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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Feb 1947

Vol. 104 No. 7

Constituent School of the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies—Motion.

Tairgim:—

Go geeadaíonn Dáil Éireann go mbunófaí Comh-Scoil d'Institiúid Ard-Léinn Bhaile Atha Cliath chun ard-staidéar a chur chun cinn agus taighde a dhéanamh sa bhFisic Chosmach.

Nuair a bhí an Bille um Institiúid Árd-Léinn Bhaile Átha Cliath ós cóir na Dála roinnt bhlian ó shin míníodh gurbh é cuspóir a bhí leis ná rannóg eile a chur le foirgneamh oideachais na tíre ionnas go bhféadfaimis ár gcion a dhéanamh chun cúrsaí léinn a chur chun cinn. Bunaíodh an Institiúid chun go bhféadfaí árd-staidéar agus taighde a dhéanamh i mbrainsí speisialta eolais trí bhíthin comh-scoileanna de na brainsí éagsúla. Soláthraíodh an fráma chuige sin—an cólucht corparáideach, Cómhairle na hInstitiúide, i mbun rialuithe is riaracháin ghinearálta, agus comh-scoileanna a raibh a bhórd rialúcháin féin ag gach ceann acu i mbun obair speisialta na scoile sin ar leith. Bunaíodh dhá scoil mar thús oibre. Scoil an Léinn Cheiltigh agus Scoil na Fisice Teoiriciúla. Do léiríodh an uair sin ná raibh sa dá scoil sin, dar linn, ach sompla ar an eagar a measadh a cuirfí ar an Institiúid do réir mar a fhásfadh sí ar ball. Rinneadh socrú chun comh-scoileanna eile a bhunú dá gceapfadh an Rialtas go mbéadh sé sin inmholta. Tá beartaithe ag an Rialtas anois gurb é an leas poiblí comh-scoil eile a bhunú, Scoil na Fisice Cosmaí, agus do réir Míre 4 (2) den Acht um Institiúid Árd-Léinn, 1940, ní foláir toiliu na Dála a fháil i bhfoirm rúin sar a mbunaítear an Nua-Scoil seo.

Ach a rithidh an Dáil agus an tSeanaid rúin toilithe déanfaidh an Rialtas Órdú Bunúcháin. Leanfaidh an tÓrdú sin sompla ginearálta na nOrdú a rinneadh cheana le nar bunaíodh Scoil an Léinn Cheiltigh agus Scoil na Fisice Teoiriciúla. Beidh sé d'fheidhm agus de dhualgas ar an Scoil scrúdú teoiriciúil agus scrúdú trialach a dhéanamh ar fhadhbanna na fisice cosmaí, agus na hastrofisice, gaethe cosmacha, geoifisic, meteoraíocht agus muireolaíocht a áireamh; toradh an scrúduithe sin a chur i bhfeidhm más féidir é, ar fhadhbanna n a heacnómaíochta náisiúnta; nótaí geoifisiceacha Éireannacha a bhailiú, a scrúdú, agus más inmholta é, iad a fhoillsiú, sa mhéid nach ndéantar soláthar trí sheirbhís stáit chun a leithéid a dhéanamh; mic léinn árd-chúrsa a oiliúint i modhanna taighde bhunúil; agus comhoibriú i dtaighde institiúidí thar lear. Tá socair Teach Faireacháin Dunsink a chur ar fáil don Institiúid le haghaidh na Nua-Scoile agus, sa chás sin, féachfar chuige go dtabharfaidh Bórd Rialúcháin na Scoile cead isteach chun foirgintí, uirlisí agus leabharlann an Teach Faireacháin do bhaill foirinne acadamhúla agus do mhic léinn Choláiste na Trionóide Bhaile Átha Cliath agus Choláiste lolscoile, Bhaile Átha Cliath le haghaidh a gcuid staidéir réalteolaíochta.

Beidh an t-eagar céanna ar an Nua-Scoil atá ar na scoileanna atá ann cheana. Beidh Bórd Rialúcháin ina bun ar a mbeidh Cathaoirleach, na hOllúin Sinsearacha agus roinnt ball a ceapfar ná beidh a n-uimhir faoi bhun uimhir na nOllún Sinsearach. An tUachtarán a cheapfas iad uile ar chomhairle an Rialtais. Ceapfaidh an Bórd Rialúcháin duine de na hOllúin Sinsearacha ina Stiúrthóir ar an Scoil. Beidh na Coinníollacha maidir le ceapadh, sealbhaíocht oifige agus cur as oifig ball an Bhoird, an Stiúrthóra, na nOllún Sinsearach agus na foirne acadamhúla, agus maidir le stiúrú coiteann gnótha na Scoile, ar aon dul leis na coinníollacha a bhaineas leis an dá scoil atá ann. Ceaptar go bhféadfar triúr eolaí den aicme is airde cáil d'fháil le n-a gceapadh ina nOllúna Sinsearacha sa Nua-Scoil chomh luath agus a bhéas sí bunaithe.

Is féidir a rá gurab ionann Fisic Chosmach agus Fisic na hOllchruinne, na heolaíochta a bhaineas le hairíonna an damhna agus an fhuinnimh agus le gníomhacht foirmeacha éagsúla an fhuinnimh ar an damhna. B'fheidir go gceapfaí ar an ainm ná baineann abhair acadamhúla na heolaíochta sin le gnáthshaol na ndaoine agus ná cuireann éinne suim inti ach na heolaithe sin atá ar tosach na cine daonna ag iarraidh teacht ar an bhfírinne. Ní mar sin atá. Is beag brainse eolaíochta atá chomh luachmhar do shaol náisiúin leis an bhFisic Chosmaigh, fiú an toradh teoiriciúil, is féidir feidhm praiticiúil a bhaint as go luath. Is féidir a rá gó generálta go bhfuil dhá roinn mhóra sa Fisic Chosmaigh, Geoifisic agus Astrofisic. Baineann Geofisic le próiseasaí fisiceacha na talún ar a mairimid, na mara atá timpeall orainn agus an aeir atá in ár dtímpeall agus ós ár gcionn. Tá na próiseasaí sin amhlaidh toisc an domhan bheith ar cheann de phláinéadaí an chórais ghrianda, córas atá ina aonad san Ollchruinne agus glaotar Astrofisic ar an mbrainse seo den eolaíocht.

Roinntear an Gheoifisic, fisic an Domhain, ina trí ranna de ghnáth: fisic na Talún ar a dtugtar Geoifisic (sa chéill chumhang den fhocal), fisic na Mór-Fhairrgí ar a dtugtar Muireolaíocht agus Fisic na ngeas, ar a dtugtar meteoraíocht. Baineann an Gheoifisic, sa chéill chumhang den fhocal, le constitiúid, gluaiseacht, teocht agus tarraing na Talún; le Seismicí, Adhmainteas na Talún, Eleictreachas na Talún agus Radioghníomhacht. Baineann Muireolaíocht le hairíonna fisiceacha na bhfarraige, le cuilithe mara, le tonna agus le taifeach agus réimhinsin na dtaoide. Baineann meteoraíocht le cumasc agus le próiseasaí fisiceacha an atmosféara agus le haimsir agus aoráid.

Tá dlúthbhaint ag na cúrsaí sin le feabhsú an tsaoil. Chun é a rá go simplí, sé aidhm na Fisice Cosmaí chuile eolas a chur ar an domhan seo againn agus an t-eolas sin a chur chun leasa saol na cine daonna. Beidh sé de dhualgas ar an Nua-Scoil seo bheith páirteach san tóraíocht sin an eolais, agus a mheas cén chaoi ab fhearr chun a bhfuil d'eolas fachta cheana agus chun a bhfaghfar fós de, le cúnamh Dé, a chur chun tairbhe d'ár muintir féin.

Tá fás mór fén eolaíocht sin le céad bliain anuas. Agus is iomaí slí in ar chabhraigh an fás sin go mór agus go tábhachtach le saol na cine daonna i geúrsaí leighis, tionnscail, tráchtála agus talmhaíochta. Tá an eolaíocht sin chomh hóg sin fós agus oiread sin mór-shaothair le déanamh nach féidir a rá roimh ré céard iad na fionnachtana atá rómhainn ná cén tairbhe a fhéadfaí a bhaint astu dár muintir féin. Tá rud amháin cinnte, áfach. Má bhraithimíd an chumhacht atá ag an Eolaíocht ar chúrsaí daonna, tuigfimíd gurab é leas an náisiúin bheith páirteach le náisiúin sibhialta an domhain i geomh-thaighde an colais. Tá brainsí áirithe taighde as ár raon ar fad, mar chosnóidís an iomarca chun gléasanna agus foirne a chur ar fáil. Ach sa bhrainse seo na Fisice Cosmaí féadfaimíd súil a bheith againn go gcoinneoimid suas le gluaiseacht an eolais i gcoitinne agus go mbeimid páirteach inti ar chostas réasúnta íseal.

Beidh sé de mhór-bhuntáiste ag an Nua-Scoil bheith i gcómhar le Scoil na Fisice Teoiriciúla san Institiúid. Ceann d'fheidhmeanna an teoiricí sea nótaí agus conchlúidí an triailí a scrúdú agus, vice versa, is mór a stiúraíonn an triailí a chuid taighde do réir an toradh a bhíos ar obair an teoiricí. Bíonn spleáchas acu le chéile agus ba chóir dóibh oibriú le chéile. Tá an Fhisic Chosmach ar fíor-thosach taighde eolaíochta fé láthair agus tá an-tábhacht ann d'obair na fisice teoiriciúla.

Is mór a rachas bunú na Nua-Scoile chun tairbhe do Scoil na Fisice Teoiriciúla san Institiúid. Sa tréimhse ghairid ó bunaíodh Scoil na Fisice Teoiriciúla atá ina cuid d'Institiúid Árd-Léinn Bhaile Átha Cliath, tá an dóchas is aoirde dá raibh againn deimhnithe aici agus tá sí in ainm bheith ar cheann de na scoileanna is fearr dá sórt sa domhan. Is cinnte go mbeidh dlúth-bhaint ag an dá scoil le chéile agus go mbeidh an bhaint sin, nó an comhar sin, ar an leibhéal is aoirde intleacht agus gach cosúlacht ann go mbeidh sár-thoradh ar an obair.

Tá soláthar déanta le haghaidh slí do bhrainsí éagsúla na scoile nua i mBaile Átha Cliath agus Dunsink. Déanfaidh an Institiúid féin agus Coimisinéirí na nOibreacha Poiblí na mion-tsocraithe. Tá an Rialtas tar éis Teach Faireacháin Dunsink a fháil chun úsáide ag an Scoil Nua—tuairim £5,000 de bhun-chostas a bhéas air sin. Ina theannta sin, is cosúil go gcaithfear roinnt atharú a chur ar an Tigh Faireacháin, á chur in oiriúint don obair nua agus ag soláthar breis feisteas teiciniciúil. Ach ó caithfear an t-ullmhú sin a dhéanamh faoi stiúrú Boird Rialúcháin na Scoile ná féadfar a cheapadh nó go mbeidh an Scoil ar bun, tuigfear nach féidir an costas a mheas go cruinn fós. Chomh fada agus is féidir a fheiceáil roimh ré, ba cheart gur leor £15,000 mar bhun-chostas tosaigh agus tuairim £9,000 mar chostas bhliantúil ina dhiaidh sin, agus costas riaracháin a chur san áireamh.

At present, large numbers of our people are suffering considerable hardship mainly owing to factors outside our control. A number of factors which are causing hardship are, however, within our control and we could alleviate the burden on the people and lessen the stresses under which they are living in a number of ways. Evidently, the only contribution by the Government to solving the difficulties under which the ordinary people are labouring is to add considerably to the already swollen sums devoted to luxury schemes and other fantastic types of schemes. For a number of years, we have had considerable difficulties. We had and have our fuel difficulties. Numerous other problems merit close attention and hard work and some of them require expenditure for their solution. We have the report of the committee set up to inquire into post-emergency agriculture stating that the losses due to animal diseases amount to not less than £4,000,000 per annum; we have a long list of applicants for places as students in the veterinary college; we have the veterinary college unable to cope with the present number of students and seriously handicapped in undertaking research into the different types of animal disease—the most serious of which are mastitis and contagious abortion—by insufficiency of funds. These two diseases have been causing serious losses, and are still causing serious losses, to the agricultural community. The farmers, individually, have to attempt to make good such losses which, ultimately, the nation as a whole will have to make good—losses which seriously interfere with our national economy and our capacity to produce healthy live stock.

Faced with that position regarding animal disease and with the position in which there is a long list of waiting applicants for entrance to the veterinary college, whom the college is unable to admit because of insufficient room and insufficient funds to employ an increased number of lecturers or professors, we propose to spend the sum of £5,000 in establishing a school of cosmic physics, with the likelihood of the further expenditure of £15,000 before the school is properly established and before any work is done. In the first year it is estimated that it will cost £9,000. We have in round figures, therefore, before this school produces anything, an expenditure of £29,000, and we are given only a few extracts from dictionaries of the definition of cosmic physics and geophysics.

Is it not time the Government, the country and the Dáil faced up to the realities of the situation? While we have had, over the past few years, partly through factors outside our control, but to a considerable extent due to factors within our control, a large export of men and women, not less than 250,000—even last year, 29,000 people left the country to seek work abroad—our solution, apparently, of the gigantic problems which face the farmers, which face the country in general, which face the ordinary people who make up the population, which face the people who are entitled to the benefits of the best administration the State can give, is to continue running this country on an imperial scale, as though we were a vast empire with colonies and not merely limitless resources here at home but with men and women available to carry on the essential work. We have problems of drainage, bog development and afforestation; and, due to the intensive cultivation during the emergency, almost every farmer has his land now in less fertile condition than it should be or might be if fertilisers were available. When the Government should be making an effort to get increased supplies of fertilisers and to give the benefit of the best scientific advice available on land fertility, the only suggestion they have is to set up a costly school of cosmic physics, without even a report from the physicists on the possibilities of the school, without even vouchsafing to the Dáil the names of the intended professors or experts who are to make up the staff of the school. It is time that realities were faced, when there is a heavy burden on the people, due to central and local taxation for the purpose of unnecessary expenditure on wild schemes.

We have at present a School of Celtic Studies and a School of Higher Mathematics. So far, with a few minor exceptions, neither of them has produced anything which has been shown to be of any benefit to the people. Not only that, but two of the most eminent Celtic scholars retired from the school and one eminent Celtic scholar has left the country in the last 12 months to work abroad. Surely, if our Celtic lore and history and everything associated with our Celtic traditions are to be of benefit to the people, then it would be more advisable to secure, when we have eminent scholars, that they be retained in the country where it should be possible for them to work if they wish to do so. It may be at any time necessary or desirable that a man of that calibre should go abroad to pursue particular research work, but in general these people are leaving because facilities are not made available here.

We have thousands of school children in the City of Dublin ill-equipped with ordinary school books and other essentials to make them reasonably well educated to take their place in the struggle for existence, which every day becomes more acute and more difficult for the ordinary citizen. We could buy sufficient books for them or, at any rate, reduce the price of them, by using this money. In my own constituency, I see county council houses in bad repair, the families in them suffering acute hardship, and there is not a single county council house in need of repair in County Dublin—aye, and in many other places—that could not be repaired by the expenditure of £5,000. Yet the Government's contribution is to set up this school, merely to feed the personal vanity of individuals who are interested in exploiting a bogus reputation as mathematicians, physicists and educationists.

It is time the interests of the people who have to struggle for existence were attended to. This country cannot for ever be run on an imperial scale. The people who are being forced to emigrate have the first rights to work and to the fruits of taxation and to the benefits in the country. Their rights should be attended to first, their needs should be inquired into first and their welfare should have the first consideration of the Government and of Parliament. We should not engage in worthless expenditure. It would be time enough if things were normal to consider expenditure of this kind. It may well be that some good could ultimately come out of this expenditure, but at the present time, faced with acute difficulties, with the stress, the strain and the hardships of present conditions, it shows a total and reckless disregard of the welfare of the community.

I would like to enter a protest on behalf of the Deputies on these benches against the expenditure of money of this nature at the present time. This school would be entirely a luxury at present. We are told the initial cost is £15,000 and the annual cost in the region of £9,000; so that within the next five years we are up against an expenditure of £60,000 on what I consider a luxury. There are other ways in which the money could be spent on very essential services. We find that, in many representations on behalf of the primary schools, which are the universities of 90 per cent. of the children, the Government is very penurious in spending money for the education of the masses. This is an unwise expenditure at the present time. It is not necessary for me to go into details as to the requirements and the calls that are being made on the poorer sections of the community. This is an enormous expenditure of £9,000 a year, with an initial expenditure of £15,000, and I seriously think the Government would be wise in deferring the setting up of this school until better times come, until the cry for bread has been eased, until the cry for milk and butter, which has been so intensive here in Dublin during the past few weeks, has died down, until starvation has ceased to confront the peoples of Europe and until more settled conditions generally confront our people. It is unwise for our people to indulge in expenditure of this kind at present, and I ask the Minister to withdraw this proposal. It is very unnecessary and very unwise in present conditions.

Mr. Corish

I also wish to oppose this proposal. Usually, when members on this side ask that certain branches of social services be increased, when we ask for such things as increased wages for Government or local government officials, we are met with the cry by the particular Minister: where will the money come from? It might possibly be considered laughable that one should associate sums like £5,000, £9,000 and £15,000 with such a question, because they may be regarded as very small amounts, but if we are to engage in such schemes as these, even though the expenditure is to some extent small, it is quite possible that the cost of a collection of such schemes would go a long way towards providing increases in certain social services, increases which are absolutely necessary at present. The Minister for Health told us the other evening that it would cost £1,000,000 to grant an increase of 2/6 per week to 150,000 old age pensioners. While not suggesting that the cost of this proposal would substantially alleviate the plight of the old age pensioners, I suggest, in all sincerity, that it would at least be a contribution towards some increase in the small allowances which people like old age pensioners have at present.

Even if we do not consider that money of this type should be spent on the alleviation of distress among certain sections of the community, might I, with respect, suggest to the Minister that not alone should he conduct research into the earth, the stars, the ocean and the winds and the effect of energy on matter, but he might do a little more in the matter of research into tuberculosis. Here is a field in which many of our medical men and many of the intelligentsia in Ireland would have full scope, in trying to combat this white scourge which is the dread of every family and every individual in the country. It is next to unemployment in this country. If the Minister does not want to set up an institute to inquire into tuberculosis, he could devote this money and other large sums to the general education of our people.

My humble opinion of the setting up of this institute is that it will avail the plain people absolutely nothing. It is a brand new sphere and, as the Minister says:—

"To put it in homely terms, the aim of cosmic physics is to find out all about the world in which we live and to apply that knowledge to the betterment and advancement of human life."

I suggest that if the Minister and members of the Government found out a little more about the Irish people and the way in which they live, they would be doing a little better than they will do by setting up an institute, which is to cost the country £9,000 per year, with an initial expenditure of £15,000.

I oppose this proposal because I regard it as being entirely contrary to the statements we have heard from the Government Benches during the past three or four years. They have accused us of advocating reckless expenditure. True, this is a small amount of money, but these small amounts would be a small contribution towards the alleviation of distress amongst certain sections of the community who are suffering sorely at present.

I wonder where Deputies stand in this matter. We heard Deputy Halliden last night advocating the expenditure of £20,000 on the restocking of the country with grouse and pheasants in order to induce more visitors to come in and to eat the already meagre rations we have here. I cannot understand how any Deputy could advocate the expenditure of £20,000 last night and to-day talk about the other uses to which this money could be put. I suggest that the £20,000 which Deputy Halliden was looking for last night would be much better spent in looking after the poor and would give much better results.

It may reveal the depth of my ignorance, but when I read this motion on the Order Paper, I assumed that cosmic physics had something to do with cosmetics, and that one of the functions of this institute would be to provide new types of lipstick, face powder and other commodities of the kind. I find now, reading the English version of the Minister's introductory statement, that cosmic physics has to do with the various planets circulating through space. I am inclined to think that it possibly would have been better to have utilised this money on cosmetics, because——

This is national cosmetics.

——it might at least have brightened up the general community. This, however, as Deputy Mulcahy points out, is a sort of face-cream which the Government are inclined to apply in order to make it appear to us poor ignorant citizens what a superior type of Government we have and what a superior type of Taoiseach we have at the head of that Government. It is a form of national cosmetics or windowdressing and a form which ought to be sternly resisted and opposed. I know that it is perhaps undesirable that citizens should set their faces against the pursuit of knowledge where there is a genuine pursuit of knowledge, but in this case the pursuit of knowledge is not genuine.

In matters of this kind we must have a sense of proportion. There are thousands of boys and girls leaving the national schools at present who can hardly read or write, and before we start soaring into the higher levels and meandering through space, we ought to see that our young people get a proper fundamental education, that they are given such an education as will enable them to make their way through life in the difficult years that lie ahead. I think that any expenditure that we would like to provide for the pursuit of knowledge would be better utilised in educating our young people not only in the fundamental subjects, but also in technical subjects which would be helpful to them in making a livelihood. The amount of money involved in this motion is not very large, but it is large enough to demand serious consideration. An initial expenditure of £15,000 and £9,000 per annum is just another additional brick added to the load that is at present crushing the general taxpayer. I think that the House ought to have no hesitation whatever in rejecting this motion most emphatically.

As Deputies have pointed out, there are so many urgent crying needs for which public money can be utilised that we ought not to go experimenting in these wide and distant fields. I remember as a very small boy of seven or eight being informed that the earth was a globe revolving through space, that it was part of a solar system, that that solar system itself was only a very small part of the general system of planning of the heavenly bodies and that space was unlimited. Even at that age I began to think over what that meant. Where did space begin and where did it end? Having a logical mind, I came to the conclusion that it had no beginning and no end and I arrived finally at the frightening conclusion that everything connected with material existence was insecure and unstable unless we place our confidence in some superior supreme intelligence guiding and directing all things.

I am convinced that all this investigation and inquiry, while it might bring some good, might also bring evils, might add to the uncertainties of life and, possibly, not add much to our general knowledge. The discovery of atomic energy, of means of splitting the atom, has not contributed very greatly to stability and security in the life of humanity. It is better for us to keep near things which we understand and know and as a nation keep near to the problems which are pressing on our immediate existence. If we concentrate upon the immediate problems that face us, even the problem to which Deputy Corry referred, that of providing some amenities for our people and, possibly, establishing a little new industry for developing an existing industry, or, to take the matter which was before the House last night, increasing the production of game, fowl and other things of that kind which are all useful in their own way, I think it would be much more desirable than this futile, foolish and, I think, insincere pretence of seeking higher knowledge.

Why, oh why, will not the Deputies of the Opposition call to mind that when the Taoiseach goes on the rampage the particular line of country that he happens to be travelling is not at once manifest? The sure and certain guide as to whither he is going and where he wants to lead the dance is to be found in The Prince, by Machiavelli. On page 178 of The Prince, by Machiavelli——

I am not willing to hear Machiavelli on this. Furthermore, this is not a Vote for the Taoiseach's Department; it is a motion to approve of the establishment of a School of Cosmic Physics.

I am going to stand over my rights. I am going to give reasons why an attempt is being made to provide funds for the establishment of a fraudulent school of cosmic studies in this country. I am going to make a mighty good fight to get a chance to say it. It has been laid down that a prince desiring to retain his principality should act the part of the fox and the lion.

I am not prepared to hear the Deputy read Machiavelli.

I am not reading anything.

I am saying that it has been laid down by political pundits that a prince who desires to retain his principality does well to act the part of the fox and the lion. The pity is that so many Deputies do not recognise the fox when he is abroad and fall into the jaws of the lion. What is the position at this moment? It is not the Taoiseach's motion at all; the Minister for Education is responsible. But the scholar Taoiseach is here, leaving all the urgent calls on his time to be here to prop up higher learning in Ireland; will not miss a word of the debate, will not leave the House until the matter is disposed of and safely steered through. The Front Opposition Bench is talking about mastitis and contagious abortion. Other people are talking about old age pensions and others of such mundane matters as game fowl. The scholar Taoiseach sits there in lofty detachment, thinking only of cosmic physics.

It has been laid down that the prince desiring to retain his dominion could always acquire the reputation of being a great and remarkable man and in respect of every incident acting in a way which will be much talked of. We in this country not only provide the usual publicity when our great and remarkable man acts in a great and remarkable way, but we maintain a publicity claque.

We have a large publicity department attached to his person and my submission is that this motion is largely introduced for the purpose of providing material for that division over which Mr. Frank Gallagher presides to do a little publicity for the scholar Taoiseach. The rest of the Deputies in this House are common clay, ignorant, simple creatures. The scholar Taoiseach extracts from us from time to time the wherewithal to advance the cause of higher learning being himself, of course, a scholar rather than a politician. Mr. Skinner is even exhorted to write a book to explain that he is a politician by accident.

What has that to do with this motion?

Everything. There is no other explanation. I am entitled——

The Chair is entitled to rule on order.

And I am entitled to make a submission as to why this institute is being set up. We are not bound to assume that this is being done out of a lofty love of learning, because that is a fantastic falsehood. We are entitled to make the submission—and I am going to make it——

The Deputy is not prevented from making any submission which is in order.

My submission is that it is being done for the purpose of securing cheap and fraudulent publicity for a discredited administration. And that is the plain truth. Politician by accident ! You can fill it all in just like a jig-saw puzzle. I recollect a "Life of de Valera" for which Deputy Childers, Parliamentary Secretary, was once called to order for reading in the House. There it was described that politics were an insufferable ordeal for him: that, really, his happiness was to be detached from all mundane affairs and left free to wander in the higher realms of mathematics, where few could follow him. This is the spectacle we are being entertained to now—himself and the cosmic physicist sitting over in Merrion Square rise in the cosmic ether while the ignoramuses of the Fine Gael Party, and the Clann na Talmhan Party and the Labour Party are occupying themselves with old age pensioners, and cows, and contemptible considerations of that kind. I can imagine the boys beyond, who have not the faintest notion of what cosmic physics is, will go down and deliver orations below, and the farther they get from Dublin the closer they will get to the proposition that de Valera is inventing an atomic bomb to blow all the enemies of this country sky-high.

Will the Deputy, in accordance with Standing Orders, refer to the Taoiseach as the Taoiseach?

Certainly I would unless I was quoting the boys down at the crossroads. They will not refer to him as the Taoiseach. I can imagine Deputy Kissane in some remote quarter of County Kerry, when he was sure there was no Press reporter present——

Deputy Kissane can look out for himself.

I have no doubt. ——murmuring that it is strongly rumoured that in this institute a super-atomic bomb is going to be manufactured to confound the enemies of this country. The ridiculous thing is that he will be believed. But the Irish-American will publish a story to say that, thank God, Ireland at last——

And the Deputy considers that relevant?

It is the sole purpose for which this motion is introduced.

The invention of an atomic bomb?

Not at all, but just one other dirty fraud on our people, paid for out of our people's money. Now, I know it is not fashionable to say that. I know that that kind of observation shocks the respectables in this country but it requires to be said and they will find all the confirmation of it they want in the works of the most astute political theorist who ever brought open to paper and, while I am not allowed to quote him in this House, at least I can give a very good hint to those who want to find out where the information can be got. There is no need to instruct the Taoiseach because he knows that book by heart. He was studying it when he landed in America. Dr. McCartan saw him draw it from the pocket of his long black overcoat the day he landed in America. He was studying it in 1919 and he studies it still.

The sum of money involved in this particular piece of fraud is not substantial, and that is where Deputies on this side of the House go wrong. Our people are not fools and it will cut no ice to go out and tell our people that the whole economic fabric of the State is going to be undermined because we are going to spend £50,000 on cosmic physics. They have seen too many jobs done down the country, roads built to nowhere, in order to prop up some crumbling Fianna Fáil T.D., which cost that much and more.

And that is relevant?

I am warning the Opposition that to oppose this proposal on the ground of expense is fatuous. Nobody believes them; nobody will listen to them and those who understand them will laugh at them. Of course, the old warhorse knows that well and they have fallen into his trap. Fifty thousand pounds in order to place us in the front rank of European learning! But, here is the real evil of this and it is an evil that was foreseen by Deputy McGilligan as early as the first day that the first Bill to establish this institute was brought into the House. I remember his saying in this House, and I did not believe him at the time:—

"So truly as we are standing here, this institute will be used ultimately for the purpose of undermining the universities. It is being set up as a rival institution and the ultimate object is to turn the National University into a kind of technical school, all higher learning and research will be gradually removed over to Merrion Square, to the Institute of Higher Learning."

That policy has been steadfastly pursued ever since this institute was set up. I do not expect the poor blockheads sitting on the far side of the House to understand that. You want to be fairly astute to follow the workings of the Taoiseach's mind. He cannot control the university. Therefore, he will destroy it—and that is what he is trying to do. Not one penny has been added to the grants to the National University generally. There have been certain small sums given to certain departments but, broadly speaking, there has been no addition to the endowments of the National University over a period when the student body has doubled in number. What is the result?—That no additional staff can be employed. What has followed on that?—That the professors of that university, having the assistance, perhaps, of one or two lecturers, are required to spend a large part of their time giving pass lectures, with the result that they are prevented from doing the work they are primarily fitted to do, the work of research, which would bring lustre and distinction to the university to which they belong; and actual shortage of money deprives them of the essential equipment without which they are trying to struggle on in the scientific departments of the National University at the present time.

The Deputy will have an opportunity of stating all that on the appropriate Estimate.

I want to state it now.

Because I want to say that it is a monstrous thing to vote £50,000 for this piece of fraud and codology when the granting of that sum annually to the National University would lift it out of a very large part of its difficulties and enable the science faculty of that university, if Dunsink were conveyed to it, to do all the work that it is proposed the institute should do under this scheme. Why should we withdraw from a university which, God knows, we had trouble enough in building up, the primary work which the scholars of our own country ought to be afforded an opportunity of undertaking? Mind you, our refusal to give to the university those endowments which are being given to the institute is resulting in the best students leaving the country when they become qualified, in order to seek wider and better opportunities abroad. The plain truth of it is that very few respectable scholars of independent mind would be seen dead in the institute. From the day that the regulation was laid down——

The institute as such does not arise. The Dáil approved of the institute and granted money for it.

The Dáil did not make the regulation that no person working in the institute——

The Deputy discussed that point already on the Estimates and will have an opportunity of doing so again.

But surely I have a right to refer to it now, in relation to the institute to be set up under this resolution?

One school is to be set up.

Surely it is necessary to discuss, in relation to the new school, the experience that we have had of the schools that have been established already?

There is a general rule laid down, with the approval of the Minister for Education, that any scholar on the staff of the institute, who does an independent piece of work, may not publish that piece of work if it has not had the approval of the head of the institute. The rule does not say that, inasmuch as these men receive an adequate salary, they must offer the institute their work, and only in the event of the institute electing not to publish it in the institute journal will they be permitted to offer it elsewhere. The rule says that unless the director of the institute permits them to publish it, they must tear it up or resign from the institute. What respectable scholar in the world would consent to such a rule? Of course, the result of it is that they do not, and we have seen gradually a more and more motley collection being gathered on the staff of the School of Irish Studies and the School of Mathematical Physics for the excellent reason that you could not get decent men to go on.

It is true we may get, in the initial stages of this new school, certain men who are refugees and who will be glad to accept any conditions provided they are given an opportunity of working at all. But we are doing that at a time when the National University, to which 99.9 per cent. of the students and future scholars of our race will go for their education, is so starved of money that it is incapable of giving the students already there a full education.

I assert, with confidence, that we are pursuing that course of conduct solely and exclusively to gratify the vanity of one extraordinary man who wants to present himself before the world as an exception and as a model, and who is able to prevail on the little men with whom he surrounds himself. It is the common quality of the dictatorially-minded person that he cannot bear to associate with men of independent minds, and so we have the Minister for Education sitting beside the Taoiseach. Can you imagine a man who holds himself out to the country as being responsible for education suffering the National University, which has no endowments of any kind except those provided by this Parliament, to be deprived of the essentials of efficient work for the want of money while we add one annual charge on to another for a so-called Institute of Higher Studies, the record of which in higher studies to date leaves much to be desired? Let us face the fact that some of the publications which have come from that institute to date—from the School of Irish Studies—reflect no credit on the institute. At least one of them contained errors which would disgrace the thesis of a very, very modest M.A.

I protest most emphatically against this foolish and dishonest pandering to the Taoiseach's vanity—because that is the purpose of this motion. I protest against it, not on the fantastic grounds that £50,000 will bring the economic structure of this State crashing to the ground, not on the grounds that, if we provide money for learning to the tune of £50,000 we will not be able to investigate mastitis and contagious abortion, not on the grounds that if we provide £50,000 it will be impossible to feed the fowl, not on the grounds that this is to be an institute for the development of cosmetics and lipstick, but because at this instant, when it is proposed to make this money available for this foible of the Taoiseach's vanity, the National University is starved of money, the efficiency of that university is being dragged down by the inadequacy of its grants, and the students of that university are being denied the amenities to which they are entitled and which they ought to have, if their full capacity is to be given an opportunity to develop.

All that is being done of set purpose in order to represent that university as something little superior to a technical school while scholarship and learning are to be orientated to Merrion Square. That is a crime against our people. That is an iniquitous injury to the university which has been so painfully built up in this country. I can foresee the time when that university will be so disorganised, as a result of this studied policy of undermining it, that a proposal will be brought into this House to have it reorganised from top to bottom on a new plan because it has so manifestly collapsed under the older dispensation. I think I can see the gentleman appearing on the horizon who is scheduled for the role of the great reformer under the aegis of the scholar Taoiseach, but I want to tell him something. The plot may be laid and the scheme developed but the fruit of their scheme will be Dead Sea fruit because, no matter how pious their protestations, if they consult their colleagues in the university to which their loyalty should be engaged, they will displace the vain and foolish man responsible for this position, that plot will be undone, those who take part in it will be stripped of their ill-gotten authority and the true primacy of the National University will be restored as an independent citadel of learning, not under the patronage or the dictation of any political leader in this country but as a seat of learning with the same independence, the same freedom and the same sanctity that the judiciary should enjoy, with an income provided by the State ample to do its work and with no strings attached to it.

I warn Deputies that we are being asked now to partake in a grave injury to our National University and that if they persist on these lines they will live to regret it, but I am glad to think that those people who made it possible to create that university by their years of struggle, should it now be destroyed from within, will take the opportunity again to build it up on even more solid foundations when those who sought to encompass its ruin will be long forgotten in this country.

The Minister in his statement said that there has been a great development in this science over the last century. He went on to say:—

"This development has had numerous and significant reactions on human affairs in the spheres of medicine, industry, commerce and agriculture. The science is still so young and the territory yet to be explored is so vast that no one can forecast what discoveries are awaiting us and how they may be used to the advantage of our people."

It is on that vague statement that the Dáil is asked to vote or sanction the expenditure of £29,000 on this school. Surely to goodness the Minister in asking us to vote that large sum of money, should have made some attempt to enlighten ordinary members of the Dáil like myself on the developments which have taken place over past years and the developments which he anticipates will take place in future years? Surely it is his business, as Minister responsible for the introduction of this Estimate, to give us all information possible with regard to the advantages which this country will derive from the setting up of such a school and what are the wonderful blessings which the school will bring to the country in future? But the Minister carefully retrained from enlightening the House about the developments which took place in the past or the developments that are likely to take place in the future.

It is true that in a later portion of the speech he referred to what the School of Theoretical Physics has achieved, but again I say the ordinary Deputy is not aware of the wonderful results which that school has achieved. Again I submit it was the duty of the Minister to enlighten the House as to the results which that school has achieved. I certainly am not one who will agree to adding to the amount which education is costing the country at the moment. I do not believe that the country is getting value for the enormous amount of money we are spending on education. I do not blame the teachers, nor do I blame the professors for that. I blame the Minister and I blame the system. Anybody associated with business, anybody who has to engage apprentices, as some of us have to do rather frequently, realises only too well how backward educationally some of our young people are and how unfavourably they compare with youngsters, let us say, of a generation or two generations ago. Whether it is because of the fact that the system is so much overloaded that the teachers have no opportunity of teaching youngsters properly the ordinary elementary subjects, or for some other reason, the fact remains that youngsters are not so well equipped in their knowledge of elementary educational subjects as youngsters of a generation or two generations ago. I believe every Deputy will agree with me in that statement. Yet the Minister now proposes to add another £29,000 to the amount we are already spending on education, a bad system of education, in this country. That money would be spent to much better advantage, in my opinion, if the Minister set up a commission for the purpose of investigating the defects in the present educational system and for the purpose of making recommendations to revolutionise the whole educational system so as to bring it into conformity with modern needs and requirements and to eliminate the defects which are so apparent to so many people.

We are told by economists that the world is likely to suffer in the near future from the effects of a withering depression, a depression such as has followed every war or at least every war since the Napoleonic wars. Other countries are taking action for the purpose of devising ways and means to counteract that depression. I submit that in the present circumstances of this country and of the world, the Government would be much better engaged in introducing an Estimate for the purpose of setting up some sort of inquiry to make recommendations as to how this country could off-set the effects of that depression when it does come. How will the country endure the effect of the high scale of taxation during that period, and if that high scale of taxation is persisted in what will its ultimate effect be on the people of the country as a whole? These are subjects that are very pertinent to the lives of the ordinary people, subjects that, I submit, deserve immediate investigation. They are subjects which, in view of existing circumstances, require immediate attention.

We are told that we must keep abreast of other countries in scientific development. There is no doubt that science has been responsible for bringing wonderful blessings to the world. We have participated in the blessings of scientific development, but on the, other hand it must be admitted that scientific development, in certain directions, has brought much hardship and a curse on the world instead of a blessing. I frankly admit that while we should, so far as we are able, keep in touch with scientific developments in other countries, and should, so far as it is possible for us, make our own contribution to that scientific development and progress, I seriously suggest that in the present circumstances of this country we are not in a position to make that contribution, and therefore we should await better times and more favourable circumstances. There are crying problems at the moment which demand the attention of the Government. I do not believe that at any period during the last 25 years has the housing shortage been so acute as it is at present. In every part of the country there is a crying need for houses. That is the position that faces us in the cities and towns of the country and in this City of Dublin. Surely to goodness, these pressing and crying problems deserve the prior attention of the Government. In addition, the cost of living to-day is affecting every member of the community. Committees associated with charitable organisations in our cities and towns complain that the funds at their disposal are inadequate to meet the demands which are being made upon them. Yet, it is in these circumstances that the Government propose to spend money on the establishment of a school of cosmic physics which may or may not be of some advantage to this country in 50, 100 or 200 years' time.

The Minister, in his opening statement, carefully refrained from telling us what the advantages are which are likely to accrue from the establishment of such a school. Assuming that the school is set up, can we be told what advantages the country is likely to derive from it, or what advantages have been derived from the setting up of such schools in other countries? The Minister's statement from beginning to end was delightfully vague. It did not contain a scrap of information that was of any value to Deputies. The country surely can afford to wait for these highly intellectual projects. At the moment we are concerned more with the practical problems of life. They are pressing more heavily on the people every other day. It is on these problems that the Government should concentrate its attention and not on matters of an intellectual nature which can await attention for a later day. In these circumstances, I submit that the House would not be justified in giving the Government authority to spend money on the establishment of such a school. There are other problems which are more pressing and which demand the Government's attention rather than a problem of this character.

A few moments ago. I had intended raising a point of order. I avail of the opportunity now and will put the matter in a short statement. Ninety per cent. of the members of this House, or indeed more, do not know any Irish. They do not understand it when it is spoken. Yet, a Minister comes into the House and for a quarter of an hour reads out a statement in Irish. Other Ministers used to take the precaution of giving a short explanation of their proposals in the language that most of us understand. I do not know Irish, and I regret it. In my school days it was not taught. We had not the teachers of it. I have heard in private assemblies, and in various places, remarks to this effect: "Is it not very ignorant for so-and-so to speak Irish in the presence of the company and not let the company know what it is all about". I understand that the Government, or somebody representing the Minister's Department, has taken the precaution of circulating—because I take it he knew that most of the members of the House do not know Irish and I challenge anybody to say that I am wrong on that—a translation of the speech that he was to make to a privileged few in this House. Those of us, therefore, who did not get the translation and who could not understand his Irish are asked to sit here and listen to the debate, and then flock into the Division Lobby and vote for or against without knowing a word of what was said.

I appeal to the Taoiseach and to the Government in the best interests of the Irish language not to allow that to happen again. They should try to encourage us to understand what is being said. There are other members of the House who would like to say what I am now saying, but who do not want to admit that they do not know Irish. I am not going to pose and posture as some do—that they understand—and then go into the Lobby and vote for or against.

I do not know what this matter is about at all. I do not know what the Minister's case is. I was able to follow Deputy Dillon and Deputy Cosgrave and others who spoke in English. I could only gather, from what they said, what it was about. I understand there is some money wanted at the moment for something that is non-essential while other bodies such as the National University are being starved for money. If that is so, it ought to be explained by the Government. In all sincerity I want to say that I am not criticising the Irish language. I have said that I regret that I do not know it. I know that I am speaking for 90 per cent. of the members of the House, and I hope that this will not happen again. If it is necessary to speak in Irish in the House avoid giving a translation of what the matter is about to a few. To give a full translation to a privileged few in the House is not playing the game. It is not fair to those who represent city constituencies who do not know the language.

On the point of order, I understand it to be one of the rules of the House, having regard to the fact that Irish is the national language of this country according to the Constitution and legally, that one is not permitted to repeat in English what one has already said in Irish. It is a good many years ago since I myself was held up when I tried to do that. When I speak in Irish I try to provide the Leaders of the Parties with a copy of the statement in English. I do not think it is necessary to provide each member of the Dáil with a copy.

Why not?

If Deputy Byrne's demand were to be carried to its logical conclusion, I think we would have to assume that every member of the House would get a copy. A number of copies are distributed, and I am sure that Deputies who are interested get one from the leaders of the Party.

I want to say that as an elected representative I claim to be as much entitled to get a copy as any leader of a Party.

That has not been the practice.

We have to stand our election as well as anybody else. The votes of the people have put us here and we are as much entitled to a copy as anybody else.

The Minister says that this has been the practice and that nobody has ever translated his speech. I think that all the members of the House will agree that that is not so. I have heard several Ministers, after speaking in Irish for ten minutes or thereabouts, give a synopsis of their remarks in English, extending over a few minutes. That should have been done in this case.

Under the Constitution, English is on the same basis as the Irish language.

According to Standing Orders, a Deputy may speak in either Irish or English.

I am speaking of the courtesy of Ministers to ordinary Deputies.

We do not know what the motion is about and have no chance to speak on it.

It was not my intention to intervene but for the fact that Deputy Byrne referred to the statement made in Irish by the Minister. I happen to be one of the younger members of this House whose school attendance was comparatively recent. I have a fairly good grasp of the Irish language. If I had been present during the Minister's speech, I should have understood the greater part of it, though I must confess that I am not as fluent in Irish as the Minister or the Taoiseach. At the same time, I should like to point out that there are members of the House who had not that advantage of attending school in the period when Irish was, perhaps, the principal subject taught. As I have said here on other occasions, I should rather see our young people getting good jobs with good wages and a decent standard of living than having them fluent in Irish and walking around looking for passports or lining up outside the labour exchanges.

The motion before the House is a further example of Fianna Fáil squandermania. If the Cosgrave, or Cumann na nGaedheal, Government had introduced legislation of this kind, they would have met with the severest criticism from the present Government. I think that this is a downright waste of public money. I believe that the £15,000 which the House is being asked to vote for the setting up of this institution will not be value for a straw so far as return to the ordinary people of the country is concerned. We are asked to provide £15,000 for the setting up of this institution and we cannot provide a penny to put a proper roof on our national schools.

Are we to go into the question of the condition of the national schools?

The Minister should have the manners to listen to what I say.

I rise to a point of order. I am prepared to discuss the question of the condition of the national schools but I suggest that that would not be in order on this motion.

The Deputy would not be in order in raising the whole question of education on this motion, but I think that he is in order in suggesting that there are other ways in which this money could be spent.

I should like to refer you to the Minister's opening remarks in which he spoke about this school being set up "chun cúrsaí léinn a chur chun cinn". If we are to discuss the measures to be taken to advance learning, we should be at liberty to discuss the foundations on which that learning is to be raised. We can hardly discuss this matter without referring in a general way to other branches of education.

Deputy Flanagan was dealing with the finance of the matter. The Deputy refers to "cúrsaí léinn", a different question altogether.

I was endeavouring to point out that the sum we are being asked to vote could be better spent in endeavouring to educate the plain people, by whom I mean the ordinary farmer's sons and workman's sons. The money we are asked to provide could be more wisely spent on other forms of education than by setting up this institution. I am very pleased to see the Taoiseach in the House. In his presence and in the presence of the responsible Minister, I say that it is my honest opinion that this institution is being established simply because there are a few hangers-on in the Government Party or some Government supporters who want soft and easy jobs. They are to be "lobbed" into this institution and to get a soft thing out of it. I believe that this is a step towards making jobs for certain citizens, and it should be met with the severest opposition.

If we are to spend money in financing education, we should start at the bottom, where it would concern the majority of our people. The workers' children and the farmers' children are, I am sorry to say, growing up in the height of ingnorance simply because they are not in a position to take advantage of the facilities which the big man's children can avail of. The Minister interrupted when I made a passing reference to the condition in which the schools throughout the country are at present. If this sum of £15,000—small as it is—were directed to the reconstruction and repair of some of the dilapidated national schools—even in my constituency the Minister's attention has been drawn to the condition of some of the schools— it would be wisely spent. It would help the people whom the Dáil should be most anxious to help. It would go towards the assistance of the poor man's university—the national school. As I pointed out before, many of us are products of that university. The vast majority of the Taoiseach's Party, who are now waiting to say "Yes" when he says "Yes", are the products of national schools.

I regret that it is proposed to spend money on the setting up of an institution such as this, which will be of no benefit whatever to the people. Is it not a downright disgrace to do that? We have no guarantee that the £9,000 a year which will be immediately required to maintain this institution will not be £25,000 or £30,000 in a few years. As Deputy Roddy asked, why did not the Government direct its attention to some other project by which the people would benefit? Does the Government think that we are living in a land flowing with milk and honey and that we are able to lash money about on nonsensical schemes such as this? I believe that we are in one of the greatest crises which ever affected the country. The Taoiseach and the Minister for Education know that there are people dying from absolute want, poverty and starvation.

The Minister knows that, in his own constituency—in Kilkenny—74 families in Butt's parish were completely flooded out during the best part of this year and last year simply because of the conditions brought about by the Nore. Would not £15,000 be better spent in trying to help some of the Minister's flooded constituents than in lashing it about in this way? As Deputy Byrne could tell us, there are people in the City of Dublin living under the most appalling conditions.

People at the present time, as the Taoiseach is aware, are flowing as quickly as possible out of the country and nothing is being done to try to provide work at decent wages for them. We have statements being made by the Government with reference to wages and, when it comes to the question of sanctioning increases, they always say it can never be done as the funds are not available. Then how does it come about that we are asked here for £15,000 so that we can lash money away? I do not care what the Taoiseach or the Minister may say was to why this institution is being established. I say that it is of no value to the people, that it is absolutely useless and that it is squandermania in dealing with the taxpayers' money—and, remember, it is the last straw that breaks the camel's back. Taxation is a burden which has been allowed to grow to such an extent that sooner or later there is going to be a financial crisis, as Deputy Kennedy from the Fianna Fáil Party said at a meeting of the local authority in the Midlands during the week. He said we are coming very near to a financial crisis, that the ratepayers and taxpayers will very shortly explode and protest against the heavy burdens of taxation being imposed on them by the present Government. There is a statement which has been made by one of the prospective Parliamentary Secretaries of the Fianna Fáil Government, Deputy Kennedy. Surely Deputy Kennedy's statement should have some effect on the minds of the two gentlemen sitting in the Front Benches of the Fianna Fáil Party?

Perhaps the Deputy would quote Deputy Kennedy's statement.

Deputy Kennedy stated at a meeting of Westmeath County Council during the week that taxation on the people was to such an extent that he feared a financial crisis. I say that this is an additional burden on the taxpayers. We have heard time and again that the Taoiseach and the Government were anxious to be as sympathetic as possible towards the taxpayer but instead of that we see that unnecessary burdens are being piled on every day of the week. I hope and trust that this House in its wisdom will see fit to reject such an unnecessary proposal as comes forward from the Government to-day.

If this country could afford it, I believe it would be well worth while gambling £15,000 on an institution such as this, if we were in as prosperous a position to-day as I should like the country to be. But the country is not by any means prosperous and, as the Government knows, it is as badly off as any European country to-day, from the point of view of hunger. While we are voting £15,000 for the setting up of a nonsensical institution, is it not a fact that it is only a week since we had plastered over every paper sold in Dublin about a family in County Westmeath that was living on hot water and potatoes for three weeks and had to be removed to the county home at Mullingar or Athlone suffering from hunger and starvation? Surely that is only one of the families suffering to-day. Such families can be found in provincial towns or in any city and nothing can be done or put in their way to relieve the distress and poverty that our economic condition has brought about by the responsible men sitting in the Front Benches of the Government. As far as I am concerned, I oppose in the strongest possible manner such a waste of public money. I did not think it would come to the day when we would have a Government introducing such wasteful proposals. It is a waste of the time of the House in discussing it, a waste of the time of the Minister, a complete, waste from start to finish. If the Government get their way and this money is voted to-day and this institution is established, it is being established for the purpose of giving the job-hunters of Fianna Fáil jobs.

The Deputy is repeating himself.

Regretful as I am at repeating myself, I may say it is not long ago since I drew the attention of the House to certain appointments being made in the Institute for Advanced Studies. I referred to those appointments by way of questions to the Minister for Education.

They do not arise here now.

With all due respect to the Minister for Education, I believe —and the Minister knows it—that the board which is to be appointed to maintain this institution will be appointed, when this Estimate goes through, by the henchmen of Fianna Fáil. They will be responsible for the board and they will control this institution. I hope and trust the House will see fit to vote against this nonsensical proposal, as the country is too poor. Even £15,000, which is a small sum, could be much better spent. If the Minister were anxious to advance education, he should start at the bottom with the working-man's child. The development of education in the national schools could proceed to a far greater extent if the Minister were anxious to assist in that way. This is going to be further squandermania which I, as one Deputy, am not prepared to subscribe to by any means.

I can quite sympathise with most of the Deputies who have listened to the Minister introducing this motion, but I can assure them, as one who had the advantage of looking at the translation of the document which the Minister read, that if they had the whole night to study the matter they would be no more enlightened than I am now. The Minister has confined himself more or less to a dictionary definition of cosmic physics. He told us amongst other things that the functions and duties of the school will include—

"the theoretical and experimental investigation of problems of cosmic physics, including astrophysics, cosmic rays, geophysics, meteorology and occanography"——

And codology.

——"and the possible application of the results of such investigation to problems of national economy."

I ask you in all seriousness where are you when you have studied that one sentence? Where would Deputy Byrne have been? Where am I? Where is any Deputy in the House?

Where is Deputy Walsh from Louth?

I feel like the famous character of Seán O'Casey's in Juno and the Paycock:“I says to myself `what is the stars?' ” So far as I can see, the Taoiseach and some of his pals on some social occasion have said to themselves: “What is the stars?” and they have proceeded to ask this House to subscribe £15,000, merely estimated capital expenditure, to set up an institute, and £9,000 a year, again estimated annual expenditure, to answer the question which Juno could not answer for himself in Juno and the Paycock. I think we are going from the sublime to the ridiculous in this country. At a time when this country has passed through numerous minor crises and is passing through serious internal crises involving fuel, transport and food problems for the community, at a time when the people are driven to desperation to know how to make ends meet, at a time when the cost of living has gone beyond all bounds and when the Minister for Finance admits that the main causes of the high cost of living are the influx of tourists, the high spending of these tourists, the extravagant taxation which has arisen in recent years and many other factors—at this time, above all others, we are asked to subscribe money for the fantastic project of solving “What is the stars?”

Again, we are told in this document that cosmic physics may be broadly divided into two big divisions—geophysics and astrophysics, and we are told that geophysics deals with the physical processes of the earth on which we live, the sea by which we are surrounded and the air around and above us. In all seriousness, I suggest to the Minister that it would have been more opportune to come to the House, at this critical juncture in our national affairs, to seek the support of the House in raising moneys to solve our social processes, and to find out what are the social processes functioning to-day which have brought about the present economic conditions of our country, what are the processes by which our taxation has gone beyond saturation point and what are the social processes by which the cost of living has overreached itself so that the average man and woman on earned income, whether wage or salary, find themselves in the position that they cannot make ends meet.

I would have supported any measure, no matter how extravagant it might appear, if it had for its objective the setting up of some sort of social and economic council which would investigate in a broad national way the various factors contributing to the unhealthy, economic, social and financial situation we have here to-day; but, instead, we get the extraordinary position that we are asked to subscribe money "to find out all about the world in which we live and to apply that knowledge for the betterment and advancement of human life". I would have much preferred to see the Minister and the Taoiseach coming to the House and asking themselves the simple, old question in the simple, old ballad: "How is dear old Ireland and how does she stand?" I ask them to search their hearts and find out to-day if their dear old country, which they found in a solvent, sound and stable condition in 1932, is not to-day rocketing and sky-rocketing.

Surely there is no sense of proportion in the whole proposal, because, as I see this proposal, it means that we are setting up an institute to examine all these things I have read out, which involves the examination of atomic energy, molecular energy. Are we really setting ourselves up in all seriousness to investigate these problems, because, if we are, £15,000 is only a flea-bite and spending £9,000 a year means simply throwing it into the river Liffey. It cost the Americans £500,000,000 to discover the first atomic bomb. Are we in all seriousness saying to ourselves that, by the miserable capital expenditure of £15,000, with an annual expenditure afterwards of £9,000, we will set up any effective research system here? I say no, and I should like to know from the Minister, and would have expected that at the outset he would have informed the House, who are the people who are to be employed on this research work. What are their peculiar qualifications for this extraordinary work? What is their past experience? Are they aliens or native Irishmen? Are we setting out to find out some military secrets or something which will benefit humanity? But whichever road we are setting out on, I say that this sum is so miserable that it could not possibly give us any practical results.

I ask the House, and particularly Deputies on the Government Benches, to realise what the proposition before them is. I do not believe that there is a Deputy on the opposite benches who knows anything about this proposal, who has the foggiest idea of what it is because he has not been told, he has not seen the Ministerial statement and has not, I am sure, followed the Ministerial Irish, as read out. I ask any Deputy, if he were independent, if he would subscribe to that proposal and I say emphatically 100 per cent. "No". It is for these reasons that I feel that this proposal is inopportune. It is fantastic in these times of stress and hardship, and if the Government want to devote themselves to research problems, there are plenty research problems at their hands. The economic and social condition of our country is such at the moment that it behoves the Government to move fast to see what are the causes of the distressful times we are experiencing now, and I ask them to withdraw this proposal.

What is proposed here is that there be added a further school to the existing Institute of Advanced Studies. When the Bill was introduced here for the founding of that institute, although it had to be introduced at a time when there was a great world war on, there was a proper understanding shown by some of the speeches from the opposite benches of what was involved and what was its purpose.

But it was opposed.

The time may not have been the most favourable, a world war being on, for establishing here an Institute for Higher Studies, but we believed that it should be done, and as a result of its establishment at that period, we have five or six years of valuable work done by the schools that were established. If we are to keep this country in a position in which it will be able to take advantage of the advancement of science throughout the world in the coming years, it is desirable that we should lose no time about putting ourselves in a position to do that. A school like this will not be able to exercise its full influence for some years. If, because of the sort of criticism we knew we were going to have from the opposite benches, we were to hold back and say we will wait until things are more favourable, until the sort of criticism that we have had from the opposite benches will not be so likely to be availed of, then valuable years would be lost. On that account we are proposing to do it now and not wait.

In order to bring this into proper focus, I might perhaps point out what were the considerations which suggested the establishment of the two schools already established. First of all, there was a School of Celtic Studies. I had got from some Irish scholars a programme of work which it was desirable in the interest of our position as an independent nation should be carried out. There was work in that for scholars for generations. There were texts which had to be edited, investigations of various kinds which had to be carried out, dictionaries and grammars for the benefit of students which had to be produced. If that work had been left to the institutions in existence, it would take a very long time. The purpose was to try to establish an organisation which would enable that work to be done systematically by people who are able to give their whole time to it. The idea was to make this country, as it ought to be, the natural centre for Celtic studies. A considerable part of the study of the older forms of our language had been carried on in the past on the Continent. We had got inspiration, so to speak, from the Continent. The pioneer work was done on the Continent. As a result of that, we had some Irish scholars at home and we were anxious that they should be able to train new ones, that an opportunity should be given to those who are pursuing the study of the language in its older, middle and modern forms in the university colleges of devoting themselves to that study and continuing in it and giving us material by which later professors and lecturers in the various universities in which they could be secured would maintain that scholarship.

The school was founded. About ten of the scholars of the world who were regarded as Celtic scholars have disappeared and, if it had not been for the establishment of this school, the continuance of these studies would be in jeopardy. There is a vast amount of work to be done by that school. If I were criticising it from the outside, my only criticism would be that it had not expanded more, as it could, because it was intended not merely to be a School of Irish Studies, but to be a School of Celtic Studies.

Will the Taoiseach detail some of these studies?

I do not know what the Deputy wants.

He is talking about certain studies and the work that he required the school to do.

That, I believe, could be done. For instance, I would imagine, if it is to be a School of Celtic Studies, that we should have somebody there who was an outstanding Welsh scholar.

What would he do?

He would be doing work which would help those who wanted to see the philological and other connections between the Irish language and the Welsh and other Celtic languages.

And that is all.

That is portion of it. If the Deputy wants me to justify going back into the past so far as the history of languages is concerned, philology or any of the other subjects, I would have a new subject to deal with. I take it for granted that it is a creditable and valuable branch of learning from the point of view of human culture—that there should be a going back into our origins, whether they be linguistic or otherwise. The work, therefore, that I think should be done by the school would be not merely to make it the centre of Irish studies for the world, but the centre of Celtic studies for the world, so that those, whether they be Welshmen or Bretons or philologists from the Continent, who wanted to come to an institute in which they would get the highest and deepest knowledge of these subjects would come to Ireland for it.

That has not been done and probably there is good reason so far for not doing it. But, as I have said, there is an immense amount of work to be done by that particular school, both in regard to our own language in its various forms and its relationship with the other Celtic languages. If my will were to determine the matter, not merely would I have there a Welshman and a Breton, but I would also have an authority on Scottish Gaelic. If we had that, we would have a centre which would be looked up to by the whole world as a centre for those who wanted to pursue those studies in the universities of America or on the Continent. Their professors would be coming over here to get that knowledge. I believe it will come to that yet and that those who have decided not to go ahead on the particular lines I have indicated at the moment are probably satisfied that they are laying a better foundation by going slowly. Is there anybody in the House who says such a school should not be established?

We opposed the Bill.

We thought, and the majority thought, and I believe the majority of our people think now, that those who opposed it were wrong. It was suggested that it was taking work away from the university colleges. That is all nonsense. There was no question of taking any endowments of any kind from the university colleges. There was no suggestion whatever that the university colleges were in any way whatever to have the level of their studies reduced; quite the contrary. By having such a centre, it would stimulate the professors. A certain amount of their time could be given to research, but the greater part of their time would have to be given to teaching. A certain amount of research work could be done and is being done and will be done. At present there is a scheme of travelling studentships in the university. They send students to scholars abroad presumably because in these places there is some special knowledge which perhaps is not available in the particular university college. Is there anything wrong in the suggestion that students from Cork, Galway or Dublin, instead of being sent, as formerly, to Bonn and elsewhere, would be sent to the Dublin institute to pursue some of their advanced courses? Of course, there is not.

I admit, and I hold very strongly by it, that there is a certain advantage in going to another country but is there any reason, when there are suitable students available for post-graduate studies, why they should not be sent to the institute to pursue those studies, where they could pursue them in common—students from Trinity College and the three colleges of the National University and St. Patrick's College, Maynooth, or any other recognised college? Is there any reason why these could not be brought together from their own particular colleges and brought into the institute to pursue their studies? It is in that way that you will have scholarship in these languages advanced and the material for your professors and lecturers improved. As I say, if that was opposed, then I think those who did oppose it were wrong. We hold, at any rate, that they were wrong and the majority at the time held that they were wrong, and I do believe that the Irish people hold at the present time that they were wrong.

The great authority on Celtic studies, Deputy Dillon, tells us there was no work done. That is not so. There is a considerable amount of good work being done. It was suggested that two Celtic scholars had to leave it. It was not the fault of the institute. Neither was it any fault whatever of the organisation of it, or of its rules, that these professors left. I had a good deal of conversation with them before they left and I know precisely the fundamental basis of the change. Nominally, it occurred because a student who was coming into the institute at the time could have held on to his own position. He would have been relieved from it, to go back, if he wanted, after a period of one year or two years' probation. When he had a position that he could go back to, it was desirable that he should avail of that rather than that he should be put in a position in which those who were in the institute would feel they would have some obligation to keep him on. That was the immediate cause of the break. Nobody regretted it more than I did. The fortunate thing is that the work is being done, that the two men are still doing work in that particular branch, not in the institute. I regret it, but that is not the fault of the institute. Human beings being human beings, you will have difficulties, personal and other, between individuals and these are things for which it is most unfair to blame a school, or anything else.

However, the main thing I set out to say was that that school was deliberately founded for very good purposes, that it is serving these purposes and, if I had to start again as one to promote it, I would promote it to-day with the same feeling that we were doing the right thing as I had then.

The other school that was put up was the School of Theoretical Physics. The reason that theoretical physics was chosen was because it was an advanced branch of learning in which a relatively small sum of money had to be spent. The theoretical physicist does not want very much more than a library and pens and pencils. He does not want the elaborate and expensive equipment that the experimental physicist in some branches would require and, as it happened, at the time there was a man of the front rank, if not the very first, of theoretical physicists in the world available to come here as a professor. Advantage was taken of that. Again, just as in the case of the School of Celtic Studies, there was no question of depriving the universities of something. As a matter of fact, the curious thing about all this is that the university professors who were involved or who would be those who might be most affected—those who were interested in the particular subjects in question— were all in favour of it, welcomed it and welcome it to-day, and have availed of the advantages of the school. That school has been a stimulus to the professors and lecturers in these subjects in all the colleges. They know that there they are dealing with men who are in the foremost rank and they are, accordingly, stimulated.

They know that any of the problems that can be tackled anywhere in the world can be tackled by that school in so far as theoretical physics is concerned. That is a tremendous thing for an advanced student doing post-graduate work in any college and it is of tremendous advantage to the lecturers and even to the professors in any subject to be able to know that they have in their midst such a man and that when they are speaking on particular subjects they are dealing with a man who has gone to the very frontier of knowledge in the particular subjects. It could not fail to be inspiring. I have seen where there have been at conferences and lectures professors and lecturers in these particular subjects, not merely in theoretical physics and pure mathematics, but also in experimental physics and chemistry. These men have come to the conferences to listen to the lectures of this man and his present colleagues. Because of the reputation of the director, we have been able to get the highest authorities to come to that school to give lectures. I say, as I said in the case of the School of Celtic Studies, that if we were faced with the position again of asking is it in the national interest that such a school should be established or not to-day, and we were quite free and had no commitment of any kind to say "yes" or "no", I would unhesitatingly say "yes".

Could you be wrong?

I would not be wrong.

You were often wrong before.

That may be, and all I can do is to put my judgment against the Deputy's in the matter——

The Deputy is wrong in interrupting.

——and to put the opinions of the majority of this House against the minority and, ultimately, to put the opinions of the majority of the electorate against the opinions of the minority.

On the School of Cosmic Physics?

The people of the country are not so foolish as the Deputy would have us to believe and they know when the Deputy is talking through his hat——

I do not think they are as foolish as the Taoiseach thinks they are.

——and when he is trying to bamboozle them. You have these two schools. I believe they have justified themselves. I believe that if you were to take a vote of the professors in the various colleges who have been associated, that they would by an overwhelming majority support that school and support its continuance. What is proposed here is to add another section.

As I have said, experimental physics in certain branches can be very expensive. Some of the work that has been done in certain branches of modern physics has been so expensive that it can only be engaged in by very wealthy nations, corporations, universities or institutes. There can be no question of our entering upon these particular fields, but there are certain branches of experimental physics which are not so expensive, which are on the very frontiers of knowledge, in what you might call the pioneer position, where new fundamental work can be done. The aim was to try to seek here, in what was intended to be and what should remain a school of advanced research, at what point you could have this advanced research without putting yourself to the huge expenditure necessary for some of the other branches.

During the emergency we had to set up a bureau of scientists to get us out of some of the difficulties in which we then found ourselves. They did very good work. For example, there were certain minerals that were required. There had to be a certain survey and they had to get a geophysicist in order to do that. There was no geophysical survey made in this country such as has been made in most other countries. Now, that is not work which would be done by the university in the ordinary way; it would not ordinarily come into the work of the university. It is generally done by some State institution.

What kind of work is it?

As the Minister pointed out, geophysics means the study of the physics of the earth—that is the broad sense in which it is used. There are various branches of it. Some of these are capable of being utilised and are of immediate and practical value. One branch would be that of a magnetic survey—to ascertain how the earth's magnetism changes from point to point and to be able to tell what changes in the magnetic meridians would take place over a period.

Had that to be done here during the war?

I did not say that.

What kind of geophysical work was done during the war?

I indicated that it was in connection with the location of minerals, one of which was pyrites.

There were pyrites in Cork 50 years ago.

There were others that might not have been known here were it not for the investigations that were carried on. The main question was what was the amount there in the area under investigation. Other questions had to be considered, too. It was brought to our notice that there had been no geophysical survey of this country and that certain things known in other countries as a result of such surveys were not known here. It was considered desirable that a survey should be carried out here. It was felt that the whole question of geophysics had been largely neglected, and that was impressed upon us both from the theoretical and the practical point of view. It seemed that the best solution that could be got for that was to have a school in the institute in which that particular part of experimental physics would be studied and developed, with particular reference to our country and our needs.

It so happened that we had here already in the State service a man who had been a professor of geophysics. As the Minister pointed out, geophysics refers not merely to the solid substances of the earth, to its various properties and characteristics and all the things that belong and happen to it, but also to the fluid side, the atmosphere and so on. When aviation was being started here we had to set up a meteorological department and in order to staff that department we had to go outside the country. It is an expanding department. We will want more staff, and the point is whether it would be better to have these trained at home, so that Irishmen will be capable of filling these positions, or whether we shall have to advertise and bring people in from outside.

We had a man here who was quite capable of training persons for such posts. Already he had, by competition, got into the meteorological service here. He had been a professor of geophysics and meteorology and he could teach our young people. It was a question whether we would continue the old position of advertising in order to get people from outside or train our own people here. It was considered more desirable that we should train those who might be likely to enter as candidates for our own meteorological service. The professor was available and there was good reason, therefore, for establishing that particular branch of geophysics, including meteorology.

For some years past there has been a standing reproach to our country. Dunsink Observatory, which had gained a world-wide reputation, was falling into ruin, mainly because it was suggested that our atmosphere here was not the best suited for observational astronomy. It had been used in the past, as other places had been used, for working out different observations taken elsewhere, mathematical investigations, etc. The point was: should we in this country have no School of Astronomy? When people talk about sciences, they should know at least that the oldest of them all, the one from the study of which most of man's knowledge about the world in which we live grew, was astronomy. It was called the Queen of the Sciences.

I thought it was agriculture.

I shall deal with that in a moment. One would imagine listening to Deputies on the opposite side that no attention was ever paid to these matters. I shall come to that before I finish, I hope. If we are talking of advanced studies and if we say that we should have no higher schools, would that not be an argument to use against higher studies of any kind? Is there to be no question of working up towards higher studies by at least some of our people? Is it not foolish to suggest that because you cannot bring everybody up to that higher standard, nobody should engage in these studies? The primary schools and the secondary schools will be inevitably affected by the standards attained in the universities and in the schools of higher studies.

The Taoiseach did not interrupt the Deputy and he must get a hearing.

As I say, Dunsink was there and it had an old world reputation. It was purchased by the State and an arrangement was entered into with Harvard University and Armagh so that whatever observational work was being done here would be supplemented by observational work that would be possible under better climatic conditions. There was a question of whether we should not continue with what had been a tradition with us, a great tradition with us, whether we should not continue with the institution at Dunsink and continue work in astronomy which is done by practically every nation in the world. Somebody spoke about our acting on a grand imperial scale. Finland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway—these are not grand imperial countries. Yet all these countries knowing that it is to the advantage of their citizens to cultivate these higher branches have such institutes as we are talking about. There is no suggestion that we should have things which only the United States of America, the Union of the Soviet Republics, Great Britain or some empire like that can afford. The work we are doing is paralleled by that done in small countries.

A Swiss, speaking to me the other day about his country said: "We have not been very richly endowed by nature as a country but we owe our standard of living at the present time to the fact that we have tried to have a high standard of education generally, that we have pursued education in the higher branches, that we have our institutes which enable us to get on. In matters such as the production of electricity and so on, we have been able to go out in the forefront. The skill of our people, the intelligence of our people, have been a great asset to our small country." The same thing could be true and is true here. It may be a sad thing to see Irish people go away from their native country but surely it is better for them and their families, if they have to go away, that they should go away a well-educated people who are able to take higher positions wherever they go, rather than that they should remain merely hewers of wood and drawers of water. Surely a thing we should aspire to is to develop the resources which God gave us. If you look over the history of science, the history of the products of the human mind in any country, you will find that Irishmen wherever they have gone have been able to get to the highest places. Therefore we regard this additional school as of great importance.

There was first of all the question of geophysics and meteorology which are of immediate value. Then there was the question of astronomy, continuing a tradition which we had, a tradition of which we have every reason to be proud. In regard to astronomy as I have said, on account of our climate, except from the purely mathematical point of view and the working out of what other people did, we did not expect to be able to do very much. I was speaking in the early stages of the institute to one who had been at Dunsink as Astronomer Royal and he said from the pure point of view of observations in astronomy we could not hope for a great deal. That delayed for a considerable time any progress in that direction but when the opportunity was given at a relatively small cost of joining with Harvard and Armagh on terms which enabled us to have the use of a telescope of the most modern type in a favourable situation, then the whole question of using Dunsink was revived. Consequently it is suggested here that we should have this new school to embrace not merely meteorology and geophysics. When you talk about the study of these subjects you do not mean that you intend to cover the whole field. What you can do is to cover a certain branch.

Science is so specialised nowadays that no worker can hope to become an expert in more than one special branch. The main thing is that if you can get useful men to engage in a particular form of research, it is worth while doing so. We had such men in the case of meteorology and physics and also in astronomy. For most modern work connected with theoretical investigations, particularly some of the investigations that were going on in the School of Theoretical Physics, and the study of cosmic rays, a man of first-class ability is available. A first-class astronomer is available and a first-class geophysicist. These are all available. The pursuit of the examination of cosmic rays brings these matters into close touch with the School of Theoretical Physics. One will react on, and help the other. So that to a certain extent work which is being done on the experimental side is being paralleled by that which is being done in regard to theoretical physics.

We are asked what is the practical use of all that. You might as well ask what is the practical use of higher studies or higher investigation of any kind. Nobody can tell. I was at a lecture some time ago at which this question was debated, the question of fundamental research as against what you might call the practical side. We set up here, on the practical side, an Institute for Industrial Research. Most practical-minded people will think, "Well, that is very near to the sod; that is going to be of immediate practical value and we will support it". I am not finding fault with that line of argument at all. It is natural enough, but the fact is that it is a short-sighted view.

I have no doubt whatever that, at a certain time, there were people who were spending a considerable amount of money thinking what were the best moulds for wax or tallow candles, and that you had rival firms of industrialists spending considerable sums of money trying to find out what was the best type of mould or candle wick. All that was of immediate practical value both to the industrialists who were producing the candles and the human beings who wanted better light. I am sure that, at the same time, there was a great deal of study going on as to the various kinds of oil, vegetable oils and so on, and as to the best type of wick and burner that should be used. We know that various developments took place as to the best methods to burn oil to give light. I have no doubt that experiments went on to improve the wick and to improve the burner in order that the various competing industrial manufacturers might produce the best article, and in order, as I have said in the case of candles, that human beings might have better light. But while all that was being done there was a man fiddling with magnets, with a few coils and a few batteries. I am sure that if, at that time, anybody got up in a deliberative Assembly like this and said: "We must give this fellow £4,000 or £5,000 for fundamental research," some others would get up and ask would it not be much better to spend that money in improving the "wicks" or improving the oil or improving the tallow mixtures than to be giving it to this fiddler who is doing nothing but playing about with his magnets, his coils and his wire. The fact, of course, is that the result of that man's work has produced something which has put the oil lamp and the candle altogether in the shade, so that to-day every one of us can, by pulling a switch, get light of whatever candle-power practically we want.

Not all of us—yet.

Not everybody, but I hope we will be able to get it for everybody. It is one of the things which the Government is trying to plan, so that the results of that piece of fundamental research done by that man will be available to all. I have no doubt that some of the people who would take advantage of that man's work would, if they were asked in a deliberative Assembly of that day to vote a sum of money, would talk in much the same way as the Deputies opposite are talking to-day.

Or as Deputy MacEntee talked of a white elephant.

But they are all very glad when, by pulling a switch, they can get all the light they want, and when they find that all the trouble about cleaning lamps and chimneys, and all the rest of it, has disappeared. Now, by pulling a switch they can get all the light they want, and very much better light than the lamps or the candles could give. This question is an old one: the question as to how much, if there is money available, should be given to what would be called industrial research and how much to fundamental research. That is an old question that could be debated until the end of time. Nobody can tell, when somebody is doing a bit of fundamental research, whether it can be made immediately available or not, but there is one thing that is quite certain, and it is that if any country neglects to equip itself by having men with the necessary knowledge it will remain backward, and all the time will be late in the race. Other countries at the present time are doing everything in their power to equip their scientists more and more because they know that in the future the world is going to be served very much more by science than it has been in the past. Tremendous advances have been made in the last century, and it is probable that the advances that will be made in the coming century will be still greater. Somebody has said that the atomic bomb was the result of this scientific research. So it is. People will always be able to abuse the benefits that they are given. However, that does not mean that these benefits should not be availed of properly.

I think I have shown the House how the school, which would include the most practical branches of geophysics, would be of great advantage. It would concentrate upon meteorology which would be of great use to farmers. Most people would like to be able to tell ahead of time, for instance, if you are going to have frost in a fortnight's time and if you could know exactly, say, what would be the depth of it. A considerable amount of money could be saved to the farmer if he knew that. It would also be of great value to him if, in the harvest time, he knew for certain that he was going to have a dry fortnight. The knowledge of that will not give it to him, but the knowledge that it is going to happen will enable him to take steps in advance to take advantage of it.

When can that be expected?

The Deputy is now asking me too much. The point is that at the rate at which advances have been made I would not be surprised if in half a dozen years or so, or we will say a decade, it will be possible to give a reasonable forecast to the farmer a fortnight ahead of time—that is, with world co-operation, and with each country studying its own particular conditions and the variations which these may cause. The matter is of such importance now, and such concentration is being put upon it, that we would be able to take advantage of it in a number of ways. A number of advances have also been made in the case of climatology—the climate and its effects on health and on the methods that should be adopted. These are all things that could be made of practical value. There are two steps to be taken. The first is to acquire a knowledge of the behaviour of things that will enable you to make a forecast and that will afterwards tell you what is going to happen and how things will happen. The second step is to make practical use of the knowledge that is got. As regards the picture given you by the Minister, that simply means that this school can devote itself to matters coming within the range of that picture. I need not tell you that the entire work covered by the picture is for all the scientists of the world. A number of countries are engaged in activity in one or other branch of what the Minister explained as coming within cosmic physics. Two or three professors engaged in special branches of that work will cover only an extremely limited portion of the field. They will deal with the portion which will be of most value from the point of view of getting information which is required or the application of information to our own particular set of circumstances. The value of having scientists in different countries engaged on these matters is that they will, naturally, be affected in their lines of research by the needs and conditions of the community amongst whom they are working. I hope that I have shown that this proposal is no wild dream and that it is not an extravagance. Virtually all the arguments which have been put up against it could be used against any branch of higher studies. They could be used against the study of philology and against investigation into atomic energy. These things will be studied in the universities, so that the arguments used against this proposal could be used against those and all other branches of higher studies.

The only argument I have to meet is: if this money is available, why not pass it to the universities directly? I think that I answered that argument when the institute was being founded. I said that, in the first place, there was no overlapping and, secondly, that the work being done does not detract from, but rather enhances, the work being done by the different departments in the various university colleges. The personnel of the colleges will come to a centre like that much more readily than they would come to another college. In the case of a school of theoretical physics—the same would be true of Celtic studies—you could have the professors and advanced students coming together at a central institute to deal with certain problems and devoting their combined knowledge to examination of those problems. This proposal does not detract from the value of the universities. Such institutes exist side by side with universities in virtually every country and it is not suggested that they detract from the value of the universities in those countries.

Are those universities without funds?

The Deputy has been talking about this proposal as if it were the deliberate policy of this Government to starve the universities. That is untrue from beginning to end. As a matter of fact, a very large scheme has been put up to us by the university colleges and that scheme is being examined at present—and, what is more, sympathetically examined. One of the chief pleasures we got from the acquisition of Iveagh House was that we were able to make an addition to what was built somewhat like a railway station, as University College had been built. We were delighted to make the gardens attached to Iveagh House available to University College as an amenity. Originally, the college was designed for the accommodation of 1,000 students. That number has increased to 3,000. I think that it would have been better to establish a second college, even though it might be situate in Dublin, because I believe we want to have a certain number of institutions of that type—colleges dealing with advanced studies—so as to have the necessary material for higher studies and the necessary volume of workers for particular matters. However, matters have developed otherwise. I have been over there on several occasions and I know that the accommodation is a disgrace. But when a matter such as that is brought to one's notice, one cannot, by the wave of a wand, cause large buildings to go up. I have been examining a scheme for the past year or so whereby University College would be able to have buildings right around Iveagh Gardens. More space than that would be required to provide sufficiently for the number of students.

What about providing them with equipment in the meantime?

I am the person who has been pressing the colleges most to make known their needs. There has been no question of a refusal. There has never been a case in which there was a refusal of any demand put up for equipment or anything else. We have paid debts which were incurred without telling us about them. If there is fault anywhere, it cannot be laid at the door of the Government. I am not aware of any demand made by the colleges for equipment or for a grant which was refused. If such has been the case, it has never been brought to my notice. There is a scheme under consideration which will involve, in buildings alone, several million pounds. As regards salaries, I am quite willing to admit—I have said so many times— that the salaries being paid to the professors of the universities at present are a disgrace. If we are to have as university professors men who are in the front lines of their professions, there should be given to them salaries which would be commensurate with the duties and obligations which are placed upon them.

That declaration makes a great deal of difference in regard to this token Vote.

It was much easier for the Deputy to suggest that I had some nefarious scheme for interfering with and degrading the National University. There was no suggestion as to why I should do that.

I asked four times about this question——

The Deputy has put a number of silly, trifling questions to various Ministers. It was open to him, or to any other Deputy, to put down a question with reference to the university. I have never seen such a question. If he was aware that equipment was being denied to them, he could have put a question to the Minister as to why we were starving the university and refusing to give it necessary funds. That has not been our attitude at all. The trouble with University College is that it grew very rapidly from what it was originally intended to be. There are now in attendance at the college three times the maximum number of students which it was originally intended to accommodate.

One Deputy who objects to this motion talked about the roofs on national schoolhouses. Does not the Deputy know perfectly well that there is a very large sum of money spent yearly in the upkeep of schools and, if there are still some in disrepair, it is due to the physical difficulty of getting materials and getting through the work? There has been no suggestion otherwise and it would be ridiculous to make one.

This is dealing only with a very narrow section. Of the 3,000 university students the number who will avail of any of these schools is relatively small. The intention was to make these schools places where we would have the material. First of all, there was work which clearly should be done in the interests of the country. Secondly, these would be places where the advanced students could get their further training, to enable them to qualify for any new university posts, instead of making the universities take people insufficiently qualified or go outside the country and advertise. The number of people directly and immediately taking advantage of these schools is trifling, compared with the number taking advantage of the university colleges. The sums of money spent are a fair indication of their relative importance and the sums spent are trifling compared with those spent on the various colleges or on education as a whole.

As a matter of fact, just before I came here to-day, I was with the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Education going over the various demands in regard to the salaries of the existing people, to see if we could take some account of the change in the situation since they were fixed last, owing to the rise in the cost of living. It is absolutely absurd to suggest that the policy of this Government has been to starve the universities.

The trouble is that, whether it is in the primary schools, the secondary schools or the universities, the amount of money necessary to make a really substantial change is becoming very large. For instance, as we saw in the case of the teachers, a relatively small change would mean a considerable addition to the annual burden. That is one of the troubles—if something is concentrated and small, you can look after it, but the moment it spreads and covers the national system throughout the country, the expense per unit multiplies very rapidly.

I hope that Deputy Dillon, having disabused his mind of the idea he had, will approach it now in the way he approached a similar question on a previous occasion. He approached it then in a reasonable way, but he has changed his attitude completely, on two grounds I cannot see the point of. He seems to think that the Minister interferes or that there are some rules which are interfering with the proper functioning of these schools. I think he is quite wrong there. Surely, it is not unreasonable to have a rule that, if a person is doing work in the institute—a student, let us say——

A member of the staff.

I would have to know more about it and go into details, so I am dealing now only in general principles. It is not unreasonable that a person who is going to publish material and who has been working in the school should have to consult somebody in authority, to see whether it is up to the standard or not. That was the main purpose of the rule. In the case of a member of the staff, I would say that the very fact that a professor has been appointed to a responsible position on the staff ought to enable him to stand on his own feet and take the responsibility. The only point there is that the institute should get credit for the work done.

Certainly.

I am with the Deputy there. If I were drawing up rules, I would say that students should have to show their work, but the staff could offer it and then take their own responsibility afterwards. If a man is found making a fool of himself, all you have to do is decide you were foolish enough to have brought in the fool and whoever had made the appointment had appointed a fool, or someone who is adjudged generally to be a fool. In the working of these schools, no case has ever been brought forward where there has been any interference in regard to matters of that sort. The only one case I ever heard of was one where it was relatively a trifle and certainly something that should not have led to what happened at the time and, in my opinion, would not have done so, if there had not been some other considerations.

Regarding the universities, who are the people appointed on the governing boards of these schools? Who are the people who are on the council? Are they not those who are actually in the universities? Are not the people governing the School of Theoretical Physics the professors, the people who are engaged in these subjects in the university colleges? It is obvious that they must in the main be in Dublin, in order to avoid long travelling, while the numbers are small. Look at the personnel of the governing boards of these schools. Is anyone going to tell me that a governing board and a council so composed are going to run that institute in antagonism to the universities or to the detriment of the university colleges? The thing is absurd, and I do not know how it got into anybody's head. I know it is being circulated, but there is no basis for it.

I am afraid I have kept the House a long time. I felt it was necessary to go into this matter, as it seems to have been dealt with in a completely wrong way. Some ask why we do not roof the schoolhouses. I have dealt with that. Some ask why we are not improving national education. By all means, let it be improved, press ahead and get the best in national education as well as in the secondary schools and the universities.

And why are you not pressing ahead in national education?

As far as I know, we are.

There has not been one change in 25 years.

If things are working all right, there is no reason for making a change.

Working all right?

If—I said if. The fact that we do not make a change proves nothing in itself. You need something more than that before you advocate a change.

You might have higher studies, but 80 per cent. of our students——

If it had to be a choice between higher studies and national education, I would prefer to see the national education improved; but I know that ultimately the standard we will have in national education will depend on the standard we have in the higher colleges. They go hand in hand, and you cannot divorce them without doing damage to the lot. By all means, let us do anything possible to give a higher standard to our people. I may be anticipating the report before it is published, but I have not seen it, so I speak independently— I believe we are losing a great deal of the work done in the national schools up to the age at which the students leave, by not giving them a year to consolidate their knowledge.

Hear, hear! It is about time to act on it.

Yes, but there are other things concerned. It is not so simple. One might as well say that, if you see anything good you act on it. There is the question of the means and the cost involved. There has been an examination of that, and it is better to wait until the examination is over. I have no hesitation in saying that, in my own personal view—as I have always held, or at least for a number of years, since I began to look into the question at all—the more of our people who can get higher education the better for our country as a whole. There are certain problems which the fact that our people are highly educated brings into our whole social system, but these are problems which should be faced and we ought not to hesitate on account of the problems introduced to go ahead on these lines. I believe, as I said before about the Swiss, that one of the great advantages, one of the principal assets, we have is the intelligence and skill of our people and we ought to work that skill up and try to take advantage of it to the utmost.

Why have we not got research work with regard to tuberculosis, some Deputy asked. We have. Actually, a body has been set up in an attempt to deal with the bacillus and fundamental research on that particular matter is going on at this moment. Yet people ask why we do not do that when they do not know that it is being done.

In the Institute of Higher Studies?

By the Medical Research Council, and for which special money was provided by the Government.

Through the universities?

No, specially to the Medical Research Council. That body is doing fundamental and good work. Only recently, I happened to meet a very important British scientist who spoke of the value of this work that was being done with regard to the final problem of trying to deal with tuberculosis.

Deputies have spoken of animal diseases and the loss caused by them to the community. We know that, and, as a result of that knowledge, the previous Minister for Agriculture, as I know, had proposals well under way for dealing with veterinary research, and for some time there has been pressure to link up the veterinary college with the university. The work is going on. It cannot all be done at once—there are difficulties of various kinds, difficulties of accommodation, equipment and so on at present—but there is no basis for the argument that we are trying to do this and not doing other things which seemed to people to be advisable also.

The really difficult and only point to be debated thoroughly—and it is debatable—is how far in cases of that sort, when a sum of money is available, it should be given to the universities directly or to a separate institution of this sort. I said that, to a limited extent, and I agree it should be limited, it is being done through a separate institute which will not harm but will help the universities. Any work done there is complementary to and inspiring to the work done in these other institutions.

The French have rather a neat phrase for describing the art of saying nothing in a lot of words. For 75 minutes the Taoiseach has spoken, and I have been unable to extract from anything he said a single argument in favour of the proposition that, at this day and in existing circumstances, this House should agree that £15,000 of public money should be spent immediately and £9,000 annually thereafter on foot of an additional school in the Institute of Higher Studies for the study of cosmic physics. If the Taoiseach and the Government ever had either a sense of humour or a sense of perspective, they would not at this time have introduced this proposal.

When I read the translation of the speech of the Minister for Education on this subject, in which he said he wanted to put in homely terms what the study of cosmic physics was and said that it was to find out all about the world in which we live, I was reminded of an incident which occurred when I was a young student in this city studying in the National Library, which was the only place then available in which to pursue our studies. A police constable came into the National Library and asked the attendant for a book. The attendant asked him what sort of book he wanted, and he replied that he wanted a history of the world. The attendant asked him why and he said he was studying to be a sergeant. It seems to me that, in existing circumstances, this proposal is on a par with that little narrative.

To put the matter in its proper perspective, nobody has denied—and the Taoiseach has put up an Aunt Sally of his own making, an Aunt Sally which was never erected by anybody on this side, in order to knock it down—the desirability of having higher studies. Nobody has denied that there is room, and possibly at some stage, when conditions are favourable, a need, for the study of advanced matters, such as physics, chemistry and even Celtic studies. Nobody has questioned that they are desirable. The question is: is it expedient, in existing circumstances and now, that we should set up this additional school in the Institute of Higher Studies? Nobody has suggested that the study of theoretical physics and chemistry and theoretical studies generally on scientific matters do not lead to the most practical considerations and the most practical effects on human life and human endeavour. The late G. K. Chesterton put it very neatly when he said that there is nothing so practical as theory.

The Taoiseach spent a long time knocking down an argument which was never made. He asked what is supposed to be the practical effect of this. Nobody suggested that the theoretic studies and theoretic researches of scientists have not led, and will not lead in future, to the most practical benefit for human beings and human life.

That argument was never made. The question is whether this particular proposal now made is one that ought to be made. Is it proper that there should be an additional school in the Institute of Higher Studies? Is it proper that there should be expenditure of this kind at this time? If so, then is the Institute of Higher Studies the proper place in which that money should be expended, or is it proper or necessary that this expenditure should take place at all in existing circumstances?

The Taoiseach said that a number of people on this side of the House during the discussion on the Bill which gave legal sanction to the Institute of Higher Studies, took reasonable views in opposition. Reasonable views were advanced during the earlier discussions on the proposals for legislation which ultimately led to that Act, and it was not until the Fifth Stage, when no reasonable explanation had been given of the necessity for this institute, that this side of the House called a division. We opposed it on the Fifth Stage because it had not been shown why it was necessary to set up an Institute of Higher Studies as distinct from the universities. On that issue the House was divided and there was not a single member of any Party, other than the Fianna Fáil Party, who voted for this Institute of Higher Studies.

It is utter nonsense for the Taoiseach to say that the majority in this country will vote for a new school of cosmic physics. Some of them, I think, are more interested in the astronomical profits they are enabled, by the policy of the Government, to make than in the science of astronomy. This class of thing is never an issue at a general election and we have to determine it here on reason and on the arguments put forward. I have heard no argument put forward from the Government Benches facing up to the real problem here. There is not in issue in this debate the desirability of having a school for the study of cosmic physics. There is not in issue in this debate whether or not the Institute of Higher Studies has done good work.

We objected, and I still object, to the Institute of Higher Studies, but it is a matter of legislation and we cannot do anything about it, but we can, on what is presented to us now, make one further protest against an extension of the idea. That we do, but we do it not merely on the arguments we put forward before in connection with this institute. We do so because we believe, and are more convinced than ever, that if moneys are to be paid from the public purse for the advancement of studies of this character, the place in which these moneys ought to be expended is our universities, and particularly the National University.

Deputy McGilligan, on the Final Stage of this Institute of Advanced Studies Bill, as reported in Volume 79, column 2180, of the Official Reports, said that he proposed to ask the House to divide on this Stage of the measure, "because it introduces an important principle by taking away from the universities important functions which had been regarded as definitely and clearly theirs. That has been done without any attempt having been made to secure the approval of the university authorities as such." That, in short, is the reason why the Bill was opposed on the last stage in this House. That, in short, is one reason, and a minor reason, why we are opposing this motion.

The Taoiseach did not say it, and the House must accordingly presume, that he did not obtain the consent of or even consult the academic bodies whose function it is to control the National University before he made the proposal here to-day. But there is a far more serious reason, or series of reasons, why in existing circumstances this motion should not be passed. The very fact that a proposal of this kind can be made is a pointer to the general policy of the Government in reference to expenditure. The ordinary people of the country have been asked by the Minister for Industry and Commerce not to spend their money.

They have been asked not merely not to spend their money on luxuries, but they have been asked, so far as possible, not to spend it on what ordinarily would be necessities. He has lectured the ordinary people of the country on their attitude to rationing, price control, and the high cost of living at present. If the ordinary person cannot even afford the ordinary necessaries of life, still less can he afford the luxuries of life in existing circumstances. There are very few people who can afford the luxuries of life in existing circumstances.

This is a Governmental luxury. This particular proposal, be it ever so sound in itself, be it ever so desirable from the point of view of getting what the Taoiseach calls prestige for this country and for the school attached to it, in existing circumstances, we are not able to afford. There are many things that we want, many things that we want worse than the study of cosmic physics, but we cannot afford them. We have been or will be voting money for the Army. We have been or will be voting money for the Navy. These are luxuries, or some parts of them are luxuries. We have to make up our minds as a Government and a country that we shall have to cut our coat according to our cloth.

The ordinary humble individual to-day is without many of the necessaries of life. Ninety-nine per cent. of the people of the country have to do without the luxuries of life. The Government are asking the country to pay £15,000 at a time when they are oppressed with taxation, when they are depressed with the future presented by the Government in reference to the high cost of living. They have to go without the necessaries of life, and the luxuries of life are dreams not merely of the past but of the future. In that state of facts, the Government are without any programme for cutting down their own expenditure. In no single respect has any programme been adumbrated by the Government for the cutting down of expenditure. Every item that comes forward is for additional and increased expenditure. This is a luxury expenditure which the position of the country does not justify at present.

In abstract circumstances, in circumstances of prosperity, in which we had a high standard of living for our people, and in which the students of our university had comfort for their studies, conveniences in which they might enjoy their university career and where they might occupy their leisure in securing the necessary culture that a university is supposed to give, it might be possible to debate as a proposition on its merits whether or not this proposal should be passed to found a school attached to the Institute of Advanced Studies, or whether it should be attached to the university. So far as I personally am concerned, I am convinced, and unalterably convinced, that it does a very grave disservice to the prestige of our university to take away from it any such school as this.

The Taoiseach spoke about the fact that the Institute of Advanced Studies in relation to its Celtic faculty, if that is the proper expression, might ultimately lead to the position where scholars from all over the world would come here as the Mecca of Celtic studies. If that were to be achieved, if that is the desire, surely the object ought to be to try to enhance the prestige of our National University amongst the peoples of the world, to secure that those graduates who come from the National University will have such a cachet that they will be able to bring it with them wherever they go throughout the world, just the same as the cachet of Trinity College is a passport for opening many doors that at present are not open to National University students.

That is why I am anxious to have the National University fostered in every possible way, to have its prestige enhanced, in order that our people, when they have to export themselves, as very many of them have, will have not merely such high qualifications as that university does and can give, but that prestige that attaches to a university which has proved to be an institution of culture and learning. Giving this school to the Institute of Advanced Studies will take away from the university that possibility. We have almost reached the stage where I feel bound to draw attention to the fact that the Tower of Babel was a curse on the peoples of the earth, and the language that the Taoiseach places so much store upon as an essential adjunct of nationality is really derived from the Tower of Babel.

However, that is a side issue. The real issue is not whether it should go to the Institute of Advanced Studies or to the National University. In existing circumstances, that cannot be properly debated. The real issue is whether the country can afford this luxury or not. Having regard to the fact that the ordinary person cannot afford even the full range of the necessaries of life to which he is entitled, not to talk of the luxuries, I say that the head of the Government is not entitled to the luxury which he claims in this motion.

Like Deputy Byrne, I protest against the way in which the Minister introduced this Estimate, and I think I can speak on behalf of most Deputies who did not understand one word of what the Minister said. It is questionable whether the Minister himself understood all he read out of that paper which, I believe, was prepared for him by his officials. Therefore, as a humble Deputy, duly elected, I voice my protest. We are as much entitled to have an English translation of his speech as the half-dozen Deputies who received copies, if we are to be in a position to follow the trend of his speech. In my ignorance, I had to consult a dictionary for the meaning of cosmic physics. It was not the same dictionary, I think, that the Taoiseach consulted when he told the Irish people that we had a republic for seven years and did not know.

I think it was Chambers's Dictionary I consulted. Cosmic physics is a subject in which, I am sure, the poor people of the country will be greatly interested. I am sure that when the school of cosmic physics is set up, scientific methods will be evolved in a very short time for squeezing a little water out of the turf which the unfortunate people of the City of Dublin and of the country are trying to burn at the present time and possibly, in the near future, as a result of the scientific research that will be entered upon, the Minister will be able to remove the turf from the bogs and overcome that spirit of laziness which prevented the production of the thousands of tons of turf that are so essential, not only for domestic use, but for the maintenance of industry.

In my opinion, at the present time there is no necessity for setting up a school of cosmic physics, which will cost the country a capital sum of £15,000 and an annual expenditure of £9,000. In the present position of the country, I say, without fear of contradiction, to the Minister for Education and the Taoiseach—and I direct my remarks especially to the Taoiseach— that it would be much better to get the heads of the schools, including our university colleges, to concentrate on the meaning of the words "truth and honesty" and on the importance of practising them. Then we would have the finest country in the world. That would be of greater advantage to the people of this country, and to the people of all nations, than the setting up of institutes of higher studies.

Again, I object to this vote because having studied the matter, I believe it is in direct opposition to our National University. The ordinary people of the country assume that it is the function of that university to cater for higher education in all its aspects. I believe that this school will injure the National University, especially when we consider that at the present time the university is suffering from lack of funds. Instead of spending this huge sum in setting up this school or a school of research in addition to the ones we have already set up, we should have given that money to the National University and let them engage in all these activities.

That is common sense but possibly that might not meet the wishes of the Taoiseach, who wants to have this thing to himself. His Government want to have the nomination of all the professors and for the particular jobs that are going to be given away. In that way, of course, it may add to their prestige down the country. In existing circumstances, the main concern of the people is to get fuel of a type they can burn to brighten their homes which are so gloomy at present. Money is required for housing and for all the other things that go to make life sweet. There is absolutely no necessity for the introduction of this Vote, especially as the vast majority of our people know little or nothing as to what the outcome of the expenditure involved will be. It is a mistake for those on the opposite side to say that if it is put to the people they will vote for it. They will vote for it and they will not understand it, and it will not be an issue.

The Taoiseach, or whoever is responsible for the introduction of this Vote at this particular time, does not show much concern for the position in which the people of this country and the people of all nations find themselves. This matter could be postponed until a more favourable set of circumstances present themselves. That is my view, as one who knows the value of education as well as the rest. Education of the type that I see now does not hold out any great hope so far as the future of this country is concerned. You must have the foundation first to take advantage of all the grandiose schemes of education that are being dangled before the people. In my opinion there is not that foundation. It would be more important to spend money in inculcating in the people a civic spirit than to set up a school of cosmic physics costing £15,000 and £9,000 per annum.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present—

Last night the Minister was listening to Deputy O'Sullivan and others calling his attention to the fact that there were 143 old, pensioned national teachers whose pensions at the present time are between 20/- and 30/- a week; that there are 218 whose pensions are between 30/- and 40/- a week, and that there are 700 whose pensions are between 40/- and 50/- a week. If we finish this discussion to-night, he will be telling Deputy O'Sullivan and others who, like ourselves, support the motion with reference to the increase of these pensions, that the country cannot afford to pay these pensioned teachers more than the 50/-, the 40/- or the 30/- a week which, expressed in the terms of money when they were working and earning their pensions, would be very much smaller than the figures quoted. Now, we are told how necessary it is that the higher branches of learning would be financed and manned and developed if we are to strengthen and improve our primary and secondary education.

The Taoiseach merited the suggestion that Deputy Coburn has just made. That is, that people ought to be taught early in their days to study the dictionary meaning of truth and honesty. The Taoiseach was not honest when he suggested that there were people in this Assembly other than the regulated members of his own Party who supported the setting up of the Institute of Advanced Studies. As Deputy Costello indicated, while the proposal was criticised on the Second Stage and on the Committee Stage, we were prepared to keep an open mind until the Government had an opportunity of considering our criticism and, on the Final Stage, when the Government had been given every opportunity to listen to what we had to say, we opposed the Bill, and it was opposed by every other Opposition Party in the House.

The Taoiseach, as Deputy Costello says, gave no explanation, good, bad or indifferent, as to what this proposal will do for the country. He spoke of the great work that has been done by the two schools that are there already. He spoke of the necessity of having a great centre of Celtic studies here. He was not very clear as to what the great school of Celtic studies would do for us beyond saying that we wanted to study our own language in its various forms and in its relation to other Celtic languages. I do not know from what base we can study our own language or relate it to its forms in the past or to its kindred forms in any other of the Celtic countries, unless it is from the basis of the modern language that we have to-day which may be considered to go back, including early modern Irish, to the fourteenth century.

What has the Institute of Advanced Studies, on the Celtic studies side, done for modern Irish? Nothing in the world. There were three small publications. One is an excellent examination of the dialect of Muskerry by Eoin O Cuiv; the second is a similar excellent examination of Cois Fhairrge by Mr. Waldron, and the third is an equally excellent examination of the dialect of Ring. That has been made and it is about to be published by Risteard Breathnach. Beyond that, modern Irish—and by that I mean the early modern Irish from the fourteenth to the sixteenth century and modern Irish from the seventeenth century on —has not only been utterly ignored, but some of the most valuable workers have been taken away from that field.

Professor O'Rahilly, the Director of the School of Celtic Studies, is the greatest authority in the world on modern Irish. He had no predecessor in his field; he got no lectures from foreigners in his field; he got no direction from foreigners in his field. He is the greatest authority in that particular class of study; he is the precursor of that study and he has been taken absolutely and utterly away from the whole field of modern Irish. His work is unchallengeable and unquestionable. If you go back to his work, Gadelicu, in 1912, you will note that although more than 30 years have passed, his judgment still stands and the correctness of his work is still there, showing its excellence and the definiteness of his authority. He is taken away from the whole work of modern Irish.

The position is almost worse than that. Take his Measgra Danta and Burduin Bheaga, and his other works. Some are out of print, although they are invaluable material for those working on modern languages, whether in the secondary schools or in the universities. What has Professor O'Rahilly been drafted into under the roof of the School of Celtic Studies? He has been drafted into considering the history of the Goidhils and who they were; into examining the existence of the two Patricks; examining into Irish mythology and writing stories of those times that have no effect on our learning to-day in any kind of systematic or sound fashion. Not only that, but he has been writing stories that Cathal Ó Sandair had not invented Reics Carlo to help him in the examination of detective stories. Without the existence of Reics Carlo, Ó Sandair himself could have examined and perhaps exploded some of the stories that we are now getting as Irish mythology from the School of Celtic Studies and the operations of the amateur detective in these stories might be as near the truth as in the original work.

There has been taken away from the most important ground that could be worked to-day, from the point of view of our language, the greatest authority of his time, and he has been drafted into cosmology. Just as the Taoiseach tells us that no one can tell what good we may get in time from the study of cosmic physics, no one, surely, can tell what good we may get from the examination of Irish mythology that we are getting from the School of Celtic Studies at the present moment. So that when the Taoiseach says magnificent work has been done in the School of Celtic Studies we, who are thirsting for work that will be of advantage to the nation through the strengthening and improvement of the language, deny that there is any great work done there and the Taoiseach cannot point out that any work has been done except the three works I spoke of, which are valuable in their way.

Those most competent to go and listen to the professors there seem to have nothing to say about it except that it is a school in which people are brought together to be lectured from time to time. They lecture people who have no idea, or a very dim idea, of what they are being lectured about. While they may come away from the lecture praising God for all His glories and His astounding works, they can come away from these lectures with very little other benefit. We protested, as Deputy Costello indicated, in all the discussions that took place here on the Bill setting up the Institute for Advanced Studies, that these things should be associated with the university and everything that had happened since has shown that we were right. Infinitely more work for Celtic studies would have been done if those who were dealing with Celtic studies had been left in the universities. A man who is the greatest authority on modern Irish has been completely divorced from that special work.

Similarly, the greatest authority on old Irish in the country has been appointed out of the National University to a post in the School of Celtic Studies. The conditions in the School of Celtic Studies would not allow him to stay there. The greatest authority on old Irish that we ever have had is to-day deprived of his university salary and put on a very small pension from the university because he left it voluntarily in order to go, at the request of the Government I suppose, to the School of Advanced Studies. He is left there, divorced from his university work and his income has been very considerably reduced. That is the contribution the School of Advanced Studies has made to the study of old Irish.

Deputy Dillon rather swept aside the various objections put forward by very many of the different Opposition speakers to this Bill. He opposed it entirely on the ground that it was a monument to the pride of the Taoiseach. To some extent I accept that but accepting Deputy Dillon's argument and his very emphatic statement, I do not understand Deputy Dillon when he modifies his opposition to this proposal after the Taoiseach said that he was going to see that the universities are well financed. I do not think that the adequate financing of universities, the proper staffing and the equipping of them with proper buildings, can be accepted as a price for having higher learning put more and more under State control because this proposal is an extension of the action taken already to put the higher branches of learning directly under State control. The School of Celtic Studies on the one hand and the School of Theoretical Physics on the other hand are entirely under State control. The Taoiseach attempted to controvert Deputy Dillon's statement which rather suggested that the whole administration of the institute was tied up in red tape, but the fact is that that is so. To contemplate the setting up of another body of experts to go and study the stars, to contemplate their going in signing a time book every morning is a thing I cannot do. I do not see any terrestrial results of any great importance to the welfare of the people arising from that study.

There is nothing proposed here but the extension of State control over higher learning and anybody who would accept the statement that the Taoiseach has made now, that the universities are going to be provided for, and on these grounds agree to the setting up of this additional school, would be simply selling the national birthright, that we should have our university free from State control, and selling that for moneys that are properly due to the universities. We consider that the universities should be properly financed to do their work and that they should be kept entirely free from State control.

The Minister indicated that the functions and duties of this school will include the theoretical and experimental investigation of cosmic physics, including astrophysics, cosmic rays, geophysics, meteorology and oceanography. He went on to say that "the possible application of the results of such investigations to problems of national economy" would arise. At a later stage he said that "there are few branches of science which compete with cosmic physics in their value to the life of a nation and where even purely theoretical results find practical application so quickly". He indicated, to put it in homely terms, that "the aim of cosmic physics is to find out all about the world in which we live and to apply that knowledge for the betterment and advancement of human life". Assume that we understood what that meant and assume that we did get some idea as to any particular aspect of our people's lives that was going to be affected by that work in such a way as to improve it, why should we commit it to the Institute of Advanced Studies in order to get it done? Is it not a fact that if, for every new piece of work you tackle, you set up a separate institution, your overheads pile up, and money and personnel are absorbed in just building up the superstructure of an institute when the money could be much better expended and the personnel could be much better utilised in actually doing the work outside the Institute of Advanced Studies?

Did anybody foresee, when the Bill for the setting up of the School of Advanced Studies was introduced here that in six years it was going to require as much financing as the whole of Cork University College? The Minister will not deny that when this £9,000 is added to the £41,500 that was estimated for the institute, the cost to the State of the institute with the new school established in it is going to be as great as the whole of the cost of Cork University College. I wonder could we get any explanation that would convince us in any way that the work that was being done in the institute in the interests of education generally and of higher education in particular, and the results of that work in benefit to the lives of the people generally, were such as would warrant its being put on the same plane as the whole work of Cork University College? I think the Government has gone a bit mad. Deputy Coburn said he consulted a dictionary. It would be very interesting to consult both English and Irish dictionaries on this question. While I sympathise with Deputies who felt that they were at a disadvantage because they had not heard an English speech on the subject, I would assure them that they laboured under no disadvantage at all: that there was as little to be got by way of intelligent comment on what the proposals are out of the English version as out of the Irish version. As far as the Irish version is concerned, if Deputy Flanagan is of opinion that if he had been in to listen to the Minister he would have understood two-thirds of the Minister's speech, he certainly would have found some words in it that he had never heard before. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says, with regard to what it calls “cosmical physics”, that:

"In ancient astronomy the word `cosmical' means occurring at sun- rise, and designates especially the rising and the setting of the stars at that time."

One may wonder what stars are rising and what stars are setting on this particular occasion of the setting up of this establishment for cosmic physics. The Encyclopxdia Britannica goes on to say:—

"Cosmical physics is a term particularly applied to the totality of those branches of science which treat of cosmical phenomena, and their explanation by the laws of physics. It includes terrestrial magnetism— the tides, meteorology as related to cosmical causes, the aurora meteoric phenomenon and the physical constitution of the heavenly bodies generally. It differs from astrophysics only in dealing particularly with phenomena in their wider aspects and as the product of physical causes, while astrophysics is more concerned with the minute details of observation."

The Minister gave his own description of cosmic physics in Irish, and the Taoiseach persuaded himself that he gave an explanation of what it meant in English. While not wishing to interrupt the Taoiseach too much in the course of his speech, which he ought to be allowed to make for himself, I endeavoured to get him to give us some information as to what it meant and as to what it was meant to do. All that I could understand from him was that those people who are going to be used for meteorological work here are going to be trained there. Well, if our meteorologists are to be trained in a special institution why not our engineers? Are we going to see a branch of the engineering school attached to the school of higher learning, and why not? Are we going to see a school of chemistry set up there? The Taoiseach seemed to indicate that, because research in tuberculosis was being carried out under a medical council that was distributing grants, there was a great case for setting up institutes in all directions. I submit that the work that is being carried out under the medical council in modern medical research is being done by and through the universities.

On the position of the universities in all this work, I should like to direct attention to a letter from Professor Thomas Dillon which was published, I think, in the Irish Press on the 31st January, 1947, a letter in which he deals with a statement that was made recently on the question of chemical research by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Professor Dillon says:—

"The fine chemical industry first grew in Germany during the 19th century directly out of the universities, where chemistry was studied intensively with liberal financial assistance from the German States. It failed in England because in those days the old universities, Oxford and Cambridge, regarded chemistry as merely ancillary to medicine and unworthy of serious intellectual effort. It thus happened that when war broke out in 1914 the British found themselves short of many products essential for their armies and their industries, and the Government appointed a committee of practical business men to establish a fine chemical industry. This committee failed to do anything, and, as the matter was urgent, it was soon replaced by a committee of chemists, including some from the professorial staffs of the universities.

"This committee insisted that well equipped chemical departments in the universities must be the background of any successful fine chemical industry, and that it was essential for the development of such an industry that the universities should be liberally endowed with money for professorships, lectureships, scholarships, books and apparatus to enable them efficiently to carry on the training of chemists for industry. The British Government, notwithstanding their huge expenditure on armaments, accepted this policy during the war, and afterwards founded the university grants committee, to ensure that the universities would not be left short of money. Thus, as in Germany, these unpractical men founded the British dye industry from which subsequently sprang the artificial silk, plastics, and other fine chemical industries for which England established a reputation between the wars.

"I write this letter because I feel that if these facts had been known to the Irish public the adequacy of our universities would have formed the chief topic of the debate on the proposals of Mr. Lemass."

If we are going to have any kind of study of cosmic physics that is going to do what the Minister for Education suggests that its result will be : that is, to find out all about the world we live in and apply that knowledge for the betterment and advancement of human life, then he should see that the universities were adequately equipped on the physical side and on the chemistry side to give a proper training, and to allow proper research to be carried out in physical, chemical and allied subjects. They are closely related to the educational life of our people, to our industries and to our people's work. Both studies would be carried on and research would be carried out that would make sure that the work that was being done in studying the stars, the oceans and the air would be work that was done from the practical point of view of our people having to live their material and spiritual lives here, and we would not have what is going on in the School of Celtic Studies. We would not have the urgent, modern, real and vital work connected with our language here neglected, and we would not have the talent, the energy and the money running off into the mists and futilities of mythology. We would not have people sitting around professors whom they hardly understand— just feeling that: "Well, it is a grand thing to realise that there are higher realms of thought that we may sometimes hope to attain to."

I say that the Government must be utterly mad to be introducing proposals of this kind to-day. I wonder how much of the Taoiseach's 40-minute speech was hurriedly shifted over to Radio Eireann so that it could be heard with rapture by the unfortunate people who have not fire or fuel on which to make their tea? We oppose this proposal with Deputy Dillon : that this is a place of pride which is being set up ; on the ground that Deputy Cosgrave speaks about— that there is vital and urgent work to be done in relation to disease of animal and plant life—on the ground mentioned by some other Deputies, that provision for teaching in the schools and for a proper, well thoughtout code of education is comparatively neglected, on the ground that this is another step forward in the State control of our universities and on the ground that, though we are now told belatedly that our universities are to be attended to financially, this idea is being developed to the financial detriment of our universities.

It was possible, during the financial stringency of the past six years, from small financial beginnings to rise to an expenditure on this institute as large as the expenditure on the whole of University College, Cork. On those general grounds and on the ground that this higher institute should never have been established, we oppose the motion.

With the difficulties our people are experiencing in securing the necessary food to maintain their health and the necessary fuel to cook what food is available, and with the difficulty in securing employment for our people, one would expect that a responsible Government would be realistic. Instead of that, we find the Taoiseach and the Minister for Education chasing the stars and chasing rainbows, while ignoring those difficult problems which have remained unsolved. I cannot understand why the Dáil is asked to make provision to establish a constituent school of the Institute for Advanced Studies "for the furtherance of advanced study and the conduct of research in cosmic physics". One could understand the expenditure of money to enable men of brains and ability to provide a useful and beneficial service to the community and the Taoiseach, if he expects the House to agree to this proposal, should, at least, indicate what benefit it will provide. The Minister for Education stated, I understand, in his introductory remarks, that, having studied cosmic physics and gazed at the stars, the knowledge gleaned by these men would be applied for the betterment and advancement of human life. Is it proposed to reduce the rainfall or how do they propose to advance the betterment of human life? I am afraid that Deputy Dillon is right—that this is merely a luxury for the Taoiseach— a monument to his pride. There are few luxuries for the people and it is unfair for the Taoiseach to ask for a particular luxury for himself as an offering to his own pride.

I understand that the Taoiseach told the House that he had examined the financing of the universities, the salaries of the professorial staffs and the accommodation provided for students. He said that he was amazed at the conditions which he found, that he proposed to increase the salaries and to spend millions of pounds in providing additional university accommodation. Having expended that money, he did not tell us what he proposed to do with the universities. Are they merely to turn out more B.L.'s when the majority of the men who have that qualification are walking the streets and cannot get jobs? Some of them are holding down third-class jobs. So far as securing a decent salary is concerned, a man with qualifications as a plumber will secure better pay than the majority of barristers who are being turned out in the universities. We know too that but for the fact that there is an outlet to the British Colonies for four-fifths of the medical students who qualify, most of them would be tramping the roads begging. Is it proposed to enlarge the universities in order to accentuate that problem—to tax our people so as to provide large sums of money to train more and more people for going abroad? I do not object to paying the professors decent salaries but I, certainly, object to enlarging the universities for the purpose of turning out more medical doctors and barristers, of which professions few members are required in this country.

The amazing thing is that scientific work which is required for the primary industry has been grossly neglected. I cannot understand why a responsible Government, realising the stagnation in our primary industry and the influence that industry must have on the economy of the whole community, does not give more attention to that industry. When we are prepared to spend money on science and higher studies, why do we not direct our attention to the necessity for providing moneys for scientific research in agriculture? I can understand the devoting of moneys for the study of some matter which will, eventually, bestow a benefit on the community, provide a service which will be of advantage to the community or bring forth new knowledge of importance to the community.

There is a great deal of scientific work to be done on the soil itself, on the new technique of grass-cultivation and grass management and on biological and pathological problems in our agriculture. Those are neglected and Parliament is asked to provide a sum for a group of men to gaze on the stars. Having studied the stars—I do not know how long—it is suggested that the knowledge which they will glean will be used for the betterment and advancement of human life. So far as this Party is concerned, we certainly were not impressed by the case made. We regret that our efforts time and time again in the past, in directing the attention of the Government to the essential problems in agriculture, were unavailing. We say that we must drop all this cod, but evidently the Taoiseach has not been impressed nor has any member of the Government. No opportunity is being taken to make any provision for the scientific work necessary for agriculture and we must oppose this proposal.

I regret that the Minister is not here now, as I with many others in the House feel it would have been much better if he had made his speech in the language that we understand. Much as we might think or be said to think of the Irish language, nevertheless it is not of very much avail when we cannot understand it. I am sorry he did not think well of informing us in the language we do understand. Actually, I was not here for his speech because it was unnecessary to be here, as I would be just as wise at the end as at the beginning. However, in keeping with the rest of my Party, I must oppose this Vote, as apart altogether from the enormous sum, we feel that at this stage of our life it is not at all necessary. There are many problems in the country to be solved and I fail to understand how ill-informed the Government must be on those problems, otherwise they would not have introduced to this proposal to set up a higher course of studies. At the moment, we have the universities and, as far as we can understand, they are quite enough for this small country to go on with. If we have any extra money to spare, we should spend it on their advancement, and not go sky-scraping up in the air. That is the only way we can describe ourselves as being if we pass this Estimate.

Very few people in the country understand this proposal and the people will not be impressed by our lack of attention to their wants. There is grave hardship in the country, no matter what one may hear in the city about prosperity. There may be prosperity for a few people, but in the country and even in the larger towns there is great hardship amongst the ordinary people owing to the shortage of fuel, of milk and butter. These things may sound very homely, but they are the things that count. It is ridiculous for a poor country to set out on this enormous expenditure at a time like this, when we should be looking for some way to cut our expenses, knowing that we have an enormous Budget to face within the next few months. Instead of adding to the enormous list, we should be trying to cut it down.

If we feel justified at all in spending more money on the education of our people, surely it should be within the control of the universities. On a few occasions, on different items here, I stressed the tendency of Government to take a form of State control. We all know what that means. The less State interference the better. I advise the Government to go cautiously, to keep whatever they have at the moment if they need it, but certainly not to launch out on a new venture, in setting up a new system instead of putting this under the control of the universities, which are responsible for the education of the people. The whole thing is fantastic. The Government should have thought more wisely about it and consulted with the people. After all, it is not the Government's money or that of a particular Party: it is the people's money. They have to pay the piper and I do not think they will be satisfied to spend this extra £15,000, as well as the extra amount of £9,000 each year, and I oppose the Vote.

We all know the Taoiseach is the shrewdest politician in the House, but we are at a loss to know why he should let this Estimate be introduced at this stage of our history, when the people are in no mood for it and are more troubled about food and clothing. At present there is great grumbling from the hills and valleys regarding the position of the people. I cannot understand why the Taoiseach gave a whip like this to the Opposition. It is only right that the Opposition should use the whip effectively and well to-day.

I feel they have done that, but I cannot understand why he gave it to them. There is something behind it. The Taoiseach knows as well as we know that the people feel very dour and sour at the moment and have good reason to feel so. Tens of thousands are shivering with the cold, are hungry and have not seen butter or bacon for the last 12 months. They think it would be far better to spend £15,000 in easing their sufferings and, if they have to suffer, we at the head should suffer along with them. This proposal will do no good either to the Government or to the House.

For the last year we have had nothing but luxury legislation, setting up vast hotels, costly seaside resorts and air bases, and now we have cosmic physics. All this is right in its own time and I stand for plenty of money being spent on advanced studies and cosmic physics, but our people's needs should be satisfied first. Their needs are not satisfied and they are in no mood for spending money on these idle luxuries. I hope there will be a time in the future when we can spend tens of thousands of pounds on higher education, to bring that to the masses of the people, from the poorest man up. That would be the duty of this Parliament.

I warn the Government that danger is afoot, people are on the turn, not so much against one Party or another, but sick of the whole damn business. They see millions being spent and no value for it. Families are reared and educated, not to live working on their own land, but for export as hewers of wood and drawers of water in other countries. That was not what an Irish Parliament was set up for. It was to give peace and comfort to all the people at home in our own country. It is not doing that. I warn the Government to stop this luxury legislation. Instead of the Taoiseach floating his head up in the air, if he put his ear to the ground he would learn more in a few minutes than by floating in the clouds as he is at the moment. I hope he will come to the ground and realise there was a time in his own life when he was a small boy in Clare and saw the rough and tumble of life and saw the struggle of his uncle and his own people. I remind him that the same struggle is going on still. There is misery, want and hunger, with people fleeing hither and thither to try to get a living. They cannot get butter, bacon or the necessaries of life, so I think it is time the Taoiseach came back to earth.

I know that he is a man who dreams and star-gazes, and more luck to him, if he does it at the proper time, but there is no use in his star-gazing while our people have to stare at empty shops and have to beg in vain for bacon and butter. I ask the Taoiseach to walk around the city, and, instead of looking at the stars, to look at the shops and see what goods are there. Let him ask himself, if they are not there, why they are not there. Even though we had to go through war conditions, there is no reason why we should not have plenty bacon and butter in this country and, therefore, I tell the Government to stop this nonsense, because, if they do not, the people will stop it for them. It may be that the Taoiseach is sick of the whole job and may be giving this whip into the hands of the Opposition so that he may gently get out. If that is so, I welcome it because he has failed, and the nation knows he has failed. I hope that he himself knows that he has failed, because if he does, it is a good day for the country. If he realises that now, let him bow gracefully and get out. There are other men who can try and perhaps succeed. I ask him to look after the people and stop staring at the stars.

This debate has ranged over a very wide field. Deputy Cosgrave, who was the first speaker to oppose the motion, warned us that we should be more concerned with the economic problems which face the country at present than with introducing a motion of this kind. The answer to that is that we are attending to the economic problems of the country, and we understand the needs of the people just as well as, and better than, the members of the Opposition, but there is no reason why these things cannot be done side by side. We can look after the economic welfare of the people, and, at the same time, look after the education of the people.

Deputy Mrs. Redmond, together with Deputy Byrne, complained that the Minister's statement was made entirely in the Irish language. That certainly was not done out of any discourtesy to members of the Opposition, but we all know that it is customary, when introducing any measure connected with the Department of Education, or dealing with any matter affecting the field of education, for the introductory statement to be made in the Irish language, because it is our policy to give first place to the Irish language in all these matters. Deputy Coburn passed the remark earlier that the English language was on a par with the Irish language. It should be pointed out that the Irish language gets first place in this country. Deputy Giles says that we have given a whip to Fine Gael with which to beat the Government. We shall see —the people will be the best judges of that, and I can say that the people understand these matters much better than they are given credit for by members of the Opposition.

We were also told by Deputy Dillon when he was hurling a tirade of abuse at the Taoiseach and the Government with regard to this proposal to start a school of cosmic physics, that the Institute of Higher Studies was designed originally to take away from the position of the universities, but when the Taoiseach proceeded to explain that no such idea was in his mind or in the mind of the Government, he said that if he had known that in time, he would have approached the matter from an entirely different angle. As was pointed out, if he wanted information on the subject, he could have got it beforehand, or during the course of the debate, if he had asked for it, but that did not prevent him from imputing dishonest motives to the Government in connection with the establishment of this school of cosmic physics.

He and other Deputies also said that these matters could be dealt with effectively in the university. I do not think they could, and I will quote from a statement by Dr. Schroedinger in reference to that matter. He says:

"The school"—that is, the School of Advanced Studies—"works in close collaboration with the Dublin universities. Its lecture courses are attended by a large number of senior university students. The more advanced seminars are attended by lecturers and professors of both universities, and it has already been mentioned how the conferences held at the institute affect the scientific life of the country. In this way, the school tries to provide the natural continuation of the normal university education. The body of scientific knowledge has grown so much that the student who has to carry out research must receive further training after the conclusion of his ordinary university course. In all countries anxious to keep their high scientific standard, arrangements have been made, and are being made, to meet this need, either within or without the framework of the universities. Institutions like the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies can fulfil this rôle in an excellent way."

There is an expression of opinion by an eminent scholar as to the relative positions of the Institute of Advanced Studies and the universities. It proves that, not alone does the Institute of Advanced Studies not impinge on the work being done in the universities, but works in collaboration with them.

Deputy Hughes quoted, and I think quoted wrongly, a statement made by the Taoiseach. He said that the Taoiseach proposed to extend the National University. What the Taoiseach said was that, when the National University was first established, it was meant to give accommodation to 1,000 students and that there were now 3,000 attending the university, and he said it was time to do something in the matter of providing accommodation for the extra number of students.

I think the abuse hurled at the Taoiseach, and the bitter hostility which has come from the opposite benches to this motion are entirely unjustified. There is a school of advanced studies in most European countries— even in small countries such as Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, and Finland. These are small countries, and yet we were told by Deputy Cosgrave that we were legislating in grandiose fashion and like a grand empire in legislating to set up this school. It was only natural that Ireland would be in the vanguard in matters of scientific research and scholarship for which she had a unique tradition down through the ages.

I find myself somewhat reluctantly obliged to disagree with the motion before the House. I say reluctantly, because cosmic physics is a subject which I know very little about, in fact I know nothing about it. I should imagine that it is a branch of pure science from which undoubtedly certain advantages may come. I am prepared to accept that advantages have come and may come in the future from any study of pure science as such, and I hope that, if the Government persist in establishing a school of cosmic physics, good will come from it. I do not know sufficient about cosmic physics to know what good can come from it or just how it could come. But I do hope that, if this project is carried out, something will come of it. That is why I say that I am somewhat reluctant to oppose it. I do so, however, on these grounds. This is a small country with a limited amount of money. Is the study of cosmic physics the best way in which we can advance thought in this country? It do not think it is. We have that limited amount of money and we should, like any prudent housekeeper, expend it to the best advantage.

Various Deputies spoke about the link-up in Germany between chemistry and the great industries of that country, and pointed out that from investigations in universities other hitherto unknown industries were built up. In this country we had an Industrial Research Bureau during the war. I think that is functioning in a more attenuated form at present. My memory fails me as to just the precise manner in which that body is functioning now. But I do remember that when that Industrial Research Bureau was done away with there was a feeling that a scientific arm of the industrial life of the country was being taken from it. I think that we could do better at the moment by concentrating on applying scientific research to the industries which we have and that a very fruitful field for scientific investigation would be opened if the Government would spend the money which they propose to spend on this new school in endeavouring to facilitate our Irish industries.

Briefly, I think that is why we on this side of the House feel that we are wasting money on this school. I am not sure that later on we might not find that a school of cosmic physics would be a very good thing for us to have. As I said, I know so little about the subject that it is very difficult to say what practical benefits might arise in any circumstances from that school. But I think that at the present moment we could spend our money a great deal better in trying to bring science to the aid of our industries and agriculture. Therefore, I must ally myself with those who feel that we are undertaking a line of higher studies which is too expensive a luxury to indulge in at the moment.

It used to be said that, whatever our defects as a people were, one of the things that we prided ourselves upon throughout our troubled history was that we valued highly education, the things of the mind and the things of the spirit. Apparently, we have fallen on less fortunate days. Even in the midst of our prosperity, we have not the same attitude towards the things of the mind as in the days of adversity. It seems extraordinary that such a protracted discussion should have taken place in regard to the expenditure of a comparatively small sum of money, having regard to our national budget on educational services and the other services that are provided for from the annual revenue. I am afraid that the discussion was really based on prejudice and ill-informed views and on what seemed to be a deliberate idea of misrepresenting the situation.

Deputy Mulcahy is one of the speakers who, year in and year out, has been reminding me on the Education Estimates of the wonderful things that are being done in Great Britain for the furtherance of education. He has been lecturing me very severely that I am very remiss indeed that I am not undertaking some of these very large schemes and this huge expenditure that the British Government have undertaken in the educational sphere.

I need not go into this in detail but I simply ask the Deputy, and anybody else who is interested in pursuing this question of the facilities that modern Governments are providing for research, particularly in science, to examine the provision that the British Government is making, even at the present time, when it is faced with such serious economic difficulties, the enormous provision running into millions upon millions of pounds that it is spending on pure research. Why is the British Government doing that? Are they being attacked in the British Parliament, at a time when the British people find themselves confronted with various difficulties, in the same spirit as we are being attacked here, as being given over to squandermania, to spending the nation's resources on something that is unnecessary, not giving priority to social services, housing, health and other things? The fact is that the intelligent people who rule Britain's destiny believe that if they are to maintain their position in the world they must, as the Taoiseach reminded us, be in the first place, not in the second place, that, so far as scientific training as well as industrial equipment is concerned, the question of expense is merely secondary; that it is a question of getting the men into the research laboratories, into the industrial laboratories, and getting as many of them as possible in the shortest space of time; that cost is really a secondary issue.

I cannot relate Deputy Mulcahy's iolollogóins about the expenditure of this comparatively small amount of money on this highly specialised work to these lectures to which he has been accustomed to treat me. I say that, viewed solely as an investment, this money is well worth spending, unless we are going to take up the ridiculous attitude —as the Taoiseach stated—that, in fact, higher learning, research work, of any kind in the more advanced fields, is of no benefit to us and can be of no interest to us as a nation and, therefore, we ought not to spend money on these things. Unless we are going to be driven back to that situation, we cannot, fairly and reasonably, if we examine the reasons for the setting up of the school, refuse to agree that in the world as it is at present it is a very good investment.

The position is that in the past 100 years, while our country had been suffering from the most cruel mis-government—and only in recent years got on its feet and into a position to enable it to take its place in the comity of nations and to fulfil whatever spiritual and intellectual mission it may have to fulfil there, and to carry out its destiny —during all that period, science has been advancing at an enormous rate. It has spread into all channels of modern life. The tempo has increased enormously. The result is that even the universities are unable to keep up with the ramifications of science and with the impetus and impingement of it upon all branches of the social life of a people and the economic life of a country. So that you have had not alone universities setting up laboratories and spending huge amounts upon research, but you have had separate institutes for that purpose.

It is not alone that after this war France stepped out and concentrated its whole attention upon establishing the position that it felt it always held as one of the first cultural nations of the world, first in the arts, first in literature and first in the things that go with the finer aspects of culture, but the whole attention of the French people and the French Government seemed to be devoted to recovering that position even while France had to struggle with a black market, with the difficulties of the exchange position and with the disruption of transport, shortage of food, and so on. I wonder did any Deputies get up in the French Parliament, when the French Minister for Finance or the French Minister for National Culture announced that he was going to concentrate upon questions of French art in the world, exhibitions of French pictures throughout the nations, delegations of important French literary men and French scholars to put the French point of view and to keep the lamp of French culture alight throughout the world, to concentrate upon fashion and on the art of living? I wonder was he attacked in the same way as the Taoiseach has been attacked here as being almost a renegade, a man who was turning his back on the actual material condition of his people? Was not the French statesmans and were not the French Government, wise in their generation when they realised that if a nation has no place in the world by virtue of its spiritual mission, and by virtue of its culture and what it has to offer in the things of the mind, then it has no place at all?

If we are going to adopt the attitudes that the Opposition want to force upon us, it is a great pity we ever got self-government. Why did we not remain where Deputy Dillon wants us to remain? We ought to have remained there. We ought never to have had a war of independence or a struggle to set ourselves out as a separate nation. We ought to have counted the cost and to have said: "Oh, it would cost too much money for us ever to be a nation. We ought to forget the scholars of the last century who started the various Celtic societies, societies for the preservation of the Irish language, the Gaelic League, and all the rest, for the past 70 or 80 years. If they could come into this House to-night and if they could hear what has been said about Celtic studies and the rather contemptuous allusions that have been made to the School of Celtic Studies in the Institute of Advanced Studies, I am sure they would say that it was an extraordinary thing that, after the sacrifices that were made for Irish scholarship, after the work done by men like O'Donovan and O'Curry, who had not a tenth of the advantages our present-day scholars have, that a measure of this kind which is trying, as the Taoiseach said, to establish Dublin and Ireland as the centre of Celtic studies, the paramount centre, the dominant place in the world, where scholars who want to carry out advanced studies in that branch ought to come, should meet with the reception that it has met with here.

So far as 80 per cent. of our people are concerned, educationally, we are as far back now as we were 50 years ago.

If I am to judge by the remarks of some of the Deputies, I might almost say that we are back to the stage when we had no education at all.

Hear, hear!—less than 50 years ago.

I do not like to be unduly controversial but I wonder whether some of those persons who hold themselves up in this House as experts in education and who get headlines in the Irish Times when they condemn the educational system in this country, when they say that education is very much behind time now as compared with when they were at school, have any evidence to adduce. If the only evidence to be adduced is their own educational attainments and the exhibition, or otherwise, that they can give, here in the Parliament of the nation, if that is the criterion of educational standards, I must disagree with them.

There was no advanced study for me. I was lucky to get 14 years of it, and there was no secondary school or university, and 80 per cent. of the people in this country are in the same position to-day

The Deputy need not hold himself up as an authority.

The Minister must get a hearing.

If the Minister is going to attack me, personally, I am going to reply.

I do not think he did.

Deputy Morrissey has made a statement, and he is not the only Deputy. Deputy Cogan, of the Farmers' Party, has made it more than once. Deputy Roddy has made it. Deputy Roddy: "Education is backward and compares unfavourably with a generation or two ago." Deputy Cogan: "The children leaving the national schools are hardly able to read and write."

That is true.

I think we ought to set up an educational examination for members who are offering themselves for the suffrage of the people in the next election and see how they will stand.

And for the Department of Education.

It might create as interesting results as if we were to put some of the critics of the Institute for Advanced Studies on the governing board. We would have Deputy Mulcahy instructing Professor O'Rahilly, whom he describes as the greatest scholar of modern Irish but whose work upon Irish mythology he dismisses in such extraordinary terms. No doubt we would have Deputy Mulcahy lecturing and explaining to Professor O'Rahilly just on what lines that great scholar ought to carry out his research work and the branches of Celtic studies to which he ought to give attention and, if the professor intends to publish a work, no doubt Deputy Mulcahy would be able to suggest to him whether he has added anything valuable to the world of knowledge or whether he would be wise in publishing his work.

Or we might have Deputy Dillon. Deputy Dillon, of course, would be quite good on the council of the institute. Once the little point which seemed to have been explained to his satisfaction by An Taoiseach, as to the publication of works by workers in the institute, had been settled, it might have been thought that the Deputy would be more co-operative. He, like the other critics, did not go to the slightest trouble to ascertain what work has been done.

We heard a great deal about prestige being taken away from the university. What prestige was taken away from the National University when Professor Schroedinger, one of the greatest scientists in the world, came to Dublin? Was it likely he would have been employed by the National University, was it likely that there were any other circumstances in which his learning and his reputation, world-wide as they are, would have increased and gone forward from this capital of ours, was there any other way in which that could have happened unless in the way in which it did happen, when An Taoiseach set up the Institute for Advanced Studies in order to provide a place for men like Professor Schroedinger?

Deputies cannot be ignorant of the position Professor Schroedinger holds in the world; they cannot be ignorant of the fact that he is in correspondence with other men of the same calibre and reputation, men like Professor Einstein, and that he is in the very front rank—and he is not the only one. The National and other universities have benefited from the fact that you have men like Professor Schroedinger here. Students and others have been able to attend the seminars, and the lectures and, not alone the scholars and assistants and lecturers, but even the professors in the universities, have acknowledged their debt to Professor Schroedinger and his colleagues.

The university cannot lose, and is not losing, by the work of the institute. Is it not more natural, as An Taoiseach reminded us, that the universities should send their young scholars there, if they are scholars in the mathematical and physical branches—that they should send them to the institute in their midst, where they have scholars of world-wide reputation ready to hand, rather than send them elsewhere?

Why should not this country consider it a good investment to have names on the roll of professors in this Institute of Advanced Studies that are looked up to all over the world? When they write a paper or add to the sum of knowledge in their own particular branch, the whole world of scientific learning looks forward to reading what the new addition is and to investigating and examining it. Surely, it is of value to the nations, not alone materially, but to our very prestige, that we should have an institute of that kind?

I was surprised to hear Deputy Mulcahy referring to the School of Celtic Studies as not having contributed anything. He referred to some of the works that have been produced, but he did not refer to the learned periodical which the School of Celtic Studies has established, or to the fact that important works, like the Book of Leinster, are being prepared for publication, apart from other publications on a wide range of subjects relating to Celtic studies. If the Deputy would only get a list of the publications, I think he will admit that in number and variety and sound knowledge that list will afford ample proof of the good work that the School of Celtic Studies is doing. Indeed, their list of publications alone should be sufficient to convince an ordinary person, but the Opposition, of course, refuse to view this question of the institute in any other than the jaundiced fashion in which they have approached it since the very beginning.

Deputy Costello and Deputy Mulcahy—Deputy Mulcahy in particular— seemed to suggest that there is some extension of State authority in connection with the setting up of this institute. If the Finns, the Norwegians, the Belgians, the Bulgarians, or any of these small nations which have set up institutes to deal with specific scientific branches, propounded a proposal such as we have before us this evening in their Parliaments, I wonder would they have been told that they were usurping the functions of the university and trying to extend State authority into a field where there was a strong conflict of opinion, putting it very mildly, as to whether it should extend? Surely, since the days when Cardinal Richelieu established the French Academy and Charles I bought the pictures we hear so much about, there is such a thing as patronage, and financial encouragement for scientific research and study.

I think it is recognised that part of the function of modern governments, and part of their duty to the community, is to provide finances for research work and scientific study. Is this Government to be told, when it sets up an institute to deal with particular branches, feeling that that is the most practicable and the best way to achieve its object, that it is simply endeavouring to extend State authority into the field of higher education? The thing is absolutely ludicrous; it is preposterous.

It would be as true to say that when the National University came along looking for extended financial subventions from the Government and when the Government examined these proposals, and offered, as presumably they will, to grant increased subventions, they were trying to impose upon the National University some degree of State control. Surely the Government is entitled to see that the community is getting reasonable value for its money? That is the only criterion. There is no question of interfering in the field of studies, in the appointment of professors, in the internal policy of the university, or anything of that nature. The question must be decided on the broad, general question of whether it is a good proposition for the Irish people to invest further money in the National University and I am quite sure, as An Taoiseach indicated, that the Government would be wholeheartedly sympathetic to any proposal to extend that financial assistance to the greatest degree possible, having regard to the other claims that are being made upon us, if they consider it a good investment, and if, as leaders of the Opposition seem to consider, it is a very necessary thing, a thing that should have been attended to long ago. But how on earth can they reconcile with that attitude their view that money spent on the Institute of Advanced Studies is a mere waste?

During the past 100 years, side by side with the increased scope of scientific knowledge, which has a bearing on the life of the people and the life of nations, there is the fact that the numbers in the universities have gone up enormously. At one time it used to be the position that a university professor had a certain number of students, a number that he could comfortably manage, and if he were interested in particular branches or sections of work in his own field, he could direct the attention of his senior students to those sections and give them a good deal of assistance in pursuing independent research. But the numbers, as you have been told, have increased enormously. Where you had 1,000 students formerly, there are now 3,000 and there has not been anything like a proportionate increase in the university staff. We hear of professors who have to deal with hundreds of students. Even if they were in the position that they could deal with such a large number of students, students whose interest it is to get their qualifications and to become earners as soon as possible, to get out into the world and to establish their reputations, the amount of time available is limited and the students must get all the assistance possible from the professor in class while they are pursuing their university courses. You had not formerly that large number of students which makes it almost impossible for a professor to concentrate on research. That would have been possible 100, 70 or 60 years ago, when science was not so specialised and did not require whole-time attention and skill to keep up with developments, even in one small section of the work.

You have the fact that even if the professor be a superman and can deal with the large number of students he has to deal with at present, it would be an extraordinary thing if he could devote the time and energy necessary to keep up with world scholarship in his particular subject and to maintain his position in the world of scholarship outside as well as acting as teacher in the university. He can only do that in particular branches of his subject and the ones in which the professor would be interested might not be those in which the world at large would be interested at that particular time. For example, during the present war, the physicists seem to get ahead. Radar developments and the great developments in aviation and so on, seemed to bring the physicists to the fore. Before that it was a question of the chemists. Perhaps the chemists may come to the fore again. But I think university professors will admit that it would be quite impossible, having regard to advances in scientific research and the tremendous field that has to be covered, for a university professor to attempt to carry out work as a research man that perhaps his prototype was able to do one hundred years ago. But either within the university itself or outside in an institution like the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, provision must be made whereby scholars and scientists of the first class will have ample opportunities and whereby, when particular problems arise, they can concentrate on them and devote long and serious study to them, without being interrupted by class work, by tuitions, by examination papers or all the administrative work in addition to the teaching that falls to the lot of a professor holding an important scientific chair.

This is not a luxury; it is an investment. If it is not an actual necessity in the state of the world at the present time and in the concentration that is being devoted to scientific work and to research in all countries, I do not know what it is. In our particular circumstances, as a small country, not a wealthy country, not a highly industrialised country, the particular studies that we seek to develop and advance in our institute are not beyond the reach or beyond the resources of our people. I need scarcely refer to the School of Celtic Studies. I think even those who have been criticising it will admit that if we are not going to pay attention to our cultural task, to our national language and the studies that go with it, then there is scarcely anything to which it could be said we should devote attention.

On the scientific side, we are getting the School of Cosmic Physics as well as the School of Theoretical Physics established at very little cost. There is the cost of accommodation. There is the cost of bringing Dunsink, which was almost derelict, up to date and put into a proper state. It is probably going to cost some thousands of pounds, but, remember, any work of importance, even the reconstruction of a decent national school, will cost that sum of money nowadays. Outside that, the main expenditure will be upon the salaries of professors. Deputy Mulcahy seems to find an argument—he does find peculiar arguments—in the suggestion that because the institute is going to cost as much as Cork University College costs at present, the proposal should not be entertained; but surely the Deputy will realise that Cork University College is an institution which has classes of students ranging from the first to the fourth, fifth or sixth year—fairly large classes except in the post-graduate classes—and, therefore, the cost per student, for example, would obviously be very much less than in the case of the Institute for Advanced Studies, where a scientist like Doctor Schroedinger might have only a few scholars. Does that mean that we are going to try to appraise the work of Cork University College by the same criterion that we must bear in mind when we are considering what we are going to spend on the institute, any more than we should consider the work in Cork University College on the same basis and with regard to the same values as we do when we are considering the work of the institute? There is no comparison between them. You get into the School of Cosmic Physics three scientists of international reputation who have established themselves as men of the very first rank in other countries. We are fortunate in having one of them here already in our national Civil Service to take over his new duties. The other two will collaborate with him at a time when the light of learning is burning, not with its usual brilliancy but rather fitfully and dimly in Europe, and when there is a general dispersion of scholars the same as that which took place in the troubled Middle Ages.

It is, I think, something that we need not be ashamed of, that we can get scholars of international repute to come here to Ireland. It makes us think of the days when we sent scholars forth, too, in Europe's barbarian ages to keep the light of learning afloat. As a result of the work done in the Dublin Institute at the present time and in future years, please God we will be able to carry on that tradition. It is a tradition that we ought to place first in our consideration in this whole matter: the place of our nation spiritually and intellectually in the world at large.

Question put.
The Dáil divided:—Tá, 51; Níl, 30.

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick (County Dublin).
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colbert, Michael.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Furlong, Walter.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lydon, Michael F.
  • McCann, John.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Connor, John S.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Skinner, Leo B.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
  • Walsh, Laurence.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Eamonn.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Martin.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Ó Ciosáin and Ó Briain; Níl, Deputies Doyle and McMenamin.
Motion declared carried.
Barr
Roinn