Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 May 1942

Vol. 86 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Building Societies Bill, 1942—Committee and Final Stages.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move amendment No. 1:—

To add to the section a new subsection as follows:—

(2) Section 15 of the Principal Act is hereby amended by the deletion of paragraph (5) thereof and the substitution in lieu of that paragraph of the following paragraph, that is to say:—

(5) Every deposit book or acknowledgment or security of any kind given for a deposit or loan by a society shall have printed or written therein or thereon, the whole of the following sections, that is to say: Section 14 of the Building Societies Act, 1874, Section 15 of that Act as amended by the Building Societies Act, 1942, and Section 14 of the Building Societies Act, 1894.

This amendment meets a point contemplated by Deputy Costello in an amendment that he has put down to Section 4. It relates to the printing upon every legal acknowledgment or security of any kind given on a deposit or loan of certain particulars of the state of the law. It is not quite clear that the amendment is necessary, but it is no harm to have the position clarified to meet Deputy Costello's point.

Professor O'Sullivan

What is the difference between this amendment and Deputy Costello's?

Mr. Lemass

There is really no difference.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 2, as amended, and Section 3, agreed to.

Amendment No. 2 not moved.

An Ceann Comhairle

Amendment No. 3 standing in the name of Deputy Costello is out of order as being quite outside the scope of the Bill.

Section 4 and the Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendment.

Mr. Lemass

I presume there will be no objection to completing the passage of this Bill now.

Agreed.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

General MacEoin

The Minister should take note of a few things to which I wish to direct his attention before the Bill passes. All over the country, mushroom building societies have been established and it has been brought to my notice within the past two or three months that, in cases where houses have been built and the Local Government Department has made the appropriate grant, months and months elapse before the member of the society gets credit for the grant. I know two cases in which the money was issued by the Local Government Department as far back as last October and in which it has not yet been brought to the credit of the members in question. The building society in the country is of mushroom growth. It does not build the house at all. A person becomes a member of the society and then proceeds to build a house. The building society makes the application for the grant, but the house is built by the member of the society himself. The society gets a grant of £80 and the member is entitled to from £72 to £75 of that sum. To my own knowledge, some of these societies received the grant last October and have not yet given the member the benefit of it. I think that the Minister should cause stricter supervision to be exercised over the activity of these societies, both rural and urban, but particularly rural. They were organised when Fianna Fáil was in the heyday of its youth and a number of people were anxious to help the Government in their housing plan. At the same time, they were anxious to get an honest penny in an easy way.

Mr. Lemass

This Bill relates only to permanent building societies, of which there are only a few in the country. The matter to which the Deputy refers is one, I think, for the Department of Local Government and Public Health. The societies affected by this Bill make advances to members on the security of house property. As I understand, if a grant is provided by the Local Government Department, it is paid to the member and not to the society. The type of organisation with which this Bill deals is different from that which the Deputy has in mind. There is only a limited number of these societies in existence. They are really banking organisations which take money as an investment from members and lend it to other members on the security of house property.

General MacEoin

Theoretically, they are all supposed to do that. They have all to make returns to the Minister's Department. The societies to which I refer are limited liability companies and are covered by this Bill. They must hold a statutory meeting, present a balance sheet and make a return to the Minister's Department. They are, however, so loosely worked that it is months after a grant is made when it is credited to the member. I do not say that they do not build at all but the amount of building they do is very light. The member of the society does the building but the society gets the money—not the individual. The application is made by the building society and the pay order is issued to it. Then, by agreement, the building society is supposed to pay over to the rural applicant the amount he has received, less a deduction for their costs. Before the Bill passes, I should like the Minister to give an undertaking that there will be stricter supervision of these societies.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister for Industry and Commerce has no responsibility for supervision.

General MacEoin

He has, as Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. Lemass

The supervision of building societies is governed by the law and the registrar has to proceed in accordance with that law.

Question put and agreed to.