Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Feb 1944

Vol. 92 No. 9

Private Deputies' Business. - Payment of Deputies' Expenses—Motion.

Mr. Dillon

I move:—

That Dáil Eireann is of opinion that, in order to preserve the independence of Deputies, it is not desirable that they should be in danger of being regarded as salaried servants of the State; that, in order to enable every citizen, rich or poor, to discharge the duties of a Deputy, if elected by the people to represent them, each Deputy should receive an allowance sufficient to defray the expenses of his work as a Deputy and that in order effectively to secure this object a Select Committee of Dáil Eireann should be appointed to ascertain the average expenses of the average Deputy and to recommend an annual payment sufficient to defray those expenses.

I put down this motion yesterday and I am prepared to go on with it, although those who put down motions six months ago do not seem to be so prepared. I believe that the matter is one of urgency and of considerable public importance. I might say that I put down this motion because of a motion put down by Clann na Talmhan shortly before the Adjournment. Deputies in this House will remember that, shortly after Clann na Talmhan came in here, they felt they were going to make the welkin ring, and one of the most popular things they could suggest was that all Deputies' allowances should be made subject to income-tax. I believe that the impres sion they sought to create down the country was that they were in favour of having an arrangement whereunder Deputies would get a smaller remuneration than they now enjoy. I am giving them an opportunity now of putting that pious aspiration into practice. One of their associates recently said he was not going to make a pauper of himself coming to Dáil Eireann for less than £480 a year. As I understand the Clann na Talmhan motion, if that Deputy's Parliamentary allowance had been made subject to income-tax he would have to come here for approximately £360 a year. He said he is not going to make a pauper of himself by doing that.

Mr. Hughes

He voted against the motion.

Mr. Dillon

Let me say at once in justification of the Deputy to whom I refer that he straightforwardly voted against the Clann na Talmhan motion. Therefore, if my words, so far, suggested that he is guilty of an inconsistency, I want to correct that impression. He voted against the Clann na Talmhan motion, and stood against it in his own constituency. I am giving the remaining members of Clann na Talmhan an opportunity of going on record here in Dáil Eireann, and before their constituents, as to what they want. Do they think Deputies in this House are getting too much to pay their expenses, and, if they do, will they help me to revise that amount? The purpose of this resolution is to get a committee set up by Dáil Eireann which will inquire into every Deputy's allowance, and, if the Deputies in this House are getting more than they ought to get by way of expenses, to reduce their Parliamentary allowance. I have put that down for this reason, that the previous discussion on the Clann na Talmhan motion created, as far as I could judge from the public reaction throughout the country, the impression that every Deputy in this House was a salaried servant of the Government. I do not want any salary from the Government. I want to be an independent Deputy in this House, beholden to nobody but my constituents; to speak my mind without let or hindrance, not caring whether I please anybody; not beholden to anybody, and not susceptible to any penalties to be imposed upon me by the Government by way of reduction of my salary or emoluments. I do not want to regard myself in any sense as a salaried servant of the Executive.

I do, however, want to ensure that every man in this country, be he rich or poor, will be enabled to come to this House and discharge the duties of an elected Deputy if he secures the suffrages of a quota of voters in any constituency in Ireland. Unless the Parliamentary allowance is sufficient to defray the reasonable expenses of a Deputy in coming to this House, Parliament in this country is going to be turned into a preserve of the well-to-do. If Parliament in this country is turned into a preserve of the well-to-do, it cannot long survive. I regard Parliament as one of the greatest bulwarks of human liberty that any society could possibly have. I note with satisfaction that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, borrowed an article that I published in the Sunday Independent of last Sunday, and repeated it almost verbatim. I congratulate him on his perspicacity and on his feat of memory. Both do him credit. I rejoice that someone so widely separated from me in most of our political convictions should find himself in complete accord with me in the importance which he attaches to Parliamentary institutions in this country.

I confess that it was a shock to me to-night to find one of his colleagues —I have no hesitation in saying it— turning the proceedings of this House into a disgusting farce. I disagreed with Deputy Cogan. I could not agree or disagree with Deputy O'Donnell, because no man on God's earth could know what he said. There was neither head nor tail to what he said. But he is an elected Deputy here, and Deputy Cogan is the deputy leader of the Party, and, if they get up and move a motion, it is the duty of the Minister for Agriculture to get up and answer whatever arguments they put forward, be they good or bad, be they intelligible or unintelligible. But, for the first time in my 11 years' experience of this House—I have been told that Deputy Lemass as Minister for Industry and Commerce was guilty of the same discourtesy on a previous occasion, but I do not remember that —I have seen responsible members of a Party publicly insulted by a Minister of State. If that were to continue, I do not think it would very much matter what class of persons were permitted to come here as elected Deputies.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order, might I ask if this is a motion of censure on the Minister for Agriculture by Deputy Dillon?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not.

Mr. Dillon

No. If that outrageous conduct were allowed to continue on the part of a Minister it would not very much matter who came here. I trust that the scandal we have just witnessed here will galvanise all sides of the House into a resolution that no Minister will again be allowed to perpetrate such a discourtesy and such an outrage on the Parliament of this country. Pestilential outbreak of blight as I believe the present Taoiseach to be on the country, I do not believe he would stand for that. I think he has sufficient of the Parliamentarian in him to forbid the repetition of that outrage, and I believe the bulk of the Deputies in this House will combine to prevent the repetition of such incidents. I have faith and confidence in Parliament in this country, and I want Parliament to be open to every man and woman whom the electors of this country desire to send here. I want the people of this country to feel that in maintaining Parliament and in defending its dignity and independence they are defending their own liberty, without which it were better that we should all die. Now if this House and its Deputies are to be exposed perennially to the misrepresentation that we are all here because we are enjoying a soft job at an excessive salary, the public at large must inevitably lose all confidence in us.

I want to say deliberately that when this Select Committee is set up, if it sends for me to give evidence before it I shall be constrained to tell it that I lose money as a result of being a member of Dáil Eireann and that if I were called upon to lose much more than I am losing at present I could not afford to remain a Deputy. Dáil Eireann might get along very well without me, but there may be other Deputies similarly situated without whom Dáil Eireann could not get on very well, and if you make the financial burden of public representation in this country too heavy for such persons they may withdraw from the counsels of the nation, and we will be left with nothing in this Chamber but carpetbaggers who are drawing salaries from their regular jobs and underpaying persons whom they employ to do substitute for them, and adding to their income by the Parliamentary allowance they get here. It may be that my case is exceptional. If that is so, then of course it is quite clear that my case should not rule the whole Dáil. But what I want is this: let there be a Select Committee of ourselves set up to take evidence from any Deputy who cares to give it; let us there ascertain what are the average expenses of the average Deputy and let us determine to give all Deputies a Parliamentary allowance equal to these expenses. That done, I cannot see how any reasonable citizen of this State can suggest that such an allowance should be made subject to income-tax.

I think it right, inasmuch as it is manifest that this motion links up with the motion moved by Clann na Talmhan, to dwell for a moment on the proposal about levying income-tax on Deputies' allowances. I can see the force of that proposal if you regard the £480 a year we receive as a salary. I said that during the previous debate, and I want to repeat it now. But no greater disservice can be done to public life in this country than an attempt by an individual or a Party to mislead the public, to deceive them, and to work up indignation about a state of affairs which in fact does not exist. I suggest that the effect of the activities of Clann na Talmhan has been to suggest to the public mind that what Deputies are doing is exempting their entire income from income-tax and that when we vote for another shilling on the income-tax we do it with complete immunity, by suffering no part of the burden ourselves. That is the most grotesque nonsense.

Any Deputy here who is working in his shop, as I am, or at his profession, as others are, or at his vocation, whatever it may be, has an income. Every time we put a shilling on the income-tax we put that shilling on our own income. If somebody coming to Dáil Eireann was earning so small a wage in his lawful avocation that he was not liable to income-tax, he could perfectly easily demonstrate that the £480 which he gets for coming to Dáil Eireann is the expenses of his business in life and thereby could exempt that £480 per year from the incidence of income-tax in the general way. Every one of us in this Assembly who pays income-tax at all suffers with the rest of the community for every addition that we make to the income-tax of the community as a whole. I do not think it is desirable that that £480 a year should be looked upon as a salary at all. Deputy Cogan said here that £480 a year is much too much.

A Deputy

No.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, he did in my hearing. Deputy Cogan said here that it was perfectly ludicrous to pretend that the £480 a year was only sufficient to pay his expenses. He said it is sufficient to pay his expenses and a good deal more.

Mr. Cogan

On a point of order, I said nothing of the kind.

Mr. Dillon

It is not a point of order, but you did say it, and I heard you.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a question of fact which the Chair cannot decide. The records are available to be consulted.

Mr. Dillon

We will find the record. That was Deputy Cogan's song two months ago when there was no chance of his motion being passed. But this motion is going to be passed, or I am a Dutchman. I wonder what song Deputy Cogan will sing now. Is he going to sing for £120 off his parliamentary allowance? If he is an honest man he should. That is what he wanted the country to believe he was going to do. I am going to give him the chance to sing the song. If he sings it loud enough, with the help of God we will take £120 off his allowance and off everybody else's allowance.

If he thinks that is right and just, between now and the time this committee makes its report I will give him that chance. If my experience is unique in that the £480 is not recompensing me for the incidental loss of being a Deputy, if other Deputies find it is more than enough, let it be reduced and let the country know that all any individual Deputy gets for coming to Dáil Eireann and doing the work he has to do is a sum sufficient to recoup him for the loss he suffers as a result of devoting his time to Parliamentary work here.

I think it is right, in dealing with a motion of this kind, to recapitulate briefly for the information not only of Deputies but the people of the country the kind of work that is done by a Deputy. A great many people down the country seem to think, and indeed are encouraged by those who ought to be informed to believe, that the only thing a Deputy does when elected to Dáil Eireann is to come and sit in Leinster House and that he very rarely does that. I think any experienced Deputy will have no hesitation in saying that the least onerous part of his duties is sitting or speaking in Dáil Eireann. If you come in here and get up to make a speech on an important Bill, that may represent a fortnight's work. If you get up to make a speech or to take part in the Committee Stage of a Bill and if you want to make any impression on the House at all, it involves a considerable amount of research and preparation and study. Many Deputies have come in here in their salad days and thought that they could prance up and down and get away with it. If Deputies for the first month or two months are given a soft time, they may come to the conclusion that they are hardened old warriors and ought to know their way, and when they prance up and down without any preparation they get a shock —somebody up-ends them. They discover that if you want to talk in Dáil Eireann you must know what you are talking about or you must have a very tough hide to face the consequences of talking when you do not know what you are talking about.

But, quite apart from the deliberative work done here, there is work done on behalf of constituents. Mind you, I am by no means a Deputy who receives a large number of letters, compared with some other Deputies, but I wrote and posted 82 letters on last Monday week, though I have one of the smallest constituencies in Dáil Eireann and I am an Independent Deputy. I imagine that Deputies belonging to the Government Party and the principal Opposition would probably receive a very much larger number of letters, on the ground that it might be felt they would have more pull than I have or better contacts than I have.

All these letters must be dealt with and must be answered; and before you can answer the average letter from a constituent, you have to make a trip to Ballsbridge or the Custom House or Kildare Street. If you have the misfortune to get into the toils of the Department of Industry and Commerce, you may travel all over the town before you find the office you want—it may be in Kildare Street, in the Castle, in Lord Edward Street or in Upper O'Connell Street. If you get a letter about sugar, coal and paraffin oil, it may cost you 1/9 on the tram to go round amongst the offices, not to count the time waiting to see the individuals you have to interview. In order to make the proper representation in each of these cases, you have to go into a busy office of the Department with some kind of preparation. You cannot go in and look a fool, with no kind of argument prepared: you have to come in ready to transact business with dispatch, so as not to place an intolerable burden on the never-failing courtesy of the over-worked public servants of this country.

I could elaborate at great length on the various other types of duties which have to be discharged. Take my own case. I preside over the Committee of Public Accounts, on which there are 12 or 14 members. That means that those Deputies, in addition to doing their work in Dáil Eireann, have to attend that Committee once a week at least, and sometimes twice a week, and in preparation for it they must study the Appropriation Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report. I do not say that they all always do. You get good members of a committee and bad members but, by and large, the work of the Committee of Public Accounts does involve a considerable amount of attention.

I do not believe there is a single experienced Deputy of this House who would not have the same story to tell —that, in one way or another, from the moment he comes to Dublin to attend a meeting of Dáil Eireann until the moment he leaves, he is at it hammer and tongs. Many of them, over and above what they do when they are actually here, are kept busy in their constituencies in one way or another. I remember one colleague of mine, now in Heaven—requiescat in pace—who told me on one occasion that his work in Dáil Eireann was truly killing him; and he was a man who rarely spoke here.

I knew that man to be in almost vigorous health, but when he would arrive home from this House every week, as regular as the clock at 7 or 8 o'clock at night there would be nine or ten people outside his house waiting to interview him. From that time, until he came back to Dáil Eireann again, he would be summoned hither and thither and, if he did not go to the people, the people came to him. I do not know whether the scarcity of bicycle tyres has reduced that in recent years. Certainly, that was the case before the war, when motor cars and bicycle tyres were readily available.

I can imagine a lot of people scoffing and saying that Deputies are not so hard worked as I make out they are. Well, there is the picture. I remember another Deputy—I will not mention his name, as I have no leave to do so— telling me on one occasion that, for curiosity, he took down a year's correspondence and made up his work for his constituents on the basis of solicitor's costs and, if a solicitor had done all the jobs he had done, it would run into, I think, £1,000. If Deputies would reflect for a moment—that is those who do their work and answer the letters—and if they have ever seen a bill of solicitor's costs, they will fully realise that, if all the work were costed on that basis, it would cost £1,000. I am not arguing that we should get £1,000. All I am arguing is that Deputies' work calls for conscientious men and, if they are not conscientious men, whose fault is it that they are here?

If the electors choose to elect duds, what can we do about it? They do not want us to come down to them and say: "You cannot elect that man, because he is a dud." They know a dud better than we do and, if they prefer a dud to a good one, then they have the God-given right to do so.

Mr. Flanagan

Is it right for a Deputy to insult the intelligence of the electorate in this country?

Mr. Dillon

If my observations wounded the Deputy, I trust he will be persuaded that I was not thinking of him—at the moment, in any case There is another reason why I move this motion. I did it as part of a general campaign that I think is necessary for the preservation of freedom in this country, to secure that our people will not be misled into habitually decrying and defaming their own representatives. Here we are: we may not be much good, but we are the best the Irish people can choose. Whatever anybody says about us, before the world we are the best the Irish people can choose. I am no admirer of the present Government and I would be glad to have evil report of them, but I am bound to say this—that the last two general elections in this country were the freest general elections that ever were conducted in any democratic country in the world. Anybody could be heard, anybody could go forward, every citizen of this country was as free as the air to vote for whomever he liked, and every citizen of this State had full and ample opportunity on the hustings and in the Press, taken as a whole, to get a fair picture of the views put forward by every individual who was a candidate in the general election.

With those facilities the Irish people chose us. If we are a rotten lot of self-seeking idle parasites on the body politic, then the people of this country are not fit for self-government and the sooner we are reconquered the better. That would be the verdict of the world. If it is true that the Irish people, in a perfectly free election, can choose nothing but 136 duds, then we are clearly not fit to have independence at all and someone else should come in to run this country. I do not take that view. I am at the moment in a minority—at least, in a superficial minority of one—but I believe that a great many Deputies agree with me in this—if they had the guts to say so— but we cannot go into that now.

Having seen the deliberative assemblies of very many countries in the world, I want to say that the standard of debate, the standard of conduct, and the standard of industry in Dáil Eireann will compare favourably with any legislative assembly in the world. The truth is that the standard of debate in this House is so high, compared with other legislative assemblies, that we are inclined to be unduly harsh on a degree of mediocrity that would be regarded as very creditable in very many other deliberative assemblies. We are not perfect: God forbid we should ever claim to be; we are very much conscious of our own imperfections and, so long as we are that, we are fit to represent the people. If we ever get the ridiculous assumption that we are superior to everyone else, we are unfit to discharge the duties of office. We are fairly representative of the Irish people. It may be that none but a berserk people could choose Eamon de Valera as Taoiseach, but they have a right to do it. If they want to choose him and his Government—rotten or inefficient as they may be—they are very reasonable members of any deliberative assembly where they care to appear. I think that the Fianna Fáil Government is a deplorable Government, but that does not alter the fact that it is the choice of the Irish people.

I do not believe that all the Deputies are corrupt time-servers. I do not believe that the elected representatives of the people are deserving of censure in their every activity, and I think that it is a very great menace to the liberty of our people that our people should be encouraged to believe these things. I say that, deriving from the motion put down by Clann na Talmhan and defeated in this House, there may be created in the country the belief that there was only one thing that brought Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael together and that was the defence of their own salaries. The shrewd old Labour Party saw that danger, too, and they all went trotting off into the Lobby with Clann na Talmhan, not one of them believing in the Clann na Talmham motion, but saying to themselves: "If we vote with the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Parties, it will be said that the only thing to bring us into the Lobby together is defence of our salaries" and, watching the mob, they trotted off with Clann na Talmhan.

Well, I suppose men can sometimes persuade themselves that such things are politically justified. Actions of that kind are not very nice to look at. But it is important—and the Labour Party is right in believing—that certain simple elements in our community might be misled by the suggestion that the only thing which brought all Parties together in this House was in defence of their salaries. Now, Deputies who make that suggestion, and there are Deputies in this House who do make it, may collar a few ignorant "yobs" down the country to vote for them at the next election.

Mr. Flanagan

I do not believe that is a parliamentary expression.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy might enlighten the Chair on the meaning of the word "yob."

Mr. Dillon

If my remarks prove somewhat embarrassing to the Deputy who sits behind me, I want to assure him that, for the purposes of my speech, I dismiss him from my mind. If, in order to get votes, Deputies are prepared to stoop to the degradation of defaming the legislative assembly of this country, they are doing something which they may some day gravely rue. I remember that the Leader of Clann na Talmhan, when he found my views unacceptable to his patriotic soul, gathered up his papers and rushed in righteous indignation from the Chamber because, he said, it caused him acute anguish to imagine that my words would be published outside our native land lest scandal should be given. Did he think of that solicitude about giving scandal outside our native land when, by his actions, he sought to create the impression at home and abroad that the only thing that would bring the Opposition and the Government together was a dirty scramble for salaries that they should not get?

Mr. Donnellan

And the motion to-night.

Mr. Dillon

The Leader of Clann na Talmhan, who is so solicitous for the honour of this country should remember that ultimately the Irish people will be judged by the Legislature they have freely chosen. If it is to contain nothing but base helots, the world will say that the Irish people can be judged by their representatives, and if they can get no better than what Deputy Donnellan represents them to be, then they must not be fit for the high responsibility of choosing their own Government.

Mr. Donnellan

They have not the money like you, and it is a good job for them.

Mr. Dillon

What did the Deputy say?

Mr. Flanagan

He said: "They have not the money like you, and that it is a good job for them."

Mr. Dillon

Ní féidir liom é thuigsint ach mar a deirtear, aithnigheann ciaróg ciaróg eile. I simply could not understand what the Leader of Clann na Talmhan was saying, but whatever I am the Deputy must get it into his head that I represent the people who sent me here, and that whatever he is he represents the people who sent him here. If we are wholly unworthy, then that is a reflection on the people who sent us here.

Mr. Donnellan

I represent my own people and you represent strangers.

Mr. Dillon

I represent the people of Monaghan and got a full vote in Monaghan.

Mr. Donnellan

You had to leave your own county and get elected in another county.

Mr. Dillon

There is no use in going on that line. I could refer to the fact that Mr. Parnell went to Kilkenny, and I could go back a long way in history if I wanted to justify going to a constituency in which one was not born, and, on one's own merits and apart from one's family connections, getting elected by people other than one's uncles, cousins and aunts——

Mr. Donnellan

And Unionists.

Mr. Dillon

——which often provides a very useful nucleus on which to build. No one can accuse me of having got elected by my uncles, cousins or aunts in the County of Monaghan. I had support from the ground up, and if Deputy Donnellan can show as much in East Galway I will be quite prepared to agree with him. But let us not go into the question of individual Deputies. Presumably, we are all concerned to ensure that the world will know that this is a legislative assembly chosen freely by the Irish people, and that it does not feel called upon to hang its head in the presence of any other legislative assembly in the world.

I am trying to make it perfectly clear that the Deputies of this House are not a group of self-seekers desirous of using their legislative powers in order to secure preferential exemptions for themselves, and to relieve their own backs of burdens that they see fit to put on the ordinary people of the country. I do not want any salary for the work that I am doing here. Possibly, I might be able to do it without any allowance, but if allowances were to be withdrawn altogether this House would be made the prerogative only of the well-to-do. I want to see rich and poor, simple and sophisticated, free to enter this House if the electors of this country choose to send them here. In order to get that, I want them to get adequate allowances.

In order to secure that, I move the motion standing in my name. I hope, and I am emboldened to hope from previous statements made by the Taoiseach, that the Government will support the motion and will give it favourable consideration. I am not without hope that the principal Opposition Party will support it. I hope that the Labour Party will give us their help in securing that this inquiry will be instituted, and, of course, I have no doubt but that the sea-green incorruptibles in Clann na Talmhan will be in the van to give it their backing.

Mr. Anthony

It has been the custom of this House for a number of years, when motions of this character are proposed, for a Deputy to second them formally without making a speech, and for a Minister then to reply. When a motion on this subject was moved in the House recently by the Clann na Talmhan Party it was formally seconded by a member of the Farmers' Party. My intention is simply to second this motion in a few words, because I do not feel in too good form to make a long speech.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy might move the adjournment of the debate.

Mr. Anthony

I move.

Debate adjourned.