Vol. 92 No. 12
I move:—
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £419 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1944, for the Expenses of the Maintenance of Criminal Lunatics in the Dundrum Asylum (8 & 9 Vict., c. 107).
The Supplementary Estimate is rendered necessary by the increase in the extra bonus payable to attendants since the 1st January last. The number of patients is higher than was estimated when the original Estimate was made and the price of foodstuffs has increased. An additional sum is required in connection with the cultivation of the farm and garden.
On sub-head I, there is an increase in respect of an additional sum required to meet the increase in the cost of manures, seeds and farm implements, of £120. One would expect that there would be a pro rata increase in production from the garden and farm. Instead of that, there is an anticipated deficiency of £115. Surely that is not very creditable, if the garden and farm are being run efficiently, which I take it, as a Government institution, they ought to be. The agricultural community are expected to do their job efficiently during the emergency. The Parliamentary Secretary might explain to the House why this deficiency is anticipated.
Perhaps the deficiency might be explained by reason of the fact that outside labour is not engaged. It is only the labour of the patients. It is more in the nature of occupational therapy than gardening on a commercial scale.
Surely that is not an explanation. Does not the Parliamentary Secretary expect that production will be at least as good as last year?
The Deputy explained the reason for that, namely, increased cost of seeds and manures.
The value of produce has gone up in the meantime, as the Parliamentary Secretary has already indicated in his opening speech.
Would not the explanation be that the bulk of this produce is consumed in the institution and not sold? That would explain an increased cost for seeds and fertilisers without a commensurate increase in the value of sales.
That is a factor.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary say is the food going into the institution charged to the institution at market price?
No.
Do you give it to them for nothing?
There is a rough estimate, but it is not charged in at market price.
Surely that is not the proper way to do it.
What difference does it make?
This difference, that we are asked to vote a sum of money for which we ought to get a return.
Does the Deputy suggest that outside labour should be brought in?
The question of outside labour does not arise.
What does arise? The Deputy must admit that the price of seeds and manures has increased.
What does arise is this—that if the farm and garden are run efficiently it ought not to show a deficiency compared with last year.
The farm could be run efficiently if outside labour were brought in, and if it were run as a commercial proposition.
Surely institutional labour is cheaper than outside labour. The labour there is costing nothing, and if agriculture generally had free labour——
The Deputy knows well enough that in the circumstances it is not possible to get a normal output from the types of people who are doing this labour. In fact, you can get very little output.
But the Parliamentary Secretary must admit that it is a definite advantage to the institution to have free labour.
The Deputy would scarcely describe criminal lunatics as free labour.
What was the amount of bonus given to these attendants?
The Civil Service rate.
9/-?
I think 10/- is the maximum.
I hope you will be as generous when dealing with the civil attendants in the asylums.
They are not civil servants.
