities and towns, because education cannot be managed on mass-production lines. Children have different temperaments and different capacities for education and, unless there is a good deal of individual attention by the teacher, then the teaching cannot be of the high standard that we should like to see.

Where there are big classes, it is not possible to give that individual attention, and that is a matter which must be tackled either now during the emergency, or when the emergency passes, because anybody who has any knowledge of schools in the cities knows the classes are unusually large, and that fact takes from the work of even the most efficient teacher.

The Minister made reference to the teaching of subjects through the medium of Irish and complained that, in the senior standards, attention is not given to this matter. This is a very controversial subject with various educationists, but I think that if the matter is closely examined, as it has been examined by the Irish National Teachers' Organisation for the last three or four years, it will be found that the consensus of opinion is that the teaching of subjects through Irish is not the best way of teaching. In other words, you may teach a little Irish, but you are not teaching the subject. I think the Minister would be well advised to consult the people who have first-hand knowledge of the effects of teaching through Irish and teaching Irish as a language. That contact has never been really established. The teachers and the people directly concerned, who know more about the subject than officials, have never been called into consultation, and it would, I think, be to the advantage of the progress of the language if the people directly concerned were called into consultation, and their opinions asked for and received by the Minister and his officials. I dealt at length with this subject last year and I do not want to go into it again, except to say that the information which the teachers' organisation has is at the disposal of the Minister for the asking.

There is no mention in the Minister's statement—and I should like to hear the Minister's opinion on it—as to the experiment being carried out in Cork in connection with the raising of the school-leaving age. It has been in operation for three or four years now, and, while I am not at all optimistic as to the results from the hours and the conditions in the scheme, there is, at the same time, a good deal of very valuable work being done. The unfortunate thing is that there are only 180 hours' compulsory attendance in the year. That means five hours a week and, in order to facilitate the employers of these children, the committee in Cork arranged to have the instruction given to each particular section on one day a week only. The group which comes in on Monday is not required to come in again until the following Monday. I do not think you can get the very best results under such an arrangement, and I should like to see the compulsory attendance extended. However, as I say, it is an experiment, and it would be interesting to get from the Minister the general opinion of his officials with regard to it.

Deputy Mulcahy pleaded for an extension of the school-leaving age, especially in respect of children in cities and towns, and I think that his plea is justifiable. Whatever may be said with regard to children in rural areas—we are told that their services are required on the farms and for work in the farm-houses—no such excuse can be put forward for city children. There is, of course, the fact that, very often, these children are employed to run messages, to do odd jobs like selling newspapers, and so on, in order to make a few shillings to augment the very often very meagre income of their parents, but that, I think, would not be an insuperable difficulty. There is a request, amounting almost to a demand, from all sections of the House for family allowances, and, if some such system were in operation, it would be no hardship for children to attend school, and especially those children who do not go to a secondary school or who are not apprenticed to a trade, until they reach the age of 16. I think all the arguments are in favour of such a development, and the Minister has already told us that his decision will, to a great extent, be based on the results of the experiment in cork.

Speaking of education generally, we hear a good deal of criticism nowadays with regard to the present state of education compared with the state of education in years gone by. I hear a good deal of this criticism, even from members of my own Party, but, without entering into the controversy at all, I should like to say that the school, or even the home, does not furnish the full quota of education nowadays. There are other mediums of education, such as the films, the radio, and the dance hall. Probably these are rather an antidote, if you like, to education. The child's mind is distracted, or contracted, if you like, by these methods of education, and it would be interesting to have a survey of the whole field of education at present. I do say, however, with all sincerity, that these educational mediums, the films, the dance halls, and the other places, are part and parcel of the education of the youth of this country to-day just as much as is the school.

Mr. Hickey

Unfortunately.

Mr. Hurley

Yes, unfortunately.

Before I conclude, I should like to pay a tribute to the officials of the Department of Education. They are certainly very courteous and very helpful, and I, as one Deputy who has had pretty close contact with them, must pay them that tribute. In any case that is brought forward they do their best to help, and I must say also that that applies right through all the officials of the Department of Education, both on the primary and secondary side and also on the technical side. It is not their fault if things are not all they should be. They are handicapped by rules and regulations and some of these rules and regulations are archaic and out of date. I put it very seriously to the Minister that now is the time to plan for what the educational system of this country is to be when this war is finished, because certainly it will have to be something different from what we have to-day. The world has changed so quickly—and will change more quickly when the war is over—that education must keep pace with the changes that are taking place and that will take place when peace comes to the world again.

Mr. Dillon

This Education Estimate is, beyond doubt, the most important Estimate that comes before this House. It is on the administration of this Department that the future of this nation depends, and it is noteworthy that every would-be dictator and demoraliser of a nation turns his attention exclusively to the children in the schools. That is true of Russia; that is true of the new Russia in Germany. Those who are concerned to enthrone materialism and to deny the existence of God, as the Nazis and Communists desire to do, make it quite clear that they are indifferent to what happens to the middle-aged or, indeed, to the mature, so long as they are given free rein to control the minds of the young. Now, it is on the Minister for Education in this country that the responsibility rests for the control of the minds of the young, and, God knows, in the last ten years he has nothing to be proud of, as his own rather melancholy statement here to-day reveals.

Now, I want to make this clear. I differ fundamentally from the self-styled utilitarians who say that it does not matter whether the Irish language survives or not. I consider our own language to be one of our most precious possessions, and I do not think that any exertion that we could be called upon to make would be excessive if it were proved to be essential to the preservation of Irish as a living language in this country. But because I believe that, I am not prepared to be led up every blind alley by every crank in this country who describes himself as a Gael. My experience of those who call themselves Gaels in this country is that 90 per cent. of them are ignorant clodhoppers, and that 10 per cent., who are men of goodwill trying to do valuable work for the nation, are discredited by the narrow-minded intolerant clodhoppers who would jump on the face of anybody who exercised his constitutional right to disagree with him on a matter of expediency. So far as the clodhoppers are concerned, I am telling them now that until they are beaten out of the language movement, the language movement will never make any progress in this country. The curse of the language movement in this country are the intolerant, narrow-minded egotists who imagine that anyone who differs with them in the smallest matter of detail must be a traitor and a West Briton. Would that I could open their eyes to the fact that if they would go and jump in the Liffey and drown themselves they would do the greatest service to the Irish language that they have ever done or could ever hope to do. Did you notice Deputy Hurley to-day? When he approached the subject of teaching through the medium of Irish, he was like a cat walking on hot bricks. He had to be extremely careful and very prudent in his approach. Why? Because he was afraid that the clodhoppers would be after him.

Mr. Hurley

I do not think they are so intolerant.

Mr. Dillon

You do not know them, Deputy, but I do. People undoubtedly feel strongly on the fundamental question as to whether Irish is to survive or not, and I can feel as strongly on that matter as anyone, although I do not deny to my neighbour the right to his own view, but you are up against the insolent attitude of the clodhoppers when it comes to teaching through the medium of Irish, and the crazy concept of the addle-headed crank who would assert that anyone who challenges the idea of teaching through the medium of Irish is an enemy of the Irish language. That is their policy. Not only do they assert that, but with insolent acrimony they would assert that you were indifferent to the fate of the Irish language, and that, through your opposition to teaching through the medium of Irish, you wanted it to die.

I say this, and I am convinced of it, that the crazy policy of addressing infant children, the vernacular of whose home is English, exclusively in the Irish language when they go to school, has done more to injure the Irish language in the last ten years than the British Government were able to do in the previous 100, because it has made many a man, many a woman, and many a child in this country hate the very name of Irish. They have come to regard it as an instrument of torture: the parents, an instrument of torture for their children; the children an instrument of torture on themselves, and the teachers—the vast majority of them—regard it as, not teaching through the medium of Irish, but trying to teach through the medium of Irish. But the clodhoppers are in the ascendant, because the clodhoppers shout the loudest and are the most aggressive.

Well, the clodhoppers notwithstanding, I say that teaching through the medium of Irish, as at present practised, is a certain method of ultimately destroying all hope of reviving Irish as the spoken language in this country. I do not deny the clodhoppers' right to their point of view; they are quite entitled to hold their point of view; they are quite entitled temperately to argue for their system of education. It is not because they hold that point of view that I quarrel with them. It is because they deny me the right to hold my view that I quarrel with them. When we can come down from the pinnacle of acrimonious controversy on this subject and admit to one man the right to advocate teaching "through the medium" and to another the right of teaching Irish as any other language is taught in school, then we have a hope of getting somewhere. If we are prepared to come down to that level of reasonable argument I pledge myself, if this matter is submitted to a commission of competent educationists and examined by them, that I will do all in my power to help in the successful prosecution of whatever programme that independent commission of educationists recommends to the Oireachtas after they have heard all sides of the question and after they have made such inquiries as they think expedient in order to arrive at a reasonable and constructive series of conclusions.

I think the greatest possible injury that we can do the language movement is to make it the subject of acrimonious discussion. What is the surest way to avoid that in the future? The surest way is to find some arbitrament between the various persons concerned to preserve the language, so that there can emerge an agreed policy for an important task. There may have been some elements in this House who took certain views on defence, and other elements that took a different view, but when the crisis came upon us it became manifest to us all that if defence were to be effectively done it must be taken out of the arena of acute controversy and, though none of us could hope to get 100 per cent. of what we thought was the best way of doing the job, we were all prepared to agree that if a selection from amongst us went into conference we would all jointly support the decisions come to by them. That was a political problem and we had our own tactical experts to advise us from the Army and the Civil Service. Here is a problem which is not primarily a political problem—it is more an educational problem.

The Minister tells us that the progress in infant training is unsatisfactory, and in the classes above third class the children and the teachers are forgetting their Irish. He says that in the secondary schools things are more satisfactory. Generally, the picture painted after 15 years of teaching "through the medium" does not reflect anything very rosy. Time is running out. If you get the census returns, you will find that Irish is dying in the Fior-Ghaeltacht, and, should Irish perish in the Fior-Ghaeltacht before it has become the universal language of the Breac-Ghaeltacht, and before it is firmly rooted in the Gaeltacht, the fight is lost. If Irish should ever perish in this country as the living language— and it is that in the Fior-Ghaeltacht at the present time—then the battle is lost. I want the battle won before the language is allowed to die in the Fior-Ghaeltacht and, if we can get the language firmly rooted in the Gaeltacht and the Breac-Ghaeltacht, the language will never die in the Fior-Ghaeltacht.

I should like the Minister, in consultation with us all, to choose a commission of educationists which will command general confidence. I do not mean that every member of that commission must be one of my choosing. All I stipulate is that all the members of it will not be of the Minister's choosing. I suggest that there should be a consultation in order to get men who will enjoy the confidence of all of us and they should be invited to review the whole field of education in this country. Having done that at their leisure, with perfectly open minds, fixed with the knowledge that the bulk of Deputies and the bulk of our people want the Irish language preserved, I think we would all be prepared to bind ourselves to whatever their recommendation might prove to be. We would stake our last chance of saving the language upon them. Having taken the best advice we could obtain, we would go all out to give effect to that advice so as to save the language.

I believe we could do it. If we fail, at least we will know that our failure arose from no acrimonious quarrel thrust upon us by the narrow-minded clodhopper. We should be prepared to approach the matter as reasonable men, with open minds, recognising there was honest and legitimate difference of opinion amongst us. We should ask that competent commission to review all aspects of the problem; we should bind ourselves to take their plan as our plan of campaign and we should prosecute it with the maximum vigour at our disposal.

Surely the preservation of our language is something upon which we could secure common effort in this House? I do not believe there is a Deputy prepared to say: "I wish to God the language were dead." Surely we are not going to let it die under our eyes? Surely we can find some common method of approach? Surely we can take the language question out of the arena of politics, just as effectively as we took defence?

To me the defence of the sovereignty of this country is of supreme importance. I do not think I put the language before the independence of this country, but I put the language right beside it. I think it would be almost as great a tragedy to see the language go down as to see this country reconquered. We have taken defence and the independence of Ireland out of the arena of controversial politics. Let us do the same with the language. If we do, even if it fails to save it, at least we will short-circuit the clodhoppers; at least we will banish out of our life the narrow-minded, intolerant approach to a vital question which claims all the right for one side and denies any virtue or justice to the other. Let us show, whether we lose or win in this fight, that at least we can go into it in the right way, showing ourselves capable of co-operation in so high a purpose.

I could describe, if I wanted, what appear to me to be the grosser absurdities of teaching through the medium of Irish in the primary schools, but I do not propose to do that now. I would much sooner if all that question were relegated to such a commission as I have suggested, and I am not without hope, from what the Minister said in his statement, that something of that kind may be in his mind. But I want to say that there are certain things which it seems to me our young people are entitled to expect from education; there is what a child and its parents expect that it will get in the primary schools. I suggest that the first thing it is entitled to get there is the three R.'s. I am not saying that that is all it is entitled to get, but that it ought to have an assurance that when it leaves the seventh class it can read, write and add.

Do I do the teachers or the children an injustice when I say that the standard of writing coming from the primary schools at present reflects credit on nobody? It is only an odd child of 15 or 16 who takes up a job who can write a clerkly hand, and when I say a clerkly hand, I mean a decipherable hand. It is odd that I seem to detect an atmosphere here in which it is suggested that it is almost despicable to expect people to write a legible hand. It is almost a hall-mark of erudition on the part of a 15-year old child to write like a drunken spider who has fallen into an inkpot. That may be becoming in a senior statesman who, as he grows more distinguished, makes his signature become more illegible, but in a 15-year old child it is not. He ought, at least, to be able to write clearly. If, in the exercise of his God-given free will, he wants to write indistinctly, under the Constitution he has a perfect right to do so, but he ought to be given the ability to write clearly if he wants to, and he is not being given that.

Mr. O'Rourke

You are wrong.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy O'Rourke sits here like a dummy month after month. Can he not get up when I am finished and make a speech if he wants to? He should sit down and conduct himself.

Mr. O'Rourke

I have seen your writing.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy O'Rourke has not spoken in this House for six months. If he wants to make a speech afterwards, he can make it, but in the meantime he should conduct himself as a national teacher ought to conduct himself and not like an irresponsible child. I say that children coming from the national schools ought to be able to write legibly. I am not saying that no child coming from a national school can write legibly; but I am saying that a very large number are allowed to leave the schools without having been taught to write, in the accepted sense of that term.

Now I come to reading. The vast majority of the children coming from the primary schools can spell out a simple piece if they are given time to do so, and in the course of the next five or ten years, by a laboured perusal of the daily, weekly, or Sunday papers, they acquire a certain facility in reading simple literature. But, when they start out in whatever modest employment they are at first introduced to, in my judgment a great many of them are materially handicapped by the difficulty that, when they read, they read with no degree of fluency, and they spell with no degree of fluency. I see poor children trotting off to the vocational school to learn shorthand and typewriting, but they are quite unable to spell a word of two syllables. They may be able to make the shorthand symbols for them, but when it comes to translating the shorthand symbols into spelling, it is not the difficulty of knowing what the symbols represent that blocks them, but their complete incapacity to spell the words which they know the symbols are meant to invoke.

I will deal with the business of commercial training in the vocational schools later but, to tell the truth, I think it is largely a waste of time. I think it is unfair that the children of the poor should be denied that which I was given because my father was a little better off, more especially when there is ample provision made to give them the same facility in reading and writing that I got. There is no reason why any child should leave the seventh standard any worse equipped to read and write than I was when I left the secondary school to which I went. I am talking purely of reading and writing and I regard these as fundamental.

Now I come to arithmetic. I do not know what procedure is pursued in teaching arithmetic in the primary schools. The Minister says in his statement that it is not very satisfactory. All I can tell you is that the results are not very satisfactory. Children are not able to add, they are not able to multiply, to subtract, or divide with any degree of accuracy. I do not mean to say that if you ask the average child coming out of school how many times two goes into ten he would be unable to answer; of course he will tell you five times; but there is no facility, no familiarity with it. The arithmetical instruction does not seem to be firmly ground into them. There is not the instinctive knowledge of elementary mathematics which any child must have if it is to earn a living in this world. Children coming out of school remind me of an old maid trying to play contract bridge and stopping in the middle of a hand to count the pips on the seven of hearts. Most of us are able, the moment we look at a card, to know its value. That is the kind of knowledge of arithmetic and simple mathematics we expect from primary school children; not every time they are confronted with a simple mathematical problem to have to ponder and reflect and probably take a bit of paper and do it on paper under the rose.

I am very conscious of the real difficulties of teaching. The teaching profession is one which requires a high degree of skill and ability. I am very well aware that a very great number of teachers are equal to their task; but I am suggesting that the programme and the methods imposed on the teachers are producing the result that the work is not being done. There is not the least use in people getting vexed about this and denying it with anger, because, if you ask the parents of children through the country, they will tell you that it is true, but, if they are challenged to come out in public and substantiate their words, in common with a deplorably large section of our people they have not got the moral courage to do so. They do not want to quarrel with the teacher. They will say to you quite plainly: "Do you expect me to go out and start a row with master so-and-so? My life would not be worth living if I did." So the thing goes on. The teachers, very largely, seem to have a fear of the inspectors and the Department. I have known teachers to say to me that they believe that teaching through the medium of Irish or some other branch of the programme is highly unsatisfactory.

When I said to them: "Why don't you tell the inspectors, and why don't you write to the Minister for Education and tell him that for his own information?" they said to me: "You could not do that; they would be after you if you did that kind of thing." I remember speaking once to a man who said that he had been on a deputation when the Taoiseach was Minister for Education. The deputation went up full of purpose to give the Minister their minds, but when the Taoiseach met them—those of us who are privileged to have his acquaintance will recognise the incident—after bidding them a hearty welcome, he addressed them for three-quarters of an hour at the end of which they all said "yes", and left the room. Those of us who have been privileged to work with the Taoiseach pretty frequently will recognise that incident only too well. He is a very charming man, a man with a considerable personality. After he had addressed them for three-quarters of an hour, they simply said "yes", and went home with no very high hopes. That is what happened. They simply did not want to be unpleasant, or to start saying things that would obviously upset the Taoiseach. They probably regretted that he had been so charming, and were sorry that he did not quarrel with them, so that they might be able to speak their minds.

I am hoping that the Minister for Education will set up a commission which will inspire all the teachers in the country with confidence that it is not as "yesmen" they are invited to Dublin, but as men with ideas, whether these ideas be good or bad, ideas which can be winnowed out by experienced educationists, and with the assurance that whether their ideas are found to be useful or useless, the fact that they have offered them will be appreciated, and the fact that they have the moral courage and intelligence to think of something new will be regarded as testimony of their fitness to teach the children of this country.

I see that the Minister for Education, in his statement, refers to the fact that the practice of holding final examinations has fallen away in the ordinary primary schools, that he hopes it will be voluntarily revived, and that, if it is not, he is in favour of reviving it compulsorily. The sooner he does that the better. There may be teachers in this country who are stumbling along in the belief that they are doing "swell". They will get the surprise of their lives when the pupils they are so proud of are subjected to the acid test of an examination. The sooner that test is applied the better it will be for the children, for the teachers of the country and for the generations that are yet to come.

Deputy Hurley referred to the educational influence of the cinemas. I think that the new situation we have developing in this country, in this connection, is vitally important. You have a miscellaneous collection of travelling shows, the purpose of which is to hire whatever films they can get at a competitve price: whether wild-west films. extravagant romances, or expositions of questionable Hollywood morals, prudently cut by the Irish censor. But that is all the people of rural Ireland ever see. Here is one of the most powerful educational instruments that could conceivably be placed in the hands of man. Many of us here have read, in our general reading, of the doings of Pasteur and of Ehrlich. Had any of us as clear an idea of what those men actually worked on after our general reading as we had when we came out of the cinema after seeing a film on the work of Pasteur or of Ehrlich? I suppose I have read at least three lives of Pasteur. I interested myself for years in the work he did. In the picture you were shown the bearded, struggling figure and the incident of the sheep getting up after their anthrax inoculation. All that lives for ever—the drama of the various steps that led up to the great discovery with which Pasteur's name is associated. Few of us are as familiar with the work that Ehrlich did. From the picture one got an idea of the romantic search that went on for the dyes for staining, and of Ehrlich's ultimate discovery, with its huge potentialities.

If pictures can make that deep impression on our minds, experienced men though we be, why do we ignore the fact that they are capable of making a far deeper impression on young minds which have not become cluttered by as much useless information as we have picked up on our way through life? If that be true, would we in this State allow people to run schools wherever they chose to set them up? Would we allow people to put up a notice to say: "Children will be taught nothing here that they do not want to learn. Come in if you want nothing but to see wild-west pictures or the "Scarlet Woman of Santa Fé"? Would we not say that, if the Minister for Education permitted that, he was daft? But that is what the cinema is doing in rural Ireland.

The films that are being taken through rural Ireland are of the type every child wants—films featuring the maximum incidents of murder and the nearest approach to extravagant romance that the censor will permit to be shown. Despite what the pure-minded Gaels may say, that pretty well describes what 90 per cent. of us would have desired at the age of 12 years if we had been fed on nothing else. Is it extravagant to suggest that the cinema should be availed of by the Department of Education throughout the country, either by itinerant cinema shows, which would be given in the school houses, or by some body which would provide in poor districts that cannot afford a cinema of their own, a decent cinema where decent films would be shown? We often talk about the drift from the land. Why are the people drifting from the land? They are largely drifting from the land because they are bored to death. They want the amenities of city life. One of the most attractive amenities of city life is the cinema, and there I speak with feeling, because I would go to the cinema every night of my life if I were able to do so. I love it, and I make no apology to anybody for so loving it. There is no relaxation which I find more congenial than the cinema. There are few dramatic entertainments which, in my judgment, compare with a first-class talking-movie picture. There are thousands of people in this country who feel as I do. Are we going to leave that desire for entertainment, that potentiality for education or for demoralisation, in the hands of any individual who wishes to carry it on for no other purpose than the purpose of profit? If we do, we are daft. If we do not, if we are resolved to get some control of it ourselves, then we ought to go about it as soon as we can. The expense might not prove to be serious at all, because a service of that kind could very rapidly become self-supporting. If it pays some fellow to go around with the broken down crocks of films at present displayed in rural Ireland, there is no reason why the Department of Education or some body set up with their approval—possibly a voluntary body, an extra-Civil Service body altogether—should not be able to do the same thing without imposing any serious charge on the Exchequer. One must not depart from that without noting the danger of such a service being used for political propaganda purposes, as it has been used in some other countries. That is a danger which could be provided against. I do not think it is beyond the ingenuity of a democratic State to avoid that, if it has proved within the capacity of a totalitarian State to do the opposite thing.

Deputy Hurley congratulates the Minister on the radio schools' programmes. If he congratulates him on that, his motto certainly is not per ardua ad astra. He sets a very modest standard of perfection. I suppose it is better to have some school programmes than no school programmes, but I think there is very wide scope for improvement in them both as to material and as to the imagination with which it is presented. Can you imagine Palm Olive-Peat in the United States of America paying for the broadcasting of the rural schools’ programme that is provided by Radio Eireann? Can you imagine Heinz Baked Beans’ advertising manager being content with the standard of education provided for the children here in the radio schools’ hour? If those people would not be content with that, would you ask yourselves why? Because they would say: “You cannot get the children to listen to it, and we want to get the children to listen so that we can boom in their ears: ‘Eat Heinz Baked Beans’ or ‘Wash your faces with Palm Olive Soap’. The sole standard by which we judge a programme is whether we can make people listen to it, so that we can shoot in the soap, or the beans, or whatever else it is, in the middle of the programme.” The poor children have to listen to the schools’ programme whether they like it or not, but the programme that is going to do good is the programme to which the children want to listen, the programme which holds their attention and makes an impression on their minds. Does any Deputy in this House seriously believe that the Radio Eireann programme for schools cannot be improved, applying that standard to it? If he does, in my view he is far too complacent.

I want to ask the House this: Suppose two children go in for an examination in geography in a secondary school in this country, and the chance of being first in their school depends on the result of the geography examination. They have scored equal marks in every other subject, and then we come to geography. John scores a mark of 90 per cent. in his geography. He writes his paper out neatly and cleanly in English, the language through which he learned the subject, and gets nine out of ten questions right. William comes along afterwards and he answers his paper "through the medium", writing his paper in Irish, writing his paper in ungrammatical Irish, writing his paper in Irish to decipher the meaning of which is a minor problem in itself. Having extracted the meaning out of William's paper, having decided, on reading the Irish which he has written down, that this is what he meant to say, William gets 85 per cent. Do you think it is fair that William should get first and that John should be put in second place? That is what happens. Does anybody deny that?

Mr. O'Rourke

If we saw the two papers, of course, we would not deny it then, but it is all in the Deputy's imagination.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy does not deny that there is a bonus given for the fact of answering in Irish?

Mr. O'Rourke

If the two papers were as described, that is another matter.

Mr. Dillon

The fact is that there is a bonus given simply for answering through the medium of Irish. That system of giving such a bonus not for the merit of the answers to the questions put, but for the medium employed in answering the questions, is defended by those who advocate it on the ground that the Irish in itself imposes a test, and that its use is entitled to a reward over and above that given to the child who used the vernacular of his home in answering the paper. Deny it who may, the fact is that the Irish employed in 90 per cent. of such papers requires an experienced man to decipher it. Now, of course, I am speaking of schools outside the Gaeltacht. In the Gaeltacht, we are all agreed, the children should receive their instruction through their ordinary vernacular. In talking of schools, I am excluding those where the vernacular in the homes of the children is Irish. There are such homes in Dublin, where the children are brought up to Irish, and it is natural that they should get their instruction through Irish. I am speaking of the children of parents who ordinarily talk English to them, and the vernacular of whose homes is English. I say that the Irish employed in answering those questions is frequently a childish and ungrammatical attempt at Irish composition, which, were the criterion composition, would be awarded a mark of perhaps of 50 per cent. to 55 per cent. Because that highly imperfect medium is employed, the child whose knowledge is superior in the subject of the examination is relegated to second place. I say that such a system is grotesque, unjust, and a shameful introduction for any child to abstract concepts of justice which may affect his life thereafter. Everybody knows that. There is not more than 1 per cent. of the people of this country who are prepared to defend that system on its merits, but the moment you discuss it with anybody he starts peering over his shoulder to see whether anybody is listening to him. If he thinks there is, he is up in arms to defend the system; if he thinks he is talking on the quiet, he says: "Sure, everybody knows it is a cod, but what can you do about it? You dare not speak against it or they will eat you alive."

I have known a case in which an examiner examined the papers of an "A" school, that is, a school taught exclusively through the medium of Irish and the papers in which are answered exclusively through the medium of Irish, and having marked the papers of all those pupils and returned them to the Department, the papers were returned to her because, as she was told, she had failed too many. This was the instruction: "You must add on the percentage of marks all through these papers, so as to pass a higher percentage of the pupils you have examined." She replied, very properly: "I shall do nothing of the kind. If you want to send me a communication altering the standard on which I am to mark the papers, I will re-examine all the papers, and, on the lower standard fixed by you, give a different mark, but I marked those papers on the agreed standard of the Board of Examiners before we were sent out to examine. This is the honest result. If you want a dishonest result to prove that the all-Irish school has done better than, in fact, it has done, I am prepared to give it to you, if you will lay down the dishonest standard. I, however, am not going to do it." And they did lay down the dishonest standard and they did tell her to take back the papers, re-mark them, and pass a higher percentage of the pupils. That was done, and the results were quoted throughout this country as proof of the fact that the standard of education was higher in the "A" schools than in the others. There is nobody who knows the facts can deny the story as I have told it to the House, but proof of it you will never get, because everybody concerned with the transaction is terrified lest the other person in it would rob him of his livelihood, if he testified to the facts as I have recounted them. A system which begets scandals of that kind stands self-condemned and the sooner it is subjected to review, the better it will be for everybody.

I note with regret the decline of Latin and Greek in our secondary schools. I have travelled a good deal through the world in my day and my experience is that the man who has had a classical education is to be recognised wherever you meet him. I had not; I learned Latin, but I never learned Greek, and I never ceased to regret it. The utilitarian school take the view that Latin and Greek ought to be allowed to die, "because", they say, "what can you make out of it"? I want to say quite deliberately that, after I left fourth book, I never learned anything that was of any material use to me. There is not a single item of education I acquired in a secondary school that was of the slightest material use to me thereafter, but, nevertheless, I fully recognise that the whole bent of whatever education I have was fixed in that secondary school and, to my way of thinking, very happily fixed. I think it would have been more happily fixed if it had provided me with the fundamentals of Greek, and, while I recognise that a great many children going to the secondary schools in this country may be so circumstanced that they cannot permit themselves the luxury of Latin and Greek, I should like not only to see these subjects placed within their reach, but those who could afford it encouraged to acquire that more liberal type of education in their formative years, so that, later on, if they have the opportunity to return to its more exhaustive study, they will be privileged to do so and will not be denied, as I am denied, the elementary knowledge of a language which is almost necessary to its study, if one proposes to embark upon it in middle age.

Every year, we have the hardy annual of the cleaning and heating of schools, and, in this connection again, everybody walks about like a cat on hot bricks, apparently because it is feared that you will vex the parish priests in the country if you suggest that they are not spending enough money on cleaning and heating schools. I think parish priests are a reasonable body of men, and, if you speak your mind plump and plain, there is no reason to be unduly apprehensive about what they will do to you. I hear many people talking about children having to bring sods of turf to school every morning as some kind of awful slavery. I do not think it is any kind of awful slavery at all. All the time I was at school, I never had a fire, if I did not go out to get the wood myself, and it never did me any harm. If I did not want to go out and get the wood, I could sit in the cold and put on my overcoat. I was supposed to be going to one of the best secondary schools in the country and it did me all the good in the world. I appreciated a fire twice as much when I got it, and it taught me to get it myself, without expecting people to prance around waiting on me hand and foot. There was no obligation about it. If you wanted to sit in the cold, you could sit in the cold, and, if you wanted a fire, you could have a fire. It was left to yourself, and was it not a good thing? There is a spirit growing up in this country in which everybody is prepared to tell everybody else what he ought to do. You will hear of people holding meetings of parish councils urging everybody else to go out to the bog and cut turf in the great national effort, when the members of the parish council themselves could very well buy sleans, and go out and cut turf themselves. If they did so, it would do much more than the meeting or the demonstration. I think it would be much better for many of the children going to the primary schools, if, instead of getting haughty with the charwoman and saying: "Light the fire, Mary," they were told: "Go out and bring back whatever firing you want, if you want a fire," and if the teacher thinks they ought to have a fire, to say to them: "Bring in a sod of turf in the morning and if you do not, you will be sent home for it."

When it comes to sweeping a school who ever died as a result of sweeping a school? When they grow up and get married, will they not have to sweep out their own kitchens? How many men in this House who are married have not had to sweep their own kitchens from time to time? How many amongst us are there who have not lent a hand in doing domestic chores from time to time in our own houses? What humiliation is it on a little girl to have to brush and sweep a school? Everybody begins to become delicate about it and to look around. Nobody suggests that children should go out and clean the privies. The reason I would not let them clean the privies is that that is a public health problem, which requires to be done by an intelligent person who has been shown the correct method of doing it in order to preserve the public health and to prevent the spread of typhoid and other diseases connected with the disposal of sewage.

I do not think anybody would make any difficulty about providing for a service of that kind, where it is necessary, but there ought to be a distinction drawn between what is a real public health problem and what is a "cod" problem, like people telling me that children get tuberculosis from the dust in sweeping out a school. If they get it from sweeping out a school, they will die before they grow up in many of the houses in the country, including my own.

Mr. Hickey

The Minister for Justice says it is a proper thing for them to sweep the schools.

Mr. Dillon

Mr. Derrig

We are discussing all the Votes together.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister travelled pretty far; he dealt with singing and vocational education.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

All the Votes are being discussed together, including Advanced Studies.

Mr. Dillon

In the past we might look to wealthy patrons for the endowment of research. In great capitalist countries like America the new plutocracy have put up vast sums for research and for art, but in a country such as ours, where the old aristocracy have been put out and where the probability of any plutocracy developing is remote, art must die if no alternative source of endowment is made available. Nothing is so difficult than for a State to endow art. It is interesting, and I do not think edifying, that one of the economies we effected in this country recently in the emergency was a reduction in the grant for the purchase and repair of pictures in the National Gallery from £2,000 to £1,000. If the Government do not provide the National Gallery with money wherewith to purchase pictures for the national collection, then we will not have any national collection.

I never could understand why county council scholarships should be restricted in their number. I would far sooner see a system in which you had a qualifying rather than a competitive examination for county council scholarships. Suppose there are in a given year 25 children who, by their ability, show themselves capable of benefiting by a county council scholarship, and there are only 18 made available, why should seven be turned down when, in the next year, there are only 15 of equal brilliance and, in order to fill up the roster, three of inferior qualifications are added to the list? If children are capable of deriving advantage from education, surely it is money well spent to give them the facilities of doing so.

Is it not a horrid thing to imagine a child being born into this world, having within him the potentialities of the ablest man in this country, but being prevented from ever developing those potentialities to the full because his father was too poor to give him schooling? In the Middle Ages such a one would find schooling in the abbeys; the monks would give him schooling; but in our enlightened days such a one may take to the plough or to the loy. There is many a good man working the loy, but the tragedy is that the qualities which make a man a good man to work the loy are not the qualities which make him a good man at books and learning, and thus we condemn the round peg to wreck his life in a square hole because we say there should be competition amongst the poor for education, while the rich acquire it as a God-given right. I do not believe anybody here accepts that doctrine, but that is what is happening in practice.

Why should there be competition for education amongst the poor any more than there should be competition amongst the thirsty for water? Would it not be absurd if it were suggested that while a house which could pay high rates would receive unlimited water, a labourer's cottage would be allowed only two quarts a day? Why should the children of a comfortable house receive unlimited educational opportunity while the resident of a labourer's cottage receives only so much as the available county council scholarships can provide? If the State will not provide that, there is nobody else in the country who can. Nobody else in the country has means to see a child through the entire course of his education; nobody can afford it. I put it to the Minister that he should fill the gap.

I suggest to him that perhaps one of the most important branches of knowledge known to the mind of man is the research for truth—research, whatever branch of science it may belong to. I know that in the Institute for Advanced Studies we have established Chairs for scientists of distinction where they can expound the truth, but I also know that many research students of brilliance in this country would be quite unable to pursue their studies were it not for the grants coming from such outstanding individual philanthropists as Rockefeller and Carnegie. There would be scope for much valuable work if larger appropriations were made available from the Minister's Department for the endowment of the research institutes we have, so that through those channels opportunities might be distributed to students who, given the means, might reflect great credit on the erudition of this country.

I like the Institute for Advanced Studies. I like it especially as the cornerstone of Irish learning. I said when that Bill was going through here that I fervently hoped it would become the arena in which Irish scholars would occupy themselves pursuing knowledge and not one another. I pointed out that the humblest citizen of this State, with the lowest claims to scholarship, had the right to expect that if every facility were laid before scholars and no restriction of any kind put upon them, their time would be devoted to research and not to acrimonious controversy between themselves. I am going to say no more on this occasion about the Institute for Advanced Studies than to recall that pious hope, but I think it fair to say this, that sooner or later the modest citizens who provided the wherewithal to establish that institute will have the right to inquire what undisturbed progress in scholarship is going on behind its portals and to secure the assurance that it is scholarship and not barren controversy that occupies the time of the members of that foundation.

Eamonn O Ciosáin

Ba dhóigh le duine ar an geaint a dhein an Teachta Ó Diolúin gur sclábhuithe sinn go léir maidir le ceist na Gaedhilge. do bhí sé ag iarraidh a chur ina luighe orainn gur díobháil don Ghaedhilge na habhair scoile a bheith á múineadh tré Ghaedhilge sna bun-scoileanna. Cloisimíd an gearán céanna uaidh agus o dhaoine eile gach uile bhliain le linn do Mheastachán Roinn an Oideachais a bheith fé bhráid na Dála. Ach cad é an cruthúnas a gheibhimíd o na daoine sin. Do réir mar a thuigeas o chaint an Taoisigh anuiridh bhí 95% de sna múinteóirí náisiúnta éifeachtach agus bhí an tríú cuid aca san árd-éifeachtach. Más mar sin atá an scéal, agus ní mór an t-atharú a bheadh tagtha ar an scéal ó shoin, níl aon chúis ghearáin againn i dtaobh stáid na Gaedhilge sna scoileanna ná stáid an oideachais ar fad, mar is do réir mar a bhíonn na hoidí a bhíonn na scoláirí, agus an té adeireann ná fuil na scoláirí ar foghnamh is ionann san is a rá ná fuil na múinteoirí ar foghnamh agus maidir le feabhas nó donacht na múinteoirí do réir mar a bheadh, siad na cigirí is mó eolas agus níor chualamar aon ghearán uatha san i dtaobh aineolais na scóláirí bun-scoile ag fágaint na scoile sin dóibh.

Dhein an Teachta Ó Diolúin tagairt do choimisiún a chur ar bun chun ceist seo na Gaedhilge a chíoradh i gceart. Ní mór an cur-i-gcoinnibh an choimisiúin sin a bheadh agam-sa, ach ní fheadar an ndéanfadh sé aon mhaitheas. Níl fhios agam cé hiad na daoine a cuirfí ar an gcoimisiún san go mbeadh eolas ar an gceist sin aca. B'fhéidir go gcuirfí roinnt cigirí agus roinnt múinteoirí ar an gcoimisiún san agus daoine eile nach iad, ach ná fuil tuairim na gcigirí agus tuairim na múinteoirí le fáil againn cheana? Maidir le stáid an bhun-oideachais sa tír seo fé láthair agus an locht atá le fáil ag dream áirithe air, ba mhaith liom dá bhféadfadh an tAire agus a Roinn comparáid a dhéanamh idir oideachas na linne seo agus an t-oideachas a bhí ann fiche bliain o shoin sar ar cuireadh an Ghaedhilge ar chlár na scol go hoifigiúil. Isé an fáth go ndeirim é sin ná na daoine a dheineann amach ná fuil oideachas an lae indiu chó héifeachtach agus ba cheart dó, is geall le hasachán ar an nGaedhilge é.

Níl aon amhras ná go bhfuil an Ghaedhilge ag dul ar aghaidh go maith sna bun-scoileanna, ach is tar éis fágaint na scoile do sna leanbhaí a deintear an díobháil. Nuair a théigheann siad amach sa saol cailleann siad an Ghaedhilge d'fhoghluimeadar ar scoil agus go dtí go ndéanfar an rud san a leigheas, go dtí go ndeiseofar an briseadh atá sa slabhradh, ní bheidh an rath ar an nGaedhilge mar is dual di. Sin é an príomh-rud. Do mheasamar nuair a cuireadh an tAcht Gairme Beatha i bhfeidhm deich mbliana o shoin go mb'féidir go ndéanfaí rud éigin chun oideachas leanúna a chur ar bun agus san am chéanna go gcuirfí an Ghaedhilge ar a bonnaibh ach bhí breall orainn ina thaobh san. Ní fheicim cad é an deifríocht atá idir na scoileanna san agus na ceárd-scoileanna. Is iomdha duine gur chuireas an cheist air ach ní bhfuaireas aon fhreagra sásúil.

Is maith an rud gur cuireadh cúrsa ar bun do roinnt daoine a raghaidh amach ag múineadh na Gaedhilge agus ag timthireacht ar a son, ach ní mór le rá fiche duine. B'fhéidir ná fuil ann ach triail. Tá súil agam gur go dtí na condaethe a bhfuil rian an Ghaedhealachais ionta fós a cuirfear iad. Ba cheart a cur d'fhiachaibh ar na timthirí sin baint a bheith aca le feiseanna agus féilí mar iad, mar tá spreagadh den tsórt san ag teastáil o na daoine fé láthair.

Mr. Corish

I look upon this Estimate as the most important one which comes before the Dáil. It provides the money required to enable education to be imparted to the children of the country to prepare them for the battle of life. I think it can be said with a great deal of truth that there is more controversy outside this House upon this subject of education than on perhaps anything else. I refer, of course, to normal times. During the course of the discussion, Deputy Dillon has suggested that there should be an independent commission set up to deal with the whole matter of education in this country. I think there is a lot to be said for that, because there are a good deal of criticisms levelled at the system of education here which perhaps one might agree with. I do know that the Minister has from time to time been offered the co-operation of the national school teachers of this country. I think he ought to take advantage of that co-operation which has been repeatedly offered to him, because there is no body of people in this country more familiar with the difficulties in the way of imparting proper education. They do not deal with education, as far as I know, from a purely professional point of view. They deal with it to a great extent from what might be described as the humanitarian point of view. They take a deep interest in their work. It is monotonous work, and we all know the difficulties which they have to encounter in the various classes which they teach. I do think that the Minister ought to consult the Irish National Teachers' Organisation a great deal more than he does. I think he ought to bring them into consultation with him regularly, and be guided by the suggestions which they make from time to time.

The Minister, in his statement, refers to the question of new schools, especially in the rural areas all over the country. He says that during recent years the Government have been endeavouring to make up the arrears in school building. Later on, he says that it is not easy to do that at the moment. He says that there are still over 300 national schools which are scheduled as insanitary, and that in spite of the emergency they will have to proceed with the building of new schools to replace them. Deputy Hurley has referred at great length to the insanitary state of the schools in various parts of the country, and I thoroughly agree with his remarks. It is very hard to get the children to acquire proper education when their environment is what we know it to be in various parts of the country. We know that there are very many insanitary schools.

We know that the schools are not kept as clean as they should be kept, and that it is impossible to keep some of them clean no matter what the teachers, combined with the pupils, strive to do. I have in mind various schools in my own constituency. There is one in particular about which I have questioned the Minister on various occasions. I refer to a national school in Wexford town which is run by the Sisters of Mercy. It is in a very congested area; it is very badly lighted, and has been reported on by at least five different doctors as being insanitary and absolutely unfit for occupation. The insanitary state of that school has been repeatedly brought to the notice of the county health board in Wexford and the Wexford Corporation who are the direct sanitary authority. I would ask the Minister to give that case special consideration this year. I also know that the plans have been approved by his Department and approved by the Board of Works, and I think it is well known in the Department that a new school is very badly needed in this particular place. I am sure the Minister is being curtailed in so far as money for building schools is concerned, but I would suggest to him that he should make a fair allocation to the different counties all over the country.

Both Deputy Dillon and Deputy Hurley referred to the influence of the radio. Deputy Hurley said that a certain measure of thanks was due to the Minister for the school programmes that were sent over the radio between 1 O'clock and 2 O'clock or between 2 O'clock and 3 O'clock each day. I have listened-in to some of those programmes on various occasions, and I think they are quite good. I do not think very much improvement can be made in them. They deal with historical facts, and various matters with which the child should be made familiar early in his or her life. But there is another influence which the radio has on children, and before I come to that I should like to ask the Minister whether singing is a compulsory subject in the schools throughout the country to-day? It may not always be possible to make singing a compulsory subject in the various rural schools, but in the cities and towns I suggest that it should be made compulsory. One has only to listen to the singing in this country to-day to realise the influence which the radio has on our young people. We hear nothing but crooning from the young people all over the country to-day. Perhaps plagiarism would be the right word, because old Irish classical songs are being sung in crooning tones by the young people all over the country, and that is due to the influence of the radio. We must have something to counteract that. If not, there will not be a decent singer in this country in ten years' time. I think the Minister should apply himself to that question, as it is a very important one in so far as education is concerned.

The Minister in the course of his statement has referred to the question of scholarships in vocational education. He mentions especially the training of teachers for domestic economy. That is a matter on which I have always been very keen, and I think better facilities should be provided for pupils in vocational schools to enable them to acquire sufficient knowledge so that they can become teachers of domestic science in different parts of the country. I think there are very few opportunities, if any, afforded to pupils in vocational schools to become teachers of domestic science. The result is that you have not attracted up to now, to any great extent at any rate, the proper type of pupil to the domestic science classes. I would ask the Minister to go into that aspect of the matter, and endeavour to secure that facilities are afforded to pupils in the various schools to enable them to become teachers of domestic science. In the last three or four years no scholarships have been provided for engineering classes. Those are scholarships which were greatly availed of in the past, and I should like to know from the Minister why it is that those scholarships have been discontinued. I was told some time ago that there were too many engineering teachers in the country at the present time. That does not coincide with the facts, because I know of vocational education committees which have been trying to secure the services of engineering instructors and have not been very successful. The Estimate has been discussed at length by various speakers, so I do not propose to say any more, except to ask the Minister to consider the points I have made, and especially the question of the teaching of singing, particularly in schools in urban areas where the radio has such a bad effect on the young people.

Mr. D. Morrissey

The debate on these Estimates is usually confined very largely to those who are more or less closely associated with education, and it is therefore with a certain amount of nervousness that an ordinary member like myself ventures to speak on it. Listening to the debate to-day, and so far as one can gather from the Minister's report, we seem to be missing what, to me, is the main problem. Unquestionably, the matters dealt with, such as the provision of suitable sanitary schools and so on, are very important, but we spend somewhere around £5,000,000 on education of all sorts, and we have flattered ourselves over a number of years that we have made advances in education.

As a very ordinary man in the street, I venture to question that. I want to say that it is my opinion, and the opinion of a great many of the ordinary parents that, so far as 75 per cent. of our school-leaving children are concerned, that is, those who leave at 14 years of age—and I think I am not putting it too high when I say 75 per cent.—and who get no further school education, they are certainly no better equipped for life when leaving school to-day at 14 years of age than children were 20 years ago, and there are very many people who doubt very much if they are as well equipped to deal with the everyday affairs of life with which they have to deal and which they have to meet in their efforts to make a living.

It is undoubtedly a fine thing and, perhaps, if you like, an essential thing, that we should have the highest branches of education that we can have in this country. It is perhaps a fine thing that we have an Institute for Advanced Studies, but it is not so fine when one feels that only a very small number of our children are ever going to get an opportunity to take advantage of the Institute for Advanced Studies, or of any of the higher branches of education. I have never been able to see—and I have never heard it stated inside or outside the House—any reason why the big majority of our children should leave school at 14 years of age. I have not heard from the present Minister for Education, from any of his predecessors, or from anybody else, any good reason why the age should be 14 years, and not a higher age, but I have heard, and can myself give, many excellent reasons why it should not be allowed to remain at 14 years, and particularly, as Deputy Mulcahy said, in the cities and urban areas.

Let us face this matter plainly. What is the position of children finishing school at 14 years? Are they equipped to enable them to make their way successfully in the world? Is it not a fact that, whether we like to admit it or not, so far as the vast majority are concerned, they are not very far removed from illiteracy, and is it not an admitted fact that it is just at the very time when they would be in a position to take advantage of the education offered to them that they are leaving the schools? I do not think that the Minister, any member of the House or anybody connected or associated with the educational system of the country can congratulate himself upon any advance, so long as 75 per cent. of our children finish their schooling at 14 years of age. I know, of course, that a very excellent attempt has been made to provide education for some of these children through the vocational schools, but, again, it is a well-known fact that the number taking advantage of those schools is not worth talking about, and, further, it is very questionable if those who do take advantage of it are using these schools to acquire the additional knowledge which is going to be of any real benefit to them.

Deputy Corish in his opening remarks talked about the controversies through the country about the present educational programme of the schools. He skirted around the subject rather skilfully, without ever using the word "Irish". I understand that the position is that, for the first two years of a child's school-going life, that child is confined absolutely to the Irish language. Everything taught to the child for those two years must be taught through Irish. That may be very sound and very excellent so far as the child is concerned whose parents are in a position to keep that child at school until he or she reaches manhood or womanhood, but it is very doubtful if it is not unfair to children—I am speaking now from, if you like, the purely materialistic point of view; I am speaking of boys who are going to become labouring men, and some of them, if you like, artisans, although I do not see how they can make good artisans if they leave school at 14 years of age, and of girls who have to go out as servants, domestic and otherwise—that those two years must be used exclusively for Irish. I do not want anybody to say afterwards—I daresay it might be said—that I am against Irish. I think that is a cock that does not fight very well any longer in this country, but there are very few people, very few sane people, even those who are most enthusiastic about the Irish language and even those who are enthusiastic about having all subjects taught through the medium of Irish, who are not now satisfied—at least, in their own minds, if they will not admit it—that, after 20 years, it would be no harm if we had a little stocktaking, and if there was a proper inquiry into the benefits or otherwise of the programme in the schools over the last 20 years.

I want to say that while many matters that have been touched on by the various speakers are, in themselves, important, the most important thing, in my opinion, we have to face is what I have stated, that as far as my information goes, 75 per cent. of the school-going children of this country finish their education at 14 years of age. If that is a fact there is no use in anybody in this House, the Minister or anybody else, getting up and saying that the position in regard to education is satisfactory. Is it not an appalling thing that, having that state of affairs in a country like this, we have had to restrict and close down our training colleges for teachers?

How can we flatter ourselves that we are making full use of the freedom and the power and everything else we have got in this country, when, right from the beginning, we are continuing that greatest handicap of all upon our citizens? We very often read in the newspapers lectures from people in privileged positions in this country about the lack of citizenship amongst our people. What training in citizenship are the citizens of this country getting? What training in citizenship or in civic duty or anything else can they get in the primary schools with their already overloaded programme?

I would ask Deputies and the Government to look at this. In a city like Dublin, or any of our cities or larger urban areas, children leave school at 14 years of age. They do not go into employment, because there is no employment available for them. Very often, there is very little room for them in the home, in the sense that their mothers, during the day, are probably working in a one-roomed tenement or a two-roomed house. There is no room at home for the children, and the only alternative for them is the street corners, with all the temptations and, if you like, all the instruction that must inevitably flow from that. The child in the rural areas, from the point of view of the temptation, is not in quite so bad a situation as the city child, because, from 14 years of age, rural children are very often engaged, or can be engaged, in useful occupations around the farm or place; but I think it is an appalling state of affairs that thousands of children of 14 years of age—some of them not quite 14— leave our schools every year, and that their education is, as I say, to put it very bluntly and plainly, continued at the street corners. Human nature being what it is, they are not going to pick up very much on the streets, or at the street corners, that would improve their minds.

I am afraid, Sir, that I have taken a longer time than I intended to take. As I said, I approached this Estimate with a certain amount of nervousness, but what I have stated is what I have felt, and felt rather keenly, for a considerable time, and I felt it so much that I believed it should be said. It is my view—and I want to repeat it—that there is very little use in our talking about our secondary schools, our universities, and our Institute for Advanced Studies, so long as 75 per cent. of our children finish their schooling at 14 years of age.

Mr. O'Rourke

I had intended to speak in Irish on this occasion, but in view of the remarks that were made in English by some previous speakers, I have decided on speaking a few words in English. I may say that I am in complete agreement with Deputies Mulcahy and Morrissey on this question of the school-leaving age. I am sorry that the Minister for Education is not here, but I presume that will be conveyed to him. However, Deputy Mulcahy seems to think that it would be all right if the raised school-leaving age were applied merely to the cities and big towns.

I do not agree with that, because in the country places many of the pupils have to come a long distance and, as a result, it is general for them to wait until they are up to the statutory age of six years before going to school, whereas, in the city, most of the children go at a much younger age. Consequently, in the case of country children, by leaving off at 14 years of age the period is very short, and I need scarcely say that during these years, supposed to be eight years, there is a great deal of irregular attendance, particularly in the country. I cannot speak for the city, but during these years there is a great deal of irregularity of attendance in the country districts. In connection with that, nobody apparently has drawn the Minister's attention to the laxity in the enforcement of the Compulsory Attendance Act. As it is being administered at present, my opinion is that it is worse than a farce and that it would have been much better if it were never enacted at all. Formerly, parents generally tried to send the children to school as young as they were able to go, but now they generally think that six years is all right. Even before they come to the age of 14, the pupils themselves and their parents have already marked out the time during which they are to attend, and quite punctually they stop at 14, and sometimes before it.

Now, I hold that that period of school life is entirely too short to make an ordinary pupil proficient, not to speak of a dull one. The very brainy child may be, and generally is, pretty good at the age of 14, but the dull pupil or the mediocre pupil is certainly not good and cannot be in that time. Nobody will attempt to deny that the task of becoming proficient in two languages in eight years is a very great one—almost too much for any pupil. I have been teaching myself. I have taught bright pupils and dull ones but, undoubtedly, that is a very great task. There is this mistake, however, made by some of the speakers: that they seem to think that because a pupil begins in Irish he can do no useful work in that language or that he cannot do any thinking in that language. That is where they make a great mistake. To the person who speaks to, or questions such pupils only in English they may seem to know nothing, but if you question them in Irish it will be found that they are very well up, that they know their tables, can subtract and divide and so on, and do problems in Irish. The purely English-speaking person does not know that, and when he questions these pupils in English he thinks they know nothing. That is not a correct view. If you question them in Irish you will find that these pupils can do a great deal, and of course that obtains to a great extent in the higher standards. I should like to repeat what I have said about compulsory attendance. I do not know whether any stock is taken by the Minister of the enactment of that Act, but I think he should take the matter up with the Minister for Justice, and if the Act is not enforced I hold it should be repealed.

I am sorry to say that I have to refer once more to Deputy Dillon. I do not know whether he is biased against the teachers he has in mind or not, but he has made some of the most idiotic statements here, and he made similar statements on other occasions, to the effect that it is a general thing that pupils who come to the school-leaving age cannot read correctly, cannot write legibly or write a composition that is intelligible. That is a most outlandish statement and I do not know where Deputy Dillon has got his information, but if he has in mind a few instances of that kind, surely that does not entitle him to generalise on these few instances. I have dealt with dozens of pupils for the one pupil that Deputy Dillon could possibly have dealt with —not to speak of the inspectors who have been examining schools over a long period of years. We must presume that an inspector is much better qualified to judge the work of a pupil than a man like Deputy Dillon, and these inspectors generally report that schools are efficient or even highly efficient. Very few of the schools are marked inefficient. In spite of these facts a gentleman of Deputy Dillon's type comes along and tries to make the members of this House believe—and incidentally make the people of this country believe—that illiteracy is prevalent in this country. That is entirely wrong and I do not know what could tempt any man to make such statements. Deputy Kissane, speaking in Irish, very truly said that the writing of pupils in most schools would compare very favourably with the writing of most Deputies here. I happen to have samples of Deputy Dillon's writing and I am quite sure that it would be no credit to a fourth or fifth class pupil. I have not the least hesitation in saying that. It might be better if the Deputy would look into his own deficiencies before condemning others.

An Ceann Comhairle

The alleged defects of our educational system may be discussed, not those of fellow-Deputies.

Mr. Corish

Perhaps that might be regarded as one of the characteristics of an advanced statesman?

Mr. O'Rourke

He may be an advanced statesman, but he is not in a position to regard himself as a judge of writing in the schools. I do not think Deputy Dillon is correct in saying that the ordinary pupil of school-leaving age cannot read fluently. My experience is the very opposite. My experience is that those pupils can read fluently, both in English and Irish. Deputy Dillon's theory all the time seems to be that, outside the Gaeltacht, people cannot be taught other subjects through the medium of Irish. That is not correct. Any teacher who knows the language well can certainly impart a good knowledge of geography and history through the Irish language. Assuming children are taught through Irish, if you ask them questions in English they may not answer you in English, but that does not mean that they do not know the subject.

Deputy Dillon put forward a hypothetical case of two scholars being examined in geography. One answers slowly through English, he says, and gets 80 out of 100 marks. The other pupil, who cannot write a sentence correctly, who writes it ungrammatically and whose paper generally is bad, gets 85 marks purely because he writes his paper in Irish. That is the sheerest nonsense. We must assume that the examiner has a conscience. I do not know anybody who would do such a thing as give 85 marks to a pupil who knows absolutely nothing and who simply pretends to do the paper in Irish. I have examined the papers of pupils doing their primary certificate, and I have found they could write Irish fluently, not ungrammatically, as Deputy Dillon suggested. I would like to correct the impression created by the Deputy, not merely for the sake of the teachers, but for the sake of the system and the Department of Education. What the Deputy stated was entirely unjust. He made statements that are not in accordance with the facts.

I am not much of an authority on secondary education, but I think that practically every Deputy here will agree that the restoration of the national language is an immediate necessity. There may be a difference of opinion as to how it should be done. We have heard references to Grade A secondary schools, in which all the subjects are taught through Irish. I have been on the playgrounds of Grade A schools. I have heard pupils speaking amongst themselves, and I assure you I did not hear them speak in Irish. In fact, very rarely have I heard them speak in Irish on the playground or outside the school. I believe the same applies to the university. That is not as it ought to be. If, within the Grade A schools, Irish is exclusively used, it should also be used on the playgrounds and outside.

So far as Irish is concerned, there is a great difficulty in the secondary schools, in the sense that there appears to be no oral examination. There may be an inspection, but there appears to be no oral examination of individual pupils. That is a grave injustice to the Irish language. I have known brilliant students who got scholarships through our county council scheme—I am not going to mention names—and who have done their matriculation, got their leaving certificates and even got their degrees, and now they simply do not want to speak one word of Irish. They went through the Grade. A schools and all the best educational establishments in the country and, after finishing their course, they did not want to speak Irish. Is there not something wrong in that? I suggest there is and that it is a matter that the Minister should inquire into. There should be an oral examination for matriculation, for leaving certificates and also in the universities.

The same should apply to the national schools. At the present time, when the pupil goes outside, he is expected to speak Irish to other pupils but he does not do so. If Irish is not to be used afterwards, there is no use in spending so much money and time teaching the language in the national schools, in the secondary schools, and elsewhere. Very little purpose is served in teaching Irish unless the pupils, even those who follow the higher branches of education and take their degrees, are anxious and ready to speak the language at all times. The fact of the matter is that they do not do so. It is notorious that brilliant students who have gone through the higher course of education will not speak Irish when their educational training is completed.

The Minister should investigate that matter and should insist that Irish is used right through.

I have a slight acquaintance with vocational schools, more especially from the point of view of the Irish language. In the county I represent there is a number of Irish classes conducted under the supervision of the Vocational Education Committee. So far as I am aware, there is not a proper programme arranged for those classes and there is no inspection whatever. That matter should be immediately investigated. I became painfully aware of that fact only recently. There is no proper programme set for the Irish classes and there is no inspection that I am aware of.

I would like to see the school-leaving age raised, both in the towns and in the country, to 16 years. There seems to be an exaggerated notion abroad as to the cost that would be involved. In most country schools it will mean very little extra. It will not mean the employment of more teachers. It may or may not mean a small amount by way of capitation grant, but a regulation can be made under which a capitation grant will not be paid in respect of pupils over 14 years. That type of thing was in force before and it could be put into operation again. I should like to stress the need for oral examination in all the schools and particularly in regard to matriculation, the leaving certificate and the university. There is no oral examination in those institutions that deal with the higher branches of education, and that is entirely wrong. There may be a collective examination in the secondary schools, but there is not an examination of every individual pupil. I think that the Minister would do well to attend to some of these matters.

Mr. Bennett

This is an estimate for something like £3,750,000 and if we add secondary and technical education the total sum to be voted for education is something like £4,600,000. If the House and the people were satisfied that for that expenditure we get the best possible results and that the children were being educated to the best possible advantage with a view to making them creditable and useful citizens, then I venture to say there would be no hesitation in voting that sum and very little adverse comment on the Vote for Education. But there is not general satisfaction, so far as I know, that we are getting quite adequate results for this expenditure, nor am I sure that the Minister himself is satisfied, because in one portion of his statement, speaking of examinations by inspectors, etc., and perhaps suggesting an alternative method of examination, he said: "Until we have such an examination, the public cannot have any real guarantee that the actual proportion of pupils who leave the primary schools with a satisfactory knowledge of the three R's is such as to justify our huge expenditure of nearly £4,000,000."

If the Minister was satisfied that the children were adequately educated even in the three R's, he would not have put in that paragraph. The Minister apparently is not satisfied, nor, I venture to say, is Deputy O'Rourke quite satisfied, even though he denied Deputy Dillon's allegation that the children are not adequately educated, because in one portion of his speech he said that the task of becoming proficient in two languages in eight years was impossible. If I am to take anything from the remarks of the Deputy, he meant that the children were not proficient in either one or the other.

Mr. O'Rourke

I did not say that.

Mr. Bennett

The Deputy did not say that, but I am entitled to interpret what the Deputy, who is a teacher, said, and that is, that the task of being proficient in two languages in eight years is impossible.

Mr. O'Rourke

I said for the ordinary pupil.

Mr. Bennett

I am referring to the ordinary pupil. I will amend it to suit the Deputy, and say that for the ordinary pupil to become proficient in two languages in eight years is impossible. Therefore, the Deputy's opinion, when interpreted, is that the average child, if he is proficient in any language, will be only proficient in one; that he cannot be proficient in two languages in eight years. The probability is that he will be proficient in neither; that he will only get a smattering of both. That may be one of the reasons why some of us are right in thinking that we are not getting value for this huge expenditure; of course we may be altogether wrong.

The Minister says that we must have some method of examination before we can determine whether children are proficient in the three R's or not. Probably the Minister is right, that nobody can arrive at a proper determination as to that without an examination. But the general public are not satisfied, and they judge it in the way that the ordinary person judges it —by the method of comparison. That is about the easiest method by which a judgment can be arrived at in matters like this. Some of us who are middle-aged will remember the days when we went to a national school and can compare what we learned with what the children are learning now. I am not at all ashamed to admit that I am the product of a national school, that almost all I know is due to the teachers of a certain national school. If I am to judge from what the children of my time learned in a national school, I would say definitely that the children of to-day are not as well educated in national schools as the children of 50 years ago.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Tuesday, 27 May 1941

Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Office of the Minister for Education.

Eamonn O Ciosáin

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 27 May 1941