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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Feb 1944

Vol. 92 No. 9

Private Deputies' Business. - Grant for Tillage—Motion.

I move:—

That Dáil Eireann is of opinion that a grant from the Exchequer averaging £3 per annum should be paid on every acre of land under tillage in order to promote increased and efficient food production, and to enable the produce to reach the consumer at a reasonable price; and requests the Government to introduce legislation accordingly.

In a motion of the importance and far-reaching nature of the one which is before the House now, I feel that Deputies are entitled and have reason to expect a fair and frank explanation of the effect which it is likely to have on agricultural policy and of the manner in which it is to be financed and administered. I propose to give the House as briefly as possible, such an explanation. I expect Deputies to receive this motion in the spirit in which it is offered and to give it careful consideration and that it will not be treated in the manner in which another motion sponsored by this Party was treated. I hope that old and experienced Deputies will not lose their tempers and their heads as they did on the occasion on which that motion was before the House.

The purpose of this motion is permanently to expand the volume of agricultural production. One of the most tragic features of the economic life of this country is that, in spite of all the legislation which has been passed to deal with agriculture, in spite of all the agricultural schemes which have been introduced from year to year, in spite of the efforts which have been made by the Department of Agriculture, under the British régime and our own native Government, there has been a steady decline in the volume of production and in the number of people engaged in work on the land. That decline has been progressive down through the years. There has been, first of all, a decline in the acreage under tillage. We find that, in 1851, in this country, there were 3,500,000 acres under tillage; in 1870 there were 2,750,000; in 1921, 1,800,000; in 1931, 1,400,000; in 1938, 1,498,000.

Heretofore, before the establishment of this Government and of our native institutions, it was customary for the mighty orators of the Parliamentary Party and for the resolute young leaders of the revolutionary movement of Sinn Féin, to attribute all the evils of this country to British rule. Yet we find to-day, after 20 years of native Government, that there has been no really definite improvement in agricultural conditions, no substantial increase in the acreage under tillage up to the outbreak of war, and a real decline in the total volume of production. We who are promoting this motion hold that, if the volume of agricultural production is to be increased, there must be a permanent expansion of the acreage under tillage.

We assert that, notwithstanding the many theories which may be advocated in regard to improved methods of grassland management and more modern and official methods of seeding and improving grass lands. Tillage is essential in order to provide the main requirements of the human population. It is essential, even in the post-war period, that the human population should have produced in this country the greater part, if not all, of their requirements in food. It is also essential, if we are to have a secure system of agriculture, that our live stock should depend mainly upon the food produced within this country. We cannot produce sufficient food, both for human consumption and for the upkeep of the animal population, unless we have a fairly extensive area under tillage. Improved grassland may provide an increased amount of food units for the upkeep of sheep and cattle, but for human food, for the winter feeding of live stock and for the pig and poultry industries, tillage is absolutely essential.

A good deal has been published recently in the Press in regard to the advantages which Denmark enjoys over this country in the matter of food production. Comparisons between Denmark and Éire have been made to our disadvantage. The very learned paper read by Dr. Beddy has focussed attention on this matter. That paper has been used by various people for various purposes, just as the Scriptures are so used. Some people have tried to read into it an indictment of the farmers. I read into it an indictment of Governmental policy, as pursued not only by the present Government, but by their predecessors, and also by their predecessors—the British régime. Up to the outbreak of war, the policy was —except for the period of the last war —to allow the area under tillage to be governed by the law of chance. It was assumed that it should be left to the farmer to produce from his farm whatever he thought best. That is quite right, but there is also a duty on the Government to see that it pays the farmer best to do what is in the best interests of the community. It would be a remarkable coincidence if the interests of the individual farmer coincided with the interests of the community. The reason why tillage declined in this country was because the farmer found from practical experience that he could make a greater profit by utilising his land mainly for pasture and reducing tillage to the minimum. Now, it may be said that the farmer should have been more patriotic, that he should have put the interests of the community before his own interests; but the farmer, just the same as any other business man who puts the interests of the community before his own interests, invariably winds up by finding himself a burden on the community, inasmuch as he becomes a bankrupt, and has to be maintained at the public expense. Every practical man who owns land must endeavour to work that land so as to reap the higher profit. There are people who will contend that, at all times and in all cases, there was a higher profit to be derived from tillage than from permanent pasture. If that were true, it would be as much as to suggest that the owners of land in this country were imbeciles: that they adopted a policy which did not pay them. I do not think that suggestion could be sustained. The average farmer is a shrewd, practical man.

Dr. Beddy, in commenting upon the low output in this country as compared with Denmark, on the decline in our rural population and in rural production in Ireland, said:

"It is our climatic advantages which primarily are the cause of our relative economic and social disadvantages, since they permit us, though do not compel us, to adopt a system of agriculture which has led to a declining population, to a heavy emigration, to a low agricultural productivity, to restricted activity in agriculture, in industry, in commerce, and in foreign trade, and to a lack of opportunity for profitable domestic investment of our capital resources."

The Irish Times, in commenting on that statement in its issue of January 28th last, said:

"What evidence can be adduced to support that apparently paradoxical conclusion? Does it rest on a balanced and impartial survey of all the facts which are pertinent to the state of agriculture in Denmark and in our Twenty-Six Counties? If so, does it not present a body of problems beside which other questions pertinent to post-war reconstruction shrink into comparative insignificance?"

I think that is a very serious statement. It is made in good faith by a paper which, I think, is advancing steadily in the direction of a realisation of the best interests of this nation. That paper has certainly made considerable progress, and is bidding fair to be more national in its outlook than some of our faded green orthodox nationalists. I welcome that serious approach on the part of the Irish Times to this problem. If we compare agricultural conditions in Denmark with this country, what do we find is the outstanding feature of Danish agriculture as compared with ours? First of all, we find, taking the total output of each 100 or 1,000 acres, that Danish agricultural output is 50 per cent. higher than the output of this State. That may be a conservative estimate, but it is the estimate given by Dr. Beddy. Some people claim that Danish output is more than double ours, but I think, taking everything into consideration, that Dr. Beddy's examination of this question was very careful.

We find, in addition, that Danish national income is 45 per cent. higher than the national income of this country. The population per square mile of Denmark is 224 as against 112 here. The agricultural population of Denmark is 70 per 1,000 acres as against 55 here. If the working agricultural population of this country was to be increased to the Danish standard, and if we were to employ as many on the land of this country as are employed on it in Denmark, there would be 174,000 additional workers employed in our agricultural industry. We talk about the unemployment problem; we talk about the fact that we have 100,000 people unemployed and that we will have a large number coming here in the post-war period. If we could only advance our agriculture to the stage that it has been advanced in Denmark, we could provide additional employment in agriculture alone for 174,000 workers. That is only a small part of the advantages which this country would derive from an expansion in agricultural production.

We know that in Denmark industrial development has progressed by leaps and bounds. That is natural because, where you have a big agricultural population earning a fairly substantial income and consuming a considerable amount of industrial goods, industry is certain to prosper. The retail and wholesale business in Denmark is infinitely greater than here. The number of people employed in all branches of life in Denmark is greater than here, and that is not achieved by imposing upon the Danish agricultural population a low standard of living. As a matter of fact, the standard of living, of the agricultural population in Denmark is considerably higher in many respects than the standard of living of our agricultural population.

We may ask ourselves what is the reason why Denmark enjoys such an advantage over this country, why the output of its agricultural industry is much higher than ours. Many reasons have been advanced by people who have studied this matter. The educational fanatics claim that it is due to the superior education of the Danish farmers and agricultural workers. They may enjoy some advantages over our farmers and agricultural workers in regard to education, but I would not say they enjoy very far-reaching advantages. It has been said that Danish progress is due largely to co-operation. Co-operation may have contributed to a certain extent to the advance which Denmark has made, but it goes only a small distance along the way. If we compare Danish conditions with ours, it will be found that the outstanding feature of Danish agriculture is that they have in that country over 60 per cent. of the land under tillage, whereas here we have less than 15 per cent. It is solely as a result of that difference in agricultural practice as between Denmark and this country that the output of the Danes is so much higher than our agricultural output.

It may be asked how is it that the Danish farmers, without any tillage subsidy, without any compulsion, adopted a system of farming which has led to such an extensive system of production. The reason, of course, is that the Danish climate and soil contributed to compel the farmer to adopt that system. There is absolutely no means by which the Danish farmer can carry his stock over the winter unless he cultivates a considerable amount of his land and stores the produce for winter feeding. Here it is possible, and profitable, to adopt an alternative system. Our winters being milder, it is not necessary to till very extensively, to house-feed live stock so extensively, and we have found that in normal years it pays better to utilise the greater portion of the land for permanent pasture and devote only a small portion to tillage. It is obvious, if you want to get the maximum amount of production out of the land, that the plough must be taken over every arable field. That is true no matter whether you adopt the growing of ordinary tillage crops or adopt a system of cultivating grass, which is advocated at the present time. You must have tillage and, since the ordinary economic laws do not tend to encourage the farmer to till, it is necessary for the community to take some action to induce the farmer to till the amount of land necessary in order to get the maximum production out of the soil. I am not advocating that we should increase the area under tillage to the extent that prevails in Denmark. I believe a much lower percentage would suffice for our needs, having regard to the special system of economy which we would find profitable here, and having regard to the more favourable condition of our soil and climate for grass production. But we must have, at least in normal years, one-third of our arable land under tillage. If we achieve that, we shall achieve a very substantial increase in production over a period of years, as a long-term policy.

Let us not confuse the tillage policy during this emergency with a long-term agricultural policy. Tillage as carried out during an emergency—during the last war and during the present war— is not the best system of tillage farming; it is a haphazard, inefficient system, and it must be so since you have the position in which land, which was in the ordinary course used for permanent pasture, and farmers who were adapted and trained to the system of grass farming, have to be adjusted suddenly to tillage. You could not get efficient tillage in one or two years; you must have a long-term policy.

If we agree, and I am sure we all must agree, that an increase in the area under tillage is desirable, then the next question to consider is how that increase is to be brought about. I assume we all agree that we ought not to have the low percentage of tillage that we had in the past 20 years. We have to change that and adopt a more intensive system of farming. The question is: How do we propose to bring about an increase in the area under tillage? Suggestions have been put forward repeatedly in this connection. When the Fine Gael Party, under another name, were in power, they advocated mixed farming; they advocated an increase in tillage, but their method of promoting increased tillage was by repeating the doggerel: "Keep one more cow, keep one more sow, and till one extra acre." That did not achieve very effective results, particularly when the farmers joined in the refrain: "But tell us how we keep the cow when the bailiff comes to take her."

The area under tillage declined very considerably under the Cumann na nGaedheal régime. Then a pro-tillage party came into power that thought to increase tillage by the very radical method of destroying the live-stock industry. They said. "If we destroy the live-stock industry by making it unprofitable for farmers to keep store cattle or fat cattle, and if we subsidise the slaughter of calves, we will force them to till more whether they like it or not." After seven or eight years of that policy of Fianna Fáil, on the eve of the Great War, it was found that the area under tillage was at least 400,000 acres less than what it was when this State was established.

One suggestion for increasing the area under tillage was to continue the methods adopted during the emergency—compulsion. Compulsion may be a good policy in war-time, and it may be possible to carry it through effectively, but in normal times of peace it is a policy that cannot be justified in a democratic country, where the majority of people are engaged on the land. It would not be practical politics. Another suggestion in order to ensure that land would be properly worked was nationalisation. We have that plan very strenuously advocated in Great Britain at present, and there seems to be a great danger that it will be adopted.

The effect would be to convert the independent and enterprising farmer into a servile, streamlined civil servant. I think the House will join with me in shuddering at such a prospect. Nationalisation of land is a policy which would reduce the population to a condition of abject slavery. Land is the most important form of private property in this or in any other country, and its ownership is the greatest bulwark against Socialism, Communism or nationalisation. If a Government were to succeed in the nationalisation of land it would be only a short time until all property, even shirts on the backs of the citizens, would become State property.

Another suggestion frequently put forward in favour of an increase in the area under tillage is the division of land into small holdings. We know that on a small holding there is a greater percentage of tillage than on large holdings, because the family that has to live out of a small holding must put a bigger percentage of land under tillage. Does anybody think that the wholesale breaking up of land, or the wholesale destruction of security of tenure would make for better government or for progress? At present we have two sets of reformers, one set claiming that we will never have any sound economic policy until the land is divided into small sized holdings, while another set of economists claims that we can never make progress until we have all land taken over and divided into large holdings. If these two sets of reformers are set to work upon land settlement here they will in a short time reduce agriculture to a state of chaos. I was going to say "bloody", meaning bloody in its literal and Parliamentary sense, because if the right to private property is attacked wholesale, or if it is sought to divide every farm over 30 acres into small sized holdings, or to create larger farms by confiscation, that would produce chaos and anarchy and, at the finish, the farmers would either commit murder or suicide or spend their time chasing around apple trees.

The Minister for Agriculture is not responsible for the division of land.

I am simply dealing with suggestions that have been made for the purpose of bringing about increased tillage. It has also been suggested that we should increase the volume of output. That proposal was made from thousands of platforms— mainly Fianna Fáil platforms. Repeatedly we hear it stated that the breaking up of ranches would provide a solution of our agricultural problems. One suggestion frequently put forward which should command a considerable amount of respect is that we can promote tillage by guaranteeing farmers an economic price for tillage products. That is sound up to a certain point. But we have to remember that two-thirds of these products will be required for animal feeding, and that farmers cannot be guaranteed an economic price for tillage products that they require for feeding on their farms. If we were to attempt to do that it would create chaos by inducing farmers to sell tillage products off the farms, and then there would be a glut of such products on the market. There may be in the Fianna Fáil Party now —and there were at one time—people who claimed that tillage could be promoted by excluding all imports of all animal feeding-stuffs. There might be something to be said for that if we had no export trade. As long as it is possible to import animal feeding-stuffs, and to convert them into animal products for re-export, it would be sheer madness on the part of a Government to interfere with the importation of such feeding-stuffs.

There is no practical alternative to the proposition submitted in the motion, that the way to promote increased tillage is by giving farmers a reasonable inducement to do so; that we should, as it were, tip the scale in support of tillage by paying a bounty on every acre under cultivation. That policy was introduced in Great Britain at the outset of the present emergency.

That is the policy that has been mainly responsible for an expansion in the agricultural output of Great Britain of over 70 per cent. The British Government realised that it would not be a sound policy to guarantee the farmer a price for tillage purposes sufficiently high to induce him to sell every article of tillage produced off his farm. They realised that it would be necessary, in order to sustain extensive production on the land, for the farmer to carry as much live stock as possible and to feed a considerable proportion of his produce to the live stock. Therefore they decided that the only way that the farmer could be encouraged and enabled to extend the area under tillage and to produce the maximum from his land was by the payment of an acreage subsidy. Consequently we have the payment of £10 for every acre of land under potatoes in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, a subsidy of £3 for every acre under wheat, for every acre under rye and, I think, for every acre under flax, and we have also a subsidy for every acre of old pasture land ploughed up.

I am not one of those who suggest that we should always copy what is done in Great Britain but, in this connection at any rate, it seems to me that the policy of subsidisation of tillage has been a remarkable success. It has led, as I say, to an expansion in agricultural production of over 70 per cent. If we could only get an expansion of our total agricultural production of half that amount, what an increase it would represent in the national income! People talk about the cost of this scheme. It will cost a considerable amount and it is a revolutionary change. It is a change in agricultural policy, a proposal designed to prevent the agricultural industry from drifting slowly and steadily down to complete exhaustion, but whatever it costs, it is worth the money. Now, the question is on whom will this cost fall?

My answer to Deputy Morrissey and to all other Deputies in this House is that it will fall on no one because an expansion of agricultural production of 50 per cent., as has been found possible elsewhere, would at the present value of agricultural produce amount to an increase in our agricultural income of £40,000,000 per year. If, even at the outset, this scheme were to cost £10,000,000, that would be only one-fourth of the wealth which it would produce for the country.

There are people who approach this question from another angle. They say that it is a measure designed to confer an enormous monetary advantage upon the farming community who are, they claim, doing quite well out of the war. I deny that. The benefits of this measure will be universal. They will reach the farmer but they will also reach the agricultural workers who will be employed on the land. They will reach the urban population and every section of the community because an expansion in agricultural activity must naturally lead to an increase in trade and business and to a bigger circulation of money in the country.

Why stop at £3 per acre then? Why not make it £6 per acre?

Deputy Morrissey is inclined to follow the line taken on the motion which was before this House on a former occasion to withdraw the privilege of exemption of income-tax from members of this House. He thinks that he can side-track this motion by irrelevant interruptions. There is, of course, a definite limit to the amount of subsidy which you can pay on any product. First of all, the farmer produces goods on his land for profit, but if the subsidy were made so large that the farmer could live without producing anything on his land, of course, production would stop. It must be kept at a definite limit. You might as well ask why the British Government did not increase the subsidy to £30,000,000. They did not, because the scheme would nullify itself if they were to increase the subsidy to such a large amount that it had no relation to the cost of the finished product. Take wheat, for instance. Suppose you fixed a price for wheat sufficient to enable every farmer, even on the poorest land to grow the crop, you would require to fix the price at £4 or £5 per barrel. That would mean that the farmer on the rich land would reap an enormous benefit.

We have to take into consideration, in this connection, the vast variation in the conditions of soil in this country. We in Wicklow are expected to grow wheat on the sides of the Wicklow mountains, as I have already pointed out to the House. The farmer on the poorer land would reap a relatively small reward from a high price for wheat, whereas the farmer on the rich land would reap an excessive profit. In order to equalise the benefits, it is necessary that a certain percentage of the reward that the farmer receives should be paid to him on an acreage basis. Thus the farmer on the poorer land growing four or five barrels to the acre would get his £3 per acre just the same as the farmer on the rich land growing 20 or over 20 barrels to the acre. I think that is common sense, but of course there is no use in expecting that common sense will penetrate into the mind of Deputy Morrissey. He is too long in politics possibly. Because it is common sense it was the policy adopted by Great Britain in regard to wheat and other tillage matters. They were in a graver emergency and were forced, therefore, to use their brains more actively than we were. They adopted a policy of subsidisation of tillage.

I think, perhaps, I have spoken long enough on this matter. As I stated at the outset, this is a far-reaching measure. It is designed to bring about a revolutionary change in agricultural policy and to arrest the decay and decline in our agricultural industry. It is designed to provide increased employment for workers on the land, It is designed to provide increased circulation of money throughout the length and breadth of the country. There are people in this country who are prejudiced against subsidies of every kind, who say subsidies are no use, but simply a way of feeding the dog on his own tail. Why do not these people plead for the abolition of all subsidies? What are our social services but subsidies for non-production? Even the old age pension is a subsidy to an aged person to retire from active work. All through our administrative and governmental machine we have subsidies for everything but they are mainly subsidies for non-production. We have, on the other hand, a considerable number of subsidies for production. We have had them even in the agricultural industry over a long period. What is the premium paid for the best type of bulls or the best type of live stock but a subsidy, an inducement offered by the State to the farmer to keep the best type of live stock? The reason for giving that inducement is that the ordinary laws of commerce would not of themselves induce the farmer to keep the best type. The subsidy for the best type of live stock is on the same footing as a subsidy for extensive tillage.

It might be asked how this measure would be adopted, for instance, to whom would the subsidy be paid in the event of a farmer taking land by conacre for tillage. In that event, of course, it would certainly be paid to the man who actually tills the land. The objection might be raised in regard to a subsidy for tillage that the large farmer would derive greater benefit from it than the smaller farmer. There is no substance however in that, because a subsidy for tillage is a subsidy for labour. It is a subsidy for employment on the land, and the people who would benefit from such a subsidy first of all are the additional workers who would be employed upon the land if such a policy were put into operation.

It may be said that I am dealing with a situation which does not exist during this emergency. It is time that we got out of the attitude of regarding this emergency as something altogether apart from the conditions which will prevail when it has ceased, and regarding the post-war period as something in the far distant future for which we can plan in our easy-chairs. I hold that we must plan for the future and that the future begins now. This is a constructive effort to plan for a definite expansion in agriculture.

I second the motion. I have read as much literature on farming as most people, but I say that one must learn farming on the farm. At the present moment farmers are compelled to put 10 per cent. of their arable land under wheat. There is no way out of it. Perhaps they may be forced to till more. I am not looking for compensation for the consequential damages as a result of wheat growing, but if this war continues for five or six years the evil effects on the land as a result of wheat growing in Ireland will be felt, as they were felt after the 20 years' wheat growing that was started in 1853. During the Russian war wheat went to 3/- a stone. It did not go down to less than about 2/6. When the American Civil War started, the price of wheat again increased. From 1853 to 1873 wheat averaged 2/6 or 2/8 a stone. Every field in Ireland grew wheat eight and ten times in those two decades. The result was that in 1973 the land was so depleted that there was nothing for the people but the emigrant ship.

As a result of the intensive wheat growing, the land would grow nothing but what we call squitch grass or wild daisies. Wheat destroys the land and that can be tested. If one allows cattle or sheep into a field, part of which has grown wheat, part of which has grown oats and part of which has grown barley, the last part that the animals will go into is that part that has grown wheat. Rabbits would not eat it. Scientists tell us that wheat is akin to squitch grass. In fact, in Canada, they have gone as far as to hybridise the kernel of the squitch grass with wheat and the squitch grass was poisoned. After 1873, after 20 years' wheat growing, it was the fact that the land was rested for ten years and the introduction of artificial manure and the starting of the creameries that gave the land of Ireland the first respite it got. There is no use in any professor telling me about his analysis of the land. It can be tested by putting the animals into it and they will show which is the best land. Wheat is a very bad crop for the land. Oats and barley are not quite so bad. Wheat draws an overdraft on the bank of nature and the bill will be presented for payment, as it was in 1873, and there is no reserve to meet it.

There is a great deal of modern thought in regard to farming. Sir George Stephens has written some glorious works about it. Sir Arthur Young failed in three farms in England. After being in Ireland for eight or ten years he started writing to the papers and telling us what to do. There is a great deal of modern humbug about humus and clover. There is nothing in it. Humus must be supplied by the dung from the cows and the stables. Sir Arthur Young was taken to England and knighted. Now his ideas about lea farming are being quoted to us. It is a lot of humbug. The farmers two generations ago in Ireland must have been the best farmers in the world. The planters were brought over and were given long leases. Where are they now? They are gone, the great majority of them, and those who were driven out of their homes are here. We have not much to learn from any of those people. We are a land of flocks and herds. Giraldus Cambrensis said that the climate of this country was too humid for constant wheat growing. In West Cork, this proposal as regards supplying all our own stuff is going to fail, but if this little subsidy were given it would be a great thing and it would make tillage pay pretty well in the present emergency.

A fact in connection with Denmark which I have not heard touched upon is that the rate for carriage to the port of export is very small. The sooner it is realised that that has an important bearing on farming the better. The railway rates in this country from the remoter parts to the port of export are prohibitive. Another matter which I mentioned before in this House is the drudgery involved in the drawing of water by farmers. On half the farmsteads of the country a tremendous amount of time and energy is wasted in the drawing of water. Fifteen or eighteen county councils have voted for a national water supply and if that were brought in with the drainage scheme it would be a great advantage. Deputy Morrissey asks why not give a subsidy of £6, instead of £3, as we propose in this motion. The Deputy was tolerably well answered by Deputy Cogan. This bounty has been given in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with great effect. If the same were done here, production would be increased. But we shall never see more than 30 per cent. or 35 per cent. of the land of Ireland tilled. Even with that, if you continue with 10 per cent. wheat-growing, the same thing will happen over again: the land will be ruined and, if the farmer has a few pounds left, he will need it for arti ficial manure to compensate for the depredation caused by wheat-growing.

As neither the Government Party nor the Opposition has any answer to make to the case I put forward I take it that the motion is unanimously accepted by the House. It is usual for the proposer of a motion to conclude the debate upon it, but I find that I have nothing to which to reply except the irrelevant and disorderly interruption of Deputy Daniel Morrissey.

On a point of order, I should like to hear the Deputy reply to the seconder of his own motion.

That is not a point of order.

May I submit that it is for the Chair to decide whether it is a point of order or not.

I have pointed out that only one reply was made to the case I put forward. That was the irrelevant and disorderly interruption of Deputy Morrissey.

Whether a Deputy is disorderly or not is a matter for the decision of the Chair.

I intended to speak on this motion but I thought the proposer was sufficiently answered by his own seconder.

Deputy O Cleirigh has interjected his usual type of contribution. It is worthy of himself and worthy, perhaps, of the back benches of his Party. I should like to emphasise one point which, I think, arises out of Deputy Morrissey's irrelevant interruption: that is, that this motion will, in addition to conferring a benefit on the farmer, confer a very considerable benefit on the consumer. We seek by this subsidy to ensure that food will not only be produced in increased quantities but that it will be given to the consumer at a reasonable price.

The Deputy must not repeat the speech he made in moving his motion.

I have no intention of repeating anything I have said. I want to congratulate the House on their apparent acceptance of this proposal. Now that their process of education has begun, I hope they will continue to learn from this Party. Evidently, nobody who disagress with this motion has sufficient courage to express his disagreement.

What of your seconder?

I am rather pleased that the Minister for Agriculture has been present during this debate. I represent in this House 138,000 electors in the County Wicklow——

What—138,000?

It is the duty of a Dáil representative to be guide, philosopher and friend of his constituents——

On a point of information, will the Minister for Agriculture, as the only responsible member of the Government present, please inform the House when half the population of the City of Dublin migrated to County Wicklow?

I said I represented 38,000 electors.

You said 138,000.

I said 38,000. I hope the Minister has profited by the information we have given him and I hope he will have no hesitation in adopting the proposal contained in this motion.

Question put.

Before this division is taken, I want to put a point of order.

No point of order can be raised once the question has been put.

Is there any precedent for a Minister refusing to answer a debate?

The Deputy may not raise the matter now.

Then I protest against that discourtesy.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 83.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Esmonde, Sir John L.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Mahony, Philip.
  • O'Donnell, William F.
  • O'Driscoll, Patrick F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Anthony, Richard S.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Brennan, Martin.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Byrne, Christopher M.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Corbett, Eamon.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Crowley, Fred H.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Daly, Francis J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fitzgerald, Séamus.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Healy, John B.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Séamus.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Linehan, Timothy.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Looney, Thomas D.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • Norton, William.
  • O Brian, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O Cléirigh, Mícheál.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Pattison James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Skinner, Leo B.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Stapleton, Richard.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Tunney, James.
  • Ward, Conn.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Cogan and Halliden; Níl: Deputies Kissane and Kennedy.
Motion declared lost.

Motion No. 3 is not being moved.

We assumed that No. 3 was being taken. At this moment we are not ready to proceed with the discussions of motions Nos. 4 or 5, and if the House would accommodate us, we should prefer these motions to be adjourned so that we could deal with them properly.

This is Private Deputies' time and the ordinary procedure would be for motions to be called and those which cannot be gone on with postponed to another occasion. I should be very willing, speaking as an Independent and individual Deputy, to meet the Labour Party but for the extraordinary occurrence which took place here this evening. I want to register a solemn protest against the proceedings of the House being turned into a farce by the refusal of Ministers to answer.

That motion has been decided on. The Deputy should have raised his point in time.

I raise the whole matter of principle. What is the use of debating these motions if a Minister feels he is entitled——

The Deputy had ample opportunity to raise the matter when the Minister did not rise. He did not do so.

Are we to take it, if these motions are now adjourned, that such motions as may be reached will be treated with the same contempt——

The Deputy was told that he may not raise that matter and he should not try to get around the ruling of the Chair.

Raise what—the refusal of a Minister to answer motions? What is the use of moving them if the Minister will not answer?

The Deputy is entitled to raise that on any occasion on which the Minister concerned does not intervene.

Surely I am entitled to say that in view of the scandalous——

The Deputy has been told that he may not do so now.

In view of what we have seen here this evening, am I not entitled to inquire, before we proceed to adjourn motions——

The Deputy may not raise the matter.

I do not see the use of moving motions if the Minister will not answer.

The Deputy might have said so when the motion in question was before the House.

I did so as loud as I could.

After the Vote had been called, when it was quite out of order to raise any question. The proposal by Deputy Murphy is that these motions be adjourned, and that the House do now adjourn.

Is it proposed to take up other motions if these are adjourned?

Is objection taken to adjournment?

Motion No. 4 would be taken next if the House adjourns now.

I was ready to go on with the Second Reading of the Labourers Bill in Private Members' time, but, at the request of the Government and in order to accommodate the Government, it was left over until next week. It was then intimated to me that the motion of which we have disposed would probably occupy all Private Members' time this evening, but that did not happen for reasons of which the House is aware. It was assumed that the next motion on the Order Paper would follow the motion on which we have voted, but up parently the motion in the name of Deputy Benson is being withdrawn with the result that we rather prematurely reach the next motion. Having regard to the way in which the whole matter has arisen, perhaps the order of motions on the Paper could be maintained for the next sitting of the House.

I am quite prepared to go on with my motion.

Is there a seconder?

Yes. Deputy Anthony will second my motion.

Motions Nos. 4 and 5 are not being taken.

I think that in that case, if the main Opposition Party agrees, the motion of Deputy Murphy, representing the Labour Party, might be accepted.

If the House will take my motion now, I am quite prepared to go on with it.

The House will decide.

Yes, and the humblest Deputy here has as much right to be heard as the Minister.

Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle will explain the procedure. If those motions are not moved, does that mean they are abandoned?

If a motion is passed over, it loses its place. If, however, they are all passed over, they will come up in the same order.

I am the only one in the House in a position to go on.

Barr
Roinn