Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Apr 1944

Vol. 93 No. 7

Nomination of Comptroller and Auditor-General.

An Taoiseach

Tairgim go ndéantar Seán O Meachair, atá ina Rúnaí agus ina Stiúrthóir Iniúchóireachta in Oifig an Árd-Reachtaire Cunntas agus Ciste fé láthair, d'ainmniú chun a cheaptha ag an Uachtarán ina Ard-Reachtaire Cunntas agus Ciste.

Fé mar atá fógartha don Dáil ag an gCeann Comhairle, chuir Seoirse Mag Craith in iúl gur mhian leis éirghe as a oifig mar Ard-Reachtaire Cunntas agus Ciste go n-éifeacht ón seachtú lá déag den mhí seo agus tá an tUachtarán tar éis aontú leis sin ar chomhairle an Rialtais. Tá obair mhaith déanta ag Seoirse Mag Craith ar son na tíre, le breis is trí bliana fichead anuas, i gcúrsaí cuntasóireachta Stáit. Do céad-cheapadh é Mí Deire Fómhair, míle naoi gcéad agus fiche, ina Árd-Chunntasóir do Dháil Éireann. Ar Acht an Ard-Scrúdóra do rith i dtosach na bliana míle naoi gcéad a trí is fiche, do ceapadh é ina Ard-Scrúdóir an dara lá déag d'Eanar an bhliain sin. An tArd-Reachtaire Cunntas agus Ciste a tugtar mar theideal ar an bpost anois fén mBunreacht. Tá árd-mholadh tuillte ag Seoirse Mag Craith i dtaobh an chuma inar stiúruigh sé gnó na hoifige táchtaí sin nuair a bhí taithí á fáil air i dtosach. Táim cinnte go mbeidh an Dáil ar fad ar aon aigne liom á ghuí go mbeidh blianta fada sonais agus suainis aige, d'éis scur dó de chúram a oifige.

Fé mar adubhart is táchtach an oifig í, oifig an Árd-Reachtaire Cunntas agus Ciste. Chun é sin a theasbáint, ní gá ach bréithre an Bhunreachta d'aithris, gurab é dualgas an Árd-Reachtaire "gach caitheamh airgid do rialú thar ceann an Stáit, agus iniúchadh do dhéanamh ar gach uile chunntas ar airgead a riartar ag an Oireachtas nó fá údarás an Oireachtais" agus "tuarascála do chur ós cóir Dháil Éireann ar thrátha áirithe mar cinnfear le dlí". Níor bhfoláir cuimhneamh ar a tháchtaí atá an oifig agus an scéal do bhreithniú go cúramach nuair a bhí moladh á cheapadh le hainm comharba Sheoirse Mhag Chraith do chur ós cóir na Dála. An fear atá á mholadh agam don Dáil, Seán Ó Meachair, táim lán-tsásta go bhfuil sé oiriúnach don phost i ngach slí. Do ceapadh é chun an phuist atá aige fé láthair, mar Rúnaí agus Stiúrthóir Iniúchóireachta, breis agus bliain is fiche ó shoin. Tá sé ag obair ó shoin i leith in oifig an Ard-Scrúdóra, nó an Ard-Reachtaire, agus tá eolas cruinn fairsing aige ar dhualgaisí na hoifige. Tá árd-chlú tuillte aige i dtaobh inniúlachta agus dúthrachta. Molaim don Dáil é ainmniú chun a cheaptha ina Ard-Reachtaire Cunntas agus Ciste.

As I have said, some time ago the Ard-Reachtaire Cunntas agus Ciste, the Comptroller and Auditor-General, Seoirse Mag Craith, informed us that he desired to retire from office. On the advice of the Government, the President agreed to accept his resignation. Consequently we have to fill that office to-day. Mr. McGrath was first chosen as Accountant General of Dáil Eireann in 1920. Later when the Act of 1923 was passed, he was chosen as Ard-Sgrúdóir. In the new Constitution the title has been changed to that of Comptroller and Auditor-General. During all that period, he fulfilled what everybody knows is a responsible office, with ability and with the utmost attention to his duties. I think the whole Dáil will join with me in wishing him many well-earned years of rest and comfort, now that he has retired from the office. The post, as I have said, is a most responsible one. To judge of its importance, one has only to look at Article 33 of the Constitution which defines the duties and the functions of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. It is an office which is not a Civil Service post at all. The Comptroller and Auditor-General is an officer of this House. To give him the independence which is necessary, his tenure of office is comparable to that of a judge. He can be removed only for stated reasons on a resolution being passed by both Houses.

The duties of the office are mainly twofold as the title indicates. The first is to control issues from the Exchequer—those Charged on the Central Fund according to the Central Fund Acts and issues for the Supply Services in accordance with the Appropriation Acts. The Comptroller and Auditor-General also has to audit the Exchequer accounts and the accounts of the various accounting officers. The person appointed to the post must be a man of sound judgment, who understands what the intentions of the Oireachtas are with regard to Parliamentary control of the purse, who knows the functioning of the various Departments and who has a proper understanding of the work of these Departments so as to be able to judge in any particular instance whether moneys are being applied in accordance with the intentions of Parliament. It is not necessary by any means that he should have been trained in the Civil Service. In fact, from one point of view, it might be said that the type of officer required is one who understands the public working of the democratic machine, so to speak, but, although he need not necessarily be a civil servant, there is no reason if the most suitable person is to be found within the civil service, why such a person should not be chosen.

In this case we have a man who has been in the office of the Comptroller and Auditor-General for a period of 21 years and who whilst in that office has proved himself to be just the type of person that is required. He certainly understands the functioning of Parliament and the principles that govern control of the public purse by Parliament. He has a detailed knowledge of the working of Departments which, in fact, makes him an ideal choice. I have, considering that this is a Dáil appointment, taken the precaution to speak to the Leaders of other Parties about this appointment and I think that in proposing Mr. Maher, who is at present the Secretary and Director of Audit in the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, I am making a proposal which will meet with general agreement. A number of members of the Dáil have had experience of his work on the Public Accounts Committee. I have spoken to some who were formerly in that position and every one of them has been, I might say, loud in his praise of the ability and the care which Mr. Maher exercised in his work. I think, therefore, we are fortunate in having such a person to succeed so able a man as Mr. George MacGrath proved himself to be. I have great pleasure, therefore, in proposing that we nominate Mr. Maher for appointment by the President to the post of Comptroller and Auditor-General.

Mr. Lynch

I should like to join with the Taoiseach in the tribute he has paid to Mr. George MacGrath, out-going Comptroller and Auditor-General. He was admittedly an able and very painstaking official. He has served this State well during its formative years. He took over the supervision of the expenditure of the various Departments of State at the time when the State was formed, at a time when we were all a great deal younger and perhaps very raw in matters of public finance. His guidance was of extreme help to members of the Dáil who had to serve on the Public Accounts Committee, and the State is the loser by his retirement now under the age limit. I join also with the Taoiseach in wishing him very many years of happiness and health in his retirement.

I second the proposal of the Taoiseach that Mr. Maher, who has been Mr. MacGrath's very able assistant during the past 21 years, should be appointed as Comptroller and Auditor-General. He is sufficiently well-known to various members of the House without any eulogies from me. I think the House can be assured that in appointing Mr. Maher we shall have the services of as good and able a man as we have had for the past 21 years.

Mr. Norton

I should like to associate this Party with the tribute which the Taoiseach has rightly and very eloquently paid to Mr. George McGrath on his retirement from the service of this House. Those who know Mr. McGrath are aware of the fact that he served this State and particularly this House, with ability and outstanding energy. He was courteous in all his relations with members of the House, and in all his financial and Parliamentary transactions he revealed a very high standard of public rectitude. The House has lost a very efficient servant, has lost one who served it faithfully in its infancy and in its adolescent years and each and every member of the House, as well as those who were previously members and who are not here at present, will extend to Mr. McGrath their very best wishes for happiness in his retirement.

On behalf of the Labour Party, I want to say that they are not prepared to support the motion. I think that that information has already been conveyed to the Taoiseach by representatives of this Party. We think that the circumstances surrounding the motion are rather unusual in more ways than one. This is not a normal Civil Service appointment. The House is being asked to appoint a person as Comptroller and Auditor-General—one who will safeguard the interests of the House and the rights which the House has under the Constitution. So far as we know, no steps whatever have been taken to test the suitability of candidates other than the candidate proposed for the post by the Taoiseach— a post which we regard as a Parliamentary post and the occupant of which occupies a semi-judicial position. I do not want to make the slightest reflection on the character of Mr. Maher. I want at this stage to disclaim any possible intention of saying anything which would reflect on his integrity in the slightest. In fact, I do not happen to know the gentleman personally and any statement which I make will not, therefore, be based upon any personal knowledge of him.

I understand that Mr. Maher was requested some time ago to attend before the tribunal which is inquiring into dealings in railway shares. I understand that Mr. Maher attended before the tribunal and gave evidence. So far as the evidence was available to the public, it indicated that Mr. Maher was engaged in large-scale transactions in railway shares during the period of investigation by the tribunal. These transactions may have been of the most correct character. There may not be the slightest justification of any kind for alleging even the remotest malpractice against Mr. Maher, but we have no report whatever from this tribunal, so far. We have no official intimation from the tribunal as to what its viewpoint is in respect of that matter. Sufficient evidence has already been tendered to the tribunal—and a certain event took place before the actual sitting of the tribunal—to indicate that there were substantial grounds for the inquiry so far as, at least, one person in the Civil Service was concerned.

We think—and this view has already been conveyed to the Taoiseach—that if the Government desire to appoint Mr. Maher to this post, if he appears to be their special nominee, they ought, at least, to have waited until such time as the House had an opportunity of reading the report of the tribunal and of ascertaining the tribunal's viewpoint on the large-scale railway transactions with which Mr. Maher admitted he was concerned.

As I have said, I make no accusation whatever against the character or conduct of Mr. Maher. He himself tendered the evidence at the request of the tribunal and the Government thought it sufficiently important to have transactions of that kind tested before the tribunal. We have no knowledge of what the tribunal's viewpoint on the matter is. In the view of this Party—and this has already been conveyed to the Taoiseach through his Parliamentary Secretary—the Government ought not to proceed with this appointment, if Mr. Maher is their special choice, until such time as the report of the tribunal is available. I think that, when Mr. McGrath was appointed in 1923, there was some consultation, through the medium of a committee representative of all Parties in the House, with a view to the selection of a suitable person for the post. On this occasion, the Taoiseach might very well have set up a special committee of the House to invite, receive, and consider applications for the position, so that the House would feel satisfied that the person recommended would enjoy its full confidence and that the right of the House to safeguard its own privileges and prerogatives would be in no way impaired. Even at this stage, I think that the Taoiseach might well withdraw the proposal or defer further consideration of the matter until a committee representative of all Parties shall have had an opportunity of considering the matter and making a recommendation accordingly.

Mr. Donnellan

Sometimes it is a big advantage in this House to be neutral and sometimes it is a great disadvantage. As regards the retirement of Mr. McGrath, I was delighted to hear from all sides of the House such praise of the ex-Comptroller and Auditor-General. When the different Parties in this House unite in praising a man, he must be deserving of that praise. Our Party, as a new Party, knew very little about Mr. McGrath. I do not think that a single member of our Party knew the gentleman personally but he must be a genius when he deserved the praise bestowed on him to-day by all Parties. We join with the other Parties in wishing Mr. McGrath many happy days in his retirement.

As regards the appointment of Mr. Maher, I happen to be one of those called into consultation by the Taoiseach in connection with the suggested appointment to this office of Mr. Maher. The Taoiseach made the case for the appointment of Mr. Maher—not that he wanted it personally. As he said himself, he did not know the man. The only slight objection we felt was that this man was a civil servant. The Taoiseach explained that it was not because he was a civil servant he suggested his appointment, but simply because he was the best man that could be got at the moment for the position. He made that very plain. It would be well if we could get a man outside the Civil Service for the post, but the Taoiseach explained that we could not get a more suitable man or one who knows the job as well as he does. On that account, we decided to agree to this appointment, and we notified the Taoiseach to that effect. No member of our Party knows this man any more than the Taoiseach does. Weighing the matter up, I think that the Government and members of the Fine Gael Party, who have long experience in this House, would hardly agree to an appointment of this description without being fully satisfied that the man proposed to be appointed is an honourable and capable person. In addition, he has experience, which must count for a great deal. We agree to the appointment of Mr. Maher.

Mr. Dillon

Having been chairman of the Public Accounts Committee for a great many years—I do not know, at the moment, how many—it behoves me to say something on this occasion. I welcome the opportunity of associating myself with the Taoiseach, the Leader of the Opposition, and other Deputies who have spoken in their praise of Mr. McGrath and in their appreciation of the admirable work he did for this House and the country during the 21 years he so adequately filled the responsible post of Comptroller and Auditor-General. I gladly associate myself with the warm good wishes of the other speakers, that Mr. McGrath may have many happy years in which to enjoy his well-deserved leisure.

Now we come to the case of the appointment of his successor. I am very glad to observe that the Leader of the Opposition and other Party leaders in this House have made it quite clear that their views must be very carefully considered in determining the recommendation that we have before us to-day in connection with this appointment, because it cannot be too strongly emphasised that the position of Comptroller and Auditor-General, so far as this State is concerned, is that of a servant of this House, and not of the Government: that, in fact, his duty is to watch the Executive and to see that any moneys voted by the Oireachtas are spent in accordance with what has been decided in the Oireachtas. It is the duty of the Comptroller and Auditor-General to see that moneys voted by the Oireachtas are spent for the purpose for which they were voted, and that the rules laid down here are faithfully carried out in accordance with the law.

The tenure of office of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is somewhat analogous to that of a judge, because he must be strengthened in his position in case there might arise an occasion when he found himself in what might appear to be opposition to the Government of the day. The person to fill such an office must be placed in such a position that he will be independent of whatever Government may be in power; so that, even where he finds himself in opposition to the Executive it will still be his duty to see that the moneys voted by the Oireachtas are spent in a proper way for the carrying out of the various Acts passed by the Oireachtas.

In this connection I should like to say that I have been connected with the Public Accounts Committee for some years now. I have been chairman of that committee for the last three or four years, and Mr. McGrath, the former Comptroller and Auditor-General, on divers occasions, delegated his duty to Mr. Maher—the gentleman whose name is before us in this motion to-day. It would have been exceedingly difficult for the Committee of Public Accounts—a committee representing members of all Parties in this House—to perform its duties efficiently without the assistance that was given to us by Mr. Maher. It would have been practically impossible for that committee to do its duty efficiently, were it not for the work of Mr. Maher, both from the point of view of clarifying the various matters that came before the committee for consideration, and also the putting of all these matters into suitable shape for the annual report. I must say that the vast experience and great ability of Mr. Maher were unfailingly at the disposal of that committee, and I am sure that the members of the committee will bear me out on that.

Furthermore, speaking as one who has had to observe these matters for some considerable time, it appeared to me that within the scope of his authority, under Mr. McGrath, as Comptroller and Auditor-General, Mr. Maher had established, with the accounting officers of the various Departments which were concerned, the most desirable relationships, as a result of which the people concerned felt that any queries addressed to them, or any objections, in the Department in which Mr. Maher had been principal clerk, were bound to be well-founded and worthy of respectful attention. Mr. Maher, in the position he occupied heretofore, secured the confidence and respect of all the members of the Civil Service of this State, and I think that that is a great tribute to a man whose task, after all, is one of inquisition into the affairs of the men with whom he has to deal.

The Leader of the Labour Party to-day raised a matter which, I think, should not have been raised in connection with this appointment. The Taoiseach made it plain, in his opening statement, that although the Comptroller and Auditor-General is appointed by this House, and that, in one sense, the office might seem to be above the Government, that does not mean that the position cannot be ended at any moment. If, for instance, the Comptroller and Auditor-General had engaged in Stock Exchange or other similar transactions, involving serious impropriety, then, doubtless, the Dáil would take steps to see that such a man would no longer be left in that position; but let us not say that because a public servant goes into open court and says that he has made certain investments, or taken part in certain Stock Exchange transactions, he is therefore at fault. He is a public servant; he goes before a court, makes no concealment with regard to any transactions that he has had on the Stock Exchange; he points out that he has nothing to conceal with regard to past transactions, and would have nothing to conceal with regard to any future transactions that he may have. Now, let it not be taken as a quasi-conviction that Mr. Maher's name appeared in the newspapers in connection with a certain case. I think I can say, as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee for some years now, that those who have worked with Mr. Maher know that to suggest that he would indulge in any wrong transactions, or that his integrity would be involved in any personal transactions he may have had, is grotesque and ludicrous.

I would not dream of adverting to that matter except for what has been suggested by the Leader of the Labour Party. I, personally, am prepared to vouch for the honour and integrity of Mr. John Maher, but I think we need not go into that now. It is not necessary to go into it, since no charge has been made. It is true, of course, that Mr. Maher appeared before the recent commission in connection with certain Stock Exchange transactions and, doubtless, when the report of that commission comes through, we will know more than we do now. If anything should transpire, as a result of the findings of that commission, which might impugn the honour of Mr. Maher, then this House will have an opportunity of dealing with it but, in the meantime, his honour stands unassailed by anyone; and so far as those who know him are concerned, his honour and integrity can be vouched for by a legion of men, who know that his reputation will stand any test of integrity and ability that can be put— and I am referring to people who are competent to understand and to judge of such matters.

Accordingly, I gladly support the motion of the Taoiseach. I have no doubt that it was in the Taoiseach's mind that Mr. Maher had given evidence before the Tribunal, and I am very glad that the Taoiseach put that matter out of his mind and only took into consideration the ability and the integrity of the man concerned. We all realise that if anything should transpire, which might be adverse to Mr. Maher, as a result of the findings of that tribunal, then it will be a matter for this Dáil; but to anticipate the findings of the tribunal—a thing which neither the Taoiseach nor any member of this House would be willing or capable of—is a very different matter.

I think that this is the first occasion on which this House has been asked to go through the process of considering a nomination for this office. The Leader of Clann na Talmhan said that he would prefer that somebody outside the Civil Service should be appointed to this post, and it was not until afterwards that he assented to the present nomination. The idea seems to be that the person to be appointed to such a post as that of Comptroller and Auditor-General should be a businessman, or at least a person with outside experience, instead of a civil servant: in other words, that some accountant, or businessman should be brought in to supervise the Civil Service, so to speak. In that connection, speaking as one who has had a long experience of the Committee of Public Accounts— and I am sure, nobody will accuse me of being fond of bureaucrats—still, I believe in getting things done, and in seeing that the money voted by the Oireachtas is devoted to the purpose for which it was voted, the best person to perform that function is the man now proposed for the position of Comptroller and Auditor-General. After all, the function of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is to see that the money voted by Dáil Eireann is spent in the way Dáil Eireann wants it to be spent. That is the function of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. If you bring in an outside accountant or businessman, and set him the day-to-day task of supervising how the money voted by Dáil Eireann will be spent, he will be as helpless as a new born babe.

Nobody who is not intimately conversant with all the details of finance regulation and finance procedure is competent to supervise State Department expenditure, and, therefore, I recommend to the House that if the duty should ever be cast upon it again to consider a recommendation of the kind we are here considering—and if we carry this resolution to-day, I hope it will not be cast upon us for very many years—to accept the view that the right type of person for the post of Comptroller and Auditor-General is a high Treasury official or a member of the out-going Comptroller and Auditor-General's staff. Only a person with that highly specialised type of knowledge can effectively discharge the duties of the office; only a person who knows finance inside out can do the work we want done. It was never truer to say that only a poacher turned keeper can do the job which we require the Comptroller and Auditor-General to do. We of Dáil Eireann want someone constantly on guard to ensure that by no twisting of the words of a resolution passed in this House and by no interpretation of a statute made by the Oireachtas will public money be spent in a way in which Dáil Eireann did not intend it to be spent. Only such a person as I here describe has the knowledge and the competence authoritatively to object to certain expenditure on the ground that it does not come within the limits laid down by Dáil Eireann.

The last thing I want to say—and this is immensely important from the point of view of the Executive—is this: the office of Comptroller and Auditor-General could be used in a way calculated to create grave abuse. If you get into that office, holding by judicial tenure, somebody who does not understand the words "a matter of account", you may set up an independent establishment which will make the life of any Government impossible in this country, because if the Comptroller and Auditor-General is to arrogate to himself the right to determine, not whether money has been spent in accordance with the instructions of Dáil Eireann, but whether money is being spent wisely or not, chaos could break out in the public service, and one of the constant duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is to hold up the hand of the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, whose terms of reference are also limited to matters of account, when individual Deputies, in an excess of ardour, are trying to initiate-debates at the Committee of Public Accounts on questions which ought to be debated on the floor of Dáil Eireann. Unless the Comptroller and Auditor-General were a man who saw as clearly as crystal the strict limit of his terms of reference, you might have every action of the Government held up and hamstrung in the Comptroller and Auditor-General's office and again seriously hampered and improperly challenged in the Committee of Public Accounts.

For these reasons, I wish to emphasise to the House that not only are the personal qualities of Mr. Maher a strong recommendation for the proposal made by the Taoiseach here to-day, but his long experience of the kind of work he will be called upon to do in future justifies the proposal the Taoiseach has put forward, and I urge the House on this occasion deliberately to choose a man who has been in the Civil Service and to resolve that hereafter they will look to the same source of supply for successors for the extremely important office which they are called upon to consider at present.

Mr. Davin

I served on the Public Accounts Committee 15, 16 and 17 years ago and I acted at chairman of that committee, I think, during the year in which the present Government Party came into the House for the first time. I have very happy recollections of my work on that committee during the period of my chairmanship and I remember the courageous and dignified way in which Mr. George McGrath saw fit to challenge the viewpoint of the Ministry on a very important matter of public policy during that year. He persuaded the majority of the Public Accounts Committee to take his view. I mention that because I admired the man, the strong man that he was, for having the courage to tackle the Ministry and to take a different viewpoint from that which the Minister for Finance at that period took of his responsibilities in regard to the administration of a certain Act. As a member who served during that period, and particularly as chairman, I can heartily join in the well-deserved tribute which the Taoiseach has paid to Mr. George McGrath, and in all that the Taoiseach and other members have said about the high qualities of the man who is now proposed as his successor.

The Taoiseach has correctly stated that he interviewed the representatives of the different Parties. In the absence of Deputy Norton, due to illness, on the particular evening, I met the Taoiseach. He was accompanied by the Minister for Finance and the Secretary to the Government and I was accompanied by my colleague, the Lord Mayor of Dublin. The Taoiseach told us exactly what we had been summoned for and he gave us his views, which in effect were what he has stated here this evening, regarding the qualifications of the person to be called on to fill this responsible high office. He asked us to convey our views to him, having heard what he had stated, in the hearing of the Minister for Finance, and on the following day, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, Deputy Kissane, asked me if I were in a position to give an answer. I was not in a position to give an answer in the early evening. I summoned all my available colleagues to Room 93 and, with my colleagues, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, gave them the gist of the interview we had had with the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance.

About 9.30 that night, in Room 96, with the Lord Mayor present, I gave the unanimous viewpoint of our Party to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach. I stated that we strongly urged the appointment of a non-civil servant to one of the very few high offices of a semi-judicial nature which was about to be filled. I informed him that we had no name to put forward, and did not intend to put forward any name, and I think I stated that at the interview with the Taoiseach. I also said, in conclusion, that if the Government decided to put forward Mr. Maher, as the person best fitted to fill this very high office, we would very strongly urge the Government not to put forward that proposal until the report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Great Southern Railways Stocks and Shares dealings had been received by them. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach ought to be in a position to confirm that statement. I dare say he conveyed that information to the Taoiseach. In due course, I was informed by the Parliamentary Secretary that the Taoiseach was not available that night, and I now remember that it was the occasion on which he was present at a lecture at the Ard-Chraobh of the Gaelic League.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. Kissane)

I recollect the occasion on which I met Deputy Davin and Deputy O'Sullivan, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, after they had considered the question of the appointment of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. My recollection is that the viewpoint put forward to me by Deputy Davin and Deputy O'Sullivan was that they would prefer that a man from outside the Civil Service should be appointed to this post, but that if the Taoiseach saw fit to put forward the name of Mr. Maher, they would raise no objection. That is my recollection of what happened on that occasion.

Mr. Davin

I realised that my position was so serious that I had the secretary of the Party present. He took a minute of the conversations, and that minute was in my hand when I was speaking to the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Kissane

There was no one present but Deputy Davin, Deputy O'Sullivan and myself.

Mr. Davin

In Room 96—yes.

Mr. Kissane

That should be clearly understood. I came away with the point of view they had given me. I also put it down in writing. I took the statement after the interview, and presented it to the Taoiseach, and he has laid it before the House.

Mr. Davin

Is it not correct to say that when you entered Room 93 we were concluding and we adjourned to Room 96 with you?

Mr. Kissane

I went to Room 93 at the appointed time and when I arrived I found that the Labour Party was in session. I then went to the other room. Deputy Davin and Deputy O'Sullivan followed me out and made the statement that I have given to the House.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

I should like to correct the final sentence of the Parliamentary Secretary's statement. What Deputy Davin said about Room 93 was quite correct, that was, that the ascertained point of view of the Labour Party was that they would prefer to see an appointment of this particular character given to an individual outside the Civil Service. That is where we differ with the view of Deputy Kissane, that if the Government should proceed with the nomination of the gentleman whose name is before the House, in our view that was considered imprudent before the report of the tribunal before which that gentleman appeared was available.

The Taoiseach

I was surprised when I found that the Labour Party were not prepared to support this motion, because I thought we were in the happy position that all Parties were agreed that, in the circumstances, and looking over the field, the best person available was Mr. Maher, whose name I proposed. It is true that in giving consideration to these things what comes before our minds is the quality and the type of person for this post. I must say that personally I was inclined at the outset rather to favour the appointment of a person other than a civil servant, on the general ground that he was to be an officer of the Dáil, and that his qualifications for the most part should be that he thoroughly understood Parliamentary procedure, particularly the power of the purse and the duties of an executive. It would be an extra qualification that he should be an accountant and understood accountancy. That seemed to be pretty clear. I should imagine that the most important thing was a knowledge of Parliamentary procedure, and of the whole accountancy system as far as essential control of the purse by Parliament is concerned. When I was thinking of it, for example, it occurred to me that, in general, persons who might have held the office of Ceann Comhairle or Minister for Finance or the chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee would be suitable rather than a member of the Civil Service, such as an official of the Department of Finance. My mind ranged over that type of person in thinking of the type of individual to be considered.

As I went into it more closely and examined it in more detail, I came to the conclusion that it was not without reason that in other countries where appointments of this sort were made, they have almost, if not exclusively, been made from the Treasury Department. When I asked why that was so, that set me into further examination, and ultimately I came to the conclusion that this post should not, except in exceptional circumstances, go to a person other than a civil servant, for instance, a civil servant in the Department of Finance, or a civil servant under the control of the Comptroller and Auditor-General; that perhaps the whole principle should be the other way.

Although this is the first time that a discussion of this sort has taken place, I do not think it would be wise for us to lay down any hard and fast rule. Every Dáil can consider a matter of this sort as a sovereign authority, and can take what action it considers best. In this case we have a man thoroughly acquainted with the work of the office, who, as far as I know, has given satisfaction to all concerned, both to the representatives of the Dáil and the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, and with whom, as Deputy Dillon has stated, there was very close collaboration in the work of examining the public accounts. From the Civil Service side he has been in a very difficult position, that of examining the accounts of the various Departments. Mr. Maher is a man who has been able to do his work, and admittedly has done so fearlessly, and without any clogging of the machine. Therefore, I have no doubt in coming to the conclusion that in proposing Mr. Maher for the vacancy I am proposing the best man we could see anywhere for this post. It is unfortunate that the matter of his being a witness before the tribunal should have occurred. I am quite frank with the House when I say that, although my attitude is that which Deputy Dillon indicated as the correct attitude, nevertheless, I realise that there are people who will not distinguish between a person who gives evidence and a person charged—there has been no suggestion of a charge——

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

The Taoiseach

—— against Mr. Maher. He was asked to give evidence before the tribunal. It is true, as Deputy Norton stated, that in his evidence there were certain transactions mentioned, but are we to take up the position that persons who give evidence before a tribunal, or who may have had Stock Exchange transactions during the period, are to be regarded as being guilty, and that only when they are proved, so to speak, not guilty, are we to acknowledge their innocence?

I assumed quite the contrary. One of the objections I had to the setting up of this tribunal at all was that people would do just this wrong thing. I only agreed to the setting up of this tribunal when it was demanded by an authoritative body, namely, the main Opposition Party. If it had been simply a suggestion by an individual member of the House, I would have scouted the idea of setting up the tribunal, because the public would take wrong views in a matter of that sort. Deputy Dillon has pointed out that, if we should find there was something improper, we could take action.

We are not responsible for choosing this particular time to make the appointment—it occurred by the fact that Mr. McGrath intimated that he wished to retire at this time. This is the beginning of a new financial year and a new Public Accounts Committee is about to be formed to examine the accounts for a previous financial year, and it is desirable that we should have as Comptroller and Auditor-General, when that committee meets, a man who will be with the committee until its report is issued. Therefore, the time was not of our choosing.

If we were choosing the time, we would probably choose another time, because of the wrong ideas that might possibly get abroad, such as those indicated by the Leader of the Labour Party. As we had nothing to do with the choosing of the time, I think that, apart from the inconvenience, if we postponed a decision there would be some suggestion that we share that sort of wrong view—namely, that because a person gives evidence of transactions before a tribunal he has done something improper or wrong. I do not think it would be right of us to act in that way.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I want to assure the House that I regard this as a most important appointment. It is an appointment on the nomination of Dáil Éireann, not on the advice of the Government. On that account, I am proposing it, rather than anybody else, because I happen to be occupying this seat at the moment, so to speak, as Leader of the House. I felt that there would not be any difficulty about it. Although there might have been certain differences of viewpoint at the start—such as I had myself—in the long run I thought every Party practically would come on the same side as myself—in other words, that in this set of circumstances there was one man standing out for appointment and we could be practically unanimous about it.

I have given this a great deal of thought and care. I have spoken to the members of other Parties about it. I hope that, perhaps, the Labour Party might reconsider their view on the matter, as I had hoped that this would be an unanimous appointment.

Motion put and agreed to.