Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Nov 1942

Vol. 88 No. 14

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1942—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Mr. Linehan

I should like to refer to some of the statements made by the few people who came to the Minister's assistance with regard to Sunday opening. It was mentioned by Deputy Kennedy that the Sunday opening would affect the shop assistants. Deputy Kennedy's case was the only strong case made in opposing a reasonable opening on Sunday. He said if the licensed houses were to open on Sunday the assistants would have to work on Sunday the same as on other days of the week, and he indicated that there would be great hardship in that case. In a Bill like this, when you are trying to deal in a very general way with the intoxicating liquor business, you cannot allow yourself to be put off any particular principle by the reduction of an argument to some particular case. It may be said that any alteration of hours, whether on Sundays or week-days, is bound to dislocate the manner in which any business is run; but that is no answer to the arguments put forward in favour of a Sunday opening. Whatever affects the assistants or other people engaged in the business is purely a matter for the trade and not for the broad principle of legislation. When the first Bill was introduced and the split hour was imposed in the boroughs, you had somewhat similar arguments submitted. I cannot see any force in suggesting that there should be no country opening on Sunday just because it is going to affect the assistants. The Minister is aware that a great number of the licensed premises in rural districts are run by the owners and their wives and families.

The strongest point made on any side of the House in regard to Sunday opening, and I think it is the one point on which the Minister ought to give way, had reference to the due observance of the law. I think even Deputy Kennedy, who supported the Minister in his viewpoint, did not answer that part of the case. I have the feeling that when Deputy Kennedy mentioned that in his village there were different types of public houses, some that did not open on Sunday even for the bona fide trade and others that did, he was suggesting that an alteration of the Sunday hours would be completely for the benefit of the houses that catered already for the bona fide trade. I do not think that that would be so. There are quite a number of houses in the country that do not open on Sunday to cater for the bona fide trade just for the reason that they do not want to be bothered having to ask people at the door if they are travellers and where they came from, and having to satisfy themselves that by serving callers with drink they are acting within the law. I am quite satisfied that if there were reasonable hours of opening on Sunday in the rural areas the houses that at the moment do not open, even for the bona fide traffic, would be quite prepared to enter into normal trade competition by opening on Sunday afternoons.

So far as the hours are concerned, there has not been general agreement, even in the amendments, as to the proper hours for Sunday. There appear to be two sections of opinion, some who want a few hours in the afternoon in a continuous period, and others who would like an hour early in the day and a couple of hours in the evening. I do not think there is any great point in what hours the Minister decides upon so long as he grants some hours. I cannot quite understand why there should be such Ministerial objection to Sunday opening. I have tried to deal with this Bill, since it was introduced, as fairly as I could, and I have tried to look at it from the point of view of my experience in a professional capacity, being engaged in prosecutions under the Licensing Act and otherwise. I am convinced that a reasonable Sunday opening will strengthen the hands of the authorities.

Deputy O'Higgins said he was sure the Minister must have had experience of what could happen on a Sunday after a meeting. I am not concerned with whether the Minister was ever guilty of that type of breach of the licensing laws. What I am concerned with is the normal social life of the countryside. It is a recógnised fact that so long as a publican in the country is conducting his house properly, is not allowing people to get drunk and is not carrying on a noisy or a rowdy trade, the Guards will overlook people being allowed a certain amount of refreshment, and the reason for that attitude on the part of the Guards is that public opinion would not stand for anything else. If you allow reasonable hours of opening on Sunday, I am quite satisfied you will have public opinion behind you for the enforcement of the law during closing hours. The best thing in connection with any licensing legislation is to have the force of public opinion behind the Guards in dealing with breaches of the law during prohibited hours. As the law stands at the moment, they have not got a lot of moral force behind them and, if the Minister can do anything to improve that position, it will be much appreciated by the people.

I do not think there is anything in Deputy Kennedy's point about the assistants. In the towns to which he is referring—it is certainly so in the south—I am sure 75 per cent. of the licensed houses are run by the men who own them and by the members of their families. I think I would be safe in saying that in the rural areas there would be about one assistant employed for every 500 licensed houses. If there is any question of hardship on assistants, if there is any difficulty about the treatment assistants should get, it is a purely internal matter for the trade and not a matter affecting the broad principles of this Bill.

I do not like to press this matter any further. I am very anxious to hear from the Minister what his views are as regards Sunday opening. As I said, the Minister took the first step in the right direction in respect of the first one-third of the Bill—closing hours. We are now in the second critical stage —Sunday opening; and we shall meet later on the third stage on which, I understand, he is not as firm as he was. I should like to hear whether he has any stronger reason than I have heard for the continuation of what really is discrimination against the rural areas. I should like to put to him that if he were to agree to Sunday opening, it need not necessarily be based on fixed hours applying to the whole country. If public houses in rural areas are permitted to open for three hours on Sunday, I suggest that the hours be fixed by the justice at the annual licensing court on the application of the superintendent of the Gárda, to whom representations could be made as to what hours were suitable for particular districts. That would be an easy way of dealing with it. My experience of district justices and Gárda superintendents with regard to the question of area exemption orders is that they have been very fair and very good, and in a matter like this their assistance would be very valuable. As I say, I am trying to approach this matter as fairly as I can, and I would like to hear from the Minister if he has any weightier reasons for the continuance of complete Sunday closing in rural areas than we have so far heard.

Donnchadh O Briain

Ba mhaith liom focal do rá ar an scéal so maidir le cead do thabhairt do thithe tábhairne oscailt Dé Domhnaigh fén dtuaith. Is dóigh liom gur ceart an dlí d'fhágáil mar atá fé láthair. Níl fhios agam—agus tá mé im' chomhnaí fén dtuaith leis na blianta—go bhfuil aon éileamh ag na daoine fén dtuaith ar aon fháil ar dhigh a bheith acu níos mó ná mar atá fé láthair acu. Tá an scéal maith go leor mar atá sé fé láthair agus bfhearr liom é d'fhágáil mar atá. Táim ar aon aigne leis na Teachtaí eile a mhol é sin, ach tá eagla mo chroidhe orm nach mar sin don mhór-chuid Teachtaí atá ag tathant ar an Aire maidir leis an tairisgint seo cead do thabhairt do na tithe tábhairne oscailt fén dtuaith Dé Domhnaigh. Níl aon bheirt acu ar aon aigne mar gheall ar cad tá uatha, cad iad na huaire ba cheart a bheith ann.

Chuala mé a lán cainnte annso nuair a bhí an Bille fé dhíospóireacht an tseachtain seo ghaibh tharainn mar gheall ar an ngá atá le deoch do bheith ar fáil ag daoine fén dtuaith Dé Domhnaigh. Ní thuigim go bhfuil an géar-ghá sin ar na daoine. Ní duine mise atá i gcoinne an té a ólas braon anois is arís, nuair ná téigheann sé thairis sin. Tá a lán daoine sa tsaol so nach féidir leo bheith sásta leis an mbeagán, ach, mar atá an scéal fé láthair, níl oiread óil fé láthair agus a bhí fadó, 30, 40 no 50 bliain ó shoin. Is dócha go bhfuil athrú tagaithe ar mheon na ndaoine. B'fhearr liom an scéal fhágáil mar atá sé fé láthair agus gan aon athrú do dhéanamh ar an dlí. Tá a fhios againn go léir go bhfuil laige in áiteanna annso agus annsúd agus ná cuirtear an dlí i bhfeidhm mar is ceart. Má déantar athrú ar an dlí, mar ba mhaith le Teachtaí áirithe, beidh an scéal céanna againn.

Gearóid O Beoláin

Tá an ceart agat.

Donnchadh O Briain

Níl aon amhras orm go mbeidh daoine ag iarraidh deoch fháil tar éis na huaire go bhfuil cead acu é fháil Dé Domhnaigh no lá ar bith eile sa tseachtain. Sin tréith a bhaineann leis an gcine daonna agus níl aon dul thairis. Molaim don Aire an dlí fhágáil mar atá sé, i dtaobh ólacháin fén dtuaith Dé Domhnaigh agus go mór-mhór Lá 'le Pádraig.

Mr. Dillon

Surely Deputy O Briain would not wish to leave the law as it is at present in respect of the bona fide traffic? Surely he agrees that the Minister on the whole is right in doing away with the bona fide trade, and in fixing regular hours of opening? I am glad that the Minister proposes to do away with the bona fide traffic. I think he is perfectly right in that decision.

Donnchadh O Briain

I was speaking only in so far as Sunday opening is concerned.

Mr. Linehan

We are dealing only with Sunday opening.

Mr. Dillon

I take it that Deputy O Briain means that he would prefer the Bill as it stands, without the amendment proposed, and not the law as it stands.

An Ceann Comhairle

I might inform the Deputy that an agreement was come to at the outset of business that the different categories of the schemes set out in the amendments would be segregated. At present in connection with amendments Nos. 8, 17 and 18, the question under consideration is the hours of opening on Sunday, outside county boroughs. The bona fide business generally will be discussed later.

Mr. Dillon

I am much obliged. The net question is whether we ought to open public houses in country towns on Sunday or not?

An Ceann Comhairle

Quite.

Mr. Dillon

Does any Deputy seriously say to me that he believes it will bring about an improvement in the rural life of Ireland if we open every public house for three hours on Sunday? If the publicans were not one of the greatest vested interests in the country, and if Deputies were not all getting ready for a general election, how many of them would get up and maintain that? Does not every one know that you have your tongues in your cheeks when you say that? What wild thirst has come upon the people that they have to go racing into the towns of rural Ireland at present to get a drink on Sunday?

I have lived for the past 30 years in rural Ireland, and the people have been able to get along very well. I have never seen these bicycle brigades sweeping three miles along the roads to get a drink. What Deputy has ever seen them? Can he name one neighbour in his parish who has habitually got on a bicycle to travel three miles in order to get a drink?

Mr. Linehan

He need not travel three miles to get a drink. He can get it in his own town.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Linehan can be very glib about these matters. I am living in the country. I am a publican in the country. I make my living by selling porter across the counter, and I know my neighbours. I know well what I am talking about. Does anyone in this House seriously contend that it will improve the standard of morality or the amenities of rural Ireland to open the public houses for three hours on Sunday? I say that it will not. I am one of those who believe that some of the decentest men in this country are publicans. Any old nationalist—and I pride myself on being one—knows that, because whenever we were in a tight jam in the old days, it was to the publicans we went, and when some of the patriots were thumping their craws, it was the publicans who put up the money to keep the flag flying, when the patriots would not give you three-halfpence. I am for the publicans; I am a publican myself, and anything I can do to help the licensed trade I shall be glad to do out of gratitude to men whose names are green in my memory at this moment, but no Deputy believes that it would be a salutary thing for the people or for the publicans to open the public houses for three hours on Sunday.

Mr. Killilea

Speak for yourself.

Mr. Dillon

Damn well I know, and I can speak for the Deputy too, if he had the pluck to get up and speak the truth. Let him go down and consult the parish priest and the women in his own parish. Let him ask them if they want their husbands trailing into the public houses when they come out from last Mass and staying there until their dinners are cold.

Mr. Killilea

Does the Deputy seriously contend that that does not happen at present?

Mr. Dillon

I shall come to that in one minute. There are in every parish two or three drunks who will come down the chimney, if you lock the door, to get a drink. The fellows who are slipping into the shebeens through the back door and breaking the law because, they cannot resist the temptation to get a drink are "drunks". For the fellow who has to slide in through the back door to get a drink and who cannot keep within the bounds of the law because his thirst has got the better of him, the proper description is a "drunk". Those who frequent shebeens and public houses outside licensed hours and go rolling home to their wives "half shot" are "drunks". I know them just as well as the Deputy. I do not believe that anybody's interests will be served by opening the public houses in rural Ireland on a Sunday. But, if you are going to do it, at least make sure that you will get the public houses closed at the hours you fix, because that is the real problem in rural Ireland at present. I would not so much mind what hours you fix if you get the Gárdaí to close the public houses at the hours at which they ought to be closed, because it is a scourge and a persecution in rural Ireland to find the same half a dozen fellows in every parish with their wives complaining to the parish priest that their week's wages are being spent in the public house. In 99 per cent. of cases the bulk of that money is spent after official hours. The great evil in rural Ireland at present is the failure of the Gárdaí to enforce the closing hours in all public houses.

Mr. Linehan

Or the lack of public opinion behind the licensing laws.

Mr. Dillon

Lack of public opinion my foot. If the Gárdaí did their duty, the public houses would be closed quickly enough. I saw a case in rural Ireland in which a Gárda sergeant was sent around to close public houses at the closing hour. That man, who never took a drink in his life, after six months was a dipsomaniac. Perhaps the Minister knows the case I am talking about.

A Deputy

It was poteen.

Mr. Dillon

Whatever it was, the devil the many public houses he will close for the rest of his days. The rest of the Gárdaí are trying to keep him out of the public houses instead of his trying to keep the people out of them. I do not agree with Deputy Linehan that there is any lack of public opinion about the closing of public houses at a reasonable hour. I do not know Deputy Linehan's part of the country, but I know my own. There is no sympathy whatever, either amongst the members of the licensed trade itself, or amongst the public, for the individual who is habitually breaking the law by serving customers after the legal hours. No respectable house in this country is run on the basis of serving drink to casual customers after the legal hours. The houses that are doing that are doing it because they cannot get people to deal with them during the legitimate hours, as the stuff they are selling is so rotten that the people would not drink it if they could get anything else. I know what I am talking about. I know the houses which are opening and I know what they are selling. I know what they are putting into what they are selling, and the best they put into it is spring water.

Enforcement is the vital necessity. I do not think that the question of the hours you fix is of such prime importance; but whatever hours you fix let them be enforced. I have always been inclined to sound the praises of the Gárda Síochána in this House, because there is much in what they do that is deserving of the highest encomiums. But certainly their enforcement of the licensing law does not come within that category. There is a variety of reasons why it is alleged that they are not able to enforce it. I am sorry to say that I do not believe they will hold water. I do not agree with Deputy Linehan that it is because there is a lack of public support. There is not. I know my neighbours too well. If it were not public spirit that would make my neighbours rejoice at the enforcement of the licensing laws, it would be jealousy. That is the next most powerful motive which stirs the human heart. They delight in seeing a neighbour caught. The Gárdaí need not worry. Every time they "nab" a publican, half the town will rejoice that So-and-so is caught at last.

Mr. Linehan

They must be a nice bunch of people.

Mr. Dillon

We do not live amongst the Cork angels, but amongst the simple Connaught men. There is a general election coming on and Deputy Linehan has to represent the decent men of North Cork as being of an exceptional calibre. Who will blame him?

Mr. Linehan

I did not say half as much about decency as you did when you were talking of the green spots.

Mr. Dillon

I am not talking about publicans now. I say to the Minister that enforcement of the law is the first thing. I say to him that he ought to sit tight and have the public houses shut on Sunday. He will get a lot of abuse for doing it. But the vast majority of the people who do not make themselves heard will be profoundly grateful to him. I know of no considerable section of the community in rural Ireland—and I know this country very well—who really want opening on Sunday. My experience of rural Ireland leads me to advise the Minister that, if he opens the public houses on Sunday, he will confer no valuable amenity on anyone, but impose a good deal of unwanted competitive work on the members of the licensed trade, and he will create an evil the full magnitude of which I am not prepared to forecast with any degree of precision.

There is an important point of principle raised as well. I know that matters of principle are not matters which commend themselves to Deputy Linehan; he thinks them all "cod", and that we should not worry about them. But, just as there is in the School Attendance Bill an important point of principle, this Bill has an important point of principle in it too. I am no sabbatarian. I believe that everybody should enjoy himself on Sunday within certain limits. I do not believe that we should take up the Puritan view that you should not cook a dinner on Sunday, that you should have nothing but cold meat for fear anybody would raise his hand in servile work of any kind. But I think in a Catholic country no servile work should be undertaken on Sunday except that servile work which is manifestly and genuinely necessary. I suggest to Deputies that it is not an urgent necessity that there should be imposed on small publicans or their employees the duty of discharging the servile work of drawing pints of porter for thirsty citizens of the State on a Sunday; that standing behind your counter for four hours on a Sunday trying to earn your living is servile work. There may be an urgent necessity for men like tram drivers, ambulance drivers or something of that kind, working on Sunday. Persons holding the Catholic faith have a reasonable and rational attitude towards the problem, and where the necessity is great, no objection is raised. But I think there is a point beyond which we ought not to impose on people the obligation of doing servile work on Sundays when there is no necessity for it. Certain Deputies will say that this is purely permissive; that under this Bill no publican need open his house if he does not want to. That is all "cod". If one opens, they all have to open, because one man cannot tell his neighbours to go away when the publican next door bids them welcome. He knows well that that is the way trade is built up. If one opens his door, they all must open.

I am aware that in the practical down-to-earth atmosphere of this House anyone who dares to mention a matter of principle of this kind is looked upon as a half fool. But questions of principle do matter. They matter with regard to the licensed trade just as much as with regard to anything else. Where is this clamorous demand for opening on Sunday? I have not heard it in the country. I submit that there are at least three formidable arguments which I brought forward to be met before the demand is even considered. Then there ought to be some evidence laid before the House that any considerable body of the citizens want this before we establish it. I know of none at all. Accordingly, I urge the Minister to stick his heels in the ground and stand pat on his original proposal. Let me say to him that no matter what he proposes in regard to the reform of the law in this matter he will find it difficult to get it through.

The late Kevin O'Higgins, when he was putting a licensing Bill through this House, was regarded as the worst in the world. He was denounced in all quarters. I doubt very much if many people looking back on the licensing Bill carried through this House by Kevin O'Higgins have anything but respect for the memory of the man who had the moral courage to carry it through. If many of the provisions of that Bill had been followed up with greater persistency than his successors had the courage to show, the situation of the licensed trade would be a great deal better than it is now. The Minister is going to meet a barrage similar to that which he took a part in directing at the late Kevin O'Higgins. I do not mean personally, but as a member of the Opposition of the day. I believe he is a man of moral courage who is prepared to face that if he is convinced of the necessity of so-doing. I think in regard to this matter of Sunday opening he will be well advised to set his face against it and say he will not do it. If subsequently it transpires that there is a clamorous demand for liquor refreshment on Sunday, we can consider it in a new Bill. I do not believe that such a demand will ever manifest itself. I think many hundreds of people, including the vast majority of publicans, will bless him if he puts an end to Sunday opening altogether.

The vast majority of small publicans in rural Ireland do not want it, but if some of them get that facility, they will all have to work, whereas, if none of them are allowed to open on Sundays they will be able to earn their living on the other six days of the week. So far as the public is concerned, nobody, except the chronic "drunks", will be bothered about Sunday closing, I am quite sure, and, so far as I am concerned, I think we ought not to be very much worried about the needs of the chronic "drunks".

Mr. O'Donovan

Deputy Dillon seems to forget that there is a differentiation in this country, and that some have an advantage that others have not. The fact is that many people have every facility for getting drink on a Sunday—people who are not deserving of it and who have no work to do— while others, in the rural areas, who are at least equally deserving, cannot get it. The Deputy is basing his case on the ten in a parish who are chronic "drunks", but he is forgetting about the other 90 who, by their work, are carrying this country on their backs, and who cannot have a drink, from Sunday to Sunday, by reason of the nature of their work. The Deputy must know that the work these people do is slavish work, and yet he says that they are not entitled to a drink on a Sunday, whereas the people in Dublin City or Cork City can drink to their hearts' content. I cannot understand Deputy Dillon's attitude in condemning the 90 decent people because there are ten chronic "drunks" in a parish.

I am appealing to the Minister to give these 90 people in a country parish the same opportunity that is given to the people in the cities, because it must be remembered that these 90 people have to work on Sunday morning, Sunday evening and, possibly, during midday on Sunday, because the nature of their work demands it. Cows must be milked, hens must be fed, outhouses must be cleaned, and so on, and yet those who have nothing to do on a Sunday, except to go gallivanting around in the cities, are entitled to drink to their hearts' content, while the people to whom I am referring, who have to work so hard, are not entitled to a drink. That is a mentality that I cannot understand, and I am appealing on behalf of the people who are entitled to have their drink in peace and comfort.

We all know that there are abuses at the moment. The Minister, Deputy Dillon, and every Deputy in this House know that there are abuses, and the Minister must know that, so long as conditions remain as they are at the moment, the publican will have one eye on the door and the other looking out for the Gárdaí, whereas, if the public houses were open during the hours we are pleading for in the country towns, those abuses would disappear, because the decent people to whom I am referring could come in and take their few pints in comfort and case and then go home to their work. I hope the Minister will agree to this and then see to it that the law will be strictly enforced afterwards and that there will be no such thing as watching the back doors once definite closing hours are fixed. As Deputy Linehan suggested, the hours could be arranged by the local district justices You cannot fix hours that would suit the whole country. What would suit one part of the country would not suit another, but I hope the Minister will consider this and give a chance to the people who are really deserving.

Deputy Dillon mentioned the 1927 Act, but if this principle had been accepted in that Act, I feel sure that you would not have had the breaches of the law that are occurring at present. Deputy Kennedy claimed that the bartenders would have to work overtime. Now, as he knows very well, in a country public house the bartender has to be there all day, watching for somebody who might want a pint to be handed out to him. Under this arrangement, instead of having to be on the watch from morning to night, they would only have the four hours to work on a Sunday.

These four hours are what I am appealing for, to enable the rural worker —the man who cannot get a drink from Sunday to Sunday, and who is entitled to a drink—to have a pint or two in peace and comfort. I think that the case for this amendment has been so well and ably put by the Deputies who have spoken that it is unanswerable. Deputy Donnchadh O Briain said, in effect, that everything was maith go leór, but I say that it is not good enough, and that if this amendment were accepted, it would certainly tend to make things much better in the country.

Mr. Kennedy

I pointed out that under present conditions 60 to 70 per cent. of the traders in the country do not open for any kind of trade on Sunday.

Mr. Davin

Question?

Mr. Kennedy

Well, whatever percentage you like.

Mr. Davin

What about the back-door trade?

Mr. Kennedy

My point is that, by opening for trade on Sundays, you are doing away with the Sabbath, the day of rest, and the people who work behind the counters of the country public houses should have some chance of recreation. Then, no matter what arrangements you may come to with regard to hours, there is still the question of redundant public houses in the country, and many of these publicans indulge in the kind of trade with which Deputy Dillon dealt so effectively. These people are prepared to supply the toper who will come in, no matter what hours you have, and the great mistake in the 1927 Act was that there was no provision for compensating these people and letting them get out of the business. During the Second Reading I asked the Minister to reintroduce that principle in this Bill, and I again ask him to do so. If he does so, he will be doing a service to the nation and to the people of the nation, and he would certainly get the applause of the people of the nation if he were to deal with the towns where there is a superabundance of public houses.

Mr. Cooney

I want to refer to a remark that Deputy Hannigan found it advisable to make earlier in the discussion, as to opposing an extension of the hours in the city.

Mr. Dillon

I think that we are talking about the extension of hours in the country.

Mr. Cooney

These remarks of mine are in the nature of an explanatory statement. I am sorry that I did not hear Deputy Dillon's speech. Deputy Hannigan opposed the extension of hours for week-days in county boroughs. His main argument was that it was a retrograde step, particularly retrograde in so far as the employees in the licensed trade were concerned.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not in this amendment.

Mr. Cooney

Deputy Hannigan now trims his sail to support this amendment. I want to make that point. He is supporting this amendment. I want to say to Deputy Hannigan and others that there is a great responsibility on every Deputy in this House when they are dealing with questions of social legislation. I claim that this is a very important piece of social legislation and our clear duty, to my mind, is to face up to the facts, irrespective of what the results may be to ourselves as individuals or to our Parties. I only want to make this point and, if the Minister cannot give way, I, as a member of the Party, will have to go into the Lobby against this amendment, but my reason for supporting this amendment is that I would like to see a code of social legislation enacted here that the Guards will be able to enforce. That is my point, the only point, and I think it has been made from many sides of the House. I am perfectly certain that, perhaps within the next 20 years, all these cranks that Deputy Fionán Lynch referred to will come around a table and face up to the realities of the situation. If we are ever to get anywhere in this country, the first thing we must do is to ensure that any law enacted in this Parliament will be one that can be enforced. To have it enforced, it must have the respect of the people, and must suit the ordinary convenience of the ordinary people. Restrictive legislation is a very dangerous thing, even in licensing. This is a public service. A Deputy on these benches, who is well known never to have taken a drink, speaking as a public representative, informed this Parliament that every Sunday he was breaking the law, and had to do it, in order to meet his constituents to consider and discuss matters affecting the particular area in which he lives. That is a very serious matter. For these reasons, I would ask the Minister to reconsider it.

Dr. Hannigan

I know Deputy Cooney is on the defensive and I do not want to press him too hard on the matter——

Mr. Cooney

Do not worry about Deputy Cooney.

Dr. Hannigan

——but I took the Deputy to task for ignoring the representations made to him.

Mr. Cooney

By whom?

Dr. Hannigan

With regard to the conditions of employment of the Grocers' Assistants' Union.

Mr. Cooney

Who made the representations to me? On a point of order, A Leas-Chinn Comhairle, I think when a Deputy says that representations were made to me by an organisation he should quote when, where and how they were made and who made them. I have not yet received them.

Dr. Hannigan

Will the Deputy deny that he received representations?

Mr. Cooney

I certainly did not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Both Deputies might come back to the amendment.

Dr. Hannigan

I am not going to allow Deputy Cooney to misrepresent my statement in the matter. I was very deeply concerned in correcting the impression which Deputy Cooney tried to create, namely, that the members of this union were viewing this Bill entirely from the standpoint of their own sectional interest in the matter. I said, and I repeat, that that is very far from being the case. The recommendations coming from that quarter are based on what this union regard to be the public requirements in the matter, and I have contended that they are in at least as good a position as anybody else to determine what the public requirements are in the matter of the supply of intoxicating liquor.

Mr. Davin

I invite the Minister, when he is replying, to take the House into his confidence and to give us—I am sure he has it in his possession—a summary of the reports received from the Gárdaí as to the extent of the abuses—and the Gárdaí must know that they exist—under the present administration of the Intoxicating Liquor Act of 1927. Does the Minister know, or does he admit, the extent to which the existing legislation is being ignored by the citizens of the State? By that I mean, has he any information as to the extent that people have been using back-door methods to get drink in public houses in their own localities over a period of years? The Minister, if he knows anything about his own area, must admit that abuses do exist in the rural areas. I would like Deputy Dillon to answer this: Is it better, for the sake of the administration of the licensing laws, to have public houses opened for a reasonably limited period on Sunday than to have people, as they are at the present time, using the back doors of these public houses to get the refreshments they require?

Mr. Dillon

And does the Deputy think the tulips who use the back door will stop using the back door because you open the front door for three hours? If you were to open the front door for 23 hours they would use the back door to get in for the 24th hour.

Mr. Cooney

The Guards would have a chance of doing their job.

Mr. Davin

I invite Deputy Dillon to tell us whether he approves of the existing practice that has obtained over a considerable period of years, whereby large numbers of people who think they are entitled to get refreshments are obliged to travel three miles, and to exchange population, for that purpose.

Mr. Dillon

I thing that is all "cod." Everybody agrees it is all "cod". The bona fide traffic is all “cod” in modern conditions.

Mr. Cooney

What are you going to do about it?

Mr. Dillon

Cannot you keep the public houses closed for 24 hours on Sunday?

Mr. Davin

Does Deputy Dillon realise that the practice I have referred to exists at the present time, and has existed over a period of years?

Mr. Dillon

Of people travelling over three miles—I never saw them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Davin should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Davin

I suppose Deputy Dillon speaks here with some knowledge of what is going on in his own constituency, and he makes the amazing statement that he knows nothing about the existing practice of exchanging populations on Sundays for the purpose of getting drink. Every Deputy in this House—no matter what view he may take of the proposals contained in this Bill—knows that that has been going on in his own area. When I say that, I mean the areas represented by rural Deputies. Is it desirable that that should be ended or does the Minister approve of what is going on at the present time?

Mr. Dillon

Would the Deputy say how many fellows out of his parish travel three miles in order to get a drink every Sunday?

Mr. Cooney

How many get them without travelling?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Davin should not be interrupted.

Mr. Davin

I am sorry to say I could not answer that trap question, but I do know it is going on for a long period of years, before the 1927 Act was brought in. When buses were running from Dublin to Limerick and from Dublin to Cork, large numbers of individuals would get in at one particular town and were carried on the outward journey to the next town— three miles or more—the limit laid down in the Act of 1927. If you came back by the return bus that night, you would see the same people coming back from the town to which they went in the morning for the purpose of getting drink.

Mr. Kennedy

Not 5 per cent. of the population.

Mr. Dillon

Not 1 per cent. of one-tenth.

Mr. Davin

Deputy Dillon stated that it did not exist. Now, apparently, he agrees with Deputy Kennedy and says that it exists amongst 5 per cent. or 10 per cent. I am not speaking on behalf of any member of my Party, but when moving the amendment I stated that I would be prepared to do away with bona fide traffic on Sunday if there was some approach by the Minister. If he would agree to any reasonable number of hours, less than the number suggested, for general opening on Sunday, I would be prepared, in response to such an offer, to do away with bona fide traffic. I deplore the exchange of population that goes on continuously over a long period in midland counties. I have no knowledge of conditions in the area represented by Deputy Dillon, but I speak with a fairly intimate knowledge of what is going on in my area, and I should like to end it. If there is general opening for a limited period on Sunday, public houses that are not closed after that could be dealt with. It would also be easier to administer the law and to get co-operation from people who believe that they are entitled to reasonable facilities for obtaining refreshments. The matter was reasonably put by Deputy O'Higgins. He has perhaps greater experience than I have of the abuses that exist. Deputy O'Higgins knows as much as I do about what is going on in my constituency. The Deputy said he would like shorter hours on Sunday than 2 to 6 p.m., and I will not quibble about that, so long as there is some limited period of opening that will do away with a considerable amount of the abuse that has been going on for years. May I put another point to Deputy Dillon when he harps on this question? How does he justify the contents of the Bill?

Mr. Dillon

I have nothing to do with the drafting of the Bill.

Mr. Davin

I presume Deputy Dillon is in favour of the opening hours in the City of Dublin?

Mr. Dillon

I know nothing about them.

Mr. Davin

That is all "rot", or, to use an expression that Deputy Dillon frequently uses in this House, "codology". The Deputy knows that reasonable facilities have been afforded for getting refreshments in the City of Dublin and in other places for a long period. If the Deputy agrees with that, on what grounds does he refuse to give the same facilities, or facilities of a limited nature, in rural areas? This Bill proposes to extend the facilities for drinking in cities as against the present hours, but restricts the facilities for Sunday drinking in rural areas.

Mr. Allen

In what way?

Mr. Davin

I will not quibble over the hours or the period if the Minister agrees to Sunday opening. That is a question for the majority to decide. If that is conceded, as far as I am concerned, I would agree that the bona fide business on Sundays should be abolished, as I think it is generally abused. All decent licensed traders would favour that.

Mr. Kennedy

Opening for all?

Mr. Davin

Whatever reasonable period is agreed to by the Minister, all premises should close down after that. Publicans who then break the law could be dealt with. The hours in the amendment, if agreed to, would end many of the abuses that exist in rural areas.

Mr. Allen

In his original statement on the amendment Deputy Davin gave away the case for opening on Sundays, when he said he advocated it because it would be a suitable day on which people could trade; as instead of wasting a working day they should be allowed to go into the towns and villages to shop on Sundays. I wonder if Deputy Davin believes that it would be in the general interests of the community that the whole population of the rural areas should sweep into the towns on Sundays to do their shopping.

Mr. Davin

I did not actually say that.

Mr. Allen

That was the suggestion. Public houses sell groceries, hardware and drapery, and as a result you would have all the shops open, and Sunday as the Sabbath day would be done away with. It would mean seven working days. The Labour Party quite rightly advocate a certain amount of rest for working people, but Deputy Davin unintentionally or otherwise is advocating a seven-day working week.

Mr. Davin

On a point of order, I did not say that.

Mr. Allen

I will not give way to the Deputy.

Mr. Davin

In fairness to me the Deputy will admit that I never referred to the opening of hardware or drapers' shops.

Mr. Dillon

Are not half the public houses in the country also hardware shops?

Mr. Allen

Deputy Davin suggested that instead of people doing their shopping on week days they should be allowed to come in from the country to shop on Sundays. Did the Deputy suggest that?

Mr. Davin

I did.

Mr. Allen

If people are entitled to buy groceries, then they are entitled to buy hardware, drapery, and everything that shopkeepers sell in every town and village. That is the really serious objection to the opening of public houses in the country on Sundays. The Deputy must admit that. If these houses are thrown open for the sale of drink, it must be remembered that there is scarcely a public house outside Dublin and the county boroughs that does not sell other goods. It is only in Dublin that licensed houses are confined to the sale of drink. Not a dozen licensed houses will be found in the towns that do not sell drink, drapery and hardware. It is a temptation and an incentive to people to go into these places to invite them to get their requirements on Sundays when the Guards cannot stop them. No legislation can stop them if the public houses are opened on Sundays. People will be trooping into them and staying there all day. The next demand will be to hold fairs on Sundays.

Mr. Davin

Does not that happen on Church holidays?

Mr. Allen

We are dealing with Sundays now. I can boast that in the Diocese of Ferns no public houses are open on Church holidays, and no fairs are held on these days. I do not know if that happens in other dioceses. I expressed my opinion of this Bill on the Second Stage, and I think I was the only Deputy to suggest to the Minister that he should not give way on this question. Deputy Davin thinks that I have a one-track mind, and that I am a crank.

Mr. Davin

I did not say that.

Mr. Allen

I am proud of the fact that I am a crank, and that I may have a one-track mind on this question. I think if Deputy Davin and others who advocate Sunday opening of public houses ponder over the position seriously they will come to the same decision. I believe the country is getting on very well without Sunday opening. Every Deputy can visualise what an abuse Sunday opening would be. If the public houses are thrown open on Sundays in small villages that will encourage working people and agricultural workers to go into these houses and spend their week's wages there. There will be greater abuses than exist now, and the wives and families of these men will have much to say to the Government and to the Minister that allowed Sunday opening. When there is no work being done there is a temptation to agricultural labourers after a hard week's work to go and spend their week's wages in public houses. The number of people throughout the country demanding the Sunday opening of public houses would not be half of 1 per cent., while the number would be infinitesimal in any town or village. I am speaking about rural areas, and I say that not three people in any village want to drink on Sundays. To throw open public houses and invite congregations to go into them after Mass would be bad for the country and bad for Government, and this House would not be justified in giving such facilities.

The main burden of the arguments advanced by the Deputies opposite was that the public houses in the country should be open on Sunday because the Dublin public houses are open on Sunday. What they were really advocating was that the Dublin public houses should be closed, but they were not prepared, in so many words, to say that. They all suggested that there was a certain amount of jealousy between the countryman and the City of Dublin man.

Mr. Linehan

Is the Deputy advocating that the public houses in Dublin should be closed?

Mr. Allen

I am not, but I would like to remind the Deputy, and others, that there are very few people through the country who are aware that the public houses in Dublin or Cork open on Sundays.

Mr. Linehan

Was the Deputy ever at an All-Ireland final?

Mr. Allen

I am certain that if a plebiscite of the people were taken on this question in the morning 99.9 per cent of them would vote for a continuance of the existing law in regard to Sunday closing. I would be prepared to stand on a platform with Deputy Davin in any village in this country and have that question put to the people. If that were done, I am sure that the majority of the people present would support the keeping closed of the public houses on Sundays.

Mr. Davin

Will the Deputy answer this question? Why is he prepared to increase the opening hours in Dublin on Sundays as proposed in the Bill?

Mr. Allen

The reason given for that is to prevent the city people going out into the country to get drink. The Minister has already stated that. It is an attempt to prevent the abuses that have been occurring around the City of Dublin and other cities. The proposal to extend the opening hours in cities on Sundays by two or three hours is an effort to shorten the period available to those who have been going out to villages around Dublin and other cities to get drink.

Mr. Davin

Why give the people in Dublin an extension of two hours to get drink?

Mr. Cooney

Is not Dublin the capital of the State, with more than 500,000 of a population?

Mr. Allen

Two-thirds of the population never leave Dublin.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think the Deputy is now going beyond the terms of the amendment.

Mr. Dillon

I think that the Deputy has a perfect right to answer the questions that are being put to him.

Mr. Allen

I did not bring in the question of Sunday opening. Every Deputy who has spoken on the amendment mentioned the question of Sunday opening in the Cities of Dublin and Cork, and I think I am entitled to do the same. I do not think there is anything wrong about it. No case has been made for Sunday opening in the country. Every licensed trader whom I have spoken to within the last fortnight is, without exception, opposed to it. They all told me that Sunday is the only day they have for recreation both for themselves and their families. They are tied up for six days of the week, and are glad to have Sunday free to go to the seaside or elsewhere. They told me that if the public houses were allowed to open on Sunday it would mean that they would be tied up in them for seven days of the week.

Mr. Davin

Why do they open the back door on a Sunday to sell drink?

Mr. Allen

Ninety-seven per cent. of them never do that.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Allen

Even if the Minister were to agree to Deputy Davin's demand, I am sure that 97 per cent. of those licensed traders would not open on a Sunday. As Deputy Dillon has said, you will always have 2 or 3 per cent. of them who will be looking for the stray 6d. or 1/-. I am leaving aside altogether tourist resorts, because there you have a different problem. Taking the ordinary town or village, where you have three, four or half a dozen public houses, and in some cases many more, you will not find more than one or two of them serving drink illegally on a Sunday. You will also always find the same half dozen people stealing in every Sunday to these same one or two public houses. The big majority of the decent licensed traders in those towns and villages are quite prepared to do a fair trade on ordinary week-days, and never open their houses on a Sunday. There is no demand from them for Sunday opening, or from the general mass of the general population in the rural areas.

Mr. Boland

I do not expect that the debate on this amendment will conclude before 8 o'clock when Private Members' time will be taken, but at this stage I would like to make my attitude clear. I am not prepared to accept this amendment, to have a general opening on Sundays through the country. Deputy O'Higgins said the onus was on me to justify the present position. I do not admit that at all. As I said before, I was not the first person to introduce licensing legislation in this House. Two licensing Acts have already been passed by the House. On the whole, the law as it stands, has worked pretty well. Parts of it are not working well. I am not going to admit for a moment that that is the fault of the Guards. I refer in particular to the provisions dealing with the so-called bona fide traffic. Deputy Dillon has referred to these as “cod” and humbug. I felt that it was up to me to put an end to that traffic, in so far as it could be done, without causing undue inconvenience. I tried to get it done away with altogether on week-days, but the House was against me. I was impressed by the case made for those who had to travel in the early hours of the morning to fairs and markets. I suppose there are very few who would get up before 6 o'clock in the morning just to get drink, and for no other purpose.

Mr. Dillon

No man at a fair ever took a drink before selling his beast.

Mr. Boland

It was not in Dublin alone, or in the areas outside of it, that you had rowdy scenes. They were occurring all through the country.

I am not going to be forced to give way on the question of Sunday opening in the country. It may have been unwise on my part to give way on certain points. As a member of a Government in a democratic Parliament, I have given way to the views expressed in the House in regard to certain points. Even while that is so, I still feel that there are many members of the House who, if they wished to do so, could have spoken as Deputy Dillon and Deputy Allen have spoken. I am sorry they did not do so. On the matter of the 11 o'clock opening I got practically no support, certainly none in principle. I, therefore, gave way to some extent. I am afraid I went too far in doing so, but I promised to bring in an amendment to deal with it.

I can see no justification whatever for general Sunday opening. As I said on the Second Reading of the Bill, if all public houses were allowed to be open on Sundays you would get the same results as those which have followed from the legalising of betting. You would have at least ten people going into public houses on Sundays who do not do so now. I do not believe that there is one in ten of the population who is prepared to break the law. As Deputy Dillon and Deputy Allen have said, there is undoubtedly a certain number who will try to get drink on a Sunday, but the number is very small. It is all very well to say that the Guards have not been enforcing the law. I suppose the reason is the widespread area they have to supervise. Their numbers are few and they cannot be everywhere. I am convinced, however, that if you were to have a general opening on Sundays it would result in a very big increase in drinking. That would be a very undesirable thing. It is a thing that I am not prepared to take responsibility for. Even if the House was against me, I would resist it. So far as Sunday opening is concerned, I am quite determined about it. I will not give way on it. I do not think I would be justified in doing so. I believe there is a big volume of opinion against it that has not found expression in this debate, except by a few Deputies. That volume of opinion would, I think, represent the views of the majority of the people on this question. The suggestion about populations moving from one place to another is not right at all. I agree that, if a man goes off for a walk on Sunday or goes for a cycle run or to a football match, he is entitled to get a drink. He can get it under the present system. But if you were to have people sitting drinking in public houses, a very serious situation would arise and some future Minister would, in a short time, be forced to take notice of it. You would have all sorts of abuses, apart from the point brought out so forcibly by Deputy Dillon, Deputy Allen and Deputy Kennedy as to the opening of shops for general trading. The whole idea of the Sabbath would be put on one side if you had this Sunday opening. In the city there is no fear of that.

I do not know what the historical origin of the differentiation between city and country was. One idea is that it may have been due to the belief that supervision in the larger centres, where the population was more compact, would be easier than in the country and that any abuses which would occur could be readily dealt with. It was not a question of the "hill tribes". With widely separated public houses and only a few policemen available, scenes might occur without any police being present to deal with them. There must have been some strong reason for this differentiation and I am satisfied that it has not brought any hardship on the people. I do not admit that a person cannot enjoy himself unless he is attached to a beer barrel. I do not think that that is essential to enjoyment at all. I agree that an occasional drink does no harm, but some people here give the impression that they believe that a man could not do a day's work without drinking. Deputy Corry works very hard and he does not drink any beer.

Mr. Corry

Why have one law for the city and another for the country?

Mr. Boland

I do not know, but I find that the system works all right. As Deputy Dillon and Deputy O Briain pointed out, if the law is being broken now, it would still be broken even if this opening were permitted.

Mr. Corry

Not at all.

Mr. Boland

I am certain of that. I do not admit that the law is being broken to the extent that some Deputies seem to think. I am satisfied that the people who break the law now—both publicans and drinkers— would contrive to break the law even if you had fixed opening hours. I tried to meet the House on this Bill and I am afraid that I slipped too far. However, I am not giving way on this point. I thought I would get more help, but Deputy Dillon, for the first time in my experience, has been a sort of lifebuoy to me. He came very strongly to my aid and he was ably backed by Deputy Allen and Deputy Kennedy. These three Deputies are, probably, speaking for a number of other Deputies who have not contributed to the debate. I shall, certainly, listen to any arguments put forward, but, having heard the case pro and con, I am satisfied that the law as regards Sunday opening is all right and I do not propose to agree to any change in it.

Mr. Davin

Can the Minister give any particulars—if he has not them now, I shall take them later—as to the extent to which persons were brought before the courts for drunkenness in cases where 20,000, 40,000 and 50,000 people assembled in Thurles, Portlaoighise, Tullamore, Wexford and Kilkenny, when there was a general opening for seven hours?

Mr. Boland

I do not think that the number would be at all appreciable, because these people came from a distance and were returning that evening. That was the second reason I was anxious to extend the hours in the county boroughs. As everybody knows, large crowds come to these centres for football matches. As Deputy Corry pointed out, I did refer in this connection to people living in the cities. Lately, Association football matches are being played late, and it is only right that the people attending them should be allowed to have a drink. Because public houses had to close at 5 o'clock, large numbers were on these special occasions trying to get in, and some publicans allowed them in by the back door and were prosecuted. There is a case for meeting the requirements of large crowds in these big centres, but my main object in extending the city hour was to cut down the difference between the closing hour in the cities and the closing hour in the surrounding districts, and thus stop the exodus of undesirable elements who make the place simply unbearable for ordinary, decent citizens.

Mr. Davin

That applies only to the city and county.

Mr. Boland

And to other cities, too.

Mr. Corry

Will the Minister accept an amendment on Report Stage to wipe out all drinking in Dublin and the other cities on Sundays, and put these cities on the same level as the country?

Mr. Boland

I will not.

Mr. Corry

Then, we are to have class legislation again.

Mr. Kennedy

I raised a question about redundant public houses.

Mr. Boland

A deputation approached the Minister for Finance on that question. I am prepared to try to do something about it. I have a provision in contemplation to compensate any publican who surrenders his licence voluntarily. How the compensation will be arrived at is more a matter for the Minister for Finance than for me. I am thinking over the matter, and if there is not time to deal with it by Report Stage I shall deal with it in the Seanad if I decide to take action.

Mr. Dillon

I entirely agree with Deputy Allen in his forecast that, if there is a general Sunday opening for public houses in rural Ireland, Sunday will shortly be turned into a market day. As Deputy Allen pointed out— I did not hear anybody else make the point—the large majority of these public houses are general shops which deal in hardware, drapery, boots or some other line of trade. It might seem at first that their opening would stop at the opening of the licensed house. I do not think that it would. If you open a general shop on Sunday, when the whole parish comes into Mass, other shopkeepers, in their own defence, must open and go into competition with them. Otherwise, a substantial volume of trade would be taken from them without which they might not be able to keep open on other days of the week. I think that Deputy Allen is perfectly right in that contention. Deputy Davin's contention that, if you open for two hours on a Sunday, you will end all abuses of the licensing laws is grotesque. The public houses are open 12 hours every day and is shebeening not still going on when the public houses are closed?

Mr. Davin

The Minister does not know that.

Mr. Dillon

I am telling the Minister that there is shebeening.

Mr. Davin

He does not know it.

Mr. Dillon

He ought to know it and, if he is not able to stop it, it is a great scandal. It is the great rural evil. I understand that, by arrangement, these several matters are being divided for the purpose of debate into a series of categories. We are now dealing with the specific subject of Sunday opening in rural Ireland. Deputy Kennedy raised a point about redundant licences which did not seem to be relevant to this portion of the debate. I want to raise the question of securing that the rural publican be able to get an exemption order for a fair day or similar occasion without the elaborate procedure which he has to go through at present before a district justice. When may that matter be raised?

Mr. Davin

That means giving people drink before they get their breakfasts?

Mr. Dillon

It does not. Let us not fall into the foolish error of some of my friends who think that the farmers in this country go in and drink before selling their beasts at a fair. I want to give people who have transacted their business an opportunity of going in and getting bread and cheese and whatever drink they want.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think the question of exemption orders comes under this amendment or could be properly raised on it.

Mr. Linehan

It is not touched on in the Bill at all.

Mr. Boland

What I understood Deputy Dillon to ask was whether he could get an opportunity of suggesting some amendment to alter the procedure.

Mr. Linehan

That is regulated by the District Court rules and the procedure under them.

Mr. Dillon

I am grateful to Deputy Linehan for that observation, but it is absurd for Oireachtas Eireann to get itself tangled up with the District Courts. I do not care a fiddle-dee-dee whose rule it is; I want Oireachtas Eireann to override that rule. I want to change the rule which provides that they have to go before a district justice.

Mr. Linehan

There is no regulation about it in the Bill.

Mr. Dillon

I want to make it possible for persons who want to get an exemption order on a fair morning to get that from the superintendent; at present they have to go before the district justice.

Mr. Linehan

The Deputy is talking utter nonsense.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The amendment before the House relates only to Sunday opening in rural areas.

Mr. Linehan

Exemption orders are granted automatically every year.

Amendment put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 61.

Tá

• Belton, Patrick.
• Bennett, George C.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Cogan, Patrick.
• Curran, Richard.
• Daly, Patrick.
• Davin, William.
• Esmonde, John L.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Giles, Patrick.
• Hannigan, Joseph.
• Hickey, James.
• Keating, John.
• Linehan, Timothy.
• Lynch, Finian.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Morrissey; Daniel.
• Nally, Martin.
• Norton, William.
• O'Donovan, Timothy J.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F.
• Pattison, James P.
• Redmond, Bridget M.
• Ryan, Jeremiah.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Bourke, Dan.
• Brady, Brian.
• Brady, Seán.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Daniel.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Browne, Patrick.
• Buckley, Seán.
• Childers, Erskine H.
• Cooney, Eamonn.
• Corish, Richard.
• Crowley, Fred Hugh.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Dillon, James M.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Fogarty, Patrick J.
• Fuller, Stephen.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hogan, Daniel.
• Humphreys, Francis.
• Keane, John J.
• Kelly, James P.
• Kennedy, Michael J.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick J.
• Loughman, Francis.
• Lynch, James B.
• McCann, John.
• McDevitt, Henry A.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• Morrissey, Michael.
• Moylan, Seán.
• Mullen, Thomas.
• O Briain, Donnchadh.
• O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O'Loghlen, Peter J.
• O'Rourke, Daniel.
• Rice, Brigid M.
• Ryan, Robert.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Victory, James.
• Walsh, Laurence J.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Conn.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Hickey and Linehan; Níl: Deputies Smith and S. Brady.

Amendment declared defeated.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.