Vote 62—Wireless Broadcasting.

Mr. Little

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £46,995 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1942, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí cile i dtaobh. Fóirleatha Neashrangaigh (Uimh. 45 de 1926).

That a sum, not exceeding £46,995, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1942, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926).

The amount of the Estimate for the broadcasting service for the financial year 1941-42 is £70,595, a decrease of £55 on the provision for last year. Taking the figures under the principal sub-heads, sub-head A—Salaries, Wages, etc.—is increased by £1,100. The increase is due to incremental increases in salaries and wages and to additional engineering staff provision for short-wave transmissions. In sub-head B—Cost of Programmes—there is a decrease of £800, due to shorter programme hours and a reduction of outside broadcasts. The gross decrease is £3,300, but provision amounting to £2,500 has been made for short wave transmissions and increased performing rights fees. The net decrease is, therefore, £800.

Sub-head E—Light, Power, etc.— shows a decrease of £640. The full amount of the decrease is £740, arising from reduced programme hours, but there is offsetting expenditure of £100 for short wave transmissions. Under sub-head F—Plant, Equipment, etc.— the net increase is £390. A sum of £1,460 is included for additional equipment for short wave transmissions, but there are savings, against this, in respect of equipment for the home broadcasting service which is not at present obtainable owing to war conditions.

Short wave broadcasts from 4.0 to 4.30 a.m. were radiated from the 1st December, 1940, to the 31st March, 1941, and reception reports were received from representatives of the Department of External Affairs abroad. Reception was, on the whole, unsatisfactory and the broadcasts have been suspended for the time being. It was hoped to obtain further equipment for the purpose of increasing the power of the short wave transmitter but, for the present, this has been found impossible.

Broadcasting revenue in the financial year 1940-41 amounted to £125,500 approximately. The revenue from wireless licences was £109,500 and from advertisements and miscellaneous receipts £16,000. The revenue from licences in 1941-42 is estimated at £112,500. The total number of licences on the 31st March, 1941, was 182,694— an increase of about 13,000 on the number at the same date in 1940. The increase is satisfactory, but the Department continues to experience considerable trouble by reason of the failure of many owners of receiving sets to take out or renew their licences in proper course. Last year, legal proceedings were taken against over 800 defaulters. I would appeal again, as I did last year, to all concerned to comply promptly with what is a statutory and, indeed, a moral obligation, and incidentally avoid for themselves the needless expense of court costs.

The position regarding advertising programmes is that owing to developing difficulties in regard to supplies of raw materials, the revenue from advertisements in the current year is not now considered likely to exceed £3,000, or one-third of the sum originally expected. The sponsored programmes are confined to Irish registered organisations, excluding the wholesale and retail distributive trades and makers of patent medicines, cosmetics and alcohol.

Broadcasting organisations everywhere have had to contend with abnormal difficulties during the past year and in this respect Radio Eireann has not been an exception. I referred last year, for instance, to the interference with transmission from Athlone from stations of other countries which was being experienced, and while everything possible has been done by way of representations to the Administrations responsible, I regret that a certain amount of interference continues. I am afraid, however, that no material improvement can be hoped for until the war ends.

Programme hours have been shortened. The urgent need for the exercise of the strictest economy in expenditure has necessitated a reduction of about six hours a week in broadcasts of local artists, and there has been an increase of recorded programmes.

Public symphony concerts have also been suspended, but I hope to arrange for some public concerts next season on the lines of the Friday orchestral hour.

The news service has been given particular attention and an additional news bulletin is now being broadcast daily in the midday programme.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Except on Sundays, when we get only one service.

Mr. Little

There is good ground for thinking that, by reason especially of the impartial manner in which news items are presented, particularly those relating to the international hostilities, the news bulletins of Radio Eireann are now followed with considerable interest not only within the country but even in places outside.

The need for developing the purely Irish aspects of the programmes is constantly in mind and to this end the distinctive features such as the Irish news bulletins, the special Irish musical programmes which are given nightly, as well as Irish plays, talks, etc., have been extended and improved. The production of drama and dramatisation in Irish suffers, however, from the lack of creative writers and competent actors and producers, and especially from the difficulty of procuring plays in the Irish language which are suitable for radio production. Music constitutes 54 per cent. of the total programmes. Apart from Irish music—operas, symphonies, chamber music and the classics are broadcast as regular features of the national programmes. Since I spoke last year, there has been an amount of work done in the orchestration of Irish music and the arrangement of Irish ballads.

Encouragement is given to Irish musicians to supply the need for new compositions and arrangements, and good fees are paid for performing rights. I intend to develop the policy of encouraging those who are competent to do work of this kind, as part of my general aim of making the Irish broadcasting service distinctively national.

Mr. Brennan

As broadcasting can be an instrument of great utility as well as an instrument of pleasure, I suppose it is our duty to point out what we consider to be drawbacks in this service. The Minister's remark with regard to provision, or lack of provision, of power for short wave transmission reminds me to ask what our position is in that regard, and with regard to transmission generally. Are we tied to a wave length? In case of emergency, if anything happened here, what would be our position? Is there any way by which we could change from the present wave length to some other wave length in case of necessity? Other European countries had to abandon the original wave lengths and adopt other wave lengths. I do not know if advantage could be taken of the present emergency by way of excuse to allow anything like that to happen here. It might mean the saving of the country if broadcasting could be continued in an emergency. Generally speaking, I am not going to find fault with the programmes, because, in a small country like this, we would not be able to compete with the very large broadcasting syndicates in other places. On the whole, I think we are doing fairly well. More attention should be paid to the news service. It is really scandalous that we do not get any news on Sunday until 10 o'clock at night. I do not know if there is any excuse for that, or why the present arrangement is persisted in. I cannot understand why our station does not open for news at six. What we get is something that I am afraid may be instrumental in killing the Irish language, because it is a rehash of the news of the week in Irish. Do Deputies or anybody outside want to hear the week's news in English, or in any other language, or even of the previous day's news? They do not, particularly in these times when events move so quickly. It is the last word to expect people to listen to such news in the Irish language. I do not know that anyone would do that except enthusiasts.

I am afraid that the people who design the programmes in Irish are just enthusiasts and design them for enthusiasts and no one else. We have a broadcast of news in Irish at night for ten minutes and then in English immediately afterwards. Speaking as one who in his early days learned a limited amount of Irish and by great effort could pick a great deal of the news out of the broadcast, am I going to do that when I can hear the news in English without effort ten minutes later? I am speaking also from the point of view of country dwellers with families, all of whom learned Irish at school and are able to follow the news in Irish. Though they can do so will they be enthusiastic enough to listen, knowing that they can get the news without effort in ten minutes? They are not going to bother. I do not know any person who will make an extra effort to do something when he can gain the same end without effort. If news in Irish was broadcast at 8 or 9 o'clock we would all listen in to try to pick it up. It would be news then, and possibly there would be other news at 10 p.m. I do not think it is reasonable, in the interest of the Irish language, to broadcast news in Irish at 10 o'clock; it may be reasonable enough otherwise. The case may be made that there is more news to broadcast at 10 o'clock than at 9 o'clock, but if you can force people like me, who have a little Irish, to listen for the sake of the news and not for the sake of the language, then you will have done something. If, however, you broadcast something to which only enthusiasts will listen, then you are not catering for anybody but the enthusiasts, and you are really doing no good for the Irish language.

These are two things which, to my mind, want remedying. First, we want news on Sunday. People turn on the news in Irish at half-past five, or whatever time it is, and then they are watching for 6 o'clock to get the British news. There is no news given in English at that time. I do not know why that is. It cannot be a question of cost, because five minutes of news would not cost very much and, apparently, the service is paying its way. The people who are paying for the licences are entitled to some return for their money, and they are looking for it. After all, Sunday is an idle day. There are no newspapers to be had in the country districts. People do not hear any news for the day and they are anxious to get some news in the evening, but they do not get it from Radio Eireann. I do not think that is good enough, and I think it ought to be remedied.

I should also like to see the broadcasting service used more for urging compliance with regulations and orders made by the Government. We have that now with regard to foot-and-mouth disease; in fact we have it ad nauseam. We have a repetition of the same thing night after night but it is required in the present conditions. During the tillage campaign, for instance, we had some very useful talks on agriculture and these might be continued from time to time with very good effect. The radio, I think, ought to be used to urge the people to comply, for instance, with the regulations about the marketing of eggs. I have always felt that we are really “anti-law” in this country. We have that tradition, and I suppose we are not to blame for it. I always have the feeling that the women of the country do not wish to comply with the orders relating to the marketing of eggs if they can avoid it. If it could be brought home to them by wireless talks that they were really engaged in a competition and that only the best can win, I think a lot of good could be done for the country. I was really amazed and scandalised recently to hear Government Deputies asking for a relaxation of the regulations regarding the marketing of eggs. I think that shows a shocking mentality. In these days of competition, as I said, only the best can win. That ought to be brought home to the people by every means possible, and I suggest that the radio is one of the best means to do that. There could also be talks about the rearing and marketing of poultry and very good use could be made of the radio in that way. I do not think that the matter has been very well thought out. This is an agricultural country. Latterly it has been brought home to everybody that we are depending entirely upon the agricultural produce we can market. I do not want to bore the people with talks on agriculture, but I do think that more use should be made of broadcasting in that way so that people can have the advantage of hearing talks by persons who are conversant with the subject and not have all this loose talk about the relaxation of orders and regulations which are necessary for the proper marketing of our goods. I think that is a shocking mistake.

With regard to ceilidhe music, I am always charmed with that music, and did what I could to popularise it. But there are times when we get too much of it. I do not think it is good policy to have, say, the Columcille band on a Tuesday night playing certain jigs, reels and hornpipes, on the following night to have Leo McCabe's band playing the same thing over again, and the night after the same thing over again by some other band. There ought to be some variation; you can give too much of anything. If the ceilidhe programmes were a little more selective, possibly you would please the people better and do a little more good. On the whole, considering our limitations, I do not think that very much fault can be found with the programmes generally. We have certainly very good broadcasts of records; the selections are usually pretty good. Before I conclude I should like to say to the Minister that there is something due to the licence holders by way of news on Sunday. We may tune in and hear Bing Crosby crooning and somebody else yodelling, but we are looking for news on Sunday, and I hope the Minister will see that we get it, as I think we are entitled to it.

Mr. Corish

Up to and including last year I had to complain about the reception in the Wexford area. On this occasion I want to thank the Minister for having given attention to that matter. Immediately after the debate on the Estimate last year an inspector was sent down to Wexford, and as a result of his report I am glad to say that the reception has improved considerably. I also want to stress the importance of giving news on Sunday. As Deputy Brennan pointed out, there is no news given in English until 10.5 or 10.10 on Sunday night. I think it is very important that we should have news broadcast during the day. At a time like this various rumours are floating around, and one is anxious to hear if there is any truth in them. There are all sorts of rumours going about which certainly do a good deal of harm. The radio station is open on Sunday at 1 or 1.30 p.m., and it would not be any great trouble to give news at that time.

Again, in connection with the news service, I am of opinion that Irish news items should get preference. We get all the war news from the English stations at 1 o'clock every day, and then we get a rehash of it from Athlone at 1.40. Nobody wants to listen twice to the same news. But there are certain announcements and certain items of Irish news which one wants to hear at 1.40. Surely it is not too much to ask that the Irish news items should be given preference and put first. Government announcements and matters like that should be given precedence to English war news. Everybody is sick and tired of war news. People do not believe a word of the war news they hear on the radio. We have a rehash of the war news from the Athlone station after listening to it for 20 minutes or half an hour from some English station. I ask the Minister to see that the Irish news items are given first.

Mr. Dockrell

Is not the news from the English stations given at 12 o'clock now?

Mr. Corish

That does not make very much difference. After listening-in to an English station, you get a rehash of the news from the Irish station at 1.40; the hour does not make very much difference. I also referred last year to the question time feature which is broadcast every Sunday night. It has always been a very interesting feature, and the present compere, Mr. Linnane, has made it even more interesting. The Minister made a promise last year, I think, that different parts of the country would be given an opportunity of having question time or a question hour. I cannot understand why question time should be completely confined to Dublin. Perhaps I should not have used the word "completely" because, now and again, we have question time from different parts of the country. I do want to suggest to the Minister that he ought to make arrangements whereby other parts of the country, not already served, would get their share of question time. As I have said, the Minister made a promise to me last year in that connection, but so far it has not been fulfilled.

Deputy Brennan referred to the fact that very little information is given on agriculture and subjects of that kind. During the past year, as the Minister knows, the Government have been asking the people, especially those in the towns, to do what many of them had never done before, namely, to till their plots and gardens. In my opinion, sufficient advantage has not been taken of the radio for the purpose of giving talks to those people on the sowing of their plots or allotments. It may be that there are many of them who know very little about the cultivation of cabbages, onions, lettuces, etc., and it would strike one, in view of the Government's policy, that advantage would have been taken to give such people instruction over the radio. Many of those people may not know the best varieties of cabbage, for example, to sow—I mean cabbage of a variety that will be available all the year round. In view of the fact that the Government want the food situation attended to, one would imagine that they would have tried to secure the services of someone capable of giving instructions to those people on the tilling of their plots, and on the sowing of the best varieties of vegetables.

A little over a year ago a competition was initiated on the radio by Count John McCormack. I would like to know from the Minister what has been the result of it, and what happened to the winner who, I think, was a Cork person. Certain promises were made that the winner would be trained. We have heard very little about the competition since. I am sure the Minister will agree with me that there should be some finality about a competition of that kind. The people of the country should be told what happened in connection with it. Certainly, Count McCormack was not very complimentary in his remarks on the closing night of the competition. In view of that especially, we would like to know what happened or were people simply brought up to Dublin to be made fools of? Competitors from all over the country came forward in an effort to secure whatever prize was offered, but since the concluding night of the competition the thing appears to have died a natural death.

These are the only points I have to deal with. I hope the Minister will try to give us news on Sundays at mid-day. Take last Saturday, for example, in connection with the unfortunate bombing of this city; we got more information about it from the English station early in the morning than we did from the Irish station at mid-day. The English people seemed to have had more accurate information about the bombing of the people than the Athlone station was able to give to the Irish people at mid-day on Saturday.

Mr. Kissane

I agree with Deputy Brennan that wireless broadcasting can be an instrument of great utility. It can also be an instrument of great controversy. It is hard, I know, to satisfy the tastes of all sections of the people. It would be impossible to do that. It may seem strange for me to say that, while I was one of those who advocated the ten minutes news in the Irish language—I advocated it very strongly—I am not satisfied with it. I think everybody knows that I am a supporter of the Irish language, that I advocate its use and that I am very enthusiastic about it, but, while that is so, I am not satisfied with the ten minutes news given in Irish over the radio on week evenings. That does not mean that I want to have this feature done away with. It is with the form in which it is presented I am dissatisfied, and with the way in which it is presented. I am very much afraid that some of the announcers do not know exactly how to put their voices over the air. Their voices are not distinct enough. Some are very indistinct, and even though my own ear is fairly attuned to the Irish language, to nearly all the dialects, but especially to the Munster dialect, I find it hard to follow the announcers. Surely that is a matter that could be rectified. I would ask the Minister to see to it that those people who come to the microphone to give us news in Irish are properly instructed how to make their voices clear and distinct: to make it possible, even for people who are not very well up in Irish, to follow them. If they do that they will be rendering a great service to the Irish language, they will be making it possible for people to take an interest in it, and even for those who are not well up in the language, they will be making it possible for them to become more fluent in their use of it.

As I am on the subject of the Irish language, I want to say that I think extreme care should be taken, whenever there is a talk or a discourse in Irish over the radio or, as the Minister referred to it, any drama in Irish, that the very best speakers of Irish should be procured for that purpose. After all, what comes from the radio station goes all over the country, and if people listen in and get accustomed to bad Irish, well that will be bad for the Irish language. I am afraid that from time to time I do hear the Irish language spoken badly over the radio. The most important question of all, however, is that of the news. In order to avoid making this feature—the ten minutes news in Irish—unpopular, we will have to see to it that the voices of the announcers carry over properly, that the announcers take their time and do not, as one might say, eat their words.

It would be difficult to say to a player: "You must play such a piece to-night." Music is a spontaneous thing and it would be unwise to interfere with the ordinary, natural flow of music from those people who have the gift. If what Deputy Brennan suggested could be done, I should like to see it tried. I should like to see a variation of the ceilidh programme night after night, if that was feasible. I am very much in favour of ceilidh music but I am also in favour of the slow, traditional, Irish airs. Nowadays, we seldom hear these slow, traditional, airs on the wireless. While we have very good singers of slow, traditional airs, they do not seem to give them the prominence that they ought to give them. In many cases they select Scottish Gaelic songs in preference to the Irish songs. I have no objection to Scottish Gaelic songs. They are very nice but I should like to see pride of place given to our own traditional songs. The supposition, I think, at present is that the singing of Gaelic songs is a mark of superiority in the singer. I prefer to hear the old traditional songs, such as "A Mháirín de Bharra," and "Sliabh na mBan."

Reference has been made to Nuacht na Seachtaine. I should not like to see that abolished. I have made reference already to some of the announcers in the Irish language. I am afraid that some of them do not speak sufficiently slowly and distinctly to enable the people to understand them. That cannot be said of the person who reads Nuacht na Seachtaine. He is most distinct. His voice is most clear and his Irish is musical, natural and perfect. Apart from the news value of the talk, I imagine it is a good education for students of the Irish language to listen in to Nuacht na Seachtaine on Sunday evenings.

I am also in favour of a regional question time if it could be managed. It has been a success in many cases and it lends novelty to the item. It creates not alone nation-wide interest but local interest. If each region got its own opportunity, it would enhance the interest and value of question time. In conclusion, I must say that I am very pleased with the improvement that has taken place in the programmes. I hope that that improvement will continue and that whatever developments take place will be directed from the point of view of our own Irish culture—Irish songs, Irish music, Irish talks and everything else of cultural value.

Dr. Hannigan

This Estimate is one which merits the close attention of the House. It is gratifying to observe that, each year, greater interest is being evinced in this service by members of the House, generally. That is as it should be, because wireless broadcasting is a service of ever-increasing importance. To appreciate its value, we might, even in ordinary peace times, merely refer to its utility as a cultural and educational instrument, as a form of entertainment readily available in every home and as a suitable medium for the distribution of news. In a period of emergency, its importance becomes very much greater because it may be the only medium through which news can be transmitted and by which instructions can be given to the community at large to do certain things or to refrain from doing certain things. In these circumstances, it is very important for the Department to ensure that the native station, Radio Eireann, be listened in to by as large a section of the community as possible and as frequently as possible. Otherwise, its value in an emergency would be very much less than it should be.

I regret to note that the progress made by Radio Eireann during the past 12 months has been very slight. It does not appear to be keeping in step with foreign broadcasting stations. That is a pity because I fear there is a general tendency to ignore the native station and to listen in more and more to foreign stations. I am sure that that is largely due to the fact that the standard of entertainment provided by the native station is very much below that provided by the rival foreign stations. I think that a little more initiative could, with advantage, be developed by the broadcasting authorities. So far as we are concerned in this House, the Minister is the authority, because he is responsible to the House for the service.

I do not see why the proceedings in this House could not be broadcast on selected occasions, say on Budget day, when only the leaders of the Government Party and the principal Opposition Parties speak. That is an example of something which could be broadcast to the nation and which would focus attention on the Irish radio station.

There is one specific complaint I should like to make with regard to the news bulletins. In a general way the news bulletins are good inasmuch as they give a fairly reasonable summary of the current news. The Irish nation is not behind time in broadcasting the news. It should be apparent to everyone that as far as the broadcast of news is concerned it is necessary to repeat the broadcast of important news items in the various news summaries. What I am concerned with is that on Sunday there is only one news bulletin. If there is any day in the week when there should be two or three news bulletins it is Sunday, for the simple reason that there are no afternoon or evening papers and that the news in the Sunday papers is stale.

Mr. Brennan

And there are no Sunday papers in the country.

Dr. Hannigan

Another thing is that there has been no reference to television. Even before the war television in England was regarded as a practical proposition, and at that time everybody could have seen exhibitions of it and have satisfied themselves that it had reached a fair stage of perfection. The last thing I wish to refer to is a matter that was discussed at some length on this Estimate last year. Very severe criticism was levelled against the Department because of the niggardly fees paid in respect of performing rights. I understand that the position in that regard has not improved materially. I think that that is a deplorable state of affairs, as the matter was drawn to the attention of the Minister last year not only by members on this side of the House but, as far as I can recollect, by some of the Deputies on the Government side. I understand that the position has not improved very much. In fact, I know of one particular case where a play ran for almost an hour on the air and involved a month's work on the part of the author. That was a month's very hard work, as I understand the technique in the preparation of such a play is very different from that needed in the ordinary course. The author has to keep in mind that the audience can only hear the actors and not see them, and that involves a considerable amount of trouble in preparing plays for broadcasting. In this particular instance I understand that, although the play ran for almost an hour and involved a month's work on the author's part, the princely sum of £3 3s. was paid to the author. How on earth are we to encourage native talent, how are we to secure the best that is in our artists or bring out their literary talent, how can we provide listeners with good value for their money, if such small fees are paid?

Mr. Byrne

The point I wish to touch on is that of the failure of the boradcasting authorities, on St. Patrick's Day, to broadcast a very important soccer match played in Dublin, and which was of very great interest to some thousands of people on both sides of the Border. That match was of sufficient importance to be broadcast. I would like also to ask those who prepared the sports programme why it was that a very important match between Old Belvedere and Blackrock—and the replay of that match—was not broadcast, although it was of great interest all over Ireland, and I would like to know if there is any reasonable explanation.

I wonder if the authorities were aware of the great interest displayed in the Shamrock Rovers v. Waterford soccer match and the Cork v. Dundalk soccer match—both of them semi-finals of the Irish Cup. Again, there was another match between Cork and Dundalk—a semi-final replay—and there was a match between Shamrock Rovers and Waterford—another semi-final replay—and there was a final, and again there was a replay between Cork and Waterford. I wish to give credit to the authorities if there was any difficulty which prevented the matches being broadcast. It is true that they gave a quarter of an hour for an outline of the play at news time, and those interested in soccer were very pleased with what was done. However, the sporting type who may not have been listening to the news at the news hour, when a review of the match was given, were keenly disappointed— firstly that none of the matches was broadcast and, secondly, that they were not listening at the news time.

I wish to assure the authorities that they need not be afraid of any type of public opinion in their broadcast of soccer or rugby matches. At any time in Dalymount Park or any of the principal parks in this city you will see 30,000 people at these matches— members of the National Army, members of the Old I.R.A. and followers of certain forms of sport who are not supposed to be there, according to their rules, but are there all the same. The Irish Government should face up to their responsibility. I can assure them that it was a sight worth seeing when 30,000—on one occasion 32,000— were at a football match, and when the National Anthem of this country was played they stood with their hats off and most of them joined in it themselves. We have Ministers of State who enjoy these soccer matches. The Government should, once and for all, in case there is any prejudice against it, face the fact that the country as a whole desires no prejudices so far as the sport of the country is concerned.

It is to be hoped that when any of these important games come around again the sports editor will take into consideration the feelings and views of the many thousands of people who would like to listen-in.

There may be some reason for it but it is difficult for the ordinary person to understand what it is. Many Deputies, while making complaint here to-day, seemed to try to excuse the Minister on the ground that to do such and such a thing would cost money. May I remind the Deputies that the income of this service last year was £125,000 and the amount spent on it was £70,509. Have I got the Minister's figures correctly?

Mr. Little

That is right.

Mr. D. Morrissey

We find, as I say, an improvement in the programme. We find, on the other hand, that our programme does not start until 6.30 in the evening. Of course, we get sponsored programmes in the middle of the day, news at 1.40 and then there is a gap until 6.30. The station closes down at eleven o'clock. Frankly, I do not consider that the quality of the programme put over the air or the number of hours devoted to it are, particularly at present, in keeping with the dignity of this country.

I agree absolutely with Deputies who commented on the very low fees that are paid to artistes. Does anybody think that if you get a person down the country worth hearing on the air, two or three guineas is going to attract that person to broadcast from the city? I do not want to be picking holes unduly but I wonder if any member of the House tried to listen a few nights ago to a broadcast of a concert that was being held in a theatre in the city. If any Deputy tuned in to that particular broadcast, how long was it before he switched off? Anything more uninteresting, I think, was never attempted over the air. Part of the programme, which may have been, and which I am sure was, very interesting and very entertaining from the point of view of the people in the theatre was far from entertaining as it came over the air. Most of the time was taken up with the description of a ballet and we heard something like this: "Now they are moving to the left, now they are moving to the right, now they are coming down the centre, now something else is happening." At least 20 minutes was devoted to a description of that kind—a complete waste of time. It was started, I might say, in the middle of a performance given by one of the most popular artistes in the country. Then the balance of the time was taken up giving us a description of the ballet.

I should like to know why the Minister talks about economy, why this service should be as strangled as it is— perhaps that is too strong a word to use—but why should it be restricted in the way it is when there is a surplus and when that surplus, subscribed by the licence holders of the country, is going into the general revenue of the country? Let us face the fact that the result of all this is that you merely collect a licence fee of 12/6 from the owner of a radio set and the person who pays that fee to the State listens for nine-tenths of the time to a British station. We do not want that. We want to get our people interested in our own programmes. We want to make the programme so interesting that the people will, of their own choice, tune in to their own station. I do not agree with Deputy Kissane that interviews are as uninteresting as he describes.

I think that interviews can be very interesting and very informative. I agree with Deputy Brennan and others that we should have more talks upon agriculture and horticulture. It is, however, one thing to have talks. It is quite another thing to make these talks as interesting as they should be. Most of these talks can be made very interesting and there is no doubt that, particularly at a period like the present, farmers and, as Deputy Corish stated, plot-holders, many of whom never tilled a piece of ground before, could benefit considerably if proper advice were given over the radio regarding the sowing and cultivation of crops and vegetables.

I should like the Minister when he is concluding to tell us why there is only one news service on Sunday and also why an hour per day has been taken off the programme. Having regard to the total amount subscribed by licence holders, the saving made as a result of that curtailment of an hour in the programme is, I think, paltry. The Minister mentioned another figure, but I do not know whether I got it correctly. He estimates a drop in income for the present year of £12,000. Have I got that figure correctly?

Mr. Little

Yes.

Mr. Morrissey

Part of that reduction, I understand, is attributed to a reduction in fees for sponsored programmes.

Mr. Little

Yes.

Mr. Morrissey

Not the whole of it?

Mr. Little

There is very little left of that now.

Mr. Morrissey

In any case we can, I think, safely assume that the Department is correct in its assumption that there will not be any increase in the number of licensed holders during the present financial year. A statement of that kind in a year like this is, I think, a sufficient commentary on the service.

Mr. McCann

I have been criticising this service in public and in private for so many years that I wonder if anything I say now on a war-time Estimate is likely to be of any avail. I am somewhat disturbed by the fact that there is to be a reduction of £800 in the cost of programmes. I think that it was I who first raised the question here last year of authors' fees. There has been some little improvement in the fees that have been paid to authors since last year, but I am not at all satisfied that the present scale of fees is such as will attract the best writers and the best craftsmen to write for the Irish station. You can only get the best by paying for the best. I have based my arguments for increased fees always on the fact that this service is run at a profit. Down the years there has been a surplus. Last year there was something in the neighbourhood of £50,000 of a surplus. Why should that money go into the Central Exchequer when there are writers and artistes generally who are not being adequately paid for their work?

I heard a remark recently in this House to the effect that there was no art in Ireland. Ireland is teeming with art, but there is no respect for art in Ireland. The artiste is supposed to work for the most measly pittance. Art is taken as something incidental. The work of an author in producing a script and getting it printed is not taken into account at all. It is just as if he were only filling in time or filling up columns. I think that a fee of £3 3s. for the copyright of a play that contains something in the neighbourhood of 10,000 words is a miserable remuneration considering that from the worst pulp magazine in any country the author would get at least double that figure for a work of equal length. I have appealed to the Minister on many occasions, and asked him to appeal to the Minister for Finance, because I am told that the Minister for Finance has the last word on all those questions. Why on earth that should be I do not know. I have appealed time and again, and pointed out that the station, to my mind, is not anything like what it should be. There seems to be a looseness there, a lack of businesslike ability, and, above all, a lack of showmanship. The station is just another Department of State, and that should not be. If you want to have successful showmanship—and that is what broadcasting is—then you will have to have showmen behind the business.

The Minister might explain why Radio Eireann charges the advertiser a maximum of £220 per hour and yet can afford the script writer only three guineas for filling that same hour. That sounds incredible, but it is true. The advertisers, I understand, are charged a maximum of £220 per hour on Sunday, going down to a minimum of £1 per minute on other days. Generally, I have always thought that the station under proper direction could do much in this country to co-ordinate musical effort. Every year we have a number of feiseanna throughout the country, and we have a Feis Ceoil here in Dublin. Some wonderful performers are discovered each year. Recently we had Hugh Maguire; I hope that is not the last we are to hear of Hugh Maguire. Every year at the Feis Ceoil I have heard wonderful performers from all over the country, but, as Deputy Morrissey remarked, there is no inducement whatever to bring those performers before the microphone again. They get a ridiculously small fee for travelling from the country, putting up at an hotel over-night and going back again. The whole thing is farcical. From time to time I have despaired about it. It is not an Irish station; it is a Dublin station so far as performers are concerned. I do not like saying this, but from the inception of the station up to the present I have felt that there is a clique around it— that the whole thing is just run for the benefit of a few. I advocated on previous occasions that the station should employ talent scouts. Before the war the B.B.C. thought it worth their while to send men through the Twenty Six Counties looking for talent. I know a number of young writers and performers who got their chance on the B.B.C., due to being actually sought after. They were always anxious to get talent. They looked for it and they paid for it. Unfortunately Irish authors and Irish performers have perforce to go abroad to get anything in the nature of proper recompense for their work. The whole thing is very serious to me. I hope it is equally serious to the Minister. I know a number of people who depend for their livelihood upon their writing and their ability to perform. That is why I have always advocated the setting up of an advisory board, a board composed of people who understand the whole question. I have no fault to find with civil servants. I do not criticise a civil servant because he is a civil servant, or because of red tape, but I do say that behind any service you must have specialised knowledge, and I think there should be a proper advisory committee set up. The Minister promised me last year, when replying, that he would go into the question of setting up a proper advisory board, but so far nothing has been done about it, I am sorry to say.

In conclusion, I should like to refer to the criticism which was levelled at the school programmes here recently. I think that, of all the programmes coming over the air, that particular programme is excellent. The five minutes in English is probably one of the best done scripts that I know. I will not delay the House any longer— I have often delayed the Minister in private—but I would again ask the Minister to go carefully into the whole question.

Mr. P.S. Doyle

Like other speakers who have criticised the programmes of Radio Eireann, I should like to draw the Minister's attention to one particular defect which I am sure has caused complaints from many subscribers. There is a feeling that there is no supervision over programmes which are relayed in connection with concerts. I think that, when arrangements are being made for the relaying of concerts, somebody should be given an opportunity of deciding the types of items which are to be given. I think our listeners are entitled to the best possible talent in that respect. I might particularly refer to a relay which was to have taken place on last Sunday evening. A good many people were very anxious to hear a certain item, but, due to some defect on the stage or wherever the broadcast was taking place, there was no possibility of getting the effects as they should be. I am of opinion—a good many other people have been complaining also— that this very often applies to other relays of concerts. There is no supervision to ensure that proper instructions are given to whoever is broadcasting. Quite a number of people complained to me during the week that they could not hear a particular concert to which they were very anxious to listen. I would ask the Minister to look into the matter, and see that those defects are remedied.

Mr. Allen

There are a few matters to which I wish to direct the Minister's attention. One of the complaints which I have heard is that the news in English at 6.45 in the evening is too early for country people who keep the winter time. They have not come back for their evening meal, so that they have no opportunity of hearing the first evening news. I suggest that 7.30 would be a better time, and would be more satisfactory for the people who live in rural areas. Another complaint is that the news bulletin is almost wholly devoted to war news. We can hear news from half-a-dozen stations, and it is almost the same from each one. If we listen to the German and English stations we hear the same as we get from Radio Eireann. No doubt, you get both sides of the official bulletins from our station, but I do not think the people of the country are so very interested in war news. A great many people say that they get too much war news. I think there ought to be less war news and some more news of local interest which would identify this country as Ireland. This war news might be given out from any country in the world, and is given out from most countries. In our news bulletin there ought to be items concerning our own country, but since the war started we have really got no news at all about our own country. I hope some more time will be devoted to news of Irish interest, instead of having each news bulletin devoted almost entirely to war news.

Deputy Byrne complained that sufficient time was not devoted to broadcasts of soccer matches. I, and, I am sure, many Deputies here, would like to complain that sufficient time is not given to the broadcasting of hurling matches and football matches in the Gaelic code. Many inter-county and inter-provincial matches are not given sufficient time, and I think that 97 per cent. of our people are interested in these matches, while there may be 3 or 4 per cent.—and I doubt if there are as many—interested in soccer matches. I think the big majority should be catered for before the small minority— not that I have any objection to hearing broadcasts of any game. I think, however, that what the big majority are interested in should be given more time than what the small minority are interested in.

Other Deputies have suggested that some time should be given to items of agricultural interest, and I think that is most important. Some time is devoted to matters of horticultural interest on Saturday evening between 5 and 6 o'clock, but the hour is most inappropriate, and it is only people in cities and towns who can listen to these broadcasts.

Mr. D. Morrissey

And very few of them.

Mr. Allen

Probably very few. So far as people living in country areas are concerned, not one in a thousand will listen to them because their radios are not on at that time. Broadcasts on horticulture or agricultural matters should be given at an hour in the evening when people living in the country areas will be in a position to listen to them, and I think that at least twice a week there should be broadcasts on matters of interest to the agricultural community. There are very many items of interest to such people which could be broadcast and our broadcasting station should cater to a greater extent for these people. Listening to the radio, one is struck by the fact that only Dublin city, or certain small urban areas, are being catered for. One has that kind of feeling about it, and people often say that they would not bother to listen to our radio programme because it is so poor. The largest possible sum necessary to provide the best possible programme should be spent, and no expense should be spared. We have other revenue-producing Departments and there is no reason in the world why the radio should be a revenue-producing service. Any revenue got from wireless licences should be devoted to the production of a programme second to none in the world. The Irish people are entitled to that. Our programmes are broadcast all over the world and we are entitled to a programme of which we can be proud, and not to the poor programme which, more often than not, is put across.

I am voicing the opinions of a great number of people who listen to the radio and who are dissatisfied because our programme is not of the standard it should be. Something should be done to set a standard and the Irish people are entitled to have a standard in regard to our radio programmes unequalled by any other radio service in the world. We have plenty of material for the provision of a good programme, and I think we should get it. It is necessary from the national point of view, because it will counteract the foreign broadcasts, and if people cannot get an interesting programme from our radio, they will listen to foreign broadcasts. We heard during the debate on the Education Estimate last week that foreign broadcasts have a bad effect on the Irish language, for instance. People will listen to the station giving the most interesting programme and, for that reason, it is all the more important that our programme should be such as to interest the largest possible number and to keep their interest all the time, and not compel them to listen to foreign broadcasts.

Mr. Cogan

I want to express my alarm at the suggestion made by Deputy Hannigan that the business of this House should be broadcast. If that suggestion were put into effect, I am afraid that some of us who have very little to say would be compelled to remain dumb. Another aspect of the suggestion is that if the business of this House is to be broadcast to any extent, a little more care would require to be taken in regard to the preparation of the agenda, and at a moment when the country is labouring under the shock of a big national tragedy, at least some time should be devoted in the House to a consideration of that tragedy, and of the means of overcoming it. I am not altogether in favour of the suggestion by Deputy Hannigan, and I do not think it would be accepted generally. Although the Minister is a very decent man, and very popular, I am not sure that we could trust him to put this House on the air at the most appropriate times. The broadcast might be made at a time when the standard of debate was very low, or at a time when the level of tempers was too high. I suggest that the Minister should be cautious about adopting this proposal, and even more cautious about adopting the proposal in regard to television. If this House is to be televised——

Mr. Corish

The people will be looking for the air-raid shelters.

Mr. Cogan

——it will be a very serious matter. My suggestion, so far as broadcasting the business of this House is concerned, is that the Minister might be able to find somebody who would be capable of picking out the interesting business and sub-editing it for presentation to the people. That is a suggestion which might be valuable, particularly if the proceedings were broadcast, not as part of the ordinary news, but for a special quarter of an hour or half an hour at some other period of the night.

With regard to propaganda, I agree that there is a great danger in our people paying too much attention to the propaganda of other nations, and particularly of belligerent nations. I suggest that a little more informative propaganda should be broadcast from Radio Eireann in support of our attitude towards international affairs at the moment, that is, the attitude of neutrality.

That attitude should be more thoroughly explained, not only to our own people, but to the people of other countries. It may be said that the propaganda of one set of belligerents cancels that of the other, but the fact of the matter is that the people who sympathise with one of the belligerents will not listen to the propaganda of the other, whereas the Irish people, without exception, will listen to statements on the national position from responsible leaders of opinion in this country, and I think it is desirable that such statements should be made at frequent intervals, so that public opinion might be kept stabilised in support of our position of neutrality in this country.

Mr. Corry

I have only a few remarks to make on this Vote. I agree with Deputy Allen that there is too much in connection with war in the news coming from Radio Eireann. Goodness knows, we hear enough lies from the two sets of belligerents, and I think we should hear more of our own news. I am very much surprised that, in a year like the present, with the emergency conditions which we are undergoing, there is not more time devoted to rural affairs. At least half an hour should be devoted every night—probably from about eight to nine o'clock, when rural families will be at home—to agricultural subjects: advising plotholders how to work their plots and advising farmers, generally, on agricultural subjects and things of that description. Thousands of pounds are spent on advertisements in newspapers in connection with agricultural subjects, which nobody ever reads—in the country, at any rate—but the radio, which is in practically every rural home and turned on at night, is very little used for the purpose of such advertisements. We ought to have enough agricultural officials in this country, goodness knows—and, indeed, we have plenty of good ones, to give them their due, between Glasnevin and the Department of Agriculture—and I think it would be a good thing to get one of these officials to speak on the radio each night, on agricultural matters, for about half an hour. In the first instance, this is an agricultural country; in the second instance, you are going to be short of food; and in the third instance, about three-fourths of our plotholders do not know how to work their plots properly. That is a hard thing to say about an agricultural country, such as ours, but it is a fact none the less, and advice of that description, if it were given over the radio each night, would do a great deal of good. It would be far more useful, and more appreciated by the country in general, than having reports of Deputy Byrne's soccer matches or a full-dress report of Deputy Cogan's speeches in the Dáil.

That is the only matter I wish to refer to, but I think it is something that should be done. Unless something along that line is done there is no use in clapping on news or anything else early in the evening when the agricultural community are out working in the fields. There should be a special programme, from about seven o'clock in the evening until about eleven, for the rural community in particular. The majority of these people do not see a newspaper except on Saturdays, and then they buy it only to get three-ha'pence worth of lies. Surely if these people have gone to the trouble and expense of installing a wireless set in their homes, they ought to get some agricultural instruction from Radio Eireann to help them out in their difficulties. Another thing to which I should like to refer is that when they do start off with the news they start with prices on the Dublin Stock Exchange, which nobody would bother about except a bunch of thieves.

Mr. Davin

They talk about the price of tea.

Mr. Corry

They should give us some information about the price of cattle and things of that kind. It would be better to give more agricultural news. As far as I can see, our nation is catering for a bunch of gamblers around Dublin who draw the money from the country boy. If the Minister does not change his tune in regard to that matter, he will have a bigger deficit next year, because these people will throw their wireless sets out the windows. These wireless sets, of course, bring a certain amount of pleasure into the homes of country people who were lonesome before, but there is very little trouble, or none at all, taken, to give the country people the kind of thing that they require, and if a little of the money that is spent on advertising in the newspapers were to be put into advertising over Radio Eireann, it would have a very good effect, particularly in a period like the present.

Mr. Little

I do not know that I would be able to deal with all the suggestions that have been made this evening, and I think it would be a more satisfactory way of dealing with them if I were to undertake that I will have all the suggestions that have been made very carefully examined. It is very useful and very encouraging to find people taking such a keen interest in the station, and although we might not be able to agree with all the suggestions that have been made, at least we can have them carefully examined with a view to seeing what we can do to meet the various proposals. Deputy Brennan referred to the use of the short-wave station, and being able to vary wave-lengths and so on. It is impossible, really, to give details of how it is proposed to cope with any emergency that may arise, but the Deputy may be assured that every effort will be made to ensure that the broadcasting service will continue to operate under emergency conditions so far as it is physically possible for us to do so with the equipment that we have at our disposal at the present time. Frankly, we are handicapped through the lack of certain equipment which we should like to get. We made great efforts to get it, but so far have not succeeded.

How could we direct the policy of our station on the basis that everybody listens to other stations first? We could not do it.

Mr. Corish

The people want the Irish news first.

If we could manage it, it might be a very good thing, but then there might not be time to deal with agricultural matters to which Deputy Corry referred.

Mr. Corish

Is there any chance of giving Seán O Ceallacháin an extra five minutes on Sunday night so that he would not be so rushed?

Mr. Little

Perhaps Deputies would write in to the station about these matters. I can only make general remarks and say that all these suggestions will be carefully considered. Our aim is that the station should be Irish, and we try to represent every aspect of Irish life, with a good, lively amount of variety as well as educational and also musical items.

Vote put and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 4 Jun 1941