Vol. 89 No. 4
I move:—
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1943, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Gaeltacht Services, including Housing Grants.
Níl sa Mheastachán so ach Meastachán comhartha de £10. 'Sé is cúis leis ná údarás bheith ag teastáil chun Leithreasaí-i-gCabhair a bhéas le fáil de bhreis ar ar cuireadh sa bhun-mheastachán d'úsáid, maraon le sábháiltí ar mhírchinn áirithe den Vóta, chun abhair breise do chur ar fáil do na tionnsgail tuaithe agus chun airgead breise do chur ar fáil don tionnsgal cairrgín. Tá £19,850 breise ag teastáil fé D.6 den Vóta i geóir abhar do na tionnsgail eniotála agus figheadóireachta, agus tá £15,900 breise ag teastáil fé D.8 i gcóir abhar don tionnsgal bréagán. Tá soláthar nua—agus, dá bhrí sin, soláthar breise—ag teastáil fé D.D.9 i gcóir costas oibrithe muilinn sníomhacháin a tógadh ar léas d'fhonn abhair do chur ar fáil don tionnsgal figheadóireachta. Tuairim is £8,880 ar fad atá ag teastáil ina chóir seo, agus dá réir sin is féidir a thuigsint gur £28,730 an méid atá ag teastáil do na tionnsgail figheacháin, idir a bhéadh le ceannach d'abhair agus a bhéadh á chur ar fáil ón muileann sníomhacháin.
Tá £3,100 breise ag teastáil i gcóir an tionnsgail cairrgín agus baineann so le costaisí breise a leanfaidh cairrgín do chur ar fáil don mhargadh thar mar a soláthruíodh sa bhun-mheastachán. Tuigfear gurab é fé ndear airgead breise bheith ag teastáil le haghaidh abhar do na tionnsgail tuaithe ná iarracht a bheith á déanamh againn chun go leór stór do chur ar fáil d'obair na dtionnsgal agus praghas na n-abhar do bheith imithe i ndaoire ón uair do hullmhuíodh an bun-mheastachán.
'Sé fé ndear airgead breise bheith ag teastáil don tionnsgal cairrgín ná sárghlaodhach do bheith taguithe ar an gcairrgín bídh a pacáltar ag an bhFó-Roinn chun é dhíol ar an margadh. Thárla, freisin, go dtáinig méadú thar mar a soláthruíodh dó sa bhun-mheastachán ar phraghas an chairrgín a ceannuíodh don tionnsgal. Nuair a bhí an bun-mheastachán á uUmhú ceapadh gur timpeall £115,000 glan a gheobhfaí mar fháltaisí ó dhíolacháin na dtionnsgal tuaithe tar éis págh oibre agus coimisiún agus costaisí áirithe eile d'íoc asta, ach anois ceaptar gur suim £139,600 glan a bhéas ar fáil fé dheire na bliana airgeadais. Is ionann san agus méadú glan de £24,600 ar an bhfó-roinn seo de na Leithreasaí-i-gCabhair.
Ceaptar go mbeidh £2,330 breise d'fháltaisí le fáil againn ó dhíolacháin an chairrgín bhídh de bhárr an airgid a bhéas caithte ar thionnsgal an chairrgín i rith na bliana airgeadais dá bhfuiltear ag soláthar anois. Is dóigh linn go mbeidh roinnt den chairrgín gan díol, nó gan foc as, i ndeire na bliana airgeadais agus sin fé ndear dúinn gan cóiriú do dhéanamh i gcóir fáltaisí níos mó ná mar adubhradh. Ceaptar go mbeidh méadú de £120 ar na fáltaisí ilghnéitheacha fé fhó-roinn a (6) de mhírchinn na Leithreasaí-i-gCabhair.
Dá bhrigh sin go léir, chífear gur £27,050 atá á chóiriú anois mar bhreis ar na Leithreasaí-i-gCabhair. Tá le baint den mhéid sin, amhthach, easnaimh a ceaptar a bhéas ar fhóranna eile den mhírcheann, mar atá, fáltaisí ó dhíolacháin na ceilpe, etc., agus fáltaisí ó iasachtaí tionnsclaíochta. 'Sé is méid do na Leasnaimh sin ná £4,500 ar fad agus, ar an méid sin do bhaint de na breiseanna, chífear gur £22,550 a bheidh mar mhéadú glan ar Leithreasaí-i-gCabhair na bliana airgeadais seo.
'Sé fé ndear easnamh a bheith ann ar dhíolacháin na ceilpe ná gur lugha an méid a ceannuíodh ná a measadh sa bhun-mheastachán. Níor cheannuigh an Fhó-Roinn ach tuairim is an tríú cuid den cheilp dar soláthruíodh toisc go raibh daoine eile á ceannach gan tástáil ná eile. Ní raibh an Fhó-Roinn sásta an cheilp do cheannach gan tástáil.
Ach cead bheith againn an £22,550 breise ar Leithreasaí-i-gCabhair d'úsáid i gcóir na seirbhíse, fágfaí£25,180 a bhéadh le glanadh ó shábháiltí ar mhírchinn eile den Vóta. Beidh sábháil de £12,880 fé D 9 a bhaineas leis an muileann sníomhacháin atá le bheith i gCill Chártha, Co. Dhúin na nGall; do theip ar ár ndícheall, go dtí seo, maisínreadh d'fháil don mhuileann so, agus ní dóigh linn anois go mbeidh airgead ag teastáil ina chóir roimh dheire na bliana airgeadais. Beidh sábháil de £4,400 fé E3, a bhaineas le ceilp do cheannach fé mar atá mínithe agam cheana. Beidh sábháil de £890 fé F3 a bhaineas le costaisí coitianta an taisc-ionaid mhargaíochta; agus sábhálfar £7,000 fé H3, a bhaineas le deontaisí fé Achtanna na dTithe (Gaeltacht), toise abhair tógála do bheith chó gann san i láthair na huaire. Tar éis a sábhálfar ar na mírchinn sin d'úsáid, ní bheidh ag teastáil ach an £10 atá á iarraidh againn sa mheastachán breise seo.
Before agreeing to the passing of this Supplementary Estimate, there are a few points I should like to raise, because, except for the fact that the Appropriations-in-Aid bring the Vote down to practically a token Vote for £10, the increases in comparison with the original Estimate, or in proportion to the original Estimate, are rather high. Under the heading, "Rural Industries," there are at least six materials, the additional sum required being £19,000. This is explained in the details as being "for the purchase of woollen yarns and other materials, including cost of finishing." That is a fairly understandable item, but in respect of sub-head D 8—"Toy Industry—there is a sum of £15,900 required, in respect of which the details merely say: "Additional amount required for materials." I am anxious to know what those materials required for the toy industry are— what type of commodity they consist of, and what has been the increase in price.
In respect of sub-head D 6, the Supplementary Estimate gives some details of the type of materials, but in respect of D 8, in connection with the toy industry, no attempt is made to show exactly what the materials are. In view of my knowledge of the toys made by Gaeltacht Industries, I find it very hard to understand what the materials are which would have so very greatly increased in price, if an increase in price is the reason for the extra Estimate. I should like to be clear as to whether it is a question of increased price, or merely a question of getting more materials and providing more work.
The Parliamentary Secretary referred to kelp, which does not help him considerably in his Appropriations-in-Aid. I do not quite understand the explanation that: "The Department purchased only approximately one-third of the amount provided for, because of the fact that others were purchasing without test of any kind." Does that mean that there were people in the market for kelp who were paying a price without test which the Department could not pay, or paying a higher price than the Department would pay? There are one or two Deputies here who have said more to the Parliamentary Secretary about kelp than I ever have said, and I think it would be well if he told us what the situation with regard to kelp is.
Though there is no money demanded for kelp in this Supplementary Estimate the Parliamentary Secretary did refer to kelp in his opening speech.
The only reason for my mentioning it is that this Supplementary Estimate would not be necessary if the Parliamentary Secretary had provided that little item for kelp. I may repeat, possibly for the 24th time in this Session, that, so far as Supplementary Estimates are concerned, I do not agree with their being introduced, and I will always oppose them, at any rate, formally, without prejudice to what the Parliamentary Secretary may say in his reply.
With regard to this method of accounting, are we at liberty in this House to take money from one sub-head and put it to the use of another, or will we be confronted with the Comptroller and Auditor-General for taking that course?
The Deputy is in no danger as the risk is the Minister's. There might be fears for the Deputy at some future date.
I do not want to take part in a matter with which I may be called upon to deal at a later date.
It is not my function so I shall not hazard an opinion.
Is maith liom gur árduigh an tAire an praghas ar an gceilp, mar cuirfe sé sin iallach ar cheannachóirí eile, má theastuíonn sí uatha, an oiread céanna foe uirthi. Do réir an luacha atá anois uirthi ba cheart go ndéanfadh daoine í, mar íocfa sí go maith iad ar a saothar. Is maith an t am go bhfuair siad fuagra, mar beidh séasúr na ceilpe ag teacht go gairid.
Faoi'n bhfigheadóireacht ba mhaith liom dá gcuireadh an tAire ranganna figheadóireachta ar bun anseo is ansiúd i nGaeltacht na Gaillimhe agus Cho. Mhuigheo, mar b'urusta an cheird fhoghluim agus teastuíonn na figheadóirí go géar; mar, faoi láthair, tá luach maith ar an mbréidín atá dhá dhéanamh sa tír. Theasbeánfadh na figheadóirí seo faoi na dathanna chó maith. Faoi láthair níl mórán figheadóirí againn.
Faoi'n gcarraigín, is maith an rud go bhfuil an tAire ag tabhairt praghas cothrom uirthi mar coinneoidh sé seo suas a luach. Ba mhaith an rud í choinneáil glan o chuile rud eile mar, má fhághann muid droch-ainm, b'fhéidir, nuair a bheas an cogadh caithte, go ngreamódh sé dhúinn. Tá mise buidheach as chuile bheagán fhághas an Ghaeltacht. agus súil agam le mórán mór eile.
Is maith liom go bhfuil an Rúnaidhe Páirliminte ag cur tuilleadh airgid ar fághail do thionnscail na h-olna agus do na tionnscail eile atá ar bun aige faoi Sheirbhísí na Gaedhealtachta. Badh é mo bharamail i gcomhnaidhe gurb é tionnscail na h-olna an tionnscail a b'fhearr a d'fhóir do mhuinntir na Gaedhealtachta mar d'fhás sé leobhtha ó ghlún go glún. Ar an dubh-shraith sin badh cheart dúinn tionnscal maith a thógáil. Tá na sléibhte againn a fhóireas do na caoirigh agus tá an olann go fairsing againn do'n bháinín agus do'n bhréidin. Tá éileamh as miosúr ar an éadach so anois. Tá an t-adhbhar san bhaile againn agus níl gnaithe é a thabhairt thar sáile. Le na chois sin tá na figheadóirí agus adhbhar na bhfigheadóir againn agus tá mná cniotála againn nach bhfuil sárú ortha i n-aon chearn.
Molaim an obair atá déanta ag an fho-roinn leis na tionnscail tuatha a chur chun cinn. Acht níl ann acht tús ar an obair atá 'mach rompa. Is mór an cúl ar a gcuid oibre nach bhfuil an muileann sníomhacháin i gCill Chartha ag cur amach snáth 'san am i láthair. Dá mbeadh an muileann seo faoi sheól anois thiocfadh linn snáth a thabhairt do na céadta figheadóir san Ghaedhealtacht. Chím go bhfuil muilleann ar léas no ar cíos ag an Roinn go mbeidh an muileann úr réidh le freastal ar na figheadóirí. Tá súil agam gur gairid go mbéidh na h-innill ar fághail don mhuileann úr i gCill Chartha agus go mbéidh an muileann seo faoi lán-réim seóil againn san Ghaedealtacht do mhuinntir na Gaedhealtachta.
I am rather interested in this new development for which money is asked—namely, the leasing of a mill. The erection of a mill at Kilcar has been hanging fire now for I do not know how long. I regret that the Parliamentary Secretary did not go to the North of Ireland when the Americans were there constructing buildings, and ask them to come over for a few hours to Kilcar to finish off the job. They have been fiddling about this spinning and dyeing mill for years. I do not know at what stage it is now, as I overlooked asking Deputy McFadden, but it has been going on sufficiently long in my opinion to be erected, equipped, and working long ago. It is rather regrettable, to say the least of it, that we have simply fiddled about up to this stage, and that we have now to go to County Cork to lease a mill. Of course, Deputy Linehan will applaud that, but I do not. I certainly think that it is a matter that deserves censure.
I would not have said a word to the Parliamentary Secretary had I known it.
I know you would not. It will be welcomed by Deputy Linehan, but not by me. I am speaking now with regard to efficiency in the direction of matters. It is rather a commentary on the way things are done generally. It certainly indicates the slipshod method adopted when anything gets into the hands of a Government Department. Assuming there was laxity in regard to this matter up to the outbreak of the war, there was still time after that to push ahead and give the contractor, say, six months to do the job. I regret that was not done. I regret that it will now have to remain over until after the war and that wool will have to be sent from Donegal to Cork and then back again to Donegal. That is bad business. It may be said that we are spending money, but that may either have to be added to the cost or come from the taxpayers. What I am concerned with is the business aspect of it and the question of efficiency in production.
As we have reached this stage, I should like to be assured that there will be very close and efficient supervision of the quality of the wool that is converted into yarn and that the dyeing processes will be amply tested to ensure that the cloth that is produced from the dyed wools will be of a lasting quality. I hope that the utmost care will be taken in dyeing the wool to see that the dyes used are first-class, that the dyes will be of such a character that when the thread is made into cloth it will keep its colour. It would be very serious in an innovation of this kind if the colours are mixed in such a way that after a short period of wear they would fade. During the last war that happened with cloths for which a high price was paid. We should take every precaution to see that there is no injurious action. I would impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary that he should exercise his authority in the control of this new development for the sake of the reputation of the material that is to be produced by the Department of which he has charge.
I am glad to know that carrageen is coming into its own. For years I have been urging in this House the importance of this product for human and animal use. Of course, one was looked upon as having a bee in one's bonnet about this matter. In these days of propaganda by means of the microphone, a single voice has no chance of being heard. I am glad that present circumstances will perform the process of education which I was unable to perform. I am glad to know from chemists and others that the sale of carrageen is increasing. A great opportunity is now provided for its sale owing to the shortage of cornflour, semolina, farola, etc. The carrageen which I have seen, I must say, was in perfect condition. What I am anxious about is, that the quality of it should be kept up when the market for its sale increases, and that there will be no falling off in the quality, or the packing of the carrageen.
With regard to kelp, some seven or eight years ago I suggested that steps should be taken by the Government to try to develop that industry from the point of view of the future. I pointed out that a day might come when it would be necessary to have the industry developed—a day of tragedy for the world, which, if one may say so, has already arrived. My suggestion was that the people living along the coast in the Gaeltacht areas should be offered a flat rate of about £5 a ton for the kelp, which would mean, from the national point of view, that it would be an important source of supply of a vital necessity. Apart from that, it would mean taking men off the dole. Such work would keep them morally as well as physically fit, because they would be getting money which they earned for themselves. It would strengthen their moral fibre.
I should like the Parliamentary Secretary, when he is replying, to tell us, quite frankly, who are our competitors with regard to this, and to what use are they putting the kelp. Are they nationals of the Twenty-Six Counties, or are they from Northern Ireland or from England, and if they are from Northern Ireland, are they acting on behalf of British concerns? Is the kelp being used for chemical purposes, or is it being used as a fertiliser? Of course, when I asked the Minister for Agriculture a question on this matter some time ago, he brushed me aside, but I think it is a fact that scientists in this country have been experimenting for some years and have found out that, in the production of flax fibre of the highest quality, there was no fertiliser to compare with kelp. If the Parliamentary Secretary has any information on that point, I think it would be well for him to tell the House and the country what has been the result of these experiments.
I think we should be told what is the value, from a fertilising point of view, of the kelp, if the Parliamentary Secretary has the information at his disposal. I have been convinced long ago, by experience, of the value of that material as a fertiliser, but, again, you have this kind of mass propaganda with regard to commercial fertilisers. Huge combines are concerned, and they can use various weapons whereby they can shut out the operation of an industry like this. For that reason, I think the Parliamentary Secretary, if he has such information, should give it to the House, so that farmers and industrialists, here as well as elsewhere, could be made aware of the potentialities of this material from the fertilising point of view. If it has been found by experiments that the application of kelp to certain crops has a greater value than it was previously known to have, then the House and the country should be informed of that, and if there is any possibility of its sale being extended outside this country, our Consuls should be put in the position of being able to use their offices for the purpose of letting that information be known in the countries to which they have been appointed.
Again, with regard to this matter of the spinning and dyeing mill, I take it that the dyeing is going to take place along with the spinning, but I should like to emphasise the importance of the thread being well made and the dyeing being well done. The first thing is to see that the dyes are dissolved properly and, secondly, when the wool is dyed, to see that it should not be woven until technical tests are applied to the wool to see that the dye is absolutely fast and will do credit to the country and the Department.
I fear I shall have to admit that I got very little understanding from the statement that was made by the Parliamentary Secretary in regard to this Supplementary Estimate, and I hope that when the main Estimate comes to be discussed at the beginning of the next financial year there will be something of more interest to the House, or at any rate some more information. Frankly, I must say that I do not understand what this is all about. The Parliamentary Secretary first asked for a token Vote of £10, and said that the reason for it was that authority was required to utilise Appropriations-in-Aid in excess of the amount provided in the original Estimate. The explanation starts off by setting out increased expenditures for various reasons and the second half of the statement explains that the money is not going to be expended at all. I do not want to delay the House on the matter but I hope that when this item comes before the Public Accounts Committee it will be examined with a view to getting some satisfactory business explanation of the whole thing.
To what item is the Deputy referring?
I will analyse it a little. First of all it says here that the sum of £3,100 in excess of the original Estimate is required for the carrageen industry, which is accounted for by marketing more carrageen than originally provided for. That is a sentence which I find it hard to understand.
That explains itself, surely.
It does not explain itself.
I am surprised at the Deputy.
The Deputy will be less surprised when he reads further. It says that £3,100 is required in excess of the original Estimate, because there is more carrageen being sold.
The Minister has to buy more.
The Department has to purchase it, and then sell it. Is not that quite simple?
Further on in the explanation it says: "Receipts from Carrageen Sales will, it is thought, be £2,330 in excess of the amount originally estimated." Can the Deputies reconcile these two figures?
They put up the price last year compared with the year before.
If the expenditure is going to be increased because you have to buy more carrageen, receipts from sales will increase in proportion.
No, not at all.
I am afraid I cannot understand it.
It should be related to the original Estimate.
The Deputy should keep away from the Gaeltacht.
I will not keep away from the Gaeltacht. I have had experience, when on the Public Accounts Committee, of trying to reconcile positions. I do not mind. If the Dáil wants to subsidise industry in the Gaeltacht, I approve of it.
We are not talking of subsidies.
The Deputy should be allowed to proceed.
I do not mind the interruptions, but I want to say that if the Dáil wants to subsidise industry in the Gaeltacht, I approve of it absolutely, and I would like to see it done to a greater extent than it is being done at the moment, but I do not like to see a pretence made that there is an absolutely business-like attitude adopted in the matter. Anybody reading the statement which has been circulated will find that there is a great deal of confusion. There is talk of buying a spinning mill in one part and of not buying it in another part. There is an explánation given as to why money is needed for it and an explanation of why there will be a saving on the same sub-head because this building cannot be acquired. If Deputies take the trouble to read it, they will find the more often they read it the more confused they will be.
The Deputy must not have read it. The saving is in respect of machinery which is not available for a mill. Instead, they will have to lease the mill. They are two different things altogether.
The Deputy should be allowed to proceed.
There is a total sum involved of some £28,000 and a net figure of £22,000 and provision is being made to dispose of this £22,000 which is in excess in the Appropriations-in-Aid on what was originally intended. It is a very simple thing to explain that, but I defy any Deputy to say that he understands this document which has been circulated, and I hope when the matter comes before the Public Accounts Committee a more detailed examination of the whole thing will be made.
Deputy Linehan was seeking information with regard to certain increases. The obvious explanation is that we have been endeavouring—and with a certain amount of success—to provide the necessary materials to keep the industries going and, to Deputy McMenamin's chagrin, we have gone all the way to Cork in our efforts——
The Parliamentary Secretary should have mentioned that in the statement. It would make it much easier.
—— to secure materials to keep industries going in Donegal and other Gaeltacht industries. As anybody who has any knowledge of these industries knows, it is not an easy matter to provide the wherewithal to keep these industries going. It is very difficult at the moment to get materials. We have been endeavouring for some time past to get the necessary machinery for the spinning mill at Kilcar, in Donegal. We have failed. We have endeavoured by every means in our power to obtain this machinery, but we cannot compel the people who have the control of the machinery to give it to us, although we are willing to pay for it. We have no power over them. The machinery cannot be obtained and is not likely to be obtained during the present emergency. Having failed to obtain the machinery, we are still going ahead with the construction of the building there, so that in the future, when we will be able, please God, to provide the machinery, we will have the housing accommodation for it.
Meanwhile, we have to provide the yarns and to keep on supplying the increasing demands. For that purpose we have taken over on lease a spinning mill at Cork, at Reenascreena, and that will be a considerable help. We have, therefore, been able to make provision to keep the industry going for a considerable time to come. I think, instead of trying to pick holes in the efforts of my Department, the officers there should be congratulated. We have often been taken to task about commercial accounts, and all the rest of it. We are bound by statute to make out the accounts in the order in which they are made out. If the Dáil wants to change that system of accountancy, the Dáil alone can change it. The officers of my Department have to obey the law. It is an easy matter to apply commercial standards, but there is no man—not even Deputy Briscoe—who, if he wanted to start an industry, would go to Donegal. He would try to start it in Dublin, if I know anything.
Exactly.
With all the advantages there are in Dublin, with its central market, no Deputy who wanted to start an industry would leave Dublin to go to Donegal. But we are not out—I frankly admit—on a commercial basis; we are out to assist the people in the Gaeltacht; but, despite that fact, and despite the handicaps of operating under a Civil Service system, the business has been growing. Our sales have increased in leaps and bounds. I think the steps we have taken for the provision of materials for the future, and the fact that I am able to state that for a considerable time to come we have the wherewithal to keep these industries going, indicate that we compare favourably even with the best business methods of Deputy Briscoe or anyone else. The sales in 1935-36—if I may go back a few years—amounted to £34,432. In 1941-42, the sales have gone up to £177,513. I think that is very creditable, in view of the many handicaps.
And the quality of the stuff deserved that demand.
The quality of the stuff is excellent.
Exactly.
I can assure the Deputies who have spoken and anybody else who may be interested that they need have no doubts as to the quality of the material or with regard to dyeing and other processes of manufacture. We have experts in my Department who are second to none in this country, who can stand on their own when it comes to giving expert advice with regard to every stage of the process of manufacture. We are in constant consultation with these people with the result that the standard of our goods will, I think, compare favourably with that of any other manufacturer in the country.
We have had to make increased provisions here for many reasons, chief amongst them being the obligation that falls upon us to provide for the growing demands which could not possibly have been foreseen at the time the original Estimate was being prepared. With regard to the purchase of kelp—to which I think Deputy McMenamin referred—I can assure him that all the kelp will be bought by an Irish firm on behalf of Irish industry and that the entire produce of the kelp will be used for agricultural purposes. There is none of it going abroad.
With regard to carrageen, there has been, I am pleased to say, a marked increase in the demand for this food due largely, of course, to the war. We are not claiming credit for that. We were doing as much in regard to the purchase of carrageen before this increased demand arose, but the market was not there. Because of the war there has been a market created for it, with the result that we have now to make increased provision in order to purchase carrageen. The same applies to kelp in respect of which we are also making increased provision. With regard to the Appropriations-in-Aid, the larger our sales the larger will be the amount of these appropriations. This is merely a token Vote for £10 in order to give us legal authority to use these moneys for the purposes to which I have already referred. I do not think there is any other point that calls for reply at the present time.
In the case of the new spinning mill, do you propose to do your own dyeing also?
No.
