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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Mar 1946

Vol. 100 No. 1

Public Health Bill, 1945. - Holidays (Employees) (Amendment) Bill, 1946—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed:"That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill, as has already been explained by other speakers, is really simple. Its purpose is to remove a very unnecessary and irksome discrimination against what is held to be one of the most essential sections of our community, a section which has frequently been lauded to the skies for the very useful work they do, particularly during periods of crisis, of economic stress—the agricultural workers. In season and out of season we hear them being lauded to the skies, but when we come to translate that praise into action, I fear that very little in the way of practical support is given to these eulogies which are so often poured out.

In the social code there is discrimination shown against them, in so far as they are the only people who are denied an annual holiday. If they were domestic workers, industrial workers, or commercial workers, they would be entitled, under statutes passed by the Oireachtas, to get an annual break, and while it may reasonably and fairly be argued that there was a stronger case for granting an annual holiday to people engaged in certain forms of industrial work than to those engaged in agriculture—that may, to an extent, be true—it could reasonably be argued that, when it was applied to industrial workers, it was not applied to particular sections but was spread over all sections. The building trade worker, who works in the open air, has much more varied work to do than the agricultural worker, who also works in the open air. The surroundings of the latter are rather dreary, working as he does from dawn to dark, whether in the cow byre or the milking pen. He has a very dreary round of drudgery from one year's end to another, and it is felt that such workers have a reasonable right to grouse against having been specially selected by existing legislation for deprivation of what is regarded as necessary for every other type of worker.

We hear about the flight from the land, and there can be no question that the agricultural worker is wakening up, is looking at the conditions enjoyed by those who go in amongst the lights of the cities and towns and asking himself why he is regarded as a pariah when this House comes to pass legislation. The discrimination is not confined to this particular social legislation. On previous occasions, when particular measures were passing through the House and when we asked for a little practical sympathy for rural workers, a very deaf ear was turned to our suggestions. When it came to a question of the purchase of their homes, there was a very dull response from the Government Benches, and when we recently sought a reduction in the rents of these workers, who previously had been lauded as being great fellows for. having fought on behalf of the farming community in previous campaigns, our proposals were turned down, not once but twice.

Now we come to the social side of the matter, and when they find that the domestic servant and the industrial and commercial worker, in whatever sphere, are entitled to this annual holiday, they rightly ask why they should be specially selected for a 52-week year. I think the granting of this annual holiday would be good for the community generally and for the health of the agricultural worker and would not delimit his output in any way—in fact, it would increase it, because if you have a more contented agricultural working class, you will get a better output at the end of the year. If they could look forward, as can their fellows in the cities, towns and villages to an annual break, if it were possible for them to commingle with their fellows in the towns and cities in respect of what are called holiday savings clubs, organised under the auspices of the tourist association and which are having a very good effect, not alone from the point of view of the actual holiday but from the point of view of the encouragement of the thrift habit amongst these workers, it would mean a very big uplift in the output of the agricultural worker and his wife and family if he could look forward to a week's or two weeks'—one week would perhaps meet the case—annual holiday.

Let him come up and see Dublin. His only hope of seeing Dublin now is when his county wins the hurling semi-final and goes on to the final in Dublin. He is then packed into a crowded train, if he is lucky enough to get a train, or, if he is enthusiastic enough, he will come in a lorry and risk prosecution. He wants to come up and see the bright lights. Would he not like to see his Deputies and legislation being discussed in this House? It would be a great attraction, and he ought to be entitled to come to Dublin, or to go to the seaside, and to get away from his dreary surroundings once a year. He is entitled to it by the nature of his work and by every canon of right and justice, and the House should agree that he should not be debarred any more than other workers who are catered for.

There is another anomaly which I think is even more glaring than the differentiation between country and town workers. It is that the domestic worker even in the country gets the holiday. If, for instance, a person is engaged on the farm in some domestic work such as washing dishes, sweeping up, bed-making or any other activities incidental to home-keeping that person is entitled to the holiday. If, however, a person is engaged in milking cows or looking after poultry—very essential work—the law prescribes that that person is debarred from getting the holiday. The anomaly in that case has gone to great extremes.

There is one stamp for one and two for the other, and it is the cause of endless friction and confusion, I have been told by people engaged in farming. That seems to indicate that those engaged in agricultural work are looked on as a kind of untouchables. We praise them, on the one hand, and, on the other, we definitely set them on one side as a class in themselves who must remain outside the pale of social legislation and who are to get no amelioration of the dreary conditions of their work. I commend this Bill to the House. It seeks merely to repeal the penal section in the existing Act which debars these people from getting what has been given to others, and I appeal to Deputies to give it favourable consideration and to see that the agricultural worker is brought into line in this respect with the other sections of workers already catered for.

The Minister does not yet seem inclined to intervene in this debate. I shall give my views briefly as a farmer-Deputy. The Minister, in accordance with his usual form, is probably adopting a cautious attitude. I am not inclined to be equally cautious. When I see a bull in a field, I am inclined to take him by the horns and rub his nose in the grass to see what his reactions would be. I admit right away that this measure is a rather delicate one so far as the farming community is concerned. In so far as it seeks to raise the status and standard of living of our agricultural workers, I think it will meet with general approval in this House. It seeks to ensure that workers have an annual holiday and, in so doing, it imposes an additional charge on the agricultural employer. I acknowledge right away that it is a very small charge, being an increase of about 2 per cent. in the total annual charge to the employer per man, as Deputy Norton pointed out.

We on the farming Benches have been persistently and consistently demanding for those engaged in agriculture, whether as farmers or workers, the same standard of living as people in industrial and commercial occupations. I cannot see any grounds on which farmers can oppose this measure. If we seek better conditions for the agricultural community generally, if we seek to ensure that the agricultural producer shall be on a par with other producers, we must agree that the differentiation between agricultural workers and industrial workers should be removed, that the agricultural worker should not be placed in an inferior position to other workers. This Bill will put him in a somewhat equal position, since the principle of an annual holiday is accepted in most occupations at the present time.

We have to ask what the proposers of this Bill recommend to ensure that the agricultural employer shall be in a position always to meet this additional charge. One point made by Deputy Norton in introducing the Bill—a point which I consider was a weak one—was his comparison of the agricultural income at the present day and prewar. He said that it has increased, because a number of statements by Ministers declared that the farming community was very well off. I do not think he should be encouraged to quote such unreliable statements. If he is basing his case for this Bill, which ought to be a permanent measure if it is passed at all, on a temporary improvement in agricultural conditions, he is basing it on very weak ground. I think such a temporary improvement is not the basis on which a measure of this kind should be introduced. This is a measure which, if enacted, will remain in force long after the recent war and the present emergency are forgotten. Therefore, if this House is enacting legislation to impose statutory obligations upon the agricultural community, it must, at the same time or immediately afterwards, introduce legislation to ensure that the employers concerned shall be in a position to fulfil those liabilities.

We had a post-war agricultural committee dealing with agriculture recently and the majority decided that the standard of income in agriculture should be based on the law of supply and demand, that there should be a complete return to free trade and that the standard of living of the agricultural community should be based on the standard of living amongst the lowest-paid workers engaged in exporting to the British market in any part of the world. If we accept that view, we should reject this Bill definitely. If we accept this Bill, we have to reject the decision of the majority of that committee and take the view that, having set our hands to fixing an improved standard of living for our agricultural workers, we must make provision for such prices for agricultural produce as will enable that standard to be maintained. The farmer cannot give more to his employees than he is able to obtain in the market for his produce.

We all know that it is desirable, not only in the interests of the agricultural industry but in the interests of the nation, that both the farmer and the worker should co-operate in mutual harmony and agreement. We know that, in the crisis that followed the first world war, when agricultural prices collapsed, there was an immediate conflict between the agricultural workers and the farmers, a long and bitter conflict, in which the farmers gained what appeared at that time to be a victory. We do not want a similar conflict to arise in the future. We want the agricultural worker to feel that be is being as well paid as that industry is capable of paying him and we must ensure that that industry is put in a position to treat him fairly and equitably. In one respect, the Minister might argue that this Bill would not alter the position very much, as the relations between agricultural workers and their employers are fixed at present by an Agricultural Wages Board. It is quite apparent that that board, as at present constituted, will take into consideration the concession being made to the agricultural worker in this Bill and will apportion wages in future accordingly. I think, however, that that would be a rather narrow view to take of the position.

This Bill does provide a fundamental change in the position of the agricultural worker. It affords him what he never was afforded before, an annual holiday. I think if it were in the power of the Wages Board to give such a concession, they would probably have considered it before now; but it was probably not in their power and hence this Bill is necessary. It is a fundamental change and, that being so, if the Bill is passed it carries with it an obligation on this House so to implement its provisions as to ensure that no matter what depression may occur in agriculture, the farmer will be guaranteed such an income as will enable him to give to his workers what is envisaged in this Bill. We know that during the depressed period in agriculture, the period before the present Minister came into office—and, indeed, for a considerable time after he came into office there was a depression aggravated to a considerable extent by the Minister himself—there were very few holidays for agriculturists. The conditions were so bad that very little in the way of holidays was possible.

We know that at the present time there is very little opportunity for holidays for farmers and the members of their families and, so far as we can look into the future, there will be very little opportunity from that point of view. It is true that the well-to-do farmers, those who live in very good farming areas, can afford to take an annual holiday, but the small farmers, struggling on inferior land, find that they have to work not alone a very long day or a very long week, but they have to work the full 52 weeks of the year. If the effect of this Bill in providing for an annual holiday for an agricultural worker will be so to improve agricultural prices as to ensure that the farmer and the members of his family will be able to avail of an annual holiday, then it must be regarded as a very far-reaching and desirable reform.

I am rather at a disadvantage in discussing this Bill because I did not carefully read the Principal Act, but I understand that the effect of the Bill will be to make it an obligation on the employer to provide a full week's holiday with pay. I am not sure whether those holidays are to be provided in the one week or whether there are to be two or three broken periods of two or three days each. It may be that is a matter which can be settled by mutual agreement between the employer and the workers. I know there are quite a number of workers who would prefer to take two days in the early part of the year and perhaps two or three days later on, to have the week divided, so to speak. This course would fit in with local sporting events, such as point-to-point races and so on, and it might be found very agreeable by the employees. Whatever arrangement is made in that respect, I think it is essential that the holidays should be fixed between the employer and the worker by mutual consent.

As I understand it, the Bill will provide that every worker who gives 12 months' constant work is legally entitled to a holiday. If the employer meets the worker in a reasonable way, it should be possible by agreement to ensure that these holidays will not be taken at a time when it would give the employer the maximum amount of inconvenience. I want to stress the point that in dealing with holidays for agricultural workers we are dealing with a type of employer who has only one or two workers, and the effect of giving a week's holidays where there are only one or two workers would mean that the farmer has his staff reduced by 50 per cent. or possibly 100 per cent. for that period. It is a very different proposition where the larger employer is concerned. He has a large number of workers and he can stagger the holidays for a long period, so that he hardly notices the fact that one or two of his men are on leave at a particular time.

I think it is a problem which can be solved easily if there is give and take between the employer and the worker. There are slack periods on a farm at all seasons of the year. I do not think it could be seriously suggested that a farmer would insist upon his men taking their holidays in the dead of winter, when work is slack. There are also slack periods in early June and at various other times between the busier periods and it is by agreement between the worker and the employer that those holidays can be taken without causing any serious inconvenience.

I recommend this Bill to the House. I strongly urge that if it is passed it should be accompanied by other legislation ensuring that the farmers' income will be guaranteed in the event of a serious depression in the near future. We cannot have a minimum standard of living or minimum conditions of work for the agricultural worker and have the employer and the agricultural community generally exposed to what I would describe as the jungle law of supply and demand.

We must remember that we have in this country, in the agricultural industry, not only employers and employees, but also a very big section who are neither employers nor employees. We have small farmers who work their holdings by their own labour and the labour of the members of their families and it would be disastrous if the standard of living of these people on small farms was, by the operation of the law of supply and demand and prices of agricultural produce, brought below that of the agricultural worker. It would not make for happiness or contentment among the young people who are members of the small farmers' families if they found that the agricultural worker could enjoy a holiday and that they were unable to afford it because of agricultural conditions. That state of affairs would tend to drive more and more of the farming community, particularly the young people, off the land to seek employment elsewhere. If this Bill is accepted in the spirit in which I have supported it and if the principle that the farmer is to be secured against acute agricultural depression is accepted, I think the House should have no hesitation in accepting the Bill.

Deputy Cogan accused me of being cautious. I want to say that on a motion like this, if it is a bona fide motion—which I take it to be as far as Deputy Norton is concerned—speeches are made so as to convince Deputies, and, as the Minister may control the largest Party, it is up to speakers to try to convince him that their arguments are right. Therefore, the Minister has to hear the arguments before coming to a decision. If, as Deputy Cogan thinks, this is a propaganda motion, the sooner the Minister speaks the better so that every Party can hear what he has to say. If I have been cautious, I have been waiting to hear the arguments. I am not edified by the arguments of Deputy Cogan. He stated that he agreed that the agricultural labourers must get more, but that farmers must also get more to recoup them. That is a very cautious argument. I do not find fault with it.

It was very logical.

Very logical and very cautious. Deputy Cogan can say to the agricultural labourer in Wicklow that he voted for the Bill, and if a farmer asks him why he voted for it, he can say that he made it a condition that as a result farmers would also get more. That could not be beaten for caution. I am not going to try to beat it. I am going to give my views and to be attacked by both sides, if necessary. Deputy Cogan has guarded himself against that. Deputy Norton and the Labour Party had, at least, the courage to say that the farmers could afford this at present. Therefore; if the Bill is passed into law by this House Deputy Norton and his Party will not have to give any explanation. Deputy Cogan is not going to take that risk. If the Bill is passed, as far as he is concerned, he does not run any risk from anybody, because the labourers will be delighted naturally to get a week's paid holidays, and farmers will be put in the position by the Government of having to pay them. Therefore, Deputy Cogan will stand right with everybody. He is every man's man. I am afraid there will be a division on the Bill, and I advise Deputy Cogan, when he is going into the Division Lobby, to vote on this question assuming that farmers' conditions should remain as they are. If he thinks the farmers can afford to give the holiday, then he should vote for the Bill. That is what the Labour Party is going to do.

The Minister has not fixity of tenure in his office. He cannot guarantee that.

I have not. But as long as I am here let Deputy Cogan explain to the farmers of Wicklow—and I am not saying that he could not explain it to them—that he voted for the Bill with his eyes open, as the farmers could afford to give holidays. Let him not shelter behind the condition that he voted for it but, at the same time, demanded that farmers should be put in a better position to pay. Let it be one way or the other. Let us argue about the Bill on that basis. That is as far as Deputy Cogan goes. I want to give my views now.

In the first place, I think it was only by a-discriminatory provision in the original Act that agricultural labourers were left out. Some members on the Labour Benches made that point. Other classes were exempted as well as agricultural labourers. There is a long list of exemptions. For instance, it includes railway refreshment attendants. I do not know why they were exempted, but it was probably owing to the nature of their work, and that they had to be left out of the continuous holiday. There was no offence meant in leaving out railway refreshment attendants. Then miners, other than coal miners, and various other types are left out. There must be a reason why agricultural labourers were left out. There was a reason. Strange to say, clergymen in Holy Orders are left out. I never heard of a clergyman objecting, or saying that he was insulted by being left out. I suppose the idea was that it would not do to give a clergyman seven days' holidays, because his duties would not permit. He would have to break the holidays. There were good reasons for exempting various classes.

Was that the only reason for exempting clergymen?

I do not know. I have not heard the reason. Probably there was some reason, and that clergymen could not be spared on seven successive days.

The question of compulsion did not come in.

I do not know why that was put into the Bill. Anyway, one of the exceptions concerns clergymen. If there was a good reason why clergymen should be exempted, then we must come to the conclusion that it was discriminatory, and because discrimination was shown, they were put into the exempted list. I should like to point out that it is not practicable to apply this Bill to agricultural labourers. As Deputy Larkin pointed out, the original Act was drawn up for industrial workers. The Minister and the Department in drawing up the Act had it clearly in view that it was possible to give six bank holidays and seven clear days each year to industrial workers without upsetting industrial concerns. As a matter of fact, we know that many of these industries close down completely for a week, and that no harm is done. At the end of the week the workers and managers go back and take up where they left off.

I want also to point to something which would make for difficulty here. There is discrimination between a domestic worker and a non-domestic worker. As far as I can interpret the Act a man working for a farmer and living in would be classed as a domestic worker. That was the explanation given. If this Act applied to a farmer he would have to know his law very well. He would have to apply one set of rules to the man living in and another set of rules to the man living out. The man living in would not necessarily get any Sunday or any holiday during the year, but he would get instead 14 days clear holidays. The non-domestic worker who lived out would get six bank holidays and seven days together. The seven days must be together. That is laid down by the Act. That might give rise to considerable difficulty for a farmer, because he might have one man living in, and one man living out, and, therefore, he would have to treat both in different ways. Then there is the case of the casual worker. The farmer would have to keep a very strict account of the number of days a worker had casual work, and would have to give what is referred to in the Act as "cesser pay" at the end of the period. That is given in lieu of holidays to such workers.

The most serious part, however, in the Act is that, to be a holiday, the employer must not admit such worker to do any work for him on that day. Therefore, if it applied to a farmer, he would have to arrange with the worker to give him six bank holidays or six Church holidays. There are various duties laid down, such as the notice to be given for a change from Church to bank holidays. In addition, he would have to give the seven holidays in an unbroken week. It includes Sunday, of course. None of these days would count if the men did any work whatever for the farmer. So that if a farmer has one or two men employed, if he has no son to work in the place, if he is a fairly old man or if there is no man at all there—it might be a widow, as we often have in this country managing a farm with a man or two working—the men must not come in even to give a horse a drink because, if they do that, the day does not count as a holiday. I think Deputies will see that that makes it almost impossible to apply the Holidays Act to agricultural workers, as it is, at any rate.

What happens when he is sick for a day? How does the horse get the drink then? I suppose it goes dry.

No. We will deal with that too. If Deputy Norton wants to be reasonable—sometimes he can be— he will see that there is a genuine objection there. There is a genuine objection to applying the Holidays Act as it stands. I am going to concede the point that when I mention these objections, Deputy Norton may very well say to me: "But these things can be accounted for." Maybe they can. I am making the point that this Bill in the form in which Deputy Norton brings it in, to delete a certain paragraph out of a certain Bill, is impracticable, unworkable and could never be applied; but, if you like, we will deal with it on the principle that underlies the Bill rather than with these details because I quite admit that if the Dáil were to vote in favour of the principle of this Bill it would not be reasonable to reject it because it was impracticable; it could be made practicable by looking after details of that kind.

Agriculture is very different from the industries that were legislated for. In the first place, in these industries you have owners and employers comparatively few in number and employees comparatively very much greater in number. In other words, the average number employed by employers is big compared with the number employed on the farm. Somebody quoted figures in this House which appeared to me to be fairly correct. In 1944 we had, I believe, employed in agriculture in this country, males over 18 years of age, 495,000, and of that number 83,000 were permanent paid employees and 52,000 were temporary paid employees. These figures have already been quoted. Therefore, in the agricultural industry you have only about one in four to whom this Act would apply. In the manufacturing industries, as opposed to agriculture, and to which the Act already applies, the proportion, of course, is altogether different. It is probably 50 or 60 employees to one employer instead of being, as it is in agriculture, one employee to three on the employers' side. They are not all employers, of course, because they have not men employed.

Deputy Cogan mentioned a matter in reference to the small farmer and I think there is a good deal in the point. Of the 384,000 holdings in this country 242,000 are under 30 acres. Very few owners of small holdings would have an employee. If this Act were to be brought in, it may be argued that very few of them would be able to afford the week's holiday that would be granted to the employee employed on the big farm adjoining them and it might make for a certain amount of discontent amongst these people; but, whether it did or not, the point is that the Act would apply only to a certain proportion, say, about 25 per cent. altogether of those who are working in agriculture at the moment. There are very few farmers in this country who employ more than two or three men and it would be difficult for these employers to let an employee off. The employer who has a big number of men, say, six or more, would find it easier to let his men off in turn, but the man with only two employees or one employee would find it extremely difficult.

Deputy Cogan said that if the Act were adapted to cover agriculture farmers would not be driven to the expedient of giving holidays during the winter months. I do not know. I think you will have other ill-effects if they try to get these holidays during the summer because, as farming is at present, with increased tillage, beet growing and so on, a farmer is very busy from March to November, practically without a stop. If he is forced to allow his men off for a complete week during that period I think he will be forced in turn to take on a casual instead. I do not favour a system of casual labour and since I came into this office I have done anything I thought would tend the other way, that is, to induce farmers to employ their men the whole year round rather than to keep a certain number the whole year round and to employ casuals for part of the year. I think these casual labourers are in a most unfortunate position, getting work for four, six or eight months and being unable to find work for the remainder of the year. Anything that would tend to intensify a casual labour system would, in my opinion, be very bad. Of course as there is more mixed farming, more tillage and so on, it should have the tendency to do away with the casual labour system because the farmers who employed casual labourers in the past to make hay, which was the only operation they had for them, now have to commence their tillage operations as soon as possible after Christmas, ploughing and so on, and even before Christmas, if they can, and the work goes on continuously for the year, between tillage operations, and attending to live stock in the winter time. It should have the tendency to make for permanent employment rather than casual employment. Then, some years ago in giving a certain agricultural grant for relief of rates it was arranged so as to give an advantage to the man who employs permanent labour. I admit that the reward to a farmer for employing a man the year round is small but it is something and it shows at least that, as far as the Government are concerned, they were anxious, so far as the finances would permit, to reward a man who employed labourers the whole year round. The farm improvements scheme was brought in for the same reason. Primarily, that scheme was brought in to help farmers to keep their men employed during the winter months, so that if they had good labourers employed for the greater part of the year we might induce them to keep these men for the winter months on some improvements on the farm. We offered them a monetary reward, if you like, to help to keep these men employed. I mention these matters to show that I have favoured the system of permanent employment. If we can avoid it, I do not want to see anything happen that might encourage or increase the system of casual labour.

Another point which I think was probably in the mind of the Minister for Industry and Commerce and those who brought in similar legislation in other countries for industrial workers as that you have in these factories men and women who are on a very uninteresting job. I suppose there is no Deputy who has not been in some of these big factories from time to time. He will see there a worker doing the same operation hundreds of times every day. These people want a break of some kind. The agricultural labourer's job may be drudgery at times—I admit that—but one thing about it is that it is varied. He has not to do the same operation over and over again, because, as every week of the year comes round, there is a different job in front of him. His job is varied and, in that way, he is not in the position of the industrial worker.

Another point I want to make is this. It was mentioned by Deputy McCarthy when he was speaking on the last night, but he had not time to develop his argument because the debate was adjourned. Good employers amongst farmers are giving their employees at least the equivalent of what industrial workers are getting. In fact I think I can claim that good employers amongst farmers are giving more. What is provided for the industrial worker is six holidays, usually bank holidays. But the industrial employer can substitute Church holidays for these six days by giving due notice. There is a week's holidays as well. That week's holidays of course includes the Sunday. You cannot get seven days together without including the Sunday. Leaving out Sunday, that amounts to 12 days' holidays for an industrial worker. So far as my knowledge goes, I think that in practice every farmer gives the Church holidays to his labourers. There are ten church holidays, so that really he is already giving ten days as against 12. But he goes farther than that. I think it will be conceded by Deputies that whenever there is a race meeting or a ploughing match or a function of that kind, the agricultural labourers in the vicinity get a day off from their employers. They always get a day or two of that kind during the year. Again, I wonder whether there is any part of the country where the farmer employer does not give his labourer a day with a pair of horses to do his plot, or maybe two days; at least, let us say, one day to till and get it ready, a few hours to sow and a few hours at the end of the year if there is any harvesting to be done. I cannot claim that this is general, but I think that if a farmer's man is sick for one or two days, he is paid for these days. That may not apply generally.

I say that the great majority of the farmers in this country are giving ten Church holidays, a day or two for functions in the district, like races or ploughing matches, a day or two for a man to attend to his plot, and a few days during the year for what we might call sick leave. Therefore, in my opinion, the agricultural labourer is getting very much more than he would get under this rigid legislation which, was applied to industrial workers. We are only dealing here with holidays. Therefore, I do not want to mention other perquisites that the agricultural labourer may get, because they would be on the wages side. These are the free days, let us say, that he gets as against the holidays asked for here.

Deputy Norton, of course, in winding up will be quite justified in saying to me: "If things are as good as that with labourers all over the country, why not legislate and make the few farmer-employers who are not giving these holidays do it?" That is a reasonable question. I do not know that it is necessary. At the moment I think there is almost a scarcity, if not a scarcity, of agricultural labourers in every district in the country. At any rate, an agricultural labourer at the moment in practically every district has his choice. If he is working with a person who is not a good employer, he can leave him and go to an employer who will treat him fairly and decently. I think, therefore, that the agricultural labourer is in a position to get the holidays, or most of them anyway—I suppose it varies from district to district—that I have mentioned, at least amounting to the 12 days that are demanded under this Bill.

The Agricultural Wages Act was passed in 1936, I think. It imposed certain things on the employers and on the employees. It did good to a certain number of lowly-paid agricultural labourers. But I have been attacked by many agricultural labourers for the passing of that Act because in some ways it did a lot of harm. One thing we are all familiar with is that it made it impossible for the indifferent sort of man, what was referred to as the mentally or physically deficient man, to get a job at all. We tried to make that right by amendment. As well as that, some agricultural labourers hold that they are better off with the relations they have with the farmers than if rigid rules were laid down for them. The agricultural labourer is in a very different position from the industrial worker. The industrial employer hardly knows his men. But the farmer works beside his men in the fields and in the yard. If he is a small farmer and has only one man, perhaps he eats at the same table as that man and perhaps sits at the same fireside and talks things over with him at night. At any rate, even where the farmer is a bit above that, he does work beside his men occasionally, in fact, very often, and he knows his men intimately. Therefore, the farmer and his labourer are on very different terms from the industrial employer and his men. I think we should be careful that we do not destroy that relationship by legislation and rigid rules and regulations.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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