asked the Minister for Supplies if he will state whether, in fixing the price of turf in Dublin under Emergency Powers (Sale of Turf in Dublin City and County) (No. 1) Order, 1941, dated 27th June, 1941, at 46/- per ton (inclusive of the cost of delivery) where it was sold in quantities of one ton or more, he carried out or caused to be carried out any examination to ascertain the price proper to be charged in Dublin for turf, and in particular if he examined (1) the price received per ton by the original producer; (2) the cost of carriage per ton by railway, canal or other transport machinery; (3) the cost of its distribution per ton by Dublin wholesale distributors; (4) the profits per ton of Dublin wholesale distributors; (5) the cost per ton of its retail distribution, and (6) the profits per ton of retail distributors, and if he will state what these various amounts are calculated to be.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Turf Prices in Dublin.
asked the Minister for Supplies if he will state whether, in fixing the price of turf for Dublin under Emergency Powers (Control of Prices) No. 106 Order, 1941, of the 1st November, 1941, at 64/- per ton, he carried out any examination with a view to ascertaining the price proper to be charged in Dublin for turf, and in particular if he examined (1) the price received per ton by the original producer; (2) the cost per ton of carriage by railway, canal or other transport machinery; (3) the cost per ton of its distribution by Dublin wholesale distributors; (4) the profits per ton of Dublin wholesale distributors, and (5) the cost per ton of retail distribution, and (6) the profits per ton of retail distributors, and if he will state what these various amounts are calculated to be.
I propose to answer Question No. 5 and Question No. 6 together. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance fixed the price of turf in the County Borough of Dublin and in the County of Dublin by Emergency Powers (Sale of Turf in Dublin City and County) (No. 1) Order, 1941, on the basis of information supplied to him by my Department and all the factors mentioned in the Deputy's question were fully considered by my Department before advising the Parliamentary Secretary.
The turf which was being marketed by Dublin merchants at the time the order was made was obtained by them from nearby counties at comparatively low freight rates and was not marketed in any considerable quantities, and for this reason a comparison cannot easily be drawn between the conditions prevailing at the time the order was made and present conditions.
In so far as the data is available at the present stage an examination of the whole price structure of turf, in the terms indicated in the Deputy's question has been carried out in my Department. The data available is, however, incomplete and the provision made at each stage in the price structure as well as the final retail price itself can therefore be provisional only.
Turf for the non-turf areas is being procured through Fuel Importers (Eire) Ltd. from sources hitherto untapped, including the supplies made available, through local authorities and is being transported to the non-turf area from remote districts by varying means of transport. For this reason both (1) the cost per ton to the original producer, and (2) the cost per ton for transport, are at present largely matters of estimation.
With regard to points at 3, 4, 5 and 6 of the Deputy's questions, the position is similar as, owing to the circumstances of the times, turf is being distributed in quantities never anticipated and by machinery never intended for this fuel. Consequently the margin between the cost of the turf at Dublin and the price to be paid by consumers, which will be necessary to cover the costs and reasonable profit of distributors, including a provision for shrinkage, which is at present highly speculative, is also a matter of estimation.
Since the primary considerations involved in this question of turf supplies are, firstly, to secure reasonably adequate supplies to consumers and, secondly, to provide these supplies at prices which will ensure distribution, the predominant factor which has determined the retail price of 64/- has been the maximum price which the consumer can, under present circumstances, be asked to pay. The price of the turf delivered to wholesalers and retailers through Fuel Importers (Éire), Ltd., has therefore been so fixed as to provide provisional margins to cover the costs of distribution and profits of these traders, but this price will be subject to revision in the light of additional information which may be acquired.
For the reasons I have stated it is not at present possible to provide accurate and detailed information of the nature requested by the Deputy, but I hope to be in a position to do so at a later date.
Will the Minister take into consideration that when people are asked to pay 64/- a ton in Dublin it is important that we should know where that money is going, first, so that we might see that no party in the country was making an unnecessary profit out of the difficulties; secondly, so that we might estimate the efficiency of the machinery that is dealing with it? Is the Minister aware that, while we cannot compare present days with the original days of the turf scheme, we had it stated here in the House that there was not a single part of the country in which turf could not be sold to the consumers, at fair profit to the producer, to the railway company, and to the retailer, at 24/- a ton? When one sees the difference between the 24/- a ton of those pre-war days and the price now it is terribly important to know where the money is going, as a test of where the profits are being made and as a test of administration. Would the Minister say when he hopes to be able to make a statement to the House that will give some clear idea as to where that 64/- is being distributed?
The information which the Deputy wants is not available. Various estimates as to what the costs will eventually prove to be have been prepared but these estimates may prove in practice to be wrong. One thing that appears reasonably clear is that the price at which Fuel Importers Limited are now selling turf to merchants will result in a loss to Fuel Importers Limited.
If it is possible that the estimates are wrong then it is possible that this 64/- is unjust and wrong.
No.
Surely if the estimates at any particular stage are wrong it is likely that the price which is thus arrived at is wrong, and surely we cannot continue a situation in which either people are making unjust profits or people in Dublin are paying more for turf than they should.
I have explained that the price is not fixed on the basis of the estimate of the cost. If it were, it would be considerably higher than 64/-. The price was based on another consideration altogether, which I explained in my reply to the Deputy.
Is the Minister aware that a short time ago a large turf purchaser in the City of Dublin advertised for and got turf at £1 per ton, on canal bank or road, in Kildare?
That could happen.
Is that person now being allowed to retail that turf at 64/- per ton, thereby getting £2 4s. for distributing the turf, while the cutter only got £1 per ton?
The turf which is being sold in Dublin is being supplied to merchants by Irish Fuel Importers, Ltd. No other turf is allowed into Dublin.
That is not the point. My point is that this person bought a substantial quantity of turf some time ago.
How long ago?
A few months ago. The person in question enjoys an exceptional transport monopoly, as the Minister knows. He paid no higher than £1 per ton for turf on road or on canal bank. Is that person now getting away with 64/- for turf which he bought at 20/-?
I do not know.
If he is, it is a racket.
If the Deputy will supply me with the information—I think he should have done it before this—I will have the matter investigated. The price fixed is the maximum price.
If the Minister will look up the Leinster Leader he will see advertisements offering to pay 20/- per ton for turf. Surely he has sufficient staff in his office to do these things.