The Minister's statement, when introducing this Estimate last week, was at once interesting and challenging. It was interesting inasmuch as it foreshadowed important improvements from the programmes in Radio Éireann and it was challenging inasmuch as the Estimate represented an increase of £128,000 over that of last year, this increase being mainly for the purpose of providing buildings, equipment and organisation for the new high-power, short-wave station in Athlone, from which, on the Minister's own admission, people from this country will derive very little benefit. I put a question to the Minister to-day to elicit information as to the total cost of buildings, equipment, staff and programmes of the new high-power station. The reply I received was that precise figures of the cost of the new short-wave station cannot be given at present as the buildings, equipment and staffing organisation are only in course of being provided. I was told that approximate estimated figures of cost under the headings specified would be circulated in the Official Report. I have obtained that statement. Surely, the Minister obtained an estimate of the cost of this new service before he proceeded with the work.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 62—Wireless Broadcasting (Resumed).
The figures which have been furnished to you are the nearest we can go to the probable cost.
Did the Minister obtain an estimate of the cost of this new service before he proceeded with the work?
These are the only estimates I have.
Two years ago, the Minister told the House that it was his intention to introduce a Supplementary Estimate for this additional service and that that Estimate would give Deputies an opportunity of discussing the details. What was responsible for the change of policy in the meantime?
I do not think that there has been any change of policy.
At that stage, the Minister regarded this as an additional and separate service. Now, he proposes to assimilate this service to the existing service from Radio Éireann. This additional service will involve expenditure of £227,000, plus whatever may be spent on two further aerial systems. Presumably, the total expenditure will reach £300,000 or £400,000. The Dáil should have been given an opportunity of discussing the inauguration of this additional service. It should have been told what the policy of the Minister was in regard to it and how we proposed to recover this expenditure in the years to come. The Minister has made no statement of that kind, nor has he given any worth-while details in the statement made last week. At the outset, he referred to the expenditure of £44,000 for the organisation of this new service but he has given the Dáil no indication of the type of organisation he proposes to build up. He has not shown how it will differ from the existing organisation of Radio Éireann or how it will differ from the organisation of the B.B.C. or radio systems in other countries. I submit that the Dáil is entitled to much more information in connection with the establishment of this new high-power station than the Minister has thought it worth while to give so far. I suggest to the Minister that, when replying to this debate, it will be his duty to give an exhaustive statement regarding this new high-power station and the policy he will pursue. He should tell us what the estimated costs will be and give us all the other details which are relevant and important.
I am rather at a loss to understand some of the figures the Minister supplied. Last year, provision was made for £91,600 for equipment. This year, there is provision for additional expenditure of £198,000. Further down the statement, the Minister states that £63,000 of the voted moneys represents a re-vote. That sum, I take it, is included in the amount provided in the Estimate this year. I suppose that the figure supplied in reply to my question —£227,000—will represent the total expenditure on this new service up to the end of the financial year, and that it is not the intention of the Minister to proceed this year with the erection of the two further aerial systems he has mentioned in the footnote. The cost of these additional aerials will, I presume, be provided for in subsequent years. The Minister, I take it, is satisfied that this expenditure is justified in the present circumstances of the country. I have grave doubts that an expenditure of £300,000 in this way is justified in present conditions. This high-power station may be regarded as in the nature of a luxury service. We could have afforded to wait another few years until the present world circumstances and the economic circumstances of this country were somewhat better than they are, before proceeding with the establishment of such a service.
I agree wholeheartedly with the plans the Minister is making to improve the service. People are entitled to as good a service as the circumstances warrant and there was room for improvement. This short-wave station will serve people outside the country and the people in the country will derive no benefit from it. According to the Minister's own words, it is intended to give our exiles and other sympathetic listeners in every country the best music and speech programmes it is possible for us to supply.
The Minister and the Director of Broadcasting have certainly improved the musical services distinctly on those we were accustomed to a few years ago. There has certainly been a marked improvement in that respect and I have no doubt that, as long as the Minister remains in charge of the Post Office, he will pay particular attention to the musical side of the programmes from Radio Éireann and the new high-power station. However, I am interested to know what he means by the speech programmes. I hope the station will not be used exclusively for broadcasting Fianna Fáil propaganda and telling the world what a wonderful individual the Taoiseach is and the miracles the members of his Government have achieved.
The world knows that already.
I hope the Minister will see that the speech programmes are representative of the life of the country and that every section and every Party is given a fair showing. Many Deputies here to-day complain that they are not getting a fair showing from Radio Éireann, that there is discrimination on some occasions. I sincerely hope the same complaint will not have to be made regarding the new station.
Last year, we were told the Minister hoped to have this new station working in April. Now we are told he does not expect it to be ready until the end of the financial year. I assume that the delay is due entirely to the difficulty in procuring equipment for the station and material for the buildings.
That is so.
In previous years, reference was made to the revenue made by the station from advertising. I notice that this year it has increased from £15,000 to £41,000. That is a very substantial increase. I do not object to a judicious number of advertising programmes, but there is always a danger that this feature will be overdone, to the exclusion of the legitimate numbers. I am not speaking of programmes like those regarding the Hospitals Sweeps, but of other types that are purely advertising programmes. We would not like to see Radio Éireann degenerate into a second Luxembourg. While it is important that the revenue would be earned in this way in order to reduce the cost of the service to a minimum, I suggest seriously to the Minister that he should not allow the service to degenerate into an advertising service so that people would come to regard Radio Éireann as a more important medium for carrying advertisements than newspapers. After all there is a medium for all the business people to advertise in, if they wish to avail of the daily newspapers and the weekly newspapers, which should be more effective than Radio Éireann. In any event, they are the legitimate channels in which to advertise goods in this or in any other country.
Radio in every country is intended, I think, to provide the people mainly with amusement and education. It is very hard to define exactly the true functions of radio. Some people maintain it is to provide entertainment, while others maintain its primary function should be education. Others say there should be a judicious blend of both. In any event, the present service is a fair blend of both. It certainly has improved during the last few years and the musical programmes have improved. They have cut out that type of jazz music and foreign music to which we were so much accustomed, and I think that is a decided advantage.
I complained last year that enough prominence was not given to agricultural subjects. The Minister replied that he was quite conscious of the fact that our main industry was not represented as it should be in Radio Éireann and that he was trying to organise that service in such a way as to provide interesting and educative programmes. I fully appreciate his difficulty. We have a good example in the talks on gardening by Mr. Sherrard, which are both interesting and instructive; and if the Minister took that pattern, he should be able to devise a series of lectures on agricultural subjects which would be just as attractive and interesting as those by Mr. Sherrard on the kindred subject of gardening. Despite what the Minister said last year I have not noticed any improvement in this respect. Many of the talks on agriculture are rather heavy, laborious and weary. They could be made brighter and more interesting and the brighter and more interesting they are the more beneficial they will be to the people. I agree that it is not every agricultural expert who has a voice suitable for broadcasting purposes and the field of selection may be more limited in this country than in Great Britain or European countries. Nevertheless, it should be possible for the Minister to find experts from agricultural institutes who would be able to put across on the air interesting and instructive talks on subjects of importance to our farmers. If the Minister keeps on trying, I have no doubt he will succeed eventually in devising a programme that will be both entertaining and instructive and one that farmers generally will look forward to on the night on which it is given.
I am sorry to learn that Mr. Brennan, the present director, is retiring from the service and I would like to join with the Minister in paying tribute to his services. I think every Deputy must recognise the fact that, under his management, care and direction, the service has undoubtedly improved. I personally regret that he is leaving the service, as I do think that, now that the Minister is about to add to the responsibilities of a radio director, Mr. Brennan's loss will be keenly felt. I only hope that the new director, about whose record I know nothing whatever, when he is appointed will be equal to his responsibilities. I would be inclined to say that for the future the Minister would require a director of exceptional ability and experience. There are some people inclined to doubt whether the new director has that experience or ability which would enable him to undertake successfully his new responsibilities.
There are a few minor points that I wish to bring to the Minister's notice. During the past week I tabled a question about the bad reception in the Ballinrobe district. The Minister left me under the impression that from the reports that he had received, there were no grounds for my complaint. As a result of further inquiries, I want to say that there are definite complaints in that district, due, I think, to some electrical disturbance caused by the use of machines in the locality, or the want of condensers on those machines. That is given as the cause of the trouble. There is a complete blot-out with a noise resembling that of the stuttering one hears at machine-gun practice. I think the Minister should find some device that would remedy this matter. I can assure him that the complaint made to me appears to be very well founded.
I also want to suggest to him that during the spring, summer and autumn months there should be an early morning broadcast, say between 9 and 10 o'clock, giving the weather forecast. That would be an immense benefit during the haymaking and harvesting seasons to those engaged in agriculture. Complaint is also made that the cattle market reports are not regularly broadcast. Some weeks they are missing altogether. That should be remedied. I agree with the last speaker that instructional matter on agriculture, our principal industry, should be broadcast regularly. That is particularly desirable at the present time when there is such a need for increased food production and when our imports are relatively so small. Instruction of a suitable nature should be given at least twice a week on some agricultural subject. A good deal could be said over the radio in two or three minutes. The people, I am sure, would eagerly await the reception of such instruction. I feel that the Department of Agriculture would be willing to assist the Director of Broadcasting in arranging for the broadcast of useful and seasonal instruction.
Almost a year ago we had a commemoration in the County Mayo in honour of one of the greatest Irishmen that the West has produced—Michael Davitt. The Taoiseach, Deputy Mulcahy, Deputy Dillon and myself were invited to speak. Some 12 or 14 days before I, at least, received notice that I would have to send in the script of my speech seven clear days before the meeting was held. I did not do so, and I presume that Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Dillon did not do so because they did not speak at the ceremony. I want to say for myself that I was not allowed to speak because I did not submit the script of my speech. I considered that the demand made on me was just in keeping with what appears to be the general policy of the Government at the present time. It is travelling more and more along the road towards a dictatorship. I was three years a member of the House at the time the commemoration ceremony was held. I wonder why was I asked to submit the script of my speech. I do not think it is a usual thing. I see that the Minister shakes his head.
It is usual, even in the case of sermons.
I broadcast once and I gave no script.
You got away with it.
There was no demand in a formal way made on me.
Was it during the emergency?
The broadcast was on the Budget introduced in the year before the emergency.
That is a special feature.
There was no emergency at this time last year when the commemoration was held.
The rules were there and they had to be observed.
What did the Minister expect I was going to say if I were allowed to broadcast? Did he expect I was going to broadcast revolutionary stuff, or that I was going to say something nasty that would embarrass the Government in their relations with the Governments of America, England or France? What is the good of it?
What is the meaning of it?
Did anyone expect that if Deputy Mulcahy, Deputy Dillon and myself were allowed to speak that we were going to try to put some bloodcurdling stuff over—embarrassing stuff of some kind? Why was it that I was not allowed to speak in my native County of Mayo? My family have been natives of Mayo for, I suppose, 300 years—since the time of Cromwell's cry of "To Hell or to Connaught". Did the Minister, from his experience of me as a member of the House, think that I was going to say something horrible over the air? At any rate, when a question was raised about it here later it transpired that the Taoiseach only submitted notes of his speech, scribbled in pencil, on the Saturday night before a meeting. Is that correct?
It was not what the Minister thought, but the fact that there was a rule there which had to be observed.
Who made the rules?
Who broke the rules?—the Taoiseach.
The notes were there, and we would certainly have met the Deputies if they had tried to meet us.
If it came to his notice that someone had been requested to speak at Straide whose record was such that the Minister had good reason to be afraid, it would be a horse of a different colour.
If the director thought that there was some person that he had reason to be afraid of then, of course, he would not be put on at all.
Hear, hear. Why then all this cavilling?
Is it that there is a certain doubt about me, about Deputy Mulcahy and about Deputy Dillon?
I will deal with the matter when replying.
The reason why I was not allowed to speak in Mayo was quite plain. It was simply because of the Party of which I was a member and leader, and because of the failure of Fianna Fáil in regard to the land policy. It struck me as very fitting to hear the Taoiseach on that occasion broadcasting and bringing back memories of Michael Davitt, the man who did more to raise the peasantry of this country from slavery than any other man. He certainly did more than Fianna Fáil did with all its promises. I think that is the kernel of the whole situation. He was standing there in the middle of a district and broadcasting from it, a district in which I am ashamed to say poverty is rife. After 25 or 26 years of self-government we are still in almost exactly the same position as we were under the landlord system. There was absolutely no need to enforce such a rule. The Miniister is sheltering himself behind the fact that there was such a rule. The Director of Broadcasting had not the power to make any such rule. I am sure that if he suggested any such rules they would have to get the sanction of the Minister.
Of course, and they were very useful rules.
Has it been the Minister's experience of me since I became a member of the House that I am a red revolutionary and that I was going to go out deliberately to embroil the Taoiseach and the Government in some embarrassment or in a row with, probably, the neighbouring country across the water? Is that so? The Minister smiles in a shame-faced way, but it is nothing to be proud of. Suppose the Taoiseach were in opposition and went down to address his constituents in the County Clare or the people in the district where he was born and that a Fine Gael Government, a Labour Government or a Clann na Talmhan Government prevented him from speaking unless he submitted the script of his speech seven days before the meeting, I wonder how he would like it? I know that if I were the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, or if I had any say in the Government, I would not do it. This is only another example, an indication of the road which the Government are travelling and that is towards an absolute dicatorship. The Minister need not laugh. It is very clear, I think.
Mr. Corish
I wish to bring two matters to the Minister's notice. I understand that two members of the news staff in Radio Éireann are members of the National Union of Journalists. I believe that in a short time these two members will come under the control of the Civil Service and that thereupon they must cease membership of the union which caters for journalists. I want to put it to the Minister that the Civil Service staff organisations at present do not cater for journalists because they are not conversant with and would not be able to deal with the various problems that confront journalists in their profession.
Apart from that fact, I would remind the Minister that the two persons of whom I speak have been in the National Union of Journalists for the last 15 years and that it would be very hard on them to have to forgo the benefits they have built up for themselves during that period. I would ask the Minister, therefore, to allow these two members of the news staff to remain in their union and also, when he recruits the other members he mentioned in introducing the Estimate, that he will allow these also to become or to remain members of the National Union of Journalists because, as I have stated, their problems can be dealt with only by a union which caters exclusively for journalists and the Civil Service staff organisations cannot cater for that profession.
As I understand, the Minister said he had appointed reporters throughout the country, that the news staff has been increased and that a system of local correspondence is being built up. If I may presume to speak on behalf of journalists, I would ask the Minister how many news correspondents he has appointed, and the districts in which they have been appointed, because my information is that he has not journalists doing these jobs at the present time at all and that people giving commentaries on the day's sport and the weekend's sport from Radio Éireann depend mainly on information collected from Garda stations and local people who have nothing at all to do with journalism. In my estimation that is not fair and I would protest against the system of collecting news and sport items from people who are not members of the profession, from post offices, Garda stations and from summaries made by country members of the Gaelic Athletic Association. I would suggest that in big provincial towns and other districts the Minister should contact recognised journalists and recognised news correspondents and make arrangements with them for the supply of news items and the other information that is required by Radio Éireann. The Minister at present is taking the bread and butter out of the mouths of members of the profession.
I still maintain the view I expressed last year, the first occasion I had to speak on this Estimate, that Radio Éireann is one of the best broadcasting stations, at least in the British Isles, but I would suggest that Radio Éireann should avail more of the talent which is in the country and that some improvements could be carried out. In the winter evenings Radio Éireann should broadcast Grand Opera, or light opera and musical comedy. About seven or eight years ago some very admirable broadcasts were made of the comic operas of Gilbert and Sullivan. Gilbert and Sullivan operas may not be as popular on the stage as they were a few years ago but I think that is due, not to the music, but to the libretto. I remember broadcasts from Radio Éireann of recordings of Gilbert and Sullivan operas, with commentaries. We do not want to be bored by the outdated libretto of Mr. Gilbert but the music is still extremely good and extremely popular and, in my estimation, very entertaining. The winter evenings would be a very suitable time for that type of broadcast. There should be some system of broadcasting records of Grand Opera, light opera, musical comedy and the various popular musical plays.
I would also suggest that in conjunction with Question Time on Sunday evenings, local concerts should be broadcast. The body or society under whose auspices Question Time is run take it on themselves to employ the very best local artistes to fill the concert bill that usually follows Question Time. If Radio Éireann availed of the opportunity to broadcast such concerts, they would be getting down to the heart of the country and would afford an opportunity to local talent to express itself.
I wish to offer my congratulations to the Minister on his decision to enlarge the Radio Éireann orchestra. That is a very admirable step and I understand that he has in mind the formation of a national orchestra, which is something we have sadly lacked in this country. I would suggest to the Minister that there is highbrow music, low-brow music and also "middle-brow" music. Middle-brow music, as the term implies, caters for the ordinary mass of the people. We do not want to go down to la-da-di-dah or boo-boop-bi-dooh or up to Beethoven, but there are types of opera, musical comedies and overtures which Radio Éireann could broadcast to a greater extent. When we want that type of music we usually have to switch to a British station. Radio Éireann should give a little more of that type of music. In that connection also the Minister should avail more of the services of the Army bands. The Army bands can compare with any of the bands in England or in the world, and I do not think we hear enough of them. The Minister also referred to the matter of employing a full-time company of actors. I would like to know what sort of a response he got to that. I would like to know if he got a good response. In my estimation the acting profession in Ireland has gone down considerably. How anybody in the Minister's Department expects to get good Irish actors at the salaries offered beats me. We have admirable acting ability in this country but unfortunately many of our actors and actresses go across to the Denham Studios and to the different film-making studios on the other side. We have actors in the Lord Longford Company in the Gate Theatre, in the MacLiammoir-Hilton Edwards Company, who can compare favourably with any British actor and who, if they liked, could work on the films but who are, nevertheless, content to remain over here in Ireland for the sake of acting.
I cannot understand why we cannot avail of the services of those actors and actresses. I think I am right in saying that the best actor in this country could not earn more than £500 per annum from Radio Éireann and that the rates which would be offered would be absolutely miserably low. I think I am right in saying that the Department did not get any satisfactory response to this appeal for actors and actresses simply because their rates were too low.
I wish to make some further observations on this matter. I know that when some of these actors applied some time ago one of the queries they were asked was what was their knowledge of Irish. I claim to be as good a supporter of the Irish language as anybody in this House, or in the country for that matter. I am always ready to take an opportunity of speaking on behalf of the Irish language, but it is absolutely unfair to debar good actors of 40 and 45 years from broadcasting from Radio Éireann simply because they have not a sufficient knowledge of Irish. I could give the Minister the names of at least five out of the ten best actors and actresses in this country who do not know two words of Irish. It is not their fault that they do not know the language. Because of their age they did not have an opportunity of learning the language as well as Radio Éireann would like them to. Such people should not be barred from broadcasting from Radio Éireann. I met a gentleman last Sunday night who, I suppose, would be rated as among the first five best actors in the country. He is pro-Irish but he does not know the language. He did not get the job because he had not a sufficient knowledge of the language. I can give the Minister the name of this gentleman. I must say I think the whole matter is deplorable.
I wish to refer to the new short-wave station from which it is proposed to broadcast to America. We are going to give the world a better idea of how we in this country live. We are going to demonstrate our talent, our music and our acting ability to North America and to the world in general. I do hope that Radio Éireann will not misrepresent the Irishman. I hope that we will not have the Irishman represented as being one who goes around in a green knee breeches waving a shillelagh and says "begob" and "begorra". We have too much of that from the American stage, from the British stage and from the British broadcasting stations, and I hope that we will not do so too. I would not be a bit surprised if we did, but I sincerely hope that we will not get that type of stage Irishman represented to North America and the other countries of the world.
I do hope, with further reference to this new station, that we will introduce, if only very subtly, the question of Partition. I know the subject is contentious even in this House and that different Deputies have their own opinions as to whether Partition will ever be abolished or not but I think the suggestion is worth considering. We do not want red-roaring revolutionary speeches about the Border and about Partition but I think we certainly could put our case to the world through this short-wave station. I will not attempt to suggest what particular lines or views should be adopted but I think we should exploit this new short - wave station in the matter of Partition.
I am glad that we are going to have this short-wave station erected and that it will soon be utilised for the purposes for which the Minister intends it to be used. Deputy Corish has referred to one matter in which I am very interested and for which the radio should be mostly used and that is to convey our manner of life here to the people who are living outside this country and to other nations—the way we live, our democratic system and, in particular, our problem of Partition. I always maintain and shall continue to maintain that we in this country require more so than ever before a Minister for Propaganda.
That particular Ministry would be more equipped now for fulfilling its duties than ever before, seeing that we are now going to have this station to which the Minister has referred. I think it would be one way of conveying to the people outside this country the position in relation to Partition and of letting them know the circumstances of this unnatural division which was imposed upon us so many years ago. Outside Ireland itself it has always been impossible to tune into Radio Éireann. A number of other stations seem constantly to interrupt the music or the speaker or the announcer. It is nearly always impossible to hear whatever is coming over the air. We are told by the Minister that that will not be so in the near future. That being the case, this is a golden opportunity for the Government and the Minister should encourage the Government to establish a Ministry or Department of Propaganda in order to convey the truth over the radio. There is no doubt about it, the facts about the position of this country are misrepresented abroad—even in the case of our neighbour, Great Britain. It is surprising how little the people in that country who are living so close to us know about our position: how ignorant they are of how we in this country live. This is one way of destroying the poisoned pen of those who engage in the type of misrepresentation in which they do engage in Great Britain and outside Great Britain. The radio is a powerful weapon, and I think it could be used to undo the harm which has been done by those who are engaged in building up a false impression so far as this country is concerned.
Furthermore, I think the radio should be used to give more information to the people in regard to agriculture. For a great part of the day it is closed down when it could be engaged in giving useful information. It is very rarely that you hear lectures on agriculture on the radio. There are a lot of other things which could be conveyed on the radio which would be of benefit to the people. We are a young country so far as the freedom of the country is concerned. In this part of Ireland which is free we have only had our own Government for 22 or 23 years. There are a lot of things which could be pointed out to the people, such as matters in relation to civic duty and civic spirit. I think the radio to-day, if properly used, is a greater weapon even than the Press, because in rural Ireland many people are unable to buy newspapers as they live at a distance from a town and are unable to go in to buy the papers. They avail of the wireless in the evenings. It is a source of company to those who cannot avail of the pictures or dancing or who cannot get the newspapers. It brings to them news not only in relation to this country but to matters outside this country. There are many ways of entertaining the people with a view to helping them to be better citizens.
I am not sufficient of an expert to say what type of music we should have. I listen in to the music on the radio and I do not find any fault with it. I am no judge as to whether it is good or bad. We should also use the radio to help to develop the Irish language more than has been done in the past. We could use it to help people to realise the benefits which would accrue from the Irish language. Because it is pointed out to them time and again that failure to develop our own tongue means putting a limit to our nationality and our freedom a lot of people look upon it as a joke, while it is the truth. The radio could help to remove that false impression.
Furthermore, it would be of benefit to the agricultural community if the radio could be used for conveying to them information in regard to the price of cattle and things of that kind. It would be of immense importance to people who are unable to get the newspapers to have the news conveyed to them over the radio. Sometimes the radio refers to certain things and then announces that the full information will be published in the papers the next day. Does the Minister seriously think that the people are going to walk into a town and purchase a newspaper to find out what will be published in it? I can well understand the radio becoming a very strong competitor of the newspapers from that point of view. Nevertheless, we cannot consider that. The interests of the people must come first, rather than the fact that you may harm the circulation of the newspapers. I can well understand that if you give over Radio Éireann important announcements in detail people are not going to go to the town to buy the newspapers. If the newspapers are to offset that, they will have to make it their business to see that the papers are delivered to the houses of the people who are desirous of reading them. Otherwise, Radio Éireann will take the place of the Press. I think it is wrong just to announce that such-and-such a thing will be published in the next day's papers and not to go the whole way and give the full details of the matter, whether the announcement has reference to price control or whatever else it may be.
As the Minister is aware, since I came to this House I have felt very strongly about the necessity of developing Radio Éireann with a view to bringing a certain amount of comfort not only to our people here but to Irish exiles abroad. I can assure the Minister that there will be none so pleased as the Irishmen and Irishwomen who live outside this country when the new short-wave station is working. There will be none so pleased as these Irish men and women who live across the Channel, and I assume the same thing applies to those who live in America and other parts of the world, when they will be able to tune in to Radio Éireann without being interrupted by somebody talking about the Scandinavian countries or other countries.
If in the start-off of your new station you are unable to give satisfaction in regard to musical items and items of entertainment and news it will be a bad thing. It would be better to wait six months or even a year before starting, because if the start is bad, and if those who are interested and who have been waiting for a considerable time for this short-wave station find that it is lacking in something that they expected, it will create a bad impression and it will take a very considerable time to undo the harm created.
I advise the Minister not to open the station until he has everything as near perfection as possible so that when the station is opened we will be able to create the impression expected by those who have been waiting anxiously for it for a considerable number of years. As I said, none will appreciate it so much as those who live outside the country. Many times, when I lived outside this country, an announcement was made that on St. Patrick's Day or some other day the head of the Government or some other person would speak, but, when you tuned in, you could only hear a few words here and there. That was very disappointing. I have had the experience of asking English people to listen in on such an occasion, but they found they could not hear anything and I felt ashamed. That will not be so in the future. Let us hope that when the station is opened we will be able to give to the people outside this country the satisfaction we should like to give them, that the Minister will avail of the opportunity to use Radio Éireann with the object of bringing to the outer world the true position in relation to Partition. The radio would be a great weapon and would have tremendous effect in that respect.
Let us look back on the effects of radio during the war and consider its reactions on the people then. The radio during the war was just as important, in a sense, as an army. It had a terrible effect in many ways and also a demoralising effect upon the various armies and the peoples engaged in the war. We all listened at one time or another, I am sure, to the gentleman who has now passed into the next world and who was known as Lord Haw-haw. You can well imagine the effect his broadcasts had from the propaganda point of view. He was subtle and capable in putting over his stuff on behalf of the German régime. If we could only have a man who would put over, not the type of thing that he broadcast, but the real truth, with the same power that he possessed, look at the impression it would create in other countries. I believe it would go a long way in bringing home to the peoples of other countries the position in which we are placed.
We all know of the poisoned pens of journalists in England and outside England with reference to this country. We know how we have been misrepresented—devilishly and deliberately misrepresented—by these gentlemen who are paid for doing so. We all know the strength of the pen. We could use Radio Éireann to undo all that. That is why I strongly urge that we should have a Department of Propaganda. If we are in earnest in our efforts to destroy the poisoned pens of these journalists who stoop to that type of propaganda, and if we are at all anxious to remove from the map of Ireland the mark of Partition, we should make very effective use of our radio station.
An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.
I must say that when I first looked at this Estimate in the Book of Estimates I was very pleasantly surprised, because I saw that under sub-head A the salaries, wages and allowances have gone up from £41,000 to £97,000, an increase of £55,000 on the original £41,000, which is well below the one-third, or so, that is represented generally in these Estimates.
My pleasure was not very long-lived, because I gather that £44,000 of the £55,000 is for a new organisation. I do not pretend that these figures are, therefore, exact, but it would appear that the increase in salaries for the old staff comes to £11,000 on £44,000—that is, about 25 per cent. If that is the case, then this is a scandal, because the old £41,000 has now, if taken in comparison with 1939, a purchasing power of about £20,000 divided amongst the staff. Compared with 1932 it has a purchasing power of about one-third of the £41,000. It is now proposed to add £11,000, and even if that has a complete purchasing power of the amount it is supposed to represent, they will have £26,000 instead of the old £41,000. So that by a little manipulation of the currency we have so many of these people in the Government service, which ought to be setting a good standard to the rest of employers, fooled out of £15,000 in the year.
That is something the Minister ought not to be ready to have broadcast over the new station. If that is to be the authentic voice of Ireland, it will be a very whining voice and he will get nothing but complaints if he allows that situation to develop and become permanent, so far as the salaries of the people who are connected with the broadcasting station are concerned.
Some of these days I hope repetition will get this matter clear, that at the moment the £ buys about 10/- worth of what it bought in 1939. I do not propose to follow this down through the various members of the staff, from the so-called highly paid to those at the end of the list, and ask you to try to imagine what the homes that these moneys are pouring into are like with the salaries reduced by half. That is what has happened, but I think the real picture is something worse. Kings in the old days clipped coins. At a later stage they manufactured money for themselves. We have found a better method. We keep salaries low and allow prices to rise, and having given people about a quarter of an increase on their salaries we ask them to do more work than what they did before. I cannot understand the conscience or the reason behind that, and as for the optimism that better work will be done for a lesser salary—that passes my understanding.
Comment was made by Deputy Blowick—and I want to emphasise what he said—on this matter of censorship or guardianship of what people say when they are invited to broadcast. I was invited to do so only once and my experience was such that I would never willingly accept an invitation to do so again. It was an occasion when it was thought a good idea to have different people expressing their opinions on the Budget which had been introduced. I presented myself to the broadcasting station and I was promptly asked for my script. I had not got one, but I had an envelope with a few notes jotted on it. For a moment there was a very embarrassing pause and it looked as if the whole thing would be called off, but it had been generally understood that certain people would speak over the radio and that I was chosen by my Party to do so. Eventually, under these circumstances I was allowed to speak—that the director faced me when I faced the microphone and he stayed there with full control of the signals to those in charge of the transmission, so that I could be cut off at any moment if I said anything of which he did not approve.
I could only believe it was that; I could not imagine that I had been asked to broadcast and that there was an impression that I might say something disorderly or rude, without thinking at all of things that were obscene or indecent, over the radio. But the appearance of the director as he faced me was that of a man ready for the worst and the only thing that assured him to allow the broadcast to go on was that there could not be more than one or two evil words getting away. Why should anyone be subjected to that indignity? If a person is in a representative capacity as a member of the Dáil, if a person is in the literary movement—anybody who has merit enough to reach the position that he is chosen by various people to represent them—why should he not be allowed to speak over the radio without suffering such indignities? I am not so enamoured of the diction of some of the prepared stuff that comes across the radio.
I have no objection to an address being ruled on from the point of view of style, but surely the Minister will realise that, if a person is asked to broadcast and if he is going to be ignorant, coarse or loutish enough or bad enough, if he has any of the vices that might prompt him to say improper or undesirable things, with the audience he has over the radio he is going to suffer much more himself than anybody else. I should imagine that one effort of that sort would be sufficient.
In any event is there not enough trust in the people who are asked to speak over the radio to ensure that they will be allowed to say freely what they want to say and that nobody is going to look for the manuscript to see whether it requires any censorship or touching up or somebody standing by to cut them off, with the guillotine ready to fall in case some undesirable words should escape? As I say, I had one experience and I certainly do not want another. I certainly say that people of a representative type, such as those who were invited to speak in connection with the Davitt and Davis celebrations, should not be subjected to interference of this kind. The back-ground or the justification of it is that you want to prevent people from saying anything that may be offensive on a current topic. None of these things was in the minds of the people who operate these guardianship ideas. This was clearly an attempt to use the Davis and Davitt celebrations as an occasion for Government propaganda, and unless the broadcaster was prepared to fit his broadcast into the framework arranged, he was not welcomed. The view of the station, apparently, is that they are better off without such people.
That may be a good policy for the time being but it is a bad policy when one considers the ultimate result, and that we are parading ourselves before the world as a reasonable community where people with varying views are allowed to express these views and can express them in a way that will not give offence to others. They may have strong views and express them strongly but at least they should be given the credit of knowing how to express them without causing undue pain to others. There is no doubt the main idea on the occasion of the Davis and Davitt celebrations was to organise them in such a way as to get further worshippers to crowd around the shrine at which the Taoiseach sat, and if it was not going to serve that purpose, it did not matter about the feelings of the individuals concerned. I understand this difference was made, that whereas other invitees to the Davitt meeting were asked to give a script of what they intended to say, it was sufficient in the case of the Taoiseach to ask for the notes.
The script was given.
The Minister admitted here before that only the notes were asked for.
I understand the script was given.
I am quoting from your own statement.
I understand it was the script was given.
Did the Minister not state some time ago that only notes were given?
I shall deal with that again.
I should like the Minister to say definitely whether only notes or the full script was given.
It was practically the full script.
I think if there is any person from whom a script should be demanded, it should be the Taoiseach because the Taoiseach's words have to be very carefully looked into. If you want to look for the cloven hoof, if I might mix the metaphor, you certainly must look for it in the case of the Taoiseach's broadcast. While other people are in a position to recognise what they intended to say, in case there is any question afterwards, it can scarcely be said in connection with the Taoiseach.
Several Deputies have referred to Partition in connection with the new broadcasting station. The Taoiseach, through our broadcasting system, addressed the people of America, or our people in America, on St. Patrick's Day. I wonder was that spoken from a script? If he went down with a full script of the broadcast and the chief director made a demand to see it beforehand, I doubt if the Taoiseach would have given it to him. If the director did ask to see it beforehand, I wonder why one particular allusion was not cut out. The Taoiseach likes to pose before the world as one who is learned in international affairs. His comment in this instance, as far as I remember, was that on two big questions, recently before the world, Partition had been discouraged as a remedy, that Partition had not been accepted. These two cases were Palestine and India. It is a pity that he said that as he may have to eat his own words or else explain them when it may not be so easy to do so. It would look now as if the two distinct cases in which Partition will be a remedy will be both Palestine and India. Of course, the Taoiseach always likes to display his learning but the Taoiseach may well be cited as outstanding amongst the number of examples of where a little learning is so completely dangerous. The main point I am making is whether the Director of Broadcasting demanded and received the script of what the Taoiseach said before it was delivered.
In this connection, I must say that I shudder when I see that the new broadcasting station is going to be so arranged that news bulletins will be broadcast regularly so as to present a continuous picture of Irish events and activities. If these bulletins are going to be a reproduction of the stuff we get as an explanation of what happens in Dáil Éireann on occasions, I would ask that they should be cut out. It may be a good Party script but it is not a good news script. It is not a script that gives anybody an idea that there is anything in the way of reason going on in this House other than what comes from the Government Benches. If we are to get a continuous picture of events and activities broadcast constantly, is it going to be a Party description, because that is what we have through the news bulletins? You do not get much Party colour into the stock exchange news, but once it comes to anything that is capable of colouring, the colour is undoubtedly given.
Deputy Roddy had queried this new broadcasting station from the special point that the Minister years ago promised a full and detailed estimate of what was intended and an itemised cost of the carrying out of whatever was intended. That was certainly promised a couple of years ago but we are still in the stage of being told, in the phrase of the Minister, that the station is almost entirely equipped. Deputy Roddy got a reply from the Minister which suggested that the nearest he could go to an estimate was that the station would cost anything between £250,000 and £300,000 or £400,000. I remember the phrase that was used before, that we were going to hear the authentic voice of Ireland on a short wave. Deputy Corish thinks that the phrase means—I do not think so—that we would have a picture of life in the Irish community as lived to-day. Is that really intended? Are we going to get a picture of life in this community as it is lived to-day? because if so, wisdom would suggest how urgent it is that we should not have a broadcasting station.
Do we want the authentic voice of Ireland picturing community life at the low level at which we have it in Ireland to-day? Is that something we want advertised? Do we want that broadcast? Do we want people to understand and hear the situation to which the people of the country have been reduced? Would that mean, for instance, that the Minister would broadcast details about emigration, or would that be regarded as something awkward, something we had better close our eyes to? I presume that, when he talks of the authentic voice of Ireland, it will not be the same old repetitive dullness of the céilidhe band which we have regularly from Radio Éireann. If it is only that, it will not do so much harm, though it may bore people, but as to the authentic voice of Ireland telling about community life as lived in this country, I suggest that we are not in a state in which that is a desirable project at the moment.
The Minister, in his opening statement, said that the improvements which are proposed would be very desirable for the home service, even if the inauguration of an overseas service was not being embarked upon. Why not try it on the home dog, so to speak, first? Why not let us have these improvements? So far as it is a question of increasing the strength of the orchestra, getting in outside conductors and going ahead generally on the lines of the symphony concerts and so on, that is all good, and let us who are paying the licence enjoy a little more of that at home, but why not test out the new scheme at home? What about giving us at home a little more of the authentic voice of Ireland and the life of the community as it is lived here first and seeing the advantage of it? So far as I understand, it will not make any difference in cost because we propose to go in for this expenditure and we are told about £150,000 is being gathered in between licences and advertising and the whole matter is to cost about £370,000. We will not get any money from those who will receive the authentic voice of Ireland abroad. Why not have a year in which our own people will be given this and nobody else—try it out on our own people first —and have a poll from time to time to see how the thing is working, whether the items are representative, whether there is a sort of artificial parade of a prosperity that is not here, whether the thing approaches reality or whether the reality is so grim in fact that we would rather have a little silence in respect of the whole thing for some time until we have a chance of getting on our feet again?
I wonder would the Minister consider allowing, say, these new actors, this new troupe of actors he is going to get attached to him permanently, instead of the people who give us their services casually, and, say, the new orchestra at the new salaries, an evening per month in which they could broadcast of their own free will, particularly about the station and about those who run the station, with special advertence to the conditions under which they are asked to live and some little sideline which might be given on the artistic temperament and how it finds itself cribbed and cabined, or else, loosened up, by the conditions of permanent association with Radio Éireann, instead of having their chances to make something casually and give casually to Radio Éireann. Even if the Minister will not allow us licence holders to listen in to that broadcast, can he not do it privately and let himself and his staff listen and learn from the criticism of those who are suffering under the particular spreading of the money in this Vote?
The way the new service is run has for a long time been objected to, and we had a special outbreak in that connection in respect of a particular announcer who had to leave the service of Radio Éireann because he took a political line that was opposed to the Government. What political inhibitions are put upon those who broadcast? Is it one of them that they may appear on no platform except a Government platform, or is there any limit to the mild criticism they may utter of Government, if they decide to affiliate themselves with some Party other than the Government Party? Is there a line drawn and are the announcers, the compéres and so on given a completely clear view of where and how far they may go before they decide to enter the service of Radio Éireann? It is quite clear to anybody who has considered the circumstances in this connection that a very strict prohibition is put upon them, that it is again with the idea of attaining the same objective as was sought to be attained when Deputy Blowick and others were asked to send in their scripts, and that it is a Party angle that this whole thing is viewed from. The only excuse given is the excuse which the Minister has given, not in the House but on occasions from platforms, that once you belong to the Party he represents, you belong to the State, the State is the authority and all the rest of it.
I have often wondered, when I listen to things on the radio, whether there is sufficient imagination about the matters broadcast to us. Deputy Corish, I notice, has an admiration for Radio Éireann. I put myself on the other side—I do not like it. I do not at all agree with this wholehearted criticism of the station that nothing good ever comes from it. That is not so, of course, but as to whether I get value—and I am not neglecting the difference in the fees which may be paid on the other side and the resources of broadcasting in America, England and on the Continent when it was open—I can think of some very small stations which would not be paraded as an outrageous comparison with what we have here, from which one derives more enjoyment than one derives from the station here. Whatever is done here is rather stereotyped. There has been a little attempt to get variety in recent years, but the imagination which carried the thing a little forward appears to have then waned and there is no further drive to get new situations developed.
I think Deputy Corish is right when he says that there is artistic talent enough in the country. The only thing we have to recognise—and I am sure Deputy Corish recognises it—is that a tremendous amount of the talent we have here is not harnessed up to Radio Éireann. Some of the people who have this talent do not readily allow themselves to be recruited by Radio Éireann, and that is because, I think, of the conditions of service. When one tunes in to programmes from elsewhere and listens to people there, whether it be music, something in the way of drama, news or anything else, one hears voices which one feels that, with a little daring in the way of expense, could have been captured for this country, and one feels that these people could have been associated with Radio Éireann instead of being associated with some of the stations elsewhere. That is only an aspect of what we have got all through life here at the moment. A great many of the people of worth and talent here are flying the country because they cannot see any great future for themselves here.
In connection with trade matters here, I often wonder if Radio Éireann would ever think of enlightening the people about certain things happening in the background. They could give us enlightenment on certain important matters. Take the case of Córas Iompair Éireann. One knows that, in connection with railway economics, there is an old business about trying to charge what the traffic can bear. I should like to be allowed to listen in through the radio to a meeting of the board of directors of Córas Iompair Éireann when they are deciding what rates they will charge. The general view is that they charge what the public will stand, or what they think the public will stand, instead of what the traffic will bear. I have often been intrigued—I have talked to colleagues in Dáil Éireann about it—by the thought of what happens at a board meeting of the Central Bank when they come to decide on the rate of interest to be paid on bank accounts here, or generally how they are going to establish the finances of the country and what they do in that connection. If there was an amount of learning and argument and if very heavy matters were discussed at that meeting, it would be worth while letting the outsider know just what is discussed. Again, of course, the common view is that somebody calls for a copy of the London Times to see what rate is struck in England, and then they decide that is what we shall have here. We should be let into some of these secrets, and allowed to know something that would illuminate the life that we have to lead here. In that connection, I notice that recently a “Question Time” was run by the Independent, and one of the questions asked was what the meaning of the phrase “not worth a rap” was.