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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Feb 1944

Vol. 92 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 69.—Supplies.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £329,860 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1944, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Supplies, including payments of certain Subsidies and Sundry Grants-in-Aid.

Deputies will have seen the sub-heads under which additional money is required. Apart from the increased expenditure on salaries, wages and allowances arising from bonus payments, these additional amounts are necessary mainly for two purposes: for food subsidies and for turf subsidies. The additional amount required for food subsidies is solely in connection with tea. The House is familiar with our position in regard to tea. We have been receiving through British Tea Control an allocation of tea equal to 25 per cent. of our normal purchases, representing about half an ounce per head per week of our population. In 1941 a company was established under Government auspices—Tea Importers Limited—to purchase tea in India. The company purchased about 12,000,000 pounds of tea, but of that amount only about 5,400,000 pounds had been shipped to this country before the development of war in the Far East, which made further shipping impossible. The balance of the tea lying in Calcutta, which could not be shipped, was sold by the company. The sale realised a profit of about £46,000. The tea which was imported came, as Deputies will remember, by a round about route. It was shipped from India to New York, from New York to Newfoundland and from Newfoundland here. On arrival here it cost substantially more than the tea which we received from British Tea Control on which the present retail price of tea is based.

In consequence of these stocks imported directly by Tea Importers Ltd., we were able to increase the half-ounce ration to one ounce during the winter of 1942-1943 and to maintain it at three-quarters of an ounce since. As it was considered undesirable to increase the price of tea, the tea allocated by Tea Importers Ltd. from their imports from India had to be sold at a loss. If that tea were sold at a price which would have avoided a loss, an increase of 8d. per pound on tea would have been necessary. Under present circumstances, the actual expenditure per household which an increase of 8d. per pound would necessitate might not be much, but it was regarded as undesirable and the sale by Tea Importers Ltd. of their tea at a price which made an increase of only 4d. possible involved the company in a loss of approximately £200,000. Against that loss of £200,000 there is the profit of £46,000 on the tea sold in India which could not be shipped and it is necessary now to provide a sum of £154,000 to make good the company's loss.

The company is a non-profit-making organisation set up by the Government for the sole purpose of importing this tea. The quantity of tea which was imported by the company in 1941 is now nearing exhaustion. I do not think there is any possibility that additional supplies of tea of any consequence will be procured. Some small lots of tea become available from time to time, and when they become available they are acquired by this company, but the prospect of any substantial addition to our stocks is not very bright.

It is a question which the Government will have to decide, whether we should continue the present ration of tea until these stocks are exhausted or whether we should seek to conserve some of the stocks by reducing the ration, at least temporarily. So long as we continue to receive the allocation of tea from the British Tea Control there is ½ oz. per head per week available. Probably the Dáil will agree— I am not asking them to agree now, but I think it is a matter upon which there is not likely to be much difference of opinion—that it is desirable that the remaining portion of the tea held up by Tea Importers, Limited should be carried over to meet the requirements of next winter. I think a higher ration of tea in the winter would be regarded as good policy. If there is to be a reduction it is probably better to make it at the period when milk is most plentiful. Milk is scarcest in the winter and it is the time when many families would prefer to have a higher ration of tea.

We cannot continue the present ration indefinitely during the summer and not have to make a reduction in the winter. In these circumstances it is thought desirable that approaching the summer season the ration of tea should be reduced to the amount we are getting from the British Tea Control and carry to next winter the reserve so as to permit of a resumption of the present ration during the winter months. If this company should be able to procure any additional supplies of tea, no doubt a fresh subsidy will be required, but I think it is exceedingly unlikely that the Dáil will be called upon for money for this purpose.

The other sub-head of the Vote relates to the turf subsidy. The amount estimated to be required to enable the price of turf to be maintained unchanged during the year proved less than the actual amount necessary, for three main reasons. First of all, the actual cost of turf to Fuel Importers, Limited, the turf produced by the county surveyors or acquired by them from private producers, was higher than had been anticipated. When the Estimate was being maintained the final accounts of these surveyors for the 1941-1942 seasons had not been received. They have since been received and show that the production cost during these two years was higher than had been assumed by approximately 5/6 per ton. Secondly, the cost of handling turf in the non-turf areas, that is to say, the cost of its delivery to the dumps and its maintenance in the dumps and delivery from the dumps to merchants in good condition, was also greater than was anticipated.

What about depreciation?

It was always assumed there would be a substantial loss. A loss of 20 per cent. was estimated as regards turf in the dumps. That factor has not altered, so far as I know.

Is the subsidy of £170,000 only for the one crop?

It is difficult to say that. The turf produced is brought to the non-turf areas and placed in dumps there. The original intention was to endeavour to build up in non-turf areas a year's supply, if possible, so that the breakdown of transport services would not necessarily mean a complete absence of fuel in the non-turf areas. There was a carry-over from last year of a substantial quantity of turf to meet the requirements of the present year and there will be a carry-over from this year to meet requirements next year, so it is impossible to define the actual outgoings and the requirements of a particular year. The amount now asked is the total amount required to offset losses incurred to date.

Is that the total subsidy required to date?

Yes. A third factor which upset the original Estimate was that a substantially larger quantity of turf was purchased in the non-turf area than in the previous year. As there is a very heavy loss upon the sale of turf, an increase in the quantity sold involves an increase in the subsidy necessary. The loss per ton on turf now sold in the non-turf area is approximately 28s. 10d. per ton

It has gone up from 23/6?

Yes. The remaining sub-head of the Estimate relates to the erection of camps for turf workers. A sum of £2,600 was provided to meet payments in the current year on contracts entered into by the Special Employment Schemes Office for the erection of camps for the housing of turf workers. It was anticipated the final payment of contractors for the erection of these camps would have been made in the previous financial year. In fact, some of the contractors delayed sending in their accounts and consequently payment may be made in the current financial year and it is necessary to provide a sum for that purpose. Deputies will note that there was a saving under sub-heads of approximately £20,000 making the sum now required £329,860.

I am aware of the fact that the accounts of both the nonprofit making companies set up by the Government, Tea Importers, Limited, and Fuel Importers, Limited, do not come within the purview of the Public Accounts Committee, but I should like to ask the Minister if their accounts are examined by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, because I feel that a system is growing up in this House where the Government ask the House to provide very substantial sums of money to be expended by outside bodies over which we have no control. I think the House should be very jealous of their authority in that respect and should insist upon a proper accounting here. I should like to have an assurance from the Minister that at least some representative of the State will examine the accounts of these bodies.

The Minister has presented a very gloomy picture as to the tea supply. The present ration, of course, is not nearly sufficient, but that is not the Minister's fault. He has made every effort to procure supplies, but we were unfortunate that the war developed in the East before we were able to clear supplies that had been ordered. I am inclined to agree with the Minister that if we have further to cut down the tea ration it would be better to reserve a supply for next winter. I think it would be wiser to ask the people to go on a lower ration during next summer rather than to continue on our present ration and exhaust whatever reserves are there and consequently be forced to cut down the ration next winter.

In regard to the question of turf supplies and the cost of turf production, it is very difficult for the House to understand the ramifications of the activities in this connection. We obtained some figures on a previous occasion from the Minister regarding subsidies, the cost of development, and all that sort of thing. I think it would be well if the Minister would give the House some information regarding the actual cost of production because some extraordinary figures have been published in the Irish Trade Journal of December, 1943, volume 18, No. 4. In the year 1929-30, our estimated production was 3,567,000 tons. That increased in the year 1940-41 to 4,235,000 tons. From the year 1941 to 1942-43, with all our efforts to supply fuel for this country, there was an increase of only 10,000 tons. The production in 1940-41 was 4,235,000 tons and in 1942-43 the production was 4,245,000 tons. That increase of 10,000 tons occurred in two years when the Government was paying particular attention to the production of turf fuel. The most amazing aspect of our efforts in that respect is that the value of the production increased from £5,293,000 to £8,206,000 in the year 1942-43. While production increased by only 10,000 tons, the value of the production increased by £3,000,000. That appears to me to cast a reflection on the efficiency of the whole organisation of turf production. As a matter of fact, the increase in production from 1929-30 to 1942-43—the last year for which the figure is available—was not quite one-fifth.

In the general Estimate last year we were asked to vote the sum of £660,000 for turf subsidy. Now the Minister comes to the House and says that is not enough, that he wants to increase the amount to £830,000—an increase of £170,000. In addition, we are asked for a sum of £25,860 to provide camps for turf workers. Then there is a development grant, in regard to which we have no information at the moment. Taking all the figures into account, the cost now is 28/10d. There are incidental costs that I am sure the Minister is not taking into account. Is the Minister taking into account development grants that had been made, and the cost of providing turf camps, road development, and other incidental costs? It appears to me that if these incidental costs are charged to turf production, which they must be if we are to arrive at the actual cost of turf, it means that turf is costing an enormous price to the country and we are getting a very poor article in return. We have had various complaints here from time to time as to the wet, sodden condition of turf supplied to the city, the enormous cost of transportation and distribution in the city, and the substantial sums of money that the House has been forced to provide as a result of that situation. Can the Minister give us any assurance that an effort will be made to handle turf production in a more business-like way? Surely one would expect that all our efforts would have resulted in a greater increase in production than one-fifth over what the country was producing in 1929-30.

There is the fact that although our production has increased by only 10,000 tons, the value of that increase is £3,000,000. Surely these are figures that require explanation. In face of that situation, one can understand that the Minister is forced to come in here time and again to ask for higher and higher subsidies.

Before the Vote is agreed to, I should like the Minister to give the House a good deal more information than he gave when introducing it. I have always, by voice and vote in the House, given every possible support to the development of the peat industry and the establishment of the Turf Development Board. I had hoped, when the emergency arose as a result of the cutting off of coal supplies, that the industry would get an opportunity which would put it on its feet for ever, but the more we hear of the work of the board and the activities of Fuel Importers, Limited, in particular, the more I fear there will be a day of reckoning when the emergency comes to an end.

I thought that in the normal course of events, whether pre-emergency or since, the people who produce turf would get a profitable price for their labour, whether they were private turf producers or people employed by the local authorities in providing whatever turf was required for Fuel Importers, Limited. We have heard to-day a most amazing state of affairs disclosed in the brief statement of the Minister, namely, that in order to sell turf in the non-turf areas like Dublin at a price of £3 4s. 0d. per ton, it has now become necessary to provide a subsidy of 28/- per ton. In other words, in order to prevent Fuel Importers, Limited—I suppose that is their case—from selling turf at a loss, it is necessary to fix the economic price at £4 12s. 0d. a ton.

Does the Minister think, from what he knows himself, that the turf sold in the City of Dublin is worth £4 12s. 0d. per ton, seeing that the producers in some parts of the country last year were getting only about £1 a ton and certainly not more than 25/- a ton? I want to know from the Minister, who has, I am sure, up-to-date information at his disposal, what is the latest price paid by Fuel Importers, Limited, for the turf they purchased from private turf producers, as well as the latest price paid to the county councils who produce turf for Fuel Importers, Limited. I want to know if he has any figures at his disposal which will indicate the position from that point of view and also if he will tell us how the latest figure of £4 12s. 0d. per ton is arrived at. We now know that the subsidy is 28/- per ton.

Is it not a fact, Sir, that the Minister said that the new subsidy is 28/-?

It is not a question for the Chair.

I should like the Minister to confirm the figure when he is replying.

Mr. Dockrell

The loss was now 28/10 per ton.

I want to know what is the average price paid out of that sum of £4 10s. 0d. per ton to the private turf producer and to the county councils; what is the average cost of distribution, carriage by rail and road; and what is the amount paid at the places where the turf is discharged from railway waggons or lorries and the amount paid for clamping. I want to find out how the figure is made up, so that we may see what the producer is getting, what the transport people are getting, and what the workers at the dump are getting out of this sum of £4 12s. 0d. Would the Minister also let us know the quantity of turf on the hands of the county councils at the end of last year? Can he indicate whether there was an increase in the quantity of turf produced by the county councils last year and, if so, to what extent? I asked him, when making his opening statement, whether he could indicate the extent to which there was more depreciation. I would not put my opinion against that of the Minister, because he has very reliable information from all over the country at his disposal, but I am of the opinion that some of the turf which was sold in the city last year was worse than the turf which came in during the first year of the emergency. It may be worse coming from some areas and I admit that it may be better from other areas, but the House should be given much more information than the Minister gave, and I should like him to give me the figures which I have asked for.

Mr. Dockrell

I note that this is the second Supplementary Estimate in respect of the turf subsidy. There is an increase of £170,000 now, and, at the end of the Estimate, we read that the first Supplementary Estimate amounted to £280,000. I do not know whether all that is in respect of the turf subsidy, as I have not got the first Supplementary Estimate by me, but the Minister has given the figure of 28/10 as the loss on the turf. I can remember a discussion on this Estimate, or an Estimate like it, last year, in which it was brought out that not only was there a loss on the turf at the price fixed, but there was another concealed loss amounting to an additional £1 per ton in respect of what Deputy Hughes has called the development grant. I think part of it was in respect of unemployment or something like that, but the position last year, as I understand it, was that the price charged to the consumer was £3 4s. 0d. per ton, that there was a loss in the shape of the turf subsidy of £1 per ton and an additional loss in respect of development of another £1 per ton, amounting in all to a sum of £5 4s. 0d. per ton. The Minister now says that the loss on the turf which occasioned the subsidy has now gone up and the amount is 28/10. He has not told us how that loss arises—whether a lot more turf will be got out, or whether there has been a terrible error in calculation. He has not told us how much is included in the figure for development in respect of turf which, I suppose, might be more or less than £1 per ton.

I propose for the Minister's benefit— I hope he will correct my arithmetic if I am wrong—to work it out in this way: the consumer is now charged £3 4s. 0d. per ton and there is a loss of £1 8s. 10d., which I will call £1 9s. 0d., making £4 13s. 0d., and another loss in respect of development, which we were told was in the matter of getting down to the black turf in the bogs, of £1 per ton, which would bring the cost of the ton of turf to the State to £5 13s. 0d. We used to hear that the equivalent of a ton of coal was 2½ tons of turf.

Where did the Deputy get that?

Mr. Dockrell

I used to hear that, but I shall be glad if the Minister would correct me if it is wrong.

It would be very bad turf.

Mr. Dockrell

What would the Deputy's figure be?

One and a half tons to one ton, of good turf.

Mr. Dockrell

Even on that basis, the Deputy will see where my figures get him. The Minister may say that there is no coal to be got. Of course he is quite right. Needs must when the devil drives, but even if you take two tons of turf to be equal to one ton of coal, that brings the cost of coal to £11 6s. I do not think the Minister would imagine that that price will continue when the emergency is over. Has the Minister envisaged the disappearance of turf in the non-turf areas like snow in a ditch? There are great complaints about wet turf. The Minister says that the merchants are getting the turf dry and that something must be happening to it; that it must be left out in the weather or something like that. Be that as it may, a lot of consumers are bitterly dissatisfied with the quality of turf they are getting. They are saying that they are paying £3 4s. per ton for a percentage of water.

There is another matter and I do not know how far the Minister has considered it. There are certain dumps and the Minister says that the supply to them must be kept up. Deputies from time to time have heard complaints of turf coming from turf producing areas which is brought through districts that are short of turf and delivered at a turf dump. I do not know whether the Minister could make any big saving in the delivery by getting a lot of that turf delivered direct to the distributors' yards. That is a matter for the Minister. But I should like the Minister to tell us what the actual cost to the country is of a ton of turf, namely, the price to the supplier here, the loss on the running of that, and the loss to the county councils through the production of turf.

I hope the Minister will give us those figures, because we may as well face the situation squarely and see what turf is costing us. I do not suggest that there is coal available. We have to put up with that for the present. But the sooner consumers know what turf is costing us the better. We hear complaints about it. I think Deputy Davin is anxious to know what they are getting for turf at the bogs. I do not know what they are getting at the bogs. Apparently, it looks as if it was costing the country £5 13s. to get a ton of turf out.

Since the Government took over responsibility for turf production the tendency has been for the price to increase phenomenally. I am afraid that tendency will continue unless some suitable or adequate steps are taken to regulate the price and to put turf production on something approaching an economic and business basis. I assume from the Minister's statement that the balance of the subsidy provided for in this Estimate, the sum required in order to provide the full subsidy for turf production, is £170,000. I assume that that balance is due mainly to the extra cost of turf production during the 1941-42 season. There is no question but that county councils did embark on turf production then on an extravagant scale, at the request of the Government, in order to ensure that there would be adequate supplies of fuel for the people in our cities and towns and generally in the non-turf areas. There is no doubt that turf production during that season was carried out in a very uneconomic way and that costs were abnormally high; but since then those county councils producing turf for sale through Fuel Importers, Limited, have reduced the cost of turf production very substantially, judging by the reports which they have made to their respective county councils on different occasions. They have learned wisdom from their experience during that first season of turf production. They have learned also how to utilise more economic methods in turf cutting and, generally, in turf production with the result that the costs of turf production for the county councils have been very substantially reduced. That is not reflected in the price of turf to-day.

Apparently the Government are subsidising the sale of turf in non-turf areas to the tune of 28/10 per ton. I would be interested to know from the Minister what are the factors responsible for that very high subsidy, in view of the fact that the cost of turf production has actually been cheapened by the county councils. What are the factors which contributed to such a very big subsidy having to be provided by the Government? Have all steps been taken to ascertain if it is possible to obtain turf from people who can produce it in a cheaper way than the county councils? For instance, have Fuel Importers, Limited, tried to arrange with private individuals to cut turf for them, let us say, on a piece-work basis? I am certain that, by good organisation, it would be possible to arrange for a number of private individuals in turf-producing areas to embark on the production of turf at a very much lower cost than it is possible for county councils to produce turf. I wonder has it occurred to the Minister or to Fuel Importers, Limited, to try an experiment, let us say, in one big turf-production area with a number of private individuals and get them to produce turf on a piece-work basis? I think they will find that turf production will work out very much cheaper than it is at present and that it will be possible for the Government to sell that turf at a cheaper rate than turf is being sold at present.

I also would be interested, like Deputy Davin, to know exactly what it does cost to produce a ton of turf at the present time. Not only must you take into account the fact that one ton of turf is sold to-day at 64/- in Dublin and other parts of the country but that the Government loses 28/10 on that. You must also take into consideration the proportion of the money spent in draining the bog on which the turf is produced, the proportion of the cost of making the road into the bog, the proportion of the cost of development and, in certain areas, of erecting and maintaining camps. It would be interesting to know what exactly it does cost the Government or the fuel producers per ton of turf at present.

After all, turf can be bought in some of the small country towns at one-third of the price which the unfortunate people in Dublin and other cities are charged, yet those selling in the country towns can travel long distances and sell that turf at a profit. So there must be something very uneconomical in the methods adopted by Fuel Importers in turf production. I think it is time for the Government, as a duty they owe to the country, to make an exhaustive examination of the whole problem, with a view to placing the turf industry on a really economic and business basis.

I am sure the House would be very interested in the figures asked for by Deputy Davin and Deputy Roddy. They would, perhaps, give us an insight into the working of this very elaborate turf scheme. I think we will have to consider, on this question of turf, that this portion of the Supplementary Estimate—£170,000—is part of the price we pay for our freedom. Of course, it is the business of this House to see that the price be reduced as much as possible. However, everybody knew that the working of the turf scheme would be uneconomic.

There is no escape from that. We all know that the only economic way to utilise our resources on the bogs is not by the method which has been forced upon us by the outbreak of war through the stoppage of imports of coal but by some of the more modern methods of using the fuel value of turf there for electrification purposes. When we look at the figures and make some calculation of what they would amount to if capitalised, we see that, had we the vision in the past to embark upon this scheme, we would probably be paying less per annum than we are paying now for the very ineffective service we are getting. That is no fault perhaps of any development board or any Ministerial action but is due to the inherent difficulties of the situation and to the engineering and other economic difficulties when it is handled in the method with which we are now familiar. That is the point of view I am sure which would be expressed by all who have the real interest of the turf industry at heart. If we are to have such an industry it must be reorganised as it could not continue on the present basis which is a very wasteful method of utilising our fuel resources. I am perfectly sure the Minister realises that and also that, if we are to be made independent of British coal, we must sooner or later tackle this question of the electrification of our turf resources. We may link that up with the promised development of the rural electrification. Whether we do embark on such a scheme or not we should take whatever steps are within our powers to see that the price to the consumer at present is of the lowest and that the content of the fuel as far as heating value is concerned is of the highest. There are continual complaints about the nature of the turf. Most of us thought that as the years went on there would be some improvement in the actual nature of the turf. There may be improvement in various areas but in other areas the turf is still of a poor quality. That may be inevitable but if it is possible to tap resources which produce a better quality it might be feasible for the Minister to concentrate upon those sites which give the better heavier mountainy turf rather than on the areas which produce the lighter form of turf so much more scorned by the person who uses turf at the present time. The value that we get from the turf, when we see that an additional sum of £170,000 is required, may not be as bad as it would appear. I am not as certain as other Deputies regarding the method adopted in compiling these figures and when we are told there is a loss of approximately 5/- per ton in the estimated cost of production by the county surveyors, we should be informed as to the actual cost of production by those local authorities. Does it in any way include the capital cost of the production? If the turf industry is to continue even on the present basis the capital cost should be spread over whatever number of years is considered the life time of this industry. I take it that the industry must continue at least for some years after the war and therefore the capital cost should be spread over that number of years to get an approximately correct accounting figure.

There is one point on which I would like the Minister's view. It is purely a local one and concerns the County Louth. There are the usual complaints from County Louth, and the Turf Development Board has dealt with them within its capacity. That does not mean to say that the consumers there are by any means satisfied but, as in many other places, they would be satisfied if they thought no preferential treatment was being accorded to other places. There are persistent remarks about turf passing through Louth from nearby areas of a higher quality en route to Dublin, whereas turf that is consumed in Louth—in Dundalk and Drogheda specifically—is brought from Donegal, or, as they might term it, from the furthest point of the country. I do not know whether there is any foundation to those statements, but they cause a great deal of unnecessary dissatisfaction with the situation. Perhaps the Minister would inquire into that point as to whether Louth is in any way discriminated against. If he would do that I am sure a great deal of the expressed dissatisfaction there might be quietened, if the statement is not correct. In reference to the food subsidy there is just one point that I wish to make. As the turf subsidy is part of the price of our freedom, I suppose the food subsidy is part of the price of our neutrality. A loss has been sustained and we have to pay the bill. We should receive an assurance, however, that the loss was minimised by the exercise of all due care, prudence and vigilance on the part of the tea importing company. I do not know whether this company has anything to do with the importation of coffee to the country.

The subsidy is for tea only.

The point that I wish to make is that, perhaps, this company might consider the feasibility of obtaining stocks of coffee and of applying to coffee the same method of subsidy that is being applied to tea so as to make the use of coffee more widespread than it is. As everybody knows, coffee is the ordinary drink of the vast masses of the plain people in America and Germany. In this country, before the war at least, it was reserved for the somewhat higher classes, as they are termed. With the coming of the war, and the conditions that obtain now, a lot of people have acquired a taste for coffee, so that it might be possible for the Minister to case the situation in regard to tea if he could subsidise the purchase of coffee on a somewhat similar basis to that obtaining for tea.

Finally, with regard to the sub-head dealing with the camps for turf workers. This item, I take it, represents part of the capital cost of the turf industry as such. We of the Labour Party, naturally, would be concerned very much about the condition of these camps. We should like to have some up-to-date information from the Minister as to the present condition of them, the state in which they are kept, the housing accommodation that is there, the availability of canteens or other methods of provisioning the workers, and the type of inspection that is carried out by the Department so as to protect the interests of the workers in these camps.

The persons responsible for the supply of turf to Dublin are a great body of men. They have succeeded in doing something which was supposed to be impossible. They have produced a large volume of smoke without fire. That has been the experience during the past three winters, including the present one, of the average Dublin citizen who is now anxious to know if the promise made so long ago of being supplied with good turf is ever going to be fulfilled. In the first year of the emergency we had to depend almost entirely on turf which was very bad stuff. It was wet and almost impossible to light. Last year there was an improvement in the quality of the turf made available, but this year the quality has again deteriorated. In the early stages of the emergency the average citizen was inclined to be reasonable about the thing: to admit that the turf had to be produced in a great hurry and perhaps out of bogs that were not quite suitable. That was the position two or three years ago. The bad stuff is still coming to Dublin and is being sold at a high price. The average Dublin housewife is very much concerned to know why she cannot get good turf.

I would not have spoken on this Estimate but for the fact that I come from a turf-producing area. I am interested in what has been said by other Deputies. Deputy Byrne (Junior), has just referred to the concern of the average Dublin housewife to get suitable fuel. I want to tell the House that if suitable fuel is not being made available it is not the fault of the workers in the turf-producing areas or of the bogs in the rural areas. In my view the people responsible are the various county councils and the officials who allow such turf to be sent to the cities. I have seen turf sold in Dublin that I would not use. What we do with it is we throw it into the bog-holes. I do not understand how the people in the city use it. Something should be done to see that turf of a superior quality is sent to the cities. I am sure my colleague, Deputy Davin, must be aware that at the present time there is a serious shortage of turf in the town of Birr, the centre of a turf-producing area. The turf in that area has been taken to this city with the result that the people in Birr cannot get any turf. That indicates that there has been bad management somewhere. Surely somebody must be responsible for that situation.

There is another matter that I want to bring to the Minister's attention, and that is the production of turf economically. We have one of the most suitable bogs in Ireland which is situate quite convenient to the towns of Tullamore and of Athlone—and which is in the home parish of our colleague, Deputy Boland—on which, in my opinion, turf could be produced on an economical and extensive basis.

It is in the district of Bellair. The Westmeath County Council have passed a resolution asking the Minister to take the necessary steps to see that this bog will be developed. The Offaly County Council have passed a similar resolution. The bog runs through both counties and there is a railway line straight through the bog. Very little would have to be done so far as the provision of transport is concerned. All the Great Southern Railways Company would have to do would be to erect a loading bank, because the railway tracks are there already through the bog.

There are firms in Tullamore and in Athlone prepared to take the turf, and there is also Goodbody's jute factory at Clara. There are other big factories in that part of the country willing to take turf from this bog. All these firms would, I am sure, be anxious to see this bog developed. I am of the opinion that it would mean a considerable saving of petrol, as lorries would not have to go to other bogs. The railway is there to take away the turf the moment it is suitable for use. The turf could be taken to Athlone, for instance, where there are industries which have agreed to purchase it once the bog is developed. This bog at Bellair, Offaly, is only three miles from the village of Ballycumber, eight miles from Athlone, and ten miles from Tullamore. The owners of the bog are the Irish Land Commission, I am told. The Westmeath County Council have done everything possible to get the bog developed, and the Offaly County Council also want it developed.

I was told on very good authority about a statement made by an engineer, a very high officer of the Turf Development Board. I think this particular individual happens to be county surveyor in Donegal at the present time. I am open to contradiction, but I believe that that is so. This man was put on this bog some years ago, and he said that it was one of two bogs in Ireland most suitable for a big scheme of turf production on a very economic basis. He said it was far more suitable as a turf-producing bog than Clonsast or the bog in Kerry, the name of which I cannot remember at the moment. I wish those in authority would take the necessary steps to see that this bog is developed. If necessary, I will forward more details to the Minister, showing that there are firms willing to take the turf, firms that have already signed orders.

If this bog is developed, there will be more turf available for the cities, because from that bog we will be able to supply our local factories and other industries. There is no coal coming in, and the industries we have at Portlaoighise, Tullamore, Clara and Athlone have to use turf. Before we send turf to the cities we will have to see that those industries are kept going with sufficient supplies.

I do not know who is responsible for the condition of the turf that is being sent to Dublin, but I will say that there is considerable neglect in some places because some of the turf coming in here is definitely not fit to be used. The Minister should take some steps to see that there is an improvement in the quality of the turf coming into the city. So far as prices are concerned they are rather high, and I am convinced that there is somebody making a good thing out of the turf. I do not know who is doing so.

When Deputy Roddy mentioned the point about producing turf through the efforts of private producers, I recollected that about two years ago a former Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Hugo Flinn, did discuss that matter with the House and he took a very favourable view of the possibilities of developing turf through the activities of private producers. I do not think that aspect has since been considered. In the south, at any rate, I do not think it has been dealt with by any local authority or Government Department to any extent. I should like to put this to the House, Quite a number of families in the turf areas in my own constituency on the Kerry border have gone in in a large way for turf production. They are people who have always cut turf and in normal times they sold it in the towns and villages. They employ labour and there is no doubt that the turf they produce and the price they charge compare very favourably with anything the local authorities or others have done. The best proof of that is that firms of the type that Deputy Flanagan referred to, industrial firms in County Cork, are always anxious to buy their turf. Those producers have not the slightest difficulty in disposing of the turf and it is generally of a very high quality.

I think in areas like that, where you have five or six families in a big turf district, if these families were organised into a unit under the direction of the local authorities and subsidised at the start, given money so that they could hire men—they might not always have capital on which to operate—and if a contract were entered into with them say from the end of March to the 1st of August for the production of a certain quantity of turf, you would get turf of a much better quality and at a cheaper rate than you are getting it at the moment.

On the question of price, I find it hard to understand the present prices in the cities. When I was listening to Deputies asking for information I was trying to work out what I would consider a reasonable cost of production for turf, putting it at a fairly high figure, a figure that would give the private producer a reasonable profit for turf that he would deliver at a distance of three or six or seven miles. I came to the conclusion that 30/- a ton would be a very fair price. I am estimating that on the price of turf in my own area, the price that is paid to people who bring the turf in their horse-carts over a distance of five or six miles. I regard that as the price for first-class turf. The discrepancy between that price and the price charged for an inferior quality of turf in the cities is amazing.

I can understand that the question of transport enters largely into the matter, and also the question of employment. It might also be said that people who produce turf privately do not count in the same manner in the fixing of prices because they may not allow full wages to members of their own families, and that is an important consideration if you are hiring labour. The fact that turf is £3 4s. 0d. a ton in the cities has enabled many people to raise the price to a figure they would not otherwise hope to get. I am satisfied that the price they get in the country areas gives them a reasonable return and they are satisfied.

One thing the people in the turf-producing areas have to contend with was referred to by Deputy Flanagan. That is the fact that very often turf is as scarce in the bog areas as in the cities. The reason is that the fuel importing people run fleets of lorries right to the ricks of turf, the turf is loaded on the bog, and that is a great attraction to the turf producers. If they can sell their turf in the bogs they will not go to the bother of breaking up ricks in order to sell the turf by the cart-load in the towns. That is one reason why there is a scarcity of turf in the very heart of the turf area.

Deputy Connolly referred to electrification schemes through the medium of turf. I have heard it said that the idea of producing electricity on the bogs has been dropped and I should like to have some information from the Minister as regards that matter.

We are dealing here with the cost of production of turf, not with the generation of electricity.

Deputy Connolly did refer to that matter and I am merely looking for information and I suggest that this has some relation to the price of turf. The suggestion I heard was that the cost of producing turf for the purpose of generating electricity would be so excessive that a scheme would be entirely uneconomic. Is there anything in that rumour? I do not want to carry the matter any further. As regards Deputy Connolly's suggestion that the Minister should subsidise coffee in order that it could be sold at a cheaper price and popularised in the country, am I not correct in saying that there are vast stocks of coffee in the country at the moment in comparison with the demand? I think Deputy Connolly will have to realise that as long as there is any tea available in the country, subsidisation of coffee will not result in any greater sales of coffee because if the people can get even half an ounce of tea in the week, 90 per cent. of the people in rural Ireland will not use coffee. That is an accepted fact.

I should like the Minister to tell me, when replying, whether the scheme which the late Deputy Flinn said he was considering in regard to dealing with private producers has been considered or not. There is one other point I wish to put to Deputy Connolly. He said that the Minister should take steps to see that the mountainy bogs that give the best hard turf were developed rather than low-lying bogs that yield a softer, whiter turf. Deputy Connolly possibly did not realise that the development of the mountain bogs in the early stages of turf production by local authorities was one of the reasons why there was such terrific wastage of turf, because the local authorities went into these mountain bogs and anybody who knows anything about turf production would have to admit that they cut the turf so late in the year that it could not be properly saved. The difficulty about utilising mountain bogs is that after July you cannot do any more work. These bogs are naturally subject to fogs much earlier in the year than bogs in low-lying areas. The one difficulty I see about dealing with mountain bogs in that connection is that the period of production is much shorter than it is in low-lying inland areas. I would not go as far as Deputy O'Reilly in saying that while the county council schemes were badly managed at the start there has been any great improvement in them. I am not at all satisfied about that. One of the reasons I say that, as far as County Cork is concerned, is, that I have seen the Army and the county council schemes worked side by side in a bog and certainly the work the Army did there as compared with the county council work was a tribute to the Army. The Army had the turf cut and saved and out of the bog while the others were thinking about it. It is not the fault of the actual manual worker that the work was not done efficiently because 90 per cent. of the road workers and the men who went in as county council turf workers in rural areas did know something about cutting turf. The fault was invariably at the top because the people in charge of the operations, like the people who made second and third cuttings of turf in the months of August and September, are the people responsible for the terrific wastage that occurred. It is scandalous to see in areas all over the country thousands of tons of turf still lying in the bogs from last year, the year before, and the year before that, that will never be any good for anything except possibly to spread out over the bog again at some future period. The county councils advertised to sell that turf as low as, I think, 10/- a ton. I do not think they could get anybody to take it away for nothing to get it out of their way. The real fault lay in the fact that the people who were directing the schemes had not sufficient knowledge of the practical management of turf production. My experience of one of the biggest bogs in North Cork is that whoever was in charge of the Army scheme—and I understand the officer in command was a man who would not have been expected to know anything about turf production—a city man— the Army scheme was worked far more efficiently than the county council scheme that was operated side by side with it.

I do not think that the best county council work that was ever done in any part of County Cork could possibly compare with the worst work done by any private producer cutting his own turf. I saw cases of county council schemes where they cut banks of turf in such a way that when the turf was cut and ready there was not room to spread it. The workers had to take the sods in their hands and walk 20, 30, 40 and 50 yards to a smooth patch where they could spread it. That showed complete lack of any practical knowledge of the details of turf production. I think the Minister, when he is replying on the question of cost, could take my figure. I do not think I am wrong in suggesting that a reasonable price for a ton of turf delivered at my door in my town by a man who produced it himself and delivered it by horse and cart a distance of four or five miles, would be 30/-.

What is the cost of carriage in that figure?

Several Deputies raised the question of the cost of turf. I want to start off by giving my own figure for the delivery of one ton of turf by a horse and cart a distance of four or five miles. Other Deputies, like Deputy Davin, who know all about the railway company and freight charges could possibly build up from that and the Minister could build up the other expenses incidental to turf production and let the people know how he arrives at the enormous figure of £5 a ton. It would clear the air to a certain extent.

I do not think the Minister was correct in saying yesterday, I think, in reply to a question, that there was not any wet turf coming into the cities. I am thinking of Cork City and some turf I have seen here recently. It is not wet turf in the sense that it is wringing wet, but I would go as far as to say that it is turf that was never dry, never properly saved, in the same way that a man cutting turf for his own household would save it. Actually the turf that is being sent to the city is always damp and heavy and will smoulder instead of light simply because it has never been properly saved.

Of more serious importance to the country generally and to future turf production than the subsidy we are asked to vote here, which has been the subject of some discussion, is the irreparable damage that is being done to turf production generally, due to the condition in which turf is being supplied to the cities, towns and institutions in the country. Probably the greatest obstacle to the production of turf in good condition is the fact that the emergency was sprung on the people and the Government in their effort to get supplies of turf had to take advantage of the bogs nearest to the biggest centres and, accordingly, had to operate undeveloped or virgin bogs. Anyone with a knowledge of turf will understand that for a number of years turf produced from a virgin bog will be of the poorest quality.

I said that three years ago and it was denied.

Reference has been made to the possibility of producing turf other than through the county councils or Turf Development Board. I fully agree with the suggestions made here by Deputies this evening, that the best possible production of turf at the cheapest price will be done by individuals. There is a technique in the handling of turf. Families in bog areas who have always produced turf for their own use, and possibly for sale locally, have a method and a knack of handling turf even under difficult weather conditions that are not available where mass production is carried on. I know the main difficulty in regard to the proposal I make is transport.

I was reading a newspaper for about two minutes, where Deputy Dillon is now sitting, when the Clerk of the Dáil sent me a note in which he states that it is not decorous to read newspapers in the Chamber during proceedings. I cannot see why Deputy Dillon is allowed to read a newspaper when I cannot.

I have finished reading now.

I do not see why I should be singled out when other Deputies are privileged.

He is lonesome without me.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again tomorrow.
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