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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 May 1947

Vol. 106 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41 — Local Government.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £552,180 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1948, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including Grants to Local Authorities and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Miscellaneous Grants and a Grant-in-Aid.

This year, as Deputies will see from the Book of Estimates, the Estimate, for the Department of Local Government reflects the far-reaching change which has been made in the central administration by the establishment of the new Departments of Health and Social Welfare, respectively. Many of the sub-heads which formerly appeared in the Estimate for the Department of Local Government and Public Health are now to be found either in the Votes for one or other of those Departments or in the Votes for Miscellaneous Social Services and Food find Supplementary Allowances. The sub-heads in the Estimate for which I am now responsible relate solely to those functions which remain as the proper concern of the Minister for Local Government, viz.: the general supervision of local administration, including in particular the functions of the local authorities in relation to housing, town planning, roads and bridges, water supplies, sewerage systems, burial grounds, fire brigades and amenities and recreational facilities such as parks, playgrounds, swimming pools, libraries and village halls. Until the end of the present production campaign the Department of Local Government will continue to be responsible for turf production by local authorities; it is hoped that after that time Bord na Móna will be in a position to take over the task hitherto imposed on those bodies. In addition to those which I have mentioned, the Estimate also includes provisions for certain ancillary services relating to the constitution of local bodies, the combined purchasing system, superannuation of local officers, the administration of the franchise and electoral law, and the audit of all local authority accounts. In regard to the audit service I should perhaps explain that the auditors attached to the Department of Local Government will audit not only those local authority accounts which relate to the services under the control of the Minister for Local Government but also those under the control of the Minister for Health and, the Minister for Social Welfare respectively.

So far as variations in the details of Estimates are concerned there is little that is not self-explanatory, and where this is not quite the case the reasons for the changes will, I hope, become clear as I proceed. I should like, however, to refer to a couple of changes now. Salaries under sub-head A show an increase. In view of the post-war programme of road improvements we have added three to our staff of engineers dealing with road improvement and maintenance. The increase in cost of the staff, however, is due principally to the consolidation of salaries with cost-of-living bonus. There is also an increase of £16,000 under sub-head I (1) — contributions towards the housing charges of local authorities under the 1932 Act. This increase is automatic and is related to the fact that total expenditure under the Housing Acts continues to increase from year to year. The operations under the Act of 1932 by local authorities may be measured by the advances made to those authorities for the provision of houses. These now amount to over £22,500,000. The slum clearance houses built under this Act to date number 21,652; municipal houses erected for normal housing to 10,466; the number of labourers' cottages, 20,770. I may mention that the State capital liability in respect of houses erected under the 1932 Act is £6,964,117 for urban houses and £3,863,838 for rural houses.

Of those services for which I am responsible, the service which at the moment demands our closest attention and for which there exists most acute and widespread need, is, undoubtedly, the provision of new houses. Unfortunately, our efforts to cope with this problem are still crippled by the world-wide shortage of building materials. It is true that these shortages do not manifest themselves in the same way, at the same time, in every place. For instance, there is no shortage of timber in Finland, or of slates, say, in Ireland, or of ironmongery, say, in Belgium. But, in our case, we are short of timber, cement, ironmongery, lead and copper. For all of these, we have a demand which is far from being satisfied. And we are very short in the most necessary element of all: skilled labour. The position, however, in this last-mentioned respect has eased somewhat latterly, as the improved wages and conditions embodied in recent employment agreements have induced men who left the country to seek employment during the war period to return home. I need scarcely tell the House that every effort is being made to relieve the shortage of building materials. The demand, however, for these materials on the part of countries that have suffered war damage is, naturally, very great; and those countries which can supply any of them from their own resources are reserving them for their own use, and, where there is any surplus available for export, the exports are being strictly controlled.

Our difficulty, therefore, is not to find means of stimulating building activity, for there is much more building projected than there are materials with which to build, but by means of building licences to apportion fairly the limited supply of materials available. The principles which are being followed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in dealing with this problem are set out in the White Paper on the Post-War Building Programme, which was published in February, 1945. Housing proposals notified in connection with that programme accounted for more than half of the total projects. The Minister for Industry and Commerce intends that the allocation of resources should be such as to maintain house-building at that level, so that, so far as it can be assured, activity in that branch of the industry will exceed all other building activities combined.

Despite the difficulties to which I have referred, the local authorities concerned with housing are gradually improving on their efforts during the acute war period conditions. At the 31st March last, over 2,212 houses were in course of erection for them, while tenders had been invited or accepted for a further 1,278 houses. It will be seen, therefore, that, a short while ago, the rate of building was approximating to the level at which it was in the year before the war, though I should say here that the continued shortage of fuel may make it difficult for a time to maintain this trend.

The scarcity of labour and materials has, naturally, been reflected during the year in greatly increased building costs. Because of this, it was necessary to take extraordinary steps to allay any anxiety on the part of local authorities that their housing programmes would impose too great a financial burden on their districts. With this object in view, the Minister for Finance, by the Finance Act of last year, set up the Transition Development Fund. Local authorities are now familiar with the conditions on which capital grants will be made from the fund to assist them in carrying out their housing schemes. These conditions are far from onerous and have been regarded, generally, as acceptable. Grants amounting to over £56,000 have already been paid to five local authorities in respect of 233 houses. This payment represents an average of £242 per house. It is, of course, anticipated that, in the coming year, the amount of the total grants to be made will very considerably exceed the figure which I have mentioned.

In further relief of the local housing finances and to encourage public works generally, the rate of interest on loans from the Local Loans Fund was reduced during the year from 4 per cent. to 2i per cent. In addition, it is proposed, in a Housing Bill, which will be submitted to the Oireachtas at an early date, to provide that the payment of State subsidies towards housing charges be continued over a period of 50 years, instead of 35 years, as at present. During the year, an Order was made fixing the rate of interest at 3 per cent. for loans issued to borrowers under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts. The previous general rate of interest for such loans was 4¾ per cent.

I regret that I can give no indication at this stage as to what financial assistance towards housing by private persons and public utility societies will be necessary when supplies of skilled labour and materials become freely available. In the meantime, it is proposed that the housing grants payable to private persons and public utility societies should be continued on the present basis up to the 31st March, 1948.

Though, as I have said, we are slowly recovering from the war-time paralysis so far as local authority building is concerned, the difficulties which still operate to impede the realisation of our programme remain most formidable. In rural areas, in particular, it is difficult to obtain sufficient tenders at reasonable prices for housing schemes. The position in urban areas is somewhat, better and, provided satisfactory contracts can be made and the supply position permits, schemes for the erection of about 2,500 houses will commence before next September.

When introducing my Estimate for the Department of Local Government and Public Health in June, 1944, I informed the Dáil that a survey of housing for the whole country was being undertaken. I am glad to say that this has now been completed. It was, of course, made directly by the officers of the housing authorities in each area. Their investigations have disclosed that, in the whole country, about 61,000 new dwellings are needed to provide for the proper housing of our working people.

Perhaps we might consider the significance of that figure. In the whole country there are at the moment about 670,000 houses, and these represent the accumulated building efforts of generations. To provide 61,000 modern dwellings in a reasonable period of time and at prices which will enable them to be occupied on terms which will be within the means of the workers will be a gigantic undertaking. It will not be accomplished, even in 20 years, unless every interest concerned, worker, master-builder, and the local authorities realise the urgency of the problem and its tremendous social importance. If they do realise it, I am sure they will resist the temptation to exploit in their own sectional interest this crying need of so many of our people; that we shall have reasonable tenders from contractors, a satisfactory output from building operatives, and a ready disposition on the part of the local authorities to accept a fair share of the cost of providing the necessary houses. Sometimes even that last-mentioned has not been easily discernible.

Of the 61,000 houses, 16,323 will be required in rural areas. Dublin County Borough will want 23,346, or approximately 38 per cent. of the total, while the estimated requirements of the four county boroughs and the borough of Dún Laoghaire amount to 31,168, or over 50 per cent. of the whole. In the remaining urban areas housing needs are greatest, with one exception, in towns with a population of over 10,000; in such towns the needs range from 878 to 418 houses.

In Dublin City 1,610 dwellings were in progress on the 31st March last. The construction of over 1,000 house foundations was also under way and a tender-tor a further 169 houses has been received by the corporation. The work on foundations has been undertaken at the instance of the Government for the purpose of affording employment to unemployed ex-servicemen, and an appropriate clause has been embodied in the relevant contract documents to ensure that a preference will be given to these men. In addition to the foregoing schemes it is hoped that tenders will shortly be invited for the erection of 652 dwellings.

Reconditioning of tenement houses in the City of Dublin is proceeding satisfactorily and on the 31st March work was in progress on 162 reconditioned flats, while three other similar schemes covering a further 357 flats have been approved. When the last-mentioned schemes have been completed, we shall have provided almost 1,000 modern flats out of what, only a few years ago, were filthy tenements, and we shall have saved at least the shell of what were once the most dignified residences in Dublin and are still the most characteristic examples of our native domestic architecture. I would commend this Dublin achievement to the notice of other housing authorities who may have within their areas similar noble buildings that have degenerated in use as most of Georgian Dublin has. I have seen such buildings in Limerick, a few perhaps in Waterford. I cannot say that I have noticed them in Cork. Wherever they are to be found they are beautiful in their proportions, in their fenestration, in their simple dignity. If they can be saved by reconstructing them, so as to make in each of them comfortable homes for four or five families, as has been done with those in Dublin, it would be worth giving a good deal of thought and spending even generously to do so.

In County Dublin a Compulsory Purchase Order for the acquisition of 998 sites was confirmed during the year. Plans have been approved for about 500 cottages. In Cork County Borough, where 3,671 new houses are needed, 90 houses were completed in the 12 months ended 31st March last, and at that date 89 houses were in progress. Land has been acquired and plans are almost ready for a further 312 houses, and the corporation also owns land, which is at present let in allotments, capable of accommodating a further 1,800 houses.

The housing needs of Limerick City have been estimated at a little over 2,000 dwellings. On the 31st March of this year, 142 houses were in progress and land has been acquired and plans are well advanced for an additional 12 houses. Negotiations have been almost completed for the acquisition of a site to accommodate a farther 170 houses.

In Waterford City, where about 987 houses are wanted, a tender for the erection of 42 houses has been sanctioned. A site has been, acquired and plans approved for a further 201 houses and further sites to accommodate 500 houses have been acquired. I think, in fairness to Waterford, I should say that despite the fact that it is one of the smallest of our county boroughs, Waterford seems to be tackling its housing problem earnestly and energetically.

In connection with the problem of housing generally, I should like to stress the view that closer consideration should be given by local authorities to the exercise, of then-powers under Section 19 of the Housing Act, 1931. That section enables them to take action in the case of dilapidated houses in private ownership, if at reasonable cost such houses can be made fit for occupation by working-class families. Under it the owner or person having control of such a house can be required by the local authority to repair it. Should he fail to comply with the repair notice, the local authority itself may carry out the work at his expense. Every house thus made fit reduces correspondingly the demand for new local authority houses. It is, therefore, of first importance that local authorities should use all their powers to ensure that working-class houses in private ownership are not allowed to become altogether incapable of repair. This is particularly the case at the present time, when housing accommodation is at such a premium and when so many families are in dire need of it. Surveys of houses capable of being made fit have been made or are nearing completion in most local authority areas. Those concerned should consider the information elicited by these surveys in regard to houses in their areas and without undue delay should take the necessary action accordingly.

The proposed Housing Bill will include a provision for the continuance of grants to private persons and public utility societies for a further 12 months. During the 12 months ended 31st March last 456 houses were erected by private persons and public utility societies with the aid of grants from the Department, and in the same period the number of houses reconstructed with the aid of grants was 690. In the previous 12 months the number of new houses erected was 286 and the number of houses reconstructed was 330; so that there has been an increase of about 86 per cent. in building under this head. At the 31st March last, 1,394 houses, towards the erection of which grants had been allocated. Were being erected for private interests, and at the same date about 1,932 houses, in respect of which grants had been allocated, were in process of reconstruction. These figures reflect the great increase in house-building activities to which I have already referred.

Will the grants be at the present level?

At the present level, yes. The Dáil will remember that the Housing Act of last year contained a provision for which my former Parliamentary Secretary, Dr. Ward, was responsible, which I am sure will be of great value in the treatment and prevention of pulmonary tuberculosis. Local authorities, by the Act, are empowered in certain circumstances to make grants for the provision of an extra room, hut or chalet, attached to or in the curtilage of the dwellings of poisons suffering from the disease. The grants in question are given on the certificate of the county medical officer of health or medical superintendent officer of health of the area in which the affected person resides. This certificate must affirm that the person concerned is suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis, that he is undergoing treatment for the disease and that the existing accommodation of his dwelling is inadequate for his proper treatment or for his segregation from the other members of the household. The appropriate architectural or engineering officer of the council has also to certify that the premises in question are suitable for extension in the manner desired. By the Act the State is empowered to recoup the local authority to the extent of two-thirds of the grant or £100, whichever is the lesser.

County councils and county borough councils are the authorities for the purpose of formulating schemes for the provision of this special accommodation. These number 31 and schemes have been received from 25 of them. The 25 schemes involve, according to local estimates, the construction of 1,769 extra rooms, huts or chalets. The average all in cost per case is estimated at £130.

The extent of the housing need calls, as I have emphasised already, for a building output on the part of local authorities on a scale surpassing anything hitherto achieved. I have mentioned the measures taken to remove, so far as we can do so, the financial obstacles, and I would now like to emphasise the necessity for maintaining a high standard as regards planning and construction. The urgent need for new houses should not blind us to the desirability of securing greater variety of house design. When considerations of economy are paramount it is difficult, admittedly, to resist the tendency towards uniformity and monotone, but a certain diversity, both internally and externally, need not involve any appreciable extra cost. Even where there is a repetition of the same type of house, the monotonous pattern is often due to lack of imagination in the layout. The layout should be adapted to the contours of the site. If this is done the natural diversities between sites will safeguard us from monotony. Local authorities must keep in mind that housing schemes carried out now will remain a feature of our towns and countryside for many years and remember that on good or bad planning will depend whether new housing estates will add to or detract from the beauty of the landscape.

I should like also to stress the important fact that, in the selection of the sites for labourers' cottages, it is desirable that greater effort should be made to group cottages within suitable areas, in order to enhance the amenities of rural life. Groups of cottages should be situated so that full advantage may be taken of existing or proposed facilities for piped water supply, electricity supply, and also to enable the tenants to benefit from proximity to church, school and shopping centres. Undoubtedly it will always be necessary to build isolated cottages to meet special local circumstances, but the general idea should be to avoid this where possible.

The Estimate before the Dáil include a provision of £4,000 for the holding of architectural competitions, so that local authorities may be encouraged to give greater consideration to the planning of their houses and the lay-out of their building schemes. The intention is that three competitions should be promoted, one by each of three local authorities. The first competition will be for an urban scheme with piped water and sewerage services, the second will be for a village scheme on a site where these facilities are not yet available, and the third competition will be for rural cottages. It is hoped that with the co-operation of the professional bodies concerned the competitions will stimulate the interest of the engineering and architectural professions in local housing problems. We trust that this interest will result in the emergence of an Irish school of domestic architecture, which will become characteristic of our country and which will give the mass of our people sound, tasteful and well-planned dwellings.

Deputies are aware that under the general supervision of the Department there is a scheme whereby allotments at nominal rents are provided by urban local authorities for persons who are unemployed, or who are in receipt of public assistance, or who, though employed, are regarded as being without a reasonable prospect of continuing in employment for six months and whose income, if they resided during the preceding year in a county borough or in the borough of Dún Laoghaire, did not exceed £66, or if they resided elsewhere £52.

The highest number of these allotments taken up was 21,594 in the year 1941-42. In 1942-43 the number applied for was 17,939; in 1943-44, 16,270; in 1944-45, 14,488; in 1945-46, 12,177. It is estimated that the number that will be asked for and cultivated in the current year will be only about 12,000, hence the decrease in the Estimate from £14,000 to £11,650.

The substantial decrease in the number of allotments taken, from 21,594 in 1941-42 to 12,177 in 1948-46, will no doubt be noted with astonishment; for admittedly, so far as the easy procural of food was concerned, conditions in the latter year were not easier than they were in 1941-42. It is true that the decrease of 9,417 in the number of allotments applied for corresponded very closely to the decrease in the total number on the male unemployment register in urban areas, which fell by 9,080 from 40,882 in July, 1941, to 31,402 in July, 1945. Nevertheless, the striking inconsistency between the figure of 12,177 allotments taken up and the figure of 31,402 for the male unemployment register in urban areas demands, I think, some further comment.

As a beginning I should point out that the rent chargeable for these allotments is usually 1/- per annum for "unemployed" persons. In addition, free seeds and manures are given and the necessary implements are made available also. These plots are intended to be worked for their own advantage by able-bodied men, out of a job and therefore dependent upon the bounty or charity of the community for their subsistence. Those who do work them industriously can obtain generous return for their labour. It is, accordingly, most disquieting to note that the proportion of persons in receipt of unemployment assistance who remain sufficiently industrious to try to feed themselves fell from 53 per cent. in 1941 to 38 per cent. in 1945. When we consider the facilities that this allotment scheme affords for producing essential food by the mere expenditure of labour; when we note that in July, 1945, no less than 31,400 persons were registered officially in urban areas as unemployed but able and willing to work; and, when we advert to the high cost of living then as now, the sharp decrease in the number of allotments taken certainly gives cause for serious reflection. Are we to take it that those 19,000-odd persons who did not seek to obtain allotments, in 1945, were unable to work or were unwilling to work or were, perhaps, not really unemployed at all, but were drawing public money under false pretences f These questions warrant, I think, searching investigation.

The House is aware that the Minister for Local Government is the Minister responsible for the administration of the Town and Regional Planning Acts. The developments in town and regional planning during the year have not been spectacular, but some progress has been made in this exceedingly difficult field. Four local authorities passed resolutions deciding to make planning schemes and another has the matter under consideration. If this authority decides to make a planning scheme, the planning Acts will be operative in 64 of the 89 planning districts. It is to be hoped that the local authorities who have so far hesitated to pass planning resolutions will extend the provisions of the Acts to their districts in the near future. Perhaps I might mention one reason why it is eminently desirable that they should. Admittedly the planned control of building and road development is designed to benefit the community rather than the individual. But it has nevertheless this advantage from the point of view of the individual: it compels the planning authority to consider and decide, first of all, what constructional developments would, in its opinion, be beneficial to the community, and then to make its decisions known to all concerned. The local authority, which adopts the Town and Regional Planning Code, has to prepare its plans, to publish them and to submit them to the criticism of everybody affected by them. As a result of this criticism it formulates its final plan and this becomes binding on it. Everybody knows then what the plans of the local authority are and can make his own plans accordingly. As it is at present, a man may proceed to develop his property at some, perhaps even at great expense to himself, only to find that some of his neighbours or perhaps even the local authority itself, by some contra - development of adjoining property, may nullify everything he has done. Thus in the absence of a formulated plan a man may lose the due return which his initiative and expenditure would otherwise entitle him to.

But the resolution to make a planning scheme is only the preliminary step. No local authority has yet reached the point of completing a planning scheme and submitting it to me for approval. Preliminary reports and sketch development plans have been outlined, but until a draft planning scheme has been prepared a planning authority cannot be said to have achieved a plan for its area. Even though a sketch plan admittedly provides a useful background against which proposals for development can be judged — and is, therefore, better than no attempt to plan at all — it would be very much better for everybody concerned if planning schemes were completed as soon practicable. For that reason we have been urging local authorities to expedite the fulfilment of their intentions in this connection.

As a result of the extension of the area under planning control and the, intensification of building operations there has been a remarkable increase in the number of appeals submitted to me against interim decisions of planning authorities. In the first 12 years after the passing of the Town and Regional Planning Act of 1934 there was an average of about 20 appeals a year. In the last nine months there have been 100 appeals and as the volume of building increases no doubt the number of appeals will increase proportionately. Under the law as it stands the Minister has to bring his personal consideration to bear on each appeal, and thereby a very onerous and exacting duty is imposed on him. I have been giving some thought to this matter and as a result feel that in time, with the growth and development of community planning, some other tribunal will have to be devised to deal with appeals if they are to be dealt with equitably and expeditiously. Lest these last remarks should be misunderstood, I should emphasise that the planning authorities are, speaking generally, exercising their powers with discretion, so that in no less than 70 per cent. of the valid appeals received it has been found possible to confirm the local authority's decision or reach a settlement acceptable to both parties.

Power was given by the Act of 1934 for adjoining authorities to form planning regions. There is an obvious advantage in having a regional plan covering the several areas administered by such local authorities. Under it each local authority maintains its freedom to prepare district schemes dealing in greater detail with matters of local concern though, of course, it must harmonise its district scheme as a whole with the regional scheme. I have asked the Dublin Corporation to give early consideration to the exercise of their powers as regional planning authority for the region comprising Dublin City and County and the adjoining counties of Meath, Kildare and Wicklow.

I now turn to what is probably the oldest service administered by local authorities; that is the maintenance of roads. Our roads during the last seven years have deteriorated considerably owing to the inability of county councils to obtain the necessary materials for carrying out normal maintenance by surface dressing. In order to restore surfaces as quickly as possible it was decided last year, not only to offer grants to county councils on a more generous scale than before, but for the first time to make grants available from the Road Fund for the maintenance of county roads. The grants, as Deputies will no doubt recall, were given on an ascending scale: the more that was done over the average, as represented by the expenditure over the preceding five years, the higher would be the proportion of the expenditure met. That scheme has been continued this year, with the same scale of grants as was authorised for last year. I am glad to say that it seems to have been effective, and that county councils generally have realised the importance of restoring our roads to their normal condition, and have made increased provision under that head for that work in their estimates for this year.

Unfortunately, the bad weather in the early months of this year gave a double set-back to our road restoration programme. Frost, and snow caused very considerable damage to surfaces, which, owing to the lack of regular surface dressing during the war years, had become porous, and these surfaces once broken up became holed by heavy traffic. Moreover, the problem of restoring our roads has been aggravated, not only by a shortage of essential materials and the stress of weather, but by an acute shortage of labour in rural areas. The lateness of the tillage season made it necessary to divert to tillage labour which might have been employed on roads. With this objective, county councils were asked to release for employment by farmers such of their men as might be required by them. In the turf-cutting areas we have had to go even further, and since the 1st of May, have had to allow turf-production to take priority over our road-restoration programme.

Every effort has been made to make up for the shortage of labour by the purchase of new road machinery. Immediately after the war a survey was made of the equipment required by local authorities either to replace depleted stocks or to supplement their existing plant. The procedure for obtaining new equipment was expedited by seeking tenders through Department from manufacturers normally supplied this country. These tenders were circulated to local authorities, who were advised to secure all road-making materials or plant on offer as quickly as possible. As might be expected in existing circumstances, orders were placed far in excess of the amount of equipment available, so that the needs of local authorities in most types of road-making equipment have not yet been filled. The Departmental, however, has been in touch with representatives of continental and American firms with a view to making good the deficiency; and I am glad to say that there has been an improvement in the machinery position generally.

The efficiency with which road work is done and the extent to which new methods are applied depend primarily on the keenness and ability of county surveyors and their assistants. In order that the technical staffs responsible tor road maintenance may be able without difficulty to keep abreast of the most modern developments we have arranged courses of lectures on road construction for surveyors. These were given in Dublin last month and over 100 engineers to local authorities were enabled to attend them.

It would be, perhaps, relevant in this connection to stress the fact that roads have now become so important an element in our whole economic and productive organisation that responsibility for making and maintaining them can only be entrusted to first-class men. Naturally, such men will not be attracted to the service of local authorities unless the conditions generally, and particularly their remuneration, are commensurate with their personal ability, capacity and professional qualifications. If local authorities want service of the highest technical efficiency — which in the long run is the most economical service — they must be prepared to pay for it, and many authorities, I am glad to say, now realise this. The whole question of the remuneration of county engineering staffs is a matter which has been engaging my attention for some time in conjunction with similar and cognate questions which though they must be decided simultaneously require separate study.

As I need not indeed tell Deputies, modern traffic developments have posed new problems in regard to road improvement. In the early years of road planning in this country, the immediate problem was to meet the conditions set up on the then existing roads by fast-moving vehicles; so that it might be said that the primary aim of road-builders was to provide dust-free surfaces on the roads. It might also be said that, with the aid of grants from the Road Fund, they were reasonably successful in accomplishing it. But in this, as in other countries, with the development of the self-propelled vehicle, the speed and weight of traffic made it necessary to devote more attention to the proper alignment of roads, in order to ensure the safety, not only of those who travel in motor-vehicles, but of all road users. And the need for this has become greater and more urgent with the passage of time. Road alignments and easements of bends designed and constructed in the twenties and thirties of the century have now to be redesigned and reconstructed to meet the much more exacting requirements of modern traffic. It has, therefore, become imperative for the Department, which has general responsibility for our roads and administers the fund out of which so large a part of the cost of these roads is now met, to lay down standards for the proper alignment and design of roads generally. These standards for the classification and layout of roads have been printed and issued to the engineers of local authorities. They embody the principles that in future are to be followed in the design and construction of our roads.

In formulating the new road standards an attempt has been made on the basis of the data available to classify roads according to the expected traffic density of the future. As a result it is estimated that about 4,400 miles of roads will have to be very greatly improved within the next 25 years. It is intended to take a new traffic census as soon as possible in order to check this estimate, and further checks will be made by further traffic censuses which will be taken at intervals. The information thus obtained will be used as a basis for a scientific reclassification of our roads.

Many Deputies who are members of local authorities will be aware, no doubt, that local authorities have been asked to carry out surveys of certain of their main roads and for this purpose to appoint temporary engineers. About the purpose of this road survey, however, there would seem to be in certain quarters some misunderstanding which perhaps I should endeavour to clear up. In the first place, I should like to emphasise that the road standards laid down by the Department are not to be confused with a road construction programme. Accordingly, it must not be inferred that the projected roads are to be constructed now, or even laid out to the traffic requirements of some time in the remote future. Most of the criticisms of the proposed road survey which I have read would seem to be permeated by this error. The main purpose of the survey is a practical and economical one; it is to ascertain the land and rights of way required for the development of the roads in the era we are now entering, and, where practicable, to secure these. I think it will be admitted that it is very desirable, to do this in order to let the owners of the properties concerned know in good time what the plans of the road authorities are, so that they will not undertake any construction works which might not only impede the proper development of our road system, but might ultimately have to be demolished. It is also advisable to make this road survey so as to ensure that over a reasonable period the lands which the road-building authorities are likely to require will be reserved for their use. In making the road survey now, we are in fact taking the normal prudent precaution of looking ahead.

The rate of progress in making the new roads or improving existing roads will depend, of course, on many factors such as finance, machinery and labour. Furthermore, practical difficulties will prevent anything approaching the construction, mile by mile, of a continuous newly-defined road; and therefore the works will be executed in stages. In certain cases at the beginning it may even be necessary to carry out the improvements on isolated stretches of road. But in every case the standards laid down will be worked to, and thus we shall secure that, wherever the work is done, it will integrate harmoniously into the whole road when that is ultimately completed.

In carrying out our programme it is proposed to concentrate in the first place on roads which are likely to have high traffic density. There are about 3,000 miles of such roads. It is hoped that the survey which is now being carried out will enable an estimate to be made of the cost of reconstructing this 3,000 miles of roads to the standards which will be required in the future. I should like in this connection to stress this: the survey does not commit the local authority to any expenditure on road construction which is not proved to be essential for their traffic requirements. The standards laid down by the Department do not envisage an elaborate system of roads. But they do envisage roads which will be adequate to ensure the safe and speedy movement of people and merchandise upon them. Time, it has been said, is money, and the more time we can save in getting our primary products safely to their appropriate markets and the easier we make it for our producers to get them there, the greater will be the economic return, not only to the producers of these commodities, but to the community as a whole.

Farmer Deputies have often intervened in this debate as if the road engineer were the natural enemy of the farmer. There is no section of the community so closely interested in the proper development of our roads system as our farmers. For the better our transport services are, the bigger the farmers' market will be. In planning our new roads the needs of the farming community will be given the closest consideration and every endeavour will be made to meet their reasonable requirements. I know, after six years' experience as Minister for Local Government, that farmers are particularly concerned to ensure that whatever roads are constructed they will be made as safe as possible for animal traffic. That is a perfectly reasonable attitude in face of a problem which is of national importance, because we are all concerned in the safety and well-being of these animals. Indeed the experience of the past winter must have brought home to us all that the losses of individual farmers are reflected in an increase in the cost of food.

Therefore, let me assure farmer Deputies that townspeople and people who ride in motor cars are just as concorned to ensure that animals can use the roads safely as the owners of these animals may be.

The problem of making the roads safe for animal traffic is one that has long engaged the attention of my Department. I must confess it is a problem for which, so far, we have not been able to find a solution which whatever we may say, farmers will admit to be satisfactory. I have decided to have the matter thoroughly-investigated and for that purpose have set up a committee representative of engineers, farmers and other road users with the following terms of refer ence:—

To inquire into and report on the following matters:—

(1) the extent to which present methods of road surfacing are a contributary cause of accidents to animals or animal-drawn traffic;

(2) the possibility of preventing or reducing accidents by the adoption of various methods of surfacing and particularly the desirability of providing specially treated margins on roads in rural areas;

(3) the measures which owners of animals and animal-drawn traffic can themselves adopt to reduce or prevent accidents with particular reference to the shoeing of horses;

(4) the changes, if any, to be made in existing practice or legislation whether relating to the treatment of roads or the treatment of animals or their management on the public roads.

I hope that as a result of the labours of this committee we may be able to find a solution for the problem. Whether we shall or not, of course, I am not sufficient of a prophet to be able to say.

Naturally the fulfilment of our road programme will depend in great measure on the moneys available to finance it. I am glad to say that with the return of private cars to the roads and the increase in commercial vehicles, the revenues of the Road Fund have expanded considerably; but it will all be required if we are to complete our road-restoration programme and to undertake the considerable scheme of road improvement and development which we have envisaged. Last year the income to the fund was about £500,000 over that of the preceding year and was higher than the highest point reached in the pre-war years. This was due mainly to the increased number of commercial goods vehicles using the roads. Farmers, perhaps, will be glad to know that it was because of this increased income to the fund that we were able to make some grants for the maintenance of county roads. In August, 1939, the number of commercial vehicles under current licence was 10,741 as compared with 14,716 last August. There is no reason to think that the income of the Road Fund for the current year will be less than last year.

Though the matter is not strictly or mainly within the province of the Department of Local Government, the problems of road safety and the measures which should be taken to promote it have been under active consideration in the Department for some time. The improvement of the roads to which I have referred will in due course make the roads safer for road users. The strict enforcement of the law also promotes road safety, in recent years the Gardaí have been given power to test brakes and steering gear and, if they find these defective, to prohibit the use of the vehicle under test until the defect is remedied. This power also applies to pedal bicycles.

But good roads and simple enforcement of the law are not enough. We have reached the conclusion that the education of road users as to the dangers and accidents which arise from careless use of the roads is likely to be particularly helpful. I should mention that my Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Childers, has given this matter much personal attention. Deputies who visited the Spring Show will, no doubt, have noted the road safety exhibit there. It seemed to be one of the most popular indoor attractions at the function. Two films on road safety are at present being shown in cinemas, and arrangements have also been made for a mobile film unit which will show cautionary films in schools. Such films, in fact, have already been shown in Dublin schools and it is intended to extend the operation of the unit to schools in other areas later. A road safety booklet with numerous illustrations of common road accidents and simple rules and hints for safe driving is in preparation and will be issued to all drivers of motor vehicles. A representative Road Safety Consultative Committee has also been set up which will consider proposals and suggestions for further road safety measures. In this way we hope to make all classes of road users aware of their responsibilities and thereby reduce the toll of life and limb which careless drivers now exact from the users of our roads.

During the financial year just ended, much progress was made by local authorities in the formulation of water supply and sewerage schemes which had been deferred during the world war. The improved position in regard to materials enabled work to begin on a number of schemes which had been planned many years ago but which, because of the shortage of supplies, had been held up until now. We were also able to undertake part of the comprehensive programme of post-war works, the planning of which had been proceeded with during the war period.

As Deputies will admit, the Government, by initiating a vast scheme to make the amenities and advantages of an electricity supply available to the majority of our rural dwellings, has indicated in a very practical way how greatly it is concerned for the comfort and well-being of our rural people and, of course, for their economic advancement as well. But electricity is only one service which has not been available liitheito to the ordinary countryman. There others equally desirable which he has had likewise to forgo. And perhaps first among these from the point of view of health and comfort is an ample, convenient and assured domestic water supply. Admittedly it is not possible in the nature of things to afford such a supply for every dwelling in the country; and it has been argued that to give it even to the majority of them would not only present technical problems of very great difficulty, but would be prohibitive in cost. The Government, however, has decided to have the question thoroughly investigated by a committee of experts, whose services I am now seeking and who will be asked to inquire into the feasibility of constructing water supply systems to provide adequate and satisfactory supplies of water for domestic purposes in those areas in which piped water supplies are at present lacking. Of course, an investigation of this sort will take some time because the technical problems involved are very great; and equally great, perhaps, is the difficulty of securing the services of competent people to investigate these problems. At any rate, when the investigation has been completed, we shall know where we stand and we will, I hope, be able to give effect to the general desire of the Government to provide not only electricity for our country people but a satisfactory and convenient water supply as well.

The total number of sanitary service schemes initiated during the year was 39. Of these, 14 were water schemes and were sewerage schemes. The estimated cost of these schemes is about £280,000. Grants amounting to £94,000 were made available as contributions to this expenditure.

In August last, the Minister for Finance agreed to make grants from the Transition Development Fund to local authorities for public health works. These grants are intended to act as an inducement to local authorities to put forward schemes which would not normally be undertaken owing to the excessive cost. Where the proposed schemes are approved, the grants will be assessed on the basis of the cost per dwelling of the area served by them. Where the cost of the scheme exceeds £55 per dwelling a grant of 50 per cent. of the excess arising will be payable subject to a maximum contribution of £60 per dwelling. Naturally these grants will not be available for schemes which I have found myself unable to approve.

Bearing in mind the importance of deriving the greatest practicable proportion of our supplies of fertiliser for agricultural purposes from domestic sources, the Government have decided that the possibility of converting town sewage by bacterial treatment into a useful fertiliser should be examined and reported upon by an expert committee. Deputies, no doubt, know that on the Continent and in Great Britain sewage disposal plants, designed for this purpose, have been installed in some places, and I believe successfully operated. We propose to have such plants and their working closely studied by a committee of scientists and engineers, and reported upon. If the report is in general favourable, it may bring about revolutionary changes in the methods at present in vogue here for the treatment and disposal of sewage from our large centres of population. The terms of reference of the committee are: —

"To consider and report on the methods of Sewage disposal with reference to the recovery of sewage sludge and its treatment for agricultural purposes and to report also on the financial and technical problems involved (i) in constructing future sewerage schemes adapted to this purpose; (ii) in adapting likewise the systems of sewage disposal already in operation here."

A number of gentlemen have already accepted invitations to act on the committee and I hope to announce the full membership within the next week or two.

In addition to public health schemes, grants of about £40,000 were also allocated from the Employment and Emergency Schemes Vote towards the cost of amenity schemes undertaken by local authorities. The schemes carried out included the provision of playgrounds, public parks, handball alleys, promenades, improvement works at fair greens, and the clearance of derelict sites. Amenity schemes, generally, are undertaken primarily to provide employment, and grants up to 90 per cent. of the cose of the works are made available to local authorities.

There was an increase of £163,105 in borrowing for sanitary and other works, excluding housing. The total amount of loans sanctioned was £424,293, which approaches the total for the last pre-war year. The borrowing was principally from the Local Loans Fund and by means of stock issues.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

Deputies will remember that during 1940 the law relating to fire brigades was consolidated and amended and sanitary authorities were required to make provision for extinguishing fires in their districts. The Act has been instrumental in effecting some improvement in fire-fighting arrangements; but the position is not yet satisfactory, because of the reluctance of some authorities to avail of their powers, and the peculiar difficulties connected with the organisation and maintenance of fire-fighting services in small towns and rural areas. The information which was elicited during the organisation and training of the A.R.P. services in the years which followed the outbreak of the World War indicated that our local fire-fighting services were in general sadly deficient.

Accordingly, in February, 1943, a committee was formed to investigate the question of instituting a general scheme for fire-fighting and for the protection and rescue of persons and properly from injury caused by fire. This was a problem which had never been investigated exhaustively here, and the committee have had a laborious task. The main part of their work, however, is now completed and an advisory technical committee has been set up to draft standards for a fire survey of institutions. It will be part of the work of this committee to prepare regulations in regard to fire precautions, fire drills and other measures directed to reducing the fire hazard to the minimum and to the saving of life and property in the case of an outbreak of fire in institutions.

Deputies will have observed, no doubt, from the Estimates that this year under the inspectorial staff provision is included for the first time for a fire adviser. We hope to get an experienced officer with engineering qualifications who, besides being adviser to the Minister, will act as an inspector of the fire brigades throughout the country. He will, for instance, ascertain whether the minimum personnel and equipment is maintained in local brigades to enable them to carry out their duties. He will be able, I hope, by advice and assistance to help the brigades in their organisation and to promote the establishment of rescue and first-aid parties in the smaller towns and villages.

Among the other measures which are being put into effect to raise the standard of our fire-fighting organisations to a reasonable level are arrangements for reinforcing local fire brigades when severe fires occur in their district. With this in view the terms of working agreements between adjoining authorities which will be essential for this purpose are under consideration. We are also impressing on the local authorities the necessity for establishing efficient fire call systems so that brigades will turn out promptly on the alarm being given. The need to give fire brigades easy access to sources of water where water-supply systems do not exist, as well as the need to provide better training facilities for fire brigade officers, have also been noted for early action.

In the meantime, in order to make good notable deficiencies in the equipment of our existing fire-fighting units. our A.R.P. fire-fighting appliances have been made available on indefinite loan, free of charge, to local authorities who applied for them. With very few exceptions it was possible to meet all such applications The number of appliances distributed in this way was 165, made up of 18 self-propelled units, 26 large trailer pumps and 121 light trailer pumps. Under the distribution, every county and county borough with the exception of Dublin Corporation received at least two appliances, in addition to those already purchased by them, but in the majority of cases the number was in excess of this figure.

I should now like to say a word about turf, which, to use a well-worn pun, has become such a burning question. As the Dáil, no doubt, knows, the county council producers furnish by far the most important contribution to the domestic turf requirements of the non-turf areas. Since 1941 they have produced close on 3,000,000 tons of turf. Crops from the seasons 1941 to 1945 have been finally disposed of. The 1946 crop amounted to about 430,000 tons, of which about 340,000 tons had been sold up to the 31st March last, the balance of about 90,000 tons — most of it unsaleable — being still on hands at that date. The year was a very unfavourable one for the saving of turf and about four-fifths of the balance of last year's cutting still on hands will require considerable rehandling, before it can be brought to a suitable condition for transport.

Deputies may desire some information as to the financial effects of the large scale operations engaged in by the turf-producing county councils. Up to the end of 1946 over £6,500,000 had been expended by county councils on turf production for sale. Of this sum something over £6,000,000 had been recouped by the various purchasers. The difference of more than £500,000 represents the value of turf on hands, and amounts due by various debtors, including Fuel Importers, pending final certification of costs. The account, however, is a self-liquidating one, and I want to emphasise that the local authorities will be at no loss, so far as turf produced for Fuel Importers is concerned.

As a result of the grants allocated in, previous years the greater number of the bogs acquired by county councils have reached a reasonable state of development and further works will be mainly of a maintenance nature. In the case of bogs utilised by county councils for their direct-labour production schemes it is intended that expenditure on any works required should he charged to the turf production accounts generally and recouped in due course on the sale of turf. Hence it will no longer be necessary to provide specifically by grants from the Exchequer for these works. Accordingly a considerable reduction in the amounts formerly provided under sub-head K of the Vote has become possible. In certain counties, however, bogs have been acquired by county councils and let entirely to private producers. In order to encourage private production and to provide for the necessary drainage and road works on such bogs, grants on a limited scale will be provided from the £12,500 which appears under sub-head K of the Estimate.

This year county councils are beings asked to help in coping with a fuel situation which is more serious than in any previous year. The quantity required for Fuel Importers Limited, from the 1946 crops was approximately 350,000 tons. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has indicated that county councils will be required to provide approximately 600,000 tons for Fuel Importers Limited, from the 1947 crop. To provide this quantity, together with the quantities which will be required for the councils' own use and for local needs in certain areas, the road engineering staffs of the local authorities and their men will be required to produce almost 700,000 tons —a truly herculean task.

The abnormally bad weather of the early spring denied us the advantage of an early start on turf-cutting operations. Moreover, the position has also been acutely aggravated by the lateness of the agricultural season generally, the undiminished need for home-produced cereals and roots, and the marked deficiency in the labour force available to meet at one and the same time the demands of agriculture, turf production and the local authorities. As I have already stated, we endeavoured to meet that situation by recommending local authorities to release their manual workers to assist first in the early tillage work on the farms and then, in the turf-producing counties, to divert to turf production the labour hitherto available for road works, so far as that can be done. Our suggestion, indeed, has been that so far as men who would normally be employed on roads and similar works by the local authorities are concerned they should be made available up to the 1st May to such farmers as may require them; after that date an absolute priority has been given to turf production.

With regard to the turf situation for this year I cannot speak gravely enough. We have been most unfortunate in regard to every factor that would hamper our county council staffs in attaining their designated target. I know that the county engineers, their assistants, their foremen, their gangers and their men are doing everything humanly possible to fulfil their allotted task. Indeed they can do no less; for a full 1,000,000 of their fellow-citizens are looking to them as never before to provide what will save hundreds of thousands of families from cold and hardship during the next winter. We want superhuman efforts from them; we want, perhaps, almost miracles. I know that if any men on earth can do what our turf-producers have been asked to do, that these, our own countrymen, will do it. But we must not leave the whole burden to the county councils. Whoever is in a position to cut turf for himself should go out and do it, do it even now at what is almost the eleventh hour. Those who are accustomed to cut turf for their own use, and who never sold a sod, should go out and cut. for sale as many tons of turf as time and the other demands upon them will permit. Those who have cut turf in the past for sale should strive to double their output. It will be easily sold and it will all be needed. This year no one can cut too much turf; for we must make ourselves, in the highest degree possible, independent of imported fuel.

It is not too much to say, and I want to emphasise the deliberation with which I commit myself to the statement, that so far as next winter's fuel is concerned are facing as grave a situation as any that confronted us when active war was being waged around us. If we do not succeed in obtaining the 900,000 tons of turf which will be necessary to meet the bare minimum of our requirements, hundreds of thousands of our people will suffer definite hardship. Rich and poor will share that hardship. It will fall most heavily, however, upon our industrious workers and wage-earners, the tradesmen, the labourers, the clerical and distributive workers who, because they are in regular employment, are not eligible to participate in the special fuel schemes which the Government has been able to institute for the relief of the poorer sections of the community. But indeed even the very poorest among us will be further afflicted if, by reason of a failure to obtain the essential output from the bogs which are worked by Bord na Móna, the general rations for industrial and domestic users have to be reduced. And this will likewise be the case if the production of the high quality turf, which is specially reserved for the poor, is curtailed by fomented disaffection among the workers. These are facts, facts which are known to us all.

In this serious situation it is surely deplorable that any organisation should set itself deliberately to sabotage the efforts of the Government to provide fuel for the people. I have in mind certain articles which have been appearing in the "official organ of the Labour Party"— Deputy Norton's labour party, of course. Those articles are designed to foment discontent among turf-workers generally. They allege that:—

"Conditions amounting almost to slavery make a scandal of fuel production in this country. Men are taken from their homes, herded into camps, far from their families, and paid a miserable wage — not enough to keep a single man, far less a married one."

They continue with the exhortation:—

"All bog workers should Join the Federation of Rural Workers. This is their only chance."

Next winter the people of this country may be suffering from the most acute fuel crisis they have ever experienced. Yet this is the sort of propaganda that is being dished out on behalf of a political Party in this country. If this sort of thing goes on it may well bring turf production not only in Kildare but elsewhere to an end. If that happens, the poor in our cities and towns, and the workers in them and, indeed, the vast majority of the people in them will be cold and miserable next winter. And for that Mr. Norton and his Party will have to carry responsibility.

Deputy Norton and his Party will have to carry responsibility. The position as regards the audit of the accounts of local authorities is even more satisfactory than it was at this time last year, and much more satisfactory than it has been -at any time since 1922. The accounts of all local bodies to the 31st March, 1945, have now been audited with four exceptions, and in these four cases the audit up to the 31st March, 1946, is proceeding. At the end of 1946 there were 71 audits outstanding in respect of periods ending 31st March, 1945. The corresponding number for 1946 is 45.

The county councils' rate collection in the financial year ended 31st March last has, on the whole, been satisfactory. A few counties were able to collect over 99 per cent. of the rates within the financial year and in 17 counties over 95 per cent. of the rates outstanding had been accounted for. In only two counties did the collection within the year fall below 90 per cent. I have little doubt that this generally satisfactory position would have been even better had the weather not impeded the collection towards the end of the financial year. With the exception of one county, which had a small overdraft on 31st March, all county authorities had credit balances on their revenue accounts. Deputies, no doubt, will be gratified to note these very significant facts. They indicate that our county councils have been gradually releasing themselves from dependence on their treasurers for the financing of their services in the earlier months of the administrative year. Most of them are approaching the position in which at the end of the financial year they will have sufficient revenues in hand or in sight to carry them over the period which must elapse before the rates for the next year begin to accrue.

No doubt, the increase in the agricultural grant last year by over £1,000,000 was largely responsible for the commendable promptitude with which the general body of ratepayers in the rural areas met their obligations to the local community. Deputies, I think, would like to know what the final figures for the grant were and how it was distributed over the three classes of allowances. The total amount distributed was £2,910,000 or in round figures nearly £3,000,000. Of the grant, £1,827,000 went in primary, allowances to the occupiers of lands under £20 in valuation and to relieve the first £20 of valuation, if that was over £20. Employment allowances took £603,000 and supplementary allowances to the occupiers of lands exceeding £20 in valuation absorbed £470,000 approximately; while £10,000 went, in accordance with the provisions of the Act, to certain urban authorities.

Perhaps, before I conclude, I should mention an aspect of local government finance which may have disturbed the public mind. I refer to the fact that with few exceptions the rates made by local authorities for the current financial year show increases which in some areas are, admittedly, substantial. The main causes of these increase are four. First, many constructional projects which had to be postponed or, at the least, greatly slowed down during the war period are now being taken up again and pursued with even greater vigour, as for example, the construction of houses or of hospitals. Second, the cost, as farmer-ratepayers will appreciate, of food, fuel and clothing has been considerably increased by causes wholly outside the control of the central or local authorities, and this increased cost has been reflected in the additional moneys now required for the upkeep of hospitals, homes and sanatoria. Third, the cost of road-making equipment and road-making materials has gone up very much, while, even at greatly increased costs, heavy arrears of road repair and maintenance have to be made good as a matter of urgency. Fourth, with the repeal of the Standstill Orders, the remuneration of local authority staffs has had to be brought into closer relation to the altered value of money, a need which the local authorities themselves were first to recognise by passing resolutions granting increases that in some cases were even greater than in fairness to the ratepayers I could see my way to sanction.

The same rise in rates, brought about by the same factors, took place after the first world war. Local authorities are in the same position as private individuals, who have to pay more for goods and services than they formerly did. Although the rates have been increased, it can scarcely be said that the increases are excessive when increased costs are considered. Rates in the £, it should be remembered, are calculated on the basis of valuations, most of which were made before the year 1914 — indeed some of them go back 80 years or more, to the time of Sir Richard Griffith, who gave his name to this valuation. By comparison with the prices and rents which it can command to-day, real estate was valued for rating at very low figures indeed. But while the property values have come up, rateable valuations have not. They have been virtually frozen at the figures fixed in Griffith's day. With valuations almost static and costs rising, it is inevitable that the increasing expenses on existing services and the cost of new services will be reflected in a much higher rate in the £ than they would be if the valuations were based on the present net annual value of property.

Years ago I foresaw the position to which we were tending and which we have now virtually reached. It is easy to see that, as valuations become more and more obsolete, they will become increasingly unjust — for it is an injustice to many ratepayers to have valuations that have been made at widely different times and, therefore, relatively incorrect, preserved as the basis of local taxation. The more local expenditure increases the greater the injustice becomes. If the incidence of local taxation is to be so adjusted that each ratepayer will pay his fair share and no one can deny that our aim should be to have local charges distributed over the local population as fairly as possible — then, I say, the problem of valuation cannot be shelved indefinitely.

If the ghost of Sir Richard Griffith were to revisit the scenes of his labours he would find much to astonish him; but I imagine nothing would surprise him more than the survival of many of the valuations he made almost a century ago, notwithstanding the provision that had been made for keeping valuations up to date after they had been originally ascertained. Until this problem is tackled effectyally the present anomalous position will continue and the rates in our principal urban centres and, indeed, in our counties, will be struck at highly inflated figures of 25/-, 30/- or even 34/- in the £, which if they were levied on correct valuations would be substantially lower. I have kept the House much longer than I bad intended to do, but so many new developments are in contemplation, in the Department of Local Government that I thought I should make Deputies aware of the matters we have in mind. I may have failed to touch upon some matters. If I have so failed, I am sure that Deputies, when they come to discuss the Estimate, will remind me of my omission and I shall endeavour, in my reply, to deal with such matters.

I move:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

The biggest problem which comes within the responsibility of the Department of Local Government and one which gives much cause for concern is the provision of houses for those people for whom the local authorities have catered in the past. The Minister mentioned that a survey, which had been made, showed that 60,000 houses were needed. Anybody who has observed the building which is in progress at present, particularly in the cities and towns, cannot but have been struck by the fact that the larger proportion of the houses are being erected by either public utility societies or by private enterprise. It is significant that, while the war has no been over for two years, the vast bulk of the house building which has been undertaken or is in course of preparation is the result of private enterprise. The present position is difficult for people who are in a position to purchase or rent houses, if available, but the big problem and the problem which the Local Government Department must consider is the steps which should be taken, in addition to those already taken, to secure that an adequate number of houses will be provided by the local authorities. In every area in every county, particularly in the urban areas and the county boroughs, the problem has become more acute in the last couple of years. No matter how this problem is approached, it is obvious that a long-term plan, must be adopted.

The Dublin Corporation Housing Report, which reviewed the housing activities of the corporation, expressed the opinion that a ten-year programme should be adopted; that in order effectively to overcome the housing shortage only a long-term programme would solve the difficulty. Despite the fact that a certain amount of work is being undertaken by the Dublin Corporation and the Dublin County Council, there is little indication that any long-term approach is being made to this problem. The last census showed that one-fifth of the population of the country is now concentrated in the Dublin area, which includes the City and County of Dublin and the borough of Dun Laoghaire. The congregation of so many people into that area has acutely increased the difficulties under which the local authorities are already labouring. It has not merely aggravated the position, but also resulted in creating many other difficulties.

Dublin has now spread in so many directions and so widely that land formerly available for the supplying of the Dublin market with milk and vegetables has been utilibod for the building of houses or for the development of sites for houses. That is a problem to which I think the Department has not given sufficient attention. It is partly the responsibility of the local authorities. Not merely does it concern the schemes under the Town and Regional Planning Acts but also the Department of Local Government.

The acute situation which has arisen owing to the rapid enhancement of land values in the Dublin area has resulted in almost all builders being forced to provide only expensive houses. No matter how anxious builders are to secure sites and how actively they investigate the possibilities of new sites, the fact is that land on main roads or by-roads in the Dublin area is now commanding greatly enhanced prices. People who come to reside in these houses when constructed are faced with the problem of transport to the city. There is also the problem of providing suitable shopping areas, schools, churches and many other services. There is, therefore, a responsibility on the Department to see that an all-embracing plan is put into operation. So far, evidence of an all-embracing plan covering the City and County of Dublin is lacking. It is true that some schemes have been considered. But, taking the whole matter in its proper perspective, it is obvious that, unless adequate services are made available, unless water and sewerage services are made available before house-building programmes are undertaken, serious difficulties will ensue when the houses are built.

As I understand it, the Dublin County Council have objected on a number of occasions to proposed plans for individual houses or small building schemes. Some of the people concerned appealed to the Department and, to my surprise, a number of these schemes were upheld. I know that the Minister gave a figure showing that in 70 per cent. of the appeals made to him he affirmed the decision of the local authority. I take it that figure applied to the whole country. But the difficulty that the Dublin County Council have, and which, I understand, is based information supplied to them by the enginfers of the Dublin Corporation, is that if the present rapid extension continues, if the house construction programme, either by public utility societies or by private individuals, continues, the existing sewerage and water services provided by the Dublin Corporation, which in certain places connect with the county council services, will have to be relaid from the centre. As I understand it, a number of the existing services will have to be relaid if any further extension takes place. On almost all the roads leading from the city the house-building programme carried out in the pre-war period decreased the capacity of the services. Certain additions were possible and certain additions are being made. A number of additional schemes have either been completed or are in the course of completion. If it is possible to provide any of the houses already constructed or any of the houses in the course of construction with sewerage and water facilities, then it should be done. But, before any further building takes place, certainly building by individuals, or the building of small groups of houses in comparatively remote areas, areas which are remote from existing shopping centres or from existing sewerage facilities, drastic and determined steps should be taken to see that these services are first provided.

I should like the Minister and the Department to consider not merely the position which will arise from the lack of these services to the houses under construction, but the fact that some areas already availing of existing services will find that the pressure of the water supply will be decreased owing to the increased number of users. That decreased pressure will inevitably mean that people living in a locality for years will find themselves without a water supply. That is a problem which must give rise to serious consideration and it is one which should be considered before any further development takes place.

The fact that the Town and Regional Planning Acts have not been put into operation gives cause for concern in the Dublin area. Some schemes have been adopted, but the evidence is that there is not any all embracing plan which will cover not merely the Dublin Corporation area, but the areas under the two other local authorities, the Dublin County Council and the Dún Laoghaire Borough Council. Dublin City has spread at an alarming rate. The causes may be many, but the responsibility is on the Department of Local Government to see that not merely should the difficulties be minimised, but that, in conjunction with the Department of Industry and Commerce, every effort should be made to decentralise industries in order to lighten the burden on the Dublin area. No matter how extensive the house building programme in the Dublin Corporation area, no matter how the reconditioning proposals are carried out, and no matter how rapidly new houses are erected by private individuals or public utility societies, the fact is that if migration into the Dublin area is maintained at the rate at which it has progressed in the last quarter of a century, the shortage of houses there is likely to continue indefinitely.

It is disappointing to find from the Minister for Finance's Budget statement that he contemplates an increase of only 1,500 houses in the coming year. I gathered there was some difference between that figure and the figure given by the Minister just now. The Minister said there were 1,610 houses in course of erection en the 31st March and work on the foundations of 1,000 more was in course of preparation, or plans had been submitted for work in the near future. It is to be hoped more active steps will be taken to urge, as far as is within the Department's power, local authorities to pursue more vigorously a programme of house reconstruction.

If I appear to be dwelling unduly on the difficulties in Dublin, it is because the problem there is more acute than elsewhere. I suppose Deputies throughout the country have, in their own constituencies, an acute shortage of houses, but I think anyone who has experience of the problem in Dublin City and County will realise that, if anything, it is more acute certainly in the urban areas and in binallcr towns and villages there than in many other parts of the country. For that reason I would like the Minister to indicate the number of houses the local authorities in Dublin City and County propose to build this year. I understand plans have been approved for 500 houses, that a number of sites have already been acquired and that construction work may start in the near future.

It is disappointing to find that, two years after the cessation of hostilities, less than a couple of dozen houses have been erected by the Dublin County Council. I appreciate there are many difficulties, that a number of matters must be considered, that inquiries must be made and that the procedure resulting in the acquisition of sites involves delay, but it is unfortunate that, with the reduced activities of the county councils during the war years in many other respects, a greater effort was not made to expedite the paper work so that actual construction could be undertaken immediately hostilities ended. The officials of the Department are as well aware as any other people in the country of the troubles experienced by builders — the shortage of materials, the enhanced cost and the other difficulties which the war brought about. In any system of priority, local authorities and those who are building houses for people less able to fend for themselves should get first place.

The fact that, in the Dublin area, so many new houses are in course of construction by private individuals and public utility societies prompts one to consider how it is that the local authorities have not been on their toes and have not been able to get under way to the same degree and with the same vigour as those private individuals. It is true to say the majority of those houses are constructed for people in a position to buy them. The problem is one, first of all, of providing sufficient houses for those who must be aided by a substantial State subsidy. Above these classes, which come under the responsibility of the local authorities, there is a large section of the community better off, but who are themselves now unable either to buy houses or raise the money by means of a loan from building societies or loan societies and who, due to the effects of the Rent Restrictions Acts, are unable to procure houses to rent.

It is one of the unfortunate results of the Rent Restrictions Acts which are, of course, necessary, that many landlords when they get vacant possession immediately proceed to sell. Landlords who constructed houses immediately before the war have, on obtaining possession, immediately taken steps to sell. The enhanced value of houses has, no doubt, been largely responsible for this course. The fact that these houses are now commanding double and in many cases treble their pre-war cost, means that this section of the community, commonly referred to as the white-collar workers, are prevented from providing themselves with adequate accommodation, I was disappointed from the Minister's speech to learn that the financial assistance is to continue at the same rate. I understood the Bill which is promised at an early date — whenever that may be — would provide better financial assistance for houses of that nature. I suppose we can defer further consideration until we see the Bill, but it is a matter for concern that the increased costs as a result of the war and the effect of shortages and of the rapid rise in prices have caused many people, who formerly were able to make themselves independent of State aid by means of procuring a loan from building societies, to be in a position that in the future they will no longer be able to provide themselves with suitable housing accommodation. Not merely does that affect all those who were in need of accommodation pre-war, but it also affects a very large number who, since the war, got married and are now urgently in need of housing accommodation.

I would be anxious to hear from the Minister an outline, at any rate, of the proposed facilities under the new Housing Bill. As I understand it, one of the great difficulties which confronted builders in the past was the fact that the annual Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill gave no guarantee that the particular financial aid from that Bill would he continued for any period longer than a year. The builders regarded that as damping incentive, as they got no guarantee that no matter how carefully their plan was prepared or no matter what steps they took to provide sites, these financial provisions would be continued for any period in excess of a year. I suggest this matter should receive consideration and that efforts should be made in future to fix a period of say three years in which the facilities would be provided. Some guarantee should be given the builders so that the uncertainty which prevailed under the earlier Acts would be wiped out.

A matter on which the Minister seemed to speak with more vigour than on any other question was the item of turf production. I was interested to notice from the Estimate for this year that there has been a drop of £30,000 in the grants to local authorities for bog development and for work on bogs acquired by local authorities. I can speak from close practical experience only in the case of bogs in County Dublin. It is interesting to note that the number of producers on those bogs this year exceeds the number in any previous year since the emergency started. Whilst there has been a considerable drop in the number of allotment holders, the number of bank holders on bogs has shown a big increase. A problem which has caused grave hardship to private producers has been the difficulty of transporting turf from the bog to the bog-head and from the bog-head to their homes. Up to the present, development work by the Dublin County Council on these bogs has been, generally speaking, inadequate, although some bogs have been developed considerably. The Glencree bog has been developed by Bord na Móna and the Dublin County Council, but in Castlekelly, and in particular in the Glencullen area, development work is altogether inadequate. I would urge that every assistance and every incentive which the Minister can give by impressing on local authorities the necessity for carrying out this work should be brought into play.

It is, I suppose, late now to start cutting further turf, as it is practically the eleventh hour, but even those who have cut turf already would find it a considerable advantage if roads were made available in these areas. It would not merely solve the problem of transporting the turf from the centre of the bogs to the bog-heads but would also enable them to transport the turf easily, and without risk to their, vans and lorries, from the bog-heads to the main thoroughfares. The development which has taken place on those bogs has certainly improved the position, but up to the present insufficient attention has been paid to the matter of further road extension. I should like the Minister to urge the Dublin County Council to increase the facilities there. There are many people in Dublin City and County, most of whom during normal working hours in the week are engaged at their ordinary avocations, who devote all their spare time to producing turf on these bogs. At the week-ends or during the holidays they make their way to the bogs under considerable difficulties. They are not merely helping themselves but they are also helping the national position by engaging in this work. I think they deserve the congratulations of Deputies and of the country generally on their work.

Whatever responsibility for the provision of turf for the national pool devolves on Bord na Móna and the county councils, certainly private turf producers, particularly those who are obliged during the normal working week to carry out their ordinary duties and who at the end of the week take a bus to the bogs or even cycle there, deserve credit and the thanks of Deputies and of the country. I think the least that could be done to assist these people is to ensure that the necessary roads, drainage and other development on the bogs, which would ease their work and would facilitate considerably increased turf production, should be undertaken. If a person cutting turf is obliged to carry it out on his back or in a barrow over a difficult pathway, that fact inevitably lessens his capacity to cut more turf and involves a good deal of unnecessary labour in transporting it. If adequate roads were provided whatever turf is cut could be transported more easily. The existing facilities are in my opinion insufficient and the responsibility devolves on the Minister to urge local authorities concerned to provide better facilities.

I gathered from the Minister that anyone who cuts turf, any private producer, is guaranteed a sale for that turf but as I understand it some difficulty has been experienced in getting permission to cut turf in certain instances. Certain groups of committees have been formed in a number of areas for this purpose. Certainly in one particular case the committee was refused a licence to sell turf in a particular locality. While it would be objectionable that a whole host of new fuel merchants should spring up, I think that in the case of a committee formed of responsible members and with a responsible executive, when they proceed to cut turf and distribute it in a locality for sale, they should be afforded all necessary facilities. Unless we get this year a more effective rationing system I see no reason why any voluntary committee should be prevented from cutting turf and selling it in any particular locality.

On the question of road development and reconstruction, I was interested in the Minister's announcement that he had appointed survey committees. I had already noticed an announcement that a committee had been appointed to deal with the question of surfacing of roads with a view to facilitating the movement of live stock. While I should hesitate to advise that committee in any way, I do not know whether it is sufficiently realised by farmers that it is possible to procure studs which can be inserted in horses' shoes and which, if properly inserted when the horses are being shod, will effectively prevent their slipping on tar macadam roads. I think that the provision of a different surface, either at the side or on the middle of the road, is in no way a more satisfactory solution than having horses shod with these studs. It was difficult to procure these studs during the emergency but I understand they are more readily available now. I think the committee and the Department would do well to consider the more extended use of these studs and that they should urge farmers and other people who utilise horses for drawing vehicles or other purposes, to use these studs. It is true that they are not effective on concrete roads. I think that those who have occasion to work horses on roads find that they rarely slip on concrete surfaces. If these studs are available in sufficient number, I see no reason why they should not be effective in preventing horses from slipping, even on the smoothest surfaces from the point of view of the motor-user.

I would like if the Department would consider, especially, on roads leading into Dublin, the reimposition of a speed limit. It was imposed during the emergency, because it saved motor tyres, which were in course of deterioration from long use, from becoming further depreciated. On the roads leading into Dublin, which are now congested with transport bringing turf, logs or timber into the city, a number of serious accidents have taken place. I think it is the experience of the Garda authorities that many of these accidents are due to the excessive speeds at which these heavy motor vehicles travel. Therefore, I think a speed limit should be imposed in the case of some of these roads. It might have the effect of preventing accidents and from any point of view it would be beneficial.

On the question of water supplies and sewerage schemes, I should like to get from the Minister the names of the places for which sanction was given last year for the carrying out of such schemes. As I understand it, considerable difficulty was found daring the war in procuring pipes. The area that I am most interested in is the County Dublin. The Poulaphouca scheme has made available, and will make available in the future, improved facilities in areas where filter or sewerage schemes are contemplated. The scheme may not have sufficient pressure to make these facilities available in North County Dublin. Proposals were under consideration for the erection of a separate reservoir at the entrance to North County Dublin to which sufficient water could be pumped and from which supplies could be distiibuted to the towns and villages in that area. I understand that plans are in course of preparation for such a reservoir. I should like to hear from the Minister when it is proposed to provide similar facilities in South County Dublin. The difficulty that exists in North County Dublin does not, I understand, obtain there. Will he say what proposals the Department, in conjunction with the Dublin County Council and the corporation, has for the provision of water facilities in North County Dublin, and how it is proposed to provide them. It is unfortunate that the service which the Poulaphouca development envisaged had not been provided earlier. It may be, now that the supply of pipes is more readily available, that the work will proceed more rapidly. At any rate, every effort should be made to provide these services as soon as possible.

The Minister mentioned the extension of the electricity supply to houses under local authorities in rural areas. I do not know whether there is any uniform system under which local authorities provide current to houses under their control. Certainly, there does not appear to be the same system in operation in the case of all local authorities. I suggest to the Minister that a uniform system should be adopted under which local authorities would make a contribution so that the occupiers of county council cottages may have a supply of electricity made available to them. The proposed rural electrification scheme will no doubt eventually mean that many of these cottages, and other houses, will have the benefit of such a supply. The local authorities, so far as I am aware, only contribute to the cost of wiring the houses, or to the cost of an extension to county council houses in cases where public lighting is made available. Apart altogether from the question of public lighting — it is a matter which a county council might view from many angles — I think that if it were possible to make the electricity supply available, and if private householders in a locality were prepared to contribute, then the county council should do their part.

In many areas the county council are the people responsible for preventing an extension of the electricity supply by their refusal to contribute their share. In fact, in many cases private householders in an area have contributed, and have strained their resources by doing so, in order to ensure that the electricity supply which is being made available would be extended. I have had the experience that in certain areas the Dublin County Council refused to contribute. Eventually, private householders in the locality were forced to contribute more than an equitable share of the cost. I suggest to the Minister that in conjunction with the local authorities, he should consider not merely the basis but the whole question of contributions by local authorities towards an extension of electricity to houses under these bodies. If the different aspects of the question were considered by local authorities in conjunction with private householders in an area and by the Electricity Supply Board, I feel that many areas which are at present denied a supply of electricity, could be serviced. I commend the matter to the Minister for his consideration in conjunction with the local authorities.

The work of the Minister's Department can be said to fall under three heads: roads, turf and housing. To take housing first, there is a serious shortage of houses all over the country, not only in the rural areas but in the urban areas and in the cities. No attempt seems to be made to grapple with the problem. The Minister sidesteps a little, and blames the shortage of building materials as one of the principal causes for that. I think that a much greater cause, particularly in the rural areas, is the very small grant that is made available. Many people could provide a good deal of the raw material required for the building of houses. I refer particularly to timber. The sum made available at present — £40 grant and £40 loan — is administered by the Department. It is very small and, as the Minister must be aware, is absolutely inadequate. I do not know whether it is intended to introduce legislation to improve that grant, but I think such legislation is long overdue, and should be introduced at once. There is a deplorable shortage also of county council houses. Swinford takes the lead in County Mayo as being in desperate need of housing accommodation. It has been put before the Minister by way of deputation and by way of correspondence on many occasions that Swinford, Castlebar and Westport are desperately in need of houses. There Seems to be some scheme in existence for the erection of a sufficient number of cottages in these places but the blame seems to lie with the Custom House for holding up the scheme. That should not occur. When there are people in urban areas living in houses that would not be used as stables in rural areas, it is high time to take notice and do something about it. There has been a great deal of discussion and a good deal of money has been spent on tuberculosis. Bad housing and unhygienic housing is a certain, breeding ground for tuberculosis even among the healthiest. We are allowing a state of affairs to exist that is perpetuating and increasing the danger. I have received complaints from people living in galvanised huts that the average farmer would not dream of using for stock. In some cases there is a mother with three or four or six children living in these huts. The conditions are such in certain cases in County Mayo that I have brought them to the notice of the proper authorities.

The Minister dwelt at length on the subject of roads. It is a very big subject. He said that there is a big road construction programme under way, but that shortage of suitable labour and shortage of machinery were contributory causes of delay in carrying out the project. There may be a shortage of machinery, but I cannot see how, with 70,000 unemployed, be can say there is a shortage of labour. I hope the Minister will enlighten us on that point. When there are people flying from the country and emigrating to England, if the Minister is finding it difficult to get labour it is not sufficient for him to smile cheerfully and to say that labour is not available. The cause of the trouble must be found elsewhere. If the Minister investigates the matter he will find that inadequate wages are the cause of the trouble and not shortage of men.

The Minister indicated that a committee has been set up which is inquiring, among other things, into a better method of road surfacing, with a view to reducing the number of road accidents and to securing a greater degree of safety for animals and animal-drawn traffic on the roads. Depute Cosgrave suggested that the solution would be studs in horseshoes and said that studs for that purpose were not available during the war. As most Deputies know, studs in horseshoes are suitable only for the heavy type of horse — the Clydesdale and Shire type. The average farm horse, which is a fairly light horse, will not go comfortably on studs. The use of studs has been known to produce lameness and bone trouble in horses and thereby shortens their period of efficiency. The solution of the difficulty can be found in most of the tarred roads in County Roscommon, where the county surveyor has tarred a strip of road in the centre and has on each side a strip of rough stone bound together with ordinary road bitumen. That is the answer to the problem. To tar a road and to leave a perfectly glassy surface from grass margin to grass margin produces accidents.

If there is a nice tarred surface in the centre that is suitable for motor or vehicular traffic, there could be a rough strip on each side that, while presenting a smooth surface to vehicular traffic, would give a perfect grip to horses or other animals. It is essential that the safety of animals going to fairs should be considered. I travel through County Roscommon every week and I have noticed the layout of the roads there. On the road nearest to County Mayo the county surveyor has laid down a strip of smooth tar in the centre of the road which is excellent for motor traffic, and he has on each side of the road a mixture of rough broken stone and tar and possibly some gravel, bound and knit together to produce a fairly smooth surface but having sufficient roughness to give horses and unshod animals a perfect grip. I have not examined it closely but that is what I presume to be the composition. To concrete a road so as to produce a smooth surface across the entire width of the road is not fair either to horse traffic or to those in charge of animals.

The County Committee of Agriculture in Castlebar have sent their recommendations on that subject to the committee and they have dealt with the matter fairly fully. I hope that will help the Minister in coming to a solution of the problem because a solution must be found. We hear constant grumbling by farmers who are meeting with accidents with their horses. It is not fair to them. People travelling to and from fairs with cattle, sheep or other stock meet with accidents on wet days and frosty mornings, when the road surface is like a sheet of glass. Without detracting from the comfort and speed of motorists, there could be a suitable margin on each side of the road that would meet the requirements of other traffic. Then everybody would be satisfied.

The Minister implied that farmer Deputies were likely to comment on this and I took him to imply a distinction between farmers and townspeople with cars. I would inform the Minister that there are more cars and lorries in the rural areas than there are or ever will be in the towns. Country people realise that vehicular traffic has come to stay, with its advantages and, of course, its disadvantages. Nevertheless, they are quite satisfied. They are not envious of the townspeople. They do not, as the Minister would have us to understand, hate the townspeople. Every townsman has not a car and every townsman does not hate the car user. All that the country people want is a margin of safety on which to travel when they choose to travel by horse-drawn vehicle or when bringing stock to and from market. The country person likes speed in a bus or motor car just as much as any other person. I resent the attitude taken by the Minister where the country person is reduced to a shade above the animals as a user of the roads.

A huge amount of money has been spent on military roads of enormous width. By this time, we know where we are getting, that is, that the traffic which should be on the steel rails of Córas Iompair Éireann is being diverted to the roads. The railways are going rusty. The Minister will tell us that that is for want of coal and no doubt that is so; but even before the coal shortage there was a general desire, by the railway company to transfer a good deal of the heavy traffic to the roads. Steel rails were designed to carry heavy traffic and can do it much better than the lorries. If we change all the traffic formerly on the railways and divert it by way of lorries to the high roads, the job of keeping the main roads in repair will be, to use the Minister's own expression, a herculean one. It will impose a very heavy tax and will be a step in the wrong direction for the Fianna Fáil Government, if they decide to give up the 1944 Transport Act and divert a lot of the traffic to the roads. Some future Government will come along and drive a lot of the traffic back to the steel rails, which were designed in the beginning to carry such heavy traffic.

There is one slight matter I want to bring to the Minister's attention. Assistant county surveyors and other officials have had their salaries reviewed, during the past six or eight months and in most cases they have got increases, but the increases in all cases have not been sanctioned yet. In the meantime, certain bonuses and extras are being held up and they are pinned down to the bare salary. In the case of married people with children growing up and requiring secondary education, that is causing great hardship. I would ask the Minister to expedite the decision in those cases and have them settled at once. In the case of the young unmarried official, it is not producing any hardship but in the other case it is. The salary they were getting before, even with the bonus, left them just barely able to exist; and now, when this is held back, it is causing hardship and some of them have been reduced to the level of borrowing. It is very easy to imagine what can happen. At one time, we had a system whereby a good deal was done by way of the back hand or the bribe. If our officials go back to that system, it may not be so easy to root it out. It was not easy in the past. I would ask the Minister to make the decision at once and let them have the money which has been granted to them, both by the local authorities and by the Department.

I would like the Minister to tell us, when replying, the total taken from the road tax on motor vehicles, the petrol tax and drivers' licences.

I have not responsibility for it.

Surely the road tax, is within the Minister's control?

The Deputy can put the other questions to the other Ministers responsible.

The Minister is confining him'self to the road tax.

He spends it, so he knows what he has to spend.

The point is that these three particular sums, no matter under what Government Department they are collected, should revert again to the roads, as they are collected for the damage done by vehicular traffic to the roads. I do not know what has happened this year and I would like the Minister to tell us. I do not want to accuse him of what he did last year and the previous year, of collecting £1,250,000 — or some Government Department did collect it — for the damage done to the roads and only half of the amount so collected was returned to the various county councils. As a result, motor users had to for the damage and the ratepayers in each county had to supplement half of it in the rates, so it meant that the ratepayers had to contribute to the Central Fund to the tune of £500,000 or £600,000.

The Minister delayed a good deal on the turf question and no doubt it is a difficult one. He will receive sympathy from every side of the House in providing the turf, seeing that foreign coal supplies are not very promising, even yet. I want to point out that some private bog owners have not been encouraged and have got very poor thanks for the help given since the emergency commenced six or seven years ago. I am deliberately referring now to the way that an old Valuation Act of 100 years ago, passed about 1849 in the British House of Commons which made provision for the valuation of the whole country, has been used. Some person or other has suddenly discovered that under it a bog can be revalued and the valuation increased. I spoke of this matter before and I am glad to notice that since then no bogs in my county or the neighbouring counties have had their valuations increased. It was a very pernicious practice to adopt at the outset, the moment the Government thought they were out of the wood and could start whistling that the war was over. Those turf bogs had been a dead loss to those who owned them up till then and a loss in more ways than one, since they caused a loss also by virtue of the fact that some of them were undrained mire and dangerous to stock and that stock was lost in them. The moment the war was over the Government took it into its head to increase the valuation. That is the way those bog owners were treated all over the country.

The Minister has nothing to do with it. It is for the local authorities.

It was done in the Minister's Department. He would like to hand the responsibility over to the Minister for Finance and the Commissioners of Valuation, but I have gone into the matter at length.

The county managers are bound to assess those bogs under the existing law.

It is very easy for the Minister to throw it over to other Departments or to the county managers.

No; I have nothing to do with it.

The county managers are directly responsible to the Minister and anything they do will come home to the Minister, no matter how much he dislikes it.

There is nothing about the valuation of bogs in this.

I want to point out to you and to the Minister — and the Minister knows I am speaking the truth —that it was under his Department that the valuation of bogs was increased and it is his Department that collects the increase. Therefore, it is the Minister's responsibility. His county managers all over the country had full power and authority to increase the valuation. I will take a ruling from the Chair. If the county managers are not responsible for it to the Minister for Local Government, they must be responsible to some other Minister.

They are responsible to the county councils.

Of course, they are.

The Minister for Local Government collects no rates. The county managers are the officers of the county councils and are responsible to the county councils for the collection of the rates.

The Deputy's contention is that all other local authorities' affairs are being controlled and managed by the Minister.

There is a growing tendency, when a contentious matter or a matter with a nasty odour arises, to try to confuse the Chair by handing the baby on to the next Government Department. In this case, the Minister will not get away with it, as the county managers are directly responsible to him and to him only. Therefore, for what they do he will have to take the rap.

The Chair refuses to be confused either by the Minister or by the Deputy.

I am glad of that. I know the Chair will not be confused by this particular case. I like the way the Minister finished his speech. He left the graveyard of the increasing rates to the very last and then gave a few cheerful chirrups getting past it, and finally handed over the responsibility of the graveyard to a man who valued this country 100 years ago or nearly so, Sir Richard Griffith. He throws out a hint that I took — perhaps wrongly, though I think I am right — to mean there will be a revaluation of this country.

He said that before, but it never will be done while he is there.

An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

Though the valuation may have been carried out wrongly at that time, and there were serious faults to be found with it and also with the machinery under that old Valuation Act, allowing for revisions of valuations from time to time, I do not intend to go into that, because it does not at all account for the steep increase in rates, an increase of which we have not yet seen the end. We know quite well that the rates in every county next year will be higher than they are this year, and I do not think I am going too far when I say that they will be higher again in 1949 than in 1948. Expenditure is too high and not properly directed in all cases.

That is the cause of the trouble. Rates on agricultural land, on buildings and so on, are going far too high, and we are fast reaching a point at which they will be beyond the capacity of the ordinary farmer and the ordinary ratepayer to bear. Something will have to be done about it. Rates on farm buildings should have been wiped out, or if not wiped out, should have been stabilised long ago, but that has not been done.

We have still in operation the nasty system which operated in the time of the landlords under which, if a man improves his place or erects outoffices, a supervisor from the valuation office or from the Department comes down to value the improvements. It is nothing more or less than a relic of the old landlord system by which, it a man improved his place, drained a piece of land, put larger windows in his house or slated his house, the landlord's agent doubled or trebled the rent for his pains. This practice of putting a valuation on farm buildings the moment they are erected is nothing more or less than a relic of that old pernicious system, and I draw the Minister's attention to the fact that it is a system which does not obtain in any other country in Europe. It should be done away with. If a man is go-ahead and industrious enough to erect new buildings — and very few farms have sufficient outoffices — he should not be taxed for his industry.

The Deputy seems to be advocating an amendment of the law. Is that in order in a debate on an Estimated?

No, it is not in order to advocate legislation.

On the question of main roads, a lot of money is being spent, to my mind, uselessly, on the development and the widening of main roads and the removal of corners which were alleged to be dangerous but which were not nearly so dangerous as was suggested. Some of that money could be saved and spent on by-roads and bog-roads which have become burning questions in every county. A person living on a by-road is just as much entitled to have that road repaired as the man living on the main road who has the advantage of that main road. The man living on the by-road is as good a ratepayer and pays his rates just as promptly as the other man. There is very unfair discrimination between the person who is unfortunate enough to live in a village, the road into which is not a contract road, and the man who lives on a contract road. The Minister will probably tell us that there are minor employment schemes under another Department to cover that type of road and that there are also rural improvement schemes administered by that Department, but in many cases the people are not able to take advantage of either of these shemes. In the one case, there may not be sufficient unemployed to merit the giving of a grant, and, in the other, the people may not be able to contribute to the scheme and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance will not give the necessary grant.

A great deal of the money which is, being sunk in road-widening and cutting away corners, money which is being buried unproductively in roads, could be devoted to assisting those people who live along by-roads, and who, at various times of the year, are seriously handicapped in the matter of their agricultural output by, not being able to get threshing mills, beet lorries and so on into their places. Beet production would be practically doubled, at least in the Tuam area, if something was done about the by-road, question, because, in many cases, men living on these roads may have to cart beet half a mile or a mile and they may not have a horse and cart, while the lorry can call, so to speak, to the gate of the field of the man who lives along the main road. The Minister has no business to try to shelve the by-road question. It must be tackled.

He will tell us that it is a big question and I agree that it is a huge, question, but he is tackling a huge undertaking at present in putting down 3,000 miles of main roads all over the country, 58 feet and 60 feet wide, for traffic which will not develop in our time. Let the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Industry and Commerce keep the heavy traffic on the steel rails of the railway company and there will be no need to sink all this money in the main roads. The present policy of the Government is one other indication of the fact that the Government are forgetting the small people, but they do not forget them at election times when they claim their votes and promise big development schemes in order to secure them. That is mean and selfish of the Government. At the very least when they are returned with a working majority, they should not forget them, but should come to their rescue. Some of them are being pushed into the county homes by the failure — not on the part of the Minister's Department, but on the part of other Departments — to attend to their needs.

The recent reorganisation of certain State Departments leaves the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary with much less work and responsibility than they had prior to that reorganisation, or than was shouldered by any of their predecessors. I hope the additional time which will be at their disposal in future will be devoted to giving more attention to the proposals of local authorities which come up for sanction and that these proposals will in future be dealt with more expeditiously than they were dealt with in the past. The Minister knows well that many complaints were made by local authorities during the past few years regarding the delay on the part of the Department in dealing with proposals sent up for sanction.

The Minister admitted that he has responsibility under the new scheme of things for the general supervision of local authorities, but he did not say— and I wish he had gone on to say— what were the recent relations between the local authorities and the Department. I meet members of local authorities from time to time — sometimes in groups and sometimes individually. I met a fairly large group of members of all the local authorities in my constituency recently — a large number of them associated with my own Party. I listened for a long time to a fairly lengthy report by the chairman of one county council and members of the two county councils, the urban councils and town commissioners, and they appeared to think that all responsibility, except in the matter of striking rates, has been taken from the members of local authorities. I gather also —and I say this in quite an impersonal sense; I am not speaking in the politicall sense — from members of local authorities in my area — members outside my own Party — that there will be far greater difficulty in the coming local elections, whenever they take place, in getting suitable candidates to go forward than in the past. That is a bad thing for the future of local government. I gather that, even now, no attention whatever is paid by the county manager, although he is a very efficient young man, to recommendations sent in by the members of local authorities in connection with the letting of cottages or any other matter. They have merely the right and the responsibility of striking a rate once per year, and, if they hesitate or refuse to do so, they will be wiped out.

There was a good deal of hesitation on a recent occasion at a meeting of one of the county councils in my area. It went to the extent of refusal on the part of certain members to strike a rate in accordance with the estimates gubmitted by the county manager, because, in the opinion of some of the members, the money that was proposed to be raised would not be spent inside the financial year. Definite questions were directed to the county manager during the discussion at this estimates meeting as to whether he could give an undertaking that money allocated, for instance, for steamrolling and tarring roads would be spent inside the financial year. The undertaking was given. I understand that as a result of the withdrawal of roadworkers for turf production certain works, in the opinion of the county surveyor, for which provision was made in the estimates, cannot now be carried out within the proper period of the year with the result that the local ratepayers are asked to pay rates for works which will not be carried out during the financial year and the money goes back to revenue. I think that is wrong. I hope the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary will pay some attention to that matter if it arises again.

I would like to know from the Minister — he dealt with the matter during his lengthy and, I will say, informative statement — what is the procedure adopted by him in connection with the increases of salaries granted to executive officers, to officials of local authorities, to road-workers and to other employees. I understand —I was listening to the statement being made by the chairman of a county council and other members— that a direction was given by the Department of Local Government to increase the salaries of executive officers and officials to a certain figure. They had no alternative but to make provision for that in the estimates whereas, on the other hand, no direction was given in connection with the wages paid to road-workers.

The Minister waits until the recommendation comes up from the local authority, if they are willing — as most of them are — to make reasonable recommendations. Then he uses his sledge-hammer to limit the amounts paid to road workers, but he is the Lord High Executioner, the Lord Almighty, as far as increasing the salaries of executive officers and officials is concerned. Will the Minister, when he is replying, give us an indication of the percentage increases sanctioned by him up to the moment, so far as they affect the wages of road workers, the wages of overseers, the wages of gangers and the increased salaries paid to higher executive officers and other officials? I understand that the pre-war wage of overseers has been doubled, but that all the ordinary road worker, who does the job, is getting is a 50 per cent. increase on his pre-war wage. Everybody knows that, in the midland counties at any rate, the flat rate pre-war was 30/- per week. The Minister will not go further than £2 10s. now. I have been told that, in the case of an executive officer in my constituency, instructions were given by the Minister to increase his salary by £200. The county council were not asked to make a recommendation, they merely got an ultimatum from the Ministerial dictator in the Custom House that they must increase this man's salary by £200, and other salaries were increased to a corresponding extent.

I am not making any complaint about the council's attitude in giving the increase to officials, but I hold that there should be a levelling-up in the percentage increase in the figures for officials and workers over their pre-war wages. If there is to be any levelling-up, let it be in respect of those who were in receipt of the lower figure in pre-war days. For instance, does the Minister approve of the action of the Labour Court, or of the Electricity Supply Board, following the recommendation of the Labour Court, to increase by 60 per cent. the pre-war wages of workers in all cases where the wage was less than £3 during pre-war days; 55 per cent. in the case of those between £3 and £4, and 50 per cent. in the case of those above £4? I understood from a statement made in this House by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that that was regarded as a fair way of tackling this whole difficult problem of dealing with the wages and salaries question. That, generally, is the line taken by the Department of Industry and Commerce followed by decisions of the Labour Court. That is not the line taken by the Minister for Local Government, especially when dealing with recommendations sent up by county councils for increasing the pre-war wage of the man who does the job. However, there is a different attitude, at any rate, on the part of the Minister when dealing with officials, as compared, with ordinary road workers. The Minister, in the concluding portion of his speech, endeavoured — as is usual, of course — to place the responsibility for wage disputes and strikes on this small group. I think it was injudicious — he can play politics, of course, and play them very well on the platform — to refer to the matter here in this House before a decision of the Labour Court was issued. The Minister may know what is in the minds of the members of the Labour Court, but though the decision of the Labour Court on the demands of the turf workers has not yet been made public, he gets up in this House and makes an ex parte statement on the matter.

I did not. I merely said that the official organ of the Labour Party was endeavouring to foment a strike in the Kildare turf camps, and that strike has now come off. No doubt, when the people have not turf, the Labour Party will come round here placing responsibility for the deficiency of turf on the Government.

I would not mind gambling that the Minister for Industry and Commerce — a colleague of the Minister for Local Government, who knows more about the attitude of the Leader of the Labour Party in connection with matters of this kind, and the extent to which he has been successful in the past in preventing strikes than the Minister for Local Government does — would not repeat the charge made in this matter. The Minister for Industry and Commerce knows ten times more about this matter than the Minister for Local Government does.

Then I take it the Labour Party does not control its own official organ.

There is another side to this story. I do not want to go into it in any great detail. I have already indicated — and I do not want to repeat it — my view in connection with lightning strikes. Some strikes are described as "lightning strikes" when, in fact, they take place in some cases after months of consultation and negotiation. I have here a case — and the Minister knows something about it — where the turf-workers and road-workers who are organised and unorganised, some of them with the Federation of Rural Workers, submitted a demand to, the Offaly County Council on the 7th March last — that is a good time ago — to which they did not even receive an acknowledgment for five or six weeks. That demand was sent in by the secretary of the Federation of Rural Workers, which is an organisation——

Started by the Labour Party.

Not at all. It was granted a licence by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and it is not —for the information of the Minister for Local Government — affiliated to the Labour Party.

I know that Deputy Corish is a member of its executive committee.

This demand was not, as I say, even acknowledged for about six weeks. The demand was a fairly modest one, £3 per week, a 48 hours' week, 2 weeks' holidays with pay, and protective clothing for the road workers. Is there anything wrong with £3 per week in view of the fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce stated about two weeks ago that the purchasing power of the £ pre-war is only 10/- to-day and especially if the road workers in pre-war days received 30/- a week. Bog workers: cutters, £3 18s. 0d.; wheelers, £3 10s. 0d. — less than is being paid by private turf producers to competent men in the same county. That had to be repeated six weeks after it was seat in by the county secretary of the same organisation. The county manager, presumably after consultation by phone or otherwise with the Minister's Department, wrote to the secretary of the organisation on the 23rd May — a few days ago: "With reference to your letter of 20th instant"— that was the repeat letter —"I am directed by the county manager to request you to let me have particulars of the matters the deputation wish to have discussed." I suppose the workers concerned will be accused of engaging in a lightning strike because they went on strike after they had failed to get any acknowledgment for six weeks and having got that ridiculous letter a couple of months after they had made a reasonable demand. That is the other side of the case and you are responsible for that and nobody else.

The Minister is responsible. He cannot disclaim responsibility for that method of dealing with the reasonable claims of organised workers. Let him get out in republican Rathmines and give the whole story and not be giving portion of it and speaking of the Labour Party and their unreasonable demands.

I did not say that. I said that a political Party was trying to sabotage production——

I repudiate that and I challenge the Minister to ask the managing director, the chief engineer or the secretary of Bord na Móna whether Deputy Norton and I urged the men not to go on strike in certain circumstances and whether they acceded to our request. I have no personal or political responsibility for the turf workers in Offaly or anywhere else. I can give good advice and, perhaps, bad advice. They can accept it or reject it, just as if it were tendered by the Minister. The Minister does not like the name of the organisation with which these men are associated. That is what is wrong with him. The Minister makes these unfounded charges and ex parte statements. If I were to get up to do the same, I should not be allowed, but the Minister has got away with it. He knows very well that an organisation representing the turf workers was before the Labour Court only two weeks ago and that no decision has been officially issued since that date.

I am not talking about an organisation——

The Minister gets up to prejudice that decision if his words should have any influence with members of the Labour Court. The members of my Party have, in this matter, no personal or political responsibility.

I was speaking merely of the weekly paper for which the Deputy is responsible.

I listened to the Minister without interrupting him. If he wants to speak, let him get up and put himself in order. Cannot the Minister deal with the matter in a calm and cool way when replying?

Certainly.

These people are not supposed to have any grievances. Did the Minister make any inquiries into this matter? Would he inquire from his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, how many of the turf workers in the camps under the control of Bord na Móna had a net income of 5/-, 10/-, 15/- and not more than £1 during the past five months? He would be amazed it he did so. I have here one of many cheques issued, in this case on the 1st May, which I have recently examined and which is made out for the munificent sum of 2d. It bears a 2d. stamp and is signed by two officials. The date is the 1st May and the number is 93333. If the Minister makes inquiries, he will be able to get the name of the turf worker employed by Bord na Móna who lined up to receive 2d. at the end of a week. That is only one of many cheques recently produced to the Labour Court when the officials of the organisation representing the men were making their case before that court. It is hardly credible that a cheque for 2d., signed by two officials and with a 2d. stamp, would be issued.

I saw a photograph of one for 4d.

It did not come from any Communist organisation?

It was published in The People, the official organ of the Labour Party.

I did not see that.

You do not read your own paper.

The worker who got this cheque at the end of a week is supposed not to have any grievance. However, this is really matter outside the control of the county councils and I was dealing with the county councils. It is a matter between Bord na Móna and the Federation of Rural Workers. I was dealing specifically with the failure of the Minister and those responsible to him to face in a proper, constitutional way and deal in a tactful manner with the reasonable demands of organised workers in my constituency. I hope that nothing like that will happen again. If it does, I hope the Minister will not come to the House, "pass the buck" from himself and those responsible and put all the blame on the other side.

The Minister stated, in his long and informative speech, that the roads had deteriorated considerably owing to shortage of materials. That is only part of the case. The roads have deteriorated to a dangerous degree in my constituency. That is not solely due to the fact that materials were not available. It is due, in part, to the fact that road workers were taken away from their ordinary jobs at the period of the year when tarring and steam-rolling should have been done. In future, if road workers have to be taken away for turf cutting between May and September, the county manager should be instructed to recruit, if he can, a road maintenance staff for the purpose of doing this class of work in the proper time of the year. The roads in Laoighis cannot bear any further wear and tear. I urge the Minister to direct one of his engineering inspectors to make a tour of the roads of the County Laoighis, not immediately but as soon as he can conveniently do so, and to report as to their condition. If he bears out what I say, I urge the Minister to take steps to have the urgent road improvements effected as soon as possible. There was a shortage of material during the emergency period but that is not the whole of the case.

The Minister stated that bad weather caused considerable damage to the roads and that there was an acute shortage of labour. There is an acute shortage of labour, so far as road work is concerned, in my constituency, because of the low rate of wages sanctioned by the Minister and owing to the failure of the Minister and nobody else — I am not blaming the county manager — to bring up the rates of wages of road workers to, at least, the figure paid by decent farmers in my constituency. I do not know any decent farmer in my constituency who pays less than £3 per week to an agricultural labourer. Farmers would not be able to get agricultural labourers in a turf-cutting constituency, such as that, unless they paid at least £3. I ask the Minister to make inquiries through his own agencies into the matter. The Minister has explained that road maintenance and improvement works have not been carried out owing to the acute shortage of labour during the past few years. Any agricultural labourer or cottage tenant in my constituency can make, provided the weather is good, £5 per week by cutting and selling turf during the turf-cutting period. That is the explanation of the acute shortage of labour so far as the county councils are concerned. The Minister will have to face up to that. I sometimes think the Minister wants to be fair. He is a different individual when you are talking to him from what he is when he goes off the deep-end in this House or when he speaks with notes from a republican platform in Rathmines. When he gets up here to make a statement he goes off the deep-end when he sees a couple of members of this Party here. He thinks that we are going to break up the Government, just as we are supposed to be breaking up Bord na Móna and everything else. He is altogether wrong in that.

With regard to the question of housing, the Minister stated, and I thoroughly agree with him, that it is necessary to have a high standard in the planning and construction of houses. If he wants that high standard in planning, and especially in the construction of houses, he will have to change the procedure or methods of some of the people who work under his supervision — I do not say in his Department — and who carry out the construction of houses in the different counties. I have had many complaints on that matter. It is not a pleasure for me to have to listen to these complaints or repeat them to Departmental officials or write to the Minister or the Department about them. I have had innumerable complaints, and I think genuine ones in many cases, from my constituency regarding the failure of contractors to complete, according to plan and specification, the building of houses.

The Minister is a professional man and he will see the good sense of it, and I urge him, therefore, to make a regulation that the county manager or the engineers responsible will insist on having as clerk of works a properly qualified person, either a junior engineer or a carpenter with long experience. The appointment of handy men to the position of clerk of works in my area has been the sole casuse of innumerable and genuine complaints that have come to me and have gone to the Department in connection with the construction of houses. I think that matter will be remedied if the Minister will see that a properly qualified person of the type I suggest is put in charge of these schemes, and that they are not left in charge of handy men. I can give him privately the names of various areas where such schemes were very badly carried out and were not completed properly because handy men were appointed to the position of clerk of works. If the Minister will consult with the chairman of the Offaly County Council or any of his own political friends in the counties of Leix and Offaly, I am sure they will confirm what I am saying. I thoroughly agree with his view on that matter and I hope he will take the necessary steps to see that his views are carried out.

It is, of course, correct to say that the failure to carry out housing schemes is due, to a large extent, to the shortage of timber. I do not know what is going to be the position in, regard to the building of houses in the rural areas in my constituency. It is extremely difficult, in fact almost impossible, to get experienced contractors to tender for the erection of houses. If it is possible, it might be less expensive if the Minister, or the county manager with the Minister's approval, was able to get a big building contractor to take on the job of building 250 or 300 houses, or whatever number is required in the rural areas, rather than give contracts to these inexperienced contractors. Such a contractor would do the job well and give the best return for the big amount of money spent on these housing schemes. If you could get a big building contractor with a mobile gang of skilled and unskilled men to go into a county, in the long run I believe it would pay those who have to find the money to get the job done in that way.

The Minister in his statement referred to the delay in carrying out waterworks and sewerage schemes. It was a pleasant surprise to me to hear that so many of these schemes — I think the number given was 39 — had been completed in the past year. I ask the Minister to make inquiries in his Department as to the number of such schemes still awaiting approval. So far as the Counties of Leix and Offaly are concerned, particularly Leix, I under stand that there is considerable delay on the part of the Department in giving final approval to the carrying out of waterworks and sewerage schemes submitted some years ago.

I am rather surprised and disappointed to see that there is a reduction of £30,000 in the coming year under sub-head K — development works in bogs acquired by local authorities. I am aware that a good quantity of turf cut last year is still lying on the bogs in the Counties Leix and Offaly because of the bad condition of the roads last year. Of course, the bad weather had something to do with it also. I feel alarmed about the fuel position for the coming winter. I made it my business — I do not do it very often; I doubt if I have ever done it before in my 25 years here — on two week-ends recently to go on an extensive tour of my constituency to meet people and to see what is the position in regard to the quantity of turf left on the bogs since last year and the prospects tor the coming year. These two counties made a very big contribution daring the emergency to the national pool. It is a very serious situation. I, therefore, realise the necessity for Deputies encouraging every kind of producer of turf the private producer, the people employed by Bord na Móna, the county councils and everybody else, to put their backs into the job for the purpose of trying to save the people of the cities who will have to rely on turf for fuel during the coming winter. It is a terrible position to have to face.

I think some of the difficulty in the way of getting turf out of the bogs is due to the bad condition of bog roads, in portions of my constituency anyway, so far as the bogs under the control of the county councils are concerned. I ask the Minister not to cut this Estimate if, after consultation with the county engineers, they believe that more money should be made available for the purpose of putting bog roads under the control of county councils in a better condition than they are now. I made representations to the employment schemes branch of the Board of Works to treat applications for such works as urgent, because unless the roads are repaired you cannot get a proper return from these bogs. I hope that the reduction under sub-head K of £30,000 will not have a detrimental effect from that point of view.

I also notice that grants under the Housing Acts for the current year are to be reduced by £20,000. If that is due to the fact that applications are not coming in, it is all right. But I should like the Minister to explain why the money allocated to that very useful kind of work is being cut by £20,000. Nobody knows better than I do the valuable work done by the housing section of the Local Government Department. That applies to every section of the Department, but particularly to the housing section. Over a long period of years the officials who have been in charge of that section have been helping the Government to do a very good job. I would not like the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Local Government to deprive them of money which could be usefully spent by way of grants to people entitled to them.

There is one other matter which I think has been brought to the notice of the Department and the Minister on more than one occasion, that is, the suggestion by the Tullamore Urban Council, a very progressive housing authority, one of the best in the country, for the merging of old loans. That suggestion was turned down at a time when the Royal Liver Friendly Society was prepared to give a loan at about 1½ per cent. interest below the existing average rate. I understand they were willing to give a loan at the rate of 4 per cent., but for some reason or other that was turned down either by the Department of Finance or the Department of Local Government.

Is it possible, under the regulations governing the issue of such loans, for the Tullamore Urban Council to have all these loans merged? If they get authority to do it, I understand they will be able to fix a standard rent for three or four different types of houses, built at different periods and now let at different rents, although the houses are of the same type and have the same accommodation. There is a good deal of jealousy between the tenants of the different classes of houses, built at different periods under different Departmental regulations and different rates of interest. I shall be glad if the Minister will devote his attention to that matter at an early date and see if he could bring about some remedy. There is one matter that has been the cause of complaint for a long period and it has relation to the hospital accommodation in Offaly.

Surely, that is a matter for the Minister for Health?

I am sorry I missed the opportunity of bringing this hardy annual before the notice of the proper Minister. Perhaps, if the Minister for Local Government has any influence with his colleague, he will pass on a good word?

He will have to exercise his influence outside this debate.

During the past year the wings of the Minister for Local Government were considerably clipped. Notwithstanding that fact, as his introductory statement indicated, he has still a wide field over which to range. He touched upon a great many matters and I think he dealt with them in a responsible and serious way.

Approaching this matter, I would be inclined to put the various spheres of activity of the Minister in the order of what I consider to be priority. First of all, I would take turf production. While turf production may be just an occasional concern for the Department of Local Government, it is at the moment one of the most urgent branches of public work. I think all the resources of the State should be put behind a drive for increased production during the next few weeks. There are only a few weeks in which turf production can be effectively carried out and, unions good work is done, certainly within the month of June, the community will be faced with a very serious situation. No effort should be spared to get every possible producer engaged on this very important work.

As the Minister pointed out, local authorities have done a great deal during the emergency years, but they are in many ways restricted by reason of their organisation and their personnel. Local authorities were never constituted, and their officials were never trained, for the work of turf production on a large scale. It is a welcome departure that this work will in the near future be placed in the hands of a separate body which will have primary responsibility for turf production. The functions of local authorities are more concerned with other types of work which have been, by tradition and custom, associated with local government over a long number of years. Nevertheless, during the emergency good work was done. During the next few weeks a tremendous appeal must be made to private producers to go all out in order to add to the pool of production.

No effort should be spared to bring about common sense and reason in relation to any differences of opinion which may arise about wages and conditions of work. Reason and common sense must operate in those matters and, whatever grievances men feel they may have, those should be modified for few weeks. It was unwise on the part of the Minister to put a political complexion on the agitation for better conditions for turf workers. The further we can keep politics away from the bogs the better. What we want is an all-out co-operative effort to get the maximum production.

The second important work of local authorities is housing, and on this question the Minister gave a considerable amount of information. He indicated that 61,000 houses are urgently required. Last year he estimated there were 60,000 houses required, so we do not seem to be making very much progress in dealing with the housing problem. I suppose it is understandable that the work of erecting houses could not hnvc been very extensive over the past 12 months, having regard to the shortage of materials, particularly of cement, but it is noticeable all over the country that, cinemas, luxury hotels and big profit-making concerns have been erected during the past year. I have been told by people connected with that type of construction that the material can be got, provided you know your way about. Apparently the people who go in for erecting big hotels, cinemas and other profit-making concerns know their way about better than the local authorities or the Department.

It is unfortunate that local authorities find it nearly impossible to get supplies of any kind. I know some local authorities which have gone ahead with building in a very progressive way and they find they have had to leave houses half constructed or in various stages of construction because the necessary materials to complete them could not be obtained.

I was glad to hear the Minister state at that it is intended to extend the period for the repayment of loans for housing purposes. The proposal is, I think, to extend the period from 35 years to 50 years. I have never been able to understand why the period of repayment should not be extended to 100 years. I think if a building contractor or an architect is not able to guarantee a life of 100 years for a house he should not be in his job. We know that all over the country farmers are living in houses which were erected several hundred years ago and which are still going strong. I am not so sure that the House in which we are deliberating to-day, Leinster House, was not erected several hundred years ago. I think that by extending the period of repayment of loans to 100 years we would be going a good way towards relieving the burden on the ratepayers and also on incoming tenants. The rates of interest have been substantially reduced, but I think they could be reduced very much further. A well-constructed house is better security for money invested than gold, and I think there is no reason why money advanced for housing should carry even the present, rate of interest.

I raised a matter last year rather briefly in connection with this whole position of housing for our people, and I intend to dwell on it just for a short time again to-day. The Minister indicated that there are approximately 60,000 houses required and that a little more than one-fourth of that number are required for rural areas. Last year, when I raised this matter, he, by way of interruption, informed me that his survey was based on an investigation by local authorities. I wonder is that a practical and realistic survey? Local authorities estimate housing needs by demands which ore made on them by people who are in urgent need of houses and who feel that they can secure housing accommodation through the local authorities. I think that, in dealing with this problem in a national way, you have to consider not only applications made by possible tenants but the needs of the various industries and the national economic needs generally. If a number of people crowd into our towns and cities seeking employment, if a large number marry and go into rooms and find then that they require housing accommodation, they will naturally place their demands in the city where they have found temporary accommodation. But the real need for those houses is not in the city but in the rural areas from which these people have been drawn.

I think as long as you go on extending the housing schemes of the large cities and towns, while soft-pedalling in regard to the needs of the rural areas, you are aggravating the flight from the rural areas. I feel that once you succeed in securing the necessary materials you have got to provide more housing accommodation in the rural areas than the number for which there is actually a demand — in the first place to prevent people from seeking accommodation in the large towns and cities; and in the second place, to attract people from the towns and cities to the rural areas. I think you should aim at having a surplus rather than a scarcity of houses in the rural areas. That would have some effect in inducing people to remain in the country and possibly in inducing some of the people who have left country districts to return. There is no doubt that you can erect houses as cheaply— you can certainly acquire sites more cheaply — in the rural areas as in the cities. I think the provision of houses in the rural areas would in the end entail less expenditure than providing houses in the cities.

Another aspect of the matter which comes more or less under the heading of housing but also comes under the heading of the administration of local authorities arises from the system under which the tenants of cottages in rural areas are selected. At present, the tenant is selected on the recommendation of the county medical officer of health.

Not in our case. The manager makes the selection.

Yes, but the manager acts on the recommendation of the county medical officer of health. That is a good rule in a certain way but at the same time it has certain disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that in an isolated rural district you may have an agricultural worker applying for a cottage and at the same time you may have a person with no agricultural experience, a member of whose family is suffering from tuberculosis. In that case the person, the member of whose family is suffering from tuberculosis, will get a preference. He will get the cottage and he will be-transferred to a rural area where he cannot find work because he has no experience of agricultural work. It may possibly be that the man himself is suffering from tuberculosis and may be unable to work. Thus you create a position in which that area is deprived of an agricultural worker and the local farmers find that the number of agricultural workers in the area is thereby reduced. I think in this connection you have got to view not only the social problem of providing housing accommodation for people who very urgently need it but you have also to view the urgent needs of the agricultural industry. It must be remembered that when cottage sites were acquired from farmers in rural areas, they were acquired on the undertaking that the farmer would benefit by giving these si tea inasmuch as he would have agricultural labourers residing convenient to his farm. That undertaking is now being broken. It is a breach of contract, I would say, on the part of the State with the farming community. We have the position in which people arc selected as tenants of rural cottages who have either no knowledge of agriculture or who are unfitted for agricultural work for health reasons or otherwise. I think that is a problem that will have to be solved.

Again the estimate of the need of our national requirements in regard to housing is altogether inadequate. We know that the 60,000 houses to which the Minister refers are houses only for workers but, in addition, there is a tremendous housing problem for members of the fanning community. A very large number of farmhouses, particularly the houses on farms of, say, £50 valuation, are unfit for human habitation. They have been built for a long number of years and many of them have deteriorated. I think that a survey should be made of the needs of the farming community in regard to housing. It is true that it is necessary for the State to subsidise houses for the workers. It is doing so on a very generous scale at the present time. The subsidy represents two-thirds of the price of each house, and under the Transition Fund we are increasing it very substantially. Yet, we are doing nothing, or very little, to assist farmers in the matter of proper housing accommodation. Deputies who represent rural constituencies and visit members of the farming community must realise that very many farmers are living in houses which are very much worse than those occupied by workers. Therefore I think it is urgently desirable that a survey of the needs of the farming community in this respect should be made.

Last week I had occasion to visit a farmer who was seeking a reconstruction grant for his house. I found that the old farmhouse erected, possibly, 100 years ago and very badly constructed at the time was in danger collapsing. That man had not the capital to provide himself with a house. As his valuation was over £25 he could not obtain a reconstruction grant or the larger grant which is given for the erection of a completely new house. He also found that it would, be very difficult to obtain the necessary capital on loan from any source to provide himself with a house. His income from that small farm was smaller than the income of many workers who benefit from the housing subsidies provided by the State. Yet the State is not prepared to do anything on behalf of such a man. I think something definite. should be done for such people. The first step should be to make survey, even of one or two counties, to ascertain the needs of farmers in the matter of housing accommodation and to see how far it may be possible to meet it. I know that at the moment it may sound a little inopportune to speak of this matter when work is so much in arrears in the provision of houses for workers. Nevertheless, all those problems are correlated and you cannot deal fairly with one section without dealing generously and with justice towards other sections In addition, as I have pointed out, the provision of good housing accommodation for workers in the towns must inevitably attract farmers' sons away from the bad and unsatisfactory houses which we have in the rural areas. I think the Department is doing a national wrong and serious damage to the whole economic fabric if it continues that policy. Any housing survey to be fair, just and progressive must be universal. It must apply to all sections of the community. I am satisfied that the number of people in the country who need fairly generous State aid in regard to housing exceeds the number of weekly wage earners and covers not only farmers but a large section of the middle class. They all certainly require State assistance in the matter of housing.

The Minister indicated that a considerable amount of work has been done under the Act which makes provision for extra room for tuberculous patients. I have discussed that branch of the administration with some medical men and local officials, and I find that they are not so keen on it. They think that the provision of a permanent room is not the best way to deal with that problem. The adding of a permanent room to a cottage for a tubercular patient more or less places a sort of stigma on it, so that later on it might not be easy to get a tenant for it. I think that the better way to deal with that problem, if it is impossible to provide institutional accommodation, would be by means of a temporary chalet or hut. The hut could be destroyed afterwards when the patient had completely recovered or had passed away. I certainly think there is not very much of an advantage to be gained by this scheme.

I think that the idea of the Minister in having a competition for designs for houses is a good one. We want more variety and more up-to-date progress in the matter of the designs of houses. Variety is good. It improves the appearance of any housing scheme. In addition, I am sure that a competition of this kind will lead to new ideas which may result in economy and in greater efficiency in the erection of houses and in, perhaps, ease and comfort for those who will live in them afterwards. I think there should also be a competition with a view to getting plans or designs for the erection of houses in which the minimum amount of timber would be required, and not only timber but of other housing materials which are in short supply. We have to direct the attention of our engineers, inventors and architects to the importance of eliminating as far as possible materials which for a long time will be in short supply. The problem of housing is not confined to this country. Every nation in Europe will be engaged in an intensive housing campaign, if the international situation allows them to do so, during the next ten or 20 years. It is essential, therefore, to use materials that are available in this country and which are suitable for houses, so that we will not have to depend on the importation of materials that are in short supply in the world. The attention of our engineers and architects should be directed to that problem as one of very great urgency.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

A short time ago I had a discussion with an official of a local authority in regard to the grouping of cottages. The Minister referred to that matter to-day and I was interested in that there was a striking similarity between the views expressed by the Minister and those expressed by the local official. The Minister appears to be very keen on having rural cottages grouped into little villages so that water, light and other amenities can be more easily provided. There are certain advantages in such a scheme but there are also very great disadvantages. For example, if ten or 20 or more agricultural workers are grouped in a small area, it will mean that a very large area will be left without agricultural workers or agricultural workers will have to travel a long distance to their work. The advantages derived by way of amenities may be nullified by the disadvantage of having to travel two or three miles to work. Deputies can imagine what it is like in winter to have to rise at 6 or 7 o'clock in the morning and to cycle or walk two or three miles to work in the kind of weather we frequently get. Whatever advantages may be gained by the grouping system would be completely out-weighed by the disadvantages of being so far removed from their place of work and there is also the disadvantage to the farmer of having his workers living so far away.

There are two sides to this question and as the Minister's ideas seem to have been transmitted to officials throughout the country, it is right that the other side of the case should be presented. I believe that all agricultural labourers' cottages should have all the amenities that it is possible to provide for them. Even if a cottage is isolated and far removed from a village, it should be provided with all possible amenities. Every citizen should he provided with water, if not piped to his house, at least in his yard or at a convenient distance from his kitchen door.

The late Depute William O'Donnell, during the few years ho was a member of this House, urged this matter very strongly and it is to his credit that his representations have borne fruit. I am glad that the Minister has indicated that he is investigating this matter and that a serious attempt will be made to provide a water supply, wherever possible, to every rural dwelling. It is no use, and it is becoming almost a waste of public money, to erect a public pump in such a position as to serve nine or ten or 12 cottages. It frequently happens in the case of such pumps that they are everybody's property and nobody's property and they are frequently damaged or go out of order.

Children and tinkers, and so on, damage them and they are more often out of order than in working order. Every worker should have a water supply on his own property, convenient to his house. That should be attended to as a matter of real urgency.

I trust the Minister will not be too dogmatic or too insistent in regard to the grouping of cottages in villages. I know that on the Continent and in other places the system is to herd the rural community in little villages. We have adopted over a long number of years a different system of life and I think ours is in many ways the better system. With the expansion of rural electrification, with better roads and with other accommodation, it will be possible for people to live scattered over wide areas and yet enjoy most of the amenities.

When I had the discussion with the official that I have already referred to, he indicated the advantages to the rural workers of having their cottages grouped in a small village, in the way of social contacts as well as various amenities. I put the case to him of the small farmers who must live in isolation and on farms scattered over the rural areas. I asked him how do they manage to survive, did he propose that the farmers also should be brought into a village system. I consider that the idea is foolish and I do not think the Minister should iusiht on it. I agree, of course, that it is no harm to consider these matters from a long-term view and to lay plans far in advance for the future. We should not view these matters in a hand to mouth. fashion, from week to week, as stopgap arrangements. We should plan for perhaps 100 years ahead.

Taking the longest possible view of the situation, I consider that it is better to distribute houses as widely as possible over the rural areas. We have been pursuing a policy of grouping a large and ever-increasing proportion of the population in an area within five or six miles' radius of Nelson's Pillar. I do not know what would happen if somebody should quarrel with us and drop an atomic bomb. That matter ought to be considered. My idea of distributing the population wide and far over the entire area of the State is much more desirable from every conceivable aspect. With the advance of science, we should be able to give nearly all the amenities, or desirable amenities, of city life to the rural population, whether in Galway or Mayo, in Wicklow or elsewhere. We talk about the congested districts in the West, but we are building up a congested district around the mouth of the Liffey, which in the future may be a much more serious problem.

Third in the order of priority I would place our roads. We want good roads, better roads and still better roads. The Minister indicated a desire to concentrate upon the roads where there is heavier traffic, checking the volume of traffic on them in order to see which of them required the most urgent attention. Here again is a tendency to depart from the isolated rural areas and concentrate on the big centres of population and the communication roads between them. The people who live down the long by-roads and who, having gone along the by-roads, have to travel along boreens and culs-de-sac in order to reach their homes, are as important in the State as those who live on the side of the big main roads or in the cities. We know this matter is becoming serious. Auctioneers tell us they can sell land alone the big main roads and near the cities for nearly ten times the price it is fetching in the remote rural areas. That is a deplorable situation, that tendency of the whole population to try to get to Dublin or within a few hours' journey from the city, as if Dublin were the heaven towards which all must turn their eyes.

It is the duty of the State to try to reverse that tendency. The people who live on the small farms in rural areas should have a decent approach roadway to them. It may cost a lot, but it would be may well spent and would give those people an incentive to remain there and bring up their families there. We have to fight against the pull being exerted upon our young people by the cities and towns. We must fight it resolutely and be prepared to spend millions in doing so. Not only must we provide good houses for the rural population, but we must also provide good accommodation roads to those houses. That is an aspect of road planning which will have to be considered. It will cost an enormous sum of money, but it is a national investment of the most urgent importance. The money which would be expended would be nothing to what has been expended on the development of our larger cities and towns over the past 25 years.

I was glad the Minister indicated that he is giving careful and painstaking attention to the problem of making roads safe for farm animals, particularly horses. That is a question on which I have found, even amongst groups of farmers, widely divergent views. Some hold that any road surface which contains any percentage of tar is unsuitable for horses and that the only road suitable for horse traffic is the water-bound macadam road. I have investigated and examined various road surfaces and I am inclined to the opinion that a well-constructed modern load with a flat surface and a not too smooth finish is quite suitable for animals and certainly for horses. Undoubtedly, the old tarred roads were very unsuitable and very dangerous. The tendency was to make them with a high centre and put a fairly glossy surface on them, by generous application of tar. That road was not only unsuitable for horses, but also was dangerous for motor traffic. A road which slopes sharply at both sides is highly dangerous. A really flat surface from side to side, of a uniform quality and with a rough finish, would meet the problem effectively. On the ordinary road, unless you intend to make it exceptionally wide, it is impossible to provide a margin at each side sufficient for horse traffic, as any such margin to give any comfort would require to be six feet wide and that six foot margin at each side of the ordinary road is almost out of the question. If careful attention is given to the laying down of our bard surface roads and they are made perfectly flat and not too slippery, they will be quite suitable. It may be necessary to give them attention from time to time, to prevent them from becoming smooth and to cover them from time to time with coarse chipping of the hardest quality.

There is great need now to consider road development and construction and to consider a certain amount of town and village planning. Many of our provincial towns were first erected long before there was any motor or other vehicular traffic and they are completely unsuitable in their lay-out for modern traffic. Even for the comfort and convenience of those who have to reside or do business in those towns and villages, the local authorities should start boldly wherever possible to construct new roads to towns or widen the existing roads and remove culs-de-sac and bottlenecks. There is need for control, to prevent people erecting houses, in the next few years, which will come in the way of progressive development. A great deal of money could probably be saved with a little intelligent planning in the lay-out of our towns and probably it would redound to the advantage of our business people and other inhabitants living in those towns.

In this matter you always come up against small vested interests, and it is the duty of all representatives on urban and county councils to look beyond small vested interests and look into the future, with a view to making their towns and villages better, from the point of view of those who have to live in them, those who have to do business in them and from a national standpoint also, to give them clean, wide streets and a lay-out suitable for good and sound development.

Last in the list of priorities would come amenity schemes of the various kinds urgently necessary. There ought to be, again when materials become available, a big development in the matter of providing playing fields and parish halls in all our villages and towns, and even rural parishes. A matter which I think is of even greater importance is an amenity for the public and particularly for the younger generation — the provision of public swimming pools which would provide our young people with an opportunity of indulging in the healthy and health-giving exercise of swimming, an exercise which is not only good for the health but is very frequently a means of saving life. In a climate such as we unfortunately have, all swimming pools should be covered — probably glass-covered — so that people could become more adept at swimming and more attracted to this pastime which is much more desirable than attending cinemas and indoor amusements of that kind which are not of much benefit to health, whatever mental benefit may be derived from them.

I am very strongly of the opinion that our small towns and villages should each have a fire-fighting unit, which can be quite cheaply provided. A fire-fighting unit capable of being attached to a lorry — a sort of trailer unit — is very desirable in every small town. We frequently have fires not only in small towns but on farmsteads adjacent to them, and it is very difficult to procure help from the cities or large towns. Every village should have its fire-fighting service and it is a matter to which local authorities should give attention.

The Minister was inclined to anticipate criticism with regard to the manner in which local rates have increased over the past number of years and he sought to have his excuses for that increase lodged in advance. He said that the increases in rates were due to schemes which were held up by the war having to be undertaken now, to the increased cost of food for institutions, the increase in the cost of road materials and to the increases in wages and salaries. I hold, and have always held, that we are entitled to good, progressive local services, but I am not sure that all the increased expenditure which has taken place since the County Management Act came into force has been justified. The county offices now are cluttered up with a large number of officials who were not, apparently, required under the old régime.

There is too great a tendency on the part of our younger officials to concentrate on office work. It does not really matter what is being done, in the eyes of many of our younger officials and county managers, so long as the files are kept in order and the correspondence kept going between the county council or urban council and the Custom House. If you raise any matter of local administration, you are told, as you are always told by Government Departments, that the matter is receiving attention. You go back after some weeks to ask how the matter is progressing and you are told it is progressing well, but when you seek some evidence that the matter is making progress, you are presented with a file, and each time you make inquiries, you find that the file is growing bigger and bigger, and that is really all that is done. A little more practical work and a little less of this kind of correspondence would be more in the interest of the ratepayers and would be cheaper.

There is a tendency, not alone amongst the engineers but amongst all branches of the various local services, to sit in the office and keep the books and correspondence right, the idea being that so long as these are right, everything is right, but the local official must keep in dose personal touch with the problems with which he has to deal. The local engineer or road surveyor must be out on the roads with his men, if he wants to get work done. He will not get it done in the office. The official in charge of home assistance must go out and see the people who require assistance, must talk to them and find out what their situation is and what are the circumstances under which they live. That is the real work of a local official. But, instead, there is a tendency to departmentalise the local services to too great an extent and to make them more or less complete second editions of Government Departments in the city. There is no use in accumulating huge files, registers and so on, if you are not getting the practical work done.

I can remember a good many years ago when the roads in rural areas were much better made than they are to-day. A great many of the roads were made by small contractors, and the work of the engineer was simply to travel around and see that these contractors did their jobs. They did them, because they had to do them, and we had better county roads than we have now. Certainly, more material was put into the roads. Now the greater number of roads are being starved for material. Roads which have not been resurfaced and tarred are absolutely starved for maintenance, and that is true of most of the counties in which I have travelled. The old road contractor was compelled to put on plenty of road metal, and, in most cases, the complaint was that they were compelled to put on too much, more than the road was able to take, but the reverse is the position now — the roads are completely starved, with the result, after the recent winter storms, that many of the roads broke up and became impassable quagmires, for the reason that, for the past ten or 12 years, sufficient material was not put into them.

There is room for very considerable economy in the administration of the local services. I believe there is need for the introduction of the contract system on a wider scale than that on which it has been operated during the past five or six years.

I think that in order to have reconstruction carried on on a large scale we will have to attract fairly large contractors to undertake road surfacing. Men with equipment and skill in directing men must be attracted to the work. In this connection also I have often felt that the county surveyor, while lie may be a very highly-skilled man in regard to engineering— the subject in which he has qualified— may not always be a good director or leader of men. A young man coming out of college after having had, perhaps, a brilliant career may know all and everything that is to be known about engineering problems, but he may know very little about the ordinary human problem of how to get men to work, how to encourage them to work and how to settle the little differences which arise in connection with getting work done. There are always a thousand little organisational problems in regard to the direction of teams of men on roads which require a great deal more knowledge than can be acquired in any university.

I am rather interested to note that the Minister is always inclined to revert rather sadly to that piece of legislation which was a matter of controversy some years ago, the Valuation Bill. In one way or another, he always seems to be trying to lead this House back to the idea that that Bill was one of the finest pieces of legislation that was ever introduced into this House. It was a pity that he was not able to convince his colleagues in the Government on that question. I think the Bill was a foolish one. I think that the system of valuation at present is unfair. The Minister's attempt to improve it will only make it worse. The Minister indicated that if the ghost of Sir Bichard Griffith were to return to this earthly sphere he would be surprised to find that his valuations were still in operation. I think that is probably true. He would be surprised, I think, that in modern conditions we have adhered to property valuations at all for the financing of local services. I think if he were alive or if he were to return he would probably advise the Minister for Local Government to have done with that silly and ridiculous system of financing local government administration.

I want to make a last appeal to the Minister not to forget, in completing his housing survey, the inadequate, insufficient and deplorably bad housing conditions under which a large section of our farmers have to live. It is sometimes said that some of those old farm-houses go back to the Stone Age. I would think, judging by the construction of the walls, that they go back to the Mud Age which, apparently, goes back much farther. I think the Minister should introduce some scheme for an investigation of those housing conditions with a view to improvement at an early date.

Some of the members of this House may think, as a result of the very impressive statement made by the Minister in connection with his Department, that at justifies the action of the House here in dividing up and taking away many of the other burdens in connection with the Department. Men who have had experience on public boards have maintained that the Minister should be responsible for housing, roads and for the other amenities mentioned in the Minister's statement. It will take the full time of any one man, especially in present circumstances, to concentrate upon the very important development of roads and the importance of our housing schemes to meet the requirements of the country. While we are on the subject of roads I wish to state that I agree that the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary do wonderful propaganda work in connection with the Safety First campaign. But I maintain that all the films and speeches for which the Parliamentary Secretary and the Department may be responsible will not come to anything if the Department itself neglects the principal work that I mention it should do. When we were talking about roads we only mentioned roads of the public bodies. We overlooked the roads passing through the villages and the towns in the counties. We have made no provision whatsoever for paths in the villages and in the towns. I have drawn the attention of the county manager in my own area, time after time, to the danger from passing motor-cars to people, especially large numbers, when they are either coming out of the churches or going along to their homes walking in the centre of the road. I represent a tourist county and I can say that when one meets motor-cars that have powerful headlights one is dazzled. The people would not walk on the roads if there were paths. There is also the question of obstructions by tar barrels, etc. I appeal to the Minister to try to insist that when grants are made available for trunk roads in the area some system will be devised whereby the paths will be made equally attractive for the people to walk on as the tarred roads. There is no use in taking sods off the paths and putting gravel or stones down instead because the people are unable to walk on such a surface and, as a result, they will walk on the roads and thus be a danger to themselves and to the public. I only hope in mentioning this now the Department will take strong action and see that the Safety First programme is carried out. I travel a lot in my own constituency and I am preaching on every county council the urgent necessity of repairing the paths, but so far no action whatsoever has been taken.

The Parliamentary Secretary has pointed out that the managers are the servants of the council. Of course, the Parliamentary Secretary makes that statement without any practical experience. I quote an instance where the Government representatives on the county council have shown the manager the Order set out by the Minister — the powers and duty of local representatives. The co-operation of the manager is required. The manager puts the blame on the Department of Local Government when it suits him. When he receives a resolution unanimously passed by the county council— as has happened quite recently in two cases when a member of the Minister's own Party drew his attention to co-operation — he refuses to carry out these orders. He remains silent and the Minister and nobody else has power, to interfere. I shall give the Minister an instance. The manager recentily dealt with the claim of the urban council to have a reserved function in connection with the granting of leases. He was without previous experience. He pointed out that the council have no power to grant leases, as they had always done. He had the matter referred to the law agent to the council. The law agent reported back that it was the council's function to grant leases. Not satisfied with that, the manager sent on the case to a lawyer in Dublin whom he mentioned himself. What happened? Afterwards, he submitted to the council the bill he paid to the lawyer for giving legal opinion to himself. That is our experience of the Act.

It is sometimes a question of putting the blame on the Minister. A temporary employee was brought in without an advertisement. A move was made last year to make him permanent. Some of the councillors objected. We knew no more until we found an order made giving this temporary man permanent employment and increasing his salary retrospectively from April last. We are told that that was done on the advice of the Minister's Department. There was no examination; no advertisement was issued; nobody got a chance to compete. And we are told that this was done on the instruction of the Department. I doubt that. I believe that representations were made to the Department. Of course, this man joined a certain political organisation for a few months. He tried to work it that way. Has the Minister or his Department inquired into that case? He was in the organisation only a few months. Then he left. Why was he refused a passport to get across to England? How did he go and how did he come back? What happened 12 months ago? Was there any communication with the Minister for Justice? This individual has been appointed permanently. His salary has been made retrospective and the councillors are not consulted. I drew attention to the matter time after time.

Why did you not resign?

We may do that. We shall decide about that at our next meeting. All the councillors are satisfied that it is useless to be there. I am glad that the Minister is to see that repairs to cottages will be maintained. It is a good thing that the Minister is taking an interest in that. I propose to forward him a letter which I received from a tenant some time ago. Owing to the condition of the cottage, he was proposing to refuse to pay his rent. I advised him to pay his rent and to make a report. He writes to say that he carried out my instructions to pay the rent but that there were better windows in a cow shed than in his house, so far as keeping out draughts was concerned. He says that the council should be ashamed of themselves to own such a house and refuse to repair it. Of course, the council gets blamed, although the council knows nothing about it. We are told that the matter is receiving attention. At one time, if repairs were not carried out, the local representative would be present to ask for an explanation at the first council meeting. Here is a poor man who proposed to discontinue paying rent, but who paid his rent on my instructions, and whose house is still without repair. Portion of the glass was out of the window when he got the house and he expresses the opinion that it is a wonder the council pay for a job before they see that it is completed.

On the question of roads, I ask the Minister to look at the minutes of the county council for the 14th April. During February, there was a serious blizzard and snowstorm in County Wicklow. Public representatives drew the manager's attention to the position of people in Monestown, Roundwood and the hilly areas but no action was taken. A letter came in that the overseers had dismissed a man because there was no work for him during the snow. The matter got serious and came up at a meeting at the end of February. The serious plight of the people was brought to the attention of the official concerned. It was at the end of March a member of the Government Party, secretary of the parish council, sent an S.0.S. to the manager to send out his engineers for God's sake and do something. The county council considered the matter and made recommendations. They were told that everything was being done. The manager, in a report on the 14th April, states that the Local Government Department, as I expected they would, gave him every assistance and that he got the use of bulldozers to try to rescue the people in those areas.

To try to counteract attacks made on the administration, a letter was read at the county council meeting from a very respectable man in the area concerned practically congratulating the staff. That is why I ask the Minister to look up the minutes of the 14th April. He will observe in those minutes a letter signed by an individual in the area concerned. The Minister would not throw so many bouquets in similar circumstances. This was to counteract the action of the secretary of the parish council and everybody else concerned. That man is the owner of lorries. After three or four weeks, during which he had a visit from the engineer, three lorries owned by that man were employed on the road. No tenders were asked. Other men who were owners of lorries were not given a job. I ask the Minister to form his own impression as to why that individual signed, that letter for the engineer and manager. I leave it to himself to form an opinion when he investigates the matter.

As regards housing, I should like to give praise where praise is due. I praise the engineering section of the Local Government Department in connection with the layout which I — have seen in Wicklow. I have experience of various building schemes. I saw the layout in Wicklow town, with the improvements made in the Minister's Department, and I say that it is a credit to all concerned. There are playgrounds and parks provided for and land is made available to provide men with plots near their houses in the event of their being unemployed. That scheme is worthy of consideration by other public bodies. I have long experience in this matter and this is one of the best plans I have seen. The Government have justified themselves in this particular case in helping out the public bodies and I wish to congratulate those concerned on the assistance given. There is criticism of the delay in connection with housing. It takes some time to acquire land. If you acquire land in the rural areas, you must have inquiries and investigations. From the time you initiate a scheme, with the usual inquiry and arbitration proceedings, until you are in a position to advertise it will be two years. In an urban area, even if you acquire land by agreement, some delay will take place. Even in cases of agreement, 12 months will elapse before you are in a position to advertise for tenders. That may be the reason why some members talk about unnecessary delay. I am prepared to criticise when criticism is necessary.

I was surprised to hear the Minister say that there are some unemployed people who will not take plots. In my town I know that there is not a plot available. All the unemployed there are working plots and I must say that the means test is being I interpreted in a liberal way to enable, people, to work these plot. Although the Minister referred mainly to the unemployed, during this year and, the years to come we require all the food we can possibly produce. I therefore suggest, as I suggested before, that a similar arrangement should be made for widows who have children to support as is made for the men who are working plots. In my area, people had to purchase plots and till them for some widows. When they are in receipt of a widows' allowance I think these widows are as much entitled to get facilities for producing food for themselves, and their children as anybody else. I think, therefore, that they should be given the same concessions as are given to unemployed men, so that they will not have to pay 10/- for a plot and purchase their own seeds. Every public representative should do everything possible in his own area to get the unemployed and others to avail of this scheme to provide food for themselves and their families.

Deputy Cogan referred to the necessity for a grant to enable small farmers to improve their dwellings. When trying to secure land on which to build labourers' cottages, I was surprised in many cases to see the hovels in which the owners of the land were living from whom we were going to take half an acre on which to build a good house for an agricultural labourer. There should be some scheme to give assistance, by loan or otherwise, to these small farmers to build houses for themselves, such as are provided for the agricultural labourers. They have not the money to repair or improve their houses, even with the grant that is at present available. In many cases, the houses are not worth repairing. I have seen many of these houses with half of the roof thatched and the other half covered with galvanised iron. Yet we were taking half an acre of ground from these people on which to build a good labourer's cottage. It often surprised me that there was not some scheme under which they would be able to provide a comfortable home for themselves.

I think the scheme for providing an extra room for tubercular patients is a very good one and I have not met any public representative who objected to it. I do not think there is anything in the suggestion that such a room would be called a consumptive room. People; when they come back from a sanatorium, will have a room for themselves instead of having to go back into the house with other members of the family, and they will be able to carry out the instructions they received in the sanatorium. That will be a great help to them and obviate any danger to the public. I think it is the duty of every public man to do everything he possibly can to see that these rooms are provided.

The Parliamentary Secretary says that the county manager is the servant of the council. When the Wicklow County Council receive an order from the Department to increase the salaries of officials much more than the manager had increased them and also to give the road workers an increase and to make the increases payable from the 1st January, the officials were paid the increase by the manager from the 1st January but the road workers were not. The manager refused to carry out the wishes of the council, although he is supposed to be the servant of the council. If the Parliamentary Secretary will inquire into the working of the public boards he will realise that, although the managers are supposed to be the servants of these boards, once the boards have passed the estimate they have no further control over the managers; the managers are at liberty to do what they wish. Officials will tell you that they do not care a snap of the fingers about public representatives so long as they have the manager to deal with. I do not want public representatives to interfere with officials. But, so long as you have public representatives, they should be able to see that the officials are doing their duty. They should not be told, as we were told, that they have no control over the officials. We were told by one official that four members of a public board had no right to inquire into the way work was being done in an area and report on it to the manager. This official defied us. If that attitude is to be adopted, I cannot see any man with any public, record spending two or three hours of his time once a month attending a meeting of a public board.

The Minister will say that the manager's orders are brought before the board. There are ways of getting over that. There will be other matters on the agenda to take up the time of the council and the consideration of the manager's orders is generally the last item to be considered when members want to go away. Unless the Act is amended, I cannot see public men in future wasting their time attending the meetings of public boards. When members of a public board pass a resolution unanimously and point to the Minister's statement as to the powers of public representatives and are flouted by the manager, I cannot see these public representatives agreeing to remain on a public board. I was advising them to adopt the old Sinn Féin policy of boycotting the public boards until the manager becomes reasonable, takes a commonsense view of things, and tries to meet the wishes of public representatives.

I am perturbed at public officials with, say, £800 a year holding three or four jobs under public bodies. They are supposed to give their whole time to one body, but they have three jobs and they get increases from each of the public boards of which they are officials. They also get extra clerks paid by one public body to look after the work they are doing for other public bodies. The sooner the Minister amends that Act or gives public representatives some power the better it will be for all concerned. I would prefer to be dealing with a Department, where we could make our criticisms and come out openly. While we may disagree sometimes with the policy of the Department, we have always found the officials helpful and anxious to take the commonsense view and to meet our wishes. But at the present time public representatives have not much opportunity of coming in contact with the Department. You are not told anything about what is happening unless you get some information in an indirect way. Then, again, some officials might be accused of giving you information and those officials have to be saved from attack. That is the position as we see it and, if the Minister has any doubts on this matter, let him look, over the minutes of the Wicklow County Council for the 14th April.

Certain men are granted big salaries and they are holding jobs that boys and girls leaving school would be capable of holding and for which they might get £50 or £52 a year. It is most unfair that men holding big jobs should try to retain these small jobs and deprive others of a livelihood. They do not need these little jobs and they are not pensionable jobs. How can they say they devote their whole time to one job if they hold two or three other jobs in connection with other public boards? It is not part of their contracts and I ask the Minister to inquire into what is going on.

I know that the medical officer of health is not always correct in allocating houses, but at the same time he is in a good position to decide on tenants. The manager says he is not bound by the decision of the medical officer. I believe the medical officer is the better judge. The medical officer, in conjunction with the men on the board, would have local knowledge as to the most suitable agricultural worker for a cottage and they are in a better position to select good tenants. I am aware of cases in the Rathnew area where we had to protest to the manager over the selection of tenants for cottages. A man might go into the county home with his family and, after spending months there, he would be given a house, say, in the Rathnew area, as against the claims of men who would be very respectable tenants. The man in the county home might be a waster, but the manager would maintain that it was better to give him a house than to keep himself and his family in the county home. There are some people who got houses for that reason.

I had to protest against one man getting a house. He put his wife and family in the county home. Luckily enough, before the House was finally allocated that man was convicted. Later on he was an applicant for another house and the people in the area had to protest against it. I will forward the Minister particulars lot another case where a house was given away without the knowledge of the medical officer. I have in mind also the case of a wealthy individual applying for a house against a poor boy who did four or five years in the Local Defence Force. This poor fellow's wife came out of a mental home and she had to go a distance of 20 miles to live with her mother. The husband had his child living with him and he was in lodgings. A man with £5 a week who came back from England got this house. I will send details, of that case to the Minister also.

Whatever he may have said against public bodies when he was speaking on the Managerial Act — and probably a lot could have been said — I do not think that so much can be said against them to-day. We have numbers of new men with very little experience refusing to co-operate. There could be more said against the present régime than could be said against the old régime. I have known many good officials under the old régime. I was preparing a case — Deputy Brennan may know about it — in connection with the wages of workers employed on direct labour. The federation of building employers put up an argument that certain wages were being paid by the hoard of health. To meet that case in the Labour Court I sent a letter asking for the number of unskilled men employed by the board of health and the wages paid them. I also asked for the number of skilled men and the number of officials engaged. That was in September. Again in November I sent a reminder pointing out that the Labour Court would be holding a conference very soon and that I was anxious to be supplied with the information. I got the usual reply. In March I sent a final letter asking to be supplied with the information I had asked for in September — the number of men employed, the number of cottages erected by direct labour, the wages paid and the number of officials charged against each cottage. I have not yet received that information.

The Minister can, in these circumstances, understand the feelings of a public representative trying to get information. It is not actually refused, but nevertheless he is denied it. The official very nicely indicated that he was sending the document to another Department. Anyhow, I have not yet got that information. The Minister can appreciate the feelings of representatives elected by the people when they find themselves treated in this way under the Managerial Act. The sooner that Act is amended the better for all concerned. It will have to be amended if you want public representatives to give their time in the public service. When a resolution is passed unanimously by a public body advocating a certain course of action, one would expect some explanation from the official charged with the responsibility for carrying it out why he is unable to do so.

I am glad that the Minister is taking a special interest in relation to roads and houses. I hope he will make some provision for the paths I have mentioned. I hope the scheme we have had for housing will be given to other public bodies. If that is done, I believe that within 12 months there will be less room for complaint. I shall forward to the Minister the letter I received from one man about the state of his cottage. I hope that for the time being some of our county managers will not endeavour to act as dictators and that they will work in co-operation with the representatives of the people until such time as the Act is amended. I can say I never was in favour of that Act and, in so far as I can do it, I will try to prove to the people that that Act is wrong and is not in their interests. I will try to prove to the ratepayers that it is in their interests not to have managers. Our rates have gone up and we have nothing in return but extra officials. If the Minister will look up the returns in connection with Wicklow courthouse, he will find that we have now double the number of clerks that we had a few years ago and yet there are no extra services being given. All the time the unfortunate ratepayers have to pay the piper.

Mr. P. Burke

In County Dublin we have not the same trouble with our county commissioner as my friend Deputy Everett has in County Wicklow. As a matter of fact, the county commissioner in County Dublin is only too anxious to seek advice and co-operate with public representatives in every possible way. Even during the recent snowstorm in the Dublin mountains he left no stone unturned to see that the roads would be cleared. Every unemployed man in the district —indeed, every man who could be employed in that area — was put out on the roads so that everybody concerned in the mountains would not remain snowbound. I am very happy to be able to say that about our county commissioner; he has been most helpful.

The Poulaphouca water scheme has been promised for a long time. In north County Dublin areas have been built up and in some of them there are factories, but so far we have no water or sewerage scheme. I know that plans have been formulated to bring the Poulaphonca water scheme to north County Dublin. It has been a long drawn-out affair and I am aware that the Minister has been doing his best about it. I wish he would make fresh efforts to expedite this matter. I believe a decision was also come to to build a reservoir somewhere around Finglas. The position is now becoming really serious because in districts such as Santry a number of houses are being erected and there are some factories there. We have more factories in Finglas.

Again, in areas such as Donabate and Lusk, which have a considerable population, there is no proper water supply or sewerage system. The town planning officers are objecting to the erection of further houses in districts where there is not a proper water supply or sewerage. I would urge on the Minister that he should try to expedite the carrying out of the scheme to extend the Poulaphouca water supply over north County Dublin as a whole. There are also areas in the south of the county, especially in the neighbourhood of Newcastle, which are in need of schemes of this character. Of course, arrangements have already been made to extend the water supply to Milltown, but there are other areas in the vicinity of Clondalkin in which there are many houses which are badly in need of water supplies and sewerage facilities. I might mention in that connection Tallaght area, another populous district, which, while it is very near Dublin, has still no proper water supply or sewerage system.

With regard to housing, I was very pleased to learn that housing schemes are to be expedited in County Dublin in the near future. We are faced with a very serious problem in the county in regard to housing because not alone have we to cater for people resident in the area, but we are up against the problem of people coming from the city who are trying to get houses in the county to the detriment of the claims of people already living there. Of course, it is only natural that a tendency of that kind should develop on the brink of a big city. I should like to see public utility societies and private individuals, extending their activities into the county, even if it were only to acquire potential building sites, until such time as the town planning officers have their schemes ready. Even in areas where there is no proper water supply or sewerage schemes it might be possible to carry on with septic tanks. The county commissioner is doing his utmost to expedite housing schemes in various areas. I was speaking to him yesterday and he hopes to have some contracts placed by next week. The position as regards overcrowding, especially in Balbriggan, is becoming very serious. Sometimes we have three or four families crowded into two or three rooms in a house. I welcomed the scheme under which provision was made for the erection of an extra room in a house to accommodate tubercular patients and I should like to see more of my constituents availing of that scheme, especially in areas where there is overcrowding, and in cases where sanatorium accommodation cannot be obtained for the tubercular patient.

I was delighted to hear that the Baldoyle houses formerly owned by the Dublin Corporation are to be handed over to the county council, and that a long-standing grievance in that respect will be remedied in the near future. Owing to the shortage of materials during the emergency a large number of council cottages fell into disrepair. A number of these cottages were built in swampy areas or in places — I do not like to say it — in which they should never have been built. Their situation is inconvenient for schools, for churches, for bus services and various other amenities. It is a pity that cottages were ever built in such places because the occupants are, at a big disadvantage owing to their, backward situation. The only thing we can do is to try to provide them with as many amenities as possible. A number of cottages are at the moment absolutely derelict. The county commissioner is doing his best but again he is faced with a very big job in that respect. I think that a special grant would be required to put these cottages in repair and I should like if the Minister could see his way to provide such a grant because otherwise these repairs will entail a heavy expenditure for the ratepayers.

I should like also to refer to the housing schemes in another portion of my constituency, namely, that portion of the Terenure area that lies in County Dublin — Drimnagh and Crumlin. While I admit that housing was the first priority, I should like to bring under the notice of the Minister the fact that many of the people housed in these areas are deprived of the amenities which residents in other areas enjoy. If they wish to avail of such amenities, they have to travel some distance.

I refer to amenities such as libraries, halls and parks. If parks were provided in these areas, mothers with small children and youngsters after school hours, could avail of them as playgrounds instead of having to travel miles across the city in search of such facilities elsewhere. I understand that the corporation has plans under consideration to deal with the matter but these facilities are long overdue. In view of the fact that there is a probability of the city being further extended into the country, I should like that consideration should be given to matters of this kind in future town planning because it is a matter of vital importance. I welcome the announcement that swimming pools will at some future date be provided in that area.

There is one other matter which I should like to mention though I admit that it could hardly be regarded as a priority scheme at the moment. We hear a good deal of talk about the possibility of keeping people on the land but I believe that if we are to keep people in rural Ireland, whether they be farmers' sons or workers, in addition to ensuring that they will receive a decent wage, it will be necessary to provide some social centre in each district. I refer to centres such as parish halls. I know that it is a big problem to provide a parish hall in every district and I am not making a priority claim for such buildings but, at some future time when our housing needs have been satisfactorily dealt with, I hope the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to the question of the erection of parish halls which are really essential. We have in some parishes energetic parish committees who have been able to build halls but in a number of parishes in County Dublin there are no halls of any kind. The people there have no place to meet and they are unable to have the usual social reunions which, from time to time, make life so pleasant in country districts. These halls would be of great benefit in encouraging the formation of dramatic societies, debating societies and other useful local bodies of that character. At present, the people resident in these districts have to go elsewhere in search of relaxation. I feel that a scheme of that character is worthy of consideration.

I welcome what the Minister had to say on houses from the architectural point of view. In travelling through the country, county council cottages remind one of a rubber stamp. They all practically present the same appearance. The Minister's proposal to introduce some variety in the plans for the houses to be built in the future is to be welcomed. It is something that wanted to be done. In the County Dublin we have a number of stagnant pools in front of houses. They present a most objectionable appearance. In my opinion they should be piped and closed in. Some work of that kind has already been done, but more of it would be welcomed. There are many people in need of financial assistance in the way of loans for house building. If the present loans were increased it would probably encourage quite a number of people to build houses. The poor man who is in need of a house cannot afford to go to the building societies for a loan. These societies serve a very useful purpose in helping people with small salaries, but the poor man requires more help than he is getting. Therefore, I suggest that loans to the people I speak of should be increased.

In the County Dublin we have a number of laneways which lead from the main roads to the seaside. We have been trying for quite a long time to get them taken over by the county commissioner, but we have not succeeded so far. Some of them are in a very bad condition. It would be well if they could be taken over so that they might be availed of to a greater extent by visitors who come out from the city to visit our seaside resorts. I hope, in view of the fact that the County Dublin is recognised as a tourist centre, that the Minister will see that something is done about these laneways. There is also the question of the extension of electricity to council cottages. That is a thing that we in the County Dublin have been up against for some time.

The Minister has no responsibility for electricity schemes.

Mr. Burke

No, but provision was made whereby the Dublin County Council would give a grant for public lighting along the roads. I want to ask the Minister to make provisions whereby a grant would be given for the lighting of council cottages. That is one of our grievances in the County Dublin and has often been discussed. Numerous representations have been made about it, and I should like if it could be looked into. Deputy Everett referred to footpaths. We have some very good ones in the County Dublin but at the game time we have others that are neglected. The main roads are very good, but now that so much traffic is coming back on the roads I believe it is a matter of urgent necessity to have oar footpaths improved.

There is also the question of bog roads in County Dublin. We are anxious to encourage, as far as possible, private producers and others who are cutting turf on the bogs adjacent to the city. Quite a number of people in County Dublin and in the city are doing so at present. They are cutting supplies for themselves on the County Dublin and County Wicklow bogs. Last week, when I was up in Glencullen, it was brought to my notice that the point at which a number of people are cutting turf there is three-quarters of a mile away from the roadway. Turf-cutting is a national problem at the moment, and I am sure the Minister will be sympathetic in trying to do all he can to extend the roads into the bogs where the people are cutting the turf. We also have a number of people cutting turf at Castlekelly. I know, of course, that Bord na Móna and the county council are doing their best, but this road problem is a serious one for those who are cutting turf in the Dublin mountains. Their efforts should get every encouragement and passable roads should be provided so that lorries may be able to take the turf away from the area in which it has been saved.

I wish to thank the Minister for the courtesy I received from him during the year. He was most helpful in regard to the many representations that I had to make to him. There has been a big improvement in the County Dublin as regards the number of public conveniences that have been provided, especially in many areas along by the sea coast. I hope the Minister will consider the possibility of introducing, in the near future, something that will help to make parish life and rural life more entertaining, and in this connection I suggest to him the idea of parish halls.

The Minister proposes to set up a number of committees comprised of experts for the purpose of advising him on many problems of local government which have a bearing on the daily lives of the people, problems relating to roads, sewerage schemes, water supply schemes and so on. I hope he will do his utmost to get the best possible expert advice that he can, even though that may mean going outside the country for it. The country is entitled to the best service possible and it should be the duty of the Minister and his Department to see that that service is provided.

There is one item in the Minister's Estimate of which I heartily approve, that is, the item of £4,000 for the purpose of encouraging architects and engineers to submit suitable designs for housing schemes. Personally, I consider that there is a deadly monotony in the housing schemes at the present time. There is a sameness, a drabness and an almost complete lack of architectural beauty about the majority of them. They are neither a credit to the country nor to the architects or engineers who designed them. I know from personal experience that they offend the aesthetic taste of some of our visitors because quite recently a foreign journalist wanted to know if we had no architects or engineers capable of designing cottages of a more artistic character for our labouring classes. He was referring to our labourers' cottages.

I am glad that the Minister has tackled that problem. It appears to me that there should be variety at least about our housing schemes. I would suggest that there should be a different design for the housing schemes in every county or in every two or three counties. The housing schemes which we do embark on should reflect to some extent the character, ability and aesthetic taste of the people. Nobody can claim that the housing schemes which have been constructed so far reflect the taste or character of our people. Now that the Minister has tackled that problem, I do hope that he will encourage as far as possible local engineers, and local architects, because most of us know of young engineers and young architects who have ideas on the subject of housing and who, if given an opportunity, would be capable of submitting designs which would probably meet with the approval of the Minister and his Department.

When I refer to design I am not referring merely to external design. I am referring also to internal design. There is certainly room for vast improvement in the internal lay-out of the majority of the houses built under our various schemes. In many of them there is a waste of space. They do not suit the needs and requirements of the people inhabiting them. Very often the staircases are placed in the wrong position; they are cold and draughty; and in many instances they indicate that there was not that rigid supervision which one would expect in a scheme carried out under the Department of Local Government.

Housing was the first subject the Minister dealt with. Prudence and common sense would dictate that we should go slow with building construction until price levels fall somewhat but the demand for houses is so keen and the scarcity so great that the Minister is compelled to respond to public demand. In view of the very high cost of building materials and in view of the fact that that condition is likely to remain for a long time to come, it appears to me that the time has arrived when the Minister should recast the financial provisions of his housing legislation. He did indicate to-day that he proposes to introduce a Housing Bill in the near future. He gave no indication to the Dáil of the nature of the proposals which he intends to embody in that Bill. But, certainly, if the Minister does not in-prove the finances of the present housing legislation there will lie an incubus on the ratepayers for many years to come.

Amongst other things, the Minister referred to the high rates. I do not intend to refer to rates at the moment, but I am trying to bear in mind the impact of these high rates and, generally, the very high cost and the number of schemes which local authorities are responsible for at the present time. If the Minister goes ahead with his housing schemes, as he is bound to do in view of the public demand and the public need for houses, it is likely that the liabilities of local authorities will continue to increase and the incubus of the grants which they have to make out of the rates in order to bring the rents of these houses to an economic level will be so great that in time it will have very dangerous repercussions on the public bodies and on the ratepayers as a whole.

I am sorry that the Minister did not indicate in the course of his statement to-day that he was setting up a committee for the purpose of examining into the whole question of the financing of these housing schemes because it appears to me, in the present circumstances of the country, that is one at the most important subjects the Minister has to deal with. It certainly should be examined by an expert committee composed of men who have experience of housing construction, who are fully alive to the circumstances which exist to-day and which may exist, especially in relation to supplies of essential materials, in the years to come.

I mentioned a moment ago that many of our housing schemes are a burden on the local authorities. The earlier housing schemes — I am referring now to schemes embarked on in 1933, 1934 and 1935 — were rather hastily constructed. There was not, at least in my opinion, adequate supervision, with the result that the cost of repairs is certainly well above the normal in the majority of cases. Despite the experience of those early years, the supervision over the housing schemes constructed or erected in recent years has not been as keen and as rigid as it should be and I would submit to the Minister that he should see to it, when housing schemes are embarked on, that there is adequate supervision and that there is understanding with the local authority that is responsible for the schemes that they will be properly supervised, that the engineers in charge are competent and able to see that the work is carried out literally in accordance with the original specifications. That is not always the case and the result is that when one is speaking to the tenants of many of these housing schemes, as most Deputies have occasion to do, there are complaints about bad chimneys, defective staircases, bad floors, draughts from windows, and so on.

At this stage of our experience of building schemes such complaints should not be so general as they are. Certainly, we should have learned by the experience gained over the last 20 years, and at this stage we should be able to construct houses in such fashion that at least the most common type of complaints would be removed. That is not the case. I maintain that until there is better organisation for the supervision of housing construction under the Department of Local Government, there is not likely to be much improvement in the type of house erected. It is grossly unfair to the tenants that they should have to live in such houses, and to the taxpayers and ratepayers that they should have to bear the cost of the extra repairs which have to be carried out.

Deputy Burke referred to a type of person who has not been catered for hitherto, or, at least, only to a very limited extent, in our housing legislation. Admittedly, some of our better class houses have been constructed in towns and cities throughout the country, but the number is small and provision has been made only for a very small number. I am referring to clerks and people of that class, who cannot get houses at present. When the Minister is preparing now legislation, he should bear those people in mind and should make arrangements whereby houses will be erected for them as well as for the working classes.

The Minister referred to town planning rather briefly in the course of his statement. As I understand it, town planning at present is confined entirely to Dublin and some of the larger cities. There are three stages in town planning. First of all, it is necessary for the public body to adopt the Town Planning Acts and the Minister has to be informed that they have done so; then a skeleton town plan has to be prepared and submitted to the Minister; then a more elaborate scheme has to be prepared and submitted to the Minister. All that takes a very long time. So far as I am aware, most of the public bodies have submitted such schemes to the Department, but they are still lying with the Department and the local officers concerned are not aware what has happened to them or whether it is the intention of the Minister to approve of them.

What is happening in various towns throughout the country is that some of the beautiful and attractive entrances are being spoiled by the type of house erected there in recent times. I am thinking of one town in particular. You enter it from a height which commands a magnificent view. At the entrance, all types and varieties of houses have been erected and they have succeeded in spoiling what is, in my opinion, one of the most magnificent views in the country. The Minister should hasten his examination of the town planning schemes submitted by the various public bodies and let them know whether they are free to give full effect to those plans or not.

I am perfectly certain that, if some of the local authorities were free to give effect to the plans they have submitted, they would not permit some of the atrocities which have been erected at the entrances, or in close proximity to the entrances, to some of our towns.

I admit that town planning is a difficult problem and likely to be a very costly one. I suppose it may be many hundreds of years hence before the plans forumlated and prepared by various public bodies will be made fully effective. They may never be made fully effective. At all events, it is an effort to do something at present to assist in beautifying the environments of our cities and towns. I am certain that the people responsible in local administration will see to it that engineers, architects and others observe, at least in a general way, the requirements of the Town Planning Act. For the country's sake and for the sake of its appearance—and the Minister himself, I am sure, is more concerned about that aspect of things than I am— he should speed up his examination of this whole problem of town planning.

In regard to the unemployed allotments, I may have misunderstood the Minister's statement, but I took it from what he said that it was obligatory on local authorities to provide the tenants of those allotments with seeds implements and so on. I was not aware that it was obligatory on the local authorities to provide all that— with seeds, yes; but not with implements. I know one particular town where some tenants refused to take the allotments because they would not get the implements.

They get the use of them.

The local authority maintained that some of them were provided with implements some years previously and have not accounted for them. I agree with the Minister that there is a grave disparity between the number of allotments actually rented by tenants and the number of people on the unemployed register. It is a matter that needs investigation. Some of the tenants have made very good use of those plots, but in other cases they have not. That depends a lot on the training, inclination, taste and aptitude of the people concerned. Where the return has not been satisfactory, it is probably due to human weakness of one kind or another. The scheme as a whole has worked reasonably well, probably as well as it could be expected to work, in all the circumstances. It was designed to meet an abnormal situation and probably it has worked as satisfactorily as most of the other emergency schemes on which the Government had to embark.

It is agreed that the roads undoubtedly deteriorated very seriously during the war years. The blizzard in the early months of this year helped to damage them still further and it will take an enormous sum of money to bring them back to their pre-war condition. It will take some years to achieve that, as it is not possible at present to obtain the equipment. Some equipment can be obtained, but most of the heavy equipment is unobtainable, and it may be another two or three years before it is available. The Minister has issued an edict, I understand, that these roads must be brought back into repair in a period of two years. I understood from a certain county engineer in the early months of this year that, according to the terms of a letter received from the Minister, it was incumbent on him to bring those roads back into their original state of repair within a period of two or three years. It appears to me that that was a most unreasonable demand. I am not looking at it from the standpoint of the amount of money involved, but rather from the practical point of view. The engineers or public bodies concerned cannot hope to bring back those roads into their pre-war state unless they are able to get the heavy equipment necessary to do the steam-rolling and repair work.

The Minister should have allowed a reasonable period and I suggest that a reasonable period would have been five, six, seven or even eight years: and the cost of doing this work should have been spread over that period. After all, the main trunk roads are still in a very good state of repair. During the whole of the emergency, the county engineers and local authorities responsible kept them up to a very good average standard and they have not deteriorated to any great extent. Some of the main roads and certain by-roads have deteriorated to a very much greater extent. I suggest to the Minister, in all seriousness, that he is perhaps rushing a shade too fast. The load on the ratepayers and the taxpayers is heavy enough and he should try to make it as light as possible for them.

One of the committees he proposes to set up is to deal with this question of the resurfacing of roads and presumably that committee is being set up in response to numerous complaints from people in all parts of the country about cattle losses. I do not know that the most expert committee you can possibly get together will be able to devise a scheme which will obviate such losses. There is no doubt they will probably succeed in devising some scheme, which will reduce considerably these losses, but to prevent these losses completely is entirely out of the question. However, unlike Deputy Cogan, I am not an amateur road-maker, and I do not propose to dilate on the subject, seeing that an expert committee is to examine the whole problem. In some counties, the engineers acted very wisely. For a great many years past, they left a suitable margin for horse traffic and I think that the losses of animals in these counties were relatively small. In other counties, it was not so, but, on the whole, I think that, in recent years in any event, the losses have been reduced rather substantially.

There is one type of road to which I want to refer — what is called a cul-de-sac road. The rumour has got abroad that the Minister may be introducing some road legislation in the near future, and I ask him to be good enough to bear in mind that quite a number of people live on cul-de-sac roads. According to existing legislation, local authorities cannot carry out any repairs to these roads. So far as I am aware, it is the Minister's intention to spend an enormous amount of money on the trunk and main roads. If rumour is correct, we are to have magnificent motor highways and so on, but the ordinary man is entitled to consideration as well as the tourist who will be moving along those high-class roads. Many small farmers live on cul-de-sac roads, and I suggest that it is the Minister's duty to cater for thee small farmers living on these back roads as well as for the people who move in motor cars along our trunk roads.

The Parliamentary Secretary has undoubtedly done a lot of very useful work in making the people conscious of the need for exercising care when walking on the roads or driving in motor cars on the roads. There is no doubt that, during the war years when there was practically no motor traffic, people developed rather careless habits and a habit once developed takes a very long time to eradicate; but carelessness on the roads is not confined exclusively to the pedestrians. There are careless motorists on the roads, too, and it is the duty of the Minister to see that the regulations relating to motor traffic are rigidly enforced by the Guards. There are still quite a number of road hogs, and, on occasions, these road hogs do not get the justice they deserve. One meets that type of individual on every road in the country and it is that type of individual who, I suggest, is the real danger on the roads. In time, the pedestrian will become fully conscious of the danger. He will soon become quite conscious of the fact that the emergency is over and the motor car is back again, and he will avoid danger to the very best of his ability.

Another committee which the Minister proposes to set up is a committee to deal with water supplies. There are very many parts of the country in which there is an acute scarcity of water, especially during the summer months. I agree entirely with the Minister's remark that it is not possible to give a piped water supply to all parts of the country — the cost would be stupendous, so huge that one could not contemplate it for a moment — but something can be done, at all events, to assist people in these areas by helping to provide suitable equipment in the shape of pumps, and so on. Many pumps have been erected throughout this country in recent years which are quite valueless. I do not know whether the Minister's engineers insist on the use of a certain standard type of pump, but, if they do, some of the pumps elected in recent years throughout the country are not up to the standard specified by the engineers of the Department. I suggest that this is a matter which should be investigated by the engineering members of the engineering staff in order to ensure that local authorities, when ordering pumps, will get the right type and that the pump will bear a guarantee that it will discharge the functions for which it is erected. I do not know what else the Minister can do in the circumstances, but, as a committee is to investigate the problem, there is no use wasting time in discussing the matter any further.

The Minister put forward a number of reasons for the high rates which the country has to bear at present. The first was increased wages and the second the cost of clothing, roads, machinery, equipment and so on; but, even before the cost of clothing began to soar and even before the cost of machinery and equipment began to soar, the rates began to soar. Each year consistently since the present Government took control, the rates have gone up, because each year the Minister — not this Minister but his predecessors, and this Minister is responsible for some of the evils — insisted on local authorities making provision for charges which, in my opinion, the rates should not be asked to bear at all but which should properly be borne by the central Exchequer. This year the Minister insisted on the rates bearing certain charges for the repair of roads. It was all included in this year's Estimate. Some members of local authorities protested and said that the charge should be spread over a certain number of years, but the Minister was following the bad tradition established by his predecessors. Each year they insisted on charges being added to the rates— charges for stamping, for relief works and for employment schemes of one kind or another — which were never charges on the rates prior to that and which, in my opinion, should not be borne by the rates at all but by the central Exchequer. As Deputy Blowick said, there is no prospect of the rates coming down in the future. The prospect is that the rates will continue to boar year after year, until eventually there is such a reaction that the Minister will have to sit up and take notice, but until that violent reaction does come, I do not see any sign of any reform on the part of the Minister or the Government.

There is no use in the Minister blaming it on valuation. This is the red herring the Minister introduces as an excuse. He has no intention of introducing a Valuation Bill. There was talk years ago about a Valuation Bill, but there is no use in his indulging in that hypocritical talk about valuation in which he indulged to-day when he has not the slightest intention of altering the valuations.

Valuation is not the cause of the rate increases. The Minister knows perfectly well what the real causes are. Undoubtedly the emergency was responsible for certain increases. These are legitimate increases but, apart altogether from the emergency, there were other increases which were, from the ratepayers' point of view, entirely illegitimate and, in my opinion, entirely irregular. As I say, I do not see any hope or prospect of the rates coming down. The rates are keeping in line with national taxation — soaring higher and higher year after year. I sometimes wonder, if we have to pass through the blizzard of depression which it is quite likely the world will have to pass through in a few years' time, how we are going to bear the burden of the rates and the high taxation. I would be very much interested to hear the Minister's reply to that particular question.

At the outset I mentioned, or I intended to mention, the abnormal delays which sometimes take place in the Minister's Department in obtaining sanction for various proposals submitted and I was inclined to suggest that the Minister should set up another committee to ascertain the reasons why such delays take place. In view of the fact that he has been shorn of some of his authority in recent months, I am almost inclined to give him a respite for another year in the hope that he will reassemble his Department, or at least what is left of it, and give the local Authorities a better service than they have got from him in the past. He has representatives of the Department of Local Government in every county in this country at the present time. I do seriously suggest to him that he should delegate some of his authority at all events as far as expenditure is concerned, to his local representatives. I do not hope despite the changes that have taken place, despite the fact that we now have three Ministers discharging the functions one Minister has discharged hitherto, that there is likely to be very much of a change in the Department of Local Government.

There will be the same delays, there will be grumbling on the part of local authorities and there will be the same dissatisfaction amongst a section of the ratepayers. I do seriously think that if the Minister placed a certain additional responsibility on county managers, if he gave them authority to approve, themselves, of expenditure up to certain limited amounts — up to £500 or £1,000 — it would be a matter for himself to fix the limit, it would add considerably to the efficiency of the Local Government administration and very much to the smoothness of the working of the Local Government machine. Despite what Deputy Everett says, the county managers, in my opinion, have done their work well. The system never got a fair trial. It was initiated during a period of emergency, and the managers were confronted by emergency conditions for the last six years. The system, undoubtedly, has a lot of merits, the men who are operating the system are, on the whole, fully conscious of their responsibility and I think that they have acted in a most helpful and sympathetic manner. I think that, on the whole, they have co-operated whole-heartedly with the local boards and have tried to operate a difficult system in a fair and impartial way.

Now that the Minister has that experience of these men, now that he is aware of their outlook, I think he could legitimately take the responsibility of empowering them to sanction expenditure without the necessity of applying for prior sanction— approve all expenditure, I will say up to £500 for the sake of argument, on local schemes of work and so on. It would relieve the Department of Local Government of a great deal of work. It would relieve the Minister himself of a certain amount of responsibility and it would add to the general efficiency of the whole service. I suggest to the Minister that he should consider this proposal of mine because I think it is in the best interests of the State and the local boards that he should do that. The Minister certainly made a very long statement. He covered every department of his limited responsibility in a most successful and exhaustive way and while there is plenty of room for criticism one feels that in view of the changes that have taken place in recent months it would perhaps be unfair to indulge in too much criticism until we see what advantage the country will gain from the altered circumstances and administration of the original Department of Local Government.

I think that the provision of houses is the most important part of this Estimate. I think the Minister has approached this problem from the right angle by initiating a competition for suitably planned houses for our people. To my mind easily-run houses with plenty of built-in cupboards and adequate storage for turf are essential. I would suggest that when these competitions are submitted for approval a few women should be selected to look over them — especially women who are going to live in these types of houses and who should, therefore, know the problems which require to be solved. I would also suggest that when the houses are erected, the main living-room, if at all possible, should face south so that the occupants of the house will get as much benefit from the sun as they possibly can. The exterior, too, is very essential, particularly in rural areas. Many of these houses are solidly built but that is very often where their advantage ends. It would be very attractive if we could evolve our own particular style of architecture. Other countries have their own particular features which distinguish one country's domestic architecture from another.

The particular style of architecture is incorporated into all houses, large and small, and this helps to strengthen the feeling of nationality. When the Minister is considering planning the water supply for rural areas I would be glad if he would consider the system known as "district heating" for the supply of running hot water to all houses. A central boiler, functioning in the town, is required so that there will be a constant supply of hot water. This would be of great advantage to the housewives who would not have to bother about the storage of turf. I am sure it would be expensive to start with but if it could be tried out in a small village I think it would be a great advantage in the end.

I would like to make one observation in regard to turf. I think shelter provision should be made for all men working on the bogs under the county council schemes. All these bogs are very exposed with sometimes not even a tree within miles, and the men have nowhere to shelter when a storm comes on. Sometimes these men get soaked through and through and, having nowhere to change, absenteeism, owing to illness, very often results. I think a great deal of that could be avoided if some sort of shelter could be provided for them. It need not be very elaborate.

Then provision should be made also for hot meals for those men during the day. It seems to me that for men after a hard day's work in a bog, a bread meal is not sufficient. If they were provided at a cheap rate with a good hot meal, turf production would, I think, go up considerably. If the country were engaged in war, field kitchens would be supplied for the soldiers on the field and everything would be done to see that they were properly fed. After all, this is a peacetime war against the elements and against time. I think that the adequate feeding of those men on the bogs would pay dividends in the form of greater production of turf.

I should like to digress from the subject under discussion to congratulate Deputy Mrs. Crowley on her approach to two matters. The first concerns housing. It is very welcome, indeed, to see the Minister making provision for competitions for designs for housing schemes. I should like to express agreement with Deputy Mrs. Crowley in asking that some women should be got to give their opinion on those designs. One of the most amazing things about architects appears to me to be that none of them ever seems to have had anything to do with the cooking of meals or the running of a house. Apparently, they live in some upper stratum where these mundane affairs do not trouble them.

That applies to houses of all sizes. Anybody who visited houses being built recently—even within the last two or three years — and who is interested in a house as a machine must have been struck by the extraordinary way in which everything is thought of except the convenience of the woman who runs the house. That point of view should be kept to the forefront when the designs for houses under these schemes are being considered.

With regard to the living-room — the main room of the house — facing south, that is a point which has always struck me as peculiar about county council cottages, as they are called. They all face the road along which they are situated, irrespective of whether that is north, south, east or west. You get the result sometimes that the main windows face east and that the south gable, which gets the sun, has no window at all. It has always struck me as most peculiar that the door must face the road. I think that the Minister's approach to this matter by having competitions in lay-out of the schemes and of the houses themselves is very desirable.

As regards the other matter to which Deputy Mrs. Crowley referred — turf — I presume that will shortly all go over to Bord na Móna. I hope the Minister will bear those remarks of the Deputy in mind and pass them on to Bord na Móna for their earnest consideration.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on the lengthy and very interesting exposition of the Estimate which he gave. It was very satisfying to have so many details given — almost too satisfying because one is left with a rosy outlook which may not be quite justified. With regard to the provision of water schemes out of the Transition Development Fund — schemes which would be otherwise uneconomic —I think I am right in saying that one of the conditions of those schemes is that the works should be completed by the end of this financial year. Can the Minister hold out any real hope that that will, in fact, happen? If it does not happen, does that mean that the grant from the Transition Development Fund will not materialise? The Minister is aware that there is abound to be considerable difficulty in getting supplies of materials such as water pipes. With a great number of those schemes proceeding all over the country, delays may occur. I hope that the rule that schemes must be completed by the end of this financial year will not operate against a local authority in cases where the delay was not due in any way to their laxity.

I should like to refer to one particular scheme which the Minister has, I understand, sanctioned for my county. All the schemes are very necessary and one affects my own immediate district. A scheme that I think should be pressed on with every possible celerity is that in Inishowen, in the Greencastle area. There is a very serious water problem there. I spent last week-end in Greencastle. Nobody could say that this spring has been too dry, yet the proprietors of the hotel there have to refuse permission to those staying in it to have a bath. Already the water supply is running very short and, as I have said, the spring has not been notorious for its dryness. If the Minister looks into this matter, he will find that this scheme is extremely urgent.

It is good to see that the Department is making a new approach to the road question and that the Minister is setting up a committee of experts to consider the type of road is most suitable. I understand that the Minister is setting up several committees of experts. The pity is that this, which might very well be considered as post-war planning, was not done a few years back. I suppose that the division of the Department into three sections provides an opportunity to make a good start in these matters. There is not much that a layman can say on the question which is to be considered by this committee dealing with roads. Provision is made for local authorities, to make representations to that committee and it is desirable that a member of a local authority should use that vehicle when giving his views. I should like to say, however, that the Department should use its influence with local authorities, so far as possible, to force them to get into a contract system for the construction and maintenance of roads.

The present system, in my own county at any rate, where the contract system has practically gone, means that the unfortunate ratepayer is paying about £3 for £1 worth of road work. I can see no prospect of any improvement unless we can get back to a proper contract system. There is no point in going into the history of what happened the contract system before, but I think that the Department might very well encourage the formation of a contracting company. The State has encouraged the formation of semi-State companies to carry out other works like the supply of electricity. I think the formation of a road contracting company of a semi-State type would pay very handsome dividends. It would give more uniformity in road surfaces from one county to another and I believe that the work could be carried out much more cheaply and expeditiously. To anyone who travels frequently through different counties it is very striking to see the difference in the road surfaces. It is also interesting to see the different approaches to the maintenance of roads. In one county you will have a staff of eight or nine men with a horse and cart and a horse-drawn tar machine. In the next county you will have a man and a boy with a wheel-barrow and, so far as I can see, the man and the boy with the wheel-barrow produce very much the same results as the horse and cart and the horse-drawn tar machine. Where it comes to the construction or the complete re-surfacing of roads, the mechanised system is well out on its own. I believe that that could be better handled by some central contracting company of a semi-State type.

The Minister made reference to the grants under the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1946, for the provision of the extra room for tubercular persons. I wonder did I take him up correctly. I think be said that the amount of the grant was £100, or some proportion of the cost, or £100, whichever is the lesser.

Two-thirds of the cost, or £100, whichever is the lesser.

Mr. Brennan

Reference was made by several speakers to the slippery nature of most of the county roads, particularly the main and trunk roads. Speaking for my own county, I think that that does not obtain at present. When the tar macadam road was first introduced the method adopted was to raise the camber of the road so that the water was thrown to both sides. To my mind, that was responsible for a lot of the difficulty that horse traffic had to contend with in travelling over the tarred surface. The chippings also were too small and I think that far too much tar was used in the spreading of the chippings. In County Wicklow I notice that the chippings are almost three-quarters of an inch in size and that the method adopted is to mix the tar and the chippings first and then do the spreading. The road is rolled afterwards and, to my mind, that makes a very good non-slippery surface. The heavy chippings are embedded in the tar and the proper amount of tar is used in the mixing. A certain amount of tar is used per cubic yard of chippings, so that you get a uniform dressing of tar and you have a larger sized type of chipping which gives a very good non-slippery surface.

One Deputy referred to the amount of money involved in keeping the roads properly maintained. He referred particularly to certain work on the roads and suggested that the money involved in the carrying out of this particular work could be used to better advantage for the benefit of the community by carrying out some other work. He referred to the taking away of corners on the roads. I think that is one of the most important works to be done on the main and trunk roads. Where there are corners which should be removed, the engineers should take every opportunity to have that work carried out. It is only when some accident happens that we hear about a bad corner, and the next move is to remove the corner.

I think it was Deputy Roddy who referred to the high cost of road maintenance at present and the amount required for road rates. I think that the Minister and his Department are to be complimented on the way they have dealt with the public bodies both for the year 1946-47 and for the year 1947-48 in connection with the roads. When we take into consideration the increased grant given, I think that the small increase in the road rate, in my county at any rate, is more than compensated for by the amount of the grant given in order to have the roads put in proper repair owing to the scarcity of tar during the emergency period when they could not be kept as they should be kept. I am sure the same thing applies in most counties. I think that we all appreciate the Minister's attitude in providing that money. It is based on a three-years' plan, and we hope that the same amount of money will be forthcoming next year. I am sure no member of the council will raise any objection to providing the increased rate for roads that may be necessary in next year's estimates for the county. There is a great demand for cottages and for houses in urban areas and in areas under town commissioners.

I am sure the Minister has given great thought to the question of the grants given to public utility societies and private individuals — speculative builders, if you like — who are prepared to provide houses of a certain type, a type that will suit the individual referred to by Deputy Cosgrave this evening as the white collar worker. So far as I remember, I think £80 is given, provided he is kept within a certain area. I think £80 is given to public utility societies and £70 to private builders. That obtained in 1939. The cost of building has increased definitely by 100 per cent. — and surely that is a very conservative figure. I am sure the Minister has related the £80 to a £1,000 house in 1939, and what it would mean for a £2,000 house to-day. Because I believe he has done that, I am living in hopes that he has something in mind to meet the situation that obtains, so that help can be given to provide a suitable type of house for the individual to whom I have referred.

I would be surprised if he is influenced to the extent of retaining that grant at its present level by the hope that building costs will come down. I can see no hope in that direction. Taking any of the items that go to build a house, any of the raw materials, I can see no hope whatever of prices coming down. We may hope in a few years from now that we will have greater imports of timber, but what will be the cost per cubic foot compared with what you could purchase timber for in 1938 and 1939?

At the present time imported timber costs between 9/- and 10/- per cubic foot, particularly if it is red or a first-quality type of timber. If you go back to 1939 you will find that you bought foreign timber, such as white deal, for 3/6 a cubic foot. Not alone did that raw material increase in price, but it went off the market completely. That is the only raw material in regard to which we may hope in a few years' time that imports will become better and that the price may be reduced somewhat.

The amount of timber in an average house will not make any appreciable difference in the cost. I think the Minister may accept it as inevitable that the cost of building will not go down. I hope, when he was looking forward to the cost of building decreasing by not increasing that grant which is so essential to provide the type of house for which there is a certain demand to-day, that he was not influenced by any belief in a decrease of building costs.

Another matter to which I wish to refer is the maximum laid down by the Department before a potential house builder can quality to come under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. I understand the position is that a house costing more than £1,000 will not permit a man to qualify. Again, the same thing applies. If a house were at a certain price in 1939 and a man could qualify to receive the grant and to apply to the local body which had adopted the Act, I think that sum of £1,000 should be increased now in order to permit the same type of individual, who may be in a position to put up a certain amount of the, capital outlay on a house, to qualify for his grant and to receive the necessary loan, spread over a number of years, from the public body in his area which has adopted the Act.

I ask the Minister to consider that matter. I have a double motive in doing so, inasmuch as two or three individuals have approached me on the matter. They are very anxious to build, to take advantage of this Act; they have a certain amount of capital to put into houses, but at the same time they have not enough to carry out the full building programme. It would be essential for them to apply to a particular local body. I hope the Minister will give consideration to that matter.

Reference was made by Deputy Everett to houses of the small farming type that you can see when you are travelling up and down the country. A grant of £40 was given provided the floor space of the house did not exceed a certain area. At the time that scheme was very welcome. The people appreciated the fact that the Government was willing to give a grant of £40 towards the reconstruction of houses in one form or another. Of course the £40 never did the job and the Department never expected that it would. They expected that the individual who was going to benefit to the extent of £40 should be in a position either through his own labour or by employing some extra labour, to put his house into a condition which would satisfy the Department's inspectors. Again I think that the amount of that grant should be increased.

There are just a few points I should like to put to the Minister in regard to the question of water supplies and sewerage. I think it is over two years ago since I first heard correspondence read from the Department; at a meeting of the Wicklow County Council asking the engineers to prepare a list of water schemes so that the work could be undertaken immediately the emergency had passed. I have one particular scheme in mind and I think it is well over 15 months ago since that scheme was before the members of the council. In fact, I think it was round about 15 months ago that, when passing through the particular town where the scheme is to be carried through, I saw levels being taken by an engineer. I, personally, on a few occasions since, have asked about that scheme, but we seem to be getting nowhere. Whether the matter is held up or not in the Department, I am not prepared to say. As I say, we on the council prepared a list of both sewerage and water schemes. Amongst the works on that list was a number of what we called minor schemes, water and sewerage schemes. The schemes were placed in order of priority and the result was that the major schemes in the small towns and villages got precedence over the smaller schemes which in some cases were far more essential.

I think that was a mistake. Whether or not it was done on the order of the Department I cannot say, but I have in mind one small minor sewerage scheme. When the main sewerage scheme in that town was carried out ten or 12 years ago, a particular line of houses and business premises could not be taken in, due to the fact that the levels of the main sewers were not low enough.

I am not making the suggestion in any way that the planning of the original scheme was wrong. I would say that the proper thing was done, in carrying out the main scheme on its own levels. A certain amount was saved by making no attempt whatever to get down to the levels necessary to take in these other houses and business premises. There is an existing sewer catering for these two houses and the effluent, of that sewer, up to about four or five years ago, emptied into a ditch about four or live feet over the main road. The heavy matter came out there and anybody can imagine what it was like for the inhabitants of that locality to walk out the roadway on a hot summer day.

After some time, as a result of representations that were made, the sewer was connected to a manhole on the side of the ditch, a manhole built up over the level of the effluent pipe and the hewer was conducted across to the other side of the road where it emptied into the ordinary water table. The only difference that I could see was that instead of coming through the centre of the ditch, open to the public eye, it went across to the other side and emptied into the water table under the road surface. A scheme was prepared and that is one of the schemes which, when these major schemes were not being put into operation, should be carried out, having regard to the fact that not alone are they essential so far as the public health is concerned but also from the point of view of preventing strangers who might be visiting this country from getting a wrong impression of our sanitary arrangements.

I think a scheme of that character should be carried through in the first instance and not be placed lower on the list than the major schemes. About two months ago the matter came up at a county council meeting and the county manager in a nice way passed over it, slided over it, shelved it, so to speak, the reason given being that no moneys had been provided in the estimates and that the larger schemes which had been placed on the priority list should be carried out first. I do not want to say anything more on that matter but I hope I have said sufficient to enable the Minister to visualise what I have in mind.

As regards water supplies, I was approached a month or five weeks ago by representative people from a tourist area and my attention was drawn to the fact that while they have a water supply, it is open to contamination. I wrote to the assistant engineer in connection with the matter and he replied suggesting that an extension of the pipeline should be carried towards the main source, the well. He also wrote to the county manager, drawing the county manager's attention to the fact that he had representations from me and he made the same suggestion— that, in order to prevent contamination, the main pipeline should be extended towards the well, the source of the supply. In reading over the county manager's orders of last month I saw where this particular water scheme was referred to. The assistant engineer's representations to the county manager were there in the paragraph and the county manager's order was there also.

The order of the county manager shelved the matter by stating that no money was provided in the estimates for the execution of that work. I want to point out to the Minister that that occurred in an area that is outstanding as far as tourism is concerned. The suggestion of the assistant engineer proved that there was justice in the claim. I want to say that if so little attention is going to be paid to a suggestion of that kind, particularly in a tourist area, so as to ensure that there would be a pure water supply not only for the residents of the district who are entitled to it because they have to pay for it but also for the tourists who come there, and out of whom the residents make a living during the tourist season, then there is not much use in the Government spending millions of money in trying to induce tourists to come here. I hope the Minister will think over that. I know what the functions of the county manager are. I fail to see why he should not look upon it as his duty — he being the responsible authority — to see that a pure water supply is provided in every area over which he has control. I think he should have seen that and acted accordingly, and not have shelved the matter by saying that no provision was made in the estimates for carrying out the work.

The Minister's statement outlining his general policy on local government was very encouraging. His proposal to make provision for horse-drawn traffic on our main roads is one that I support cordially. It is time that an effort was made to overcome that particular danger. It has been discussed time and time again at county council and other meetings throughout the country. Farmers and others who employ horse-drawn traffic are experiencing great difficulty owing to the slippery conditions of the roads. Some Deputies seem to be of the opinion that the danger which is there could be remedied if studs were used in horse shoes, while others felt that the use of rough stone and tar would overcome the difficulty. I do not think that either of the suggested remedies would be effective. I believe that the best material to use is that composed of rough gravel and small stones. With regard to the margins, I think that where there is a good width of road the margin should be at least four feet on each side, and in other cases the minimum width of the margin should, be three feet. It may be said that the use of the material which I suggest would be blown off the roads by heavy and fast moving traffic. I do not think that would be so at all. You have gangers in charge of these steam-rolled roads whose job it is to see that pot holes are repaired. They could see that the material was kept brushed back so that it would provide a grip for this horse-drawn traffic. I think that if the margins got a good surface covering of the material I speak of it would remain there for 12 months.

The condition of the roads in general is causing a good deal of dissatisfaction and unrest amongst the farming community, especially those who are the representatives of the people on the county councils. I imagine that what is happening in the County Mayo is also occurring in other counties. Over a great part of Mayo road repair is carried out under some of those unemployment grants. I may say that the by-roads in those areas are in fairly good order, but in other areas, where you have a big mileage of road and where these unemployment grants are not applicable, the roads even though they have fairly sound foundations are not able to stand up to the heavy traffic on them. You have a big population living on them, and they are not in a condition to meet the heavy agricultural traffic that is passing over them. These roads are used by people who are engaged in all classes of agricultural work. In some areas there are roads leading into large villages and roads joining two main contract roads. By reason of the fact that they are not of the prescribed width the council cannot maintain them. Some of the money that is being spent on main roads should be given for the repair of these roads. I know the condition of these roads. The standard of some of them that are maintained by contract is not what might be described as a reasonable standard.

Some method should be devised whereby a higher standard would be obtained for some of these rural roads. There should be some system of main-taming the by-roads off these rural roads that are maintained by contract, even if it meant a small levy. In my county we levied an additional 4d. in the £ for the purpose of the general repair of roads, the lowering of hills and the widening of corners. It was considered that this 4d. in the £, supplementing other grants for the upkeep of roads, would go a long way in ten to 15 years in putting the by-roads into repair and bringing them to a suitable standard so that the people would have accommodation in travelling to their villages, bogs, conacre and tillage land.

The next point I wish to refer to is the question of providing an additional room for tubercular patients. Personally, I do not approve of that system. I do not think it is a good system. I believe that this room would eventually be used for ordinary domestic purposes. Where a room is added to a cottage the possibilities are that it will not be segregated from the living rooms. It may have the effect, in the event of the cottage becoming vacant, of making it difficult to get a tenant. Where a room is provided for that purpose in a house it may have the effect of lessening the value of the house.

If the owner thinks that, he need not provide a room. He cannot have it both ways. He cannot get £100 and at the same time not take the disadvantage that might go with it.

In order to obviate delay in treating patients and to provide treatment for those awaiting it, an arrangement was made to take over a place in Belmullet, and a place in Swinford. Nothing has been done and, as far as I can see, neither of these places has been taken over. In my opinion the only solution is to provide additional accommodation in the existing sanatorium.

That is a matter for the Minister for Health.

The Minister may say that existing sanatoria will be able to meet the situation.

That is a matter for the Minister for Health.

In connection with the cottage schemes for towns and housing in general, I agree with the Deputy who referred to the £80 grant and the £40 grant. One point that I want to bring before the Minister in connection with this cottage scheme is that in rural towns a number of cottages are built and people are taken out of condemned houses and transferred to these cottages. There is a danger, which I am afraid is beginning to become general, that as soon as some of these houses are condemned and the tenants removed other people come in to occupy them. As one knowing the conditions that exist in small rural towns, I suggest that when a house is condemned and the tenant is transferred, there should be some provision for rebuilding on the site of the condemned house.

The landlord should have the first option of rebuilding, but if he does not wish to rebuild there should be provision whereby the council would rebuild. It may cost more to rebuild on that site and the house may be more expensive, but the tenant that would be put into the house could afford to pay a higher rent than a tenant who would be put into a cottage. These derelict houses disfigure the country-hide. Some use should be made of the vacant sites. If the landlord does not wish to rebuild, the Department should take over the site and compensate him for the value of the ground. It should not be allowed to remain as an eyesore.

I agree with the Deputy from Wicklow who suggested that the grant of £80 allowed for a house in a rural area is not at all in keeping with the cost of building a new house now as compared with 1939. If people are to be encouraged to build houses in rural areas that grant should be almost doubled. Everything possible should be done to encourage people to build, if necessary, by giving them a loan repayable over a number of years. Then there is the condition as to valuation. If a holding is £25 valuation, the only grant allowable is £40. That valuation limit should be raised.

I believe that £25 should be increased to at least £40 so that up to £40 he would be eligible to get the higher grant. In areas like Mayo, there are only a small number of farmers between £25 and £40 and some of them would have an advantage to gain and may be encouraged to build a house if they got the same terms as those who are under the £25 valuation.

In conclusion, my experience of the managerial system, as a member of a county council, is that it is working out satisfactorily. The county manager and the elected members agree and seem to be one, as far as coming to agreement on general policy and administration of the county is concerned. The Minister should have a survey made of the roads I mentioned which cannot come under repair by any scheme and where there does not seem to be any hope of repair. Unless something is done to meet the needs of these people, they will have the feeling that they will get no advantage out of road schemes or road grants.

Listening to this debate, I have come to the conclusion that the members of the Government are finding that the County Manager input Act put into operation in 1942 by the present Minister is a failure. The different speakers are all finding faults with it. I am one who never agreed with the managerial system and never will. As a public representative on a county council and an urban authority, I find we are no more than figureheads and have no authority to spend the ratepayers' money, only providing in the estimate for increased rates for the county manager to spend in whatever way he likes. The public representatives have no say in employing a man or in the letting of a cottage. It is in the advertisements that canvassing directly or indirectly will disqualify. That is dictatorship pure and simple.

As this Vote covers a wide field, we can deal with cottages and the building of houses, roads, bogs and so on. I cannot understand why every county council is not compelled to produce turf where there is turf in the area. Instead of that, we had a meeting of the Wexford County Council about two months ago, and we were told that the contract was given out in one year bogs to a contractor in Carlow, where in the first year that turf production was put into operation in that county, the county council took it out themselves. Since then, through the county manager and through political influence, they have failed to do the work and have handed it over to private contractors who make huge profits.

I regret to see this evening that the turf workers have gone on strike. That is a very serious thing for the country, after experiencing a bad winter last year. As fuel production is one of the most important things now, I am really sorry that the men did not wait for the result of the Labour Court hearing. I would only have sympathy with them if they did not get a fair deal through the Labour Court when the necessary strike weapon could be used. I hops it will be brought to a speedy conclusion, especially in the interests of the poor people who went through great hardships last winter and who to-day, in my own area, are short of timber and turf.

I am not very pleased with the working of the Department or with the Minister's own attitude regarding the sanction of payments recommended by county councils and urban councils as to increases in pay. As far back as last October, we were in touch with the county manager for two men in a sanatorium and he informed us that the increase had not been sanctioned yet. This letter I have from the county manager says:—

"With reference to yours of the 22nd inst., I beg to inform you that the order made by me on the 8th October last was forwarded to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. As approval of payment has not yet been received, payment will be operated from the date of the order."

Is not that a matter for the Minister for Health?

The Minister present in the House was responsible for sanction before the new Department of Social Welfare was put into operation. This was last October. The Minister's attitude is very wrong. In an institution where the like of that is going on, let the responsible Minister, whether it is the Minister present here now or Deputy Dr. Ryan, put those things right. The local authorities are trying to get these institutions running smoothly and if they do not get tile help of the Department, especially when they are putting up the rates and providing for these people in the Estimates, it is very difficult for them. It is not right that the men in the Custom House should turn the cold shoulder in regard to these men, who are not very well paid in the majority of institutions. The local authorities' officials are the worst paid people in the State.

In regard to cottage repairs, Deputy Keating has been advocating here for years that the repairs should be undertaken, just as I have been, since we got into the county council. We find that, day in and day out, we are getting complaints and letters are coming from all over the country and they are being handed in every month and sent down daily to the county council offices. We get a reply saying: "I have received your complaint; I have passed it on to the engineer for his attention." We find that, 12 months afterwards, the same person writes again about a council cottage. Nothing has been done. We are told at one, time that it is impossible to get tradesmen and at another time that, there is a cement shortage. Then there is no timber. All the time, the people's property — not the Government's property — is left to fall asunder throughout the country.

Some Deputies talked about building houses. We know well enough there is no hope of building a house at the moment. We had contracts out in County Wexford for 250 cottages, and for how many did we get tenders? Only for 13. The Land League cottage in the country is £600, with the result that the rates of that cottage will be something about 3/- or 4/- a week in a rural area. Talk about houses for the city and for the towns. The estimate for a Land League cottage, a city house or an urban house will be over £1,000 with the result that such houses will be out of it as far as the workman is concerned. If we cannot see our way to have loans extended for 99 years or long-term loans, there is no way we can let the houses cheaply, but as a general rule the Department comes along and only gives you so many years. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 30th May, 1947.
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