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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 31 Jan 1945

Vol. 95 No. 14

Public Business. - Tuberculosis (Establishment of Sanatoria) Bill, 1945—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The proposals in this Bill, together with the motion on the Order Paper dealing with tuberculosis, afford an opportunity, which I welcome, for the fullest discussion on the tuberculosis problem. At the outset let me point out that within recent years there has been a great change in the medical approach to tuberculosis as a result of which I have found it necessary to reorganise the tuberculosis services of local authorities in order to provide, as far as possible, the most up-to-date methods of diagnosis and treatment. It is in relation to this general scheme of reorganisation that the provision of sanatorium accommodation has become a matter of the greatest urgency. In order that we may clearly understand the position as we find it to-day, it is necessary to review the efforts that have been made in the past to deal with this disease. From the year 1901 onwards, local authorities were invited to take steps to counter the exceptionally high death rate from tuberculosis and to guard against the spread of the disease. It was not, however, until 1908 when the Tuberculosis Prevention (Ireland) Act was passed that the basis of the present scheme was laid. The administration of the Act was entrusted to the county councils and the county borough councils. It was, in fact, the first health function with which the county councils were charged. They were empowered to establish and maintain hospitals and dispensaries for the treatment of the tuberculous inhabitants of their areas, or to enter into agreement with the authorities of existing institutions for the provision of such treatment. The power of requiring notification was restricted to the forms of tuberculosis which, on medical grounds, were regarded as dangerous. Owing to the divided state of public opinion at the time notification was only required to be made where the patient, in the opinion of the medical attendant, was liable to communicate the disease to other persons.

A new and more active phase in the struggle against tuberculosis was inaugurated by the National Health Insurance Act, 1911, when specific funds were made available for the treatment of tuberculous patients. Sanatorium benefit was instituted, and insurance committees were established for the administration of such benefit amongst persons who were insured.

In connection with the Insurance Act of 1911 a capital grant of £1,500,000 was appropriated by Parliament in aid of the cost of establishing sanatoria, and other like institutions. Ireland's share of this Sanatorium Grant amounted to £145,623.

Very little had been done by the county and county borough councils towards the treatment of tuberculosis before 1911. There was no provision for making any contribution to the expenditure out of Government funds. In the financial year 1913-14 an annual grant of one-half of the net cost of approved tuberculosis schemes was voted by Parliament. This grant— generally called the National Tuberculosis Grant—has continued ever since.

Tuberculosis schemes drawn up then included (a) dispensary treatment, (b) treatment in sanatoria, and (c) domiciliary treatment. There was in addition a nursing service, a notification scheme, and a laboratory service for diagnosis. A study of the amounts spent under the heading of the National Tuberculosis Grant reveals how the service developed during the years from 1922-23 to 1940-41. The amounts expended from this grant on the basis of one-half of the approved expenditure of local authorities on tuberculosis schemes increased gradually each year from £21,114 in 1922-23 to £174,560 during the year 1943-44.

Prior to the Sanatorium Grant being made available for the provision of institutions for the treatment of tuberculosis, there had been only three public sanatoria established providing about 340 beds, namely, Newcastle, County Wicklow; Heatherside, County Cork; and Crooksling, County Dublin. As a result of the assistance afforded from the sanatorium grant, Peamount Sanatorium, Co. Dublin was opened by the Women's National Health Association in the year 1912. Thirteen county councils contracted with the Association for the reservation of institutional accommodation, in all about 200 beds for patients from their respective counties who were suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis in its earlier stages.

In the years following, it was found that the most difficult part of the campaign against tuberculosis was the problem of the advanced case and the satisfactory isolation of this type of patient. Every effort was then made to establish local sanatoria to facilitate the hospitalisation of such cases. Before 1922 the only special institution provided to cope with this problem was the Tuberculosis Hospital, Pigeon House Road, Dublin. Since then the number of beds provided for advanced cases increased to 1,975, of which 1,220 were reserved in general institutions approved of by the Department, while in special institutions, including Rialto Hospital, Dublin, and Pigeon House Road Hospital, 755 beds were provided. For early cases, Peamount Sanatorium. Crooksling, Heatherside, County Cork; Newcastle, County Wicklow; and Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Dun Laoghaire, were reserved and provided 875 beds. In addition 407 beds were in use for non-pulmonary tuberculosis. They were located principally at St. Mary's Hospital, Cappagh, and St. Joseph's Hospital, Coole. These give a grand total of 2,850 beds for the treatment of pulmonary tuberculosis and 407 beds for the treatment of non-pulmonary forms of the disease—principally of bones and joints. This was the accommodation which had gradually been built up between the years 1914 and 1940. During the last four years a further 253 beds have been provided for the treatment of tuberculosis, in spite of war conditions, of shortage of building materials and essential service supplies.

It is significant that, according as the tuberculosis service has been developed and the yearly cost increased, there has been a concomitant fall in the number of deaths, up to the year 1938. For instance, the total number of deaths from all forms of tuberculosis in the Twenty-Six Counties area in 1904 was 8,798; in 1910 the number had fallen to 7,017; in 1921 to 4,824, and in 1929 to 3,875. In 1938 the figure fell to 3,216—the lowest ever recorded. From 1938 the number increased gradually, so that in 1940 there were 3,685 deaths; in 1942, 4,347, while in 1943 the mortality had decreased again to 4,306.

As a result of the inquiries set on foot by my Department, and from the reports received from the medical superintendent officers of health and county medical officers, many causes have been advanced as being responsible for this rise in the death rate.

Housing conditions, malnutrition, return from outside the State of workers broken down in health, physical strain of training in the Defence Forces, increase in dancing facilities, movement of population from rural to urban areas, have all been cited as causes. Any or all of these factors may have had some influence, but I am not satisfied that they fully explain the rather steep rise in the death rate in the early years of the emergency. After the fullest examination of the position, I have reached the conclusion that some new factor affecting all sections of the people has exercised an influence. A possible increase in the virulence of the disease has to be considered, but, for my part, I look towards changes in our nutritional state as offering the most promising field for investigation. I want to avoid any highly technical dissertation on this subject, but Deputies will understand me when I say that calcium intimately enters into the healing process of tuberculous lesions; that it also has to do with our powers of resistance; and that a deficiency in blood calcium might render us particularly vulnerable. Now, there is substantial evidence that during the emergency we have been, and perhaps we still are, suffering from calcium deficiency, and while I am awaiting the advice of the scientists on this complex question, I have planned to err. on the side of safety and guard against calcium deficiency. As the House is aware, Professor Dillon, of University College, Dublin, and Dr. Murnaghan— a brilliant young graduate working under him—are pursuing this scientific problem for me. It will be some years before they will be in a position to reach firm conclusions, but whatever the outcome, they deserve our gratitude and appreciation for the earnestness with which they have undertaken their scientific labours.

Generally speaking, it has been impossible with the means at our disposal to determine the influence of what is called malnutrition. I may mention that the layman's conception of malnutrition usually conveys a very misleading impression. Malnutrition may be found in the midst of plenty. Powers of assimilating food are not by any means standard. One, human being will thrive on a diet that might not sustain health even in a member of the same family, and food though abundant in quantity may be lacking in essential nutritional elements. An investigation under the direction of the chief medical adviser of the Department into this whole problem of nutrition is being arranged in conjunction with the Medical Research Council.

As regards housing conditions, I have instituted an inquiry which the county and superintendent medical officers of health have carried out with great zeal to determine the extent of overcrowding amongst those persons who are known to suffer from the disease. An analysis of the results obtained as a result of this inquiry is being carried out, and I shall have to consider every possible means by which segregation within the home can be provided for those persons who have undergone institutional treatment, or have returned to their homes and are being looked after by the local tuberculosis service. In this connection I would ask the House to advert to the great improvement in housing conditions since the passing of the 1932 Housing Act.

In recent years active interest has been aroused in the spread of the disease, and as a result representations on the subject have been made to me by several bodies. The tuberculosis sub-committee appointed by the Council of the Royal Irish Academy of Medicine made a special report in 1942 and submitted a scheme to provide for the detection, treatment, cure and prevention of pulmonary tuberculosis. This scheme envisaged the provision of a central tuberculosis dispensary, a centre or centres for differential diagnosis and early treatment, well-equipped modern sanatoria, and efficient after-care in the patient's home to be the essential elements around which a service ought to be built.

In their second general report the Hospitals Commission dealt specially with tuberculosis. They advanced many attractive suggestions, and in particular recommended the establishment of four sanatoria for the treatment of early cases. They suggested that regional sanatoria be situated in Dublin, Cork, and in the West, with the retention of Peamount as a centre for the eastern counties. On the broad question of additional accommodation for pulmonary cases the Commission were of opinion that the provision of outdoor pavilions on the grounds of existing hospitals is only temporising with the bed shortage position and that the real solution is to concentrate on the earliest possible realisation of the projected sanatoria.

In December, 1943, the Anti-Tuberculosis Section of the Irish Red Cross presented to me the report of their survey committee which had been considering the outlines of a long-term tuberculosis project. As a basis for discussion they adopted two principles. (1) That the standard set up by the National Tuberculosis Association of the U.S.A. of two beds per death should be adopted in Ireland. (2) That the patients should not be classified as early, moderate, and advanced, with a view to the hospitalisation of these three classes of patients in separate self-contained institutions; and that all types of pulmonary tuberculosis should be treated in the same institution with separate accommodation within this institution for sputum positive and sputum negative cases. The society also favoured the establishment of regional sanatoria, and they suggested that it was essential to reduce the number of fully-equipped institutions to a minimum, and advised that not more than five such institutions should be provided to meet total needs.

I take this opportunity of acknowledging the valuable and wholehearted assistance which I have received from the Anti-Tuberculosis Section of the Irish Red Cross Society, and from the other agencies and private persons whom I have not mentioned, but who from time to time have offered useful suggestions, and I assure the House that I have given long and serious consideration to the various proposals submitted to me.

I am convinced that any scheme which might be expected to deal successfully with the threat of tuberculosis to our community must contain the following elements. Firstly, effective and up-to-date methods of detecting the disease, not alone in an early stage in those who contract it, but in unsuspected persons who may be sources of infection. Secondly, satisfactory segregation of those persons with pulmonary tuberculosis who are sputum positive and hence liable to spread the disease. Thirdly, the ability to provide the most efficient and advanced treatment in institutions specially designed and equipped for the purpose. Fourthly, special protection, including medical observation and advice, nutritional and other assistance measures as required, for those groups who, though not at the time suffering from tuberculosis, are most especially in danger, by reason of their exposure to infection; and fifthly, the development of an adequate and comprehensive welfare service which will enable those people who are so unfortunate as to be stricken by this disease to sustain themselves and their families in reasonable comfort, so that by the aid of the community of which they are members they may be enabled to undergo treatment. Lastly, a vigorous campaign of propaganda and education which will counter foolish prejudices in the minds of our people which militate against the efforts of those who strive to combat the evil, and which will also, by the inculcation of a healthy way of life, strengthen and guard our people against this scourge.

I would point out that one of our greatest difficulties arises from the fact that, in the great majority of cases patients first coming to our notice are already in an advanced stage. The insidious onset of the disease is, no doubt, to some extent responsible for this state of affairs. The individual affected does not notice anything out of the ordinary at first, so that generally he is far advanced in the disease before medical advice is sought.

Another factor that seriously hampers our efforts is the widespread belief that tuberculosis is hereditary. It is evident that a lot more educational work will have to be done before there is a general acceptance of the fact that everyone is born free from this disease; that over 70 per cent. of us contract it in some form; and that, so far from tuberculosis being incurable, 90 per cent. of the people who contract it get well without any special treatment. Thanks mainly to the educational efforts of the Anti-Tuberculosis Section of the Irish Red Cross Society a more enlightened outlook is rapidly becoming evident. There is great scope for further fruitful effort in this direction and I have no doubt the effort will be made. The vital importance of this matter will be understood when it is realised that an inquiry, which I have caused to be made throughout Ireland, has shown that more than 60 per cent. from one end of this country to another, of the cases which were referred to the Tuberculosis Medical Service, were in an advanced condition.

The isolation of known open cases is, undoubtedly, an object to be achieved as a matter of great urgency. It is the most direct method we have for reducing the prevalence of tubercle bacilli in our surroundings. It is the measure which, applied to the smallest number of persons, gives the maximum of protection to the community. Further, it is in the household associates of the open case that the search for additional cases should begin, with almost the certainty of finding persons affected by the disease who were hitherto unsuspected.

As regards the point that a service should provide the most efficient and advanced treatment in institutions which would be of the latest and best design, and furnished with the most up-to-date equipment, I would simply state that the whole purpose of the Bill under consideration is to achieve this end.

The question of after-care, with which I associate propaganda and education, is one meriting serious consideration. In this country there is no doubt that our way of life and many of our habits are particularly conducive to the spread of tuberculosis. It is also true that there are many prejudices which are quite natural and understandable to one who, like myself, claims to have a close knowledge of our people. Therefore, any service which does not include wide provision to combat these two features would be deficient and ineffective, but as I have already indicated, this particular field provides ample scope for such influential and widespread organisations as the Irish Red Cross Society acting in close co-operation with our tuberculosis services under the guidance of the responsible Department of State.

I would point out that the Legislature has vested in the central authority the duty of supervising the measures taken by local authorities under the powers conferred on these authorities under the Tuberculosis Acts, 1908 and 1913. My Department is in constant communication with these authorities in regard to the steps to be taken for the prevention of the spread of tuberculosis, and for the treatment of tuberculous patients. It is not considered necessary to establish another and a new governing body.

With regard to the co-ordination and intensification of the efforts of the various bodies engaged in combating the disease, as suggested by the motion, let me first classify their nature. They are the local authorities through their approved tuberculosis schemes, voluntary organisations operating tuberculosis institutions, voluntary organisations operating institutions not wholly devoted to the treatment of tuberculosis but in which beds are specially reserved for tuberculous patients, district nursing associations and the Anti-Tuberculosis Section of the Irish Red Cross Society.

The efforts of these bodies are, in fact, co-ordinated to a high degree through my Department. It must be conceded that they deal with features of the problem with which, in some respects, it is not possible for the State or any statutory body acting alone to cope satisfactorily. It has always been my policy and the policy of my Department to assist in whatever way lay in our power the various bodies now engaged in combating the disease. We have endeavoured to integrate them into our national service and to utilise their abilities to the greatest possible degree. I can, in fact, say that there is not a bed in a voluntary institution that is not constantly occupied, nor is there any member of the personnel of any voluntary organisation in this country who is not afforded the fullest scope for his activity. I have aided by subsidy, by the granting of facilities, by the smoothing of difficulties, by expert advice and by granting official approval any reputable voluntary organisation who would help me in the fight against tuberculosis. I can, therefore, say that every effort to achieve co-ordination has been made and that there is no waste of effort of which I am aware.

As I have indicated, the principal weapon in the fight against tuberculosis is the approved tuberculosis scheme operated by each local authority. The medical superintendent officer of health or the county medical officer of health, as the case may be, is the authority co-ordinating the various elements of the scheme in each area. He has under his direction one or more assistant county medical officers of health with special experience of tuberculosis work, or whole-time tuberculosis officers. These officers carry out clinical tuberculosis work under the scheme, and in fact most of the county medical officers of health themselves undertake duties in this regard. As anyone can understand, the quality, efficiency, and activity of any public health scheme depend primarily upon the personnel. In order to obtain the best possible officers for the service I have consistently over a number of years insisted on an ever-rising standard of qualification. Through the Local Appointments Commission I have been enabled to obtain better and better trained men. I have also within recent months instituted a system of refresher courses for county and assistant county medical officers of health so that the staffs of the local authority tuberculosis services will be brought to the highest level of knowledge of the most modern methods in use for diagnosis and treatment of the disease. These courses are continuing, and will continue, until I am satisfied that all have benefited. In accordance with developments, either in medical practice or in relation to the schemes, further opportunities for post-graduate work will continually be available. I might add that I am also arranging for post-graduate tours abroad to enable officers to profit by the experience and development of tuberculosis work in other countries. Facilities for private study leave and opportunities for research have been and are availed of by medical officers.

I would also like to refer briefly to the nursing service of the schemes. In each area there is available one or more public health nurses devoting part of their time to tuberculosis work. In the county borough areas, and in some of the county areas, whole-time tuberculosis nurses are employed. In all areas where it has been found useful to do so, the services of nurses employed by local district nursing associations have been utilised for duties under tuberculosis schemes. In passing, I may say that subsidies ranging from £15 to £40 a year are paid to the associations in respect of the services of each nurse. It is my intention to develop further the domiciliary nursing services available in each area. I am considering how best this can be achieved, and I can promise that with the general development of the service there will be a simultaneous improvement in the domiciliary nursing of tuberculosis.

I come now to the tuberculosis centre. The pivot upon which the whole anti-tuberculosis structure is based is the dispensary. In each area there has been established a central tuberculosis dispensary, usually situated at the point of largest population, with branches at places in the county or area offering the greatest convenience for the attendance of patients. It is my intention to develop such centres, both central and branch, to a much greater extent. They will in future come to be the principal diagnostic centres for the disease. They will be equipped so that each centre will be able to provide, as a minimum service, what can only be regarded as the fullest and most comprehensive investigation of the disease. Further, treatment of a specialised nature, such as pneumo-thorax work, hitherto not everywhere available, will be universally provided. In this respect my Department is seeking to secure supplies of apparatus, both X-ray and technical, but reasonable people will appreciate the special difficulties of the present period, and those of them who are able to rise above political considerations will be understanding and helpful.

The intensification of a case-finding programme based upon the efforts of local medical officers, nurses, medical practitioners, voluntary agencies, and local authorities is one of the most important features of my proposed reorganisation of the tuberculosis service. I have inquired recently from the officers of the tuberculosis service with regard to the matter of tuberculin testing. I find that many of them have schemes already in operation for the detection of cases by this method. Many others are actually organising such schemes. In order to enable us to arrive at a common understanding of the results to be obtained from these schemes, my Department, under the direction of Dr. Deeny, our distinguished chief medical adviser, has instituted a research into the relative values of the various forms of the tuberculin tests. This work is at the moment being carried out actively. A great development in the search for the disease amongst contacts is projected. The system of record-keeping is being further examined with a view to the organisation of a better means of approach to the aspect of past relationships to present cases.

On the subject of mass radiography, I may say that the apparatus for this purpose has been ordered and the moment it arrives we will be ready to develop this further method of attack on the tuberculosis problem. Each tuberculosis officer throughout the country is conscious, and has been made more conscious, of the necessity for the detection, not alone of the early case, which will be most likely to yield to treatment, but of the unsuspected and unsuspecting sources of infection. During recent years it has become more and more apparent, and it is now generally recognised, that the diagnosis of the early case of tuberculosis can only be effectively and accurately carried out by means of the X-ray. As a medical man myself, I must admit that the stethoscope is no longer sufficient, nor can it detect the first signs of the disease at a stage sufficiently early. Therefore, I am endeavouring by every means in my power to provide further X-ray apparatus; to increase the facilities for radiological examination; and in spite of war conditions, which make the supply of apparatus so difficult, to overcome any hindrance to development of this diagnostic aid.

As regards treatment, a fatalistic attitude towards the disease has been adopted in some parts of the country. The outlook has been that once a person is stricken with consumption nothing can be done for him. I wish to enlist the aid of all intelligent people to correct this frame of mind. There is no case so far advanced that it will not benefit from present-day treatment, and I can definitely state that it is my policy that every case, no matter in what stage of the disease, will be given the best possible treatment for his condition. If it is that symptomatic treatment alone will benefit, then symptomatic treatment will be given. It might appear to some that such a statement is unnecessary, and that under present conditions there is no person who does not receive treatment, but I assure the House, as I would the people as a whole, more particularly those who are so unfortunate as to suffer from tuberculosis, that the most advanced treatment will be available to them as quickly as human effort can overcome the obstacles.

During the course of my speech I have outlined the essentials for an anti-tuberculosis service, and I have discussed its relationship with voluntary bodies, especially with regard to their particular ability to carry out in the attack on tuberculosis useful functions which lie in their sphere. I described the necessity for an adequate educational campaign to overcome the natural prejudice of the people, and to eliminate habits of life likely to bring about the development of tuberculosis in young people.

I have adverted to the problem of the patient who returns to his home surroundings after a period of treatment in an institution, and the even greater problem of the distress occasioned in the home when the bread-winner contracts the disease, and I have indicated how voluntary organisations can be mobilised for the fight under a common leadership. Accordingly, I propose to ask the Irish Red Cross Society particularly to concern itself with education and propaganda, and with after-care and rehabilitation. In the field of education they have already been particularly active, and, as a result of the intensification of their efforts, I look forward to the disappearance of obstacles that stand between us and real achievement.

The first positive measure which is needed is the provision of additional bed accommodation. In present conditions a programme for its provision to the extent that is immediately required will not be realised without a very radical change in existing procedure. After careful study and examination of the problem in all its aspects it is decided to set up a special organisation within my Department to deal with the provision and equipment of sanatoria on a regional basis. While the Bill proposes to confer such power on the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, it does not follow that the powers of local bodies in this respect are being removed, or that their responsibilities for the provision of measures to combat tuberculosis are being in any way lessened. There is no question of superseding local authorities in the administration of schemes for the treatment of tuberculosis. On the contrary, the main object is to provide these bodies with the institutions which are required to enable them, in partnership with the State, to intensify their efforts in the eradication of the disease.

Modern tuberculosis treatment requires team-work; that is, close co-operation between those who diagnose the disease and those who treat it. This means collaboration between surgeons, physicians, radiologists and pathologists, all of whom must have at their disposal the most modern facilities and equipment. In addition, the basis of all successful tuberculosis prevention is the rapid removal of the sputum positive or infectious case from his normal surroundings. The only form of hospital institution in which all these requirements can be fulfilled is a modern sanatorium, which is really a combination of hospital and sanatorium. It may, therefore, be assumed that sanatoria of this type are essential for the treatment of pulmonary tuberculosis.

The number of beds to be provided has been carefully considered and it has been decided that we will require at least 4,300 beds. Consequently, in addition to the number at present available, approximately 2,100 extra beds will be required at once. It has been suggested that as many as 7,000 beds are necessary, but the medical advisers of my Department are satisfied that 4,300 beds should be the immediate target, with the possibility of providing more if necessary.

As I have already mentioned, the Irish Red Cross Society recommended the provision of regional sanatoria and it is now intended to provide three such institutions as follows:—

(1) An institution containing 1,000 beds to serve the needs of Dublin City and County. (2) An institution containing 680 beds, to be located in Cork, to serve the Counties of Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Clare, Kerry and Tipperary (N.R.) and (S.R.), together with County Boroughs of Cork, Limerick and Waterford. (3) An institution containing 400 beds, to be located in Galway, and to serve the Counties of Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo, Donegal and Leitrim.

The eastern region, consisting of Counties Carlow, Cavan, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laoighis, Longford, Louth, Meath, Monaghan, Offaly, Westmeath, Wexford and Wicklow, will be served by the institutions at Peamount and Newcastle Sanatoria and Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Dun Laoghaire.

In the new regional sanatoria it is not intended to design pavilions of an elaborate kind.

The original idea underlying the first establishment of sanatoria was based on the belief that fresh air, rest and good food alone were all that were necessary to cure tuberculosis. Within the last few years great changes have taken place in the views of the medical profession on the treatment of tuberculosis. As a result of modern advances and discoveries in medicine and surgery, more active treatment of a specialist and surgical nature can be applied with much better results than were formerly obtained by rest and fresh air alone. Consequently sanatoria have changed from being merely homes of rest, to active treatment centres where all forms of the disease are combated with vigour.

If one accepts this approach to the treatment of tuberculosis the advantages of larger regional sanatoria become obvious. For instance, it is not economic to provide the full range of service; or the same high standard of efficiency in medical and nursing services and equipment, in many small local institutions scattered throughout the country, and serving only local needs. Full efficiency can only be achieved and maintained in large institutions.

In relation to the hospitalisation of tuberculosis the advanced case has always presented a serious problem. The disease is always most infectious at this stage, and therefore it is imperative that such cases must be put under institutional care. There are few cases so far advanced that they will not receive benefit from active treatment. With the present accommodation available—that is, mainly in small local institutions — the segregation of such persons inevitably leads to these places being regarded as unsuitable and unfavourable for the treatment of early cases. They have came to bear in the public mind in some instances an unhealthy reputation. In the new institutions, which I have in mind, active treatment of a most advanced nature will be provided for all cases by the best available medical personnel. By reason of the flexible nature of this planning and organisation, accommodation in separate units can be provided for cases in all stages of the disease.

It is clear therefore that the advantages of regional sanatoria, of the latest type, are overwhelming as compared with local institutions.

The provision of regional sanatoria of the size contemplated presents a difficult problem under prevailing conditions, and, it is considered, would be hardly practicable of solution unless there were available the services of a complete team of advisers, and technicians, whose work could be co-ordinated under one direction, and preferably in one organisation.

It has long been established abroad, and is being increasingly recognised here, that the successful carrying out of any large building project speedily, satisfactorily, and economically, depends essentially on the proper direction and co-ordination of the work, from the very earliest planning stage to the actual erection, equipment, and completion of the building. The successful provision of modern buildings, and particularly hospitals with their highly technical equipment, depend not only on the architect, but also on the various branches of engineering, such as civil, structural and mechanical. Quick success will not be obtained even in the planning (quite apart from the carrying out of the project), and direction of the building and subcontractors, unless the architect and engineers work together in close collaboration as a team. Moreover, it is essential that they have available to them throughout the whole course of the work, but particularly in the early planning stages, administrative and medical advisers for consultation in connection with patients' accommodation, staffing, services and equipment.

The local authorities in the three centres where it is intended to provide the sanatoria would not themselves have that complete team which it is considered would be necessary for the satisfactory carrying out of the planning, erection, and equipment, of the projected buildings and their services. Moreover, the local authority's proposals would require to be examined at the various stages of planning and as the work proceeded. Difficulties would probably also arise during the construction period owing to the possible necessity of making decisions on the spot as to substitution of materials, which may have been originally planned for, but which may not be readily obtainable when the actual work is in progress. It would seem, therefore, that no matter how well the local authorities may be able to co-ordinate the work of their own technical advisers and those of private technical advisers whom they may engage, and even with the closest possible liaison with the Department, it would not be practicable to obtain the same co-ordination and speed of work that would be possible with a complete team and organisation working together under a single direction and under the one roof.

It is proposed, therefore, that the planning of the buildings, their services, and supervision of the work during the construction period, will be carried out under the direction of the chief engineering adviser of the Department and his staff, who will have the Department's administrative and medical advisers available to them for consultation.

It is considered that this proposal will achieve that co-ordination and direction of effort which it is desirable to have, in order to provide at as early a date as possible the accommodation required. I am not going now to set down in black and white what our aims are, but I am hopeful that within a year and a half some of the buildings proposed to be erected will be in full use. The institutions which will be built will be of a very much simpler character than the hospitals already built out of Hospitals Trust funds. At the same time they will provide all the essentials for the modern treatment and comfort of the patients who will be accommodated in them. Owing to the difficulty of obtaining materials —particularly those required for the engineering services — there will of necessity be many departures from what may be regarded as standard practice, and while the institutions will be designed so as to have all the normal amenities, should it happen that any of these amenities cannot be included during the building period owing to lack of materials, they will subsequently be provided according as the necessary materials become available.

The cost of establishing the sanatoria which provisionally is estimated at approximately £1,500,000, will be borne by the Hospitals Trust Fund. When the establishment of the sanatoria has been completed they will be transferred to and will vest in the local authority, and the Minister may call upon the local authorities concerned to repay to the Hospitals Trust Board such amount as he considers reasonable, but not more than one-third of the total cost.

As to the other main provisions of the Bill, Section 5 empowers the Minister to direct the Hospitals Trust Board to make payments out of the Hospitals Trust Fund for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the establishment and equipment of a sanatorium, and Section 6 authorises the transfer to a county or county borough council or councils of a sanatorium when established and equipped. The local authority or authorities to which the sanatorium is transferred will be responsible for the upkeep and management of the sanatorium.

Part III of the Bill sets out the procedure to be followed where land is to be acquired compulsorily. The various steps to be taken, firstly, by preliminary order, and, secondly, by vesting order, are defined in Sections 9 and 10. The remaining sections are concerned with procedure in relation to registration, compensation and deducing of title.

I would ask the House to face up to this problem in a realistic way. It would be foolish to ignore the fact that apart from the capital expenditure envisaged in the provision of the proposed sanatoria, the development of the plans I have outlined will involve a very substantial increase in the financial provisions to be made by the local authorities and by the State. It would be safe to predict an increase in the cost of our tuberculosis services of £300,000 per annum within the next five years. In this debate I may be encouraged by the House to spend lavishly, but if the Deputies who so advise me are as earnest in this matter as I believe they are, I would ask them to exercise their full influence, through the Press and otherwise, to create a public opinion that will reflect intelligent understanding. If rising rates and taxes have to be criticised for legitimate political ends, it is not too much to ask in present circumstances that expenditure on public health services be excluded from the calculations. If we stand together and work in harmony we can defeat this menace. I feel confident that a 50 per cent. reduction on the 1942 death rate from tuberculosis could be achieved within a period of ten years. There is no mystery about the manner of spread of this disease. It is an infectious disease, and the day that we succeed in eliminating the sources of infection we shall have solved what is called the tuberculosis problem. Within the framework of the plans I have outlined success can be achieved. I fully realise the special difficulties of the present times. I know I am undertaking a formidable task. I can only assure the House that I mean to succeed, if success can be achieved under present conditions, and I ask the House for the powers sought in this Bill, because I believe that the provision of institutional accommodation is a most urgent pre-requisite to a rational attack on the menace of tuberculosis.

I should like, in the first place, to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his very comprehensive survey, historical and otherwise, of the tuberculosis position in this country. In the course of his remarks, the Parliamentary Secretary told us that this matter has become one of urgency. In my opinion and, I think, in the opinion of most Deputies, it was a matter of urgency for the past 20 years. But it is a matter for congratulation that the Department has at last become awake to the fact that there is an urgent problem there.

It is seldom that a speaker from these benches finds himself standing up to advocate wholehearted support of a measure introduced by the Government. That is the position I find myself in at the moment, and no matter what may be said with regard to inactivity or procrastination in the past, it is welcomed by all that this matter is being tackled now, or at least that it is proposed to tackle it, in a determined and drastic manner.

The Parliamentary Secretary asked us to face up to this matter in a realistic manner. I believe every Deputy in this House who will intervene in this debate will ask the Parliamentary Secretary and his Department to face up to this matter in a realistic manner. There has been in every second county a continuous agitation over the last decade and, indeed, over the last 15 years, for adequate provision for the infectious cases that are lying around in the homes in the different counties, and one of the reasons why that situation was not met earlier was that it was, to say the least of it, extremely difficult to get unanimity between three parties to an agreement — the local bodies down below, the Department of Local Government and the Hospitals Commission. It took time and labour to get those three bodies to see eye to eye and one outstanding reason why we are lagging so far behind in provision for tuberculous patients is because of the difficulty of getting those three bodies to come to speedy agreements.

I am not adopting the stand that the faults lie entirely with any one of the three. The delays of the past were attributable perhaps equally to each one of the three and it is obvious that when a matter is urgent, all delaying factors have to be removed, and it is better to have one of those parties decided that a thing has to be done and taking powers to do it than to leave things as they were. Some people may think that authority to build and then just apply for the money should be left elsewhere than in the Department. I do not think that will be very seriously contended by anybody and, if the arrears are to be overtaken and ample provision made with any speed for institutional accommodation for the patients requiring it, then I think this Bill in itself is sound.

The Bill shows a wonderful economy in words. Perhaps that is wise. The effective section, the only one that really matters, is Section 4, which gives the Minister power to get ahead with the building of the sanatorium and to get the money from the Hospitals Commission, and then the rest are machinery clauses as to how it is passed back to the local bodies and how the payment is made.

In giving us a slight idea of the intentions of the Department under this Bill with regard to the future—that is, the number of beds that it is hoped to establish—the Parliamentary Secretary, as far as I followed the figures, indicated that the number of beds aimed at was something over 4,000. In other words, we were, so to speak, formulating our policy on what I might designate as the old Crimean style of one bed for every death from tuberculosis. I think it is about time these old standards were discarded, and I think it is about time we lost our terror of having an empty bed, or a few empty beds, in a sanatorium. This kind of inch rule where every bed and every bed space must be measured according to the number of corpses in the previous year is, in my opinion, entirely out of date and if the old-time standards were the minimum standards, one institutional bed for each death, surely, if we are to face things as the Parliamentary Secretary asks, in a realistic way, and we are taking some very drastic powers of a revolutionary nature, we should be thinking in terms, and the Parliamentary Secretary's Department should be thinking in terms, of providing two beds at least for each death.

Supposing our institutional accommodation had been doubled during the period when we found tubercular incidence falling—the tubercular deathrate falling—we would not have to face up to a Bill of this kind and we would not be talking now of spending millions in the fight against tuberculosis, because tuberculosis has got ahead of us. If these extraordinary powers are to be vested in the Public Health Department to make adequate provision to prevent the spread of infection, one, and to treat the infected case, two, then those powers should not be exercised in a stingy manner. I can never understand—I never could understand —why certain persons' knees knock together at the thought of empty beds. The most successful bodies in every country in dealing with infectious diseases are undoubtedly the military people, the armies, because infectious disease cannot be tolerated in any army. The reason they are so successful is that they have practically unlimited command of beds, whether inside or outside their control. They have not the same evidences of the spread of infection as one finds in civilian communities, and I believe the reason why infectious diseases are always with us and always spreading in civilian communities is that we are niggardly in our provision of beds, both with regard to tuberculosis and all forms of infectious disease.

When one looks up historical works to find out the justifications for the standards which guide us to-day, one will go back to some of the earliest medical text-books printed to find that we are still adhering to these old-time standards of the bed requirements of the community, whether for tuberculosis or other infectious diseases. The general principle of this Bill is that a central authority gets power to cater for the institutional requirements of the country. That is unquestionably sound. There may be a certain amount of dissatisfaction because cases from one county may have to be catered for in an institution in the next county— perhaps the neighbouring county or perhaps one or two counties away—but if each county had a free hand to have a sanatorium of its own, I do not believe that patients could be properly catered for.

Sanatoria are not so much for the benefit of visitors as for the benefit of the patients, and to give modern exhaustive up-to-date treatment, to have all the modern facilities for diagnosis and for the treatment of the various types of cases which will go into an institution would make an institution catering for small numbers entirely top heavy. If all facilities are to be at the disposal of the patient, then, economically, such a practice would be possible only if we were catering for large units. I certainly welcome this Bill and I look forward, if not with absolute confidence, with a great deal of hope to things in the future being substantialy better than they were in the past.

The Parliamentary Secretary touched on the linking up of welfare schemes with tuberculosis activities and the degree of linking up, the extent to which they are linked up, is, I think, of immense importance. Very often tubercular cases present themselves in a rather advanced state and when asked: "How long have you been complaining?", very frequently the answer is: "Some months," and, occasionally, "Some years." The patient is then asked: "Why did you not get advice earlier?", and the reply is: "I am earning so much a week in a good job. I could not afford to lie up, because if it were known that I had tuberculosis, I would be out of my job."

We cannot just calmly spend millions on bricks and mortar and save pennies on the patients. Sooner or later, we shall have to realise that if we are to get at the centres of infection, namely, the perambulatory cases going into workshops and into different businesses day after day, it can only be done by guaranteeing that there will not be a drop in the household income while the breadwinner is undergoing treatment. I quite appreciate that it is easy enough to express these views, that it is easy enough to talk along these lines, but that it is not so easy to carry them out, and by no manner of means easy to find the money; but apparently in this Bill the thing is to be tackled in a big way, and tackling it in a big way means tackling it in an expensive way. I should like to see some kind of an estimate—it may be a rough estimate—as to the annual cost of keeping the family income of an afflicted person on a regular line while that person is undergoing treatment. That is point No. 1 on the welfare side.

Point No. 2 is the position of the patient who was not in very happy circumstances, the patient who is living on the very destitution line, the patient who may be existing or subsisting, on home help and nothing else, that standard having been the standard of living in the household for a couple of decades. That type of case goes to a sanatorium. A sanatorium is the height of luxury to such a person and he does well there. He has a good bed, good food, no work, attendance and all the rest, and he thrives and prospers like a stall-fed bullock. The result at the end of six or nine months is astonishing, and the case is sent out very much improved or cured and goes back to the old conditions. When you see that case six or eight months later, you feel that it was brutal to have given that patient six or nine months in a sanatorium because it has soured him with his lot in life, and the reaction as between sanatorium conditions and home conditions is so appalling that the case goes consistently backwards. To keep up the standard of living of that case to anything approximating to sanatorium standards is not a simple matter and would definitely be a costly matter, but these are the kinds of things which strike one at the periphery and which might not be so very apparent at the centre.

If I were to criticise tuberculosis records in this country over the period of the last 30 years I should say that our institutional records are perpendicular. If you look up the records of any of our institutions in this country over such a period, you will find a record of a case when it came in, the number of weeks, months or years that the patient remained there, and whether the patient died, was cured or had left the institution; but those records do not link up with the condition of that patient for three months, six months or two years after the patient left the institution, and I think that if our institutional records were to be carried on to a further stage and if there were, say, a six-monthly report back on the patient, after his return to his home, and if the record were continuous, more attention would be given to the standard of living in the patient's home after his or her discharge from the sanatorium.

Now, the Parliamentary Secretary dealt with the machinery which exists throughout the different counties in this country, such as the tuberculosis dispensary, the tuberculosis staffs, the medical officers of health, the nurses, and so on. In my opinion, for a little country such as this, that is the most unequal kind of machinery that could be considered. It is something like a patch-work quilt of the one colour. I could name certain counties in this country where, up to 30 years ago, a county medical officer of health was appointed, and who is still there carrying on his duties under various titles. He is the medical officer in connection with tuberculosis on Monday, he is the medical officer for some other disease on Tuesday, and he is the medical officer for something else on Thursday. In other words, he is the same kind of two-legged person, doing the best he can to carry on under these difficulties, but nobody seems to bother his head as to whether anything can be done to help that medical officer in the various duties he has to perform.

The incidence of tuberculosis is going up. We have a number of buildings being erected, but it appears to me that the detective or investigation machinery in the county, with a view to tracing the disease at an early stage in the home and treating it, amounts to only about one-fifth of the problem. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to approach this matter in a realistic way. Surely, the first thing to do would be to approach the problem in those counties where, through one cause or another, the local machinery for dealing with such a problem as this is entirely inadequate. If there is to be a campaign against tuberculosis, then let it be an all-round campaign. Let it be a general campaign, and not just a hysterical kind of campaign where we attack one aspect of the problem in one of its phases, then forget about it, and attack it in another way. Let the institutions grow up on a generous scale, look after the general welfare of the patient when he returns to his home, and see that there is ample machinery to deal with tuberculosis work inside the county concerned. If that were done, then I feel that we would be turning over a new leaf, and that we could join with the Parliamentary Secretary when he says that, given the machinery and the power that he seeks, he will be able to reduce very drastically the incidence of tuberculosis in this country. I do not think that the Parliamentary Secretary need have any fear that he will not get all the assistance and help that he wants, or any powers that he may reasonably require, in order to achieve that object. I rather think that the boot is on the other foot, and that the country, generally, the Dáil, and all public men, whether attached to central or local authorities, want to feel assured that the old, casual outlook in regard to tuberculosis is not going to be the outlook in the future.

I think that there will be agreement from all sides of the House on the general principles of this Bill, because of the firm intention expressed by the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with this very grave problem at long last. I should also like to pay tribute to the generous way in which he has asked that this problem should be related to outside matters, so far as public assistance is concerned. The pity is, however, as Deputy O'Higgins has pointed out, that the proposals that are now before us were not inaugurated some years ago, particularly so far as building or housing programmes, or the building of hospitals, are concerned. However, this, undoubtedly, is a step in the right direction, and I think it will be welcomed, not alone by this House, but by the country generally.

At this stage, I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether the projects we have in mind, under the auspices of the Dublin Corporation, will be affected in so far as capital charges are concerned. I am referring to two particular cases: Ballyowen on the one hand, and Ballyfermot on the other hand. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us how far these schemes are concerned. The Ballyowen project was inaugurated some years ago, and I understand that there is some discussion in connection with it, which will not be adjudged upon until July next, while Ballyfermot is the site on which the Parliamentary Secretary proposes to place his 1,000-bed institution.

I listened with very great attention to the Parliamentary Secretary's statement, and I noticed one omission in that statement—an omission which, in my opinion, is calculated to interfere seriously with the smooth working of the proposals he has outlined; and that is that, neither in the Bill nor in his statement, has he made any provision, as has been pointed out by Deputy O'Higgins, in regard to the social conditions in the home of a bread-winner who may be affected by tuberculosis and who had to go to a sanatorium. I think that that is very important, and I suggest that until that matter is dealt with the possibilities of improvement which the Parliamentary Secretary has outlined will be interfered with.

I think there is general agreement on the point that the downward trend in the incidence of tuberculosis in other countries is due more to the decline of poverty and to improved hygienic conditions than to improved tuberculosis services, and so long as we leave undisturbed those social conditions, which, very often, are the cause of 90 per cent. of tuberculosis, then I think that the programme outlined by the Parliamentary Secretary will not come to fruition in the way we should like.

The Parliamentary Secretary, and every Deputy, who has had experience of individuals going to sanatoria know that their first thought is of what is going to happen to their wives and children while they are away. We all know that for these reasons that attitude will continue to prevent early diagnosis. We set up a committee in the Dublin Corporation recently to examine that question as far as it affects the city. I am very happy to learn from the Parliamentary Secretary that proposals placed before the City Council coincide to a large extent with his proposals. The provision of dispensary clinics was also dealt with, but the corporation went further, and the House will agree that they were correct in doing so, owing to the economic conditions operating in the city. It would be absolutely futile to send people to any sanatoria, whether to Crooksling or elsewhere, unless the provisions I referred to were first enacted. In that respect the corporation committee had before them a statement showing how the problem of dependents was being dealt with in England. Under the British Ministry of Health allowances are made to dependents of tuberculosis cases. In the case of (a) male applicant and wife or female applicant with dependent husband (jointly) the amount is 39/-per week; (b) for male or female applicant where rate (a) does not apply, 27/-; (c) for dependents (other than husband or wife) aged 16 or over, 12/-; aged 14 and under 16, 8/-; aged ten and under 14, 6/6; aged under ten, 5/-. Without committing ourselves to these figures, except to the principle, we have decided that if not that scale one approximating to it was an indispensable requisite so far as the treatment of patients is concerned.

The Parliamentary Secretary may be interested to know that it is proposed to make a recommendation whereby any corporation tenants affected by tuberculosis, where the circumstances warrant it, should be relieved of rent charges during the period of sanatorium treatment. If finally carried, that is, obviously, a proposal on which the corporation will have to get the sanction of the Minister. Since the motion was put down originally a number of things have happened which show that the approach to this question is, generally, on a better basis, the most important being the very excellent statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary this evening. I think I am correct in saying that there was a real determination about his statement, indicating that at long last there was a firm resolve, as far as the Department is concerned, to tackle this question on lines which will meet with general approval.

One of the other factors that presented itself since the motion was put down, apart from the setting up of a committee in the corporation, was the tribunal, set up by the Parliamentary Secretary, dealing with the milk supply. There will be general agreement with his statement as to the causes of tuberculosis, and what should be done in the early stages. As well as I recollect, he made no reference to the danger of infection from a certain type of milk. In the City of Dublin the milk supplied is largely untreated milk and, in that state, it is definitely calculated to cause the infection to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred. The corporation propose to give evidence before that tribunal. Then there is the domiciliary scheme. I do not think it is in operation outside the city, but the House will be interested to learn that that scheme is working satisfactorily there. It provides nourishment, butter, milk and eggs, which are given on a weekly basis to patients who are certified at the local tuberculosis dispensaries. I understand that the services of that particular scheme have been availed of by 1,100 patients.

There is another small matter in connection with the operation of hospital services to which attention might be given. There is no reason why food in these institutions should not be of the very best. I am quite satisfied that so far as our hospitals are concerned that is the case, because the corporation expresses no objection whatever to the estimate to provide the very best food. As there is no question of cribbing regarding the cost, the best food should go into the various institutions. Deputies will, I am sure, from time to time hear of general complaints from patients regarding the standard of the food supplied, obviously due to a bad system of cooking within these institutions. As the result of the passage of this Bill, and of the steps now being taken to deal with the disease, I should be glad if that matter received the attention it deserves, if the food could be made more appetising, and prepared in a way that would make it more acceptable to the patients. There is also the question of the general amenities of hospitals. There is room for improvement under that particular heading as far as the general management is concerned. I believe that medical men who are members of the House will agree that improvements of that kind are indispensable to the progress of patients.

The difficulty about this motion is that it was put down 12 months ago, when conditions were far different from what they are now. There is a general improvement now in the approach to this question and I believe that the climax has been reached this evening. If there is—as I believe there is—vigorous determination behind the proposals of the Bill, it should ensure early results. While we welcome the opportunity of formally moving the motion, and having it made the subject of debate, it would be well at this early stage if we could get some advance in the way of co-ordination, which the motion indicates, and something in the nature of an advisory council for co-ordinating institutions and bodies now dealing outside the Department with this problem. If we felt that we could get an approach from the Parliamentary Secretary along these lines, broadly speaking, I think our case would be met.

Molaim an Bille seo agus cuirim fáilte roimhe. Tá súil agam go dtógfar na sanatoria, nó na hospidéil, cúig nó deich míle os na bailte móra agus na cathracha. Nuair a bhíonn ceo nó droch-aimsir ann, bíonn sé níos troime agus níos treise sna bailte móra ná mar a bhíonn sé sa tuaith. Má abrann duine ar bith go mbeadh turas fada ag na dochtúirí chun a gcuid oibre do dhéanamh, deirim gur féidir linn tithe do thógáil i gcóir na ndochtúirí in aice ná sanatoria. Is fearr na daoine atá sna sanatoria do choimeád slán ná a bheith ag smaoineadh ar na daoine atá ag freastal orthu.

I welcome this Bill. Coming from a county in which there has been an agitation for some time to take over old mansions and convert them into sanatoria, I think that I may say that the Parliamentary Secretary has done the bold thing, the right thing, and the proper thing. His proposals are miles in advance of those relating even to the best of the old mansions. I am glad, too, that he is leaving Peamount, about which I know something, for the treatment of patients from my constituency. We hear about the ravages of tuberculosis, but it is well to know about the successful treatment of tuberculosis. I have known many young boys and girls who have gone, from time to time, to Peamount and who have come home perfect cures. They have been doing hard, laborious work since then. Many other counties may not have had the advantage that my county has had. We were, I think, the first to establish a new hospital with the aid of a grant from the Hospitals Trust. As a result, we were able to convert the former hospital, which was not too old, into an institution for receiving tuberculosis patients, examining them, giving them first-class treatment and transferring them, in certain cases, to Peamount.

When the Bill is in full operation, I hope provision will be made for extension of the work at Peamount. I hope, too, that there will be a return to the industries which were carried on at Peamount up to some time ago. I do not know whether it was for reasons of economy or not these industries were discontinued, but I have seen many a good craftsman come out of Peamount and earn his living for the rest of his life from the trade he learned there. When these sanatoria are built, I hope that there will be extensive grounds attached to them where patients can have exercise and recreation and engage in light work. I support the suggestion of Deputy O'Higgins, supported by Deputy O'Sullivan, that special provision be made for the family of a bread-winner who goes into a sanatorium. The person who goes into hospital for treatment for pneumonia or any similar disease remains there only five or six weeks. With the person who goes into a sanatorium, it is not a question of weeks, perhaps not even of months, but years. The necessity for making provision for his dependents, therefore arises.

I speak now with a certain amount of ignorance as to the practice in other parts of the country but, in my area, when a person dies of tuberculosis at home, or goes into a hospital and dies there a short time afterwards, the local authority disinfects the house and burns the bedding. That is all that happens in my area. I suggest that, when a person goes into a sanatorium, that procedure should be carried out. Whether they live or die, disinfection and burning of the bedding should be carried out by the public health authority.

I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what provision is made for the treatment of tuberculosis amongst patients in the mental hospitals. Is there a special hospital or are they accommodated with the ordinary patients? The proportion of mental hospital workers in my constituency who have been affected by tuberculosis recently has been very great and I wonder if they contracted the disease from patients. Is there proper segregation of the patients suffering from tuberculosis in the mental hospitals or is it as a result of their work amongst those patients that attendants have contracted the disease? I welcome the Bill, which attacks a big, national problem in a bold way. I am glad that it has been received in the way it has been.

All Parties are agreed that this Bill is very welcome and desirable. It raises some big new principles in regard to institutional treatment about which there might be contention if it related to any other matter. But the necessity for tackling this problem in a realistic and efficient way overshadows any objection which Deputies might have to the apparent removal of certain powers of the local authorities in regard to the provision of institutional treatment. I think that the system of regional institutions is sound not only in regard to tuberculosis but, possibly, in regard to other matters. There is not very much point in having an institution, whether it be a sanatorium or a general hospital, in a town on the border of another county and having patients from that county, who may live within a distance of a mile or two miles from the institution, excluded from treatment there. The regional system is sound and ought to make for efficiency.

The Parliamentary Secretary has been complimented by members of other Parties on his comprehensive opening statement and I should like to join in the tribute to the very reasonable attempt he has made to meet the lack of medical knowledge from which the average Deputy suffers and to furnish enlightenment as far as possible. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary, as a medical man, will be tolerant of any views expressed by an ordinary layman on this subject.

One could talk a lot of sentimental slush in regard to a Bill of this kind without adding to the sum of general knowledge or contributing any useful suggestion. We all agree that the incidence of this disease is tragic because of the fact that it attacks the young, but there is no need to be over-sentimental about the matter. There is an urgent need to be practical in dealing with a problem which not only affects the lives of a great many of our people but also affects the nation inasmuch as it tears away a large section of our people from life itself and, to a large extent, from the enjoyment of life, and from doing efficient work in building up the nation. I think we are all agreed that this Bill represents a practical step forward in the direction of countering this disease. We have been told that this disease is not inherited from parents or ancestor, but is passed around from one individual to another. The fundamental object of society in dealing with this problem should be to prevent that passing around process. There does not appear to be any more effective method of doing that than by getting those who are affected by the disease into a well-run institution where they will not only be free from contact with healthy people but will have a chance of recovering. I have been reading some pamphlets about the treatment of tuberculosis in the home. I have felt that while the instructions given in those leaflets are sound enough in their own way, they are not likely to be universally complied with, no matter how far we may go in the matter of the education and enlightenment of our people. Where the disease is really bad and infectious, I do not believe that it is possible to prevent infection in the ordinary homes. Therefore, our object should be to get patients who are in a really dangerous state of health into a properly-run institution.

In connection with another Bill which was before the House last week, I opposed the idea of compulsion in regard to the removal of blind persons to institutions. There is a very important difference, however, to be noted when you are dealing with blind persons and with those who are suffering from an infectious disease. Personally, I think that if proper institutional accommodation is provided, and if the institutions are properly run, there should be no objection to compulsion if it is necessary in the case of persons suffering from an infectious disease. The compulsion should not be necessary in the ordinary course of events, but, where it is necessary, I think there should be no objection to it. There would be less need for compulsion, I think, if the suggestions of Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy M. O'Sullivan were put into operation, that is, if ample provision were made for the care of the dependents of those who are struck down with the disease. There is no doubt but that the ordinary bread-winner and the mother of a family must feel very great reluctance about leaving the home if the family is to be left in a destitute condition.

The Parliamentary Secretary appealed very strongly for the active cooperation of the House in the provision of whatever money may be required for the implementation of the various measures which will be adopted in the attack against tuberculosis. I quite agree that the Parliamentary Secretary is entitled to that co-operation, but I think that, having got it, the House is entitled to demand from the Department of Local Government and from the Parliamentary Secretary the most thorough and efficient management of all the services which are engaged in countering this disease. We are entitled to demand that any institution which is set up under this measure, or under any other Act, be efficiently run. There have been complaints in regard to various public services. We have read in the newspapers reports of public inquiries held in regard to the running of various institutions in which there was a certain amount of friction and bickering which impaired the efficiency of those institutions. I think it ought to be made clear in this House that no Party will stand for any action or inaction which impedes efficiency in the working of sanatoria or such like institutions. We ought to have an assurance that any measures which it may be necessary to take in order to deal with inefficiency will be taken. In that connection, I think it would be desirable—I am not going to say that the Parliamentary Secretary should be raised to the rank of Minister—if we had at least a Minister for Health who would be responsible to this House directly for the control of all matters relating to public health so that the House could hold him responsible for any deficiency which might occur in those services.

As far as my own constituency is concerned, I must say that the institution there reflects the highest credit on all concerned with it. It has given very fine results in regard to the treatment of tuberculosis both in its early and advanced stages and has secured a very large number of permanent cures. I do not think there is anything in the Bill which provides for the control and management of the regional sanatoria which have been set up. It may be that such provision is made in other legislation. I think the Parliamentary Secretary did not refer to it, but it is, of course, necessary that there should be in connection with every regional sanatorium a thoroughly well-informed, sympathetic and interested committee which would see that the best results were obtained from the treatment provided. I think the fact that surgical treatment can be provided in these institutions is a very desirable factor and should influence the House very much in its support of this Bill. I think it is undesirable to see patients in an advanced stage of tuberculosis brought into the general hospitals in this city for surgical treatment. I think that, as far as possible, treatment should be provided in the sanatorium itself.

The Parliamentary Secretary made a very interesting statement when dealing with the causes of the increase in tuberculosis during the past few years. Many people would be inclined to agree that the lack of some mineral in our diet may be the cause of this increase. There is, however, undoubtedly a very considerable amount of malnutrition which is due to our people at present not getting sufficient food of any kind. The prices of many essentials of food and clothing have increased to an alarming extent and people have had to cut down in regard to both, as the price eats into the income of the workers. While the price of food may not have gone up as much as that of other articles, the fact that those other articles which the workers need use up such a large portion of their income means that they cannot provide sufficient food for themselves and their families. That is a problem which must be faced and dealt with.

To some extent, changes in our habits may have contributed to the increase in tuberculosis. A person suffering from that disease has more opportunities of spreading it at present than was the case 20 or 30 years ago. Public dancing is more prevalent now than it was in years gone by and must be regarded as a factor in the spread of the disease. Young people also have more opportunities of coming together, in cinemas, dance halls and other places of amusements, than were possible in the past. This mitigates the efforts of the Department in dealing with the problem, but here again nothing effective can be done except to ensure that the people who are seriously affected and who can spread the disease are provided with institutional treatment. That seems to be the solution of the problem.

Deputies will agree that a reasonable attempt is being made now to tackle this problem in a businesslike way. The Parliamentary Secretary pleased me to a certain extent when he said it was not intended to provide very elaborate buildings erected on a grandiose scale, but rather to supply the essentials that are required. I am sure he will realise that, just as "stone walls do not a prison make" neither do concrete, steel and other building materials make a hospital. It is upon the personal attention and interest and efficiency of the committees in charge, and of the medical and nursing staff, that the success of these institutions will depend.

As the law stands at present, the responsibility of providing institutional treatment rests with the local authority; and in so far as this Bill proposes a complete departure from that principle, it is a step in the right direction. The House realises that this is the biggest national health problem we have and the Parliamentary Secretary is asking us to face it in a realistic way. We are all glad that the Department is at last facing the position realistically and we congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his very comprehensive and detailed survey of the problem of tuberculosis and its history, including the provision of medical and institutional treatment. He has illustrated, for the benefit of the House, the difficulty of the problem to be solved and has set out the means he suggests should be adopted to provide a solution.

I am glad he decided that this problem should be tackled on a regional basis. The fundamental thing wrong in these hospital schemes we have provided out of the Hospitals Trust Fund up to the present is that the problem was tackled on a county basis. Obviously, medical treatment to-day is essentially a team job, and in any institution you must have more than one type of medical officer. In a general hospital you must have a pathologist, a radiologist, a surgeon, a gynaecologist and so on. From the economic point of view, it was not possible to have an efficient medical team of that sort in a small institution servicing a county only. The whole approach on a county basis was economically unsound for that reason, and you could not possibly expect to have a comprehensive service in any one individual. In any case, it was throwing far too much responsibility on the one individual, if the medical officer for the hospital was expected to provide all the services within that institution. In the same way, you could not possibly provide institutional treatment for tubercular patients properly on a county basis. The approach to this matter on a regional basis, by providing big institutions, is a step in the right direction.

The Parliamentary Secretary has stressed the financial aspect of the problem. It is very easy for Deputies to advocate more and more social services, but if they are to be provided out of the national income, we are limited by the extent of that national income. If the helping of certain individuals out of the national income means depressing the standard of living in other homes, we may be creating new problems. That point makes the financial problem difficult to solve.

I think the Parliamentary Secretary is quite right in arrogating to himself the power in this Bill to determine the site of the institution, to provide the institution and then to hand over the control of it to the local authority. The old method of the local authority haggling with the Department, and the Hospitals Trust having some say to it, too, used to cause a great deal of delay. If we are to get rid of that delay we must empower one authority and charge that one authority with the responsibility to provide the necessary institutions. The only thing we might question in that respect is that the Parliamentary Secretary's Department has become notorious for delay and procrastination. Whether that is to be characteristic of the activities of the Department is a matter for the future, let us hope. Judging from the Parliamentary Secretary's attitude, his earnestness, sincerity and determination, I think we can hope for better things in the future. It is only right that the House should give him a chance of facing up to a problem that he has assured the House he is determined to solve.

I just missed a few minutes of the Parliamentary Secretary's very interesting speech, but I do not think he touched on the position of the voluntary institutions. I do not know that he gave the House any information as to the present state of the hospital deficits. The House realises that there are substantial hospital deficits and these deficits are appreciating year by year. From the point of view of providing other institutions in other parts of the country, that is a very serious matter indeed. We want to know whether any limitation is to be put on the amount of these deficits; whether it is proposed to set aside a capital sum of money specifically for providing an annual income to meet the growing deficits or whether we are going to draw a line anywhere. The House realises that the Hospital Sweepstakes were first instituted for the purpose of meeting those deficits. If we are going to eat into the fund by setting aside substantial capital sums for the provision of other institutions, what will be the position of the voluntary hospitals? I think the Parliamentary Secretary should make it clear what the position really is to be and what proposals he has to solve this rather vexed problem of hospital deficits. It is very hard to plan clearly, so far as the provision of capital sums for other institutions out of the Hospitals Trust Fund is concerned, while that problem remains unsolved. I do not know if the Parliamentary Secretary made it clear whether the 50 per cent. State contribution to institutions is to be continued; whether those institutions are to enjoy the State contribution.

Does the Deputy mean for maintenance?

For the provision of the institutions.

For the capital cost of buildings and equipment—no.

He made it clear that for maintenance afterwards there will be the usual recoupment made to the local authorities. I was wondering if any State assistance was to be given. It was not clear from the Bill anyway. I felt that there was no provision for State assistance; that we were meeting at least two-thirds of the cost of the institutions out of the Hospitals Trust Fund and that the local authorities would have to provide one-third of the total cost. I do not know that we can grouse very much at that. It is not a very big demand on the local authorities. Although it is a big national problem, the local authorities could scarcely hope to escape scot free without any contribution.

The Parliamentary Secretary divided the problem. First there is the question of prevention, and then the question of cure and sanatorium treatment. Of course the big problem in regard to prevention especially, where an infectious case occurs, is the question of isolation. Of course isolation cannot be provided for without the necessary bed accommodation. Every Deputy fully realises that the urgent problem all over the country is that there are infectious cases still remaining in their homes because of lack of sufficient bed accommodation in institutions. They are a menace to other members of the family and, therefore, the matter is indeed a very urgent one. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will be pressed from all sides of the House to proceed at the earliest possible moment with the erection of these institutions. I suppose that is the reason why, in Section 4 (2) the Parliamentary Secretary sets a limit, namely, the 31st March, 1948, to the time when the institution must be provided. Whether it is wise to put in a time limit in the Bill is another matter. If the institutions are not provided within that period, I suppose it means that amending legislation will have to be brought in. I can see that the Parliamentary Secretary has a definite motive—that he is tying those responsible for the provision of the institutions to a definite time limit. If that serves the purpose for which it is intended, I suppose it may be useful to have it as part of the legislation.

The Parliamentary Secretary stated that several committees have been set up to investigate the problem from one angle or the other, but he gave us no information as to whether any examination has been given to the system that I understand is in operation in Great Britain of national chest hospitals. We all appreciate that the big difficulty is the fact that people are inclined to hide this disease. It is a question of education. It will be very difficult to get over that aspect of the problem. Many of our people look upon it as a stigma and therefore they are inclined to hide it, which, of course, is fatal. The Parliamentary Secretary informed us that, taken in its early stages, it is a comparatively simple disease to cure. Of course the difficulty, even so far as the individual is concerned, is to recognise the fact that he is a tuberculosis case. As well as that, this disease masquerades under a variety of names. An individual complains that he has an "old cough"; he says that "the old cough is giving him trouble". There are all sorts of cases of tuberculosis masquerading under different names. The difficulty is to provide the machinery to get after that. A national chest hospital is an institution where all sorts of chest cases, whether heart cases or other types of cases, are sent and the stigma is removed from them because it is not called a sanatorium; it is called a chest hospital. That hospital serves to filter the cases. If they are heart cases, they are sent to another institution. It serves a very useful purpose. It is a pity that we have not heard the opinion of the Parliamentary Secretary as to the advisability or desirability of providing a national chest hospital.

There is also the difficulty that in my opinion the regulations are not adequate to deal with the problem effectively from the medical point of view. A medical officer is only bound to report infectious cases. We should make provision for medical officers reporting every type of tubercular case. We will never know the full extent of the problem or we can never compile accurate statistics so far as the problem is concerned until medical officers are required to notify every type of case and not merely infectious cases. We know that medical officers cannot take a sputum sample for examination unless the patient so wishes. If a medical officer has any suspicion that a case is one of tuberculosis, he should be in a position to compel the patient to give a sputum sample for examination.

Deputy Dr. O'Higgins referred to the inadequacy of staffs. I agree with him absolutely. Since the Public Health Acts were introduced, in many counties, for a great many years, the county medical officer of health has been responsible for the public health of the county and is tuberculosis officer; he has also to carry out duties under the School Medical Act. It is impossible for him to carry out these duties. In regard to the examination of children under the School Medical Act, he is unable to visit the school more than about once in four years. That is not nearly sufficient if there is to be proper supervision and if our detective organisation is to be effective. If we are going to spend money generously and if we are going to tackle this problem in the manner in which the Parliamentary Secretary suggests it is his intention to deal with it, we must begin at the bottom and provide the necessary detective organisation. To do that, we must ensure that county medical officers have adequate assistance to enable them to carry out their duties effectively. So far as my experience goes of the administration of the School Medical Act, it is hopelessly inadequate. County medical officers generally cannot keep an effective check on suspicious or doubtful cases.

Deputy Dr. O'Higgins directed the attention of the House to one important aspect of this problem which the Parliamentary Secretary has omitted. I speak subject to correction, but so far as I know the Parliamentary Secretary did not mention the welfare aspect, and made no reference to the need for ensuring that when the bread-winner is removed from the home he will be assured as to the welfare of his family. I understand that in connection with tuberculosis patients it is disastrous if the patient has not peace of mind. Certainly it does not help to effect a cure. There are many breadwinners who are reluctant to go for treatment because they know their families will be left in a destitute condition. That is the reason why many patients who could be cured succumb to the disease.

As far as National Health Insurance is concerned, it seems extraordinary that an agricultural worker receives the miserable sum of 15/- a week when he is sick. That organisation has accumulated a very big sum at the expense of these unfortunate people. It seems a disgrace. It is a shocking state of affairs that in a country like this an agricultural worker should be offered 15/- a week to maintain himself and his family during the period of incapacity. I agree with the Deputies who have referred to this aspect of the problem. If we are to be effective in tackling this problem, if we are to ensure results from the provisions of this Bill, we must provide for the welfare of the patients.

It is generally agreed that tuberculosis is due mainly to malnutrition, bad clothing and bad housing, although the Parliamentary Secretary has told us that the steep rise in the incidence of tuberculosis since the emergency is due to causes other than malnutrition and that it is quite possible it is due to lack of calcium in the blood. I was rather interested in that statement because I remember Deputy Dillon asking the Parliamentary Secretary a question about calcium deficiency in bread, when we had 100 per cent. extraction flour. Deputy Dillon made reference to some well-known medical authorities in Great Britain who advised the British Government as to the necessity for providing calcium to make good that deficiency. The Parliamentary Secretary assured the House at that time that there was nothing in that. Whether the Parliamentary Secretary is coming around to that point of view or not, I do not know.

Might I mention that it was not suggested at that time that calcium deficiency might have any relation to the development of tuberculosis?

It was not, at that time?

At any rate, it proves that the people who were perturbed about calcium deficiency at that time were right, if the contention of the Parliamentary Secretary now is right. I believe that malnutrition is the big problem, and I think it ought to be fairly obvious to us that the steep rise in the cost of living, without a corresponding increase in income in the case of a very big percentage of our people, must result in many of our people suffering from malnutrition.

We made no attempt to calculate what would be an adequate income to provide a balanced dietary for our people. The British Government in the Beveridge Plan have calculated the minimum income to provide a standard diet to maintain health. I suggest that that is an urgent matter here. We should set up a commission to inquire into the question of family income. Until that is done, we cannot know the extent of the problem of malnutrition. If we are to approach this problem systematically, we ought to try to discover the percentage of our people whose incomes are below the standard necessary to provide adequate diet.

Curative treatment is essential. The removal of infectious cases to institutions helps to control the disease. The patient is shown how to live when he goes back to his family. He is shown that if he takes the necessary precautions and safeguards he may prevent the spread of the infection in the home. I think we should pay much more attention to preventive treatment than the Parliamentary Secretary has outlined in his speech. Bound up with that is the question of the family income. There is a very high percentage of incomes which fall below the standard necessary to maintain an adequate dietary for the family. The Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned the Irish Red Cross, and complimented that society on its work. I think they are entitled to appreciation for their earnestness and their efforts to tackle this problem, but the House should realise that it is essentially a State problem, and must be tackled nationally by those who are charged with the responsibility of looking after the welfare of our people.

In conclusion, I think, on the whole, the House may be hopeful that the Parliamentary Secretary's Department is facing up in a realistic way to this immense problem, and that if the services and assistance of the local authorities, the Irish Red Cross Society, and the voluntary organisations generally, are properly co-ordinated, we can hope for good results.

I should like personally to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the very comprehensive and the very informed survey of our tuberculosis problem which he has given us this evening, and on the broad understanding and sympathy which were woven into that review. I think the Parliamentary Secretary has indicated by his speech this evening that he has a thorough understanding of our difficulties. I think the most commendable portion of his speech was his declaration that he was determined to leave no stone unturned to provide the necessary machinery to enable us to grapple with the dreaded scourge of tuberculosis. The programme which he indicated this evening was, in my opinion, a very commendable one. My only hope is that the Parliamentary Secretary, by an intolerant attitude on his part towards anybody who endeavours to impede the operation of his plans, will be able to ensure that the programme which he has set himself will be accomplished in the shortest possible space of time. I think one of the wisest decisions underlying the Bill, and one of the most desirable provisions that could be made in regard to sanatoria for the treatment of tuberculosis patients, is the provision that the State, as the central authority, will initiate the proposals for the establishment of those sanatoria. I have had painful experience of local authorities haggling, bickering and huckstering with the question as to whether such and such an old house could be converted into a sanatorium; when could the work be undertaken; how much would it cost; how many beds could be put into the place; how many nurses could be accommodated; how could the nurses be attracted to stay. While all this kind of huckstering was going on with the problem of providing suitable sanatoria, folk in the very county where the huckstering was taking place were actually clamouring for medical treatment, and dying because of the inability of the local authority to provide it. One of the best provisions of this Bill is the determination on the part of the central authority to build the sanatoria; to put those sanatoria up with the utmost expedition; to plan them comprehensively with the trained staff which is at the disposal of the central authority, and to ensure that they conform to the most comprehensive standard of construction so far as world sanatoria experience is concerned.

I do not want to waste the time of the House in advocating methods which, according to the Parliamentary Secretary's statement, have been accepted as the best methods for the treatment of tuberculosis in the future; nor do I want to waste time in urging reforms which the Parliamentary Secretary assures us will be implemented on the passage of this Bill and on the availability of materials. The one thing I should like to urge on the Parliamentary Secretary is the necessity for speed. Not only have we a very serious tuberculosis problem here, but we have a growing one according to the statistics furnished by the Parliamentary Secretary, and one which is likely to grow still further unless immediate steps are taken to grapple with the problem. We have to-day the situation—it is an appalling reflection on our past negligence—that many tuberculosis patients, some of whom are in the early stages of the disease, are absolutely unable to get into sanatoria. Not a week passes without my having occasion to endeavour to get people into sanatoria, only to be told that there is a long waiting list. Recently, I discussed with the R.M.S. of a sanatorium the possibility of having a patient admitted. He told me that there were approximately 150 on the waiting list, and that with luck my patient might be admitted in about 18 months' time. Imagine a person with incipient tuberculosis having to live with other people—in this particular case, in a small house crowded with young children—for 18 months because there is no likelihood of being admitted to a sanatorium in a shorter period. That is not an isolated case; it is typical of many others. It is particularly typical of cases in this city, as Dublin Deputies know. That sort of case shows the necessity for speed, and for intolerance of procrastination in the erection of suitable sanatoria in this country. I would rather see the Parliamentary Secretary make mistakes in the building or equipment of these sanatoria, if the mistakes were made in the commendable desire speedily to provide otherwise suitable sanatoria for patients, than that we should make the fatal mistake of allowing people to die for want of skilled medical attention in sanatoria.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the Newcastle Sanatorium, County Wicklow. As the Parliamentary Secretary knows, that is one of the oldest established sanatoria in this country. I think, however, it suffers from the imperfection that it is really a limited liability company. It is not a municipal hospital, and is not at the disposal of the local authority either in the county in which it is situated or in any other county. The Newcastle Sanatorium has rendered very valuable service to the tuberculous population of this country. I know, from personal experience of its work, that the resident medical superintendent, the medical and nursing staff, are only too anxious to do everything they possibly can for the alleviation of the distress of tuberculosis sufferers who are patients there, but there are very definite limits to what they can do. First of all, their grounds are inadequate for future development. Secondly, the funds at their disposal are insufficient to enable them to carry out the programme of development which they have in mind, and which they are most anxious to tackle. If the place were a public hospital, it would be possible for the sanatorium authorities to acquire additional grounds compulsorily in order to extend the scope of their activities. Not being a public hospital, apparently they must buy land in the ordinary market. If a person who has suitable land adjoining the sanatorium makes up his mind that he is not going to sell that land, apparently there are at present no means by which the sanatorium authorities can acquire it. If the person knows that he has the most suitable land which the sanatorium can acquire, and wants to charge a fancy price for it, and, in its efforts to provide additional accommodation for the treatment of tuberculous patients, the sanatorium authority decides to buy it, it can only get it by paying any ransom which the owner of the land demands. I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should examine the position there with a view to seeing what can be done speedily to relieve the land difficulty which exists there and, on the other hand, to see what can be done in the way of making funds available for the Newcastle authorities with a view to seeing how far and how speedily they can develop their plans because the development of the plans there seems to me to be possible of earlier achievement than the establishment of new sanatoria in other places throughout the country.

The Parliamentary Secretary told us that he was most anxious to have this scheme of mass radiography introduced here and hoped to be able to get the equipment for it. In those countries where mass radiography has been adopted as a method of discovering the existence of tuberculosis, it has not only been a success but, where it was introduced on a small scale, efforts were made to have the use of it widely extended. In Great Britain at present the British authorities have acquired certain small x-ray equipment under the mass radiography scheme and this is being tried on staffs in a Civil Service Department. At first the range of operation was limited but so popular was the scheme that demands were made for the use of mass radiography methods in other departments. It is quite clear from the reception which the scheme has had in Great Britain that there will be a growing demand for the national utilisation in Britain of a scheme of mass x-ray. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us whether the mass radiography plan which he has in mind contemplates the utilisation of small x-ray units of a mobile character which can travel from city to city, town to town or village to village so that we can have an x-ray of the entire population and in that way discover where are the centres of the disease and where exactly the problem is most acute.

The equipment is not available at present.

I am clear on that. I was anxious that the Parliamentary Secretary should tell us, when he can acquire the equipment, does he contemplate a situation in which mass radiography will be utilised in the large cities or does he contemplate the extension of the scheme to provincial towns and villages by getting mobile units which will x-ray the entire population?

I am hoping to reach that position.

I should like that statement to go on the records and into the Press so that people may have an idea of the comprehensive plans which are on foot for the treatment of tuberculosis. In Great Britain it has apparently been found useful, and from a medical point of view profitable, to establish what has been described as a tuberculosis register. It seems to me that if you are to make any effective plans for after-care treatment in this country, it will be essential to have documentary records of tuberculosis patients. In Great Britain they have got that by the establishment of what is known as a tuberculosis register which enables them to know whether the patient was in a sanatorium, what treatment he has received, what was his state of health on admission and discharge, and what are the family circumstances. In that way the after-care associations and local authorities are enabled to keep in contact with the patient afterwards.

I did not gather from the Parliamentary Secretary's statement that he was contemplating establishing a tuberculosis register here, but it seems to me that any efficient scheme of after-care treatment must take cognisance of the necessity of keeping a record of tuberculosis patients and extending to them from time to time such assistance and such medical and surgical aid as may be necessary until such time as they are certified to be completely cured. The Parliamentary Secretary told us that the establishment of four sanatoria throughout the country was contemplated.

Three new sanatoria.

Three new ones and the utilisation of an existing sanatorium. He told us that that proposal would be supplemented by the establishment of sanatoria under the Bill, the administration of which would subsequently be assigned to local authorities. There is one feature of sanatorium treatment that I think is important and that is the position of the patient who is either unable to pay or, if he has to pay something, can only do so by stinting himself and the remaining members of the family. I think that there should be in our executive and administrative legislation, dealing with the admission of patients to sanatoria, a definite bias in favour of permitting a patient to get free treatment or treatment as free as it is possible to give the patient having regard to his financial circumstances. No person should be required to go into a sanatorium and be compelled to make a contribution which can only be paid at the price of the patient or his family making heavy sacrifices. Unfortunately that is the position to-day in some instances. I have personal experience of these instances myself. I know that were it not for the humanitarian outlook of certain organisations many of the patients would be quite unable to pay the charges which they have to pay in certain sanatoria to-day.

One matter on which I should like to lay special emphasis in connection with the Bill is the necessity for providing for the tubercular patient whilst he is either undergoing treatment at home or whilst he is a patient in a sanatorium. I did not gather that any specific provision was being made for such persons in future from the statement which the Parliamentary Secretary made. If the Parliamentary Secretary indicated that provision was to be made, I think the fact was indicated in very few words. My recollection was that the Parliamentary Secretary made no mention of the matter at all. I happen to be connected with an organisation which has a deep interest in the treatment of persons suffering from tuberculosis. From time to time I visit sanatoria where some of these patients are undergoing treatment. The overriding worry on the part of these people is how they are going to provide for their wives and children. I have seen a patient detained in a sanatorium in circumstances in which his total income was only 10/- or 12/- a week and when he had a wife and four or five children at home. One can imagine the problem for the man in the sanatorium trying to recover from a disease like tuberculosis, where cheerfulness of mind is an essential aid to recovery, who knows that his wife and children are at home in a position in which they are not able to buy food, to pay rent, to pay the grocer, or to get boots and shoes for the children. I suggest that you cannot have really effective sanatorium treatment where you have such circumstances, where the bread-winner is incarcerated in a sanatorium and compelled to dwell in his leisure hours for six or 12 or 18 months on the horrible ordeal which his wife and children are enduring because of the fact that the bread-winner is taken away from them and that they have no source of income of a kind adequate to maintain themselves.

I came across a case recently which does not show the State up in a very creditable light. It was the case of a postman with a wife and six children. As a result of contracting tuberculosis, he went out on sick leave. After the first six months his pay was reduced from the full rate to half, and after 12 months he was paid at his pension rate. The State gave that officer 11/- a week to keep himself, in a sanatorium, and his wife and six children at home. Could you get a worse example than that of indifference to human suffering? That man's rent was 15/- a week. They did not care whether it was 55/-. They simply said to him: "That is all you are entitled to under the Superannuation Act—11/—and that is all you will get. You can stay there as long as you like. We have finished with you so far as giving you further assistance is concerned."

There are firms in this city and they treat their employees far better than that. There are city firms paying full wages to employees who are in the same sanatorium. The State, with all its resources and its ability to impose taxation on everybody, can pay an unfortunate person stricken with tuberculosis and compelled to remain out sick with it for over 12 months, only 11/- a week. Were it not for the generosity of the man's colleagues, his wife and six children would be in the workhouse to-day. The State does not care. The officials have a ready reckoner; the unfortunate employee gets all he is entitled to under the Superannuation Act—he gets that and no more.

The Parliamentary Secretary's good intentions in a matter of this kind do not square too well, do not fit in too smoothly, with a situation of that kind. One of the first things the State ought to do is to set a good example by recognising that so far as the detention of persons in a sanatorium is concerned, there ought to be adequate provision made for those persons and their wives and children. I would like to see the whole scheme put on a national basis and allowances paid to tubercular patients—pensions on a national scale. The British people have long left us behind in this matter. In that country allowances are paid to persons who are suffering from tuberculosis and who are undergoing treatment at home or in sanatoria. These are described as maintenance allowances. They are non-contributory in character and apply to persons, whether insured under the National Health Insurance Act or not. They operate from the time a person leaves work until he or she is restored to full working capacity.

These allowances fall under three headings: maintenance allowances payable without any means test, and these include an allowance for dependents and a separate allowance for rent and rates; then there are discretionary allowances intended to assist in meeting exceptional commitments, such as hire purchase payments, insurance, and commitments of that character; and then there is the third type of allowances under which special payments are made in certain specified cases which do not fall under the heading of maintenance or discretionary allowances.

If you look at the scale of allowances you will find that a patient undergoing treatment at home, if he is a married man with a wife only, gets 39/- a week. If he has two children of 16 years of age or over he gets 12/- for each of the children, or 24/- for both every week. If he has two other children, 15 years of age or so, he gets 8/- a week for each of them. In all, a man in Great Britain undergoing treatment for tuberculosis at home gets 39/- for himself and his wife and 40/- for the maintenance of four children, or a total of 79/-a week. Provision can also be made for a rent allowance and a rates allowance, and additional provision can be made for meeting, if the family circumstances so require, commitments such as hire purchase and insurance.

If a person is undergoing treatment in a sanatorium in Britain he gets the same allowances as those which I have indicated, less 10/- a week. If the wife happens to be a patient in a sanatorium, provision is made by which an allowance can be given for the purpose of providing her with domestic help during her absence in a sanatorium. It is worth noting here that the allowances for those undergoing treatment for tuberculosis at home are paid while the person is waiting at home to go into a sanatorium and it is also paid during convalescence at home for a period of six months after leaving the sanatorium. In fact, it is paid for a year afterwards if a person is not able to work or even do part-time work.

When this scheme of allowances was introduced in Britain in 1943 there was widespread complaint that it did not go far enough; that there were certain imperfections in it, inasmuch as it did not apply to wholly incurable people, and it was suggested that the allowance for people having low rates of pay, such as young persons, ought to be more comprehensive. In 1943 that scheme of allowances was introduced in order to assist people suffering from tuberculosis. I have no doubt that it will advance rapidly from its present position in Britain. Up to this we had not even begun to think about it. In this country the position seemed to be that a person was all right when he was in a sanatorium and no attention at all was paid to his wife and children at home.

If we are to eradicate tuberculosis, we shall have to take cognisance of an important psychological side of the problem, and that is keeping the patient in a state of cheerfulness, aiding him and encouraging him to recover from the disease and encouraging people to report the existence of the disease so that proper treatment can be carried out. A person suffering from tuberculosis will not be prepared to report it so long as he knows that going into a sanatorium will be coincident with his wife and children going into a state of penury. If we want a person to report that he has tuberculosis and that he is prepared to undergo treatment, then we shall have to say to him: "Your wife and your children will not suffer because you are undergoing treatment in a sanatorium." He knows that at the present time they will suffer and the result is that he determines to carry on, hoping he will be cured at some time, hoping that it will be a long, long time before there is a visit from the undertaker, hoping against hope that something will happen to prevent his dying too soon. It is because of the circumstances in this country at the moment that a person is reluctant to report the existence of the disease.

I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should make his proposals with regard to the reporting of tuberculosis more acceptable by providing for the payment of allowances to those undergoing treatment either at home or in a sanatorium. Such a scheme would encourage them not merely to report the disease, but would go a long way towards securing their recovery. They will have the knowledge that they and their families will not suffer through disclosing the existence of tuberculosis.

I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary that there is abundant need for propaganda and education on this important question of tuberculosis. There is the most abysmal ignorance and superstition in the Irish people about tuberculosis. One would think that tuberculosis was like leprosy or worse. What we have to get over, what we have to combat in this country, is that type of superstition which imagines that the whole family name, honour and reputation and the sanctity of the entire home are lost simply because some member of the family is stricken with tuberculosis. Not only is it important to detain in sanatoria people suffering from tuberculosis, but it is more imtant still to detain for some type of compulsory education those chronically ignorant and superstitious people who imagine that the whole family fortune and reputation are destroyed because John or Mary gets tuberculosis.

I regard that as the height of nonsense and intelligent people should be intolerant of that mentality. We have to inculcate in our people the knowledge that tuberculosis is just like any other disease with which the human body is likely to be afflicted. We must make it clear to these people that tuberculosis is a disease which is likely to affect anybody and everybody, irrespective of vocation or status. It is true, of course, that tuberculosis is a disease which has an economic background, and it is true, too, that it affects, in the main, persons who are living in overcrowded housing conditions, and whose diet is such that it does not give them the means to resist the disease. If we are to induce people to be frank and to report the disease, we have to expose, by ridicule, if necessary, the type of mentality which believes that the family reputation is in any way sullied because a member of the family happens to develop tuberculosis.

I thought a good deal of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech and I hope it will get wide publicity. On the question of propaganda for the treatment of tuberculosis, unfortunately very little is done in an intelligent or well-directed way, towards enlightening the public on the steps to be taken for facing up to the problem and for avoiding the possibility of being stricken with tuberculosis. It is true that from time to time one sees articles on the subject, but there does not seem to be any co-ordinated plan of giving to the citizen, in a simple and easily understood manner, the authoritative viewpoint of a medical authority on tuberculosis—its diagnosis, its treatment and the steps to be taken to avoid, so far as possible, the risks of infection.

One of the most commendable articles I saw recently was in the December issue of the Red Cross Bulletin, but I imagine that that journal has a very limited circulation and that article would not in the long run be read by very many people. I think it deserves to be read by very many people inasmuch as it poses the superstitious views of many Irish people on the question of tuberculosis, and medically and mathematically demolishes these superstitious conceptions. Certain people have access to that particular bulletin, but quite a considerable number of people, who are threatened with or who have tuberculosis, have no means of seeing it. I only hope that folk of that kind can manage to get a copy of the bulletin, so that they may be encouraged to fight the disease afflicting them and make an effort to assist the medical and surgical staffs to eliminate the disease.

The article in question poses the question: Is the Irish climate responsible for tuberculosis? I think everybody in the House has heard from time to time people say: "Oh, it is the damp climate in Ireland. You could not escape it in a country where there is so much rain". This article poses that question and deals with the issue in this way:-

"Tuberculosis is often regarded by the people of this country as an inevitable factor in the lives of the population. All arguments are completely shrugged away with the statement: ‘It is the damp climate'. This belief is, like so many legends about tuberculosis, almost completely without foundation."

It then goes on to say:-

"Ireland's average rainfall is 39 inches per annum as compared with 36 for England and 49 for Scotland. In England, where the rainfall is similar to ours, the tuberculosis death rate is less than half of ours and, Scotland, with a significantly higher rainfall, has a lower death rate than Ireland."

It then adds, and this should demolish the contention of the rainfall authorities:-

"Parts of India and Assam with a mean annual rainfall of over 490 inches have no appreciable tuberculosis problem at all."

Further on, it refers to the magnificent sanatorium at Midhurst in England and says:-

"Midhurst, where there is one of the most important sanatoria in Great Britain, has a rainfall of some 50 per cent. greater than Dublin."

I have often heard the contention advanced by lay authorities on tuberculosis that it is the rainfall which is the curse of this country, so far as tuberculosis is concerned. I think an article of that kind deserves a wide circulation, and I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that some steps ought to be taken to produce a brochure on the question of tuberculosis, on its diagnosis, treatment and steps to be taken to avoid the disease, to avoid risk of infection, and that, as a beginning, this brochure might be handed out by the tuberculosis medical officers to the people, who ought to be made to read and learn it like the Catechism, so that they will be encouraged to take every possible step—they being the weakest section of the population on the tuberculosis front—to live up to the advice contained in it.

It should not be difficult to distribute these through the county medical officers of health dealing with tuberculosis cases and through the dispensaries in the cities and towns. We would get an informed opinion on the necessity of dealing effectively with tuberculosis among a section of the population which, as we all know, is the section from which further extension of the disease is likely to come. I want to close by repeating that the Parliamentary Secretary's statement was a comprehensive one, which displayed a wide knowledge of the problem and sympathy with the suggested remedies. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will not permit the official machine, the niceties of official procedure and the necessity for keeping the official files right to interfere with the urgent necessity for providing the country and the tuberculous population with effective sanatoria.

I understand we are discussing, not merely the measure before the House but a Private Deputies' motion——

Private Deputies' motion No. 4.

——and while I regret that a decision should have been taken to discuss the motion this evening, because, on its own, it would have given a better opportunity for discussing this scourge, it is a good thing that we should get some opportunity of dealing with it at an early stage. So far as the Bill is concerned, I propose to leave it.

It is good, as far as it goes, but I want to thank the realist who drafted it for showing just how far it is intended to go. It is called the Tuberculosis (Establishment of Sanatoria) Bill, 1945, and we are told by the Parliamentary Secretary that it is proposed to establish three more sanatoria. Now, to anybody who is interested in this matter, it would be expected that something more should be done, and it must have struck with horror, particularly those who had read the reports of the various medical officers of health throughout the country—men who have studied this problem and who have given their considered opinions about it— that nothing more should be proposed. I suggest it is a terrible thing that, in view of all these reports and considered opinions of competent authorities, nothing more should be proposed than is contained in this Bill—the establishment of a few more sanatoria. It is as much as to say, to anybody interested in the prevention of crime, for instance, that the only thing to do is to provide a few more prisons or Borstal institutions. The outstanding fact in connection with this problem is the conditions under which our people have to live, as has been mentioned on many occasions. In that connection, I wish to give a quotation from a meeting of the Trade Union Congress, where the relationship between wages and the cost of living was set forth. That was in July of last year. The gist of that report was that although the cost-of-living index figure had increased by 71 per cent. since 1939, wages had increased by only 9 per cent. Now, the situation has advanced a little bit, along both fronts, since that report was published, but that proportion still holds good, and there is now a difference between the cost-of-living index figure and wages of about 60 per cent., which means that a pound now buys somewhere about 10/- or 11/-of what it could buy in 1939. I often wonder what would be the position of anybody who came into this House in 1939 and proposed that all wages should be dropped by 30 per cent., particularly if the medical authorities were to say: "If you do that, you are going to have a magnificent spread of tuberculosis throughout the country". We did that, however, if not in a direct way, at least in an indirect way, and we can see the results that have followed from it. As I have said, I have followed up the reports of the various medical authorities in this country for months past. I have one very striking comment that was made by the medical officer of health at a meeting of Muintir na Tíre, in St. Kieran's College, Ardee, on the 20th August, last year, which is as follows:

"The stark naked, cruel truth appears to be that half of our people are in varying degrees starving."

He went on to say that there was a marked failure in the stamina, energy and fertility of the people, and that the low marriage rate and falling birth rate were in themselves symptoms of decay. He continued:

"Since the war, their standard of feeding had gone down very considerably. Present wage and price levels prevented almost half their people from having access to adequate food supplies."

He then went on to say that bad management of their existing resources by large numbers of working-class families aggravated the evil, but he based the incidence of the disease chiefly on malnutrition, and said:

"Malnutrition is just a polite word for starvation. No amount of providence or thrift would enable the average wage-earner in this country to-day to feed, house and clothe properly an average family."

Another medical officer of health reporting on tuberculosis said—I only give part of the quotation:

"Those with sufficient good food, proper housing conditions, and reasonable hours of work, were much less likely to succumb to this disease."

And, later on, dealing with the matter of after-care, he stated that relapses in some instances were not surprising if one compared their home conditions, as regards food and overcrowding, with those in the sanatorium.

The medical officer of health for Dublin, reporting on tuberculosis, said that in Dublin the tuberculosis mortality and infantile mortality rates were very high, suggesting a low level of living, and it was also pointed out that malnutrition was fairly prevalent over the whole area. Another medical officer around the city here pointed out that tuberculosis was causing 10 deaths per day throughout the country and that a wrong social economy, bad housing and insanitary conditions were a contributory cause of the disease. He said that not only was tuberculosis a big medical problem, but that it was also a social and economic problem: that poverty, bad housing, malnutrition and insanitary conditions were contributory causes of the disease. A doctor from another part of the country said:

"Without modern housing, 50 per cent. of the energies used in the fight against tuberculosis were being wasted. Building houses on present lines was only providing more potential slums."

At the opening meeting of the clinical session of a hospital in this city, another doctor said:-

"If some philanthropic country could come forward and give this small island £10,000,000 or £15,000,000 I am sure it could be easily swallowed up in attempting to put our tubercular house in order."

At another hospital in Dublin, the medical superintendent reported that malnutrition was a common factor to infantile gastro-enteritis and tuberculosis, and he said that the war years had seen a notable increase in the incidence of these two diseases in Dublin and that there could be no doubt that the inadequate nutrition of nursing mothers, children and young workers was the cause of it. Again, at a meeting held in one of the universities here, another medical man said, in effect, that the policy of putting people into occupation of houses, and charging them rents which reduced their food consumption and caused decreased resistance to disease was simply madness.

Another medical gentleman, at the same meeting, said that a survey of 100 Dublin families in corporation buildings and tenements showed that 62 per cent. of the families concerned were deficient in protein, 20 per cent. on the danger line, and that only 18 per cent. had sufficient protein. At a later meeting, held about the month of June last year, another doctor, addressing another welfare society, is reported as saying:-

"Investigations which he made last year into the living conditions of 100 Dublin working-class families showed them to be in a very disquieting economic state. It would cost 77/- a week, at the prevailing Dublin prices, to provide a family of father, mother, and three children under 14 with the necessities of life, according to the British Medical Association diet scale, which, he said, was too low. No allowance was made for sickness, old age, savings, burial, holidays, tobacco, drink, renewals of linen, pots, pans, etc."

He went on to say that out of a total of 684 persons, only 170—98 adults and 72 children—were above that minimum standard; 27 adults and 28 children were border-line, while below the standard needs were 459 persons. Another medical superintendent of a hospital spoke in those terms:-

"Make no mistake about it, the root and primeval cause of all infectious disease, whether you talk about the typhus that swept the country in the 'forties, or the gastro-enteritis which decimates the infant population of the Dublin slums in our own time, is malnutrition. The children of the well-to-do do not get gastro-enteritis, just as the unhygienic progeny of the lords and ladies in the lovely squares of Georgian Dublin did not die of typhus. There is a basis to specific infection, and its name is inadequate nutrition."

Even a Dublin District Justice was moved to state that, from his experience in the Dublin Children's Court, malnutrition and poor health led to poor control of a child's impulses, and in connection with the matter about which Deputy Norton has been speaking, one man who had suffered from this disease wrote his experiences to one of the Dublin papers. His letter is as follows:-

"Like many tuberculosis patients, I have been waiting anxiously to hear if our Government is going to adopt any measure on the lines of that introduced in Great Britain and Northern Ireland to help the dependents of tuberculosis victims. My own case is typical of many. I was diagnosed 15 months ago as suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis, and had to stop work. In the three months while I was awaiting admission to a sanatorium, my wife, my five children and myself had to exist on a grant of 23/- per week from the public assistance, plus vouchers under the tuberculosis scheme, which provided me with one egg and a half-pint of milk daily and a half-pound of butter weekly, plus vouchers under an emergency relief scheme which gave us food to the value of about 9/- per week. During this time I slept in one of the rooms of our two-room apartment, and my wife and the five children slept in the other. My doctor told me to see that we all got plenty of nourishing food!

When I was admitted to the sanatorium, where I am at present, our public assistance grant was reduced by 2/-, and the vouchers given to us under the tuberculosis scheme were withdrawn. The children's allowances scheme brought some improvement, as all my children are under ten, and we qualified for a grant of 7/6 weekly. But, on visiting home last week, my wife told me that because of the children's allowances our public assistance grant had been cut again by 2/6.

At present I am very well fed and comfortably lodged in a sanatorium, but how could a patient have the peace of mind necessary for recovery when he thinks of his wife trying to feed, clothe and pay rent for six people on 26/- a week, plus a few vouchers? How could children fed on this allowance be expected to build up resistance against tuberculosis and other diseases? If I were living in Northern Ireland, my family would receive 54/- per week under the new scheme, plus rent, plus 3/6 weekly for fuel, plus whatever instalments were due on hire purchase agreements and life insurance policies."

On reading that letter, another man gave details of a case which is fairly typical. He said:

"Sanatorium patients have been known to get out of their beds at night, and to pace up and down the wards almost driven frantic by worry about their poverty-stricken wives and children. Malnutrition, bad housing, and insufficient clothing, arising from lack of means, have caused relapses in some who had been discharged in good health from sanatorium, and others have been forced by financial difficulties to leave hospital prematurely, and to return to their former unsuitable employments, in which they have inevitably relapsed."

Speaking at a meeting of the medical society of one of the universities, at which a professor of medicine read a paper on "Social and Preventive Medicine", one speaker said that one of the most tragic things in life was to see men die of a preventable disease. He continued:

"No less terrible was it to suspect that the best possible curative treatment might not be freely available for the poorest amongst us. An efficient large-scale expenditure undertaken to diminish the spread of tuberculosis would more than repay itself in 20 years in a monetary and a social sense."

Two doctors also spoke on that paper, and one said:

"In the field of social medicine nutrition must be considered of paramount importance. It was absurd that malnutrition should exist in any section of society here; yet, if they went to any clinic in Dublin or inspect any primary school they would find rickets or anaemia. Urging the need for better housing, he said that in Dublin alone 70,000 people lived in tenements or basements, 10,000 of which had been condemned as unfit for human habitation."

Another doctor, who is a specialist in tuberculosis, said:

"The eradication of tuberculosis would cost over £1,000,000 a year. If they wished to do that they would have to go short of luxuries. At present they were just ‘jogging along', preventing the problem from getting out of hand—getting people in when they were dying, curing an odd one, and prolonging the life of others. This was costing about £500,000 a year and at the present rate that might go on for ever."

In that connection I was interested to read an account by the assistant school medical officer in Dublin reporting a definite increase in malnutrition among school children, especially in rural areas. She added:

"Long journeys, the long fast and ultimate fatigue left them so tired in the afternoon that only the most robust had any inclination to eat the meal prepared for them."

About the same time it was reported to the five school attendance committees that 8,700 children were unable to attend school because they had no boots and, of these 4,308 are also without suitable clothing. I could multiply these examples. Day after day the papers contain records of medical officers of health on this subject, and the Parliamentary Secretary comes here now with a Bill for the establishment of two or three sanatoria. As long as there is a policy of paying a man who used to get £3 a week, a sum reduced in value to 30/-, there is going to be an insufficiency of food for his family and we must be prepared for the results of malnutrition. At my own University the Minister for Supplies, the man responsible for the standstill Order, boasted one night that so much of our produce went to England and complained that that policy had not got the favourable comment it deserved—possibly for the reason that it had not been clearly explained why it was a good policy.

He said at the end that it must not be thought that we sent so much produce, butter, eggs and milk just for the sake of those we sent them to, because we do not scale or measure these by our people's capacity but by their difficulty in purchasing more of these products at prevailing prices. The matter has now become so serious that Deputy Norton has referred to the booklets circulated by the Anti-Tuberculosis Section of the Irish Red Cross Society. I take one or two extracts from these booklets. One says:—

"It has been emphasised that the best way to fight tuberculosis is to give the body sufficient power of resistance. This can be done by eating the correct foods, the foods, incidentally, which we produce ourselves in this country, milk, cheese, butter, eggs, meat, potatoes and vegetables."

We have the best possible situation here to meet any attack of tuberculosis. We produce good protective stuff. Another paragraph says:-

"It has been calculated that between 30,000 and 40,000 people in this country have tuberculosis in a form which is serious or which may prove serious if neglected."

It goes on to deal with the various types of cures, the best being rest.

"Rest includes not only normal physical rest which a healthy person must take; it includes rest in a complete sense, rest of mind as well as of body."

It takes up that phrase at a later stage and continues:—

"The phrase ‘rest of mind' covers a number of very difficult problems. The patient who has hitherto led an active life may find his enforced idleness very irksome. The visitors to a sanatorium are often amazed at the apparently healthy condition of the patients. The doctor, however, is not deceived by the external appearance; he judges by the internal picture which the x-ray reveals to him. So far as possible the patient's mind should be kept occupied and free from worry. Unfortunately, a great deal of our sanatorium cases are people who have family responsibilities. A man is not likely to derive maximum benefit from his sanatorium treatment, if he is all the time conscious that he has at home a wife and family, trying to struggle on without the wages he would normally be earning for them. The mother may be worried about her young children, who have also to be left at home, perhaps unattended, and the consciousness of these things often prevents tuberculous patients from availing of sanatorium treatment."

The second bulletin, having stated that bad housing and overcrowding were two things which have to be related very frequently, states:

"It is necessary to insist, however, that improved housing without increased income to meet increased needs for food, rest and transport, may so reduce the standard of living in these respects that the population will be in a worse position with regard to the danger of tuberculous infection. In our towns, large families of the labouring class are always on the verge of nutritional deficiency, particularly in times of unemployment, and no improvement of housing will compensate for a diminished food supply.

Malnutrition affects the course of the disease. It is of the utmost importance to ensure that every man, woman or child, who is primarily infected with tuberculosis, shall have adequate nourishment if the disease is to be arrested at that stage. When the quantity of food falls to seriously inadequate levels, the death rate from tuberculosis always goes up steeply."

Having taken an example from Germany, this comment follows:

"It is possible that the remarkable rise in the urban tuberculosis death rate in Eire from 142/100,000 in 1939 to 189/100,000 in 1942—i.e., 33 per cent.—is due to the inflationary rise in prices which has occurred during that time.

Why is the rate falling at present?

I shall leave that to the Parliamentary Secretary to explain. I ask him to give his explanation to the Irish Red Cross Society, so that they may publish it as a corrective to that statement. At all events, that is what they published. It is not the only thing they published. Their biggest bulletin is headed "Tuberculosis and how to prevent it." It opens with the statement that tuberculosis is increasing. It speaks of the deaths from tuberculosis. It states that tuberculosis causes 64 out of every 100 deaths among young Irish people of from 15 to 25 years old and that each of these young sufferers infects nine people on an average with the dread disease. This bulletin, written by a very eminent doctor, tells us:

"The most important factors in the development of the disease after infection are, without any doubt: malnutrition, over-exertion and bad housing, in that order. Malnutrition is, undoubtedly, the most important of these three. If you eat enough and if you eat the right foods the danger of developing serious tuberculosis is immensely diminished, even if you become infected."

Later, this bulletin states:—

"The remedies are: prevention of infection, protection of the young with good food, proper ventilation of all work and recreation centres, especially for young people, and the provision of adequate housing, especially for large families. It will be seen that these last three measures fall into line with the desiderata for a sound social system, so that it may be said that the anti-tuberculosis movement would serve as the beginning and the core of wise social progress on the lines laid down by the Papal Encyclicals."

In another bulletin published by the Red Cross, there is a report of a meeting in Athlone at which a local medical officer said that "There was a plague of tuberculosis, and his colleagues on the platform would corroborate him when he said that the incidence of tuberculosis was showing an alarming increase. From his experience in Mullingar hospital, he could say that the numbers affected by tuberculosis were going up by leaps and bounds." The county medical officer of health, who spoke next, said that "The statistics showed that the disease was getting beyond control."

That is the picture. Most of the men who have spoken have attributed the increased death rate from, and the increased incidence of, tuberculosis to malnutrition. It is quite clear that unless our people were being much better fed than was necessary for health purposes before 1939, they must be getting inadequate feeding at the moment. If people were only getting what food they could afford to buy previously with a wage of £2 or £3 a week, and if that wage is now reduced to £1 or £1 10s., it is quite clear that, unless they have been able to save in some other way, the amount they are now able to spend on food must be considerably reduced. Look at the figures which are bulked to give us the cost-of-living index figure and see whether there is an opportunity of saving on any of the other things which these people must buy. If they are not able to save in this way, is it not the definite conclusion, the conclusion borne out by all these quotations, that some people here are not able to withstand this disease because they have not the resisting power that would be afforded them by proper food?

If the Parliamentary Secretary wants any other statistics on that matter, let him look at the report of the Housing Board, published recently. The Housing Board conducted an investigation and examined statistics for many years. In one appendix to that report, they speak of a sample they took of 10,500 families in and around Dublin. They solemnly record that, for the year 1938, the family income was £1 per week or less in respect of 25 per cent. of the 10,500. When you got to the level of £2 per week, there was a 20 per cent. addition. They had even a statistic with regard to those families who were in receipt of 50/- a week and they represented 54½ per cent. of the 10,500 families. A calculation is made, I think, in that report that, where people are on a wage of about £2 with which they have to feed a family, the amount left for food, when they have paid rent and cost of fuel and other things, is 4/- per head. Think of the rates of wages in Dublin and how much can be got for 4/- per week.

That is the problem with which the Housing Board had to contend—how to build houses so that those 10,500 families, 54 per cent. of whom were receiving less than 50/- per week, could make any contribution towards what would be regarded as an economic rent. That has its reaction on this question of tuberculosis. The Parliamentary Secretary comes in at this stage of our history, when this disease has been showing such an increase as has alarmed most of the medical officers and most of the medical men who have presided over welfare societies, and thinks he is going to do something adequate by moving a Bill for the establishment of a few sanatoria. Let him do that by all means. I do not think that anybody will grudge a penny of the money required for the provision of these sanatoria. But when is intelligence going to dawn on the people who man the Government? How can they expect that a healthy community will be reared if you put a number of wage-earners and members of the salaried classes on what amounts to half-pay, that being half of what was never adequate, according to nutritional standards—certainly, never adequate in the case of the lower-paid classes—to give them such health as would enable them to withstand this sort of disease?

We are to have more sanatoria. A few more people out of the thousands who suffer from this disease or who will suffer from it are to be sent into sanatoria. They will spend, probably, a longer period there than they would in similar institutions if these sanatoria were not established, but they will still be afflicted by care and anxiety for their families while they are receiving treatment. When they leave, they will go back to the same inadequate conditions as regards food and to the same bad conditions as regards housing. The only effort we have made so far has been in regard to housing, which has been condemned because of its bad results by most of the people who have investigated that matter. Over and over again, I have seen comment by people who were amazed at the number of slum dwellers who had been removed from the slums and who were found by investigators to have crept back to places to which, it was thought, no human being accustomed to a new life in a different area, would ever think of returning. Yet, over and over again, we find comments that people went back to the unhealthy and unlovely conditions of the slums.

When the cause was investigated, it was found to be this: when you take a person on unemployment assistance or unemployment insurance, or on a small wage, and put him into one of the new dwellings, where a little extra is taken from him in the way of rent, it means that there is so much less for the provision of food for the family. The unfortunate people are harried and driven between these alternatives. They would like the chance of better conditions and better home circumstances for their families. When they go out to these better conditions, they find that their purse holds only the same old amount of money, with more demands upon it. There is more for rent and less for food. Those people see some little bit of extra hunger felt by their children, and some little bit of extra disease creeping on them. Some of them, although they do feel a little more the attack of tuberculosis, prefer to go back to those unhealthy conditions rather than stint their unfortunate children or themselves in food. Under this Bill we are going to provide a few sanatoria and get people into them. When there is some sort of a change for the better in their condition we are then going to throw them back to the old conditions in which the Parliamentary Secretary's colleague will stand by his standstill Order, so that they will not get their wages increased beyond what they were in 1939. But the same Minister has failed to put a standstill Order on prices. You cannot run together a standstill Order on wages and a standstill on tuberculosis.

That lesson has been hardly learned by the unfortunate sufferers of the disease in this country. If you standstill wages and lessen the fund out of which the sufferer is to provide food for himself and his dependents, then so far from a standstill, in the case of tuberculosis, you are going to increase its ravages. That has been the history of the last five years. The only response which the Parliamentary Secretary apparently thinks is necessary to meet that situation is to bring in this Bill to carry on. But there will be no improvement in the conditions of tuberculosis or other disease in this country until he persuades his colleague in the Government that his standstill Order was a mistake and that it should be withdrawn.

I think this Bill should be welcomed by every honest Deputy. I believe it is a step in the right direction. About 12 months ago I made a suggestion for the grouping of certain counties for the treatment of this disease, because I believed that was the only hope of combating it. My idea was that if that grouping was carried out you should have fully equipped sanatoria erected to give treatment to the people from the different areas. During the last 10 years we have been carrying on with a sort, of hole-in-the-wall equipment here and there. We had, for instance, a sanatorium in Galway. It was the best we could have, but still it was no use. What we need is the provision which this Bill proposes. The Parliamentary Secretary indicated to-day that it was his intention to have three new sanatoria erected in which there would be at least 400 beds. I welcome the announcement that one of these is to be in Galway, and I am sure that every western Deputy will join in that welcome. No matter what Deputy McGilligan may say about the causes of the disease, I believe myself that the spread of it is largely due to this, that we had not in the past enough sanatoria. We had, as I have said, a sanatorium here and there, but none of these was equipped in the right way.

As regards my own county, I have often approached the county medical officer of health about getting patients into the sanatorium. He had to tell me that there was no room for them. That very often meant that a father or a mother had to remain at home. I believe that situation contributed to the spread of the disease during the last four or five years. Even though this Bill may not be everything that we would desire, it is in my honest opinion a step in the right direction. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see that the three new buildings will be so designed that, if necessary, they can be extended at a later date. The one for Galway might, perhaps, take in patients from some of the counties in Connaught. I hope that it will be fully equipped. If it is, it will be of more value than a hole-and-corner sanatorium for the County Galway only.

As regards the case made by Deputy Norton, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see if something could not be done in the way of making an allowance for the upkeep of children and other dependents while the father, or the mother, is away getting institutional treatment. We hear a lot in this House about insurance. The tenant farmer, if he has to go away for institutional treatment, has nothing in the way of insurance to fall back upon. We have been told that peace of mind plays a great part in the cure of this disease. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will bear that in mind.

There is one class of people that has not been mentioned at all. I refer to those who will not go to a sanatorium for treatment, those who will deny that they are suffering from the disease. I agree with Deputy Norton that ignorance amongst our people causes them to think that tuberculosis is some terrible scourge, some terrible wrath on them and their families: that it is something that will be cast up to their families for generations to come. I believe that ignorance of that sort is largely responsible for the spread of the disease. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary seriously to consider the adoption of means that would compel people suffering from the disease to enter a sanatorium. We all know that very many will deny that they are suffering from it. It is not always the well-off people who do that. It is generally those who do not want it to get out that any of their family are affected with it. I would also ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see that treatment should, if possible, be free in many cases, as cheap as possible. The question of finance will cause great difficulty in rural areas. Very often you may find people spending money that they can ill afford by taking the chance that they may recover at home. They never do. The money of the Hospitals Trust should be utilised to the fullest extent for the building and upkeep of these sanatoria. The Trust was created for that purpose—for the cure of disease, and, surely, the prevention of disease is just as good as, and perhaps better than, the cure of it. The Hospitals Trust Fund should be used for looking after the disease in this country.

I welcome the provision for the building of a sanatorium in Galway, where we have a very capable and hard-working medical officer of health, one of the best in Ireland. By continuing to move in the direction we are now moving the time will come eventually when the disease will be unknown in this country. It is very easy for Deputy Norton to quote what other countries are doing, but here we have to cut the cloth according to the measure, and very often it may be a lot better for us to consider problems and to do things as best we can, without comparing ourselves with other people at all. I welcome the measure and believe it is a start in the right direction, on which the Parliamentary Secretary is to be complimented.

I have much pleasure in congratulating the Parliamentary Secretary on the introduction of this Bill. Personally, I look upon it as a real social reform in the right direction. For a long time we have been hearing of local authorities dealing with the setting up of sanatoria in various counties. Now our Parliamentary Secretary has taken the reins into his own hands and I hope he will continue to hold it until such time as this disease, which is a curse in our country, will be at least reduced a good deal.

I am delighted that Deputy McGilligan has been so converted as to speak of malnutrition in the way he did. In 1925, when he was a Minister, he did not think very much of malnutrition when his Government reduced the workers' wages and when the low-paid workers were the first to suffer. However, I am not going to deal with that matter now.

I also welcome the Parliamentary Secretary's remarks regarding the Red Cross and social welfare. Our people really need to be educated and to be told that the sooner they tell the medical officer they are suffering from a disease the better for themselves. Some of these cases are really incurable at the time they are found and the greatest difficulty throughout the country is that people will not own up to the disease and will not go near a doctor until they are on their last legs and may not recover at all. The reason I compliment the Parliamentary Secretary so much on the sanatoria is that the greatest cure of all is to remove the patient from his present surroundings and try to get him into a proper hospital where he will be specially looked after.

There is one point regarding the after-care treatment. When the patient has been 90 per cent. or 100 per cent. cured, it is just too bad if he is sent back to the same surroundings, especially to a bad house. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to impress on the local authority that in such a case the family should be facilitated in regard to housing accommodation and, if the patient had left a bad house, the local authority should try to put the patient back into a good house. Housing will definitely have a lot to do with the cure of the patient afterwards.

In regard to malnutrition, we are, generally speaking, very fortunate in comparison with other countries. As Deputy Donnellan has said, we have here to cut our cloth definitely according to the measure in regard to many things. I have had experience of various diseases and have seen many people suffering from disease, including tuberculosis, and malnutrition was not the cause of it in all cases. There is no country in the world, I suppose, but has its own problem. This is our problem at the present time and the only way we can tackle it is by wholehearted co-operation from every section of the community. We must point out to the people, to the fathers and mothers and school-teachers, that if they suspect any child to be suffering from tuberculosis they should notify the medical officer or the Red Cross officials or someone else who will bring it to the notice of the proper authority. The people should be encouraged by every means to allow their children to go to a sanatorium. By doing that, we will get control of the disease. Welfare associations for after-care treatment should be encouraged through the Red Cross as far as possible, and every publicity should be given.

Finally, I wish again to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary, and I hope that he will conduct the treatment of tuberculosis in the way he has outlined in his statement to-day.

I did not intend to intervene in the discussion, as I recognise that the measures being taken by the Parliamentary Secretary are welcomed by every section of the House. Even if belatedly, we are now grappling in a very courageous way with this national menace. I confess I was somewhat perturbed by some of the remarks of Deputy Donnellan of the Farmers' Party, who joined issue with Deputy McGilligan. Deputy McGilligan has gone to considerable trouble to compile statistics that cannot be challenged, proving that much of the incidence of the disease, or the major portion of it, can be traced to social circumstances. Deputy Donnellan appears to disagree with that point of view and holds that the disease in recent years was due purely to the insufficiency of sanatoria or lack of proper equipment in them. Deputy Donnellan represents a very important element in this House, the farming community, and I should regret if that point of view were to be taken as representing that element. I would fundamentally disagree with it and suggest that the statistics in this and other countries prove overwhelmingly that it is a social disease, mainly due to malnutrition and lack of housing, as referred to by the most recent speaker, Deputy Burke of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Those who have given time and attention to consideration of the ravages the disease is making cannot possibly afford to ignore that most fruitful source of tuberculosis—lack of suitable nutriment and suitable housing for the population, whether the population be big or small. We must recognise the unpalatable fact that we have, unfortunately, a very high percentage of tuberculosis for our population. At one time it was held to be due to our climate, but I hope that bubble has been burst. I hope the people are sufficiently intelligent to recognise that our race is sufficiently virile and that there is nothing particularly conducive to tuberculosis in our climate. We must face the fact that much of the incidence of tuberculosis in recent years was inevitably due to the lowering of the social standards of our people, the lack of suitable housing and hygienic accommodation.

At a later stage, Deputy Donnellan spoke of his hope that the people would be educated regarding this disease and I, too, hope they will be. The hiding of this disease has been one of the causes of its spread. There was an idea that it was a disgrace and a shame to admit there was tuberculosis in the family and for that reason it was often kept obscure until it was too late to deal with it.

Fundamentally, we must recognise that we are now facing this question in a generous way, and the Parliamentary Secretary has indicated in his remarks what we are prepared to do, in the way of providing additional sanatoria and the most modern equipment for a perfect study of the disease. We ought not to pour out money in that direction and still allow sanatoria to be filled with people because of lack of nourishment and proper housing accommodation. That is really the point I want to make, and it differs from the point made by Deputy Donnellan. We are told that this is a small country, and that we must cut our coat according to our cloth. Why should we start by dealing with this disease only when it has developed, when we should spend money on dealing with it in the incipient stages by providing better housing for our people, better social conditions, and suitable food and nutriment which will prevent people from developing tuberculosis, while at the same time dealing with it in the stage it has reached? That is the kernel of the situation. The steps being taken by the Government in the present measure are admirable, but they will have to have regard to the conditions by which the disease might be prevented. If these are not attended to, there will be no end to it. How can we say that we are grappling with the problem of tuberculosis when there is a shortage of 4,000 beds at present? That shortage must be attended to. On top of that, we have to take steps, by providing suitable standards of social comfort, suitable nutriment for our people, and reasonable housing facilities, to see that new cases do not occur. What ever these things cost, they must be provided.

On the other hand, when we have dealt with our patients in preventoria and sanatoria, we will have to see to it that suitable provision will be made for disinfection of the homes and for suitable treatment when they get back to their homes. I was particularly interested in the statement of Deputy Kennedy. I think he made a wise remark. He said that, in the case of death, disinfection of the house took place. Why should not disinfection take place after the patient is removed to a sanatorium? I know, and other Deputies know, that when a patient is removed from his home to a sanatorium, some of the other members of the family sleep in the bed he has left. No disinfection takes place. In that way they are inviting infection, as the bed is teeming with tubercular germs: I endorse everything said by Deputy Kennedy. When a person is removed from his home, the bed and bed-clothes, etc., should be disinfected to prevent those of the family left behind from contracting the disease.

In common with other Deputies, I welcome the advance which is being made by the Parliamentary Secretary and the Department generally in this generous measure, because I think it is a generous measure. I believe that they are determined to do the best they can in the circumstances. I believe that it is only a question of getting all the Deputies to help the Government to make it a better measure. There may be points overlooked. From my knowledge of the problem, I believe that the Department are at last approaching it on the right lines, and I think they are determined to come to grips with it. If there are omissions in the Bill, I trust the Parliamentary Secretary will be prepared to accept suggestions from all sides of the House in order to try to make this measure as successful as possible.

I have had a good deal of association with local committees in dealing with the prevention of tuberculosis for a period of over 20 years. At the moment, I happen to be a member of the anti-tuberculosis section of the Red Cross Society. I know the problem as it exists in my own county is a small one when compared with that which exists in the City of Dublin. Even so, it is very big for a county with the population of Limerick. It is much too big for that area. It is a problem which exists all over the country. The efforts of the Red Cross in dealing with this problem should be supported by every section of the community. It is largely a question of getting the people to adopt proper methods for the prevention of tuberculosis.

As to the question of after-care of patients, if I understood the Parliamentary Secretary correctly, he proposes to hand over that matter to somebody else. The Red Cross Society are doing excellent work and are prepared to co-operate in every way but, speaking personally, I do not think that they ought to be vested with full responsibility for any part of the treatment of this disease. They can help, they are helping; but it is the Government's function to deal with that matter from start to finish. The full co-operation of that splendid body, the Red Cross Society, ought to be availed of to the fullest extent; but if you give them full control of the after-care of patients, there is a possibility that after a short time, owing to lack of funds or something of that kind which may not be apparent at present, we will revert to our present condition. I think it is a Government job.

It is, of course, the duty of the citizens to co-operate in the spread of the Red Cross organisation. I am sure that the members of that organisation will give of their best, but I think I am expressing their view when I say that it is the Government's job to see the thing through from start to finish. If we establish extra sanatoria with up-to-date modern equipment so that the best possible treatment will be provided for the patients and see to it that, when they go back home, after-care treatment will be given to them, I think that the supervision and everything else should be under the control of the people who are promoting the Bill, with the help they can get from the local authorities and the Red Cross Society. I think that one of the most important matters, second only in importance to dealing with the disease in its initial stages, is the provision of suitable social standards for our people. If that is done, I believe this measure will achieve the success envisaged for it by the Parliamentary Secretary and hoped for by every section of the community.

The Parliamentary Secretary's opening statement was both informative and comprehensive. The only criticism which one might feel like making is that very little has been done up to the present. It is now nine or 10 years since the publication of the Hospital Commission's first report, in which a fairly large-scale and intensive programme to combat this disease was envisaged. Since that report was published, little has been done to deal with the matter except in so far as the local authorities and voluntary institutions continued their work. So far as the Department is concerned, with certain exceptions, the work was of an extremely limited nature. It is, however, a matter of consolation that the Parliamentary Secretary, now that he has been allocated a specific function in the Department, intends to make a definite and widespread advance in dealing with the problem. It is obvious from all reports and statistics that this disease has, if not got out of hand, certainly increased to such an extent that the Government, the medical profession, and, infact, a large section of our people have become a alarmed at the increase, and particularly the steep increase which took place during the earlier years of the war.

The Parliamentary Secretary showed that a slight decline has taken place since 1942, but, unfortunately, he did not give any particular explanation, which may or may not be available to him, of that decrease. It was pretty obvious that the increase in the incidence of tuberculosis was caused by a combination of circumstances, but, more particularly, by malnutrition, due to lack of essential foods which, if they were not in short supply, were placed beyond the reach of many in the community by the steep rise in price. Unfortunately, sufficient attention has not been paid to the question of malnutrition as a factor in the cause or spread of tuberculosis. Apart from infection or contact, malnutrition is regarded by medical opinion as being the chief contributing factor in so affecting the population as to leave large sections liable to the disease.

The Parliamentary Secretary was perfectly right in saying that if the cost which this programme entails must be met, freedom from unnecessary criticism of that expenditure is desirable. In order to arrive at that position, Deputies and the public must realise that expenditure of this kind must be undertaken now, and the necessary finances must be provided, if necessary, from the Central Fund, and if necessary from taxation. A certain proportion will fall on the rates, and the balance, according to the Bill, is to be derived from the Hospitals Trust Fund. That is one of the sections of the Bill about which I have some fears. The Hospitals Trust Fund was originally established under the Public Charitable Hospitals Act to deal with the deficits which confronted certain voluntary hospitals in Dublin. As far back as 1929, 1930, and even before that, they found themselves in the position that they were no longer able to meet their annual liabilities from the charitable public. A Private Member's Bill was introduced here to set up the Hospitals Sweeps in order that the deficits might be paid off, and, in addition, to provide a fund for necessary constructional and repair work. Certain Deputies appear to be under the misapprehension that the Hospitals Trust was founded to deal with rate-aided hospitals throughout the country. That is not the only misapprehension that some of them are under. However, the Hospitals Trust Fund was founded solely to deal with the voluntary hospitals, and later the Bill was amended to make one-third of the fund available to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to assist him in making provision for rate-aided hospitals. When that Act expired, the Public Hospitals Bill, 1933, was introduced. No provision was made in that Bill for a specific fund for voluntary hospitals and a specific fund for rate-aided hospitals. However, the Minister continued the original arrangement, and one-third of the money went to the rate-aided hospitals and two-thirds to the voluntary hospitals.

The latest report which was published in 1943 and which deals with the years 1939, 1940 and 1941, shows the fund outstanding at £8,156,320 6s. 6d. Of that sum, £6,677,898 19s. 4d. is available for the voluntary hospitals and £1,478,621 7s. 2d. is available for the local authority hospitals. The Bill under discussion makes provision for encroaching on that fund. I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary whether he proposes to mortgage future encroachments by making a large inroad now or whether he proposes to make a return of the entire borrowings at the moment or subsequently, because there is provision for one-third to be paid back by the local authorities and there is no provision whatever in respect of the other two-thirds.

It certainly is desirable that sufficient money should be made available to deal with this problem and to establish sanatoria, but it would be extremely unwise for us to allow our vision to be obscured now by the factor of the sharp rise in tuberculosis and by the necessity for making provision for dealing with the matter, if we are afterwards to have the voluntary hospitals in the position in which they were prior to the advent of the sweepstakes. Many people are under the impression that the voluntary hospitals could be maintained by the rates in the same way as are local county hospitals. These voluntary hospitals deal with a much greater population. While most of them are centred in Dublin, many people from the country come there for specialised attention. If these hospitals were to be maintained by the rates it would necessitate an increase in the rates of Dublin City and County of 2/6 or possibly 3/ or 4/- in the £. I do not think anybody could possibly sustain a case for increasing the rates above their present level. It is certainly a most important matter that the voluntary hospitals should not be jeopar-dised in their position. There is no indication that the Hospitals Sweeps will have any considerable success for some time and if this fund is raised more extensively than it has been, the voluntary hospitals will be put in the same position as they were when the sweepstakes were initiated.

I do not propose to deal at length with the necessary medical treatment. I think it is presumptuous for a layman to attempt to assist doctors in their statement of the necessary curative measures, but there are a few factors which strike me as a layman in dealing with this disease. Nearly every specialist recommends from time to time that people suffering from the disease should spend a certain time in Switzerland. It is not entirely regarded as a cure, but in certain cases the climatic conditions there are recommended as suitable for the particular type of tuberculosis. In other cases, mechanical or other medical assistance is regarded as the most beneficial treatment. While it is not possible at the moment to get to Switzerland, I wonder would the Parliamentary Secretary consider the establishment by this country of a sanatorium or hospital there, staffing it with our own medical and nursing personnel, in order that we may be able to send to Switzerland, when facilities are available, those patients who would, in the opinion of the doctors, benefit by treatment there.

The principal problem which confronts Deputies in dealing with sufferers from tuberculosis is that of rehabilitation, and much stress has been laid on that aspect of the problem during the course of the debate this evening. This Bill is a simple Bill and a short one. It deals only with the establishment of sanatoria, and I think it must be recognised by all Deputies and by many people outside that if this problem is to be dealt with properly and effectively the erection of sufficient sanatoria and sufficient preventoria is not the only method which must be adopted. Unless those affected with the disease are properly catered for by rehabilitation in the broadest possible sense, it is only waste of money to erect sanatoria or to provide medical treatment. Medical treatment does not improve the financial position or the economic position of those who are affected with the disease. Every family, or at any rate every poor family, which is affected by tuberculosis is affected also by the financial repercussions, and by the lack of essential nutritious foods, lack of suitable clothing, and possibly by adverse housing conditions. Time and again Deputies come across people who cannot pay their rent, who cannot provide themselves with sufficient food or sufficient suitable clothing, because the breadwinner or some person who contributed to the upkeep of the household is in a sanatorium, or is unable to work as a result of having contracted tuberculosis.

In England, an effort was made through the Papworth and Preston rehabilitation centres to provide suitable light work for those who had been affected with the disease, in order to ensure that they would be enabled to contribute to their own support and that of their families. A similar provision was available here until recently at the Peamount institution. It catered only for a small number. Unfortunately, that institution is a voluntary one, and the funds now available are insufficient to enable the Peamount authorities to continue to provide the light work, such as basket making and so on, which they had there. I seriously suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that, if this problem is to be dealt with effectively, we will have to realise that it cannot be done merely by providing sanatoria or medical treatment; we will have to ensure that after-care, rehabilitation, and suitable light employment will be available. It has already been pointed out during the course of this debate that the repercussions of tuberculosis are not entirely confined to the families affected. There will be a general economic effect on the entire community if those people and their families have to be entirely maintained by them. On the other hand, if suitable work and accommodation are provided, it will be possible for those affected by the disease to make some contribution. It will also be likely that a reduction in the incidence of the disease will take place. All medical opinion tends to show that the fact that the patients are worrying about themselves and their families militates severely against their complete recovery. The result is that the patients themselves are not completely cured, and very often their families also contract the disease.

There are a couple of other points which strike me in connection with this Bill. One is in regard to the staffing of those institutions. What provision does the Parliamentary Secretary propose to make? Will those institutions be staffed directly by his Department, or will the local authorities be required to staff them when they are handed over to them? I should also like to know how far medical opinion has been consulted in regard to the methods of dealing with this disease. I assume of course that the Parliamentary Secretary has consulted the medical advisers in his own Department, but on reading some of the articles by advanced scientists outside we find that one of the objections which they have to the Department—unlike objections by Deputies, it cannot be said to be put forward from political motives—is that the medical officers there are so occupied with their own work in the Department that they really are not influenced by the advances which take place in medical science outside.

I was glad to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary that opportunities are made available for refresher courses, and for scientific and other studies both here and abroad for officers of the Department, because it is a fact that, when people are closely occupied with their own work in a Department, they become slightly out of touch with the most up-to-date methods which are employed outside. I have no desire in any way to criticise the Department, but one of the people whom the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned as doing essential work at the moment is strongly of opinion that those doctors who are, possibly, out of touch with the practical side of things might welcome assistance from outside medical opinion as to the best methods of dealing with this disease, and as to the best methods of staffing and equipping those institutions.

The Parliamentary Secretary adverted to the desirability and necessity of enlightening public opinion on the treatment and prevention of tuberculosis. It is a fact that our people are notoriously prone to regard this disease as a most dreadful scourge. It is equally true that while that predisposition is there, nearly all employers, public and private, object to people who are affected or who have been affected by tuberculosis returning to work for two reasons, firstly, that an individual affected is incapable of the physical exertions necessary in a number of occupations, and secondly, because those affected are not welcome amongst their confreres due to the fact that they are likely to spread infection. If education concerning public opinion is to be complete, it is essential that suitable employment for such affected people should be made available and that employers are compelled, if it is not possible to induce them to do so, to provide suitable light work for those affected. That is one of the real necessities of this whole problem, that the public should appreciate the magnitude of it and that, having appreciated it, they should be willing to pay considerable amounts now rather than pay smaller amounts for an indefinite period. I certainly welcome the Bill and I hope the sanatoria will be established quickly, equipped as effectively and as efficiently as possible and manned by the best doctors we can provide.

I welcome the courageous attitude of the Parliamentary Secretary because I realise it is a courageous act on his part to attempt to get away from the lackadaisical ideas which prevailed in his Department heretofore. I have had experience of three sanatoria in my constituency. I remember a time when the Local Government Department heralded with great blowing of trumpets the opening of a local sanatorium. I was criticised at that time when I maintained that the institution would be recognised in time as a hospice for the dying because it was only to deal with advanced cases and because the local dispensary doctor was appointed as an extra medical man on the staff. He was supposed to be the expert looking after the patients. What has happened? It is recognised to-day as a hospice for the dying because the doctors are only able to get advanced cases. If you had 20 more sanatoria in the country, unless you are able to get the cases in the early stages you will not prevent the spread of the disease. Like Deputy Keyes, I have had 30 years' experience in connection with sanatorium treatment of tuberculous patients and, in my opinion, there are three reasons why it is not a success. The first is that you fail to secure early treatment for tuberculous cases because you have an obsolete and antiquated system of medical attendance in the country at present, the dispensary system. You are asking an unfortunate dispensary doctor who is getting £200 or £300 a year of a salary, less than what you are paying a junior official in the county council, to attend to the medical needs of 6,000 or 7,000 people. He may have to attend four or five dispensaries each week. A large number of people attend these dispensaries. The Parliamentary Secretary admits himself, as a medical practitioner, he is unable to diagnose early cases without an x-ray. What time has the local dispensary doctor with his small salary to go and diagnose cases or to give the attention that is required in the early stages of the disease either in a juvenile or an adult?

The second reason is that an adult suffering from the disease is afraid of his life to go near a doctor. The Parliamentary Secretary has referred to the establishment of dispensaries but we have tuberculosis dispensaries already and what happens? The people are ashamed and afraid to be seen going near these dispensaries. It is only the advanced case that will go to the dispensaries and they go there because they think there is some hope of getting into a sanatorium to die there.

All this propaganda by the Red Cross or anybody else will not change the views of the people of the country in regard to going to a sanatorium or a dispensary. Unless you are able to link up the medical system with the county medical officer, I still maintain that you are not going to improve the position by forcing people to go to a tuberculosis dispensary. The position at present is that you have one county medical officer of health in each county. He is called by the poor people the "consumptives' doctor" and it is only at night time, or when he happens to hold the dispensary at some distance from the area in which patients live, that they will pay him a visit.

Again he becomes aware of cases only on reports sent to him by the local dispensary doctor. The dispensary doctor will never get such a case until the man affected is unable to work and is forced to go and get a red ticket. The doctor may believe that the man has tuberculosis but it will probably take another month or two before he can have an x-ray. In our county we are in the fortunate position that although we have not an x-ray apparatus in the county hospital or sanatorium, there is one in Newcastle Sanatorium. I have had experience of cases which were taken in the early stages and in which we made appeals to the county manager that, pending admission to a sanatorium, the patients should be given dispensary treatment. These cases were, as I say, diagnosed in the early stages and one at least of these men has returned to work in the last two months. Instead of waiting to receive treatment from the medical officer, or of waiting for a bed, that man was sent to attend the expert in Newcastle and as a result of only 13 weeks' treatment, instead of the usual 26 weeks, the man was able to return to work completely restored to health.

There is then the question of after-care when patients come out of a sanatorium. Local representatives have to fight the county manager, although the Parliamentary Secretary said it was the county boards that had to be fought, to get a maximum allowance of 10/- a week each for such patients. A man may have a number of children and perhaps he gets 7/6 national health insurance. After some trouble he is given 10/- a week home help, that is 17/6 a week in all. Out of that he has to pay 3/- a week rent and to buy a large quantity of milk although in some cases we have succeeded in getting the county medical officer of health to provide him with a few extra pints of milk in the week. In regard to the question of inspection which the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned, special inspections of slaughter houses and dairies are carried out in County Dublin, but what is the position in rural and urban districts in the country? Cattle are slaughtered in places in which there is no inspection and similarly milk is supplied from places which are not subject to inspection. There is no inspection of animals slaughtered other than by a man who is getting a small salary to inspect dairies and cowsheds periodically.

I am a member of the committee of an institution where they had an up-to-date herd of cattle. The ordinary layman would not be in a position to know whether these cattle were suffering from tuberculosis or not. What was the result? Nearly 10 per cent. of the herd of cattle were certified by the veterinary surgeons as suffering from tuberculosis. In country places cattle may be sold at a good price and may probably find themselves with the butcher, but if they were suffering from tuberculosis the farmer would not know anything about it, and yet that would be a source of infection. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will have to get the co-operation of the Minister for Agriculture if we are to deal with this matter in a proper manner.

Deputy Cosgrave was perturbed over certain employers not accepting men back into their employment. There was condemnation of certain employers to-night because they refused to take back into employment men who were 16 or 26 weeks in a sanatorium. Should we not set a good example in this connection? Are the Government above criticism? Have they not adopted the same policy—refusing to accept such men back into their employment? Within the last month we had the case of a post office official who was suffering from tuberculosis and who was treated for 26 weeks in a sanatorium. They refused to take him back into the post office, even on light work, on the ground that he was not yet fit to carry out his duties. He was put out on a small pension. If that is the case with the State, what chance have we of asking private individuals to keep men in employment—to keep their jobs open? The Government who are bringing in this Bill are greater defaulters in that respect than any employer in the country.

You may fill your sanatoria. It is a great thing to satisfy the people, to give them institutional treatment, to give them the x-ray treatment which we are fortunate to have in our own constituencies. If we go back 20 years we can recollect public men talking about sending tubercular patients to Switzerland. I remember that our sanatorium committee decided to send a number of people to Switzerland. It was calculated that through the rate of exchange it was cheaper to send them there than to maintain them here in Ireland. But there is no use in sending a man to Switzerland who leaves a wife and five or six children at home and who, when he comes back, is offered 7/6 under the national health insurance and 10/- home help.

Let us recollect the conditions in the bad old British days when there was domiciliary treatment and 10/- a week by right, not by way of charity. The insured person had 10/- a week; there was domiciliary treatment for people returning from a sanatorium. There is no such thing now as domiciliary treatment. You may look for home help and depend on the goodness of the county manager. From my experience of the Red Cross I have known of cases of men and women suffering from consumption and people asking: "What are they doing with the money that has been collected?" People are saying that the Government are escaping their responsibilities because of the collections made for the Red Cross. There are many poor people who believe that the money should be made available for them by way of home treatment after returning from a sanatorium. I have had experience of Red Cross committees, and on many occasions I have pointed out the problems that will face our people in the future. There are many poor patients who believe that this money is being collected for them and that they should not be expected to maintain themselves after they come out of the sanatorium on the pittance they receive through national health insurance.

Some Deputies in a critical mood asked why this was not done years ago. I am satisfied that it is a courageous thing to do. This scheme has now been introduced, and I earnestly hope that you will be able to get a sufficient number of beds for the people who suffer from this disease, so that every effort may be made to cure them. There are many sufferers who think they cannot be cured, but I believe that a cure can be effected in many cases. I never had it myself, thank God, but I am quite satisfied that if it is taken in its earlier stages the person affected can be cured. I have never known of an advanced case being cured. Speaking as a layman with experience over 30 years, I have never known of a cure when the disease has reached an advanced stage. Deputy O'Higgins mentioned that tubercular persons have been known to improve in weight, and their condition became quite satisfactory. No doubt there are such cases, and when they leave the sanatorium their lives may be prolonged for a year or two. In this connection the after-care is an important factor, and I suggest that serious consideration should be given to it.

We might be able, with the co-operation of our dispensary doctors, after we change our dispensary system, to deal successfully with people who are in the earlier stages of tuberculosis—young or old. We are told that the treatment will be under the control of public bodies. It is immaterial to me under whom the control may be so long as they give proper treatment in the earlier stages. I do not believe much progress can be made until we change our medical system. The present dispensary system should be altered and put on a more modern footing. We should not continue the system of one man looking after thousands of people in a large area. Put him in charge of a smaller number so that he will be able to give individual attention to the poor persons provided with a red ticket instead of the fee. Leave him in such a position that he will not be dependent on the private fee. Improve the conditions so that the doctor will be able to give proper examination to the people in his area. In that way you will have some hope of eradicating this and other diseases.

So far as sanatorium treatment for advanced cases is concerned, I doubt if the Parliamentary Secretary's hope of bringing about a cure will be realised, but there is every hope when the disease is tackled in the early stage. I am certain the Parliamentary Secretary will receive general co-operation in this matter. When he makes an appeal to politicians not to attack social services on the ground of cost, I hope that his own Party will take the tip. I hope he will be able to impress that point on his own supporters. I am certain, from my own experience, that they are the first to talk about the cost to the taxpayers and the ratepayers. They are the people who say they will go one better than the other Parties in aiding the farmers, pointing out how cheaply they can administer local affairs.

I never would oppose the striking of a rate if its object is the improvement of the conditions of the people, the improvement of local amenities, and by taking that line I have been successful over a period of 30 years. I am satisfied that the narrow-minded individual who attacks a particular scheme will not receive much support from the decent-minded ratepayers. The people will not object to paying when they know that something worth while will be given in return. They are quite prepared, I am sure, to pay a special rate in order to guarantee proper treatment and proper after-care for people suffering from tuberculosis.

I am certain it can be done if we get the co-operation of all sections, including the co-operation of the Minister for Agriculture, in the matters I have mentioned. If he will co-operate with the Parliamentary Secretary in relation to these matters and compel rural and urban authorities to adopt the same provisions as are in force in the City of Dublin, it can be done, but there is no use in having these sanatoria if we allow the things which I know are happening to continue to happen. No wonder tuberculosis is increasing. While it may be attributable to malnutrition, I know of wealthy people who suffer from the disease, so that it is not solely confined to the poor. We must face facts in this regard, but so far as the Parliamentary Secretary's plea for co-operation is concerned, we are prepared to give him every co-operation. I hope that, as a result of that co-operation, there will be changes and that we shall be able to remove the fear of want from our people, and that the first result of this piece of social legislation will be better treatment for the people suffering from this disease.

I join with other Deputies in handing a bouquet to the Parliamentary Secretary for his courage and foresight in bringing forward this Bill. The Parliamentary Secretary is, I think, an optimist if he hopes to provide a hospital for 2,100 people within 18 months.

I did not say that. I said one of the institutions.

Even one institution, where the grass is now growing. I hope he will succeed in doing so. This is a unique Bill inasmuch as it is the first occasion on which a Government Department has undertaken the building of a hospital. As a member of a local authority which built four hospitals in four or five years, I have had my meed of trouble and worry with the Local Government Department, engineers, architects, contractors and all such people, and I wish the Parliamentary Secretary success, but I can assure him that there lies before him a thorny path and many a stormy day——

There will be many a stormy day for other people as well.

——before these hospitals are provided. I warn him now that his path will not be a path of roses. He and his Department will realise some of the troubles and worries with which the much-despised and contemptible local authorities had to grapple in the past in their efforts to provide these hospitals. Personally, I believe that this is the only way of providing these hospitals. Any member of a local authority who has had the experience of trying to deal with engineers, architects, contractors, suppliers——

And the Department of Local Government and Public Health.

——and the Department, and probably some of the staffs of the local authority also, will appreciate how difficult it was. None of us is perfect, but the Department will find that they gave no credit whatever to those local authorities which provided these hospitals in the past. This, however, is a new departure which I believe will be quite a success. The fact that the sole direction is vested in one body, so that decisions can be made quickly, will cut out much of the dead wood and much of the delay which took place in the past.

I believe the idea is sound and will produce quick results, if quick results can be achieved at all. I know that at the moment, in view of the shortage of all kinds of building materials, it is a question of going slowly, and, no matter how anxious and how keen the Department is to produce these sanatoria in a short time, I am afraid that unless the world mends its hand and instead of using the materials of the world for war makes some of them available for peace purposes, a number of years will elapse before we have these 2,100 beds.

I trust that when these sanatoria are completed, they will be fully equipped with the most up-to-date equipment possible. I make the further suggestion that instead of handing these large sanatoria over to the local authorities—1,000 beds for Dublin City and County and 600 beds for Cork and Galway, which will serve a number of counties—to maintain, it would be far better if the Parliamentary Secretary appointed a medical supervisor to be responsible to his Department or to some central tuberculosis authority for the proper running of these institutions. I put forward that suggestion in all seriousness.

I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will set up in his own Department a special medical section to deal with tuberculosis alone, that, instead of dealing with all aspects of public health, that special section, composed, if you like, of medical and lay men, will deal with tuberculosis, and I suggest that the medical superintendent of these sanatoria should in future be responsible to the Department alone. The raising of the funds for maintenance is quite an easy matter, on the basis of a charge by the different counties of so much per patient. The Parliamentary Secretary can bring forward a further Bill to authorise him to collect the money from the local authorities, which would be a much simpler way of doing it. If these sanatoria are to achieve the best results, they should be under the central direction of such a body, for a number of years, anyhow.

I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what is to happen to the small sanatoria which have been built in the different counties. Are they still to be maintained purely as hospitals, or are they to get proper equipment so that the medical officers of health may be helped to get an early diagnosis of tuberculosis? I want to join issue with the Parliamentary Secretary's medical advisers in relation to their outlook in the past on this whole question of the early diagnosis and treatment of tuberculosis. Their outlook was all wrong and they lagged behind advanced medical opinion, even in our own country. They refused to allow the sanatoria built out of public and sweepstake funds to have even X-ray plants. I suggest that was all wrong, and I hope that whatever part these, small sanatoria are to play in future in the fight against this disease, they will have up-to-date equipment and that the medical officers of health in the different counties will be provided with the equipment which they believe they should have in these sanatoria. I hope that the policy will be directed towards that, and I am sure once a move is made in one direction we shall have a change of policy in all directions in the future.

I have a few further remarks to make on the question of the treatment of tuberculosis. Much has been said here this evening on the question of the maintenance of the family of a breadwinner who is affected by tuberculosis, and I think it is absolutely fundamental in the fight against this disease, the first round of which is being staged to-night, that those dependent on the breadwinner should be adequately provided for, whether from State or local funds, and that a definite scale should be laid down, by an Act of this Dáil, to provide for such maintenance, whether from local or central funds. As a member of a local authority, I do not mind saying that my personal outlook is that sufficient funds should be provided by the local or central authority to maintain that family, or to provide for the maintenance of the wife and children of the sufferer, the same wage that he was earning when in good health.

In that connection, I wish to say—I have said it here before, but I want to repeat it now—that the amount of sickness benefit paid under the national health insurance scheme is entirely inadequate. Every employed person in this country is paying towards national health insurance, between himself and his employer, 1/-or 1/4 a week. I want to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary —I am quite sure that he is aware of it himself—to the inadequate amount of allowance for sickness benefit that is paid under the national health insurance scheme in this year of grace, 1945. I think it is an absolute disgrace that a contributor under the scheme, when he is sick or injured or incapacitated in some other way, should get only 15/- a week for six months, and 7/6 for the remainder of the time of his illness, which, in the case of tuberculosis, would probably be for the rest of his life. I think it is most unfair that the same amount of 15/- a week that was paid 20 years ago should be still considered sufficient, and if the funds of the National Health Insurance Society do not allow of more being paid, then I think there must be something wrong and that the State contribution should be increased, or that something should be done to see that the breadwinner, the insured person, should get a sum at least equal to what he was getting when he was in employment.

Some years ago, the National Health Insurance Society, very wrongly in my opinion, set out to spend a big proportion of their funds on the payment of insured persons when they needed hospital treatment, whether in the voluntary hospitals or the State-aided hospitals, and the result is that the voluntary hospitals in Dublin are getting a big proportion of that money. The local authorities in the country struck a rate in order to maintain those people freely in the hospitals, but the ratepayers in Dublin were never called upon to pay anything towards the cost of those who were entitled to medical treatment in the voluntary hospitals. The National Health Insurance Society came to their aid two years ago, and they are now paying a big proportion of the cost. I do not know what the proportion is, but it is a very big proportion. I want to say that those funds of the National Health Insurance Society should be devoted to the payment of at least an adequate weekly allowance to insured persons who are out of employment as a result of sickness or disease. I quite admit that that has nothing to do with this Bill.

That is right.

Yes, I quite admit that, but it is an important matter, in connection with people suffering from tuberculosis, that their families should be maintained either by the State, the local authority or the National Health Insurance Society, during the period of the breadwinner's illness, and I think, furthermore, that this House should lay down a scale to determine, from week to week, from month to month, or from year to year, what amount should be given to that family, no matter what fund it comes from. I am putting that suggestion to the Parliamentary Secretary in all seriousness.

Deputy Cosgrave mentioned the Hospitals Trust Fund, but I think he was under a wrong impression when he said that three-fourths of that money must be devoted to the maintenance of the voluntary hospitals. I am sure that he is aware that no percentage of the Hospitals Trust Fund is ear-marked for voluntary hospitals. It is a matter for the Minister to determine what proportion of that fund will go towards voluntary hospitals, what proportion will go to the local hospitals, what proportion will be devoted to the provision of sanatoria or anything else, and I am not a bit afraid that the £8,000,000 in the Hospitals Trust Fund will not be used in a proper manner or that the voluntary hospitals in Dublin will not be maintained properly, because they are abso-luely essential, and I believe that when it comes to the stage that there is nothing left in the Hospitals Trust Fund to maintain them, either the Government or the local authorities will come to their aid, because they are the key to the whole medical and hospital services in this country, and I am sure they will be maintained, whether the money in the Hospitals Trust Fund is available or not. Accordingly, I think that Deputy Cosgrave need not be worried so far as that matter is concerned.

The question of the early discovery and treatment of tuberculosis was adverted to by many Deputies: in other words, the matter of the early diagnosis of the disease. As has been pointed out here, the key to that question is the local doctor—in other words, the local dispensary doctor. He is the man who is in the closest touch with the people in his dispensary area, and who has the best opportunity of diagnosing the disease in its early stages. The dispensary doctor, however, I am sorry to say, is not getting, at the present time, an adequate salary or payment for the services he renders. I think I would be right in saying that those medical officers of health who are part-time have not received any increase in their remuneration since the war started, and I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary, who has a full knowledge of this matter, that both the starting salary and the highest salary they can reach as medical officers are inadequate. I think that the starting salary is £250 a year. In my opinion, that is altogether inadequate for a dispensary doctor, and I think it is fundamental to the success of this scheme if, as I am sure, we all have in mind the early discovery of tubercular suspects, that dispensary doctors should have smaller dispensary areas to deal with. Some of them have 10,000 or 12,000 people to look after.

I think we should double the number of doctors in such cases; that we should put another doctor into each dispensary district in the country, and I do not think the local people would object to that if they were assured of getting adequate service. I think it is necessary that the whole medical machine, so far as this disease is concerned, should be built up from the ground, so to speak, on the dispensary doctors and that they should be taken more into the confidence of the Department of Local Government and Public Health and of the county medical officers of health, because, in that way, they would work more in common. In that connection, I want to say that at the moment there is a certain amount of division which should not exist. It is apparent to everybody that there is not the amount of co-operation that there should be between the dispensary doctors and the county medical officers of health, and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take that into consideration. Dispensary doctors are also medical officers of health in their own dispensary areas, but since they are only nominally medical officers of health, although they are actually carrying out that work, they are getting a very small salary for the work they are doing.

Early diagnosis is an important factor in this disease, as without that we will not succeed in eliminating it. A good deal has been said about the effects of malnutrition and a low standard of living. While that has much to do with the spread of tuberculosis, we all know amongst families, with a high standard of living, who are well cared and well clad, there are often several members suffering from tuberculosis. It is said that only those with a low standard of living or who are in poor circumstances suffer from tuberculosis. That is not the case. It would be fatal if that idea impressed itself upon the minds of the poorer section of our people. If an examination were made I believe it would be found that 50 per cent. of those suffering from tuberculosis never suffered from malnutrition or bad living conditions. I know that as many people with a good standard of living sufferfrom tuberculosis as those of whom it can be said that they have a lower standard. The disease is not confined to any section of people. Local sanatoria should be fully equipped with up-to-date apparatus for the diagnosis of tuberculosis, and local doctors should be advised to send cases immediately to the local medical officers of health. In Europe, before the war, a system was in existence amongst large employers of labour like Guinness, by which all employees were medically examined at hospitals before being employed. As a result of such examination employees were given work suitable to their health. If it was found that they were not extra strong they were given suitable work. That system prevailed in Czecho-Slovakia where it was highly developed. I think some of the employees had to spend two weeks in special institutions where they were thoroughly examined.

It is a pity they were not put in the Zoo.

They were given work which they were capable of performing. In that way it might be possible to prevent a great many people breaking down in health by undertaking work that did not suit them. We know that there is incipient tuberculosis in all of us, without in any way abusing our health.

Would the Deputy like to have Deputies visiting such institutions before being allowed to take their seats here?

It would not be a bad idea at all. Probably some of us should be in other types of institutions. A medical test of the body and the brain would not do a bit of harm. As a matter of fact I am sure some of us would be kept there longer than two weeks. It is no harm to have a joke at Deputy Dillon's expense when he cannot hold his tongue. I wish the Parliamentary Secretary well with his proposals and I hope he will be able to produce results in the shortest period of time and also produce the £700 bed, but that is doubtful. I think he is making a very optimistic estimate when he expects to produce beds within one and a half years.

I wish to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on having presented a very lucid, comprehensive, and informative statement of the position regarding tuberculosis. I was particularly pleased to hear that it was proposed to adopt the principle, which it has been found worked best in the United States of America, and to provide in due course two beds for every one fatality from the disease, and to introduce the American system of classification for early, moderate and advanced cases. I was also pleased to hear that he anticipated, with the proper working of the scheme he outlined, that he will be in a position to report a reduction of 50 per cent. in the incidence of tuberculosis after ten years' working of the national scheme. So far so good. We heard a good deal about what the Department has done, and what it intends to do but, like the statement of other Government Departments, we have heard nothing about what it has not done. The parent Acts of 1908 and 1913 gave very ample powers to the old Local Government Board, and subsequently to the Department set up in this State, to tackle this problem, but I regret to say it was not tackled either in the British time or since the foundation of this State. The main approach to the problem, as far as our people are concerned, will be largely a propaganda one. It will be a battle by propagandists, firstly to disabuse our people's minds of the idea of the fatality of the disease and, secondly, of its alleged hereditary character. We have a national tradition, inspired to some degree by some of our poets and writers, that this is more or less a national curse, while we have very rarely looked outside this country to see what is happening elsewhere. We all know the line in the poem:

"Consumption has no pity for blue eyes or golden hair..."

We have heard of the maid that wilted far away—the maid from the foot of Slievenamon. That was an approach from the poetic angle, if you like, and inculcated in the minds of our people the dreadful and hopeless character of this disease. I am not at all satisfied that the disease has reached the proportions that would be suggested by the speeches here to-day. I think that we are very unfair to ourselves, particularly as we are holding our country out as one attractive to tourists, in suggesting that the disease is so rampant that we have to take drastic measures forthwith. The fact is that we have neglected this disease over a long period of years. We never approached this problem on a national basis. As regards the incidence of the disease, the present rate, so far as I can gather from the latest figures available to me, is 1.45 per 1,000 as against 1.09 previously. There is nothing in these figures to suggest that we have reached a crisis and are obliged to take terribly drastic action. I want to disabuse Deputies' minds of that opinion, in the first instance. Speaking from the national point of view, I think that we are unfair to ourselves in putting that presentation of the situation before the public. As I have said, propaganda will be our greatest weapon if we can get it into the homes of our people.

I do not like the suggestion made by Deputy Allen, that we should centralise our activities in a State institution or in State institutions. He suggested central staffs and central control, divorced entirely from the local authorities. If you do that and take away responsibility in this matter from the local authorities, you will immediately deprive yourself of the best weapon you have—propaganda. I strongly advocate a division of functions between the central Department of Local Government and the local authorities. Whether the Department of Local Government would be best fitted to staff these institutions or not, I do not venture an opinion, but I do say that local authorities should be made assume their responsibilities in these matters. Otherwise, the result will be that the matter will be handed over, lock, stock and barrel, to the State, and that we shall forget about it. If the State falls down on the job, we shall blame the State institutions. I do not think that that is the proper line of approach. I should prefer that the powers under the present Acts, particularly the 1908 Act, be exercised by local authorities, who would become conscious of their past neglect in this matter.

If fault is to be found regarding inaction in the past, more than half the blame must be attributed to the failure of the local authorities to exercise the power they had under the Acts of 1908 and 1913. They could at any time have found money to pay for lectures in local centres. They could have found money for propaganda without having to come to this House for special powers. I think that sufficient use of their powers was not made by the local authorities, the Local Government Board or the Local Government Department. I am merely throwing that out as a suggestion in reply to the comments of the Parliamentary Secretary on propaganda.

The House has heard a good deal about malnutrition. The Parliamentary Secretary has explained to us that malnutrition, in the technical sense, is not what the term conveys to the layman's mind. I accept his comments on that but I should like to point out that, in the report of his own Department for 1943, one of his experts on tuberculosis attributes the heavier incidence of the disease to malnutrition, because he says that the greater incidence is to be found amongst children of the working classes. If that be correct—and I have no reason to doubt it, as this expert had the figures before him—we must come to two conclusions: that the incidence of the disease amongst the families of the working classes is due to lack of proper housing and to insufficient foods of a protective character. The housing problem has been tackled but there is still a good, deal to be done.

In my own constituency, I know workmen who are living in two-roomed cottages. One of these apartments, the kitchen, is converted into a bedroom at night. There is a small room of the kitchen—not more than from 6 feet to 8 feet square—in which the family have to settle down for the night. In some cases, there is a sort of loft over that room and some members of the household have to scramble up there. There is neither water nor sanitation. The yard or garden at the back is a quagmire. The conditions in these houses are simply appalling and, no doubt, they contribute their share to the incidence of this disease amongst the occupiers. Coupled with that, you have the fact that these people are not earning a wage sufficient to enable them to keep their families supplied with proper food—food such as eggs, butter and milk, which contain a high percentage of calcium, which, the Parliamentary Secretary informs us, is so essential to proper nourishment and maintenance of health. Housing and food are the two essentials in this matter. I am borne out in that contention by the statement contained in that report for 1943, compiled by an expert on these matters. Therefore, as I say, we have got to provide, in addition to this scheme, some way of remedying without delay the appalling housing conditions that exist in the towns and villages of this State.

In addition, we have to find some way of making employers realise that in future men will have to be given a wage sufficient to enable them to provide proper food, clothing, shelter and comfort for their families. Other countries are thinking on these lines, and our Holy Father the Pope has laid down these principles in his Encyclicals. We are only tinkering with the problem by providing sanatoria—I do not care how elaborate they are or how highly efficient their staffs are— if we do not also provide these very essential conditions for our people. That is all wrapped up with the general problem of our social conditions, and, whether we like to ignore these or not, I am afraid that we cannot get away from them.

The number of patients, or known persons, suffering from this disease is somewhere between 22,000 and 25,000. The number of unknown cases is probably far greater. On the basis of the figures presented to us by the Parliamentary Secretary, he proposes to establish bed accommodation immediately for 2,500. The immediate target will be 3,400 beds, and he is advised by some experts that he will have to go as high as 7,000. I believe that he will, because some means will have to be devised by which this disease will be made notifiable.

Deputy Allen suggested throwing certain responsibilities on the medical officers. So far as I know, that responsibility is already there. They are bound to report tuberculosis if they are satisfied it is tuberculosis of an infectious character, but, mark you, they must be satisfied that it is infectious. A good many who are not, perhaps, as conscious of this problem as we in this House are, may not be displaying the energy that they should be displaying in these matters. I have no doubt that a lot of cases are not being recorded through this lack of energy or indifference or lack of consciousness of the seriousness of the problem.

I believe that if you are to face up to this problem you will have to provide some extra means by which this disease will be made notifiable. I do not entirely agree that that should be left to the medical officers. It is not always reasonable in this country to suggest compulsion of one sort or another, but people in backward parts of the country have such a deplorable mental attitude to this problem of tuberculosis that I really feel you will have to consider some form of compulsion if you are ever to get at the root of the problem.

The statistics show that where ordinary cases, and even advanced cases, of the disease come to the notice of the members of the medical profession it is found that people have been suffering from it for years. Very often cases of the kind only come to light when they have reached the fatal stage. We have to get over that barrier in the public mind. If we cannot rely on our dispensary services to get us results we should consider some form of compulsion. The same applies to many other forms of infectious disease which people hide. It is for us to devise some means by which we can make people sufficiently conscious of the dangers they incur by hiding these cases of infectious disease. That problem will arise particularly in the case of our young people. They are inclined to evade the doctor, and will not go to a sanatorium or a hospital. The only remedy seems to be to devise a home nursing service which will be responsible for, at least, informing the medical services of suspects of the disease. If such a widespread service were established, even on a voluntary basis through the Red Cross, we would then be in a position to have these cases fully recorded and to take the necessary steps in the way of making these young people come in for treatment.

The scheme of hospitalisation envisaged by the Parliamentary Secretary certainly goes a long way, that is, presuming, of course, you are going to reach all the cases of the disease in the country. The matter of after-treatment has also been mentioned. I do not wish to add to what has been said on that beyond emphasising again the desirability of finding some means of keeping at least the breadwinner of the family in employment. First of all, you will have to consider providing some means for that family while the breadwinner is in the sanatorium; secondly, you will have to provide some means of keeping him in employment when he leaves the sanatorium. Deputy Cosgrave has suggested some way by which he could be put on light work. These are all matters that will have to be hammered out in due course, but they are essential to the working of the whole scheme. It is useless to send a man to a sanatorium for 13, 26 or 52 weeks if, at the end of his period of treatment, he has to go back to the deplorable domestic surroundings from which he was taken and is just to deteriorate there again. The after-treatment, therefore, is essential to the success of the scheme.

I was glad to learn from the Parliamentary Secretary's statement that he has no intention of superseding the local authorities in this matter. I have already commented on that. I was glad to hear that, because, as I have said, for reasons of propaganda it would be a fatal error to relieve them of their responsibilities and duties in this connection. There is nothing further that I have to say except to add that we welcome the Bill, and will give it our wholehearted co-operation and support. We hope that the good things which the Parliamentary Secretary has promised to the country under the Bill will materialise in due course.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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