Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Oct 1944

Vol. 95 No. 2

Private Deputies' Business. - Diseases of Animals Bill, 1944— Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This is an amending Bill, and consequently I cannot deal with what I might call the principles. I can only take it section by section to see what are the amendments which are proposed in this Bill. The diseases of animals legislation started in 1894, and the Principal Act is referred to in many cases. First of all, Section 5 and 6 of the Principal Act deal with a disease called cattle plague, which has not been known in this country for many years now, and Section 8 and 9 deal with pleuro-pneumonia and foot-and-mouth disease. Section 2 of this Bill will have the effect of abolishing those sections altogether, and having all the diseases dealt with under Section 10 of the Principal Act. Section 10 is of wider application and it gives the central authority more power than does any of the other sections I mentioned, that is Sections 5, 6, 8 and 9. It is proposed, therefore, to have all the diseases, cattle plague, pleuro-pneumonia and foot-and-mouth disease, dealt with under Section 10 the same as the other diseases. That is the effect of Section 2 of this Bill. Sub-section (2) of Section 2 provides that the certificate of a veterinary surgeon that the disease exists is conclusive evidence of the disease. In other words, it is not necessary that the veterinary surgeon should be examined on the subject if he has presented his certificate.

Section 3 of this Bill deals with the matter of compensation. Under the present legislation, compensation can be paid only where the animal is slaughtered as suffering from the disease, but it sometimes happens that, where an order is given, after examination, to have the cattle slaughtered, some of them die before the slaughter can take place. Strictly speaking, compensation cannot be paid in such cases, although in fact we did pay compensation in the last outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease, even though it was not strictly legal. Nobody questioned it, of course, I need hardly say. There are four sub-sections in Section 3, but they all deal with that same point. Sub-section (1) deals with cases of cattle plague. Sub-section (2) deals with cases of pleuro-pneumonia. Sub-section (3) deals with foot-and-mouth disease, and sub-section (4) with swine fever, but they all have the same effect, that is to say that, where an animal has been ordered to be slaughtered, and where it dies before there is time to slaughter it, compensation can be paid.

Section 4 deals with a penalty, that is the penalty of withholding payments where it is considered that the owner was at fault in any way. As the law stands, payments can be withheld only in respect of animals slaughtered. To bring this Bill up to date, as it were, paragraph (a) includes compensation payable under sub-section (3), that is, where the compensation is payable, even though the beast died before there was time to slaughter it, payments can be withheld. In paragraph (b), where animals are moved, say, to another district, and where they have come out of an infected district and it is thought advisable to slaughter them lest they might spread the disease in the new district, payment may be withheld as a penalty. Paragraph (c) deals with a case where animals are slaughtered because of the movement of say, hay or straw from an infected district into a clean district, or where, say, the owner of the cattle allows them to stray and it is possible that they may have come into contact with infection.

The next is Section 5. Under the present legislation, where animals are slaughtered there is power, of course, to make the necessary graves for the dead animals on the land of the person who owns the cattle, but the Minister has no power to requisition land outside that. During the last outbreak, although we did not actually come up against this particular difficulty, we were very nearly coming up against it. For instance, take the case of a man who has taken land on the 11 months' system. When the 11 months are up of course he cannot move diseased cattle because he would not be permitted to move them, but he would have no right to the land, and if the cattle were slaughtered in such circumstances it is doubtful whether, under the law as it stands, the Minister would have power to make the necessary graves for the dead cattle. That is altogether a necessary power.

Section 6 gives to the Minister power that the local authorities have already, and that is where diseased cattle are found at a fair or a market or a sale yard or any other public place, an inspector of the Minister can take those cattle away and have them isolated or slaughtered as the case may be. The local authorities have that power at the moment under the Principal Act but the Minister has not got the power and it is well that he should have it, because those diseases are mostly dealt with now by the central authority rather than by the local authority.

Section 7 deals with the question of penalties. Under the present law, the penalty must not exceed £20, or £5 per head, whichever is the less. If there are three cattle, for instance, the penalty cannot be more than £15. That is, of course, the court penalty, apart from the penalty of withholding payment, which the Minister has in his own hands. The court penalty cannot exceed £20, or £5 per head. The law is being changed there to a penalty of £100, and the necessary repeals of the original Act are being made.

Section 8 deals with compensation under Section 5, where land is taken on another person's holding for the burial of animals, or under Section 6, where a yard or buildings are taken to isolate or keep cattle other than those of the owner of the place. This section provides for the compensation payable to the owner of the land or premises, as the case may be.

Section 9 deals with the question of court fines. As the law now stands, these fines go into the Cattle Diseases Fund. That was quite fair and just in the Act of 1894, as it was contemplated under that Act that the local authority would deal with these diseases and, therefore, the fines would go into the Cattle Diseases Fund, which goes to the local authorities eventually in dealing with disease. These diseases, such as the foot-and-mouth disease, swine fever or — if there ever were an attack —pleuro-pneumonia, would now be dealt with by the central authority and, therefore, it is only right that any fines or penalties would go into the Central Fund rather than into the Cattle Diseases Fund.

As I explained under Section 2, Sections 5 and 6, 8, 9 and 12, of the Principal Act are repealed, 5, 6, 8 and 9 being no longer necessary, as the cases will be dealt with under Section 10.

I know that Deputies have a strong objection to what is known as legislation by reference. I can see the point in that, as when I was in opposition myself and took an interest in a Bill of this kind, it needed a great deal of research and trouble to go back over all these Acts to find out the references. I would like very much to bring these Acts up to date. This, certainly, is one of the codes which should be brought up to date by an Act simplifying or codifying all the legislation on the diseases of animals. I feel, however, that the report to be presented by the Post-war Emergency Committee, dealing with veterinary services and the diseases of animals in general, will make further legislation necessary when it has been fully considered. On that occasion, I hope to introduce a new Act to bring the whole legislation up to date and, at the same time, repeal all the old Acts.

We have no objection to the Bill, and think it is necessary. There are, however, a few details which possibly the Minister might be prepared to adjust in Committee. The Bill appears to us to be all right. Section 3 is essential, as there were certain omissions regarding cattle dying before they were destroyed and, obviously, this provision has to be put in. Section 4 empowers the Minister to withhold payment, and I object to that legislation. If an individual commits an offence and is brought to court and the judge — in his discretion and training as a judge — fixes the penalty for the offence, it should end at that. I do not think this House should permit any Minister to set himself up in the capacity of a judge to bring further judgment on the individual who has committed an offence. We should leave that function completely to the court. The Minister may say that it is in the old Act, but surely that is no reason why we should slavishly follow that legislation, if we object to certain principles in it. We should remember, when we are amending it, that the function of administering justice in this country rightly belongs to the court. There is a tendency creeping into legislation and Ministerial Orders in recent years where Ministers are arrogating to themselves the function of the judge and the administration of justice. That is a most objectionable phase in our legislation. The Minister should be reconsider this matter. I think he cannot defend the reservation to the Minister of the right to hold a further court and sit in judgment on an individual, after the ordinary court proceedings. A very severe penalty has already been inflicted, seeing that we are raising the penalty under Section 7 from £20 to £100.

On Section 5, dealing with the provision of ground for burial of carcasses of cattle that have been destroyed, I can understand the necessity for taking power under this section; but it is necessary to ensure, at the same time, that that power will not be abused. There may be two farms adjoining and the inspector and his staff dealing with an outbreak may go on to the neighbouring farm and make the graveyard there simply because they find it a little more convenient. The Minister has cited two cases where it would be quite fair and where it would be absolutely essential, showing that we must make this provision. We must look at it the other way, too, as power of this sort may be used to provide a burial place anywhere that is most convenient. The Minister should ensure that, if there is a suitable place for the burial of destroyed cattle on the farm where they belong, they should be buried there. The individuals who have no disease on their farm and who have no stock of their own involved should be protected to that extent.

I agree with the Minister on Section 6, that he ought to have the power originally vested in the local authority. In fact, the local authority does not operate that at all, so far as the inspection of live stock at fairs or markets is concerned. I think that no provision is made for such inspections at all. The responsibility would rest entirely with his Department.

I would not like to say they all neglect their duties in that way.

Generally, they do. I am not aware of any local authority which carries out inspection of stock at fairs and markets at all. On the question of compensation for cattle destroyed under Section 6 or land compulsorily acquired under Section 5, Section 8 says that, if the applicant does not accept the offer made by the Minister and there is failure to agree on the compensation, the case may go to arbitration. The principle of one party to that arbitration having the right to select the arbitrator is absolutely unsound and the Minister should not take the power to appoint him. There are two parties to the dispute, yet it is provided that one party will have power to select the arbitrator. Obviously, that should be done by an independent individual — the President of the High Court or someone like that, certainly not by the Minister, who is an interested party in the matter at issue.

Would the Minister tell us exactly how the Cattle Diseases Fund is to be provided? Is it by a Vote of this House? In that case it is really as long as it is short, whether whatever penalties are imposed for offences go into the Exchequer or into the Diseases of Animals Fund. I really do not see the point in that. There is just one other point to which I should like to refer. The Minister in the debate on the last outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease informed the House that it was his intention to remove the right of appeal in regard to compensation. I do not think he has carried out that threat in this Bill. I am glad he has not, but I want an assurance from the Minister that he has dropped the idea of denying to the individual the right of appeal in the matter of compensation. I should like to know whether that is so or not. If it is not so, I want to argue the matter, but if it is so, there is no necessity to develop it. So far as I can see we are not repealing that part of the Act under which the individual has the right of appeal.

That is right. I shall deal with the matter further.

Very good. I agree with the Minister that it is necessary to codify this legislation and bring it up to date. It is desirable that we should wait until we find out the sort of legislation that is necessary to deal with the new situation in regard to the provision of veterinary services for our live-stock industry and what we intend to do in regard to post-war planning. I can see the wisdom of waiting to take the whole job together and to codify all the Acts when post-war plans are properly prepared. I hope the Minister will consider the matters I have mentioned and recognise the desirability, firstly, of having an impartial individual selected as arbitrator; and, secondly, of protecting individuals so far as empowering the veterinary staff to acquire ground anywhere is concerned. The power given there is a little too wide and there should be some limitation imposed on it.

This Bill deals mainly with matters of detail and I think the House will be prepared to support it. The necessity for the Bill, apparently, became obvious as a result of the experience of the Minister in dealing with the foot-and-mouth disease epidemic. It is desirable, as the Minister pointed out, to have legislation of this kind codified so that Deputies and, still more important, farmers and veterinary people concerned, would be able to see exactly what their rights and powers are. The position to which Deputy Hughes has referred under Section 4, paragraph (c), under which the Minister has power to withhold compensation from individuals, requires, I think, some further consideration. The paragraph reads: "the powers shall be exercisable (in addition to the cases mentioned in the said sub-section) where the Minister is of opinion that the owner or person in charge of the animal slaughtered or directed to be slaughtered, did not take, in relation to the relevant outbreak of the disease, adequate precautions to prevent the spread of the disease." It is not a very simple matter to decide whether the owner of the stock has or has not taken adequate precautions. It is a matter about which there could be a very considerable difference of opinion and, for that reason, it seems to be rather unfair to leave the matter to the Minister to decide. In this case the Minister must be governed or directed by the opinion of whatever inspector happens to be on the spot. There does not seem to be adequate protection there for the owner of the stock and I think, having regard to the difficulty which would arise in deciding whether a person was guilty or not, it would be desirable to leave the matter for decision in the courts.

The penalty provided under this Bill is very much increased as compared with previous legislation. I think it should be ample and even if the Minister considered it was not ample, it would be better to increase the penalty rather than have a clause of this kind under which a person may be penalised by the direct action of the Minister's Department operating through the Minister's official. I think the Bill would be very much improved by deleting that section, and I should like to hear what the Minister will have to say in defence of it. It is gratifying to be informed that the Minister has plans for providing a better veterinary service in future, and I think the House will await with interest an outline of the proposals. Apart from the section which has been referred to, there is not very much in this Bill to which anyone could take serious exception. As farmers, some of us may feel that the penalty provided in Section 7 is rather severe, but I think we can expect that the courts of this country will be fair and impartial and that they will not impose the maximum penalty without just reason. I am very anxious to hear what the Minister has to say in regard to Section 4.

As Deputies have stated, this is a Bill that could be more suitably discussed on the next stage, when we shall come to deal with it section by section. There were just one or two points raised on which I should like to say a word. Deputy Hughes and Deputy Cogan object to the provisions of Section 4, that is, to the arbitrary powers of the Minister to withhold compensation. I quite expected that, because I think that if I were in opposition I would object to them myself, but, on the other hand, I think that if Deputy Hughes or Deputy Cogan ever come over to this side of the House and have to deal with an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease they will change their minds. They will come to realise that it is only when a person at the top has very arbitrary remedies or penalties at his disposal that he will be able to prevent certain people acting against the common good. I do not want to condemn the farmers in general because farmers in general are always very amenable to the law, but there are always certain individuals who will try to save their own stock by moving them or who will perhaps try to conceal the disease. Unless these individuals can be dealt with very drastically, it will be impossible to control an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. I should have to resist very strongly any opposition to the provisions of Section 4. I think that an outbreak could not be dealt with without these drastic provisions, but I do not think that they should be used very often. They were not used very often in the last outbreak. The whole sum withheld in compensation by the Minister amounted only to a few thousand pounds, but the withholding of that money had a very salutary effect in some cases. If Deputy Hughes will read Section 5 carefully, he will see that it provides that, where no suitable ground is available, the Minister can go outside a particular holding for ground in which to bury the animals.

In actual practice, what does that mean?

In practice, he will not go outside the holding. Why should he, if suitable ground is available there? Animals are slaughtered as near as possible to the spot where they are found, and they are buried in the same place, because the less removal the better. Section 8 applies to cases in which land is taken for burial purposes, or yards or houses are taken near market-places to isolate animals. The person concerned may not be satisfied with the compensation awarded by the Minister, and he has a right of appeal to an arbitrator. Deputy Hughes says that it is unfair that one party to the dispute should appoint the arbitrator. I think that there is something in that point, and we can look into it. However, it is so small a matter that it would be hardly worth while going to the Chief Justice and asking him to appoint an arbitrator.

It is a matter of principle.

It will be a question of £10 or £12. In principle, it is not right that one party to a dispute should have the appointment of the arbitrator, and we shall see if some other way of dealing with the matter can be found. As regards the right of appeal which Deputy Hughes mentioned, we found during the late foot-and-mouth outbreak that it was very foolish to have an appeal, because the animals were slaughtered and buried before that appeal could be determined. What could an appeal tribunal do in those circumstances? They were not in a position to question the compensation given by the arbitrator appointed by the Minister. We had to say, "His word is final", having appointed a fair and reasonable person to do the job.

You stopped it by Emergency Order.

Yes, but we were only amending an Order; we were not amending an Act. It is unnecessary to bring that provision into this Bill. If a new Order is being made the Order will make the necessary amendments with regard to appeal. Deputies will see the force of what I have said —that there was no great use in having an appeal if the animals could no longer be seen. Let us try to make the best possible provision for arbitration, so that the owner of the cattle will get fair play or more than fair play. I think Deputies will admit that the compensation was generous in the case of cattle slaughtered in the last outbreak, and it was right it should be so. But these matters can be better discussed on Committee Stage.

I asked about the Cattle Diseases Fund.

The Cattle Diseases Fund is made up from two sources. There is a levy on the rate of each local authority. That levy is not made every year but only when it is necessary to build up the fund. The rate is ½d. in the £. Then, every year, the Exchequer pays over between £3,000 and £4,000. I should have to look up the particulars to explain why the amount varies. It varies slightly from year to year but it is always about £3,000 or £4,000. The ½d. rate levied over all the counties produces something in the region of £20,000, so far as I remember.

The Minister referred to the making of an Order. Suppose, in the post-war period, you had not power under the Emergency Powers Act to make an Order, could you act by regulation?

An Order was made in 1900 — I do not think that there was any since — to implement various sections of the Act. It was this Order, made in 1900, that provided for the appointment of an arbitrator and for appeal to some form of tribunal. My recollection is that I was told during the foot-and-mouth outbreak of three or four years ago that nobody did appeal until 1941. We then brought in an emergency Order. We could have amended the Order if we had acted in time, but we could not make the provision retrospective.

I think that it was at the back of the minds of the legislators that the putting in of that provision for appeal would ensure that the arbitrator would act properly. It would be unwise to do away with that. It is a wise provision, seeing that you are compulsorily destroying property in the interest of the health of the cattle population. The individual is thereby satisfied that he gets fair compensation. When an arbitrator is working under these provisions, he is conscious of the fact that the individual has a right to go to court and that is helpful.

If he has a right of appeal. If the 1900 Order is being amended, following this Act, the Order amending it will have to be laid on the Table of the House and that will be the time to discuss it.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 1st November.
Barr
Roinn