Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health. – Dáil Éireann (10th Dáil) – Wednesday, 3 Jun 1942

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £962,958 chun slánuithe na suime is gá, chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1943, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Riaghaltais Aiteamhail agus Sláinte Poiblidhe, ar a n-áirmhítear Deontaisí agus Costaisí eile i dtaobh Tógáil Tithe, Deontaisí d'Udaráis Aitiúla, Ildeontaisí Ilghnéitheacha agus Ildeontaisí gCabhair, agus muirea racha áirithe mar gheall ar Ospidéil.

That a sum not exceeding £962,958 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities, Sundry Miscellaneous Grants and Grants-in-Aid, and certain charges connected with Hospitals.

The Estimate for the Department of Local Government and Public Health in the present financial year makes provision for a total expenditure of £1,461,479, as compared with a gross estimate of £1,359,699 for last year. In 1931-32 the total actual expenditure from the same Vote was £517,517. Of the amount to be provided for the current year, 88 per cent. is in respect of grants for social services. The Dáil, accordingly, may be interested in comparing this year's provision for the more important of these grants with the corresponding figures for the year 1931-32.

Under sub-head J (1), there is provided for child welfare schools for mothers, etc., £26,000 for the current year, compared with £23,133 for 1931/32. Under sub-head J (2), for grants for the supply of milk to necessitous children, there is this year provided £90,000 as against nothing in 1931/32. Under sub-head J (4), for grants towards the supply of assistance in kind to recipients of home assistance, there is asked in the current year £200,000 as against nothing in 1931/32. Under sub-head K, for medical treatment, etc., of school children, there is asked a sum of £33,000 for the current year as against £16,592 for 1931/32. Under sub-head L (1), for grants under the Education (Provision of Meals) Acts, we are asking £27,000 for this year as against £8,019 for 1931/32. Under sub-head L(2) for grants under the School Meals (Gaeltacht) Acts, £10,000 is being asked this year as against £5,169 for 1931-32. Under sub-head M, for the welfare of the blind, we are asking £7,460 this year as against £7,526 for 1931/32. Under sub-head N, for the treatment of tuberculosis, we are asking £161,750 for this year as against £110,483 for 1931/32. Under subheads S (1), and S (2), as a contribution towards loan charges under the Housing Act, 1932, and grants under the Housing Acts, 1931 to 1941, we are asking £664,000 for this year as against £241,994 for 1931/32. For the Acquisition of Land (Allotments) Act, 1934, we are asking £24,500 for this year as against nothing for 1931/32. The total provision, therefore, under all these sub-heads, which is required for 1941/42 is £1,243,710 as against £412,916 for 1931/32.

I should, perhaps, also mention in this connection that, in addition to the social services covered by this Vote, there are very substantial sums provided for like services in the Votes for National Health Insurance and Widows' and Orphans' Pensions, which I shall also move. Including the Supplementary Estimate recently introduced, the total amount asked for these two services is £779,556 as against £309,917 for 1931/32.

To sum up, it may be said that under all the Votes for which the Minister for Local Government and Public Health is responsible, the total amount to be provided this year, mainly to ensure the health and social well-being of the people, is £2,255,266 as against £857,246 in 1931/32.

The increase of £100,089 in the main Vote for this as compared with last year is in the greater part attributable to the provision of grants to public assistance authorities to meet the cost of special food allowances granted to the necessitous poor over and above the amount of assistance which they might normally receive. In view of the charges which are sometimes made, that there has been an undue expenditure on salaries and staffs, it may not be out of place to remark that under this head the present Estimate shows a saving of £1,547 as compared with last year, notwithstanding the fact that the number of demands, of one abnormal kind or another, on the services of the Department, has greatly increased, due to the difficulties created for the community by the emergency.

It has been customary in moving the Estimate for the Department of Local Government and Public Health to review the state of the public health, and on this occasion I propose to follow that course. Any vital statistics for the year 1941 which I may quote, I should emphasise, are as yet provisional and may be subject to some slight modifications or adjustments.

During 1941 the Public Health (Infectious Diseases) Regulations which make certain diseases compulsorily notifiable were amended and extended with a view to securing fuller information regarding the incidence of the various infectious diseases and providing more effective machinery for their control and prevention. The amended regulations were made on the 29th May, 1941, and came into operation on the 1st July last.

The principal infectious diseases which were compulsorily notifiable prior to July, 1941, were typhus, typhoid, scarlet fever, diphtheria and puerperal sepsis. Amongst the principal infectious diseases to which compulsory notification has been extended are cerebro-spinal fever, dysentery, measles, whooping cough and trachoma. The amended regulations also confer increased powers upon medical officers of health in dealing with typhoid carriers employed in any trade or business concerned with the distribution or handling of food or drink for consumption.

As regards the principal infectious diseases which were compulsorily notifiable throughout the whole of the year 1941, viz., typhoid, typhus, scarlet fever, diphtheria, and puerperal fever, there was a decrease in the aggregate mortality as compared with 1940, the total number of deaths in 1941 from these diseases being 261 as compared with 273 in the previous year. During the quinquennial period 1936 to 1940, there was an annual average of 475 deaths, and, as compared with the year 1936, the mortality in 1941 showed a reduction of 62 per cent. The number of cases in 1941 shows a reduction of 50 per cent. when compared with the year 1936.

The number of deaths from all causes registered in 1941 was 43,823, or 1,938 more than in the preceding year. The death rate per 1,000 of the population for 1941 was 14.7 as compared with 14.2 for 1940. The general death rate, of course, is naturally affected by many factors, and consequently fluctuates within fairly wide limits from time to time. For instance, for the ten-year period 1931-40, the lowest rate recorded was 13.2 per 1,000 of population in 1934, while three years afterwards, in 1937, the rate of 15.3 was recorded.

The steps taken in recent years by local authorities to combat diphtheria have been effective in reducing its incidence and the mortality due to that disease. The total number of cases reported for 1941 is 1,447, which is the lowest on record since notification of infectious diseases became fully organised. The peak figure was recorded for 1933, but the incidence as from that year shows an almost continuous decline, the number of cases in 1941 being less by 444 than in 1940, and by 963 when compared with the average annual number for the quinquennial period 1936 to 1940. As compared with the peak figure of 1933, the decrease in 1941 amounted to 57 per cent. The mortality from the disease in 1941 was 163, showing not only a reduction of 15 on the figure for 1940, but a decrease of 41 per cent. on the annual average for the quinquennial period 1936 to 1940, which was 275.

In conjunction with arrangements which were being organised for the evacuation of portion of the population resident in Dublin and Dún Laoghaire in the event of an emergency, special immunisation schemes were carried out in these areas during the months of May and June, 1941. 50,604 children received the full course of two injections and 7,733 attended for one injection. Later in the year as a further protective measure immunisation schemes were carried out in the areas intended for the reception of evacuees. These areas included in whole or in part the countries of Carlow, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laoighis, Leitrim, Longford, Meath, Roscommon, Westmeath, Wexford and Wicklow. So that, over a wide part of the country a general immunisation service has been provided.

Statistics for the incidence of scarlet fever also show a decline. The number of cases notified in 1941 was 2,318 or 147 less than 1940, while the average annual number reported for the quinquennial period 1936 to 1940 was 3,816. The mortality from this disease is comparatively slight, being only about 2 per cent. of the reported cases. The total number of deaths reported in 1941 was 32.

The protection of mothers during and immediately after their confinement has in recent years received considerable attention in conjunction with maternity and child welfare schemes, and it is extremely gratifying that the mortality from puerperal fever has shown a steady decline in recent years. The number of deaths in 1941 was 23, and is the lowest yet recorded, being six less than the number for 1940, and 81 less than the number for 1936.

Measles is an ailment of childhood which is regarded as practically unavoidable, and therefore, unfortunately very often does not receive the attention that it deserves. The death rate from this disease varies considerably. The number of fatal cases in 1941 was 87, being 10 more than the number returned for 1940, but, at the same time, was only one-half the average annual number of deaths for the period 1931 to 1940. Under the amended Public Health Regulations measles is now a notifiable disease, and we may hope that with greater care and attention its menace to child life will be considerably lessened in future.

Whooping cough has usually been regarded in the same light as measles, but it has proved even more dangerous to children. It is also marked by recurrent epidemics. The average annual mortality due to it during the decennial period 1921 to 1930 was 365. In the decennial period 1931 to 1940 this fell to 215, while for the year 1941 the mortality further declined to 145. This disease is also compulsorily notifiable.

The number of deaths from cancer in 1941 was 3,613, which shows a slight decrease as compared with the previous year, when the number was 3,773. The deaths in 1941 are the lowest since 1936. The provisional Cancer Council which was set up to investigate and report on certain aspects of the causes and incidence of the disease has been obliged to suspend operations owing to the difficulties of obtaining information as to the methods, etc., of treatment in other countries.

The incidence of influenza varies considerably from year to year. In 1941 the number of deaths attributed to the disease was 1,321 as compared with 828 in 1940. The most serious outbreak during the past ten years was in 1936, which resulted in 2,772 deaths. The number of admissions to mental hospitals has fallen in the past few years. At the 1st of April the number of patients was 464 less than on the 31st December, 1938, and if allowance were made for the number of mental defectives transferred to one hospital from a county home during that period the reduction would be about 620.

It will be noted that increased provision is made in the Vote for the treatment of tuberculosis, in the mortality from which there was a slight reduction in 1941 as compared with 1940, though the number of deaths was still higher than the number for any of the previous years back to 1935. While mortality, due to tuberculosis, is distressingly high, a considerable improvement has taken place in all age groups over the past 20 years. The analysed figures for 1941 are not yet available; but we have them for 1940. In that year the number of deaths due to pulmonary tuberculosis in the age group under five was 20, as against averages of 66 and 37 per annum for the five-year periods 1924-1928 and 1934-1938, respectively. Thus, in this age group in 1940, there was a decrease in mortality of 70 per cent. as compared with the average over the five-year period 1924-1928. Similarly, in the age group five to 15 years, deaths from pulmonary tuberculosis in the five-year periods 1924-1928 and 1934-1938 averaged 141 and 76, respectively, as compared with 62 in the year 1940, showing a reduction in mortality of 56 per cent. on the average for the five-year period 1924-1928. While we must not accept the figures with any degree of complacency, it is gratifying that they do indicate that there has been a distinct reduction in the mortality from pulmonary tuberculosis during the childhood period. The reduction is more pronounced for the age group under five years and is largely due to child welfare activities, to more active search for child contacts with tuberculous patients, and the early treatment of such cases.

The non-pulmonary form of the disease is more prevalent amongst the younger age groups than is the pulmonary. But even in the case of non-pulmonary tuberculosis the age group under five years shows a decreased mortality, the number of deaths being 140 in 1940, as against an annual average of 216 for the five-year period 1924-1928, and of 163 for the five-year period 1934-1938. For the age group five to 15 years the mortality in 1940 was 143, as against a yearly average of 180 in the five-year period 1924-1928, and of 136 in the five-year period 1934-1938. There are four special institutions with an aggregate of 395 beds for the treatment of sufferers from non-pulmonary tuberculosis, and a considerable number of beds is also available for the treatment of non-pulmonary cases in the general and county hospitals.

The increase in mortality from tuberculosis in 1940 is mainly attributable to the age group 15 to 65 years, and within this age group the heaviest toll is from those sufferers who range between 20 and 35 years of age. It is generally accepted that the incidence of the disease would be considerably reduced if isolation of all infectious cases could be effected; but here the difficulty has to be faced that in general advanced cases are reluctant to go to hospitals far removed from their homes. This aspect of the problem has been mitigated by the establishment in recent years of local sanatoria for the hospitalisation of advanced cases. Prior to 1922, in addition to about 1,200 beds in existing hospitals, there was only one special institution available for advanced cases. There are now local tuberculosis institutions or special bed accommodation in 19 counties and in three county boroughs. The local authorities in the remainder of the counties have been urged to provide similar institutions, but have failed to do so.

The total number of beds in special tuberculosis institutions for advanced and moderately advanced cases is now 634. There are also 119 beds reserved for the purpose in institutions in three other counties. For early treatment of the disease, sanatoria exist at Peamount and Crooksling in County Dublin, at Heatherside, County Cork, and at Newcastle, County Wicklow, in which institutions there is a total of over 800 beds. In addition a considerable number of beds in general county and district hospitals are available for tuberculous patients as and when required.

The provision of further general facilities for the institutional treatment of tuberculosis is unavoidably held up owing to the falling off in receipts from Sweepstakes and the necessity of capitalising the greater proportion of the Hospitals Trust Fund to meet the deficits of voluntary hospitals. Thus, for example, though the establishment of a chest hospital in Dublin remains part of the provisional plan for the better treatment of tuberculosis, it is impossible to hold out any definite prospect of development along these lines at present. This is a position which has been causing myself and my colleague, Dr. Ward, the gravest concern, as indeed has the whole question of the existing arrangements in Dublin for the treatment of the disease. We had the advantage of discussing this matter in January last with representatives of the Irish Academy of Medicine in a way which was both informative and helpful. It was agreed that the present bed accommodation for tuberculous patients in Dublin is inadequate and representations have been made accordingly to the Corporation to provide extended accommodation as quickly as possible. The need for additional institutional accommodation in Dublin is also great, and the scheme for a new sanatorium to meet the needs of the city population is, therefore, being pressed forward with all speed. Furthermore, the Corporation have been asked to submit proposals for improvements to the central tuberculosis dispensary, and to extend arrangements for after-care of patients in their own homes.

One of the matters raised, at our meeting with the representatives of the Academy of Medicine, was the question of compulsory notification. At present, notification is restricted to infective cases. There is a reluctance, a natural reluctance, on the part of persons suffering from the disease to seek medical advice at the outset, and it is feared that this reluctance would be increased if notification were to be made compulsory. With the spread of better knowledge regarding the nature of the disease, however, and the recognition that it can be cured if medical advice and treatment are sought in the early stages, this reluctance is being gradually overcome. It is likely, therefore, that even though it would be very difficult to enforce compulsory notification of all cases of tuberculosis, the same end would be secured by closer co-operation between medical practitioners and the tuberculosis medical staffs of local authorities. In view of the importance of this, from the standpoint of the public health, I confidently hope for such co-operation. Local bodies, in the meantime, are also being pressed to take every available opportunity to let the public know that tuberculosis is curable, especially in its earlier stages, and that facilities for diagnosis and expert medical advice are available free of cost at any of the tuberculosis dispensaries.

Arrangements are being made to open, in Dublin, a clinic for the treatment of rheumatism. The clinic will be under the control of a committee of management, and there will be a medical director in charge. The cost of establishing the clinic is being met out of the Hospitals Trust Fund. The House may be aware that the Hospitals Commission, in their reports, recommended the provision of facilities for the modern treatment of the disease or diseases to which the common name of rheumatism is applied. They also accepted, in principle, a scheme which was placed before the commission by the National Committee Against Rheumatism, and it is upon the Commission's recommendation that the present project is being started. In view of the prevalence of rheumatism, and the economic loss which results to sufferers from it, it is hoped that the Committee, in addition to providing treatment, will undertake investigations into the causes of rheumatism, and that the experience gained in the working of the clinic, and the results of the treatment, will be valuable in formulating the wider measures necessary to combat the disease in other parts of the country.

Early in October, last year, it was noted in the Department that an abnormal number of children's deaths was recorded in Dublin as being due to an outbreak of diarrhoea and enteritis. For the weeks ended 4th and 11th October, 45 and 30 deaths, respectively, were so attributed. A full report as to the probable source of infection and the measures taken to prevent the spread of the disease, was requested from the Dublin Corporation on the 15th October. The reply which was received made it evident that the disease, then epidemic, affected only Dublin City and the surrounding districts, and what was more significant was that it differed in certain respects from summer diarrhoea inasmuch as it was more widespread, and deaths occurred among children of all classes. At the instance of the Department, close examinations were made into the history of the cases treated in the Fever Hospital, Cork Street, and in Vergemount Fever Hospital, but these did not afford evidence of the real cause of the outbreak, or such information as would assist in preventing a recurrence. Accordingly, Dr. Ward, as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, convened a conference, over which he personally presided, of the medical officers and bacteriologists concerned, to consider the whole situation. The Medical Research Council were also invited to send representatives. At the conference a medical committee was formed to examine the position further and to make recommendations to the Medical Research Council, and, as a result, a full investigation is being undertaken forthwith under the direction of the Medical Research Council. The total number of infant deaths in the whole country, in 1941, was 4,123, as compared with 3,759 in 1940. The increase in the number of deaths was mainly due to the peculiar outbreak in Dublin. In the rest of the country there was no marked change in the mortality rate. In the counties, the heaviest infant death rate was recorded in Carlow, with 91 deaths per 1,000 births. In Wicklow, Kildare and Kilkenny the death rates were 85, 83 and 82 per 1,000, respectively, and the counties where the lowest infant death rates were recorded are Roscommon, Mayo and Galway, in which the rates were 36, 41 and 42, respectively, per 1,000 births.

Mr. Hickey

What was the infant death rate in Cork for 1941?

Mr. MacEntee

I cannot give that at the moment.

Mr. Hughes

Was there any particular reason for the high rate in Carlow?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not know of any. Inspections under the School Medical Service schemes now form a normal feature of school life. The volume of work carried out in the past year has been adversely affected owing to restriction of transport; so that the total numbers examined fell from, approximately, 135,000 to 126,000. On the other hand, it is satisfactory that the numbers treated increased in 1940 as compared with 1939. Among the treatments were, approximately, 55,000 for dental defects; 7,000 for tonsils and adenoids; 16,000 for defective vision, and 1,800 for other eye defects. Generally speaking, the numbers treated rose from about 66,700 to 80,000 over the period from 1938 to 1940.

There were 146 maternity and child welfare schemes in operation during the year. Thirty of these were administered by local authorities and 116 by voluntary bodies. The last-mentioned bodies comprise 101 nursing associations, nine institutions and six boarding-out agencies. There are voluntary nursing associations in practically every county, but they are more numerous in the western counties and in Donegal and Dublin, than elsewhere.

The principal maternity and child welfare schemes of local authorities exist in the four county boroughs. In Dublin the scheme is under the control of a whole-time medical officer. He is assisted by a part-time medical officer, two superintendent nurses, and 23 nurses. Clinics, at which a medical officer gives advice and assistance, are held daily at the principal centre in Lord Edward Street, and weekly at nine baby clubs and three outlying centres. The welfare department of St. John Ambulance Brigade, with the help of corporation funds, provide meals for expectant and nursing mothers; and mothers and children in need of treatment are sent to convalescent homes.

Ultra-violet light clinics and dental clinics are also held; in necessitous cases dentures are supplied free or under cost. In Cork City there are three health visitors for home visitation. During 1940, 2,477 cases attended clinics held at the child welfare centre. Expectant mothers receive milk at less than cost price, and tonic foods are provided for nursing mothers. In Limerick there are two health visitors. Milk is supplied free to expectant mothers, tonic foods to nursing mothers, and clinics are held twice weekly. Ultra-violet light clinics are also, held. In Waterford there is one health visitor. Clinics are now held three times a week at the welfare centre.

School meals schemes are in operation in the four county boroughs, 42 urban districts and 8 towns under town commissioners. The latest figures available relate to the financial year ended the 31st March, 1941. The average daily number of children who received school meals was 34,660. The total number of meals supplied was approximately 6,000,000. In addition school meals are also provided in schools in the Gaeltacht. The average daily attendance at these schools was 15,700 and total number of meals provided amounted to 2,710,000.

The new hospitals provided by local bodies since 1933 embrace 13 county hospitals, 17 district hospitals and 8 fever hospitals. Extensions and improvements have also been carried out to 16 mental hospitals. Since the outbreak of the war in Europe, however, it will be appreciated that building work on these hospitals has been confined largely to the completion of contracts entered into prior to that date. Though there were unavoidable delays in getting delivery of materials such as steel piping, copper, electrical conduits and cables, cast iron boilers and radiators, practically all of the works which were in progress have now been completed.

A section of the new regional Galway hospital has recently been placed under contract. The development of the site of the new Cork fever hospital has been completed, and as there are materials available for the laying of foundations, arrangements have been made to proceed with that section of the work. The planning of the new Dublin fever hospital has been settled with the Dublin Fever Hospital Board and final working plans are being prepared. The Corporation of Dublin propose to inaugurate an architectural competition in connection with the planning of the new sanatorium. The schedule of accommodation has been decided upon and the conditions of the competition should shortly be announced.

There was, unfortunately, little change within the past year as regards the four new general hospitals proposed for Dublin. The planning of the new Mater Misericordiæ Hospital and of the new children's hospital at Crumlin is progressing. The amount available for the financing of those and other new hospitals in Dublin cannot, however, be finally decided upon so long as the voluntary hospitals continue to make increasing demands on the Hospitals' Trust Fund to meet expenditure incurred by them in excess of their annual income. In 1941 the total deficits amounted to £173,000 approximately, which was about £16,000 in excess of the total deficits in 1940. It is quite clear that unless this matter of the deficits is tackled with vigour and determination the real purpose of the Hospitals' Trust Fund established by the Public Hospitals Acts will be nullified, and the moneys which were originally provided for and intended to finance hospital reorganisation and reconstruction will be swallowed up in meeting current expenditure which may or may not be wholly unavoidable or justifiable.

It is quite clear that this position cannot be permitted to develop, and that those who are responsible for the management of these hospitals will have to give this matter serious consideration. I may say that it is being very seriously considered in the Department whether we may have to take steps to place upon those who control these organisations responsibility for meeting a large part of their own deficits in future. One thing is quite clear: we cannot allow funds which have been provided primarily for the provision of improved hospital accommodation here to be swallowed up by meeting the running expenses of the established hospitals.

Emergency conditions have necessitated a series of special measures to ensure that hospitals will be adequately stocked with essential medical and surgical supplies, and local authorities have been advised to lay in reserve stocks in all local institutions. As well, instructions have been given to the local authorities to institute a system of regular replacement of drugs from current purchases, and wherever possible to make exchanges between institutions, so that the reserve supplies may be maintained in a good and usable state. While current needs are being met as liberally as possible, present reserves are estimated to meet requirements for a seven to 12-months period. A further reserve of stock of medical and surgical supplies has been placed in selected institutions throughout the country by the Department of Defence. These reserves will remain under the sole control of that Department, as an insurance against possible emergency.

Local authorities have also been advised on matters concerning food production and economy in food, particularly in regard to flour and bread, and it has been suggested to those bodies having control of institutions to which farms and gardens are attached that they should obtain the maximum output from the lands, especially of foods which may be substituted for rationed or scarce commodities.

The schemes for the distribution of free milk to necessitous children under five years of age were continued in all areas with the exception of one urban district. Over 1,000,000 gallons were distributed during the year. The supply of milk of a special designation is encouraged. In Dublin County Borough, where the quantity distributed is about 270,000 gallons in the year, 99 per cent. was highest grade milk. Both highest grade and standard milk are supplied in Dublin County. The milk supplied under the various schemes is supervised by the medical officers of the local authorities and regular inspections of contractors' premises are carried out. Samples of milk are frequently submitted for analysis.

During the year it was necessary to amend in certain respects the Milk and Dairies Act and regulations thereunder. The principal modification was made in order to facilitate the supply of fresh milk in a large number of rural areas. Accordingly, the Act of 1935 was amended by Emergency Powers Order No. 95, to enable milk to be sold for human consumption by non-registered producers and non-registered creameries in such areas on certain specified conditions.

With this exception, the Act and regulations continue to be administered well in most areas. For the present calendar year there has been issued under the Special Designations Regulations 25 producers' licences to sell highest grade milk; nine producers' licences to sell standard milk, 25 pasteurisers' licences, two bottlers' (highest grade) licences and four bottlers' (pasteurisers) licences. During 1941 three licences were revoked and five licences suspended for varying periods. Four of the suspensions were rendered necessary by reason of the fact that licensees' herds had been destroyed under the Foot and Mouth Disease Regulations. Five dairymen discontinued the production of specially designated milk during that year.

Due mainly to the scarcity of essential materials, building operations throughout the year were on a restricted scale. The number of houses built by local authorities for the financial year ended the 31st March last was 3,447, of which 2,303 were built by urban authorities and 1,144 by rural authorities. Approximately one-half of the building in urban areas was in Dublin City, where 1,242 houses were completed during the year. There were under contruction 929 houses and 246 flat dwellings in Dublin at 31st March last.

Tenders obtained by the corporation for further schemes at the end of last year showed a very considerable rise in building costs. It was considered that the advance in price which the new tenders reflected was too great, and I had a discussion with the Master Builders' Association on the general question of Dublin housing contracts and of the increase in building costs. Nothing, however, emerged from the discussion to warrant approval being given to the acceptance of the tenders. The corporation are at present considering a further modification of the general specification and are also examining the possibility of devising some arrangement whereby contractors would be assured of constant supplies of materials during the entire currency of a contract. Economies in the use of timber have already been effected in housing, and approval has been given to an alternative type of house in which a minimum quantity of timber and reinforcement would be required. It is as yet too soon to say whether the experiment will be attended with success.

In Cork a scheme for the erection of 110 houses has been formulated. Development work on the site is proceeding. In Limerick a scheme of 316 houses is in progress. Another scheme for 409 houses has been formulated. In Waterford tenders have been approved and a loan sanctioned for the erection of 22 houses. Schemes for the erection of a further 90 houses have been formulated. The total number of houses in course of construction is 2,087 in urban areas (including county boroughs) and 627 in rural areas.

The number of houses erected with the aid of grants by private persons and public utility societies in the past year was 1,429. In rural areas 21,796 new houses have been erected and 28,602 houses have been reconstructed under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts, 1932 to 1941. The combined efforts of rural local authorities and private persons and public utility societies have resulted in the provision of 41,352 new houses and 28,602 reconstructed dwellings. The total number of houses erected in urban areas by private persons with the aid of grants was 10,901. The number provided by urban authorities and private persons up to 31st March last was 38,815. In all no less than 80,167 new houses have been built and 28,602 existing houses have been reconstructed in rural and urban districts during the past ten years.

During the 1941 season 19,893 allotments were provided for unemployed persons in 87 districts. The average rent for a plot of one-eighth of an acre was 1/- for an unemployed person. Seeds, manures, and implements were again made available free of cost by the Department of Agriculture. 15,479 plots were tilled by persons in receipt of unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit, 824 by persons in receipt of home assistance, 788 by persons employed on relief works, and 2,802 by persons in casual employment with limited means. 3,808 plots were provided for employed persons who were in a position to pay the full economic rent.

As the House is aware, schemes to facilitate the supply of seeds and fertilisers to occupiers or cultivators of land who could not procure them on their own resources were adopted in twenty-six counties in 1941—an increase of six over the previous year. In three counties the arrangements were made by means of county council guarantees.

The total cost of the schemes was £55,503 and the number of recipients was 9,314. There were 3,022 recipients in 1940. In that year the total cost was £17,044 and a sum of £2,834 is still due. All but £78 of the 1939 expenditure has been repaid.

The rate collection in the financial year ended 31st March last was, I am glad to say, substantially better than the preceding year. The percentage of the warrants outstanding at the end of the financial year was 21 per cent. as compared with 29 per cent. at the 31st March, 1941.

It is regrettable, however, that the improvement in the collection of annuities which took place in previous years was not maintained in 1941. On the clearance of the Guarantee Fund in February, 1942, there was a sum of £28,642 absorbed to meet arrears of annuities. Seventeen counties were affected by deductions from grants. In the remaining ten counties the local authorities received their full shares of grants for the year. I come now to the Votes for National Health Insurance and Widows' and Orphans' Pensions.

An Ceann Comhairle

I assume the discussion will range over the three Votes, despite the motion down to refer for reconsideration Vote 41.

Mr. Brennan

I think the usual procedure was that we took the Vote for Widows' and Orphans' Pensions separately. That is my recollection.

An Ceann Comhairle

Procedure will be arranged now.

Mr. MacEntee

It has been usual to take the discussion on the main Vote, and then let the other Votes be put formally. Of course, in this matter I am in the hands of the House.

Mr. Corish

I think it would be as well to allow the Minister to proceed.

Mr. Brennan

I have no objection.

An Ceann Comhairle

Discussion to cover all the Local Government group.

Mr. MacEntee

The main Estimate for National Health Insurance asks for a sum of £305,667. In addition, under the Supplementary Estimate recently introduced, a further sum of £23,889 is required. The total requirement for the year is, therefore, £329,556. The Supplementary Estimate is required for the operation of a scheme, under the Act amending the financial structure of the national health insurance system, which is being prepared and which will utilise the moneys which have been set free for the payment of additional benefits. The House will remember that this Act became law just a few weeks ago.

The number of insured persons in receipt of sickness and disablement benefits at 31st December, 1941, was 25,678, which was approximately the weekly average throughout the year. During the year the number of separate benefit payments, including sickness, disablement, maternity and marriage, amounted to 1,150,832, and the cost of these benefits was £686,000, a decrease of £9,000 on the corresponding figure for the previous years. Maternity benefit was paid in respect of 25,291 confinements.

During the year it was unfortunately necessary to bring legal proceedings in 683 cases against employers who had failed to comply with the provisions of the Acts as regards payment of contributions. I would like again, in this connection, to remind employers that default of this kind often leads to loss of benefits to insured people and of contributory pensions to the widows and orphans of deceased insured men. Wherever possible, such losses are recovered from employers, and during last year a sum of £379 was so recovered.

Under the provisions of the new Act, the society have submitted a scheme providing for the expenditure yearly of £175,000—the sum determined by me under Section 3 (1) of the Act—in the provision of additional benefits. The scheme is now under examination in the Department.

As regards widows' and orphans' pensions, the sum now asked for is to complete the annual amount of £450,000 for the requirements of that service for the current financial year.

The number of claims for pensions received during the year 1941 was nearly 2 per cent. less than for the year 1940, being 4,794 for 1941 and 4,873 for 1940. The claims for widows' pensions decreased by nearly 2 per cent. from 4,569 received during 1940 to 4,480 received during 1941. On the other hand, the number of claims for orphans' pensions increased by 3 per cent., being 304 for the year 1940 and 314 for the year 1941.

The number of beneficiaries in respect of whom pensions or allowances were payable at the 31st December, 1941, was 58,098, consisting of 34,259 widows, 21,977 dependent children of widows, and 1,862 orphans. The corresponding figures at the 31st December, 1940, were 33,542 widows, 21,775 dependent children of widows, and 1,747 orphans—total 57,064. In the 12 months ended the 31st December, 1941, the number of beneficiaries increased by 1,034, or 1.81 per cent.

Mr. Corish

On behalf of the Labour Party, I move:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

What principally concerns me is the growing tendency in the Department to interfere unduly with local authorities. Gradually the Minister and the Department have been sapping any discretion which hitherto was accorded local authorities. Within recent months the Government have unduly interfered with a large number of local authorities.

When in opposition here, Fianna Fáil, in season and out of season, condemned the Cosgrave Government because of the tendency of the Department of Local Government to abolish local authorities which displeased that Government, as they said, for the time being. Fianna Fáil were opposed to commissioners and managers. They resisted the extension of the managerial system to Cork and Dublin, and I think it could be said that they were 100 per cent. champions of control of local administration by publicly elected representatives. In the ten years of Fianna Fáil government they have abolished 31 local authorities, county councils, boards of health, town commissioners, urban councils, mental hospital committees, etc. Inquiries into local administration are invariably followed by suppression or abolition of the local authority. The technique of the inquiries is well known. The Minister sends down one of his inspectors to hold the inquiry. In a great many cases the council is not told beforehand what the inquiry is supposed to be about, so that the particular local body is not in a position, prior to the inquiry, to prepare anything to rebut the charges made by the Minister. I have known cases where the inspectors who held the inquiry made the charges beforehand.

I think it would be admitted that that system is entirely wrong and that an independent person, apart from an inspector who has been operating in the area in which an inquiry is held, should be appointed to hold an inquiry of that kind. When the inquiry is over, it is part of the technique that the report is never submitted to the local authority. Usually, the first the local authority hears about it is when there is an announcement made on the radio that that particular local authority has been abolished. One would expect, as a matter of courtesy, that before the local authority is abolished, if there is reason for its abolition, the findings of the inquiry should be placed before it. That has not been done. It is true that excerpts from the report are usually circulated by the Minister, but the particular excerpts that are circulated are usually biassed and sent, in my opinion, in a mysterious manner. Such excerpts are sent out as would permit of an inference being drawn by the ratepayers in that particular district that the local authority had been behaving in a manner not in the best interests of the ratepayers and that the particular local authority concerned was a cesspool of iniquity.

The abolition of a local authority is usually followed by the appointment of a salaried commissioner. These commissioners, once they take office, become dictators in administering affairs in the particular area to which they are appointed. Their salaries are borne by the ratepayers. Their salaries are handsome ones and, in my opinion, out of all proportion to the work that they are called upon to do. It will be remembered, of course, that the people whom they displace do all this work without fee or reward of any kind. Princely salaries have been paid to men who, in my opinion, knew nothing whatever about the administration of local affairs. At the present time there is a gentleman, who for a time was private secretary to the Minister for Local Government, administering the affairs of the Dublin County Council at a salary of £1,200 a year. It is an extraordinary thing to me that when a proposal is put up to the Minister to increase workers' wages by a few shillings a week he refuses sanction. This man was put in at a salary of £1,200 a year and that amount is over and above the amount paid to the officials already employed by the urban council or the county council, as the case may be. There is a commissioner administering the affairs of Kilkenny and Waterford, at £1,200 a year. I am one of those who always advocate that a decent salary and wage should be paid to people, but I think that, in cases like these, when the ratepayers are called upon to pay such a large amount, they should have some say in the appointment. It is absurd to say that any of the commissioners who were appointed are doing their work more efficiently than the representatives of the people who were elected by the people.

The Minister for Local Government and Public Health and his Department have set the pace in reducing wage levels in the country. In 1939, at the outbreak of the war, the Minister took a decision to prohibit the payment of wage increases to the lower grade employees of local authorities. When the war broke out, and when they saw the cost of living was rising to such an extent that, in all fairness, they should give their employees an increase in wages, various councils granted certain sums, but the Minister sent out a circular letter forbidding any increases to be given to employees of local authorities. Since then, the cost of foodstuffs has risen enormously, and yet the Minister has not changed his policy. In recent months, county councils all over the country have again unanimously agreed to concede increases in wages to their employees, and the Minister has not yet agreed to sanction the increases that have been agreed upon. The Minister knows as well as I do that the county councils in the main are manned by farmers. We know that farmers are a very conservative body, and that they would be reluctant to concede increases in wages to workers employed by the county councils unless, in their opinion, there was absolute necessity for them. In all the cases that I have seen, they have unanimously agreed to increase the wages of road workers. I think the first of those applications for sanction was made by councils as far back as three months ago, and the Minister has not yet agreed to sanction or otherwise those increases.

Before the war, when proposals of that kind were made, the Minister had an excuse that it was not advisable to have a road worker paid more than an agricultural labourer. The position is reversed at the present moment because in most counties the agricultural labourer is getting at least 3/- per week more than the road workers are paid by county councils. I cannot understand the Minister's reluctance in this matter. It is to be hoped that when he is concluding this debate he will give us some idea as to what his policy is with regard to wages. Proposals have been put up to the Minister by councils as to the payment of men who have to be absent from work owing to a family bereavement. On March 4th of this year the Corporation of Sligo adopted a resolution that the council were of the opinion that payment should be made to all corporation staff employees where it was found that a mother or a father, sister, brother or wife of a member of the staff was bereaved, and that copies of the resolution be sent to the members of the Dáil. The Minister has refused to sanction that proposal. I would like to ask the Minister what is the difference between an official and an ordinary worker in a case of that kind? If there is a bereavement in an official's family he can stay out for a day or two and there is no cut in his salary, but when an ordinary working man has to stay out because of a family bereavement, the Minister will not agree to sanction a proposal made by the local authority that that man should have his wages paid to him during that period. I would like the Minister to tell us why he discriminates in that connection.

The Minister in the course of his statement mentioned the matter of housing. He has pointed out that, because of certain difficulties, it is not possible to build houses at the rate at which they were built during recent years. I think he said it was due to the fact that materials are scarce. That may be the reason to some extent, but the principal reason is the cost of these materials and the fact that the Minister refuses to come to the aid of local authorities who are anxious to proceed with the building of houses.

The Minister for Finance and the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures, on two different occasions recently, stated that it was the policy and the wish of the Government that the building of houses should be proceeded with, even at present with the difficulties which exist. It is impossible for a local authority to build houses at the moment and to let them at anything like a rent which the people would be able to meet. A house which cost £350 in 1938 or 1939 costs £550 to-day. The subsidy given by the Government is payable only on houses up to £350, so that the difference must be shared between the tenant and the local authority. Local authorities have had a great many calls on them during recent years and it is impossible for them to bear any further burdens. Repeatedly, the Minister's Department has been requested to ask the Minister for Finance to increase the subsidy, so that these houses might be built, because even though the large number of houses to which the Minister referred have been built, there are still thousands of houses required in different parts of the country, and, unless something is done soon, the problem will have become very acute when the war is finished. As a matter of fact, I think the same problem will face us at the end of this war as faced us at the end of the last war.

I do not know whether the question of the appointment of doctors in dispensary areas comes under the Minister's purview or not. I suppose that, primarily, it is a matter for the Local Appointments Commission, but I think the Local Government Department ought to have something to say about it. There is a tendency amongst doctors at present, and especially young doctors, to go before the Appointments Commission to secure a dispensary district, and then to make application to the local authority concerned for permission to put a "locum" in their place for some time. I have known two or three cases in which that was done. The "locum" was put in for two or three months, and during that period the doctor who had secured the position made application for a transfer to another area, and never took up the position in the dispensary area to which he was appointed. That may be a good thing for the doctor concerned, but I suggest it is very bad for the people who are dependent on the dispensary in the particular area. It has become a common practice amongst doctors appointed to dispensary areas, and I think there should be some stipulation, when a man is appointed to a position, that he should take up that position, for a certain time, at any rate. There have been two such cases in County Wexford recently. During the period when the doctor appointed should have taken up the position, two or three "locums" were engaged, and the result was that the people in the area did not get the attention to which they are entitled under the Local Government Act.

Some time ago, the Council of Municipal Councils interviewed the Minister on various matters, and particularly in relation to the question of travelling allowances for members of local authorities attending conferences. The result of that interview was that the Minister sent back word that he was prepared to sanction only a subsistence allowance of 7/- per day. I cannot understand how the Minister arrived at such a figure, or how he could suggest that a person who has to travel to Dublin, or to any other part of Ireland, should be expected to be able to pay his way on 7/- per day. Some people might be able to do it—men of independent means—but if this is persisted in, it will prevent any Labour representatives, who are working day after day, from attending any of these conferences. It will have the effect of entirely cutting out Labour representation, because the man who is working and who has to get a day off to attend any of these conferences will be at the loss of his day's pay, and surely it is not suggested that 7/- would compensate such a man, in view of the fact that he has to pay for his keep while in Dublin, or in whatever place the conference is held. I ask the Minister again to consider that position, even if he has to make a differentiation between the man who is working and the man of independent means who is a member of a local authority and who has to attend these various conferences. I think the cases I have cited are sufficient to warrant my moving that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

Mr. Pattison

I desire to second the motion that the Estimate be referred back. In doing so, I want to say that I am very disappointed with the general statement made by the Minister. The Minister has filled other offices in the Government. He was Minister for Finance at some period, and also Minister for Industry and Commerce, and I think he has been more disappointing as Minister for Local Government than he was as Minister for Finance or Minister for Industry and Commerce. The sooner the Cabinet meets and decides to give him another change, the better for local government. The Minister, in this House, at any rate, has always shown a disposition to become annoyed very easily. I remember well his behaviour during the discussion of the Trade Union Act, when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy had better leave the Trade Union Act out of it.

An Ceann Comhairle

He was not then the Minister responsible for local government. This is the Vote for the Department of Local Government.

Mr. Pattison

I am making just that reference to the Minister's attitude.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

I wanted to avail of this opportunity to make particular reference to the treatment meted out by the present Minister to Kilkenny City. Of course, I am not placing all the responsibility on the Minister. The Minister has collective responsibility, and all his colleagues in the Cabinet are at least equally responsible. One of the representatives for Kilkenny is a Cabinet Minister, and we shall be looking forward anxiously in the near future to see what the Minister's decision will be on the historic and hard-working record of the Kilkenny Corporation.

Mr. Brennan

I am sorry that the Minister did not introduce his Estimate in Irish, because if he had, we would all have got a copy of the translation and be in a better position to discuss the various items which he mentioned. As a matter of fact, the Minister's introduction of this Estimate, naturally, contains a lot of figures, and I think it would be advisable if members of the House, or some members at least, were supplied with a copy of the Minister's speech. I was very anxious to follow the Minister's statement on disease, but I know that I found it very hard to follow or carry in my head all the figures he gave relating to disease and the expenditure connected with it. The Minister's speech was not so very satisfactory. I am talking now about diseases. After all, we must regard the Department of Local Government and Public Health as the Department that is in closest touch with the people, with their health and welfare, and when you have a report presented, such as we have had to-day, which shows that the white plague or white scourge of T.B. is still making inroads—in fact, I am afraid it is making more inroads year by year—it is very discouraging, indeed. Last year, when speaking on this particular matter, I remember that I drew the attention of the then Minister to the fact that it was my opinion that an effort was not being made, a real, genuine effort, to check the inroads of tuberculosis. The Minister, in referring to the matter a while ago, gave certain figures with regard to sanatoria and the number of beds that were available in various sanatoria in the country. He also mentioned that special beds were available in county and district hospitals for the treatment of tuberculosis, but one thing he did not tell us was that in the majority of hospitals in this country, the tuberculosis patients are side by side with other patients, and there is no other accommodation for them. That is my experience.

But one of your own selection?

Mr. Brennan

I agree, but subject to the approval of the Department's experts. May I say that I have very grave doubt about them in that particular matter? The fact that a hospital was erected without having complete arrangements in it was not, by any means, the fault of the ten lay men who formed the board of health. I suggest that the fault lay with the Minister's technical advisers. What is happening is that prominent architects are erecting, at the public expense, very fine hospitals indeed. With regard to appearance and construction they cannot be beaten, but with regard to accommodation the position is otherwise. They are lovely hospitals and they are monuments to the men who designed them. In my opinion there was not a single expert in the Department of Local Government who had either the guts or the knowledge to criticise any of these schemes when they went up.

Deputy Corish and Deputy Pattison referred to the abolition of local authorities. I have a list here which justifies the charges they have made. The list, which was given in reply to a question by Deputy Mulcahy, sets out the date of their removal from office. Four of those bodies were dissolved by the Fianna Fáil body after it came into office—four county councils— because, apparently, they had the temerity to protest against the economic war. They were wiped out in 1934 before the local elections took place, so that the people in those counties were not given the opportunity that people in other areas had of electing new councils. They were deprived of that opportunity. Now, there may be good reason for dissolving a local authority, but there is no reason in the world why the people in these areas should not be given the same opportunity as that given to people in other areas—of electing a new council when the local elections took place. No one can stand over that. The only redeeming feature about the abolition of local councils is that it is the only time when the Minister comes to life, but he does come to life pretty quickly then.

I know that the local authorities have been bombarding the Department with correspondence month after month, and they cannot get a reply or get anything done. The Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will recollect that in Roscommon we have a very fine new hospital indeed.

The surgical wing of the hospital was opened some time about Christmas last. The hospital was built to accommodate something under 100 patients, half-surgical and half-medical. A surgeon had been appointed for some time, and he went into occupation on the surgical side last Christmas. Since then we have been endeavouring to get the consent of the Local Government Department to the appointment of a medical man, so as to have the rest of the hospital opened. That has not been done yet. Not alone that, but months ago they asked us to put up a scheme whereby we would get a man to fill the medical side. We put up a scheme, and that scheme was turned down by the Department. With the letter refusing sanction to our scheme was a proposal from the Department itself, and they said that this was the type of scheme they would sanction. It was evident from the beginning that the Department had settled in their own minds the kind of scheme that was to be put in operation in Roscommon. There was no point, therefore, in asking us for our opinion, as they are not going to act upon it.

We interviewed the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary afterwards and they were very sympathetic, but they would not move an inch. They did not see any reason why Roscommon should be treated differently from other counties. They may have been right in that. I am not convinced that they were right. If I were to give this House the details of the scheme which we wanted to put into operation and the scheme which the Department wanted, I have no doubt as to which way the verdict would be. I am sure that on a free vote of the House it would be on our side. Then we put up another scheme but they would not have that either. Months ago they wrote that they hoped the board of health would agree to their scheme as they were anxious to have the position filled by the Local Appointments Commission. We agreed immediately as we saw there was no use in prolonging the agony. That was months ago, but nothing has happened since. Between the Local Appointments Commission and the two gentlemen sitting on the Front Bench we have not had a doctor appointed yet and no advertisement has been issued. Half of the hospital is still unoccupied. On their recommendation, we appointed a complete staff of nurses some months ago. But the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary are still considering, not our scheme, but their own scheme. I do not know whether the matter has been submitted to the Local Appointments Commission. I do not know where the delay has occurred, but the position is that half the hospital is occupied and half vacant. Recently the surgeon had so many cases that he had to extend over to the medical side. That side of the hospital is fully furnished and equipped, but we have no medical man. I wonder who is to blame for that. Is it the Roscommon Board of Health or the two gentlemen over there, or is it the Local Appointments Commission?

But if you want to see the Department come to life, let them hold an inquiry down the country into the affairs of any local authority and the local authority will be abolished the day after. That is the only time you can put life into them. Personally, I think that if any body in this country needs to be reorganised it is the Local Government Department. Even if I go down to the Local Government Department I cannot find anybody whom I can charge with neglecting our business. I will be shifted as politely as possible from one to another. I should like to make a suggestion to the Minister. I should like to see in the Local Government Department some senior official allocated to every county in Ireland to see that the business of that county is done promptly. I am not suggesting that one official, whether senior or otherwise, should have the right to make decisions, but I am suggesting that there ought to be responsibility put on some one person to see that the affairs of Roscommon are carried out promptly, that the affairs of Kilkenny are carried out promptly, and so on. What is everybody's business is nobody's business and it is not done. The Minister referred to the rate collection and said it was more satisfactory than it was last year, but he regretted that the collection of annuities was not as good as last year. I am sure the Minister knows the reason.

Mr. MacEntee

I am assuming the reason.

Mr. Brennan

It is a pity that the Minister did not state what the cause was, because at one time in this House there was a kind of insinuation that farmers were dishonest. They were never dishonest; they always paid their way when they were able. If the Minister will throw his mind back he will remember that from February to November last there was not a four-footed beast sold in this country except what was sold locally. Men who had plenty of live stock had not a penny in the month of June to pay their annuities.

Mr. MacEntee

There is no suggestion that the annuities are being wilfully and deliberately withheld.

Mr. Brennan

I agree. But when the Minister informs the House that a thing like that has happened, he ought to give the reason for it, because people will be drawing their own conclusions, and may feel that there is creeping into this country a type of dishonesty, if you like, a feeling that the people will not pay. They will pay. There was very good reason for the non-payment. I am sure that the matter was very badly handled by the Government. There was no cognisance taken of the fact that the people were not in a position to pay. The warrants were sent down to the sheriff, and costs were put on the people who had not the money to pay. They were auxious to pay, but they had not the money.

The Minister also referred to the increase in the Estimate and explained how that happened. He made certain comparisons between 1942 and 1932 and pointed out that the increases were largely due to increased grants for various necessitous people in this country. That is true, and it is a rather sad commentary on the prosperity which the Minister and his Party promised us when they were coming in. When they sought the votes of the people to put them into power, they never prophesied that it would be necessary to do anything like that. We were then told that there would be work for all, full and plenty for all.

Let me point out to the Minister that when it is such a very desirable thing that the poor would be helped in every way and that the widows and orphans would be helped, there must be some other way of bringing prosperity to the country besides subsidies and grants. That money would not be required if the people of this country had work. Unfortunately, they have not. The Minister, when he was on this side of the House, thought that that problem would present very little difficulty. Perhaps it is for the country's good, for the good of everybody, that he is a wiser man to-day. We all become wiser as we go along. The fact that those grants have to be increased is not very creditable; it is certainly not creditable to a native Government that we have to do that in the 20th century.

The Minister informed the House that the erection of houses would be a small matter under present conditions. We had evidence of that the other day when the Minister brought in a Housing Bill in which the amount allowed for housing in the coming year is very small. What is the function of the Housing Board under those conditions? Every year I have been wondering what the Housing Board has been doing and I have always been left wondering. I have never heard anything as to what the members were doing. There is a chairman and two members, costing £2,000 per annum. Apparently, one of the members is either dead or has left. I do not know what the members of that board are doing, and perhaps the Minister will enlighten me.

With regard to sub-head Q, for grants in respect of the training of native Irish speakers in hospital nursing, I should like to know what that means. If it means the training of girls from the Gaeltacht who are not otherwise able to get the training, then I could understand it, but am I to take it that any person from the Gaeltacht, or any person who is a native speaker, let that person be from Dublin if you like, no matter what her income may be is entitled to take advantage of that? What is the position? Nowadays, various people may be able to claim to be native speakers and, if they are, I should like to know how that particular sub-head is going to operate.

There is another matter which has been troubling me. Since the Minister and his Party insisted upon the Party system in local authorities in this country, local administration has not improved. The Minister's predecessors insisted in this House that it was much the better way to run local authorities. It is not, and that has been proved. We were much better off before the Party system was introduced and local administration was carried out more efficiently. We have had a clear-cut line for some years past and it has not helped us and, from the facility with which the Minister can dissolve local authorities at the present time, it does not seem that he is impressed with it.

On the whole, I consider that, in the Department af Local Government and Public Health, it is absolutely essential that the strictest attention should be paid to the views expressed by the people down the country. The Minister and his advisers in the Custom House, with all due respect to them, have not the same grasp of matters in the South or West of Ireland as the people there have. I have evidence of that from day to day. It may be necessary that the Minister would consider all matters, but I object to the type of wooden-headedness which we have in the Department. It does not matter whether your suggestion is good, bad or indifferent; if you come from the country the Departmental view will overrule yours. That is not good and it is not satisfactory. Where a local authority makes a proposal which is within the law, and to which there cannot be any serious objection, the Minister ought to see that that proposal should be allowed to follow its course. Above all else, the Minister, who is new to this Department—I do not know in what way the other Departments with which he was connected, operated; I do not know how they were organised —should see that in the Local Government Department, where he now has an opportunity of doing it, some effort will be made to reorganise the machinery. It will have to be done at some time.

Where local authorities are waiting for one, two or three months for a reply to a simple matter, you are bound to have a type of administration that is not good for anybody. Things ought to be dealt with promptly, but they are not; they are neglected, and the worst of it is that you cannot lay your finger on the person responsible. I suggest the Minister should allocate some officer to every administrative county in the State, some officer who will see that the minutes of the board of health and of the county council of his particular county will be looked after and presented to the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary in due time, and that decisions are promptly given. Unless you get something like that, you will have these dissolutions of local authorities. It is no wonder they are being dissolved and are losing heart in trying to carry on administration, because they are getting no assistance from the Department. In fact, the Department is mostly a hindrance. Do you think you ever could get advice from the Department? Nobody has ever got advice from it yet. If they want to dissolve a council, they tell the council members that they had better go, but they will not advise them. Something ought to be done in that direction.

What I have said, I have said in a true spirit of construction. I would like the Local Government Department to be the best machine in this country. It is not at the moment. Somebody is letting down on his job. It is not for want of officials. There are plenty of them. The Book of Estimates discloses that there has been an increase of officials year after year. Work probably has increased. We have not increased geographically. Our population has not increased. My opinion is that there is not in that Department the machine required to carry out its work promptly. I hope the Minister will try to have that provided. If it is not provided, he cannot expect local authorities to carry on with any kind of enthusiasm for their work.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

I rise, not to support the motion to refer this Estimate back, but rather to congratulate the Minister and his Department on the very good work they have done for the ordinary people of this country. I look upon the Minister for Local Government, if I may so put it, not only as the dutiful father, but as the loving mother, of the national family. He has a responsibility for all of us, even before we reach the cradle until we reach the grave.

The Minister's figures here this evening are ample proof of the efficient and benevolent administration of local government. Incontrovertible facts have been quoted by the Minister. I feel, as one who has some responsibility as a local administrator, that I may be regarded as being in charge of a section of the national family. There are many others in this House who are in charge of sections of the national family. Like all other families, we may play truant at times, but as our needs arise, we return to the fond parent.

Many faults have been found with the Minister and possibly there are some things that could be improved. I wish to draw the Minister's attention to a few matters concerning his Department. One of these is in connection with a piece of legislation which passed through this House very recently, that is, the Local Government Act. We are all aware of the provisions in that Act, in Section 35, whereby public representatives who fail to pay their rates are automatically disqualified. With that principle I am in full agreement. I would like to avail of this opportunity to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that representatives of public bodies can equally commit themselves and escape the dire penalties which are attached to the non-payment of rates. I would remind the Minister that rents or other commitments may be due to a public body by public representatives. Quite recently, in the council that I have the honour to preside over, we found ourselves in the unpleasant position of being obliged to suspend some very honourable old members for the reason that they overlooked paying their rates within a few days, while sitting at the same table were men who owed exactly ten times the amount in rent and other commitments whom we had no power to suspend. If democratic local administration is to be equitable——

General MacEoin

Sack them all.

Mr. Walsh

——the Minister should take steps to amend the Local Government Act and to set right the discrepancies which unquestionably are contained in it.

There is another matter. I agree with Deputy Corish when he complains in regard to the subsistence allowance which the Minister has sanctioned for representatives of the Municipal Authorities' Association when called upon to attend meetings of the Executive Committee or conferences in any part of the State. I would like to know if the officials of Local Government would travel from the City of Dublin to Cork on 7/- a day. I maintain that I, as a public representative, am entitled to the same allowance that any official of the Department of Local Government would receive when travelling to any part of the State. I am thoroughly in agreement with Deputy Corish in drawing the Minister's attention to this scanty allowance which he has decided to allow—7/- a day—no matter to what part of the State he is called upon to travel. Either the Executive Committee of the Municipal Authorities' Association is worthy of existence or it is not and, if it is not, the Minister should take steps to abolish it and save the ratepayers the cost of its maintenance. Otherwise, he should treat the representatives of that body in the same way as the officials of local government and other public institutions are treated.

There was another matter referred to by Deputy Pattison, that is, the suspension of the Kilkenny Corporation. I happened to read this morning some comments as a result of the Local Government's inspector's investigations down there and I candidly admit here that it is not a credit to the public representatives of Kilkenny City if they, as the elected representatives of the people, simply say to an official: "We will give you 20/- in the £ to run this town and make the best job you can of it." I submit that that is not the function of a town clerk or any public official. The duty for which public representatives are elected to the public boards of this country is to investigate the various services and see which one we would eliminate, if elimination is necessary in the interests of economy. If the Kilkenny Corporation had done their duty as I feel they should have done it, unless I am misled by the public Press statement, there cannot be very much sympathy with the body that has been abolished.

General MacEoin

Has it been abolished?

Mr. Walsh

Or that is under threat of being abolished. That brings me to another point with regard to the auditing of local bodies' affairs. We had a state of affairs in the town that I represent that I am satisfied would be a case for abolishing the Drogheda Corporation had we not taken steps and were it not for the energetic action of half-a-dozen public representatives who took the matter in hands and cleared up a dirty mess. It is possible we may go yet, but if we do go, there will be a reason given and we will know why we have to go before we do go. I wish to appeal to the Minister for Local Government to give us permission to appoint our own chartered accountants annually to look after our affairs. If we got permission to do that, and not be left for three or four years before we get a visit from a Local Government auditor, things would be much more satisfactory and much more efficiently administered in the public bodies.

Mr. Murphy

I think there is a widespread acceptance of the fact in this country now that the members of the Government are growing weary and tired and more Tory-like each day that passes. I think definite evidence of that fact can be found quite easily when one examines the so-called policy of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. The Minister's statement here this evening was remarkable for very many omissions. He was strangely silent on this question of the slaughter of local authorities in this country, and I make no apology for returning again to that subject, which has been dealt with by previous speakers. In spite of the testimonial to which we have listened from Deputy Walsh, I think the people of the country will want a much more elaborate explanation of the Minister's policy in this respect than Deputy Walsh has given us here this evening.

It is no harm to emphasise the fact that when the Local Government Act was passed in 1898, it was regarded as the greatest instalment of liberty and freedom that could be given to this country short of self-government itself. Men distinguished in name and reputation who represented this country in another place hailed that measure as such, and it cannot too often be emphasised that it was two successive Irish Governments, but more notably the present Government, which thought fit to destroy that structure, built up over a number of years, and replace it with the kind of make-believe local government which exists in many parts of this country to-day. The Minister recently piloted through this House an amendment of the County Management Act. One of the provisions of that measure is to make sure that some of his representatives who control certain areas in substitution for the local authorities which have been abolished, will have fixity of tenure in future, and one wonders whether that was not the main purpose of this recent amendment of that Act: so that security and fixity of tenure, and generous—one might even say extravagant—remuneration, in contrast with that granted or refused in the case of workers employed by local authorities, should be provided for such officials in future.

I am also surprised that we heard little from the Minister this evening on this monstrosity which has been euphemistically described as the managerial system. It is at present in a state of suspense, like Mahomet's coffin, and the Minister might have given the House and the curious public some indication of what is proposed in regard to this system in future. It does not need very much sagacity to come to the conclusion that the system is doomed and that the whole system of the destruction of local authorities, in respect of which the Minister is judge, jury and executioner, and in respect of which one of his officials hears evidence and reports to the Minister, the report not being given publicity afterwards, betrays the complete lack of touch of the Minister and the Department generally with local affairs, and a growing irritation and impatience with the kind of criticism which members of local authorities in many places have felt it their duty to make over recent months and over the past few years.

Reference has been made to the road workers. As a representative from County Cork, the county council of which was, I think, the first body to take steps to grant a modest increase to the road workers over 12 months ago, I want to make an objection to the manner in which the decision of the county council was received by the Department and rejected. All Parties in that council, even the most ardent advocates of economy in local affairs, signified their viewpoint that the increase suggested was a very modest one, in all the circumstances. The proposal was rejected. It was renewed after a period of several months, and a similar rejection followed.

The Chairman of the Cork County Council is a very well-known member of this House, and I want to reiterate his statement that the wage in County Cork, having regard to the uncertainty of employment there and the comparatively short period worked by the road workers during the year, did not on the average exceed 24/- a week. The Minister, pretty well remunerated himself and surrounded by people who are all very well remunerated, has taken up the attitude that the workers in Cork County earning, on an average, 24/- a week, were not entitled to a modest 2/6 to supplement that wage, and to meet, to some very small extent, the conditions which the last two or three years have created all around them. I am glad that there is some evidence of a change of heart in that matter, even if it merely means that the whole matter is being reconsidered. Certainly, I think there can be very little difficulty in convincing any impartial person that the workers engaged by that local authority, and by other local authorities throughout the country, have been very unfairly treated during the period which has elapsed since the outbreak of the European War.

I want to draw the Minister's attention again to the rather chaotic position which obtains in connection with county hospitals. The Minister will know that, in the time of his predecessors, some years back, the county hospitals in many parts of the country fulfilled a very useful function. Major operations of various kinds and, in some hospitals, of all kinds, were carried out there. They were carried out in many hospitals with conspicuous success, and the patients were saved the difficulty involved in making long journeys to the cities for the purpose of getting the attention which they were able to obtain at home in the circumstances I have described. For some reason or another, that policy was completely changed some time ago. The boards of health in charge of the county hospitals were informed that work of that kind could not and should not be performed in these hospitals in future. Efforts were made by local authorities here and there to resist, or even mildly to object to, that rather extraordinary decision of the Department, but their efforts were unavailing, and where they endeavoured to make provision for the appointment of medical officers with special qualifications in surgery to the charge of such hospitals, the Minister's attitude in the whole matter was completely unrelenting. I know of cases in which local authorities were compelled to appoint medical officers to such institutions at a salary of £100 and £150 a year, thereby precluding entirely the possibility of getting men of special merit and qualifications to carry on that work.

The whole circumstances, however, have changed recently. The alteration in transport facilities has brought the position of the county hospitals very much to the fore and I notice that one local authority, of which I am a member, lately received a communication from the Minister asking for information as to what work of an important surgical nature had been performed in the county hospitals. Unfortunately, nothing has been done in that respect, due to the change authorised by the Minister and I mention the matter now in the hope that, even belatedly, we may have arrangements made whereby the county hospitals in various parts of the country, more especially in view of the transport difficulties which now exist in respect of the rapid removal of patients over long distances, would be permitted again to carry on useful work of surgical importance in such hospitals, which they were originally designed for in many cases and which, up to the time the Minister declared against such a policy, they very usefully carried on.

I have on previous occasions on this Estimate referred to the appalling lack of facilities for the up-to-date treatment of tuberculosis in this country, and it is a very regrettable fact that the Minister's statement to-day reveals that there has been even some increase in the number of deaths from tuberculosis. In spite of the fact that we discuss this matter at a peculiar time, at a time when there are certain difficulties in bringing about big reform, it is no harm to emphasise the fact that we lag sadly behind in the matter of providing adequate treatment for tuberculosis, and that the treatment that is being afforded for the prevention and cure of tuberculosis in other countries ought to have attracted us long ago and urged us to take some steps to follow in that direction. Many of the sanatoria in this country are very poor affairs, indeed, and it seems to me very hard to understand how a number of years have been allowed to pass without making some attempt to bring sanatorium treatment, and the general care of persons afflicted with tuberculosis, up to date in some degree in this country. I hope that even now some move may be made in that direction.

I would suggest that the National Health Insurance Society might be consulted as to how far they could help in formulating a scheme of after care or home care for patients afflicted with tuberculosis. Members of this House will remember that at one time insured persons were entitled to what was described as domiciliary treatment for the purpose of helping them after they had left hospitals where they were treated for tuberculosis, and that as a result of changes made in legislation some years ago that particular benefit was withdrawn. It seems to me that that is a very important matter, and that even with the best of care and treatment in a sanatorium, if people are allowed to go back to their own homes and to live under conditions that are little beyond the hunger line, and merely asked to report at a dispensary once a fortnight or once a month, our whole efforts for the treatment of tuberculosis in this country if they cannot extend substantially beyond that, are futile and will effect no reasonable improvement in the present position.

My main purpose in intervening in this debate this evening is to refer to a particular matter, of which I sent notice to the Minister's Department during the last fortnight. It concerns a sworn inquiry that was held in County Cork in December, 1940, for the purpose of investigating certain alleged irregularities in connection with road work at Ballingeary, County Cork, and if I have to trouble the House for some little time, with a view to putting Deputies in possession of the facts, I think the matter is of sufficient importance to warrant my doing so. In October, 1939, the Cork County Council received notification of a grant of £9,000 for strengthening and widening portions of the road between Inchigeela and Ballingeary, County Cork. The work was completed after some months, and nothing was heard of any alleged irregularities in connection with that work until a period of 12 months, from the date when notification of the grant was received by the county council, had elapsed. Then began the first chapter in a particularly strange and interesting story. In that district there was a ganger in charge of the maintenance work for the county council: a man who had reached the age of 70 years and who, in accordance with the regulations made by the county council, would retire from his position on having reached the age of 70 years. The acting county surveyor, having ascertained that the ganger had reached the age of 70 years, asked him to retire, and made arrangements for the appointment of a temporary ganger, who happened not to fit in with the political views of the Minister, or of members of the Minister's Party on the county council, and, very particularly, one member of that Party.

The first item in this story was a statement made at a county council meeting on the 17th October, 1940, to the effect that the county surveyor had acted wrongly in retiring this man, since he had not reached the age of 70 years, and a political admirer of the Minister's Party on the county council said that he was in a position to prove that the ganger had not reached the age of 70 years. I want to emphasise the word "prove" in view of many of the things that happened afterwards. An apology for that statement was made when a certificate was produced before the county council showing that the man had reached the age of 70 years, and he was retired accordingly, and a temporary ganger was appointed. Then began a very strong campaign to have this temporary ganger removed, and the first shot in the campaign was fired shortly afterwards, when a statement was made at the county council that, during the time this man had acted in a very minor capacity in connection with the supervision of work on this particular grant that I have referred to, he had been guilty of fraud: in other words, that he had connived at the robbery of public funds by allowing certain people to dump stones that were alleged to be of a certain weight, being, in fact, short of that weight. Now, any man who would be found guilty of charges of that kind would not be worthy of employment by a local authority or anybody else for five minutes. I would not stand for one second in defence of anybody of that kind, if I were satisfied that there was any ground for making that allegation. When charges of that kind were made at a meeting of a sub-committee of the county council, I think it was the chairman of the county council, who is a member of this House, who suggested that an inquiry should be held into this particular matter.

The astonishing rapidity with which that inquiry was granted contrasts rather strikingly with the silence and the dilatory methods of the Department on other matters. The inquiry started in the courthouse in Macroom in November, 1940. The investigations covered the extremely lengthy period of five full days, and concluded late at night on the 19th of December, 1940. After that time there began again a great silence. Anybody who was present at the inquiry must have realised that the whole atmosphere reeked with political prejudice, and that the whole aim and purpose of the charges made was to destroy the working man who happened to be promoted to a certain position in the employment of the county council because he was regarded as the most suitable person for that position. There were, however, people who desired to have a victim, and certainly no steps were spared in that effort. So much was that atmosphere manifest in connection with that matter that it was a source of general discussion over a very large part of the county. Shortly after the inquiry finished, I thought fit to address to the Minister's predecessor a letter dated the 27th January, 1941, in the following terms:—

"There concluded on the 18th ultimo at Macroom courthouse a five-day inquiry on oath into alleged irregularities touching the supply of stone for the reconstruction of the Inchigeela-Ballingeary road.

"The inquiry was held by the chief engineering inspector of the Department, Mr. T.C. Courtney. A representative of the workers' organisation of Ballingeary, who was employed as a temporary ganger of the work, was, in effect, charged with connivance at fraud by permitting short loads of stones to be accepted and paid for, and I was, and am, actively interested in his case because I sincerely believe in his innocence and because I believe further that he was a victim of unfair attack based largely on political prejudice.

"The case aroused considerable local feeling and to indicate this, sworn evidence was tendered at the inquiry that an attempt was made to interfere with a witness who had valuable evidence to give towards proving the innocence of Matthew Twomey, the man above referred to. It has been stated freely in the district that strong attempts have been and will be made to bring political pressure to bear on you to influence the result of the inquiry.

"I do not believe that such tactics, if employed, could be successful. In order to set all doubts at rest and to satisfy everybody concerned that strict impartiality has been observed between accusers and accused, I respectfully but firmly ask that the inspector's report together with the complete minute of the evidence at the inquiry be forwarded to the county council with the result, and that you would expedite the issue of the documents referred to and the result as much as possible."

No acknowledgment whatever was received to that letter, and when the Minister's predecessor went to happier surroundings the great silence was maintained in connection with this long-drawn-out inquiry. It may surprise Deputies to learn that not one word was heard about the result of the charges made at the inquiry from December, 1940, until March, 1942, when the county council received a bill for £70 or £78 in connection with the expenses of the inquiry. In my opinion, the county council very properly decided not to pay that bill until they heard what the result of the inquiry was. After some time a letter was received by the county council, dated 10th April, from the Secretary, Department of Local Government, but not a word as to the result of the inquiry and not a word about the inspector's report.

I want to say some things about what happened at the inquiry. The member of the county council who made the charges that I have referred to, the most serious charges that could be made against anybody, was present during the whole five days of the inquiry. He was repeatedly asked to go into the witness-box and submit himself for examination, but, for reasons best known to himself, he refrained from doing so. It was tendered in sworn evidence that some years previous to this whole transaction he had approached the then local surveyor of the district and asked to have this same man, against whom he subsequently made the charges I have mentioned, removed from the employment that he had as an ordinary road hand in that district: that he gave no reasons to the assistant surveyor as to why the man should be removed, but simply said that he did not want him, and the assistant surveyor, responding to that kind of pressure, removed this particular man. It was sworn that this particular man had been pursued over a number of years. The man who made the charges at the inquiry was invited to refute that statement. For five days he sat silent at the inquiry without offering a single word of evidence or of proof of the charges that he had made, relying entirely on certain evidence that, to say the least of it, was in a large degree very doubtful.

The main burden of the charge made was that a certain lorry brought materials to a dump which was piled there for the purpose of being used on the roads: that in some cases, the lorry went back, again taking with it a certain quantity of the stone that should have been dumped, the inference being that the owners were paid for the full load while taking part of it back. The witnesses supporting the charges estimated that on certain occasions they saw quantities of stones in the lorry amounting to about one ton or one and a half tons.

The lorry in question was available at the court house during the course of the inquiry. The inspector had an opportunity of seeing it as well as everybody else who cared to do so. I assert that it would be impossible for any of the persons concerned to be able to swear truthfully that it would be physically possible for the floor of that lorry to take a ton or one and a half tons of stone. Taking the size of the lorry and the protection along the sides of it I do not know how anybody who wanted to face the facts honestly, could swear that such a thing was possible.

There is another matter that deserves to be mentioned here. It was sworn at the inquiry that two members of the Oireachtas, one a member of this House and the other a member of the Seanad, as well as two members of the Minister's Party on the county council, went into that district on a date immediately preceding a certain phase of the inquiry and interviewed certain people there with a view to getting certain witnesses, who had been asked to come forward to vindicate the innocence of the worker concerned and against whom the charges were made, to refrain from doing so.

You can call that peaceful persuasion or you can call it intimidation, but it was not denied. Sworn evidence as to that was given by the man who was urged to stay at home, but who had more courage, perhaps, than some other people would have in the same circumstances. He came and tendered evidence of the circumstances under which he had been asked to stay at home, and that evidence was not refuted from beginning to end during the course of the inquiry.

Although the member of the county council who made the charges, and another colleague of his belonging to the same Party in the council, and two members of the Oireachtas, were present during the proceedings, for reasons best known to themselves they refused to deny that statement, making it clear, I think, to anybody who wanted to be impartial in this matter that the charge was true and was substantiated by evidence, and had not been contradicted. There the matter remained until a letter was received from the Secretary of the Local Government Department on 10th April, 1942, and I do not think it is any exaggeration to describe it as one of the strangest productions that ever emanated from that Department, and that is probably a very sweeping statement.

I should have said that during the inquiry one fact was established, namely, that the man who was charged with fraud and dishonesty was proved, on the sworn evidence of an assistant surveyor, or some other employee of the county council, to have drawn attention to one short load of stones which was found there, to have checked it up by a method of measurement known as boxing, and to have insisted that the person who brought that short quantity of stones should not be paid for it. In fact it was established that no payment whatever had been made in respect of that transaction. That was a rather strange line for a man who was charged with being consistently dishonest or with refusing to assist in the honest and careful management of whatever county funds he had charge of in regard to that particular matter.

Now I come to the letter received from the Secretary of the Local Government Department on the 10th April, 1942. This is not the report of the inspector and it was not accompanied by the stenographer's notes of the evidence taken at the inquiry. It is a letter from the Secretary of the Department, with certain excerpts from the evidence taken out here and there and, in my opinion, is entirely unrepresentative of the substance of the evidence given and the facts established at the inquiry. There was no reference to the fact that the man charged had been previously dismissed from his employment because he was not acceptable to a certain member of the county council. There was no reference whatever to the fact that attempts were made to persuade witnesses from coming forward in his defence. I do not think I exaggerate in describing the letter as about the best piece of whitewashing that the Minister could do for a political friend.

The Minister's attitude in this whole matter is ungenerous in the extreme. It is absolutely manifest that this charge was not sustained. In my judgment it was made for the purpose of destroying the honour and reputation and driving out of the employment of the county council this workingman to whom I have referred. He was a man in a humble position, but a man whose honour and honesty were as dear to him as the honour and honesty of any Minister are to him, and I suggest a man whose honour and honesty should be adequately protected, as if he were the highest public servant or public figure in this land. The Minister, in the very ungenerous strain in which this letter is couched, states that the allegations made in connection with the delivery of stones had not been proved beyond doubt, and then comes the qualification that there was reasonable grounds for suspicion. My suggestion to the Minister is that this letter was couched in certain terms for a very special reason. It seemed clear to me, and to many others who were perhaps in a better position to weigh up a situation of that kind than I was, that the person who made the charges, who ran away from them personally at the inquiry, who was proved to be partial and prejudiced not alone before this inquiry started, but for a number of years previously, had left himself open to proceedings for defamation of character; and, of course, a letter couched in terms of that kind would be a fairly useful smoke-screen in a situation of that kind. The Minister went on to say that he did not propose to convey censure on any of the officials or employees engaged in the work. I suggest to the Minister— and I put it no stronger—that that was a very ungenerous way of conveying his views in regard to this matter to the local authority, that there was really one issue put forward at that inquiry, namely, that the man was dishonest, and that the answer to that charge should be either "Yes" or "No". The Minister's letter is both "Yes" and "No". In my opinion, that reflects a good deal of discredit on the Local Government Department or whoever was responsible for that letter.

The Minister goes on to say that, in view of the fact that the county surveyor who was responsible for this work had died, he did not propose to convey censure on any of the officials. I think any of us in County Cork who knew the late country surveyor, Mr. O'Connor—and I differed from him on many occasions—would resent that slur on his memory. I put the matter no stronger than to say that, if all officials did their work as well as he and other officials and even humble employees of the Cork County Council, they need not have very much to be ashamed of. This inquiry was asked for by the county council in order that certain very serious charges should be investigated. The man who made the charges was a silent spectator in the court. He was represented by junior counsel and a solicitor. He did not offer any evidence whatever in regard to this matter and now the Cork County Council has been seriously asked to hand in a cheque for his expenses in connection with this inquiry where, in the view of the Secretary of the Local Government Department, he rendered a valuable public service. I never heard of such a novel proposal. I suggest that the Local Government Department could not be prostituted much more than it has been in the story of the transaction I have given you. It is a sordid, discreditable business from beginning to end. I think this particular incident takes some beating and I regret that any Department of the State would lend itself to the particular method and the particular tactics that have been displayed throughout this matter.

It may be the Cork County Council will decline to meet the legal expenses of this gentleman who, in the opinion of the Secretary of the Department— or perhaps it was somebody else in the Department—rendered such service. It may be that the Cork County Council will then follow other local authorities into the exile that the Minister for Local Government has decreed for them. It may be that they would suggest, if any expenses have to be met, that the expenses of a humble working man without any pension, without very much means of any kind except what he can earn from week to week, and who had to stand the expense of being legally defended at the inquiry for five days, would be a more reasonable charge to meet.

Mark you, he has not been vindicated in this letter of the Minister, but he has been vindicated in the opinion of the county council officers, who have retained his services, and he has been completely vindicated in the opinion of everybody who was anxious to face the facts honestly. He had to meet expenses involving a fairly considerable sum over a period of five days. There was no reference to him here, beyond the Minister's statement that he refrains from passing any censure on him.

I ask the Minister to make available to the county council in Cork the report of the inspector and also to make available the transcript from the shorthand notes that were taken at the inquiry. I hope, during whatever period I may be in this House, it will not be necessary to refer to a transaction of this kind, one that, in my opinion, is extremely discreditable and reflects to a very striking extent the depths to which local government has sunk in this country.

Mr. Byrne

I listened with interest to the Minister reading his statement and I was rather disappointed when, early in that statement, he referred to the fact that cancer research has come to an end, that inquiries towards improving the position in relation to cancer had ceased, and that even the inquiries regarding what other nations are doing for cancer patients have come to an end. That may be all due to matters over which he has no control, but there is no earthly reason why the experiments which we heard so much about a couple of years ago, when the Hospitals Sweepstakes were in full swing, should be discontinued. We were told then that the Hospitals Sweepstakes would be putting £10,000 by as a fund to enable research work for cancer curing to be carried on. I understand that there are experts in the country willing and anxious to continue their work, and they are continuing at the moment without much backing from the Minister for Local Government. I earnestly hope, in view of the serious situation that has developed in relation to cancer—the Minister outlined the position for us to-day—that he will take steps to do everything humanly possible to encourage those who are interested in the subject to continue their research work so that in time, please God, they will be able to obtain a cure for those who are suffering from that dreadful scourge.

The Minister went on to refer to tuberculosis, and once or twice he used the phrase: "The corporation have been asked". I find that the very reverse is the position, that the corporation asked the Department to do certain things which, so far, have not been done. The corporation, who are looking after so many tubercular patients in their institutions in and around the City of Dublin, are anxious to have the Minister's support in order to find remedies and ease the position, and give some comfort to those suffering from tuberculosis. I think it was some years ago that the corporation asked to be allowed to provide an X-ray apparatus in the centre of the city, in Charles Street Dispensary. I understand that to this day they have not got an X-ray apparatus there, but they have a screening apparatus, which is part of the machinery required in trying to find a cure for tuberculosis.

We are aware of the Minister's desire in this matter. His statement showed a great desire to find a remedy, and I appeal to him, and to his staff, to act more in co-operation with the corporation, to ask them what their requirements are instead of standing in their way, not acknowledging letters in time, and withholding sanction for machinery necessary to find a remedy. Perhaps the Minister will say that there is an X-ray apparatus in the city. There is, in the Dublin Union buildings. The Minister stated that tubercular patients are reluctant to report when the disease threatens them. But they will be far more reluctant to report if they know it entails a visit to the grounds of the Dublin Board of Assistance, which means the Dublin Union, in which 2,000 to 3,000 unfortunate people are placed through no fault of their own. These people threatened with tuberculosis do not like going to the union in order to have a test made. Is it too much to ask the Minister to sanction the erection, in a central place in the city, of an X-ray apparatus to help in solving a problem that he appears anxious to solve?

It was mentioned by some Deputies that there was little use in spending money trying to improve the position with regard to tuberculosis if we send the patients out to homes that are sometimes not fit to live in. We send them out without regard to after care. There is no provision for after care. I would suggest that the Minister ought to sanction some proproposal and grant money to allow after care to be given to T.B. patients. May I say—others have mentioned it— that, so far as hospital treatment is concerned in general cases, it is equally as difficult to get a bed for a working-class person in a Dublin hospital to-day as it was ten years ago? I do not know why that is so and why it is that our Dublin working-class people, if they have to get treatment and to get it quickly, are sent to James' Street. I want to say that as far as James' Street is concerned, it is one of the most up-to-date and one of the best managed institutions in the country. The medical attention given there, both surgical and medical, is equal to any in the country but, as I say, there is a reluctance on the part of the Dublin working-class person to go to that institution for medical treatment. It brands them as being on relief all the time and of not being in a position to demand treatment in an ordinary hospital in the city.

In regard to hospital treatment, I have received the same complaints that one or two other Deputies referred to, namely, that we have magnificent buildings, magnificent hospitals, magnificently furnished, in the country, but that when a major operation is required, the full expert opinion that is required is not on the spot and many patients requiring special surgical treatment have to come to Dublin or to the other big cities to secure it. I do not say that in any disparaging way of the medical authorities in those hospitals. They were not brought in there as experts to perform major operations. It is a great pity that these magnificent buildings are not fully staffed. About five years ago there was a proposal put to the Government that a committee of the experts here would, if required, visit these hospitals in their turn but, so far, nothing has been heard of it.

I say that those who read the law read it wrong and too severely. I read it too—I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will help in the matter—and I believe that this woman has no personal gain from the other person sharing her flat. She is paying 8/- and the person who was brought in is paying the other 8/- and it is handed to the landlord but this unfortunate woman is charged, for the purposes of the means test, with being in receipt of an extra £11 12s. 0d. income. It is not income and we all know it. No matter what the law says, we know it is not income. That person is merely handing it over to another person.

I thought the Minister would make some appeal to local authorities to save paper. I know the position of the printing and newspaper industry at the moment and anything we could do to provide the industry with paper, or to give it shipping space for the importation of paper, would be well worth while. The employment given is, I believe, second to that given by agriculture.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy could hardly relate the paper and printing industries to the Estimate for the Minister for Local Government and Public Health.

Mr. Byrne

I thought the Local Government Department might ask local authorities to save paper. As I am on the subject of paper, here is a Dáil Paper three-quarters of a page of which is blank. There is a waste of paper.

Dr. Ward

It does not arise on this Estimate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister for Local Government has no responsibility in that connection.

Mr. Byrne

The Local Government Estimate is printed on portion of it, and what there is of it could be put on three-quarters of a page, and paper thereby saved. It is a very important industry which, I understand, is in danger and something should be done to save it. I ask the Minister, finally, when these cases of the means test in connection with widows' and orphans' pensions come before him to give them that sympathetic consideration which I know he is capable of giving at times.

General MacEoin

The Department of Local Government appears to be getting some abuse this evening. I think it would be no harm if somebody approached the Vote from this angle, that there are many things it does well and that while there may be complaints, broadly speaking, of the very many things they have to do, they do a good many well, and the number they do not do well is not very large. I want to pay a tribute to the Department for its public health activities. I think they have done very good work in that respect. Everybody admits, and I am sure they admit themselves, that they could do more, if they had the wherewithal to do it. In regard to housing in rural areas, they have certainly done very good work; and on that matter all I wish to do is to ask them to continue their work. Mention has been made here of tuberculosis cases. The Department by their housing schemes have done much to improve the health of the people. By the provision of houses, through reconstruction and the building of new houses, they have certainly improved the situation a great deal and I am glad that they propose to continue that activity this year. I wish, however, they would be a bit more generous in view of the increased cost of timber and so on, and I urge that they should keep the reconstruction grants at as high a figure as possible.

There is then the question of the county medical officers of health, who are doing good work. There is some delay in the matter of the obtaining of the necessary equipment, but Rome was not built in a day, and what I would urge in that respect is that the matter be expedited as much as possible and that the Department push forward with the completion of the local public health schemes. In regard to sewerage and water supplies, there is much work to be done. Again, I quite realise that the Department cannot do it all as quickly as people would like, and the Department is not entirely to blame in every respect. Notwithstanding all the fine things said by Deputy Walsh and other people about local authorities, I think a great deal of the blame can be attributed to inactivity on the part of local authorities and, while I am not prepared to say that it is right for the Minister to abolish them in every case, I have, at the same time, come to the conclusion that some more ought to be abolished, and abolished quickly. The Minister has had my views on this subject already and I do not propose to go any further on that, except to say that where a public authority has flagrantly failed to carry out its duties in respect of hospitalisation, public health or the administration of the Local Government Acts, and where the Minister is satisfied, on fair evidence, that there is maladministration—not, unfortunately, sufficient, apparently, to secure a conviction, because in one case I know of 12 good men and true found a person not guilty—I think that local authority should go. If the Minister wants me to defend him in that matter, I will defend him at any time here or at any cross-roads in the country, because some things that have happened are a public scandal.

On the question of housing, I made representations to the Minister some time ago urging him to make different regulations under the Housing Acts. I am not now, Sir, advocating a change in the law; I am advocating a change in the regulations made by the Minister under the Act by which he could allow a grant in respect of the reconstruction of a house with greater floor space. In several cases where it is an absolute necessity and where reconstruction is not possible by reducing the floor space, because that floor space is beyond a certain standard, reconstruction cannot take place. That is a purely administrative regulation and, when an exceptional case arises, in which for the reason that there is a large family it would make for the improvement of the health of the people in the house, he should give himself the power to make a grant in such a case.

With regard to Dundrum Asylum— I am taking the Votes as they appear on the Order Paper—I should like to ask the Minister what is the procedure in respect of the removal of the remains of a patient who dies in that institution and what are the circumstances under which a coroner's inquest is held into the death of such a patient. Where a coroner's inquest is held, is it abnormal? A complaint reached me from the relatives of a person detained there, who got a telegram saying that this person was seriously ill and who subsequently got a second telegram saying that the person was dead. On receiving this telegram, the relatives brought a hearse from Longford and, when they got here, they were told that a coroner's inquest had to be held and they had to keep the hearse in Dublin for two or three days, which involved very considerable expense. The explanation given was that a coroner's inquest was necessary. I asked if these people had got a report of the coroner's verdict and was informed that the only thing they had got was permission for burial, and that no report has been sent to the son of this person as to the circumstances of his death, or as to the cause of their being delayed so long in Dublin. Whether it is abnormal or not, I do not know, and I am not particular as to whether the Minister replies to me now—he can send a note to me at some other time in regard to it—but I should be glad to know the position in regard to these patients.

With regard to national health insurance, I am glad to learn from the reports of meetings published in the Press that there is an improvement in national health funds. I should like to know if the Minister has made any investigation as to the possibility of increasing the benefits of those who come under that Act or, alternatively, the benefits received by widows and orphans. With regard to the question of widows' and orphans' pensions, I think that where an applicant appeals, and where the Department of Local Government and Public Health investigate the case, the Department are as generous as the Act will allow them to be. Deputy Byrne referred to a case in that connection, but I think it will be found that they are as generous as they can be. The case, however, must be made, and there must be no shilly-shallying about concealing the facts. If the facts are put forward clearly, and the case is appealed to the referee, who, apparently, is a member of the Local Government Department, I find that they deal fairly and generously as far as they can possibly do so within the law, but the obligation is on Deputies and other people—unfortunately, we all find such cases when we go home or when we are going around in the discharge of our duties—to make the case for those particularly deserving people who have suffered the loss of the bread-winner of the family.

With regard to the question of hospitalisation generally, I noticed that the Parliamentary Secretary smiled when I got up, because he knew that I was going to say something about the Longford hospitals. Well, I think I have practically exhausted both my own patience and his in regard to that matter, but at least he did promise that an improvement upon our existing hospitals would take place, and yet we are still in the same condition as we have been for so many years past. As a matter of fact, Sir, I am going to say quite candidly before the whole House that I shall never refer to this matter again as long as this Government is in office, because I think it is a public disgrace. Whether it is the fault of the Department of Local Government and Public Health or the fault of the Longford Board of Health or the Longford County Council that is responsible, I do not care: the result of all their activities is that we have a hospital in Longford—one hospital in particular—that is in as primitive and ancient a condition as it was 150 years ago. I know that the Department of Local Government and Public Health, some years ago, held that it was the fault of the Longford Board of Health, and I know that the Longford Board of Health say that it is the Department's fault, but it is between them at any rate, and there is only this to be said about them: that they are both Fianna Fáil and they have both left us in the position in which we are. Again, Sir, I say to you and to the House that as long as this Government is in office I shall never again mention this matter of the Longford hospitals.

Dr. Hannigan

I listened with no small interest to the review by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health on the state of public health in the country, and I was keenly disappointed that the Minister was content to adopt the time-honoured practice of his predecessors, and merely adduced a certain amount of statistical data, the purpose of which was not so much to reveal the state of the public health as to conceal the ineptitude and incompetence of the Department of Local Government and Public Health. There are so many examples of this glaring incompetence and inefficiency which could be named, that it is difficult for anybody conversant with the operations of that Department to know where to begin or end, but I, for my part, at any rate, will be satisfied to select one example—what I consider an outstanding example—of the inefficiency and the unforgivable neglect of this Department in what I consider, and what everybody interested in public health must consider, a matter of very great importance. I refer to the method of admission of patients to public mental hospitals. It is now many years ago since it was recognised by medical opinion—universally, at that—that voluntary admission to public mental hospitals was a desirable and urgent reform. Several years ago—at least four—the Department, made aware of the desirability of this reform by several local authorities, instituted, or rather was represented on, a committee which inquired into this matter.

As I say, it is at least four years since this matter was inquired into and reported on, but nothing whatever has been done by the Department to make the necessary change. The effect of the failure of the Department to deal with this important aspect of public health has been that numerous cases, hundreds and hundreds of mental cases, which might be cured and could be cured, are condemned to permanency in mental hospitals because of the lack of facilities for voluntary admission. Of course, I should explain that by voluntary admission is simply meant that patients could be admitted to mental hospitals without being certified insane. Because of the fact that only persons who are certified as insane can be admitted to these institutions, no early treatment is possible in a very large number of cases. The Parliamentary Secretary appears to be amused. I am very much surprised that he, knowing, as he does or ought to know, the necessity for this change, should adopt a sneering attitude towards my remarks in that regard. However, that is a small matter.

There is another matter, too, to which I am surprised the Minister did not make some reference in this Estimate. During the last 12 months there has been a very considerable increase in the incidence of a contagious skin disease called scabies—popularly known as "itch". It surely ought to be known to the public health section of the Department that the specific remedy that is used in the treatment of this skin infection is in short supply and, in fact, in many cases, not available. I am surprised that when the Minister gets on his feet in this House to review the state of public health he does not go beyond the figures handed to him by the officials in his Department, the purpose of which is to provide a pat on the back for the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary. The reason why I mention this particular infection is because the importance of it becomes accentuated by reason of the fact that it may be necessary to use the public air-raid shelters. In that eventuality an increase in this infection would be inevitable.

With regard to tuberculosis, the facilities for sanatorium treatment in Dublin have not improved very much over the past five or six years. I think it is at least six years since the present resident medical superintendent of Crooksling was appointed. So far as I can recollect, one of the conditions of his appointment was that he should have experience in the treatment of surgical tuberculosis, but, notwithstanding that, the position is that not only have they not got in that institution the apparatus necessary for the treatment of surgical tuberculosis, but they have not even got the trained personnel. I suppose this is largely linked up with the fact that round about that time it was thought a new sanatorium would have been built within a year or two. So far as my recollection goes, the members of the Dublin City Council had selected a site as suitable for the building of the new sanatorium which was considered necessary then and, I am sure, still is, but, owing to the usual obstructive genius of the Department of Local Government, nothing seems to have materialised in that direction, and we are still as far away from having proper sanatorium accommodation as ever we were, and I am afraid are likely to remain so for some years to come.

The Minister, I think, made some reference to diphtheria immunisation. I cannot understand why vaccination, which is a form of preventive against small pox, a disease which has not existed in this country for at least 25 years, should be compulsory, while immunisation against the ravages of diphtheria, a disease that claims the lives of thousands and thousands of children and of not a few adults, should still be a voluntary scheme. I do not think there can be any doubt about the value of immunisation. Certainly, no one who understands its technique will doubt its value, so that I cannot understand why vaccination should be compulsory and immunisation against diphtheria voluntary. I understood the general policy was that, in the City of Dublin at any rate, this immunisation would be carried out by the dispensary medical officers. I understood that was the desire, not only of the local authority but of the Department itself, but because of some differences between the Department and the doctors, extending now over a number of years, they do not seem to have arrived at any agreement whereby this immunisation could be carried out in a manner which, apparently, would be most suitable to the requirements of the community—that is to say, that it should be done by the dispensary doctors.

The Minister uttered what sounded to me like a word of warning to the voluntary hospitals. Here, again, we have a continuation of the Department's policy, alternating between coaxing and threatening the voluntary hospitals. It has been obvious to me for several years, and it must be obvious to anybody who takes any real interest in the hospital problem, that the voluntary hospital system is not now adequate to the needs of the community. It was all right while we had money coming in from the Hospitals Sweepstakes, but since that source has ceased the inadequacy of the voluntary hospital system to provide the best type of hospitalisation will have become more apparent. I do not wish to be misunderstood in what I say in that regard. The fault that I have to find is with the system, which is an antiquated one and no longer capable of standing up to the needs of the people. I hope that before many years the system we will have in this country will be one of municipal and State hospitals. The sooner, I think, we have that, the better. As I have said, I do not want to be misunderstood. I am not finding any fault with the personnel of the voluntary hospitals or with their trained staffs. I appreciate, as well as everybody else, the value of their work. What I have to find fault with is the system.

The last point I wish to deal with is one which appears to have been very much before the minds of the Deputies who spoke earlier on the Estimate, and that is the abolition of local authorities. Deputy Corish pointed out that during the last ten years, since the Fianna Fáil Party came into power, no less than 31 local authorities have been abolished. In every instance in which a local inquiry was instituted into the administration of a local authority, the local authority was abolished. I propose to deal with certain aspects of the inquiry that was held into the Dublin Board of Assistance. As a former member of that board, I should like to say that the inspector who held the inquiry treated the members and all those who were asked to give evidence with the utmost courtesy. Every facility was given to anyone who cared to come and give evidence. I, for my part at any rate, was very much impressed by his courtesy and the ready manner in which he facilitated those who wanted to give evidence or who displayed any interest in the inquiry. But it did seem to me at the same time that the inspector's principal function there was not so much to inquire into the general administration of the board as to find some reason or some excuse for the Minister to abolish that board. Perhaps, I would get that impression more easily than anybody else, because I was aware that the Minister had boasted shortly before he assumed office that at the first opportunity that presented itself he would abolish the Dublin Board of Assistance.

Now the principal ground given by the Minister for the abolition of the board was the system of administering home assistance. In that regard, it is interesting to know that the inquiry instituted by the Minister only covered the period from 1936 onwards. But the system of administration of outdoor relief was initiated in 1930 and was simply taken over by the board from 1936. The second matter mentioned by the Minister in a statement he made related to a change in an entry where a figure was changed from 100 to 1,000 —a book-keeping record. I have not got the documents before me, but the effect of this change would be, I think, to increase tenfold the price of the commodity ordered. Although the Minister advanced this as an example of the board's carelessness, he was well aware that this particular matter was sub judice so far as the board was concerned at the time of the inquiry; that in fact, the board had not had an opportunity of coming to a decision on the matter prior to the inquiry, and that subsequent to the inquiry, when the board had arrived at its final decision, it imposed severe penalties on the officials who were at fault. But the board was dissolved. Good luck to the Minister if he regards it as a good political move to dissolve the board. But why carry on the farce of having an inquiry involving the expense which this inquiry involved? I would say to the Minister: “Go ahead abolishing local authorities, but do not set up an expensive inquiry beforehand; do not set up an inquiry which will cost the ratepayers several thousand pounds”.

So far as the Dublin Board of Assistance is concerned, it has been replaced by commissioners. I addressed a number of Parliamentary questions to the Minister in relation to these commissioners and I ascertained that the combined salaries of the commissioners amounted to £2,500 a year; £1,100 to the chairman and £700 to each of the commissioners. I do not know how the Minister can reconcile the payment of such large salaries with the fact that the Department prevented lowly-paid workers of local authorities from getting an increase in their wages. I do not understand why, in these circumstances, he can give people in part-time positions such salaries, because the work really is being done by the officials there. So far as I can ascertain, these commissioners are doing very little except meeting about once a week.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy has made a charge that the commissioners are doing very little work, so far as he can ascertain——

Dr. Hannigan

The Minister can deal with it in his reply. Is this a point of order?

Mr. MacEntee

I am putting it to the Deputy——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is putting a query to the Deputy.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy has alleged that the commissioners appointed have done very little work, or are doing very little work. How does the Deputy know that? What means has he of ascertaining what work the commissioners are doing, or is he merely slandering people who cannot defend themselves?

Dr. Hannigan

I am in a very different position from the Minister in regard to the board. I acted on that board for over six years. I know the work that has to be done there, and I know who does it.

Mr. MacEntee

The board did not do the work and that is why it has been abolished.

Dr. Hannigan

I have more experience of it than the Minister. I advise him to refrain from expressing his views on this matter until he knows a little more about it; then, perhaps, he will be in a position to make some sort of an intelligent observation. It was only after having put the questions to the Minister that I became aware of what the salaries of the three commissioners were. Although I tried repeatedly to secure from the Minister the ages of the commissioners, I was unable to get them. I have since learned that the Minister's reluctance or his failure to give that information was simply because one of the commissioners appointed is over 65 years of age, over the age at which public servants are compulsorily retired by the Minister and his Department. There are many other things I could say in relation to the commissioners, but I do not wish to take advantage of the privileges of this House to do so, and I am content to leave the matter there.

Mr. Corry

Apparently the Ceann Comhairle related it. The chairman of the Cork County Council looked for this inquiry into the maladministration of public funds, into the robbing of the ratepayers' money, but the political prejudice in the council, which Deputy Murphy speaks about was such, that the county council was not represented at the inquiry. The county council's legal adviser was not present and this unfortunate man, a small farmer from a mountainy district in West Cork, had to come at his own expense, had to fee lawyers for five long days, to fight what? To fight the ratepayers' cause, for the protection of public money and for the proper spending of public money by officials of the council.

Mr. Brodrick

At the present time we hear a great many complaints about the condition of the roads. Owing to the shortage of petrol there are not so many motors on the roads, while horse traffic is becoming very heavy. Farmers and others who are obliged to employ horses for transport think that some change should be made in the condition of the roads. The Minister may retort by asking if I want to see the roads brought back to the condition they were in 20 years ago. I do not, but I am of opinion that the county surveyors, at their conferences, should try to get a scheme whereby the roads would be made safer for horse traffic. We have some very bad hills on our roads. The surface is such that, instead of a horse being able to take a load of 25 cwt. with safety, he can only draw a load of 15 or 16 cwt. If the surface were rough a load of 25 cwt. could easily be taken. In many instances farmers are afraid, owing to the condition of the roads, to take their horses to the local towns. It is to be hoped that the county surveyors will do something to make the roads safer for horse traffic.

In regard to house building, I would like to impress on the Department that only seasoned timber should be used. We used to import a lot of seasoned timber, but we can get very little of it now. I suggested a short time ago that the Minister should consider getting a drying plant to season the native timber. What is done by some Departments is a disgrace. They cut timber to-day, saw it to-morrow and put it into houses on the following day. That is not fair. I want to make it clear that I have never seen that done in connection with any work carried out under the direction of the Department of Local Government.

If the native timber was put through a drying plant I think it could be made quite safe for use in house building. The Minister, instead of reducing the Estimate for housing, should try to keep the sum voted as high as possible because we still need a great many houses in the rural areas. There are plenty of applicants for new houses. In cottages that are close to local towns in the rural areas we often see, at the present time, two and sometimes three families in one cottage. That shows the need for more houses. I do not know that it is a great benefit to give an acre of land with the labourer's cottage. This question has been discussed a good deal in the country. Some people favour an acre. I am in favour of half an acre. My reason for saying that is this: that the labouring man or the artisan who is the occupier of one of these cottages and has to work an eight-hour day is often too tired to tackle that amount of land when he comes home in the evening. I suggest to the Minister that he should think over that, and consider whether, in his future plans for housing, he should not substitute a half-acre for an acre of land. I think the occupier of the house will be much better pleased because a man cannot attend to an acre of land after he has done his day's work. It would be an impossibility.

Mr. Meaney

There is one point in Deputy Brodrick's speech which I thoroughly agree with and that is in connection with the tarring of roads and making them fit for horse traffic. We are faced with a change over from lorry traffic to horse traffic all over the country and in many districts there is no doubt that the roads are not fit for farmers' horses to travel on. From this until the end of the emergency horse traffic is bound to be on the increase. That makes it all the more necessary to make the roads fit for horse traffic. I listened to Deputy Murphy's contribution to this debate and, as I expected, he attacked the County Management Act. Knowing Deputy Murphy as I do and knowing some of his colleagues on the Cork County Council, that did not come to me as a great surprise. But, when Deputy Murphy made use of the privileges of this House to villify an upright, honourable member of the Cork County Council, I really felt shocked.

Deputy Murphy dealt at length with the events prior to and at the sworn inquiry which took place in County Cork some time ago, and he dealt with the Minister's decision in the matter. It was a pity when Deputy Murphy started on this line that he did not give the whole story. Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of the members of the Cork County Council are upright, honourable and efficient administrators, I am sorry to say as a Cork man that some members of that council and some members of the local body there are not, to say the least, entirely free of corruption. It is far easier to make a statement than to prove it. The people in County Cork know what I am talking about and will realise that the statement I make is unfortunately true.

Here we had a case where a respected member of the Cork County Council came into the possession of certain information and, in carrying out his duty as a county councillor as he thought fit and proper, he placed the facts before the council openly. A sub-committee was appointed by the council to go into the matter. Deputy Murphy did not inform the House that at one of the council meetings this councillor was confronted with the suggestion that, if he could not substantiate the statements he had made in good faith, there would be a slander action brought against him. These are some of the methods generally applied when unscrupulous public men want to squash the attempts of decent, upright and honourable public men to bring something irregular to light and to put a stop to an undesirable state of affairs. Deputy Murphy went to the extent in his speech of trying to be both judge and jury. He picked out a few small matters connected with the inquiry. He picked out a case where he said it was not physically possible to see into a lorry.

As a member of the council I happened to be present at the inquiry on one occasion and I heard a witness testify that he saw from the upstairs window of a house a lorry taking stones back from the dump. Deputy Murphy did not tell that to the House. I do not want to go into this matter further, because it has been already gone into. But I take exception to the means and the methods adopted by Deputy Murphy, particularly in this House, in connection with the matter.

Deputy Murphy did not inform the House that at the inquiry he constituted himself chief adviser of the men against whom the charges were made. He could be seen consulting with them and their solicitors. On the other hand, what was the attitude of the officials of the Cork County Council at the inquiry? They left this outstanding man on the council to the wolves. So far as I can judge, they made no attempt to help the inspector at the inquiry. It has been asked why this councillor did not give evidence himself. The councillor is not here to answer for himself, and it is a cowardly thing to make charges against a man when he is not present. It is still more cowardly for a Deputy to abuse the privileges of the House in order to villify a member of a public board.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Murphy did not name anybody.

Mr. Meaney

No, but everybody in County Cork knows that only one councillor was responsible for having this inquiry held, and that he stood up to it and carried it through in spite of the sneers and jeers of some members of the Labour Party. This particular man did not give evidence. He had only certain information which he received, and he transmitted that information. He was not a witness of anything irregular being done. He only gave the names of people whom he thought were witnesses. Deputy Murphy also made an attack on two members of the Oireachtas. I do not know to whom he was alluding. I do not think he was alluding to me, because I was only there for one day and took no part whatever in the inquiry. I was only there for one day and took on behalf of the public, acting in my capacity as a member of the county council. He mentioned something about the proceedings at the inquiry, but he took pretty good care that he did not read the decision of the Minister for Local Government on the inquiry. He just took the thing as it suited himself. He did not indicate to you that the notebooks used by the gangers or by the contractors could not be procured at the inquiry. They were told there that all the books were burned. He did not tell you that in the Minister's opinion the whole inquiry disclosed extreme laxity on the part of some of the officials of the Cork County Council. He wants to cover up his own mistakes.

He stated here that he went into the inquiry with an open mind and an impartial manner. I wonder could it be regarded as open and impartial when a man acts as adviser to one of the parties concerned? That is for you to judge. It takes a man with extreme moral and physical courage to stand up to an ordeal like that. The least we could expect from members of this House, who also happen to be members of a local authority, is to allow a free and fair investigation into any charge of irregularity or fraud made against employees of public bodies. In the interests of the public, the sooner the County Management Act is put into operation the better. It would be better for those of the public whose circumstances are such that they may have to get benefits through local bodies. It would be better for the ratepayers, because it will be an attempt to give this country, so far as local administration is concerned——

Mr. Everett

Democratic control or a dictatorship.

Mr. Meaney

Deputy Murphy talked for three-quarters of an hour and no Deputy on these benches interrupted him. I demand the same treatment. I am not going to be "bulldosed" by any member of the Labour Party. I know their tactics well; they are tactics that will not get the members of that Party anywhere. I believe the County Management Act will give us cleaner and better administration. I am satisfied that our system of local administration is not as clean as it should be. Speaking for responsible persons in all sections of the community, I may say that the sooner the County Management Act is brought into operation the better.

Mr. Everett

That is the Deputy's opinion. Take a vote on it.

Mr. Meaney

If the Deputy wants any other speeches, let him come outside and he will get them.

Mr. Everett

What do you mean? We are prepared to meet you anywhere.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wishes to intervene, he should do so in an orderly manner, not by way of interruptions.

Mr. Meaney

I have said all I desire to say, and if the Deputy wants to contribute to the debate, he is welcome.

Dr. Ward

Deputy Keating will not fight at all.

Mr. Keating

As the Parliamentary Secretary knows, there are three or four unfortunate widows in County Wexford who are not eligible for widows' pensions. If reports that I have got are true, these poor women deserve some consideration. They have been denied home assistance and they cannot get widows' pensions. If the Parliamentary Secretary will put his hands to his heart he might find some way of relieving these unfortunate people. I would like the Minister to use his influence in having the cottages repaired.

I have been reporting these cottages for ten years and people have told me that they have been reporting them for ten to 14 years and nothing has been done about them yet. There is a widow, Mrs. Savage of Rathronan, Bridgetown, Wexford. She is the mother of three delicate children and the foster mother of five children. This woman asked me to go out to see her cottage. I have seen that she and her eight children and her brother-in-law, who is a postman, have to sleep in two rooms in that bad cottage. I have seen the mattresses up against the wall with must on them. How could that woman rear healthy children? How could those poor unfortunate children sleep there? They go to bed cold and they get up cold. I have reported that cottage several times and nothing has been done. There are several cottages in respect of which I could give the Minister the names and addresses of the people who live in them, if he wants them. I say it is his duty, when the Wexford Board of Health will not look after them, to look after them.

Mr. Beegan

I have listened with attention to the figures given by the Minister this evening in his opening statement. I am very pleased to hear that he contemplates tackling the greatest menace we have in this country in what I believe is the proper way. I had already read in the Press— and the Minister stated it here this evening—that a number of highly qualified medical men met the Parliamentary Secretary in the Department with a view to discovering the best method of dealing with tuberculosis in this country. I believe that was one of the best day's work ever performed by the Department of Local Government.

It was stated that tuberculosis seems to be on the increase, according to the figures. I am not at all inclined to believe that that is so. It would be very difficult to convince me that tuberculosis is on the increase, having regard to all that has been done to improve the conditions throughout the country. I believe that people now-a-days are not so reticent about this disease. They are not so prone to hide it from the general public and from the medical profession as they were some years ago. In nearly every instance now they come forward and their chief anxiety is to get the patient removed to some place where he or she will have proper accommodation and will be isolated from the rest of the family. The sad part of it is that we have not sufficient accommodation. As far as the sanatorium in Galway is concerned, Deputy Brodrick made statements here this evening. I suppose, if I were in his position, far removed from the operations of the Galway Board of Health, I might also make inaccurate statements. He said that the Galway Board of Health were forced by the Department of Local Government to acquire Kilcolgan Castle. I do not know if that is true. I do not believe that it was forced on them. Furthermore, the purchase of it, if not fully completed, was almost completed before this Government came into office at all.

Mr. MacEntee

In 1932.

Mr. Beegan

Deputy Brodrick said that the £10,000 paid for it was the ratepayers' money of County Galway, which I do not think is true either.

Mr. MacEntee

It is not true.

Mr. Beegan

I believe it is not true. I believe that that money is also from central funds and that there is no direct loss to the ratepayers. Nevertheless, we have a sanatorium in Galway, Woodlands Sanatorium, which is an antiquated place and only a makeshift. We have put up proposals to the Department of Local Government to have some additional accommodation provided there. I must say that the Department of Local Government have met us very fairly but the proposals which we have made to the Department and to which they have agreed, in my opinion, are totally inadequate to deal with the situation.

I believe this question of tuberculosis should not be dealt with on a county basis or anything of the kind. I believe the Minister is now adopting the right lines in having it dealt with by his own Department, presumably acting in conjunction with a national council competent to go into every aspect of the question. I am sure there is a number of medical men, specialists in tuberculosis, in this country who can render very valuable service. I believe that a national council on which they would be represented, including also a number of good businessmen or social welfare workers, would tackle the problem in a big national way and, in my opinion, that would be the proper way to tackle it. I believe that two, three or four sanatoria should be erected in suitable places to deal with, at least, what are considered curable cases. As against other cases, chronic cases, I suppose the best that could be done would be to provide the most suitable accommodation so as to isolate them from their families and give them all the comfort they require. I believe the building of sanatoria in one county for the patients of that particular county is a piecemeal way of dealing with the problem. While any accommodation is better than no accommodation—and, of course, the present time is a very difficult one to proceed in this matter in a big way—at the same time, it is very reassuring to hear from the Minister for Local Government that it is being tackled in what I believe is the best and most suitable manner.

Deputy Brodrick also mentioned the Galway Central Hospital. Of course, that matter was also under consideration long before the present Government took office; but we will forget all about that. I am very pleased to know that the plans have been approved, and I believe the work will be carried out as fast as possible. I hope nothing will interfere with it. What Deputy Brodrick said about patients lying on the ground is very true. Of course, we are a big county, and the hospital accommodation there is not at all sufficient for the demands. There were so many difficulties in the way that it was not easy to find a solution. We will remedy the situation now. That part of the business, I hope, is finished with, and there will be no need to hear any more about it here.

Deputy Brodrick made another point, which was emphasised by Deputy Meaney—I think it cannot be too strongly or too often brought to the notice of the Minister for Local Government—that is, the question of tarred roads. These roads undoubtedly have been a great benefit to the country. Nobody can deny that. They have given great facilities to the people; they have been a source of great employment; and they have opened stretches of country and brought them within easy distance of hospitals and towns to an extent which some of us hardly ever believed was possible; but now the question of horse traffic on the roads arises. Some people allege that if blacksmiths shoe the horses properly, the roads will be quite safe for horses. There is a certain type of horse, a good active horse, of which that is true, but the horses of the farmers are not generally of that active type. They are of a much heavier class and naturally fairly stiff. It does not matter how the blacksmith shoes them —even if he almost puts rubber shoes on them—they are so stiff that they get nervous and fall flat on the road. Anybody who tries to contend that that is not so, I hold, does not know what he is talking about. I do not want to blame anybody for that. We are in an age of progress and I suppose that a good deal of the steamrolling carried on for the past 20 years was to a large extent an experiment, but there is no reason why at this stage something should not be done to make the roads suitable for horse traffic, because horse traffic for the next three, four and, perhaps, five years will have to do the most of the heavy cartage over the roads.

A considerable amount of money— we are told that it is set aside from the Road Fund—has been expended on the easing of corners and the widening of roads. That is very laudable work and anybody would be inclined to approve of it. Nevertheless, a very large amount of money is expended in this way and from now on, for the duration of the emergency, such money would, in my opinion, be much more profitably diverted to the making of village roads—I mean by that, important village roads—and opening them up in such a way that the people residing in such places will have ready access to the market for their produce. Some people say that the minor relief schemes would cover that, but in many parts of the country, that is not so. We recently had a map down in the hall on which were shown the black and yellow areas. In the yellow areas, the unemployment problem is nothing like as grave as it is in the black areas, and consequently minor relief schemes do not apply.

Nevertheless, in the slack period of the year, I think it would be very valuable work and would give useful employment if a good deal of this money were spent on the type of roads I mention. I do not want it left to an individual county councillor, or to a number of county councillors, except to the extent that they would bring forward a motion dealing with it. After putting forward this motion, I believe the best thing to do would be to place the matter in the hands of the county surveyor, to ask him to take into account all the relevant considerations and to expend this money from year to year on that work. I think that would be very beneficial and I ask the Minister to consider it with a view to seeing if anything can be done on these lines.

Mr. O'Reilly

I want to say how glad I am that the question of tuberculosis has been raised, and that the Minister and many Deputies have spoken on the steps being taken in an effort to eradicate it. The previous Government and this Government have reason to congratulate themselves on the steps they took to alleviate human misery and disease. I think full advantage of the Local Government Acts was taken and they have done something from which the nation has reaped great benefit and of which they can be proud. I may be mistaken, but it is possible that Deputy Murphy thinks otherwise. I am sorry he is not here because he could put me right on the point, but it would be a pity if any Deputy was foolish enough to think otherwise than that any Government, no matter who constituted it, would always make every endeavour and use every available opportunity to improve conditions, and especially health conditions, in the country. I want to refer specially to the question of tuberculosis. In Meath, we have made very rapid advances in the elimination of diseases of a dangerous character, such as diphtheria, and anybody who reads the excellent report produced each year by the county medical officer of health will see clearly indicated the progress which has been made. Unfortunately, however, for one reason or another, that is not so in respect of tuberculosis, and if I were not aware that there was no indication of an improvement from official figures, I should possibly have to admit from my experience in passing through the county that we have not made any progress in that direction. I think it would be safer and better for all of us if we accepted that position, and endeavoured to see what steps we can take to improve it.

There are still in County Meath very many old thatched, mud-walled houses. Many of these houses did not come under the various Housing Acts or any other Acts. Some of them, during the later Government's time, were made economic by the provision of patches of land widely separated each from the other. The result is that none of these patches of land is large enough for building a house, and I know one or two cases of large families living in dilapidated houses such as I describe. I know one case of a house in which there is actually one person slowly dying from tuberculosis, and there are three or four younger people in the house. They are farmers with a certain poor law valuation, and, possibly because of that poor law valuation, they may be outside the orbit of any Acts which would relieve the situation. My view is that, at any cost, that house should be destroyed. It is useless taking that person, who is dying, away now, because that house is undoubtedly infected, and is a danger to the general public as well as to members of the family. If that house happens to be destroyed or burned, as it should be, these people have no means of building on the site.

There are other houses in which many deaths have occurred, houses mainly of that type, with a poor law valuation of something over £4 or £5. Some of these houses were repaired recently. They were repaired over old mud walls, and it is the general opinion that these houses are infected. I know one house in which three people died from tuberculosis, and at present a young family resides in it. These are matters which I want to bring to the notice of the Minister in case he might not be fully aware of these conditions. In respect of this disease, we seem to be putting up with one hand and pulling down with the other. I believe we require some uniformity in order to get control over it.

I know that it is heartrending to take a member of a family—a mother, brother or a sister—away from the home and isolate them, but I think there is no other way, provided we can be assured that the conditions under which such a person is isolated are made as happy and as pleasant as possible. I am very glad the Minister has announced that steps have been taken to try to help in eradicating this disease. It is one of the most tragic diseases there is and there does not seem to be any lessening of it in my county.

Mr. F. Crowley

I only wish to say a few words with regard to this Estimate. I have nothing to say with regard to the public health side of this Vote. I am perfectly satisfied with the working of the public health side and other sections dealing with local services, particularly the housing section. What I wish to speak about is the road section. The matter to which I am addressing my remarks is that on May 12th the Minister, in reply to a question addressed to him in this House by Deputy Kissane, with regard to representations concerning the very bad state of repair of the Listowel-Ballybunion road, said, among other things, that he regarded the persistent neglect of the county council to make adequate provision for road maintenance as a grave dereliction of their responsibilities, and that he was considering what further steps may be called for to deal with that situation. Very good. I shall now give the House the facts and figures, and let the House judge for itself. The average road expenditure in Kerry, for the past 12 years, was £85,200. In 1932 it stood at £58,623. Actually the figure had gone up to £97,878 in the year ending March, 1941.

That is the position with regard to road expenditure over the last 12 years. It stood at £58,000 in 1932, went up to an average of £85,000 over the past 12 years, and came to £97,000 for the year ending March, 1941. With regard to the number of motor vehicles of all classes licensed in Kerry, the number, for the year ending 31st December, 1941, was 5,440. In the first quarter of 1941 that figure fell down to 2,295, and the recent decision of the Minister for Supplies with regard to private motor cars has further reduced this figure for Kerry to a minimum. Now, with regard to the question of petrol: on the same date that the Minister for Local Government and Public Health replied to the question by Deputy Kissane, the Minister for Supplies stated that in normal times we used in this country 44,000,000 gallons of petrol, and that last year we could only get 20,000,000 gallons, while, this year, we would be lucky if we could get half the latter quantity.

When the Kerry County Council came to strike its rate, or at least when it came to the question of the Road Estimate, they said, in effect: "Very good. We are going to spend money according to the traffic on the roads," and they definitely decided to reduce the expenditure on the main tourist roads, in view of the serious curtailment of motor traffic, and to increase the expenditure on the county roads as being more important to the farmers at the present time, in view of the present position. Having regard to the figures I have given, I cannot understand, and I can see no justification whatever for the Minister saying what he did say. I shall go further than that, however, and say definitely that I cannot take the road section of his Department seriously at the present time, because my experience in the past 20 years has led me to believe that he had better look to his engineering service than to the road service.

I shall give one more illustration of the impossibility of the road section of that Department. Last year, the Kerry County Council got a series of notices from the Department to the effect that their road expenditure was not high enough to justify a grant. In February or March last, when it came to a question of striking an estimate for the coming year, lo and behold! a letter was received by the county council from the Department, informing them that last year's grant was not going to be given to them. Now, in the ordinary course of events, last year's grant was expended by the county council, and that immediately placed them in the position that they had to make provision to meet that. Well, if the Minister can stand over that action, he can stand over anything. It was only at that meeting of the county council that they were notified that the road grant for the outgoing year would not be given, although the county council had expended a sum covering that road grant.

I am taking this matter very seriously. For one thing, as a matter of course, the Minister should have replied to my letter, which I sent to him at his own request three weeks ago. I am taking the matter very seriously, and I want to know the reason why. As I have said, I certainly agree that the other sections of the Department are amongst the best in any Department, but I must stand over the attitude adopted by the Kerry County Council in regard to expenditure on roads.

There is no use in putting forward a plea to me that you want a certain amount of money to maintain the roads. I know that from past experience, but if you tell me that your road expenditure should be up to the normal year's expenditure, in view of the curtailment of motor traffic and, indeed, the practical wiping out of motor traffic on the roads, then I do not know what to think. I feel that, as a matter of ordinary courtesy, the Minister should have replied to my letter, which was submitted at his own request, and one of the most humiliating things that ever happened to me was being present at the Kerry County Council meeting, when they were notified that the grant would not be given for a road estimate for the coming year if it equalled last year's road estimate, and when the Department were approached on the telephone by the secretary of the county council, whom I accompanied, as to what figure in the road estimate would bring the grant for the coming year, the Department said that they could not answer. That is all I have to say.

Mr. Everett

I am sure that it must come as a surprise to the Minister, in his new office as Minister for Local Government and Public Health, to hear the criticism from so many members of the House of the administration of his Department. My conception of that Department, especially after 20 years of native government, is that it should be a helpful Department to public bodies, that it would assist public bodies in matters of difficulty, and advise them; but we have heard here tonight, from members of public bodies, that instead of being a Department to assist them, it appears to be a Department to create obstacles and opposition to all the wishes of public administrators. Of course, we have a number of Government supporters crying out for the abolition of public boards. We even have an allegation of corruption, and an appeal for the abolition of the Cork County Council and the substitution of the managerial system. I told the Minister, or his predecessor, in connection with the County Management Bill, that other Parties are opposed to that system, because it may bring chaos into the whole administration of public boards, and the people who are opposed to that system have not changed their opinions yet, notwithstanding the clamour of some Fianna Fáil Deputies for the abolition of public boards.

In my opinion the Department of Local Government is too big for one Minister. I think there should be two Ministers, one to administer the affairs of public boards and the other public health and social services, including, of course, the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act, national health insurance, tuberculosis and other such schemes. If the work were divided in that manner it would provide ample scope for two Ministers, and the administration, generally, would be more efficient. The Ministers would have more time to devote to the various matters requiring attention, and we would have less criticism of the Department throughout the country. There would be more respect, too, for its decisions. At the present time, irrespective of the political views held by the members of public boards, one hears comments made to the effect that the present system has practically broken down. Alarming statements are made in regard to the increase in the number of people suffering from tuberculosis. It is not due to any disposition on the part of people not to make known the fact that they are threatened with the disease. I think myself that the increase is largely due to the fact that so many of our people at the present time are suffering from malnutrition. It is hard at times to understand the attitude of the Government on this. Vast sums of money are spent on new houses with a view to improving the health of the people, but what we find is that many of our people are unable to pay for those houses. You have cases, too, where this dread disease has got into some of the new houses, for the reason that people have not the means to buy the nourishment that would build up their strength. In addition there is often a shortage of medicine.

Deputy O'Reilly referred to the county sanatoria. I am not in favour of them and never have been. There is one in my own constituency and, so far as advanced cases are concerned, it is really a home for the dying. Anybody affected and in a position to pay will try to secure a bed in the national sanatorium at Newcastle, which has not only the latest methods for dealing with tuberculosis but in which provision is made for the after-care treatment which is of the utmost importance. When patients leave that institution, the after-care treatment is maintained since a patient's local doctor gets instructions as to how it is to be carried out. Unfortunately, that national institution is not under the control of the Department. It would be far better, I think, if some of the money that is being spent on these county sanatoria were devoted to the enlargement of this national sanatorium so that it would be able to cater for a larger number of patients. I have nothing but the greatest respect for the members of the medical association, but in my view it is not possible to have patients properly looked after in these county sanatoria for the reason that the doctor attached to them is usually paid a very small salary and is not able to devote the attention to advanced cases that they need. He has other work to do. He may also hold the position of medical officer to the county hospital or to the county home. But in the national sanatorium at Newcastle you have surgeons there who devote their whole time and attention to lung and limb diseases, and I must say that some remarkable successes have been achieved there over the last 20 years.

Deputy O'Reilly congratulated the Government on their scheme for the treatment of tuberculosis and referred to the wonderful advances that have been made. I do not agree with him. I have been a member of insurance committees and sanatoria committees for the last 25 years, and in my view the treatment that was given to these cases in the old days under the national health scheme was far better than it is to-day because then you had the after-care and domicilary treatment. At the present time after-care treatment cannot be carried out because so many people are dependent on unemployment assistance or home assistance. In the old days the national health insurance committees provided assistance for after-care treatment, and it was very effective. What is the good in giving a patient 26 weeks' treatment in a sanatorium if he has to go back to his old surroundings? Suppose a son or a daughter has been a patient in the county sanatorium, what can be done for that patient when he or she goes home if the father is unemployed, and the home has to be maintained out of a little unemployment assistance or home assistance? There is no means of providing after-care treatment for that patient, so that the 26 weeks' treatment in the sanatorium is largely nullified. I think we are tackling the treatment of this disease at the wrong end. Huge sums of money are being spent in making available this 26 weeks' treatment, but the improvement hoped for is largely lost when no provision is made for after-care treatment. Insured persons had that in the old days, but under the amalgamation scheme they have been deprived of it. I hope the Minister will investigate these matters. I suggest to him that, instead of building more sanatoria, a greater effort should be concentrated on improving the national institution at Newcastle where sufferers from this disease get the most up-to-date treatment.

Is it any wonder that we should have an increase in sickness in the country when we think of the low wages paid to so many workers? Some time before the Order made under the Emergency Powers Act came into force, the Wicklow County Council passed a resolution recommending an increase of a few shillings a week in the wages of its workers. We knew that the Minister had no power to refuse sanction. We got legal opinion on that. The only power he had was to withhold grants. When the council received the threat that grants for road improvement would be withheld it reluctantly agreed to the Minister's Order. While the Department refused to give an increase of 2/6 to the workers, it sanctioned substantial increases in salary to the council's engineers and, within the last three months, those engineers have received substantial bonuses as well for their work in connection with turf production. The road workers get nothing while some of the engineers have got two increases. You have there class distinction, with the workers pointing out to the Government that it takes no interest in anybody except in well-paid and over-paid officials. In the case of building schemes in the County Wicklow, engineers have got as much as £1,500 and in other cases £500, and on top of that bonuses of £60. I hold that they were never entitled to that. Reports were sent up to the Department by committees of the council about certain officials, but no action was taken. The council is tired of reporting certain officials for their neglect of work over the past two years, but no action has been taken. I want to know why it is that certain people have a pull in a particular Department. There is no reply from the Department to reports from committees. In my view, if certain reports and information that were sent to the Department came directly to the Minister's knowledge, I would find it hard to understand why certain officials should not be dismissed, but the position is that no action is taken.

Notwithstanding that, one of these men received a bonus for work he never performed. When you have a large number of labouring men who are only in receipt of 30/- a week and the Government refuses to sanction an increase of a couple of shillings for them, it is no wonder that children are hungry and that certain religious organisations have to supplement the 30/- a week by contributions to enable them to buy clothes for their children at Confirmation time and other times. How can these men have any respect for public administration or government? These men are completely fed up with public administration and even with democratic government. I have heard them say: "What good is it? What can it do?" An Emergency Order is made preventing these unfortunate men from getting any increase to meet the increase in the cost of living. The Minister must know from the tenders being received by public bodies that the price of everything is increasing by leaps and bounds except the wages of these unfortunate men. The Minister cannot put up any argument that agricultural work is being interfered with. The county council are prepared at any time to release any of these men for agricultural work. If a farmer wishes to have any man in the spring time or harvest time, he is released. A resolution to that effect has been passed but I have never known any farmer to avail of it. There is no extra employment provided for these men by the council in the harvest time, so that the farmers have no excuse, as there are men available.

The Local Government Department is not the helpful Department we expect it to be; indeed, we get nothing but opposition from it. I know the Minister is a hard worker in his Department, and I hope he will inquire why that is so. Why are members of all Parties criticising and attacking the Department? Is it because there is too much work to be done in the Department? Is it that the work of the Department within the last 20 years, with all the new schemes that have been introduced, is too much for one man to control? I suggest that it is. I suggest that, instead of having a separate Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures, there should be a Minister for public health matters, especially after the war, when we may require the co-operation of every public-spirited man to help us over the difficult time we will be facing. I believe that that will be a serious time for our people. With the increase of social services, I believe it is humanly impossible for one man to give all the attention that is required in that Department. We know that public bodies criticise the Department, and it is rather a peculiar coincidence that the bodies which are loudest in their criticisms of the Department are those which are sure to be abolished.

How can the Minister stand over the action taken in the County Dublin, where a public official was suspended? What were the reports of the auditors in connection with the administration in that case? Were there not two or three auditors sent to report on the accounts of that body? Were these reports ever published, or did they come before the Minister? People have certain misgivings in connection with that matter. It was a peculiar coincidence that after that public official had been suspended for a considerable time and an inquiry held into his accounts, the suspension was removed. A miseri-cordiam appeal was made by the council to the Local Government Department, and within 24 hours a letter was sent out from the Department sanctioning a pension of £500 a year for that official. No wonder hardworking, conscientious officials say: "No matter what we do, there may be an inquiry held and we will be reprimanded if we carry out our work honestly and are not ‘yes men' for the Department."

I maintain that men in the public service would be better equipped than officials in the Minister's Department for appointment as commissioners. Instead of appointing men from the Department to these positions, good, competent officials could have been found in the service of public boards who should have been promoted to these positions. They know the whole routine of public administration, and are acquainted with the administration of the various Local Government Acts. They would be more in contact with the public, and would be more capable of carrying out the work than an official of the Department who would feel that he must carry out the wishes of the Department, because in a few years' time he will have to return to the Department in his official capacity. If an official from a public board were appointed to the position, he would know that he would have to go back to his position with the public board, and he would show more independence than an official of the Local Government Department. I do not intend to deal with the Cork case or any of the other cases which have been mentioned, because I know nothing about them.

But I do suggest to the Minister that there is a feeling amongst members of public boards that no matter what they recommend to the Department the Department will turn it down. I maintain that that is a wrong attitude on the part of the Department. As I said, I wish the Department to be an advisory and helpful Department. I do not deny that I have been courteously treated by the officials of the Department from time to time and have received help from them. But, generally speaking, I find that, on account of the abolition of public boards and the treatment accorded to suggestions coming from elected representatives, there is a feeling that the Local Government Department do not want publicly elected boards; that they want to have men who will carry out their wishes and give them an easy time. The Minister must know that that is the feeling throughout the country. It is no wonder that feeling is there in view of the two cases I have quoted. I also know cases of junior clerks with 35/- and £2 a week which they have to pay now for their lodgings. The Minister and the Department refused to grant any increase in these cases to meet the increased cost of living, as I have explained, while they gave bonuses to other well-paid officials. I ask the Minister to look into the complaints made in connection with this matter. He should help us to get out of our difficulties and try to put things right. We have asked for assistance from time to time. The Department puts all the blame on the public boards and abolishes them. But we have been forewarned and have made our complaints.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 16th June.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 3 Jun 1942