On the Adjournment, Deputy Cafferky has given notice to raise the subject-matter of Question No. 20 on to-day's Order Paper.
In Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Charlestown Sub-Postmastership.
This afternoon I addressed a question to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs as follows:-
"To ask the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs if he will state whether the vacancy which existed in Charlestown Post Office for a postmaster has yet been filled; and if an appointment has been made, if he will say who has been appointed and what qualifications the appointee has for the position."
I received the following answer from the Minister:—
"The vacant sub-postmastership of Charlestown has been filled by the appointment of Mr. Valentine Harrison, who was the most suitable candidate forthcoming."
The Minister did not answer the question I put to him, and for that reason I am forced to bring him here and to detain this House over the ordinary time. Therefore, the onus is on the Minister and not on me. I understand that this sub-postmastership became vacant some time in 1944, and that there were a number of applicants for the position. I also understand that an applicant must comply with certain regulations laid down by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) that he or she must not use political influence — by that is meant that he or she must not approach a public representative in Dáil Éireann to request the Minister to have him or her appointed to the particular post—(2) that the office must not be in a licensed premises or that the applicant must not be the owner of a licensed premises for the sale of liquor or that the wife of the applicant must not hold a liquor licence in her name; (3) that the applicant must not be an agent of the National Health Insurance Society. All of these things, I understand, apply to the person appointed in this case. I know for a fact that he used political influence through ex-Deputy Micheal O Cléirigh and three other Fianna Fáil Deputies, two from South Mayo and one from Sligo; that he was an agent for the National Health Insurance Society; that the premises in which the post office is now located is a public-house where beer, whiskey, etc., are served over the counter, and that his wife holds the licence for that premises.
Some 11 persons made application for this post, only two of whom, to my knowledge, had the necessary qualifications. One of these was a lady clerk who administered the affairs of that post office and had given valuable service to this State for well over 20 years. She possessed real qualifications for the post so far as administering the affairs of a post office is concerned. The other was a lady who had retired some considerable time ago. These two were the only persons out of the 11 applicants who possessed the necessary qualifications for carrying out such important business so far as the State is concerned. Notwithstanding that fact, we find that a gentleman was appoined whose application should not have been entertained, and who, I understand, was certainly not approved of by the postal authorities but was appointed by the Minister himself because pressure was brought to bear upon him by political influence. Three months before the appointment was made that gentleman started to remodel these premises and to prepare the necessary room for a post office.
I addressed a question to the Minister on Wednesday, 28th November, asking him what it cost to have the post office removed from the former premises to the new one, and he told me that it cost £102 11s. 7d. to have the telephone wires and cable brought into these new premises. The premises where the post office was formerly were more suitable, because they were far larger. They were situated in a better position in relation to Bellaghy and Charlestown, which are divided by the railway. They were in a central position for the business people and the general public. So far as convenience is concerned, they were situated in the proper centre. The premises also allow of enlargement being made if necessary.
The person who had administered the affairs of this post office under the sub-postmaster was a Miss Brett and she owned the premises. As I say she had made application for this position, and for 25 years had given to this Government and the former Government and a foreign Government faithful service in administering the affairs of this post office. On several occasions the postmaster of Claremorris had congratulated her on her efficiency as a clerk in that post office. Notwithstanding that, we find that this gentleman was appointed who was a political tout of the Fianna Fáil Party, who had appeared on their platforms on every possible occasion and acted as chairman on occasions. From a financial point of view he is not a person to my mind who should be appointed to this position. I am sure the Minister is well aware of that, and that I need not go any deeper into that question, as I do not desire to do so. I know it and he knows it as well as I do. I want to point out here and now that it is this type of jobbery, this type of naked corruption, that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, sitting in that corner there, is prepared to stand over, even against his own staff working under him and against their advice. He is prepared to take the advice of Deputies from outside constituencies such as Sligo and from Deputies representing the Government in South Mayo, against the advice of his own civil servants and Departmental advisers.
The Minister is responsible to the House and nobody else.
I am pointing out that the Minister accepted the advice of Deputies representing my constituency and the constituency of Sligo, against the advice of his advisers in the Department, who I believe to be far more competent to offer him advice than a political representative, no matter what bench he may come from and no matter to which Party he may belong. I want to make it very clear that I pointed that out to the Minister, when I spoke on the Estimate for Posts and Telegraphs some months ago, and I asked him to have the courage—knowing his past history in relation to appointments in relation to post offices — to turn down the influence and turn those people away from him whenever he was faced with influence or wire-pulling from any representative, whether it was Deputy Cafferky, ex-Deputy Micheal O Cléirigh, Deputy Moran, Deputy Richard Walsh or Deputy Dr. Brennan. Notwithstanding that, he was prepared to accept the advice of those gentlemen and forgot to take into consideration the fact that the appointee to-day knows no more about sending out a telegram, knows no more about sending out a code message, knows no more about the business of the post office, than a simple child he would take out of the national school at the age of 10. The very fact that I could go in there to-morrow morning and ask him to send a telegram and that he is not capable of doing so shows he does not possess the qualifications. I now challenge the Minister to say that he does, as I want to tell the Minister here and now that he does not. I challenge the Minister to say that he has the qualifications in relation to the administration of a sub-post office. I want to point out, through you, to the Minister that it is this type of jobbery, this type of naked corruption and graft, plus many other similar actions, that has brought about the defeat of his candidate in South Mayo. The Minister had no excuse to offer.
I must be allowed time to reply.
I am only speaking for seven minutes yet. I know it is not easy to sit down and listen to the truth, but the Minister must do so, according to Standing Orders.
It is hard to listen to the other thing.
I know that the Minister had no explanation to offer me this afternoon, because when I asked him for the qualifications, he could not state the qualifications that the gentleman possessed. The Minister forgot, or did not take into consideration, that, in order to satisfy this miniature politician in the town of Charlestown, in County Mayo, it was necessary to impose an extra tax of £102 11s. 7d., notwithstanding, as the Minister knows, that he had sent two gentlemen down to Charlestown to measure, moryah, the houses so as to find out which would be the suitable premises, so that there would be no favouritism, so that it would be over and above board, moryah. This gentlemen, now appointed sub-postmaster, had partitioned this little room away from the publichouse counter, across which the bottle of beer and the half of whiskey were served, and where people could come in from the early hours of the morning until late at night. He had erected a private partition and broke out a door months in advance, and was going around Charlestown boasting that he had political power, that he had gentlemen working for him, that he had men prepared to stoop to graft and corruption and that the Minister would be prepared to accept their advice and have him appointed.
I want to point out to you and to this House that, thank God, the writing is on the wall for him and his colleagues to read. Not only will the people of South Mayo refuse to accept that type of corruptible administration, that type of jobbery, that type of graft, which is part and parcel of his administration in relation to the appointments of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses in this country since he took over administration, but when he and his Government appear before this country in 1948, the answer given to them in South Mayo recently will be the answer they will receive in every other constituency where this type of graft and corruption has taken place.
The Minister to reply.
On a point of order, Deputy Cafferky has mentioned that I was one of the Deputies who used influence on behalf of Mr. Harrison. I want emphatically to contradict that and challenge the Deputy to produce proof.
Yes, you did, together with two other Deputies.
I challenge the Deputy to produce proof of his allegations that I used any influence.
I also deny that I used any influence.
I must be allowed time to reply.
The Deputy must accept the disclaimer of Deputy Brennan.
I do not accept the denial.
I demand that Deputy Cafferky withdraw that allegation against me, as it is absolutely unfounded.
Deputy Cafferky must accept the disclaimer.
It is not up to the Minister to state what happened?
I would ask you not to press Deputy Cafferky as I know what he is seeking. He wants publicity. Any action that I took regarding this post office I stand over and I am not one bit ashamed of it.
You took part in the graft and corruption.
The Deputy can go to South Mayo and shout it at every chapel gate. He tried to do his damnedest on Thursday week. There has been a lot of scurrility and filth in use for the past ten weeks.
Deputy Brennan has made a disclaimer with reference to the charge made against him by Deputy Cafferky and Deputy Cafferky must accept that disclaimer.
I was speaking to the Minister. I have made this statement and do not intend to withdraw it.
I am asking Deputy Cafferky to accept that disclaimer from Deputy Brennan.
Has not one of the Deputies whom I accused admitted it and so also have the others?
I must insist that I deny it.
If Deputy Cafferky does not do that, he will have to leave the House. The Deputy has made a disclaimer and that must be accepted. Does he accept it or not?
Let the Minister say——
The Minister does not enter into this. The Chair has made a ruling on the point and asks the Deputy to accept the disclaimer.
Well, I protest, but in view of your ruling I accept it, but not the denial by Dr. Brennan.
It must be done unreservedly and without condition. The Deputy must do it or leave the House.
I will leave the House, as I am confident that he did and, therefore, I will leave the House before I do it.
I put it to you that it is up to the Minister to state whether Deputy Brennan or Deputy Cafferky or any others were concerned.
It is up to the House to obey the Chair.
I do not desire any publicity by leaving this House. Since I came in here I have tried to conduct myself in the debates and act within the Standing Orders. When I made my statement I was confident, and I am still confident, that these gentlemen did what I said they have done.
The Deputy must resume his seat while the occupant of the Chair is addressing the House. The Deputy must accept that disclaimer unreservedly. Does he do so?
I accept it.
Unreservedly.
I have seldom listened to a speech which contained so many thoroughly improper remarks as that just delivered by Deputy Cafferky. To begin with, I do not know according to what rules of order one can be charged in this House with graft and corruption. I think that is entirely contrary to the rules of an assembly of this sort. Several of the statements the Deputy made are entirely untrue.
Deny them.
They are entirely untrue. This man who was appointed is a man of extreme ability, a man of very great ability, and more able than anybody else there. Owing to his ability, which is well known to many people, he received that appointment, and any other matters were subordinated to that fact. It is also true that the lady —I am sorry the Deputy mentioned her name, because it is most unfair to her——
She asked me to do so; I did it with her permission.
She is a very elderly person and she was not suitable for that reason, no matter how good she may have been otherwise. I chose the person who was by far the best and who had proved his ability. I think it is a most scandalous abuse of the privileges of this House that the Deputy should hint as to the financial condition of a man of his ability, or indeed of anybody of that sort. I repeat that it is a scandalous abuse. The premises were entirely cut off from the public-house some time before the appointment arose.
Three months.
No promise whatever was made and there was no indication to him that he should do it; he was setting out upon his own to do that and he did it before ever it was understood he would be appointed, or before ever the matter was decided.
Was he the candidate recommended by the Minister's advisers?
That is a matter for myself.
Answer yes or no.
I make the decision; none of my advisers makes it, and the Deputy should know that as well as I do.
Is the Minister to be allowed to answer or not?
It is I who make the decision, not my advisers. After I take their views fully, I make the decision. Do Deputies suggest that I should do everything that I am told by my advisers?
Yes.
Then why do Deputies come to the House and say we are over-ruled by civil servants, and why do they make attacks on bureaucracy? I do not think I need detain the House any longer on this matter.
Answer the points that were put to you.
The Minister had better sit down; he has no answer to make to my statement.
I pointed out that the person appointed is by far the ablest person. He has given up any other business which he had undertaken before.
Of course he has.
Then why did you say he was holding other appointments?
He did hold them until he was appointed to this position.
Very well, there is an end of it.
He gave his other work up for a better job with a bigger salary.
In other words, the Deputy was trying to get publicity out of false statements all the way through.
No, Mr. Minister.
They were entirely false statements, made to mislead the House and the public. I do not see that there is anything else to be said.
The whole thing amounts to this, that a political tout was appointed.
If a Clann na Talmhan supporter was appointed it would be all right.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.36 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 13th December.