Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry. – Dáil Éireann (12th Dáil) – Friday, 28 Feb 1947

Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moylan)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1947, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (9 & 10 Geo. 5, c. 58, and No. 34 of 1928), including certain Grants-in-Aid.

This Supplementary Estimate is necessary in order to obtain the authority of the Dáil for additional expenditure on the felling and preparation for firewood of timber growing in State forests.

The cost of the operations will amount to approximately £12,000 and is chargeable to sub-head C (2) (Cultural Operations—Labour) of the Forestry Vote. Normal expenditure under that sub-head during the current financial year will probably exhaust the full Vote provision. Savings on other sub-heads will be insufficient to meet the additional expenditure contemplated.

Owing to national necessities the large sales of timber during the 1946-47 year from State forests were much bigger than those estimated for under the Appropriation-in-Aid sub-head. It is proposed, subject to the concurrence of the Dáil, to provide the additional sum now required for sub-head C (2), less £1,000 representing the estimated net savings on other sub-heads, by the utilisation of the moneys received over and above the Appropriations-in-Aid budgeted for earlier in the year. A Token Supplementary Estimate of £10 is accordingly submitted for approval.

The provision or regulation of fuel supplies is not the responsibility of my Department. The Forestry Vote normally includes provision for the felling and marketing of a certain amount of firewood either in the form of logs or blocks. Abnormal weather conditions since early last summer have so disrupted the fuel supplies that exceptional measures are necessary this year.

A survey has been made of the available stocks of firewood in the State forests and it is anticipated that about 40,000 tons of firewood logs can be put on the market immediately. The method of sale will vary with the circumstances of each neighbourhood. In most places a proportion will be sold in small lots to householders in the vicinity of the forests, whilst the remainder will be sold to fuel merchants supplying towns and villages nearby. In some cases stocks may be in excess of the local needs and it may be possible, in consultation with the Department of Industry and Commerce, to provide a certain amount for industrial use. The supply, however, is limited and it will not be possible for the forestry division to accept orders from every source, or to guarantee to any industry, no matter how important, a supply of firewood. Colossal inroads have been made in the past two years on the resources of the State forests for firewood and other purposes and the steady denudation of growing timber is a matter of grave concern to my Department. Many of the trees that had to be felled were of an age, species and type that are rare in this country and it is most regrettable from a forestry point of view that they had to be cut down.

In places where fuel is scarce it is hoped that private owners of firewood timber will make available as much firewood as possible. In that connection I should like to make it clear that apart from the Emergency Powers Order which, for military reasons, forbids the felling of roadside trees, there are still very definite restrictions on the felling of trees for any purpose, and that there is still a responsibility on my Department, and on the community as a whole, to ensure that trees required for shelter or amenity purposes, and immature trees generally, are not reckdessly or indiscriminately felled or otherwise destroyed.

Felling notices in regard to trees required for fuel receive and will continue to receive in the present situation urgent and sympathetic consideration. Where the number of trees concerned is not too large the notices are passed without question and notification is sent immediately to the local Gardaí so that felling need not wait on the full 21 days' period which, strictly speaking, the Forestry Act requires. Where the number of trees is large and it appears that replanting may be necessary, or where there are other special features requiring investigation, it may still be necessary to send a Preliminary Prohibition Order, but I can assure the House that all such cases will be dealt with as rapidly as possible. I think that the House will agree with me in expressing the hope that even in the existing circumstances there should be no ruthless or unnecessary cutting down of the timber stocks of the country, and that the utmost patience and discretion will be exercised with a view to preserving as far as possible trees which the country cannot afford to lose.

Mr. Coogan

I would like, first of all, to ask the Minister what steps have been taken this year and last year to make fuel available for the people of Thomastown, in my constituency, from the local wood at Grennan. The people of Thomastown are in a bad position, for the extraordinary reason that supplies of turf never seem to be available there. They are dependent almost entirely on timber fuel and the position up to a week or a fortnight ago was so acute in Thomastown that it was discussed on Monday week last by the Kilkenny County Council.

The citizens of Thomastown had to form an association and take certain steps to interest local Deputies and the Minister for Industry and Commerce in the situation. I understand that, as a result, 500 tons of timber have been made available from Grennan Wood, but I would point out to the Minister that that 500 tons will not, in present circumstances, last a week in the Thomastown area, and unless turf can be got there I am afraid the people will have to continue to look to Grennan Wood for fuel supplies. I quite appreciate the Minister's problem in trying to preserve commercial timber, and prevent the destruction of our forests. At the same time, I would ask him to realise the serious situation that prevails in that area and to continue to do what he can to make fuel available, if necessary by lopping or by the cutting of scrub oak or scrub timber of that kind.

A similar situation applies in the rural areas south of Thomastown, and I would ask the Minister to consider making available from Castlemorris timber fuel for the local farmers in that area. Round Knocktopher, Hugginstown, and all that country, there is very little turf to be had. The nearest fuel merchants are from 12 to 20 miles distant, and the farmers are finding it increasingly difficult to carry on there. There is some timber on Flood Hall estate, which is due for division, and it might be possible to find non-commercial timber there which might be cut or made available for them. I can assure the Minister that the farmers in the whole of that area are in a shocking condition for want of fuel and I want to ask him to try, if at all possible, to make some provision for them when considering the felling of timber. It is a mystery to me how they have been able to carry on. At present they are going around cutting up ordinary hedges and all that sort of thing to try and make do. I do not want to delay the House in the matter, but I would press for some consideration for the people in that area.

Having heard the Minister for Industry and Commerce last night it seems to me, with regard to this question of fuel, that we are faced with the problem of finding alternative fuel for many, many years to come, and I want to put it to the Minister that now is the time to consider a long-term policy for the growing of timber fuel. It seems to me that the deficiency in coal supplies, even under the rosiest prospects, will continue over a very long number of years and, as I pointed out last night, we will have a gap of approximately the equivalent of 1,500,000 upwards of tons of coal to make up in the future.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must not begin a debate on fuel.

Mr. Coogan

I do not want to, but I think we have to face up to this problem. Over a long period of years we will have a tremendous gap to make up. It is doubtful if that gap is going to be made up by the importation of foreign coal and, even if it is made up by the importation of foreign coal, it is going to be a very expensive fuel to import. I want to put it to the Minister that he should seriously consider, now, on a long-term basis the possibility of developing lands for the growth of timber purely as a fuel.

Mr. Hughes

It would take 20 years.

Mr. Coogan

Even if timber does not mature for 20 years I say that we are faced with a position that for a long number of years we cannot get fuel from abroad. It is doubtful if ever again we will get imports on a normal level from England.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is going pretty far.

Mr. Coogan

I just wanted to put that point to him. On the immediate problem of Dublin, I understand that in Wicklow there are large areas taken over by the Forestry Department and that there is a considerable quantity of non-commercial timber there, which could be felled for immediate distribution in Dublin. I would ask the Minister to consider the possibility of having that timber made available as an emergency supply.

Mr. Byrne

If a turf haulage contractor is not allowed to carry timber, will he put Army lorries on the work, or will he see that turf contractors are licensed to carry timber? It is a very serious matter for Dublin and other parts of the country.

Mr. Flanagan

I would like to take this opportunity to express my very deep appreciation of the Forestry Section of the Department for the very favourable manner in which they have dealt with the situation that was drawn to their attention with regard to the fuel position in the County Laoighis. I had occasion to call to the Forestry Section at the request of the Mountmellick Town Commissioners, and I requested that the Garryhinch wood, which lies between Mountmellick and Portarlington, be immediately opened, as there was firewood lying rotting there as useless timber, which could be provided for the people. I asked that the poorer and more deserving cases and those in need of fuel in the district might have recourse to the wood and take their firewood from it.

I am certain that the officials at the helm in the Forestry Section are men of experience and realise the difficulties of the present time. If we had men of the same experience in other sections of the Minister's Department, such as the Land Commission, men with sympathy for the conditions that prevail in time of an emergency, there would be very little unreasonable opposition towards the Minister's Department from this side of the House. We have the right type of men in charge of the Forestry Department at the present time, and they deserve a word of praise for the manner in which they are dealing with the fuel situation. When their attention was called to the position in many areas they acted promptly. That was my experience of them as far as my own constituency goes. They immediately sent word to the local foresters to open up the woods for the local people. No delay was experienced. That was very encouraging because in my constituency we have a very large number of forestry workers.

We were all glad to hear the Minister's statement that he has arranged to put 40,000 tons of timber on the market at once. Deputies should be deeply grateful to him for making such a wise move. The Minister should give immediate directions to those in charge of the State forests that all their attention should now be directed to the felling of this timber and that ordinary forestry work, drainage, etc., should be left aside for the moment. In the State forest near Clonaslee in my constituency we have huge supplies of timber. All the labour available should be employed in felling it and in arranging for its immediate transport to Carlow, Athy and to every centre where timber is needed. I want to express my appreciation of the manner in which the Minister has interested himself in this matter. I hope that, in all the forests in my constituency, the earliest possible steps will be taken to fell the timber that is in them and make it available for immediate use. I agree that there is a large portion of timber in the forests which cannot, and which should not, be cut down. Trees which afford shelter for shrubs come into that category.

There should also, I think, be greater co-operation than there is between the owners of private woods and the Minister's Department during this crisis. The Minister has made an appeal to them to come forward voluntarily and open their woods so that timber may be provided for the people in the present crisis. I hope his appeal will not fall on deaf ears. If they fail to respond, then I think the woods should be taken from them in the way that local authorities were empowered during the emergency to acquire turbary. These woods are of the utmost importance at the present time, and if the owners do not come forward voluntarily then they ought to be taken from them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is altogether outside the scope of this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Flanagan

The Minister made an appeal to the owners of private woods.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot discuss that on this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Flanagan

The Minister's appeal is open for discussion. I have not much more to say on it. I would not be a bit afraid to go down to my own constituency and repeat the statements I have made here, that if the owners of private woods do not respond to the appeal which has been made to them in this crisis, then the woods should be taken from them. I hope the Minister will be able to make suitable arrangements for the haulage of this 40,000 tons of timber. Deputy Byrne referred to this point. I think the Minister should get in touch with the Department of Defence and see if Army lorries could not be employed on this work, so that all the available timber in the wooded districts of the country can be supplied to people who are in need of it with the least possible delay.

Mr. Hughes

Did the Minister say 40,000 tons of timber or 14,000 tons?

Mr. Moylan

40,000 tons.

Mr. Hughes

My sympathies are completely in agreement with the views and sentiments expressed by the Minister in this matter. I feel that we must proceed very cautiously in dealing with our forestry interests. It would be a very regrettable thing if we were to denude the country of timber by slaughtering young and immature trees. That would not be justified except in a grave national emergency. It is true that we are passing through a grave emergency now. Deputies appear to be under the impression that we can rely to a very considerable extent on our timber reserves to meet this fuel situation.

I think that is an absurd suggestion. We must, of course, at the present time do that to a considerable extent, but in the normal course of events we ought to look for the proper sort of fuel for domestic purposes instead of setting out to get timber. I think the House regrets that a situation has come about which forces the Forestry Department to slaughter rare specimens of timber. The Minister told us that young immature trees have been slaughtered. As a matter of fact, before he did so, it was my intention to ask him to what extent our forests could bear an increase in the amount of timber we are cutting at the present time. The impression which the Minister's statement conveyed to me was that we are cutting timber at the present time to an extent that is not wise or advisable from a forestry point of view. The present emergency has forced us to cut young immature timber, but in the normal course of events, those in charge of the forests would not dream of doing that. In that, this fuel situation is reacting detrimentally on our forestry interests.

I think Deputies should appreciate the importance of forestry from the climatic and drainage point of view as well as in relation to our future requirements in timber. Our aim should be to produce commercial timber rather than firewood. For that reason I should like to warn the Minister that he must watch carefully the interests of our forests, and only allow to be cut what is suitable for firing, and what is absolutely essential in this time of emergency. I think from what the Minister has said that he appreciates the danger there is of doing grave harm to our forestry interests.

It is true that nearly every town in the country is feeling acutely the lack of firewood, as other fuel is not available, and, therefore, timber ought to be made available as far as possible. The Minister has suggested that private interests could be more helpful, and I think he is right there. I think the isolated timber ought to be made available in this crisis, timber standing on tillage land which is harmful from a tillage point of view. We should aim at using up that sort of timber rather than attacking immature timber in a forest which may be very useful in later years commercially.

I do not think the Minister has made it clear, and I think he ought to make it clear, that permits are still necessary for the cutting of timber. He did not say definitely that they were. But the law has not been changed in that respect. I feel that the Minister ought to make it clear that, while there is some relaxation with regard to certain timber growing by the roadside—I am glad that that Order has been relaxed to some extent—permits are still necessary for the cutting of that sort of timber.

Captain Giles

I appreciate very much the efforts of the Forestry Department in making so much timber available to the public in the present crisis. Like Deputy Hughes, I should like to issue a word of warning to the Forestry Department to deal carefully with forest lands. They are being denuded all over the country. I think that trees which may be of any service should not be cut down; that only scrub trees should be cut down.

In my area there is a lot of useless timber on large estates which have been divided by the Land Commission, the forestry belts on which are still in the hands of the Land Commission. So far as I know, they have cleared all the good serviceable timber off these belts of five or 10 acres. They have sold them to Messrs. T. and C. Martin. In these belts there is a lot of scrub timber and hazel and laurel which is of no use to anybody and will have to be cut at a later stage in order to allow of the replanting of these belts. I would ask the Land Commission to throw open these little cut-away belts to the public under the supervision of their own gangers and allow farmers and cottiers to cut the timber there which would be very good for firewood. It would relieve those local areas of the difficulties at present existing. Sooner or later this timber will have to be cut to allow of replanting and now is the time to clear these belts. I ask the Minister to look into that matter. It would put a vast amount of scrub timber on the market and ease the difficulties which are being experienced in many homes. In my constituency near Summerhill there is an estate on which the good timber was cut by Messrs. T. & C. Martin two or three years ago and there is nothing left there now only old laurel, fir, hazel and other decaying and knocked-down trees. In fact the place is lying derelict at present; it is really a wilderness. If that were thrown open to the public, I am satisfied they would make a very good job of cleaning it up. Otherwise it will cost a lot of money later on in the employment of gangers and men to clear it. Now is the time to let the local people clear it. They would be doing a good job for the Minister and I, therefore, ask him to review the position and to see if that can be done.

Mr. Coburn

The Minister mentioned that he expects to make available immediately about 40,000 tons of timber for firewood. I do not know whether it is the intention of his Department to deliver that in areas nearest to the source of supply. I respectfully submit that the money to be spent in the cutting of this timber will come out of the pockets of the people all over the Twenty-Six Counties and, if at all possible, that timber should be distributed on an equitable basis throughout the whole of the Twenty-Six Counties. It is all very well for Deputy Flanagan to throw bouquets at the Minister and tell him what a grand man he is, especially when one considers that a good turn was done to the Deputy's constituency of Leix and Offaly. I am speaking generally, however. The people in my area, as Deputy Walsh knows, do not usually complain unless they have cause for it. We do a lot of things on our own, and County Louth is not blessed with a lot of timber. The Minister might consider sending down a little of this timber to the people in Louth to relieve the situation there.

It has been suggested that the Minister should go in for a long-term policy so far as the growing of trees for the provision of fuel is concerned. With all respect, I do not think that would be a feasible proposition. We are only passing through a temporary difficulty and to grow timber here for fuel in my opinion is not a proposition that should commend itself. This country being a small one, we can only grow a certain amount of timber. You cannot grow trees overnight. It takes from 30 to 60 years. We are a rather impatient people and we think that all we have to do is to will a thing and it will be done. But trees will not grow overnight, even though they happen to be planted in Ireland. I do not think we should take advantage of this crisis to undertake what I think in the opinion of sensible men will not be a paying proposition so far as the future of the country is concerned.

In regard to the 40,000 tons of timber which are to be made available immediately, there is something contradictory between the statement of the Minister and the replies of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to questions put to him in this House. Some weeks ago the Minister stated that the quantity of that timber available was very small. Therefore, I am glad that the Minister has been in a position to state that he has 40,000 tons of timber available. I should like him to go a little further in the matter of issuing licences for the felling of trees, which the Minister for Industry and Commerce has refused, and which would remove a great deal of friction. The owners of trees should be allowed to cut them, not alone along the road, but also at a certain distance from the road. I should like the Minister to get in touch with the Department of Defence, which I understand is the main stumbling block with regard to the relaxation of the Order made during the war which prevented the cutting of these particular trees. I am not referring to commercial timber, but to old trees which are not fit for any commercial purpose and are only useful for fuel purposes. I think that Order should be done away with. There is no necessity for it now, if there was a necessity for it even during the war. A great deal of timber for fuel could be placed at the disposal of the people in my area if that Order were modified, if not entirely dispensed with, so that the trees to which I refer could be cut down. I am glad the Minister has 40,000 tons of timber but I should like him, when replying, to deal with the question of its ultimate destination and to say whether it will be distributed universally or confined to the areas immediately adjoining the forests in which it will be cut.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

I make an appeal to the Minister not to enforce restrictions which have been in operation up to the present by the Forestry Department. We are dealing with a very abnormal situation and we must adopt abnormal measures to meet it. I have listened for the past week in this House to a discussion of the fuel situation by way of questions on the Order Paper, yesterday's motion and this Estimate for the Forestry Department. I suggest that every Deputy can do a great deal to relieve the situation, particularly in the case of the poorer section of our community. The local public body of which I am a member approached estate owners in the district, within a radius of four or five miles of the town. We met with a very generous response. They offered firewood, not even on commercial terms, but free, so as to relieve the poorer sections, and it is with the poorer sections that we as public representatives should mainly concern ourselves because the better-off people have provided for their winter supplies. That is a well-known fact. I appeal to every member of this House, when he returns to his district, this week-end, and next week, if he is not called back here, to devote his efforts to providing fuel locally as far as possible. The people of this country are as generous and as Christian, when appealed to, to assist the section that I refer to, as the people anywhere else in the world.

A great deal of political capital has been made out of the fuel situation. I have no desire to create acrimonious discussion on this Vote. I appeal to the members to try to assist the people of their districts. We in Louth live in a non-turf area and it is our particular duty to get all the wood fuel that it is possible to secure for those people during this unfortunate emergency. We have surmounted greater difficulties in the past. It is true that in our lifetime we have never been confronted with such a situation as this, but we will not do any good or help to solve the problem by badgering one another. Let us all forget our political differences for the present, stand shoulder to shoulder and come out and help the people who need help most.

Mr. Moylan

I would like to take this opportunity of emphasising again that the policy of the Forestry Department is concerned with the growing of commercial timber and not with the production of firewood. In the areas planted by the Forestry Department there is bound to be quite a quantity of non-commercial timber, and all this as far as it can be made available will be made available to the people, and the fellings will be made everywhere there is a State forest so that the distribution of the timber that is to be cut will be widespread. But it is not the business of the Department to market it. The market, for the Forestry Department, must be at the forest, and the question of distribution is a matter entirely for another Department. I did not know until Deputy Giles spoke that laurel is a valuable firewood.

Captain Giles

Faith, they are.

Mr. Moylan

I thought from Deputy Flanagan's statement that all the laurels in Laoighis and Offaly were cut down and were being presented to me to-day. We cannot try to meet the particular difficulty at the moment by methods that will create greater difficulties later on. Our concern principally is for commercial timber, and we have cut down because of the emergency much timber that we would like to keep growing, in order to meet the particular difficulties of building and so on, during the past few years.

I want to make it quite clear that the licensing system must continue. Anyone passing through the country will realise how denuded it has been of timber for the past few years, to the general detriment, and if we remove the licensing system we will be doing a great damage because men will cut down timber that is valuable from the commercial point of view and utilise it for fuel. From that point of view, instead of being a cure for our diseases, it would be merely making our diseases much more malignant.

Therefore, we must insist on the licensing system. But there has been no difficulty created by the Department in the issue of licences for the felling of timber for fuel. All we need is the assurance that the timber about to be felled is not commercially of use. Generally, the local Guards have made the examination for us very swiftly and the permits have issued without any delay. Where any urgent case has cropped up within the past few weeks, we have not waited for the Garda report; we have sent inspectors out when any quantities of fuel had to be cut, so as to make the timber available at once.

There was a great deal of heat displayed yesterday about the fuel situation. Reading the paper this morning, I was amazed at the number of misstatements made in regard to fuel and the situation generally. This fuel situation is a mere passing emergency. In 1944, at the end of March, the Forestry Department had 8,000 tons of timber in hands that they could not sell; in March, 1945, they had 3,000 tons in hands that they could not sell, and in March, 1946, they had 6,000 tons in hands that they could not sell. All through the emergency it was open to local authorities and fuel merchants to undertake schemes for the cutting down and distribution of timber, and wherever these schemes were undertaken, the fullest co-operation was given by the Department of Forestry.

I have been wondering what Deputy Heskin meant when he spoke about co-operation between the Forestry Department and the private owners. For every ton of timber in the hands of the State, there are nine tons in the hands of private owners, and the only co-operation we can give them is to see that the licences demanded for felling are swiftly issued, and that has been done. We have, during the war years, developed our methods of dealing with firewood from the State forests to such an extent that we have now 18 saw mills as against four in 1940. That shows that we have not been quite blind to the fact that an emergency in regard to fuel might occur at any particular moment.

We undertook a big scheme of firewood production for the Dublin Corporation in 1944 and supplied a good deal of timber and the scheme was discontinued at the request of the Dublin Corporation. I do not think the Forestry Department was lacking in foresight in regard to that matter.

We have a long-term policy, and it must remain a long-term policy, for the production of commercial timber. I think it is a most valuable policy, and a thing to which everybody, including every Deputy, should give his fullest support. I may be wrong, but I have had for many years an idea, and I have been preaching the idea, that not alone should we have a long-term policy in regard to the production of commercial timber, but we should also have a long-term policy in regard to the production of firewood. It is very doubtful if the fuel situation of the future will ever be the same as it was in the past. It is very doubtful if the uses to which timber may be put will be confined to those for which timber was utilised in the past, and I have the idea that much land regarded as unplantable now for the production of commercial timber might be usefully taken over for the production of the less valuable firewood timber.

In the Forestry debate we had Deputies suggesting that certain areas in the country should be planted. The Forestry Department know the areas that are and can be planted, but many of the districts which Deputies suggest should be taken over for forestry are, to our knowledge, impossible of use for commercial purposes, but they might possibly be utilised for the development of a long-term firewood policy. I think there is something in that. The real reason why we cannot develop forestry—there are passing reasons— is the lack of land. As I have said, there are passing reasons, such as difficulty in getting wire and seeds and plants, but these things will pass. The great difficulty about the development of forestry is the getting of land, and Deputies who talk glibly about land being available in their constituencies for forestry purposes do not realise the difficulties the Forestry Department have in acquiring these lands, particularly when those who claim ownership of the lands have neither a moral nor a legal right to them.

You were not here when the Minister made the statement.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I will now make this statement. The Lord Mayor of Dublin came to me about this matter after it arose at the corporation committee meeting, which the Deputy attended, and because of the Lord Mayor's approach, action was decided upon, long before the Deputy decided to create a scene in the Dáil.

Mr. Byrne

Can I get an assurance—

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy will get no assurance from me at the moment.

Vote put and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Friday, 28 Feb 1947

Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 28 Feb 1947