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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Mar 1944

Vol. 93 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 31—Fisheries.

I move:—

That a sum, not exceeding £10,486, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1945, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Sea and Inland Fisheries, including a Grant-in-Aid.

There is not very much to be said regarding the figures of this Estimate because there is very little change. With the exception of three or four small items, the amounts put down are virtually the same as those in the Estimate for the current financial year, which was under discussion here in October last. The exceptions are: Sub-head A, where there is an increase of £229, which is necessary to cover the increased bonus payable during the coming year; sub-head B, where we have included an additional £50 to meet the increased cost of travelling; sub-head C, where we have reduced slightly the provision for advertisements; sub-head F (1), where we are pruning somewhat the former provision for grants to conservators; sub-head F (3), at which is shown a small increase to meet the rising cost of wages for watchers of State fisheries; sub-head G (2), where the amount with which to provide boats and gear for members of the Sea Fisheries Association is less by £1,000 than last year's figure. The explanation here is that the directors of the association are not anxious to incur liability for interest charges on borrowed money when they are having such difficulty in purchasing gear. At sub-head H, Appropriations-in-Aid, there is a difference from last year's figures in each of the three sub-divisions. From lettings of sporting rights we are hoping to collect £100 more than in the current financial year, and we are hoping that the receipts under the Fisheries (Tidal Waters) Acts will also exceed by £100 the receipts in the present year. On the other hand, the repayments expected from the Sea Fisheries Association are less by £2,000 than the figure set down in the 1943-44 Estimate. Such repayments proved to be unexpectedly high in the last couple of years, largely due to the earnings of the more successful members. Some of those have now cleared their accounts with the association, and consequently there will be less coming in next year. The flow of income to the association from hire-purchase accounts will consequently be reduced.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and, 20 members being present

I am sure that every member of the Dáil will be pleased to learn that, good as were the returns for the year 1942 as regards the quantity and value of the landings from our sea fisheries, they have been surpassed by the figures for the year 1943. When both sets of figures are compared with those for the year 1939, it becomes evident how willing our fishermen are to work hard when offered a fair return for their labour. The comparative figures are: 1943, 399,000 cwts.; 1942, 371,000 cwts.; and 1939, 237,000 cwts. It will be seen, therefore, that for the war years there is a very substantial increase in quantity, but the increase in value is even better. For 1943 it was £610,000; for 1942, £504,000; and for 1939, £233,000. The value, therefore, is more than doubled. As I mentioned last year, those results are especially satisfactory when we realise that the increase in quantity and value is due entirely to the efforts of our inshoremen with their comparatively small sized craft. The three vessels comprising our only deep-sea trawling fleet are being operated to full capacity, and their much needed contribution to our supply of fish food is appreciated, but the figures of their catches are more or less static.

As the Sea Fisheries Association will shortly be having its annual meeting, I do not wish to say anything in anticipation of the report which will then be presented to the members by the directors. I am, however, aware that it will be a satisfactory report as regards general results and turnover, the dark spot being the difficulties of obtaining marine engines and their component parts, fuel, oil and fishing gear. My Department and the Department of Supplies are doing everything possible towards the solution of the difficulties in this respect. As to the inland fisheries, the arrangement by which all our exports of salmon to the British market are purchased and paid for by the Ministry of Food in London continues to work smoothly enough, although naturally our supporters would like to see the terms improved in certain particulars. With the inland fishermen, as with the sea fishermen, there is the serious handicap arising from shortage of gear. I am not, however, without hope that matters will be mended in some degree during the coming months. The general output of our salmon, trout and eel fisheries for 1943 was about average under war conditions.

On previous occasions, I have assured Deputies that the directors of the Sea Fisheries Association were paying particular regard to the needs of smallholders in the Gaeltacht whose domestic economy is greatly facilitated by the provision of items such as curraghs or trammel nets, and I want to assure Deputies once more that this aspect of their duty is being kept well in mind by the directors. I do not think I have anything else to say except to mention that the gross total of our Fisheries Estimate this year is £38,271 as against £39,062 for the previous year. As, however, the Appropriations-in-Aid for this year are measured at something less than the amount for last year, the final result is a net increase of £1,034.

I trust that the few remarks which I intend to make upon this Estimate, and such arguments as I bring before the House, will be dealt with by the Minister in his reply precisely as I put them, and that in this debate we will not have an example such as we had in the debate which has just been concluded—example of the Minister using the very cheapest tricks and artifices in misstating the arguments which came from the Opposition Benches in order that he might answer his own misstatements instead of the real arguments put forward. When I come to deal with the Minister's opening statement on this Estimate, what strikes me as most remarkable is the baldness of that statement. This year, the House will pass a Bill of the very utmost importance. It will pass a Drainage Bill. It is inevitable that there will be a clash between the interests of the drainage authorities and of the fishery authorities, and I had hoped that the Minister, in introducing this Estimate to-night, would give us some indication of what is the future which he plans for the inland fisheries of this country. We have passed in this House legislation which enables the State to acquire the inland fisheries, district by district. That legislation was passed roughly five years ago, and so far the Minister for Fisheries has allowed it to be a dead letter. I should like to know from the Minister what is the intention of the Department. Is that power of acquisition of inland fisheries to remain a dead letter, or is it to be put into force? If it is put into force, how will the Minister deal with his end of what is a very complicated question—the question as to whether fisheries or drainage is to be of the greater importance?

I have already on the Drainage Bill expressed my personal views upon that matter, but I should like to have the views of the Minister and his Department. May I say in passing that I do hope that when the clauses which deal with inland fisheries in the Drainage Bill are being discussed, the Minister will be in his place and put before the House the views which he holds on that subject? That is not in any way animadverting on the ability of the Parliamentary Secretary to steer the Bill through the House, but it is expressing the hope that we shall get, not at second hand, but at first hand, the views of the Department upon the subject. I should like especially to know from the Minister how the question of weirs will be dealt with. Roughly speaking, about 100 years ago weirs were completely illegal in this country. They had been erected illegally, but they were subsequently by two statutes—one in the 40's and one in the 60's—legalised to a certain extent.

In a Parliamentary inquiry held, I think, in 1837, if my recollection serves me right—I did not expect that an Estimate of this importance would be taken at 12 o'clock to-night; I am trusting for the facts to my memory, which I should like to have refreshed before I addressed the House—this subject of inland fisheries was examined. There was a vast amount of evidence given as to the injury done to inland fisheries by fixed weirs which still exist. It was pointed out by one witness—it makes one feel almost hungry in these days when it is quite impossible to procure fish at a reasonable price—that when a weir was erected at the mouth of the Shannon, the price of salmon, which had ranged from 2½d. to 4d. per lb. in Limerick, suddenly jumped to 1/- and 1/4 per lb. owing to the scarcity of fish. It is also, I think, a matter of common knowledge to anybody who takes an interest in the life of old Dublin that at one time salmon was so plentiful that there was a clause in the indentures of apprenticeship of every apprentice in the City of Dublin that he should not be fed on salmon on more than a certain number of days in the week. That condition of fishing has completely ceased, and if the evidence given before the commission to which I have referred is correct, that is due almost entirely to the creation of these fixed weirs. Furthermore, 100 years ago the inland fisheries in this country gave employment to 100,000 persons. The employment fell in a period of ten years by 50 per cent.

I wonder how many people are in employment in our Irish fisheries at present? If the evidence given before the commission to which I have already so frequently referred is correct, that condition of affairs is due to the existence of fixed weirs. I do not profess to know anything about salmon, sea trout or their habits, beyond the ordinary knowledge which the man in the street has acquired. But, if the evidence which was then given is correct, the weirs are not only a hindrance to the drainage of the country but they are at the same time a source of very great damage to the inland fisheries. I read some two or three days ago an article in The Times on the condition of Switzerland at the present moment. I shall refer only to one part of it. Dealing with meat, it said that meat in Switzerland is extremely scarce, but that the inland waters of Switzerland were able to supply the people with all the fish they required. I wondered greatly why it is that there is not that abundance of fish from our inland fisheries on the slabs of the fishmongers in our towns. Everybody must be aware that there is great difficulty in getting any fish at all upon certain occasions. My suggestion to the Minister would be that in some area which is being drained he would consent to the entire abolition of weirs. I mean, of course, that when some large river is being drained he would exercise his compulsory powers to buy out the owners and sweep away the weirs and see what result that would have in increasing the fish population of our inland rivers and lakes. I know that from the Government benches there repeatedly comes the statement that we can do nothing during the emergency. I wonder if that argument is completely sound or entirely justified? I quite admit that there should be as much economy as possible during the emergency. But I do not see any reason why, during an emergency, money cannot be invested. Money devoted to buying out private rights in fisheries is not wasted; it is invested. The Government can at present get money in the open market at an extremely cheap rate. What the wizards of finance have been doing, I do not know. During the last war, governments found it impossible to borrow. Everybody who remembers that war will recall that the British Government had to float a 4 per cent. loan, free of income-tax, and that that loan did not even stand at par. Nowadays, the Government can borrow at 3 per cent. and the loan will stand at par at once. I do not see why, not merely for fisheries but for other forms of development, money should not be borrowed by the Government. It should be borrowed, not for the purpose of squandering but for the purpose of investment. Therefore, I submit that the argument that money should not be invested by the Government during the emergency is not sound.

I rise to deal with one point of which I am sure the Minister, representing the same constituency as myself, will have knowledge. During the fishing season last year, a peculiar situation arose in Rosslare Harbour. Owing to the emergency, the amount of fuel available for local fishing boats is limited. The result is that they can fish only at certain times and in certain ways. Last year, English boats came in. A fisherman brought me out in his boat and I watched them fishing up and down. I sent a telegram to what I considered was the appropriate Department and various other protests were made but no effective measure was taken because these boats were bigger than ours, had more fuel, and so swept the catch before our boats could get near them. I should like to see that prevented this year. It is all very well to talk about sending down a gunboat—that was; I think, done—but the right thing to do would be to write to the people on the other side and ask them to keep out of our waters. The Minister has, I am sure, heard about this matter and I am not attaching any blame to him because these things have to go through certain channels. It is a pity, however, to see such things happen.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to a number of grievances affecting fish merchants and fishermen in South Kerry. About two years ago, the railway and shipping companies made an order that fish which reached Dublin after 6 p.m. was not to be loaded on the night boat. This was an extraordinary procedure because the boat did not leave the North Wall until 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. The result is that the fish reaches the English markets 24 hours later than it should. This delay is very serious during periods of warm weather and, as a result, really large quantities of fish were condemned in the British markets last year and the year before, and the merchants suffered substantial losses. The merchants are so anxious that the fish should reach the English markets with the least possible delay that they offered to pay the railway companies increased freight if their fish would be loaded on the night it reached Dublin, but this offer was refused. I cannot understand why this rule was introduced. I discussed this matter with the Labour Deputies and they assured me that the dockers of Dublin were prepared to load the fish, provided the railway and shipping companies were satisfied. Of course, the dockers would have to be paid overtime. As this rule is in force for only two years, and as the British Government is anxious to get as much fish as possible from this country, I fail to see why the Minister cannot get the railway and shipping companies to accept the fish from South Kerry for the night boat. Unless the Minister assists us, there is no use in our trying to force this matter. If the Minister does not get these facilities for the shipment of fish from South Kerry, it will mean that the merchants will suffer heavy losses.

The merchants of South Kerry are of opinion that the Fishery Department is not helping the industry to the extent it should. This Department does not keep the merchants informed as to the regulations made by the British Government relating to fish exported from this country. I consider that such regulations should be published and explained in the Press. Many merchants are unable at the present time to get detailed particulars of the levy which is imposed by the British Government on fish forwarded from this country. They have nobody from whom to get the information except their salesmen in England. I was speaking to a merchant recently and he informed me that he wrote on two occasions to the British Ministry asking for information concerning the levy but his letter was not acknowledged. This is a very unsatisfactory situation, and I think that the Department of Fisheries should give all the information possible to the merchants in connection with such regulations.

I saw in the paper a few weeks ago that the controlled price of fish imported from this country had been reduced in England. I should like to know from the Minister if the British Government consulted his Department concerning this reduction, and what representations his Department made in connection with the reduction. The result of this reduction in price is that our fishermen will receive about 5/- a hundred—126 fish—less than formerly. That is a serious matter for the fishermen because they pay an increased price for their oil and a high price for all kinds of gear. I think that our Government should oppose in the strongest manner this reduction in price. I am not satisfied that this Government or the last Government gave the fishing industry the assistance and help it should receive. One must remember that the fishing industry is our second most important industry.

I admit that good work has been done by the Sea Fisheries Association and I also admit that, were it not for the good work done by that Association, our fishermen would not be able to enjoy to-day the great boom in the industry which they are enjoying. I admit that the problems of the industry are difficult of solution. It is a very peculiar calling and is characterised by either a feast or a famine. The greatest problem with which this industry is faced is to find a means by which the surpluses and gluts may be successfully and economically preserved against the days of want. If we can solve this problem, we shall, indeed, have solved the greatest problem in the fish trade. I know it is very easy for me to criticise the policy of the Government and that it is far more difficult to suggest methods by which the Government could help the trade. I am aware that we could consume in this country all the prime fish landed by our trawlers, and it is on very rare occasions we find that there is a surplus of fish here. At certain times of the year, large quantities of herrings and mackerel are landed on our shores, and the difficulty then is how to market and dispose of them. I think that our Government should do everything in its power to discover means by which we can preserve these kinds of fish when they are here in abundance.

On the last occasion on which I spoke here on this Estimate, I directed the Minister's attention to methods that have been adopted in other countries for the curing or kippering of herrings and mackerel. I think that that is a matter which is worth paying attention to, and I feel it essential that we improve our methods in that regard. It appears to me that there is a great future for the kippering or curing of mackerel and herrings, especially with the aid of refrigeration. There was always a market on the Continent for cured herrings and mackerel, and I believe that there will be a very great market when this war is over.

I have seen in the newspapers recently that the Canadian Government have spent large sums of money on the tinning or canning of mackerel, and that they have derived large profits from that industry. The people on the Continent of Europe have now got accustomed to tinned fruit, tinned vegetables, tinned fish, and so on, and I think it should be possible for us to compete with foreign countries in the supply of tinned mackerel or herrings on the Continent when this war is over. I have also seen that the Sea Fisheries Association have discovered a new method of curing fish, and I hope that every facility will be given to them by the Government to enable them to continue in that work.

When we come to consider the post-war problems of this country, I think it would be advisable for our Government to set up some committee of inquiry to ascertain our post-war problems. The British Government recently set up a committee to inquire into the post-war herring industry, and I think it would be advisable to set up a similar committee here. I would particularly impress on the Government the necessity for extending our home market, so far as the consumption of fish is concerned, and the securing of new markets. I think that one of the best things that could be done here would be the helping of the home market, and the encouraging of our people to eat more fish. We consume very little fish here, and it has been admitted that we are not a fish-eating race. I think that the reason we consume such small quantities of fish in this country is the fact that the consumer has to pay too much for the fish; that there is too great a difference between the price paid to the fisherman and the price charged to the consumer. I think that if the Government were to establish a flat rate for the transport of fish by the various carrying companies—railways, and so on—the price of fish to the consumer would drop. If a flat rate were to be adopted by the railway companies, it would mean that people in, say, Kilkenny, could get fish at the same price as people in, let us say, Tralee.

I also think that the Government should spend as much money as possible on the construction of boats for our fishermen, so as to enable them to compete with foreign countries. I do not suggest that we would be able to compete with great countries like Britain. We could not do so in our present circumstances, but I think that our Government should encourage the building of a number of small trawlers because, by doing so, we could ensure a sufficient supply of fish for our own people during the seasons when fish are plentiful. I should also like to see our Government buying a certain number of large trawlers which could go to sea during all seasons of the year, so as to supply our home market with a steady supply of fish during the winter. In my opinion, the Government should also set up refrigerating plants in all parts of the country, and I think that some form of control should be set up after this war. I always thought that it was extraordinary to see our boats going to sea and bringing in fish, when the markets both here and in England were already glutted with fish, and no attempt being made to preserve or cure the fish. I think that the Government should make some effort to control that. Naturally, when there is too much fish on the market, the price drops, so far as the fisherman is concerned. I think that there should be some method of control in that regard. Another matter to which I should like to draw attention is that of British or other foreign trawlers fishing within the three-mile limit off our coasts.

God be with the days of 15 years ago, when "Dev." told us what he would do when he came into power.

I should like to impress on the Minister that it is no use for this Government or any other Government to try to help our fishermen unless they can give protection to our fishermen against foreign trawlers. There is no use in giving subsidies, and so on, to our boats, if they are not to be protected against the depredations of the foreign trawlers.

Could they not ram them?

Some people say that it would cost too much to afford that protection, but I consider that it would be money well spent if protection were given to our fishermen, inside the three-mile limit at any rate, because such a large number of our people are dependent on that industry for their livelihood. I consider that sufficient protection is not given to our boats. I am aware that these matters are fixed by international agreement, but I believe that such countries as Norway and Iceland will not accept this three-mile limit.

Before concluding, I should like to say that I think it is a mistaken policy to have agriculture and fisheries under the same Minister. The problems associated with agriculture would occupy the whole time of any Minister while the problems of the fishing industry, which are very peculiar, would also provide fulltime occupation for any Minister. As matters stand at the moment, it appears to be obvious that, owing to the importance of agriculture, the fishing industry is not getting a fair deal from the Government.

I am most grateful to the Deputy who has just sat down for refreshing very old memories. When I heard about the iniquities of the foreign trawlers, my mind went back to a meeting held in Anagry, County Donegal—Deputy MacFadden will remember it—12 golden years ago, at which Senator Connolly, as he was then known, was the guest speaker. Deputy Brian Brady and Deputy Neal Blaney were there and there were torchlight processions. The theme of the meeting was: "When ‘Dev.' gets in, we will chase the foreign trawlers." He has been chasing them ever since and has not caught them yet.

They are chased now.

Deputy Esmonde told us that they were prancing around Rosslare Harbour a few days ago.

And Deputy Healy, as I understand, has been remonstrating strongly against their threatening the Irish fisheries and suggesting that something will have to be done. I remember those very words being used in Anagry 12 years ago. Having proclaimed that something would have to be done, Senator Connolly explained to the admiring multitude that the thing required to be done was to put "Dev." in and get rid of the trawlers. We have had "Dev." in for 12 years now and we still have the trawlers. I wonder what requires to be done now to get rid of the trawlers. Is it to put "Dev." out?

For all the change he has made in the past 12, we might as well have him for 12 more. According to Deputy Healy, the condition of the fishing industry is so deplorable after the past 12 years that its condition could not be worse in the next 12 years. I am grateful to the Deputy for recalling that meeting to my memory, for calling back that pleasant winter's evening in Anagry long ago.

Tell us something more.

I thought I would refresh the Deputy's mind about it. I was most familiar with it, as I then sat for Donegal. I was also grateful to Deputy Healy for his reference to the unsuitability of the present Minister for the Department of Fisheries.

I did not say that.

He reminds me of his colleagues who always praise the wheat crop as being eminently desirable for others but not for their constituencies. The Minister for Agriculture is a most admirable Minister, but not for the Department in which he is interested.

I spoke of a separate Minister for Fisheries.

The Deputy knows that there are more ways of killing a cat than by choking it with a pound of butter. There are two or three specific questions in connection with this Department about which I want to ask the Minister. One is that it seems to me that one of the future industries of this country will probably be the tourist industry. That seems to be accepted on all sides. We are spending a great deal of money on providing financial facilities for the Tourist Development Board. One of the distinguishing characteristics of tourist areas in this country is the availability of virtually free brown trout fishing and very cheap sea trout fishing to visiting tourists. We cannot do very much to improve the sea trout fishing of our rivers, except by patrolling them carefully and preventing poaching, but it does seem to me that a good deal could be done through the State hatcheries for the improvement of brown trout in our rivers and lakes.

I am well aware that if you go to an expert on brown trout fisheries and advocate the introduction of a large quantity of fry into the rivers, he will proceed to explain to you that all the fry are eaten up before they become mature fish. I do not believe a word of it. No matter what proposal you make for the improvement of brown trout rivers, experts are prepared to tell you that it is all futile and gets you nowhere. I believe it is well worth trying, if even only in a restricted area as an experiment, the introduction of very large quantities of brown trout fry into the sporting rivers of this country. I believe that, by that means, we could increase the trout population of certain of our lakes and rivers. I believe it would be one of the most effective inducements to tourists to come to this country.

A very large number of our tourists may naturally be expected to come from Great Britain and America, the English-speaking countries. In both of these countries fishing is a very favoured holiday sport of those who travel far afield. Fishing can be had in the West of Ireland from Donegal, through Connemara, down to Kerry, on terms more advantageous than almost anywhere else in the world. I think the Minister should resolve to improve those fisheries to the limit of his capacity, and, knowing the objections that will be made to the general introduction of fry into the rivers, I urge on him to take a limited area and make the experiment of introducing fry, so that we can have proof that the experts who decry that system, or those of us who advocate it, are right or wrong.

I think it was Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney who wondered why the slabs of the fish merchants' shops all over the country were not loaded with fish. I do not know why they are not, except that the fish merchants do not buy the fish. Amongst my many other callings, I am a fishmonger. I deal with the Sea Fisheries' Association, and I must say that you would find it hard to transact business with any more courteous or helpful organisation than that organisation. They have a stall in the wholesale fish market, and anyone who wants to order fish from them can ring them up on Wednesday, if he wants the fish for sale on Friday. I can assure him that he will get every conceivable assistance possible for a salesman to give, and I further assure him that he will get prompt delivery of any fish he may see fit to order at, so far as I know, as competitive a price from the Sea Fisheries' Association stall as from any other wholesale fishmonger in the country.

But there is this odd lacuna to which I wish to direct the Minister's attention, that the Sea Fisheries' Association are so scrupulous to live up to their name that they do not handle salmon, with the result that if you want to lay a wholesale order with the Sea Fisheries' Association for £30 or £40 worth of fish for your Friday trade, you cannot do so. You cannot go to the Sea Fisheries' Association to buy it, if you require salmon, because salmon being one of the most expensive of all fish, it is naturally the fish of which one buys the smallest quantity; it is not practical politics to order perhaps two salmon from one wholesale merchant and ten or 15 boxes of fish from the Sea Fisheries' Association. If you require salmon in your order, you have to go to some other wholesale merchant for your whole order, or quite likely be told that they cannot supply you inasmuch as you are not taking the bulk of your fish from them.

I sympathised with Deputy Healy when I heard him expressing some surprise at the wide difference there is in the price paid to fishermen and the price charged for fish. I stated repeatedly that herring is a most valuable food. Where there is a surplus I should like to see it sold in the streets of Dublin at the rate of three or four a penny and, if necessary, the Government should enable that to be done. But I am not at all sure that Deputy Healy truly represents the mind of the fishing industry and that those concerned would like to see the price of fish brought so low that it would be readily available to everybody. I think the orthodox view is that if there is a glut of fish it is better to cast it back to the sea rather than sell it very cheaply. I think that is criminal. I am not making any allegation against Deputy Healy, but I suggest that that is the orthodox view in the fish trade. The trade feels that if the price falls below a certain figure it is no longer making an economic price.

That is not so.

If Deputies study what Deputy Healy said they will find that occasions when large quantities of fish are in the market are deplored.

When fishermen are not able to earn a living at the industry.

Because prices had gone too low. That is what I am deploring. Deputy Healy seems to suggest that by taking fish off the market or by dumping it into the sea people who want to eat fish will pay more for it. I am in the fishing trade longer than the Deputy. The Deputy has got his information second-hand. I want to see fish sold to the people as low as a penny each. I would like to see them get fish four a penny. Deputy Healy complains that the fishermen cannot make a livelihood. I see the force of that argument. I am told that when vast quantities of herring are brought in and when there is no market they are thrown back into the sea. There is virtually no sale for herring since the German and American markets were closed to us. Has Deputy Healy ever heard of herring being thrown back into the sea?

I never saw it done.

Kerry is a mackerel county. Is it not true that herring were thrown back into the sea?

I have seen it happen.

It is better to face up to these things rather than to cover them up. The Fisheries Association should act as a go-between, so that surplus fish should be available for the poor of Dublin, who are often hungry. I assert that nine out of ten, aye, 99 out of 100 people in Dublin would be glad of a herring as it makes a good dinner. It would be a source of consolation to everybody interested in the poor to know that whatever there is a scarcity of, there is an abundance of cheap fish for people in straitened circumstances, so that they could provide for themselves and their children. I agree with Deputy Healy that we should not underestimate the difficulties. While it is true that you may have a glut of fish one Monday, it is quite possible that on the following Monday herrings would be fourpence apiece. I want a flexible machine so that the surplus will be available to the poor and that artificial scarcity would not be created. It should not be beyond the resources of the Department to achieve that end. I prophesy that if there is a guarantee given to men fishing for herring, whatever the state of the market, and that the association would step in and take any glut created by a big catch, much more herring would be brought in.

In times like these if there was a large influx of herring to Dublin, Cork, Limerick, or Waterford it would be greatly to the advantage of the poor. Fish could then be popularised as a desirable diet for the poor. I am not blaming the Minister. I am in the fishing trade and I know what the difficulties are. But I think the Minister might have done more as a go-between between the fishermen who catch fish and those who would be glad to eat it if they were able to buy it at a reasonable price.

I should be glad if the Minister could give us some outline of the reasons why it is that fish appears to be so cheap at the quayside when landed and so dear in the cities where it is consumed. Sometimes plaice would be 3/- a lb. on Monday and only 1/8 on Thursday, largely depending on the class of catch that arrives and very often on the state of the weather, which may be quite mild in Dublin but stormy off the Kerry coast. Where you find a widespread disparity between the price paid fishermen and the price paid by consumers it would be helpful if the Minister would explain the reasons that he believes can be assigned for that position, so that Deputy Healy and others in the trade, who are conversant with it, might correct any delusion under which the Minister was labouring.

I wish to call the Minister's attention to the next question. Perhaps he could say whether he will allocate some of the flax crop for the manufacture of thread for net making. I understand that there is a firm in Dublin, the owner of which was engaged in the linen trade in the north, capable of making a suitable thread. I suggest that, at least, the possibility of supplying trammel nets and long lines from this source should be explored as a great deal more fish would be available if trammel nets could be procured. I know that the Department is doing its best in the matter of getting supplies, but I wish to find out what has been attempted in the way of supplying a flaxen substitute. There should be a certain amount of rationalisation in the market. It has often happened that fish landed on the west coast is carried to the east coast and passes on its way fish landed on the east coast or elsewhere, being brought to the west.

When I was on the Sea Fisheries Association I made a point always of trying to get the authorities to have zoning carried out in marketing. I know that that is a difficult thing to do. The difficulty might be overcome or the position might be eased with refrigeration. I should like to know to what extent refrigeration has been introduced at landing places around the coast.

With regard to the Sea Fisheries Association, I suggest to the Minister that, in the matter of the periodical elections of the committee that take place, an instruction should be issued to the paid officials of the association not to interfere too much in these elections; not to interfere with the fishermen or try to influence them. I came across a case in which the paid officials of the association actually went so far as to collect some of the fishermen's voting papers. I do not think that is quite fair. I think that the voters ought to be left to themselves to decide whom they will vote for.

There is another matter that I desire to draw the Minister's attention to, and that is, the question of the boards of conservators. I refer particularly to the Galway Board of Conservators and to the denial, under the present system of election of conservators, of representation to anglers' associations. There is in my constituency the Corrib Anglers' Association. It is an association which has erected a hatchery out of moneys raised voluntarily through subscriptions and functions of various kinds. Last year the association put 600,000 fry into the Corrib. That association is doing a better job in the work of the conservation and propagation of fish than is the board of statutory conservators. I think it is most unfair—to put the matter no stronger than that—that a very numerous body of that kind, having all classes of the community as members, should have been denied representation. I should also like to learn from the Minister whether amending legislation, dealing with the constitution of these boards, is to be introduced in the near future. I think that the time has now come when some recognition should be given to these anglers' associations. They are doing very good work all over the country and, in my opinion, they are the best instrument which the Minister has for the purpose of creating a healthy public opinion for the preservation and proper conservation of the fisheries throughout the country, and particularly the free fisheries. They are helping to create a sporting instinct, which is a much better protection for our fisheries than any protection that can be afforded by the paid water-keepers. As I have referred to the water-keepers, I should like to point out that in the case of the board of conservators that I have already mentioned, practically all of its revenue is spent on water-keepers for the vested interests—the salmon fisheries in the Galway district—while very little is spent on the protection of the trout fisheries on the Corrib. I know very well that there are many difficulties to be faced at the present time, and hence I do not wish to be too critical of the Minister and his Department in these matters. In conclusion, I wish to stress that the time has come when some recognition should be given to the anglers' associations, particularly associations such as the one to which I have referred, which are capable of doing big things.

As one who represents a coastal constituency, there are a few points that I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister. Most of them have been mentioned already. One is the question of harbour improvements. I noticed in the newspapers a few days ago that another Minister, in the course of a letter to the Cork Chamber of Commerce or Harbour Commissioners, mentioned that the Government proposed to spend a certain amount of money on harbour improvements. In the constituency that I represent there are a number of harbours, including the biggest harbour in the country. With the exception, however, of Dún Laoghaire and Howth, every one of them is in a wrecked condition. You would want an amphibious tank to get into them.

The question of harbour improvements does not arise on this Estimate.

It does to this extent, that the Minister has responsibility for the control of fisheries. I think we will all agree that, when you catch fish you must have some place to land them, and the usual place for the boats to land the fish is a harbour. I respectfully suggest, therefore, that the Minister might, with the assistance of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, consider the question of keeping the harbours in a proper state of repair and, if necessary, effecting any improvements in them that may be necessary. It would not take a great deal to put them into a proper state of repair. At the moment they are useless to the fishermen and not a very pleasant spectacle for sightseers who may come as tourists.

The other point that I want to mention is the question of protection. At the moment, I take it that it is not possible to do much in the way of providing adequate protection. In view of the fact that we were not able to do much in that respect before the war, we are not likely to be able to do it now, owing to the lack of the necessary fuel and the fact that the boats we have are wholly inadequate to cope with the heavier and faster boats which come into our harbours, even harbours which are close to built-up areas. You have not to go to outlying regions like South Kerry in order to find those foreign boats coming in. I have had complaints from people connected with the fishing industry in Dun Laoghaire. They find that when they go to sea in the early morning there are those large trawlers—British, Scotch or Welsh, sometimes two or three of them—in the fishing grounds. When the Irish boats go out these move off. It is not good enough that they should be able to parade up and down the coast, taking the prime catch before the native fishermen have an opportunity of pursuing their work.

I wonder if the Minister could give the House any indication as to the amount of fish that is caught, taking one year with another. Can he say if there has been any increase in the catches? Can he give a rough indication as to the number of people employed in the fishing industry, and the income which the industry brings to them? My last point is that I think it should be possible to have some organised scheme of distribution to make fish available at a cheaper rate than it is at the moment. I quite appreciate Deputy Healy's point of view that the fishermen must live. I congratulate him on being so outspoken, and hope that he does not get the pants taken off him at the next Fianna Fáil meeting. It is quite true to say that in Dublin and in the larger cities and towns fish is now regarded by everybody as a luxury. A few years ago herrings could be had at four for a penny. Now you have the reverse position, when one herring costs 3d. or 4d. People who could formerly have an adequate meal on herrings cannot do so now because the price is absolutely beyond their means. Those who formerly could enjoy a certain amount of fish, not perhaps the select varieties favoured by some, but at any rate an adequate meal at a cheap price, are no longer able to do so. I think that the Minister and his Department have not paid sufficient attention to the distribution of fish at a reasonable price.

I would like to get some information from the Minister about the fresh-water fishermen, principally on the upper reaches of the Shannon and its tributaries. These people are paying for nets and lines and they are controlled by the Electricity Supply Board to such an extent that they can only fish a certain number of hooks. Two men on a co-operative who were able to fish 1,500 hooks are now reduced to 300. I would like the Minister to give me some information about the intentions of the Department regarding these men. They are making a precarious livelihood. They have no nets and I am glad that Deputies Bartley and Healy raised that point. If they try to darn their nets they are prosecuted in court. I think that if the Minister agrees to meet these men some time they would be glad to put forward their case to him. I have advised them to go to a lawyer to get their position clarified, and I would be very thankful if the Minister would let me know how they stand at the moment.

I would like to draw the Minister's attention to one matter in which I am interested and which affects thousands of people in this country. The Sea Fisheries Association and all the others are evidently catching fish as plentifully as ever they were caught, but speaking for the rural community, fresh fish never reaches us. Cities and towns are invariably well catered for, but fresh fish does not reach the rural community. In times gone by we had a certain type of fish called stock fish, cured haddock, ling, cod or hake. We get very small quantities of that. Although I am living on the seaboard I have not seen fresh fish for months, and I think for months also we have not been able to secure salt fish—this cured fish I have mentioned.

I am only one of thousands in the rural districts in the same position. We have fast days and Fridays throughout the year, and in the rural districts we have to work hard. It is very unsatisfactory to come in to a meal and find you have only what is called dip— they have nothing else to fall back on. I have seen reports of boats coming in with large catches of fish which had to be dumped back in the sea because there was no demand for it. I am asking the Minister to see that this cured fish can be bought in the country shops as it was in years gone by. Every country shop at the cross-roads used to have fish for sale. Now it is not available. The only cured fish I have seen in a length of time is cured mackerel, and mackerel is not a tasty fish to eat because it tends to repeat. People in the country will not eat fish like that; they want cod, ling, haddock or hake. I take it that the fish are still in the sea and that the boats are there. Whatever little we did get of salted fish was this cured mackerel which had not been dumped back in the sea. When we do get the other fish we have to pay 2/- a pound for it although you would get the best chop for about 2/-. I wonder why this fish is not available and I would ask the Minister to see that instead of dumping this fresh fish back in the sea, it is sent to curing installations which should be established. People in the country could then revert to that type of fish, and it would be available for fast days and Fridays throughout the year. I ask the Minister to see that people in the country, who are the hardest workers, and who have no chance of getting fresh fish, should be able to get this fish which they appreciate in plentiful supply after their hard day's work.

Mr. Larkin

It is most enlightening to listen to the views of authorities on production and retailing of fish on both sides of the House. The underlying suggestion was that the aim of the fish trade was always to get the highest price. Deputy Dillon talked about the dearness of salmon, but with all due respect to Deputy Dillon, cod was the highest-priced fish in Dublin for three weeks. Where are you going to get cod? The best fishing grounds, the White Sea and the waters of Ireland, are closed to the trawlers of particular countries. But our trawlers are only a joke. Most of them are only little better than row-boats and they are quite unfitted to undertake the long journeys which would be required for successful fishing.

I quite agree with the views of the men who know the subject. Deputy Healy's family have been in the fishing trade for generations and were among the largest shippers of fish. He suggested that the whole system of carrying fish should be overhauled in regard to the railways and the Sea Fisheries' Association. I had a different criticism some years ago about the association, and we know their record. To-day, it is true, they are more keen and adaptable to the needs of the situation, and of course they are always courteous when you ring them up on the telephone. What are the facts? We get plenty of fish in Dublin, and so long as there is private speculation in fish we will not be concerned about supplies. I happen to direct the organisation of the workers in the best fish shops in Dublin. The whole concern of these shops is with choice fish. They do not want to handle coarse fish, or to sell you a dozen herrings. They do not want the poor people—they want to sell salmon, plaice and sole. They have men doing nothing all day except filleting fish for their particular petit-bourgeois customers, but the ordinary worker does not get any more chance in Dublin than do the people Deputy O'Donovan spoke about.

There is a market for fish, but no fisherman is willing to go to sea under the present conditions without getting a guaranteed week. We had a statement made here to-night, and it will be introduced before the morning's light, in connection with putting of fishermen outside the scope of a particular Act on the grounds that they were not wage workers. The man who goes out to sea to fish is like his comrade who goes down a stokehold of a ship—he must be mad, in view of the wages they get. But, surely, when a man comes in with a good catch, he is entitled to get a guaranteed price. Why do they throw it back into the sea? Suppose there is a load of 150 cran landed at a particular port—the man who owns it can get a decent price only for 20 cran, and he has not even facilities to make manure out of the remainder. The key to the situation is refrigeration and proper icing plants, but even the best of icing plants will not keep fish fresh for shipment overseas.

These men land their fish in Kerry; the fish leave Kerry at a certain hour and, after a journey of seven or eight hours, they arrive in Dublin. In Dublin they are immediately handled because, recognising that it is perishable stuff, the handlers are prepared to go out of their way to get the cargo dealt with. There are occasions, after the the fish reach Kingsbridge, when the men will not be allowed to handle them. If the train is only a quarter of an hour late, they are told: "You cannot handle them." The result is that the fish deteriorate by the time they reach the London market.

We know we have not a market here for such fish. You have, first of all, to get to realise that the people of this country are not fish-minded. They have never been educated in the use of fish. Those who are anxious to have fish do not often get the opportunity to purchase them. We hear all the talk about ling and other dried fish. It is impossible to get that at the moment. The Norwegians are for the time being out of business and we never undertook that method of curing fish. There are very few people in this country who know how to dry fish. We do not kipper fish to any extent. The few thousand fish kippered in Dublin do not amount to a row of pins. You want a modern refrigerating plant in Dublin and you want the industry centralised. How much better it would be if you could send the fish from Donegal or Kerry into a central depot with the assurance that, when it reaches there, there will be at least a guaranteed price? If the market is tight you might get a little more, but at least you will get the guaranteed price. If I were a fisherman, I would not land my catch without a reasonable return for all my labour.

An important problem is the problem of distribution. Fancy a man from West Cork saying he cannot get fresh fish, or any fish. Outside the White Sea, Iceland or Newfoundland, I believe there are more fish around our coasts than in any other part of the world. We have all classes of fish around our coasts. At times there are masses of fish and yet we never do anything about it. It is a tremendously vital trade. It is all very well to talk in a flippant way about this matter, but it is a fundamental thing in our economy. Those men who are engaged in fishing want some return for their labour. They are not influenced altogether by love of country, or the development of the country in an economic sense, when they are engaged in fishing. The fisherman wants some monetary return. I wonder how any of us would feel if, having laboured in the catching of fish, and sent them to the area of distribution, we are told that our catch is rejected. That is the position of fishermen who do not get even the cost of carriage for their fish.

I suggest it is the duty of the High Commissioner in London to look after our interests in this connection. He is a very able man and very active in matters which concern ourselves and our friends across the water. I suggest a representation from the High Commissioner would help to ease the situation. These gentlemen sell fish in the London market at Billingsgate. I do not suppose our representations would carry much weight at the present moment with regard to prices in England, but at least we could keep the fish until we get an assurance that the price on the market in London is fixed. There is no use in having fish landed here and then being unable to ship them. As Deputy Healy says, as soon as the boats get orders they have to go to sea at once, but if there were proper organisation the fish could be sent out in time. It would not take an hour to ship all the fish that would be sent from Galway or Kerry. It is the kind of traffic that can be quickly handled.

One would imagine that the Government might think it advisable to get some experts to organise this industry on a proper basis. The Minister for Agriculture has more than sufficient to do at present in connection with agriculture. For six days we have listened to statements relating to his multifarious duties and the activities of his Department. Now he is being asked to deal with fisheries. Surely the Government ought to concentrate on this industry and have it organised in a better manner. If you go down O'Connell Street, you can see the prices that are being charged for fish. If you go to any of the first-class shops, such as Dunn's, you will see the prices they are charging for different fish. They can charge anything for choice cuts. We know they are not anxious to send salmon to England at existing prices there, because they could get far more for it in Dublin. The price last week for salmon was 8/- a lb. Then, as regards plaice and sole, they are also fetching high prices. I remember the time when the people would not buy plaice. At the moment sole is almost worth its weight in gold.

Why not fillet herrings, or turn them into paste, if necessary, and supply our institutions? There are times when fish are thrown into the sea, but when there is such a surplus why should it not be distributed among our institutions? Take an institution like Grangegorman, where you have thousands of patients who are very willing to have food of this kind. That is a point that might be considered. There never need be any surplus on the market. All you want is proper organisation. I am sure there is no one more concerned than Deputy Dillon about those matters, about the poor of Dublin especially.

If you were to take a cart to-morrow and try to sell fish to the ordinary poor of Dublin, how would you fare? The fact is that the people are not fish conscious. They would sooner pay for a fillet of steak or a chop than buy a dozen of fish, even if they cost only threepence. We will have to educate them and get the dieticians to tell them the value of the fish. If you have kippered herrings or finnan haddock the people will buy them. Finnan haddock is a very tempting fish. If we could have education in relation to fish imparted under the supervision of the Department, we would be doing a good day's work for the country.

I was glad to hear the Minister say he hoped to be in a position shortly to obtain supplies of nets and gear. I hope the nets and gear will be allocated to the various districts in an equitable manner, so that fishermen all along the sea coast, and not the fishermen of any particular part of the country, will benefit. I have received representations in this connection from the fishermen of the Erne estuary. The salmon season commences there soon and these men are in a very bad way for nets and gear. I hope steps will be taken to give these necessary supplies to those engaged in the salmon fisheries on the Erne.

The principal reason why I intervene in the debate is to find out from the Minister what control he has over appointments made by boards of fishery conservators throughout the country. There is general dissatisfaction in South Donegal over the appointments recently made by the Ballyshannon Board of Conservators. There were vacancies for a secretary and an inspector and, although the fishery district which is governed by the Ballyshannon Board of Conservators contains two of the most Irish-speaking parishes in Ireland, Glencolumbcille and Kilcar, Irish was not made a condition of the appointment and the successful applicants have no knowledge of the Irish language.

I do not know whether these appointments are subject to the sanction of the Minister or not. I am not interested in any particular candidate, but when local authorities throughout Donegal make appointments, the various Departments, particularly the Department of Local Government, insist that the person appointed must have a competent knowledge of Irish. These positions in the gift of the board of conservators are pretty well paid; an inspector is very well paid, and I do not see why exceptions should be made in these cases. It would be interesting to learn from the Minister what his attitude is to appointments of this nature and whether, in spite of Government policy in regard to the revival of the Irish language, appointments of this nature, in the very heart of the Gaeltacht, are given to non-Irish speakers.

I should also like to know if there are any qualifications necessary, or if any qualifications are sought for in connection with positions of this nature. I understand that for the position of inspector there were over 60 applicants, some of them with years of experience at fishery weirs and various fisheries in different parts of the country. But a gentleman who had no connection with fisheries, no previous fishery experience, was appointed an inspector. I want to know if that appointment was subject to the sanction of the Minister and if he is prepared to stand over that. I do not know what powers he has in connection with the matter but, if he has not got them, I suggest that he should take powers to see that these appointments are made in the way that appointments generally are made.

By the Fianna Fáil clubs.

Mr. Brady

No, by the Local Appointments Commissioners. As I say, I am not interested in any individual, but I know that there is general dissatisfaction at the reactionary attitude that has been taken up with regard to these appointments by the local board of conservators. I want to ventilate that and to ask the Minister, if he has any control or power over these conservators, to see to it that in Irish-speaking districts it shall be a condition of these appointments that the persons appointed shall have a competent knowledge of Irish; that these appointments will be made through the Local Appointments Commission, and that, for responsible positions like that of an inspector and the secretary of a board of conservators, some qualifications shall be necessary and be provided for in the application forms.

Is the Deputy not going to say anything about Lough Foyle?

Mr. Brady

You ran away from Lough Foyle.

You fought two general elections on the issue.

There is just one point that I want to put to the Minister. I did not know until this afternoon that this Vote was to come on to-night. However, I could not let the opportunity pass without making some remarks on the question of fishing gear. I regret to say that there are many men in my constituency who are absolutely unemployed now as a result of the loss of fishing nets, particularly salmon nets. The Minister will remember that I have been in communication with him about this matter, but, unfortunately, nothing very much has been done and it is the cause of great hardship in Waterford. The Minister is probably aware that arrangements were made by the British Legion to get certain nets and material for the mending of nets across from England, but up to this nothing has been done from their end this year. The position is that they are confined to getting them for their own members. There are many others who are not members and I feel very much for them, because it seems as if they had no one to speak for them. I would ask the Minister to take a special note of it and, when replying, to hold out some hope to these men, because they are in a state of depression from what they have suffered in the past and what they are likely to suffer in the future. I am sure the Minister realises the necessity for this and I need not labour the point any further.

I should like to ask the Minister whether any progress has been made in connection with the erection of a purification tank so far as shell fish are concerned. I refer now to the mussel industry. There is one tank on the Kerry coast which has proved to be a great boon to the men engaged in the industry there and has enabled them to command a very high price for mussels in the British market. As the Minister is aware; owing to certain things which happened in England as a result of mussels that were exported from the east coast, there was a sort of ban put on, with the result that the livelihoods of those who were depending on the mussel industry were jeopardised. I would impress upon the Minister that, whenever circumstances permit, he should proceed with the erection of a purification tank at some convenient spot on the east coast which would cater for the mussel gatherers in Dundalk, Carlingford, Omeath, Mornington, etc.

In regard to the provision of gear for the fishermen, I think the Minister should see that all tariffs on the importation of twine, etc., essential for the making or repairing of nets are removed. Certain enterprising fishermen were able to secure a certain quantity of twine, only to find on its arrival at Dundalk that they were required to pay a tariff of 30 or 40 per cent. on it. That necessitated an application being made to the Department for a permit, which resulted in a delay of a fortnight or three weeks at a time when the fishing season was on. All these tariffs should be removed on small things like that so as to enable these men to get the things they want, no matter from what source, without the delay in respect of permits and so on.

As regards territorial waters, I do not set much store on them. Fish like to have freedom to travel through any part of the ocean. I was surprised at Deputy Healy talking about English trawlers coming in when we all read a few weeks ago about Galway men objecting to Donegal men fishing outside Galway. What is the use of talking about British or French trawlers? Is it not plain that we have not the enterprise to build boats big enough to go out in competition with these men? So far as I can see from some of the speeches made here and on former occasions, what some of our fishermen want is that the fish should come into them and that they should not have to go out for them at all. Talking about a few trawlers coming within three or four miles of the coast is displaying an inferiority complex. It is about time that Irishmen, who are so fond of pointing out what a great race we are, should live up to that and meet their competitors in every sphere. When I was working in England, I did not think that I was inferior to the men there. I think it is a joke to talk about our territorial waters when we have the example there of the Galway men, led by a few of the Galway T.D.'s, trying to prevent their fellow Irishmen from Donegal taking the fish that, possibly, they were too lazy to go out and catch. That is straight from the shoulder. That really happened.

There seems to be no encouragement given to the unfortunate angler, especially the working man, who has to pay £2 a year for a licence. He seems to get no chance. Whatever may be the reason, salmon trout is not found in our rivers in the quantities that were there years ago. I do not know what has happened to cause that state of affairs. It may be that there is lack of civic spirit in putting down poaching. It is almost impossible to get a conviction. We have to pay water bailiffs' salaries every year.

I would suggest to Deputy Brady that it would be more important to get these people to carry out their duty than to be talking about the few appointments that were made in Donegal and inquiring whether the appointees had a competent knowledge of Irish or not. I would ask him to inquire whether the persons who were recently appointed as judges had a competent knowledge of Irish. I would ask him to inquire whether persons appointed to all the other big jobs, that command big salaries, in this country, had a competent knowledge of Irish instead of talking about the few jobs in Donegal, involving a few pounds a year. Surely the board of conservators should have freedom in that respect. As a Deputy, I should be sorry to introduce a petty thing like that in this House, in regard to some poor fellow who was lucky enough to get a job. I certainly would not bring up the question as to whether or not he had a competent knowledge of Irish.

I should like to impress upon the Minister the desirability of doing something in regard to the poor fishermen who earn their living by salmon fishing, especially in these months. The season has already begun in some rivers. The Dundalk River, I believe, will not be opened up properly until the month of May or June and I know that most of these men's nets are in a very bad state owing to the fact that they were not in a position to renew or repair them during the last few years. I would ask the Minister to make it clear that no obstacles will be placed in the way of any fisherman who is lucky enough to be able to get the necessary quantity of twine to make new nets or to repair old ones.

For the past 21 or 22 years, in this House, we have heard stressed the importance of the fishing industry. Year after year the same complaints have been levelled against the Ministry and to-night during the debate on this Estimate the same complaints were made again. I think the Minister for Agriculture has sufficient to do in the Department of Agriculture.

The debate on the Estimate for Agriculture continued over a period of six days. More than half the number of Deputies in the House have taken part in that debate. The Minister was put to the pin of his collar, so to speak, to answer all the complaints and all the points that were dealt with on that Estimate. In my opinion, in view of all that has been said in regard to fishing and in view of the fact that it has been repeatedly stated that the fishing industry is second only to agriculture, the importance of the fishing industry would warrant the appointment of a separate Minister for Fisheries. I suggest that fishing has not been properly developed in this country. We used to hear, prior to the Treaty, prior to the establishment of our own Government, that the fishing industry was not developed and that one of the first things to which an Irish Government should set its hand was the development of that industry. I suggest that so long as one man is in charge of the two important Ministries, Agriculture and Fisheries, the fishing industry will not get the attention that its importance would warrant.

I notice that there is a reduction in the Estimate this year for the provision of boats and gear. I wonder is that because there is a lesser demand being made by fishermen or is it that the Department are not prepared to extend the facilities for the provision of gear and boats that were available in recent years? The question of nets has been mentioned by Deputy Coburn, and I think the Minister knows that a great many of the fishermen to-day are at their wits' ends to know where to get twine, ropes and netting. Because they have not been available in recent years, a great many fishermen who should normally be engaged in fishing on our rivers are at present unable to take part in that activity. I know that at the present time there are men on the River Slaney, in Wexford, who, in consequence of the fact that ropes, twine and nets are not available, will not be able to go on the river this year, seeking a livelihood by fishing.

I should like the Minister to tell us what provision has been made in regard to the provision of nets and ropes. I should like him to tell us if there is any possibility of the fishermen on the Slaney being permitted to fish earlier than the 1st April. I think some kind of promise was made to them within the last couple of years. These men complain bitterly that the River Slaney is one of the latest, if not the latest, river in the whole country. They complain that rod fishermen are fishing for months prior to the time they are permitted to do so and that that is very damaging to their interests.

With regard to the question of trawlers, Deputy Coburn suggested that we had an inferiority complex. I do not think that is the position at all. I do not think our fishermen have an inferiority complex but, unfortunately, the fishing industry has never been firmly established in this country to the same extent as it has been in other countries and in consequence the trawlers and fishing boats that our men have at their disposal are not sufficiently large to enable them to go into the waters of which these other people take advantage. I suppose it is not an easy thing to have our territorial waters patrolled during the period of the war but it would appear to me that absolute laxity prevails so far as protection for our fishermen is concerned.

I think it was Deputy Cosgrave who mentioned the question of harbours and the provision of piers for fishermen. I come from a county of which, I suppose, three-quarters touches the sea. In parts of the county, especially in the south, there is plenty of fish but because of the fact that the men have no facilities for landing the fish they are not in a position to derive any benefit from it. The Minister knows the county which he represents as well as I do and I think he will agree with me that it should be the duty of some Ministery to make these harbours navigable. Some effort should be made to erect piers or landing stages for fishermen.

With regard to the marketing of fish, I am prepared to admit that the Sea Fisheries Association have, to a great extent, benefited the fishermen in various parts of the country, but I suggest that that association is concerned only with conveying the fish from the sea coast to the big towns and cities. I come from the town of Wexford, and it is almost impossible to get fish there on a Friday. It would appear to me that all the fish landed in Wexford is brought inland or up to Dublin, or sent to England. It is a peculiar thing that, if one goes into a provincial town in the Midlands, it is nearly always possible to get fish, but in the seaport towns it is very hard to get it. That is an anomalous position which should be rectified.

A great many people are inclined to criticise the fishermen, but their job is a very dangerous and precarious one. Those of them who are engaged on a share basis get very little money. There is a big difference between what they get and the price that the people in the cities and towns are asked to pay when the fish is marketed. If the fishing industry is to be properly developed, something should be done to secure a decent livelihood for our fishermen. If the middlemen's profits were eliminated to some extent the fishermen would be able to get a better living, and there would not be such a great difference between the price charged for fish now and the price which would be necessary if those reforms were brought about. I would suggest to the Minister that the Sea Fisheries Association should see that there is a better system of distribution, so that fish will be available in the towns and villages throughout the country. I would also ask him to ensure that the fishermen get a better return from the dangerous work that they do.

I think it was Deputy Coburn who referred to the question of purification tanks for mussels. I think the Minister knows as well as I do that a great deal of mussels are caught around the coast of Wexford, and a large number of people would get a living from that industry if there were a purification tank in the area. I think the Minister should give consideration to that very important matter.

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney asked me a few questions which he prefaced by saying that he hoped I would not misrepresent him. I hope I will not do so. I did not mean to misrepresent anybody, either in this debate or in the last one. He asked me what attitude I would take on the Drainage Bill. There is a clause in the Drainage Bill which, I am sure, the Deputy has studied, and he must realise from that clause that where there is a fishery interest the Minister for Fisheries has what amounts to the last word. The Minister for Agriculture—who is also the Minister for Fisheries—naturally has to keep the drainage interests in mind. He must weigh up which is the more important in each individual case. It is quite possible that in one case he might decide that the fishery interest was a minor matter—that the drainage interest was more important. On the other hand, if the fishery interest were very important, and the drainage authority could get over the drainage difficulty by spending a little more in another way, he would see that the fishery interest was looked after. It is a matter of weighing up the pros and cons. I have no reason to doubt the figures given by the Deputy with regard to the employment given by inland fisheries at one time, but they are giving nothing like that now. I take it that, at the time when so much employment was given, the fish were caught by means of lines; now, on account of the weirs, there is not so much employment. The Deputy wonders why there is not more fish on the slabs in our towns. I think Deputy Dillon answered that question fairly well. I think there would be more fish there if there were merchants in the town who were energetic and anxious to have fish; they would get in touch with some organisation like the Sea Fisheries Association and fish would be made available.

Complaints have been made against the weirs. The only commission on inland fisheries that sat in recent years —I think it sat about 1934—would, strange to say, go further than we have ever gone in the way of weirs. In fact, they recommend that all the fish should be caught by means of a weir right across the water, so that there would be no further necessity for netting or anything else. They considered that that was the rational way to do it.

Deputy Corish raised a question about trawlers down in Rosslare. I think that, generally speaking, whatever Deputy Dillon or other Deputies think, the trouble from trawlers has been very little for some years past. There may have been isolated instances like this one in Rosslare. At the moment, we are having correspondence which will lead to discussion on this whole question of fishery limits, and I do not think I can say any more in regard to the matter at the moment.

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney asked about the 1939 Act. Of course, it has been put into operation in many respects with regard to protection and that kind of thing, but it has not been put into operation with regard to purchase of the ownership of fisheries in the estuaries and so on. I think that is a matter which had better be left over for the present, because those privately-owned fisheries have an inflated value at the moment owing to the emergency and the high price for fish, so I think it would not be advisable for the State to buy them out. On the whole, I think the purchase of those rights will have to be left over.

Does it not take ten years to acquire them?

It does.

Well, how does the Minister know what the price will be like ten years from now?

We are taking a chance. The price may be higher still for all we know.

Then you will never act?

We will have to act sometime. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney mentioned a rather interesting point about weavers and so on here in Dublin some hundreds of years ago putting in the indentures of their apprentices of the effect that they would not offer them salmon more than, say, twice a week. I do not know if that is so but I believe there is 2/6 waiting for the person who can prove it. Somebody has offered to pay 2/6 to anybody who can produce a copy of one of these indentures.

Will you give me the half-crown?

I can guarantee that the 2/6 will be paid if the Deputy can produce it.

I shall produce the indenture.

There was a question raised by Deputy Healy with regard to the transit of fish from Cahirciveen. My Department is doing everything possible through the Department of Industry and Commerce to bring about an improvement, but there are difficulties that are not so easily got over. In any case, I have not got the last word in the matter. If the fishermen in that area wanted any information with regard to the trade and the prices in Britain, it could be got easily from the Department of Fisheries. I do not think that Deputy Healy could complain that any letter he sent to the Department is not answered; in fact I do not think he could say that his letters were not promptly answered and there is no reason why he should not seek the information in that way if he desired. The British do not consult us when fixing prices for fish other than salmon. The buyer fixes the price which he is prepared to pay and the seller can either give or keep the fish. We are naturally anxious to improve matters——

Mr. Larkin

Could you not get some reports as to prices?

I could not say. We are anxious to help in these matters, but I just want to point out that we have not the last word. The buyer has the last word in this case.

Is the Minister aware that the British Government has recently reduced the price of mackerel exported from this country?

As I have already informed the Deputy, the British do not consult the Department here in regard to the fixing of prices. We hear about these reductions only after they have actually taken place. We may protest against them; sometimes we may succeed in our protest but we do not always succeed. I do not think that a reduction in the price of fish to the consumer would be a very popular step with the fish trade or fishermen in general. I agree with Deputy Larkin that, even if the price of fish were reduced, it would not induce some people to eat fish. It is a well-known fact that when people could have a table d'hôte dinner in which fish was included, they passed over the fish course. They would not take fish although they had not to pay anything extra. Even when herrings were very good value, when they could be bought at 3d., 4d. or 6d. a dozen, poor people were prepared to pay ? or 2/- sfor steak rather than buy herrings.

Were there not a good deal more herrings sold 20 years ago than now?

That is possible.

Mr. Larkin

It is all due to the system of distribution.

When herrings were sold at 3d. a dozen much more of them were sold at Marlborough Street corner. I know because I remember slipping on herring heads.

Deputy Dillon raised the question of trout hatcheries. It is not true, I think, that experts disagree about the distribution of fry and ova for the brown trout. A rather strange thing about the distribution of ova is that it is more a psychological help than anything else. I know that, in the distribution of ova for salmon, an association makes quite a lot of fuss about the amount of ova they get. Probably the amount would not be more than they would get from three of four salmon in a river or lake but the fact that they get these ova makes them more interested in the protection of the fisheries. For that reason the distribution of ova and fry for the brown trout is not being neglected.

A great deal more could be done.

I quite agree, and something more will be done as the years go on. Deputy Dillon raised the point also that it was impossible to get salmon through the Sea Fisheries Association. The association was started as a producers' organisation, to look after the financing, first of all, of the equipment of members and then to look after the marketing of their catches. None of their members is in the salmon business. They do not finance them in the salmon business because they cannot get a hire-purchase agreement for line and gear for salmon fishing as a salmon net is liable to be confiscated if there is a prosecution and, therefore, it is not regarded as good security. The association, therefore, do not deal with men in the salmon fishing business.

Surely if the association deems it expedient to go into the fish and chip business and set up shops for that purpose, they would not say that they could not sell chips because they did not deal in potatoes. They would get the potatoes from another company. Could they not get all the salmon they would require from some company in the salmon trade?

They have not gone into the fish and chip business.

But surely they could buy salmon?

They always regard the association as a producers' association and they have not looked to any other side of the business. It is quite possible that, on reconsideration, they would go more into the trading side and buy salmon from somebody else, but so far they have not done so. A point was raised by Deputy Bartley as to the possibility of spinning thread in this country from flax for the making of lines and trammel nets. Some progress has been made in that respect and I am glad to inform the Deputy that we may be able to announce the details shortly. I should like Deputies to understand, however, that so far nothing definite has emerged, and I do not want them to be too optimistic. The flax we grow in this country goes through the Ministry of Supplies and is exchanged for fibre of two kinds. There is binder twine, of which we get a certain amount, and the other variety.

Mr. Larkin

Why cannot you use flax fibre?

That is the question which is under consideration and it looks as if the results will be satisfactory. I should like Deputy Bartley to give me some particulars of the case he has in mind in which he stated that an official of the Sea Fisheries Association interfered with an election, because that should not happen. The whole question of the constitution of boards of conservators will come before the Dáil in the near future, that is to say within 12 months. The question of fishery legislation will arise under a consolidating Act and then the question of inland boards of conservators will be considered. At the same time the question referred to by Deputy Brian Brady can be raised, that is the question of the control by the Minister over appointments. At present the Minister has very little control. He does sanction an appointment made by a board of conservators, but he has no power, I am afraid, with regard to the qualifications. He has no power to refuse sanction unless he has very good reason, such as that the board had not made the appointment in accordance with the conditions set out in the advertisement or that it had made the appointment in some irregular manner.

The question of harbour improvements is a very big matter, although Deputy Cosgrave seemed to think it was not. At times the Department of Fisheries is intimately concerned with it. If the question of the improvement of a harbour arises, the Minister for Fisheries is asked if he has any observations to make and, if there are fishing boats likely to use the harbour, the Minister may recommend that certain improvements should be carried out but, of course, it is for the other Department to deal with these recommendations.

Do you recommend it?

Yes, wherever there is a fishery interest in it.

Did not the Minister say that the county council has to do it?

Sometimes the county council and sometimes the Board of Works.

Mr. Larkin

The Port and Docks Board has control around here.

Yes. Deputy Cosgrave asked for some figures. I shall send him the annual report on fisheries in which he will get the figures which he seeks. Deputy O'Donovan is anxious to get cured fish. We ourselves never went into that business. We cured herring and mackerel, but we did not go in for curing all the other fish which Deputy O'Donovan has in mind. I recommend Deputy O'Donovan to write to the Sea Fisheries Association, who may make some suggestions with regard to supplying him with fish every week, as they have done in other cases. The price of fish is a very big problem. We must bear in mind that fish is very perishable and that it is consumed on only one day in the week, so that the fisherman must earn his living on two or three days of the week in preparation for Friday. The fish shops do practically all their business on one day and they must carry a staff that will be sufficient for that.

None of them deals in fish exclusively.

Fish and poultry. In any event, they have to carry a staff which is rather large for other days of the week than Friday. Deputy Larkin referred to wages. Fishermen in this country do not receive wages. They get a share in the trawler and the boats of the Sea Fisheries Association. Sometimes, that share is small and, sometimes, it is large. In recent years, it has been very good.

Mr. Larkin

They do get wages on the trawlers. They have fixed wages plus——

A share. With regard to the reference to purification tanks, we are anxious to wait until we see how the Cromane plant gets on. We want to see the returns from that tank before we set about building another tank. We should be largely influenced with regard to the size of another tank by our experience there. If things go well—and things have gone well in Cromane; there has been a remarkable increase in the amount of mussels passing through that tank—we shall build another tank on the east coast.

Mr. Larkin

You are going to miss the tide.

The tide will come in again. Deputy Mrs. Redmond referred to fishing gear, particularly salmon nets. It is difficult to get nets. We succeeded in getting twine for the mending of nets. We are doing everything possible in that way and we shall continue to do that. I am aware that the British Legion in Lismore got some nets last year. They did that of their own initiative, and I am not sure whether they got any this year or not. Deputy Coburn mentioned the question of a tariff on twine coming in for nets. That impost is, invariably, remitted on my recommendation and, if anybody applies to me in connection with it, I shall attend to the matter. Deputy Corish referred to the time for fishing on the River Slaney. Under the fishery code, any change in the season for fishing must be preceded by a public inquiry, properly advertised. As a result of that inquiry, it must be reported to me that the fishery, as a whole would be improved by the change which is recommended. No change was recommended as a result of the last inquiry or the inquiry before that.

How long ago was that?

1938. If the fishermen make the case that there has been a change in the situation since then, we can hold another inquiry. That is all that can be done under the present law.

Mr. Larkin

Will the Minister make clear that, if any person can bring in twine or coir for the mending of nets, he will have the restriction on its import removed?

If anybody writes to me and says that he is able to get twine, I shall see that no obstacle is placed in his way.

Vote put and agreed to.

The next business is the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Justice.

The Government have done very well to-night. Will the Minister move the adjournment and let us go home?

We want to get finished with the Estimates before Christmas.

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