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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 30 May 1947

Vol. 106 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41 — Local Government (Resumed).

Last night I dealt with some aspects of the Minister's housing programme. The Minister said that we want 61,000 houses. We do, and we want employment for over 70,000 men. I am sure houses are not going to grow up like mushrooms. A complete housing programme may not be fulfilled in the life of the present Government, but something more should be done towards a solution of the problem which, with the problem of unemployment, is one of the most urgent for the country. I consider that the Department of Local Government and Public Health are not moving fast enough. When a scheme is submitted to them it is held up for months. The Minister said that Waterford is the only' county that is in earnest in this matter. Wexford has submitted plans for over 200 houses for Enniscorthy which have not yet been sanctioned.

The shortage of timber should not be holding up the schemes. If we got sanction, we could be developing the sites, making blocks and employing labour on the lay-out plans and the railing off of the allotments attached to these houses. By doing that we would be trying in some way to relieve the situation to-day—the burning question — to find work for our people who are clamouring for it at the labour exchanges. It is all very well for the Minister to tell the House of the great plans for housing. It is the Government's duty to put those plans into operation immediately. A few days ago, we were told by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that we had not full cement production and will not have it until June. That is a case of "live horse and you will get grass" for the people outside this House.

At the moment, we have newly-married couples all over the country looking for houses, we have people in lodgings in council houses and we are making no provision for them. We were told during the emergency that these schemes could not be put into operation. Something ought to be done, now that the war is over, to help the community in some way, instead of putting it on the long finger until another emergency arises — and then, instead of 61,000 houses, we will want 100,000, as there will be a lot more married couples looking for places.

I find that, under the county manager, the letting of houses in urban and rural areas is delayed and the house is locked up until the county manager allots it. At the same time, there may be 20 or 30 applicants. These people come to you and say: "What are you doing, to allow the council to be locking up houses?" and we have to tell them that, as public representatives elected by the people, we have no functions in the matter, that it is the county manager who is going to allot the houses. Then the people apply and go through all the necessary red tape of getting doctors' certificates, certificates from the local clergy and other people with influence, to try to get a house. After all that is done, they hear no more. The house is allotted, in some cases to people who are not the most deserving and in other cases it is: "You must have tuberculosis to get a house". It is an awful slur when a person has to go to a tuberculosis doctor to declare in public that he is a tuberculosis case in order to get a house under a local authority. That is not going to improve the situation.

There is a scheme for extra rooms for tuberculosis patients. I agree that it is very good, where there is overcrowding and where a person has been in a sanatorium, that he should come back and be provided with an extra room. However, how are you going to keep the father or mother separate from the children in the kitchen, even with the extra room? It cannot be done. Therefore, it is not going to cure the tuberculosis case. Then when the people all pass away out of that cottage, the extra room is left there and people who are nervous say they will not go into that room, as those who were in it died of tuberculosis. You have these cottages with an extra room attached to them and the people going the load know that it is an infected house. That is not going to improve the situation, but will only expose the people who are delicate. The only cure is to cure what is causing tuberculosis — the inability of the poor people to get the proper necessaries of life, milk, butter and so on. They are not able to purchase them, as they have not got the purchasing power.

Every member of a local authority got a circular from the Custom House dated 7th February, 1946, showing the powers we have. What powers have we? People come to us and ask us to help them to get home assistance or some other help. We have to say we will have to report it to the county manager and then they say: "We voted for you, not for the county manager." Some Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party yesterday told us the 1940 Act is not working satisfactorily, as far as their own powers are concerned. It is only now, in 1947, that they are beginning to find out the loopholes in that Act. I had an experience in my own town where an official from a large printing office here in Dublin was sent down by the Appointments Commissioners and after a very short time there he got another position as a county secretary and to-day he is county manager in Cavan. What idea of local affairs had that man, going into a county or a town? The local people who elect us to those councils look to us to do something for them, but we find that the power has been taken out of our hands. Little dictators are sent down, through political influence in some cases, and these county managers are forced on the people. We were told that the rates were to show a great saving and that it was only through the county manager that that could take place. I can see no saving in my own county. I can see the rates higher than ever, I can see the whole system working, and jobs being made, even without it being brought before the local authorities. The positions are filled and the only time we know it is when the manager's orders are read out at the monthly meeting. Then we find out that someone has been appointed to a job. The day that Act was passed in this House, the rights and powers of the local people, who go forward in elections to represent the people, were taken away. The county manager has all the powers given to him. As Deputy Everett said last night, the local representative has no say, as it is the manager's job. When will the Minister say to these people, to whom the ratepayers are paying £1,000 per year, that the local representatives are the bosses and not the county managers?

There has been reference to the slippery condition of the toads. I see no roads being provided for anybody but Córas Iompair Éireann from Dublin to the big towns. As a result of the snow and frost some months ago, every road has been broken up. We do not need to wait for ships to bring in the material to do the repair work on these roads. We have the labour available, and all we want to enable us to provide good roads are the Government grants. During the winter, youngsters had to trudge through drifts of snow and locks of water, and there were not enough men employed to keep the ditches in order so as to run the water off me roads. The people who have to cycle and walk five and six miles to Mass on Sundays have no tarred roads. They were not thought of when these grants were made to provide slippery surfaced roads for buses and for motor-cars.

We have applications for water supplies from all parts of my constituency and I have been told by the chairman of the Wexford County Council that it was not the duty of the council to provide water for the people, although they have built houses and left the people without water supplies, with the result that they have to go four and five miles to a farmer's house for a bucket of water. That is what requires to be tackled, and to be tackled immediately. There is work to be done and the labour is available. Give the local authorities giants for the carrying out of this work and you will be doing something, but at present there is not a house being built, except by people with priorities who are putting up picture houses and dance halls or private dwellings outside Dublin. I do not sec any masons at work in any of the counties I travel through building a Land League cottage.

The cottage repairs which have been referred to are one of the great problems which we have in Wexford. Deputy Keating has been agitating for years for the carrying out of these repairs. During the winter storms tiles and slates were blown off, and, although the damage was reported, repairs were not carried out. You bring the matter before the county manager every month and the county engineer, with a whole fleet of engineers under him, sits listening, while, at the same time, the Custom House sends down seven more engineers to survey the roads of Wexford at £7 7s. 0d. per week for 12 months. When are we going to stop putting these burdens on the ratepayers? We have plenty of engineers in Wexford to do the necessary work, if only they are put to the work, but local representatives have no authority now. They do not mind local representatives now — they just sneer at them.

A woman wrote to me the other day about the flooding of her land by a pump which had been left running, and, when the engineer went down, he almost flew at that woman because she wrote to me about the matter. This kind of thing is going on day in and day out. There is plenty of work to be done in removing corners, widening roads and putting down footpaths, without talking about waiting until we get timber. The work is there, and, if it is not done, what hope is there for the unemployed?

This circular states that "the chairman of the county council is the main link between the elected body and the manager"—the chairman only. No other poison counts. The ordinary members can go in and listen to the chairman, who, in some cases, is a Fianna Fáil chairman and who will never bring anything forward because he backed this policy when the Bill was going through the House, and he cannot change now. I believe that all houses should be built, as was done in the past, by direct labour, and so save the costs involved in bad employers and bad contractors putting up shacks under poor supervision and getting away with it.

We have a turf bog in Mount Leinster, and I heard Ministerial requests over the radio to everybody to go out and cut turf. The Wexford County Council has not got enough turf, but I did not know until I went to the last meeting of the council that they had given the contract for a man in Carlow. He had about 12 men on the mountain, and I have been told that, when men went up to look for a job, he said he had enough, because he had not got wheel barrows or other necessary equipment.

I was surprised by Deputy Davin's statement last night and I am sure that men throughout the country will be surprised, when they learn that he said that the Labour Party had no connection whatever with the Federation of Rural Workers. I am sure his colleagues in the Labour Party do not agree with his statement, because, to my knowledge, the Leader of the Labour Party and other members, of the Party have been organising the rural workers. They must, therefore, take responsibility and must not seek to shirk the issue in this House. If they are behind it, let them say so, and not say they have no connection with it. I know that a man was appointed last year as organiser and secretary of this federation who is not a native of this country. He came here from Scotland and is a paid official of the Labour Party and is well-known in the Communist movement, that cannot be denied.

Cheers for the Minister for Local Government.

Deputy Norton can talk when I have finished. Deputy Davin went down to Leix-Offaly last Sunday, not to talk about the turf workers, but to attack us. But he cannot attack me for any stand I took. That was endorsed by the people of Wexford.

What has that to do with the Estimate, Deputy?

I am just telling Deputy Davin now that I read his speech and that it did not carry any weight at all.

It does not come into the Estimate, Deputy.

It is up to the Deputy to deny it.

It has nothing to do with local government.

It is about turf.

It is about Deputy Davin.

About the imaginary Communists.

About the turf workers. Deputy Davin made a statement last night in answer to the Minister for Local Government and he said that they had nothing to do with the federation of Rural Workers.

Mr. Corish

He said it was not affiliated to the——

It is in the papers.

Read what is in the paper.

Mr. Corish

Come on, read it out.

What you say is not true.

This controversy, Deputy, might be——

It is very important and it has to do with the position of the poor of this country in the coming winter. If we want to see turf produced——

Mr. Corish

Would you not like to see the turf workers getting good wages?

We want to see——

Will you come down and cut turf with me to-morrow? I will bring you down myself.

You have not the time. You have two or three jobs and you would not have the time.

Deputy Davin is altogether out of order.

I do not mind what Deputy Davin says to me. I am well able for Deputy Davin or for any member of his Party.

A real Goliath.

I am not a bit afraid of any of them in that group. I want to see turf produced by all means. We have no turf at the moment. We have no turf in my own town — we are not even able to get the ration. If there is any undercurrent between the men and the production of turf in this country it should be looked up immediately. I want to see fair play. I have listened to statements and I have read them in the Press down the country and I do not like that sort of thing. I think I have cleared the air in that connection. Deputy Davin should not attack the Deputies of this House at his public meetings but instead he should try to talk sense. A cry was heard from some Deputies, and even from the Minister, that labour is not available. That is a wrong statement to be made by any Deputy of this House. Those of us in public life and those of us on county councils know well what the situation is. We are constantly getting letters from people all over the country who want to get a job on the roads. Last week unemployment assistance was stopped in rural districts, stopped in one of the slackest periods — now that the spring is over — until the harvest. We find them to-day going to the relieving officers in their area looking for something to try to get them over the week-end, not over the week at all but merely over the week-end.

That is wrong. If any Deputy or Minister should say that no workers are available he is not speaking the truth. The position now is that men in rural areas will have to exist on a paltry few shillings from this until after the harvest. When is the Government and the responsible Minister going to face up to facts? As far as I can see when one puts facts before any Party in this House they are not welcomed. I was sent here on two occasions by the people in my constituency to represent them and to impress on the Government that it is responsible for providing work for the people. It can be done in certain ways. It can be done by house building. It can be done by installing water and a lavatory in every urban council house throughout the country. We can go ahead with development schemes such as providing pumps for the people in the cottages. All that can be done. There is no such thing as waiting for materials. They are all there at hand and men can be given employment. If one is not well in with the county manager or engineer one might as well be out on Spike Island so far as trying to get anything done is concerned. The county managerial system is the worst system ever introduced into this House or in any country. It is dictatorship pure and simple. The same thing happened in Germany with small dictators until one dictator was put in who brought about the destruction of the country. Are we heading for that? Talk about democracy! Where is it? I cannot see it, being applied by the Fianna Fáil majority Government. Democracy! What we have in this country is jobbery, corruption! That is the kind of democracy that has been carried out since Fianna Fáil got the majority in this House. No one can deny it. On the 12th March, 1947, the unemployment figures were 76,900. That shows an increase in the unemployment register. Now if the responsible Minister and his Department in the Custom House do not sanction the schemes sent up by any local authority they are not doing their duty — the officers in the Department are not doing their duty and the Minister in his capacity as elected representative of the people in this House is not doing his duty, and he will have to answer the people for it. There is no doubt about that. The people must have someone to look after their interests and to whom can they look but to the elected representatives of the people? These people were sent in here to do something for them — not to voice their own personal grievances or spite, to call names, to say who shot this or that fellow, but to put their schemes into operation as they promised the people they would.

That is what requires to be done. In another year or maybe less when we are on the point of a general election they will be found on all sides going out through the country saying: "Put us back into power and we will put all these schemes into operation. We could not do so on account of the Opposition". That is the well-known cry used throughout the country since I have been able to listen to a public meeting. I have listened to public meetings before I was in public life, right down from the time of the late John Redmond, God rest him, to the present day. That is going on and the people are allowed to starve. The cost of living is going up. There is no control of prices.

The cost of living has nothing whatever to do with this Estimate.

It is on another Vote, Deputy.

I know that it is. I knew well that the Parliamentary Secretary would say that.

If the Deputy knew that why did he not keep away from it?

Because sometimes a Minister will say that it is someone else's duty — that the shopkeepers or the traders should cut down the prices. There has been talk about plots for the unemployed. I will give an outline of the plots scheme. We took land for plots when the plots scheme was put into operation. The majority of the plotholders are still trying to bow their plots in the same old ground. They have no fertilisers and in some cases they are getting bad seeds. They say that there is no use in tilling the plots because they cannot get fertilisers, and because the supply of manure is cut down; they are only getting four stones for one-eighth of an acre. They say that the seeds are not certified seeds. That is why some of the unemployed men gave up sowing. The potatoes which they were able to grow in the plots under these conditions were so small that they were no use to them so they had to give them to someone who had five or six pigs for a few shillings. The labour was in vain. The plots were no help to the people at all. Inspectors go around about these plots looking at the lads sowing but they do not see if they are getting the proper and the necessary seeds. That would be more important.

As Deputy Everett said last night, the widow should be entitled to a plot because she might have a son who would not be on the exchange. I knew old age pensioners who got a plot and it was taken from them. Instead of taking it from them, their photographs should have been in the Press showing how willing they were to till a piece of land. It was encouragement they should have received instead of having the plot taken from them because they were not on the register. The allotments scheme is a good scheme if carried out properly. It is a help to the poor. They have no control over the seeds. I think, that more manures should be given to them and that the plots should be given to them earlier in the season. I speak from experience. If I have a plot this year, I have no guarantee that I will get it next year no matter how hard I work. I might be temporarily employed next year and all my labour would be in vain. Everything I put into the plot would go to the benefit of somebody else. The only way you will get satisfaction is by guaranteeing plot-holders that they will have the same plot next year. There is a plot scheme up against my house and the fellows who are working on it ask what is the use of killing themselves when they may not have the plots next year.

They want fixity of tenure.

Certainly. If a man is willing to till a plot, by all means give it to him. There is plenty of land to be tilled and, in this way, you can solve the problem of compulsory tillage. There are plenty of fields available and plenty of men willing to pay the necessary £1 per plot. But they are not catered for. I do not know one man in my area who is working and who has got a plot, although many such men would be willing to till a plot. We should cater for the employed as well as the unemployed, because in the towns there are no gardens to the houses and the occupiers of the houses have nothing with which to occupy their minds in the evening. If they had a plot, they would be interested in it and they would do valuable work. That would have the effect of keeping down prices. If everybody in a position to do so would produce a little, those unable to produce would get their potatoes and cabbage more cheaply. Every man who is willing to till should get his one-eighth of an acre. Around the urban areas there are plenty of men who would be only too glad to take a plot. The Minister should give the plots at a lesser rent than £1. The cost of seeds and manure must be taken into consideration. I paid 3/- per stone for potato seed this year. If a man has to buy ten stones of that seed, buy manure and pay £1 for his plot, the cost is fairly heavy. The Government should come to the aid of these men and give the plots at a reasonable rent.

From my local experience, I can say that no progress is being made in the housing section of the Local Government Department. The people in the Custom House should speed up consideration of plans for housing or roads or any other schemes submitted by the local authorities. I find that there is always a snag in a scheme, which holds it up. We want a water scheme. We are dependent on electrical pumps to pump water from the River Slaney to a tank on Vinegar Hill. When a flash of lightning comes, the pumps go out of action. We are planning for a new water scheme on the mountain side and the county manager, who knows the present position, is anxious to have the scheme put into operation at an rarly date. I hope that any correspondence which comes from Enniscorthy Council will receive immediate attention, because people cannot, live without water. Water must be obtained, no matter what the cost. The ratepayers of my town pay £1,000 to the Electricity Supply Board in this connection. Yet, we cannot guarantee the people water if anything goes wrong with the works. A small reservoir supplies the low levels. The idea of putting a tank on historic Vinegar Hill was to have power to bring the water to the top of the town. Housing schemes built in the years gone by arc more often without water than with it. When these schemes come before the Minister or his Department, I want them sent down right away, if everything is in order, and not be waiting for months. There may be times when it is difficult to get over some little matter but that should not necessitate all the delay which takes place.

I come back to the case of the Wexford road. It is 16 feet wide and it was built of concrete by the previous Government. The way is highly dangerous on either side of the concrete because of the heavy traffic. People walking there on Sunday evening have to jump out of the way— on wet evenings into muck, as there are no footpaths. When one brings up these schemes, one is asked where is the money to come from or if one wants to raise the rates. These grants should be given freely. Grants have been lying here, unspent, for five years, and the ratepayers are no better off. The rates are still going higher and higher. These grants should be given for the making of footpaths. We have a scheme at the moment for putting down footpaths at certain parts of the town. An order came down recently that the money could not be used for the making of footpaths. At the back of the Slaney, we have a scheme which will be very nice when it is completed, but the shopkeepers and ratepayers, as I have said, have no chance of getting a new footpath laid down. The Government will not allow that. We cannot do what the people want and for which they arc prepared to pay. The Minister can send down a scheme and, if we do not carry it out, he will take back the money. Although the ratepayers hare to put up so much money, if the work is not carried out to his liking, the Minister will withdraw the grant. These are things that should be faced up to.

I am glad to be in a position to come to this House as a worker and tell the Government responsible what should be done, what is needed, and what is urgent. The Government should provide employment, they should build houses. They should sanction the necessary schemes submitted by the local authorities. When a local authority submit a scheme they know what the people want. They are the people on the spot. No man in the Custom House can tell me anything about my own area. One man in charge of a county cannot know what the people want. Who knows better than the public representatives what the people want? A man who is in charge of a whole county could not know what was happening five or ten miles away. If the Minister for Local Government asked the Dublin City Manager how the people in some of the slums were getting on, he could not tell him. The same thing applies to the county managers. They may be all right in their way, but they cannot be as well acquainted with the situation as the representatives elected by the people to carry out the wishes of the people in a proper way.

The Minister and the Government took power away from the local representatives and left us in a humiliating position, so that we have to tell the people that we cannot do anything for them. Is not that a very sad condition of things for any person on a public body when people come to him about home assistance or anything else? I know that the people are fed up because they do not know to whom they are to go when they want anything.

The County Management Act should be modified and power should be given back to the people's representatives. When an election comes about an honest man will have to say to the people: "I cannot go forward, because I will have no power to help you". I know that at the last election people who were asked to go forward said: "What is the use of going forward when I can do nothing for the people"? The result is that the people are losing confidence, not only in local authorities, but in the Government. I ask the Minister and the Government to modify the managerial system and give us back some power instead of having all this red tape. If a person wants to get a few shillings in home assistance he has to go to the relieving officer and the case is then sent on to the superintendent assistance officer and then to the county manager before the person can get relief. All that the relieving officer can give him is an order to a shopkeeper for some groceries. He cannot give him any money until the case goes before the county manager. All these are things which should be changed. Another thing I strongly object to is that when a cottage is vacant any person canvassing members, either directly or indirectly, is disqualified from getting the cottage. When Ministers and others are looking for votes they go around canvassing, but they will not let an unfortunate agricultural labourer or town worker canvass a member of a local authority to try to get him a cottage.

I think the Deputy is repeating himself.

I am saying that now because the Minister has just come into the House.

The Deputy said that last night. He appears to be going around in a circle.

It could not be said too often.

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will convey what I said to the Minister. I hope that when plans, specifications and schemes are submitted they will not be held up in the Custom House. If they are not held up there I am satisfied that the work will be got on with.

I would not have intervened in this debate at all were it not for the rather amazing, but perhaps customary, statement by the Minister for Local Government last night. Apparently, the Minister is now uneasy that we are going to be short of turf this winter, because, in panic, the Local Government Department have asked the county councils to cut as much turf as possible and have set the councils a target in that respect which county officials have been very clear in telling the Minister is impossible of attainment by them. The Minister feels that probably there will be some reaction from this under-production of turf and already he is engaged in the age-old task of "passing the buck," trying to pass on to somebody else the responsibility for an incompetence which is solely his. But, even if local authorities do not find it possible to attain the turf production standard which they have been set, so far as I am concerned I do not see that that is a cause for dismay in itself.

My view in respect of turf production is well known. I regard turf as a national asset, as something which ought to be produced to the fullest extent possible, as something which ought to be utilised to provide employment in the rural areas during periods of the year when there is no other employment available, and as a raw material which is capable of use and exploitation for many purposes of benefit to the nation. I think that local authorities ought to do everything that lies in their power to secure the maximum turf production possible. In this House I have, by speech and advocacy generally, supported proposals for the production of the maximum quantity of turf. Files in the Board of Works will clearly indicate beyond question my interest in schemes calculated to speed up and step up turf production. Views which I have expressed in this matter to the Minister for Industry and Commerce will prove beyond all doubt that, so far as I am concerned—and I think I speak in this matter not only for myself but for my constituents and my Party—I have been one of the keenest advocates of turf production in this country. The statement, therefore, by the Minister last night that I, or the Labour Party, was engaged in the sabotage of turf production is nothing more or less than a gross or deliberate invention on his part. If I were permitted by the Chair to say it, I would say that the Minister's statement last night was a deliberately calculated lie; but the Chair will not permit me to say that and I do not make that allegation in respect of his speech.

The Deputy is trying to get around it. He should not use the word "lie."

There is one strange thing about our rulings here and it is that the conventions of the House are being used to suppress the truth and prevent Deputies saying about certain statements what everybody knows ought to be said about them, and that applies particularly to the statements of the Minister for Local Government. Whenever anyone is wanted to hurl abuse, whenever there is a bull wanted for a china shop, the Minister for Local Government is always the first to volunteer; he and he alone can fill these rôles with an excellence not possessed by others.

On this grave matter of turf production, a matter which affects the lives and the standard of comfort and domestic happiness of large sections of our people, we had the bull in the china shop in excelsis in the Minister's speech last night. His speech was one of the most mischievous speeches delivered in respect of turf production. The Minister has chosen to lecture turf workers and to accuse them and the Labour Party of hampering turf production. He lectured people who are working on turf bogs in very inclement weather and under very arduous conditions, bogs which have not been seen by the Minister. Those are the people he accuses of hampering the turf effort.

That is quite untrue. I accused Deputy Norton's Party of doing it.

Do these people come from Cork, Kerry, Galway, Mayo and Donegal, to work on bogs in County Kildare under very arduous conditions merely to hamper the turf output? These people came there from various parts of the country in the belief that they were producing turf for the nation and in the hope that they would get decent conditions of employment and decent wages. The Minister accuses these people, who have left their homes and friends and who came to the turf camps in Kildare, accepting life under the conditions which exist there, of trying to hamper turf production. By doing so he is guilty of a scandalous misrepresentation of the position of these workers who are doing their best in the interests of national turf production.

I have not attacked the turf workers; I have attacked Deputy Norton and his Party.

Deputy Norton does not give a tinker's damn about you or all you may say from now until your last day on this earth. You can save your breath so far as Deputy Norton is concerned. Of course, when there is anything indelicate to be said, anything rough or boorish, anything calculated to be something that is not decent and proper, the Minister will always jump into the arena. We had him at his best last night.

There is a dispute existing between the turf workers, organised in the Federation of Rural Workers, and Bord na Móna. In accordance with the machinery set up by this House and supported by all Parties here, the Federation of Rural Workers, acting on behalf of the turf workers, took the case to the Labour Court. The case is at present being considered by the Labour Court and that court has not yet pronounced judgment on the claims of the workers. The matter is still sub judice so far as this House is concerned, but yet it was in circumstances such as those that the Minister thought fit to refer to the attitude of the turf workers.

The official organ of the Labour Party, on May 17th, when the case was still sub judice——

We will come to that in a few moments.

The Irish People, the official organ of the Labour Party, had the caption: “Ireland—Slave State.”

We have no captain of the guard. The Minister should be put out.

The Minister has gone mad. Is it not possible to administer bromide or some other form of injection to the Minister? There ought to be an official anaesthetist here for the benefit of the Minister. Look at his playboy antics. Not since Barnum came to town would you get worse.

The Deputy should be allowed to continue his speech.

The Minister will have to listen to what I have to say in any case. While this matter is being dealt with by the Labour Court, the Minister comes to lecture turf workers, and even to do more than that—to engage in a conspiracy to intimidate the court. He tells the court what he thinks of the turf workers and their production and what he thinks of the grievances of the turf workers.

What about the strike yesterday?

The Minister ought to allow Deputy Norton to speak; he is in possession.

Right, I will.

The Minister is asking the Deputy to make a correction on the point about attacking turf workers. He has to be corrected on that point. He did not attack turf workers.

The Minister, if he wishes, can have ten views about his speech. Nobody expects consistency from the Minister for Local Government, no matter what he says.

Let him tell it to the old ladies in Rathmines.

Deputy Norton should be allowed to speak, even by members of his own Party.

If you would only stop that gentleman from making disorderly interruptions, everything would be all right, but that is an impossible task even for a man of your ability and physical proportions.

The Chair will do its best to ensure that Deputies will be allowed to speak without interruption and that there will be one Deputy's speech at a time.

Thank you. I was saying that the Minister's speech last night was not only a lecture to the turf workers, but it was also a deliberate and mischievous attempt to intimidate the Labour Court, to prevent them being unaware of the fact that the Minister for Local Government does not like turf workers and is not anxious to see a decision given to the turf workers which will constitute an admission that they had a grievance when they took their case to the Labour Court. Any verdict in their favour by the court will be an admission by that court that they had a grievance when they went there; that they were justified in pleading they had a grievance.

The Minister suggests that they never had a grievance and never had a right to plead they had a grievance. He is afraid the court will give a verdict in their favour because it would be an admission by an independent court, constituted as our Labour Court is, that these men have a genuine grievance and the court's recommendation will be designed to remedy it. I believe these men have a grievance. I want to say definitely, publicly and deliberately that they have. I believe they have a special grievance in that they get no payment whatever when they are prevented from working owing to wet weather. I believe it is a scandal that these men, in wet weather, should be obliged to stay in the camps, earning no wages, and compelled to pay for food. I think it is a scandal. I will say here it is a scandal and wherever I speak on this question I will also say it.

Is this intimidating the court?

It is not intended to intimidate the court. My views in this respect are well known. The court is not appointed by me, it gets no salary from me. The officials of the court can say what they like to me, but they are paid by you and your Government. I am not their paymaster.

Is this a reflection on the integrity of the court?

These men have gone to the court with their case. The court is entitled to hear their case and to pronounce judgment. I think the Minister showed his natural coarseness last night when he intervened for the purpose apparently of intimidating the court against giving a verdict in the men's favour so that he could come in here next week, or go to a dinner in the Red Bank next Saturday night, and say that these men never had a grievance all the time and the court had proved that by not giving an an award in their favour.

Would it not be well to leave the matter to the court to decide?

I am prepared to leave it to the court but the Minister's speech last night was not very helpful.

The Minister did not refer to the court last night, I think.

You can often do damage to a person without telling him that you are actually going to do it. The Minister said last night that I was encouraging a movement to hamper the production of turf, even to sabotage the production of turf, and gave the impression that, so far as I and the Labour Party were concerned, we were encouraging strikes amongst turf workers. That, of course, is a complete misrepresentation. The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, knows perfectly well what my record is in the matter of endeavouring to settle strikes. I settled numerous strikes on occasions when the Department of Industry and Commerce were not involved or where the Department of Industry and Commerce had actually failed to settle the strikes. I intervened to the Minister's knowledge and settled many of these strikes and was finally thanked for doing so by the Minister. These were strikes in which I was not personally concerned either as a trade union official or because the strike was in my constituency.

To be accused yesterday by innuendo of being responsible for any of the trouble that occurred in the turf camps is just sheer misrepresentation on the part of the Minister. It is more of the dirty political abuse which the Minister has on tap whenever he wishes to use it. Unversed in truth or in any decent manners in a matter of this kind, the Minister is skilled only in political blackmail. He hopes to silence my advocacy of the claims of these workers by threatening the nation against me. The Minister can do what he likes in that respect. He will not deflect me from the position I have taken up, from standing beside the turf workers or any other body of workers who feel that they have a genuine grievance. The Minister can go round with his ears stuffed and his eyes blinded to the profits made by his friends, the profits made by those with whom he dines. He can continue his abuse and his political blackmail, he can attack the turf workers who are producing turf for the nation but, as I said, he will not deflect me or the Labour Party from championing the claims of any workers who, we feel, have such a genuine grievance that they are prepared to submit this grievance to the arbitration of the Labour Court established under the authority of this House.

What I do in this matter is a matter for myself and my constituents. What the Minister thinks of my actions will not worry me. What my constituents think will guide my actions. They and they alone will influence the course of my actions and my advocacy, conditioned all the time by considerations of the public well-being and the public weal. The real source of trouble in the matter of the turf camps is the low wage policy adopted by the Minister for Local Government, the policy of paying grossly inadequate wages to people employed in the production of turf. The Minister's Department for years have sat like Caesars in the Custom House declining to allow public authorities to pay a reasonable wage to county council employees engaged in turf production. Many of these employees were employed in the production of turf at rates of wages which were about half the rate at which private persons were prepared to employ them. The Minister knows that; the files in his Department will prove that.

The Minister's low wage policy in respect of turf production by county council workers has been solely responsible for the trouble that has arisen in connection with turf production. All the time, the problem to be faced was a problem of low wages, the problem of underpayment for hard work well done under arduous conditions. The Minister's advocacy of and affection for low wages have produced in the matter of turf production an attitude of mind which has caused all the difficulties so far as turf production is concerned. The Minister's policy in that respect went even further and caused greater difficulties because the policy pursued by his Department in pegging down rates of wages for county council workers employed on turf schemes influenced the Turf Development Board, and subsequently Bord na Móna, in framing their wage policy, so far as turf camp workers are concerned. The Minister, as the villain in the background in respect of low wages, would not allow county councils to pay reasonable rates of wages and the Minister's attitude in this whole matter has influenced Bord na Móna in fixing their rates of wages. Because of the Minister's policy and its influence on the policy framed by Bord na Móna, you have trouble in the turf camps and in turf production generally. You will always have trouble when anybody seeks to enforce rates of wages on workers which they feel are utterly inadequate for the work which they perform.

I say that if there is a remedy to be found for the troubles in turf production in this country that remedy will be found only by abandoning the low wages policy and by giving the workers a wage to which they are justly entitled. The turf workers are human beings. They have human feelings; they have human needs and human rights. They cut and save turf under arduous conditions and they are entitled to fair treatment by the nation whilst they are doing it. I believe the nation wants to give them fair treatment because, after cutting turf for a whole year on the bogs in Kildare, a turf worker will go back to his own home with very few pounds in his pockets while many of the gentlemen who are engaged in the distribution of turf in this and other cities get pretty rich after a year of being engaged merely in the distribution of turf. It will be a long time before a turf worker owns a bog or before he can become a fuel merchant. It will be a long time at the present rate of wages before he will even own a lorry. He gets very little out of turf production; the gentleman distributing his products gets very much more.

So far as the worker is concerned, I stand clearly and definitely for his getting a decent wage. I stand clearly and definitely for his constitutional right to get that decent wage. Can anybody deny him that? He does not ask for more. Who says he is entitled to less? Only one person, the Minister for Local Government, in his ukases issued from the Custom House in an atmosphere which knows nothing about the conditions under which the worker performs his work and knows as much about what the poor unfortunate fellows get at the end of the season for their laborious work. The Minister's speech last night has done more to destroy any hope of winning the goodwill and enthusiasm of the turf workers in the effort to produce the nation's requirements in turf than anything that has happened in recent years. I regard his speech as stupid and the villainy of the circumstances under which it was made has done more to impede turf production than any other single factor this year. The Minister's speech has done more to retard turf production this year than a wet summer could have done.

In the course of the debate, we had many references to the county managerial system. In my opinion the success of the county managerial system depends to a great extent on the co-operation of local authorities with the manager and on co-operation between the manager, the county council and the Department of Local Government. Where you have good relations between the members of a county council, who are the elected representatives of the people, and the county manager, I cannot see how the people generally can be dissatisfied with the managerial system. If the county councils, in conjunction with the county managers, are anxious to promote certain schemes it may be that they are not getting the co-operation they would desire from the Department of Local Government. I am not going to criticise the Minister or the Department to any great extent. One of my reasons for that is that the country has just gone through a period of emergency, and it is only fair to the Minister to say that during that period he had responsibility for what were, in fact, two Departments—Health and Local Government. I do hope, however, that in the future the Minister and his Department will co-operate more fully and more speedily with local authorities in carrying through schemes which they put forward. The local authorities have in contemplation more schemes, better schemes and more expensive schemes, and what I am anxious to find out from the Minister is where are we going to get the money to finance them. I should like to hear the Minister indicate how the question of finance, which arises in connection with these schemes, will bear on the rateable valuation of agricultural land.

There is a growing demand both in rural and urban areas for more and better houses. Every local authority is at its wits' end trying to meet the wishes of those who are hoping to see good housing schemes in progress in the near future. We all know that there is a great scarcity of building materials, and that inevitably that scarcity will have the effect, for a considerable time to come, of slowing up progress so far as the provision of houses is concerned. Perhaps the Minister and his Department would use their influence with the Department of Industry and Commerce and see that rural areas will get priority in securing the materials that are essential for the construction and repair of houses. As regards the construction of houses I think that a better system of inspection should be in operation. Complaints are made from time to time that the type of cottage built prior to the emergency was not all that might be desired. While we are all anxious to see the home-produced article used in the construction of houses, I am inclined to think that the tiled roof is not as good as the slate roof. A lot of these tiles are not only porous but are inclined to loosen on the roofs, and, consequently, a very bad type of house is produced for the people. Many houses which are roofed with tiles cannot be recommended as good houses or as damp-proof. As regards the cottage building schemes that are in contemplation, I suggest that a better type of tile be used.

I suggest to the Minister that increased grants should be made available for those who are anxious to build houses for themselves. I refer now to my own area, and I want to say that I think it is a grand thing to see even workers building their own houses. It is regrettable that they are not given more encouragement. We know that housing costs have gone up more than 100 per cent. The price of some housing commodities has gone up nearly 200 per cent. Therefore, I suggest to the Minister that housing grants should be increased by at least 100 per cent. The Minister will agree that his Department is prepared to pay State grants to the extent of two-thirds towards the cost of house-building. Therefore, I put it to him that the type of people I refer to, those who are thrifty and have the ability to build houses for themselves, should be encouraged. If they are their efforts will tend to relieve the demands which are made on the local authorities to provide houses.

The position in my county is that the local authority is not able to cope with all the demands which are being made on it to provide more houses. It has under consideration at the moment a scheme for the building of 400 houses in the rural area. Demands for houses also come from rural towns, such as Lismore and the village of Ballyduff, which is a very important business place. No houses whatever have been provided in and around that village for the accommodation of the workers who make their living there. The young men who are prepared to build their own houses, and to whom I previously referred, come from that area. Not only should they get every encouragement to build their own houses by means of increased grants up to 100 per cent., but I think the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act should be operated by every local authority so that the loan accommodation which that Act provides might be availed of by them and others anxious to build houses for themselves.

As I said at the outset, the big question that arises in connection with all this is finance. We are all agreed that the provision of good houses is essential if we are to preserve and protect the health of the people. I have often considered the wisdom or practicability of diverting the proceeds of the Hospital Trust Fund to housing rather than to hospitalisation. Good houses would protect the health of the people and eliminate the necessity for increased hospitalisation. If the money were devoted to that purpose it would not detract from the support that is given to the sweep and I am of opinion that the money would be used to a better purpose. That object would have the support of every individual and the wholehearted support of those who would be inclined to speculate in a sweep and the local authorities and the State would be relieved of a large part of the burden of financing housing schemes.

In industrial areas, such as Lismore, Ballyduff, Portlaw—where there is a leather factory—many employees cannot get houses. They are doing their best to get them. They have made representations to me and to the county manager, but nothing can be done. The ratepayers would not be able to bear the cost. Cappoquin, Tallow and Dungarvan are all in the same position. The problem is one of finance and that problem could be solved by the method I have suggested.

I would suggest to the Minister that there should be increased provision for reconstruction grants. In outlying and mountainy districts, particularly, there are many old thatched houses. As a result of wheat growing there is plenty of material available and I would suggest that people should be encouraged to use the grants for rethatching, particularly having regard to the present shortage of other roofing material. I have seen a new house being built recently with a thatched roof. Such roofs are very healthy and keep the house warm. The use of thatched roofs should be encouraged particularly where people are not in a position to carry out extensive reconstruction.

I have made representations to the Department in connection with grants to urban areas. It is very unfair and unjust that people who are prepared to erect their homes in urban areas should not get a grant. In Abbeyside, outside Dungarvan, people went to the expense, during the emergency, of building their own homes and they then discovered that they did not qualify for a grant. That is very poor encouragement to private enterprise. The Minister would be wise to reconsider that particular aspect of the system. I submit that urban areas should qualify for grants and that that would encourage private building. I hope the Minister will consider the points I have made in regard to housing.

I shall next deal with the question of water. Every Deputy will agree that there is no part of his constituency in which there is not a demand for water schemes. I think the Department are rather slow in co-operating with local authorities in carrying out their schemes. In Lismore and Cappoquin— two fairly large towns—there is not an adequate water scheme. In Lismore we are depending on a private supply. In Cappoquin there are parts of the town in which there is no water supply. I understand a new scheme is on foot which will cost £25,000 or £27,000 and I would like the Minister and his officials and engineers to speed up that scheme so that an adequate supply of water may be provided. Time and again Deputies have advocated the provision of grants for the sinking of pumps. In certain areas the people are handicapped by lack of water. Those most affected are the wives of the working classes. In many cases people have to travel miles to get water. Any schemes that are submitted by the local authorities are submitted in the interest of these people and, if speeded up, will help to bring some satisfaction to them.

For the county councils, the upkeep and maintenance of roads is a problem that is second only to housing. I consider that the upkeep and maintenance of the main roads, at any rate, should be a matter for the State, taking into consideration that the local ratepayer is not to any great extent using the road. There is on these roads revenue-producing traffic, heavy traffic, and, therefore, if a big road scheme is being introduced, the roads should be maintained solely by the State. When the railways were being operated as an independent industry, they maintained their own permanent way. To-day, 90 per cent. of the traffic that was formerly carried on the railways has been diverted to the public highway. The railway companies are now relieved of the responsibility of maintaining their own highway and the responsibility has been shifted on to the shoulders of the unfortunate ratepayer. That is the reason why the main roads at least should be maintained out of State funds.

I would suggest also that all gangs employed by local authorities during a particular period be constituted as a permanent staff and in the winter months, instead of those men being left off and going on the dole or on unemployment insurance, they should be maintained as a permanent working staff for the council. By-roads with which the county council to-day have nothing to do, as the regulations bar the local authorities from working on them, should be dealt with. The regulations should be set aside and the work should be carried out, in order to give the national producers an opportunity of carrying their produce to the market and getting in machinery. In the Cappoquin area, at a place called Lyre, we have an area where producers are isolated completely from the outside world except by walking across fields and pathways. They cannot go by road and are completely isolated from the creamery, the church and the market, as the bridge was broken down by the recent floods. Coupled with that, the Forestry Department has refused permission to those people to go through a small portion of their wood, where there is an old passage, to bring a horse and car. They have refused the request made by the county council and by Deputies for that particular facility. I suggest to the Minister that a direction should go from his Department to the county councils that this work must be carried out as early as possible. In their own tin-pot way, even though isolated in remote areas, they are entitled to the protection that the State or local authorities can give them as regards roads and accommodation for travelling to market. They are citizens of the State just as we are in the lowlands and they are as much entitled to that protection as any other citizen.

In connection with tarring and the provision of a margin for horse traffic, that is a point to which the Minister and the Department are giving very serious consideration to-day. If a particular type of stone is used and the chip utilised for resurfacing roadways is of a rougher type than used before —a stone other than limestone—it will give a margin suitable for any horse. In my immediate locality, we have a type of red granite stone—I do not know its particular name—which has been applied for road surfacing and you can take the flightiest horse you like over that road and he will not lose the use of his feet. There is another type of stone outside the village of Ballyduff, a kind of brownstone. That road was resurfaced about eight years ago and it has borne a lot of motor traffic. I asked a colleague in the county council a week ago about it and I also asked the county surveyor if any surfacing had been done and I believe it is eight years since it was done; but I will guarantee that any man could ride a flighty blood horse over it to-day with safety.

Many people are inclined to think that a margin should be left—I thought so myself at one time—but I believe a margin would be more dangerous than no margin at all. There is a particular space outside the tar surfacing portion where the danger rests, as it is off that particular verge, where there is not enough chipping, that the horse comes down and an accident to the animal may occur. I suggest that the Minister issue instructions to all local authorities that the road be resurfaced to the fence, but that a rougher type of chipping be used, if not all over the road at least in the margin. I do not mean a very big chip. If the Minister sends some of his inspectors to the particular roads I mentioned, he will find I am speaking the truth. I have had experience in riding young horses and blood horses over those roads and I can do so with perfect safety. I assure the Minister, and I have assured the local authority, that that is true. It depends on the type of stone. It may have happened that, in the spring, on a particular portion, the tar may come over the stone in the hot weather but that will always happen and you will always have such a patch. If there is a uniform spray of tar and a uniform use of this particular chip, the Minister can rest assured that the road will be perfectly safe, even where there is an incline. I would like him to take a particular note of that or get in touch with the Waterford County Surveyor. He will find that what I say is perfectly true and can be verified by people using the road with horses in that particular locality.

There is another matter to which I would like to refer, which has had the attention of local bodies during the emergency period, namely, the question of making arrangements to have road workers and turf workers paid their wages weekly. There is a lot of dissatisfaction at present. Many unfortunate people are not in a position to budget over a long period and in fairness to those people it should be agreed by the Minister and by the local authorities to pay them every week instead of every fortnight. Particularly at the start of employment, in turf production and road works, it may be three weeks before they are paid their wages. Some ways and means should be employed to ensure that they will get their wages every week.

The allotments scheme sponsored by the Department during the emergency was, without a shadow of doubt, a very good scheme. It had its snags, one of which was that the Minister debarred a very useful type of individual from benefiting under it, that is, the man over 70 years of age. We all know that many of our old men to-day are very useful and active at that particular age. A man at 70 may be living with his daughter or son, who may be married and have a family. It would be in the national interest that that type of person, who may have time at his disposal and may not be otherwise gainfully employed at that age, should have an opportunity to look after a plot. He could do so in a much better manner, perhaps, than many of the allottees. I ask the Minister, in the national interest, for the production of food, that the men over 70 who are old age pensioners should be allowed to be selected for plots. They are, as I say, a very useful type of people, with time on their hands, and, even though the plots are small, they are producing a certain amount of the food which is so essential to the nation. I believe furthermore that all workmen who are in a position to till a plot should get a plot at a nominal fee. It is unfair that some people should be debarred from getting plots.

I would suggest also a better scheme for the cultivation of the plot for consideration by the people responsible for the allotting of these plots and the selection of allottees. I have often suggested locally that they take the ground required to meet the demand for plots, and that, during the period of cultivation, the plots be sown, because, to my mind, a lot of bad work is being done. When the ground is being ploughed up is a useful time to sow all the plots. It would eliminate a lot of trouble for the workers who have to try to do this work after their ordinary working hours and it would not increase the cost of cultivation at all. Many of us are aware that potatoes are often put under the plough and that in most cases they turn out as good as, and maybe better than, they would turn out if put in drills or ridges, and I suggest that local authorities be instructed, when taking over these plots and selecting the allottees, to sow the potatoes when the land is being ploughed. It will help to improve conditions for those tilling the plots and to increase the production of essential food.

I do not want to dwell too long on turf production which has been often and extensively discussed in debates on other Votes, but I want to appeal, as I have on a few occasions already appealed to different Departments, for the provision of huts for the workers on the bogs. Our local county council has done so for its own men, and I have advocated that private turf production should get as much encouragement as possible from the Department and the local authorities. The people concerned are quite prepared to pay a nominal fee for the use of these huts during the producing period and I suggest again that the Department get in touch with the Department of Defence with a view to getting these shelters provided for those engaged in this very important industry.

There are some matters on which I wish to say a few words as a Deputy representing a fuel producing area. I believe, as the local authority in Galway believes, that it will not be possible this year to reach the quota of turf production reached in Galway last year. We were accustomed to harvest two crops, but, this year, we will be able to harvest only one and I am very much afraid that the quantity produced in Galway this year under the local authority will not be much more than half the quantity produced last year. I can safely say that the most we can possibly do is to turn out 75 per cent. of last year's quota and on that account, I think that private production should be carried out at a greater rate than at present. In that respect, too, there is a drawback because we have now almost reached the 1st June, a time at which the private producers generally have completed their cutting, but this year it is only now that the private producer, the tenant farmer with his piece of land, has finished with his crops and is getting into the bog, so that, in my opinion, there will be a great discrepancy as between the amount produced this year and the amount produced last year and in the years before.

I find that, to a certain extent, Departments do not co-operate as they should, especially in a national emergency like this. Three weeks ago, I had a letter from some constituents of mine telling me about a certain bog in the area of Moylough, County Galway, on which nine or ten tenants used to cut turf. They paid the owner a certain rent each year and some of them have been cutting there for a period of 70 years. Some time last year, that bog was sold to another individual, and the new owner, even though he was approached by these nine tenants on several occasions, told them he did not propose to set these turf banks in the coming year.

Would the Deputy enlighten the Chair as to whose responsibility that is?

We are dealing with turf production and I am referring to a certain discrepancy in production which could be avoided. I understood that it was a matter for Industry and Commerce——

That is precisely what I want to know.

——but when I got in touch with the Department some three weeks ago——

The county surveyor could acquire the bog.

For county council purposes, but not for private producers.

He could relet it.

Why should he? This bog had been used by private producers. Why should he touch it?

He has power to do it.

Even though Industry and Commerce have power to compel this owner to allocate the banks, no later than to-day I had a letter saying that they have not yet moved in the matter. That is one instance of the way in which fuel production is being hindered, and I suggest that the Minister might possibly be able to prevail on his colleagues to do what I have failed to get done.

It is the county council.

One matter to which the Department should turn its attention specially is timber, and, for the coming year, the Minister should do everything in his power to see that all the timber possible is cut down for fuel.

Is that a matter for the Minister for Local Government?

It relates to fuel.

Has the Minister for Local Government anything to do with timber?

It is a matter of fuel supply.

It was raised on the Estimate for another Minister's Department.

I do say, Sir, that there is a strike of turf workers in the camps. These unofficial strikes are to be very much regretted. I do not think that they are of any advantage to the people who go on these unofficial strikes. At the same time it is my view that, to a certain extent, the Labour Court had a right to give its decision before this and probably this strike would not have gone on at all. I appear, Sir, to be very much out of line on a few points——

The Deputy is. He should confine himself to matters under the jurisdiction of this Minister. The question of timber was raised at length, as the Deputy is well aware, on another Estimate.

Is not the Minister responsible for fuel?

He is not. He is responsible simply for bogs taken over by the county council.

For all turf for sale?

No, he is not. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is responsible for what the Deputy referred to. This Minister is not.

I have given my view. I believe that it is not possible for us to reach the target of last year by any means. I think that if we in Galway get 75 per cent. of last year's quota it is as much as we will ever get. I wish to refer to another matter. I intended to put down a question but then I decided to wait for the Estimate. I refer to the election of local bodies which is, I think, under the Minister's jurisdiction. I cannot understand why local elections are held once every three years. I cannot see any sense or reason in it. I would ask the Minister to consider seriously that for the future the life of local bodies should be at least five years. At the moment, under the managerial system, they have very little control. It is only nonsense to run these elections once every three years. There are other Deputies who wish to intervene in this debate and as the Minister hopes to get in to-day, I will not occupy any further time.

With regard to the position of the county councils in connection with the turf business for the coming year I do not believe there is any hope that anything like the quantity produced last year will be produced this year in any county and, therefore, a special appeal should be made to private owners to cut their own turf and timber for fuel.

I want at the outset to address myself to the problem of housing. We had a comprehensive survey from the Minister of our housing problem and I understood him to say that we would be very lucky if, within 20 years, we completed the job of housing our people. That means that it will take 20 years to provide 61,000 houses for our people. That is a poor and gloomy prospect for people already in possession of houses that are in a dangerous condition or for those who have no house of any kind. I feel the Minister is taking a gloomy view of our housing situation if he cannot promise something better than the completion of the job within a period of 20 years. I want as an immediate solution to suggest that all luxury building should be stopped.

I do not control it.

The Minister may not control it but the fact is that luxury building is eating into our building materials to such an extent that the local authorities find themselves handicapped and in many cases unable to proceed with their schemes.

The Minister has no power——

I agree. I am sure, however, that the Minister has sufficient influence with his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, to try to get some system of priority whereby housing by local authorities will receive a definite priority over all other building. It is monstrous that luxury of any kind should be tolerated when there is such an acute demand for the housing of our people everywhere, both in urban and rural Ireland.

My second point as regards housing, either by local authorities or private enterprise, is that there should be some form of control of the quality of materials being put into these houses that are being erected at present. I have reliable information that at the present time houses are being erected with materials which cannot be described as anything better than muck. In many cases private builders are unable to give any guarantee, not even a six months' guarantee, of the lifetime of these houses. In some cases the only warranty they will give is 12 months. Fancy the position of an individual who has to raise a loan to buy a house to set up for life! He cannot get anything better than a 12 months' warranty and, mind you, that warranty will be forthcoming only from a limited number of builders. I want to suggest seriously to the Minister that we have a very grave problem in this matter of building, particularly by private builders. I do not know if it is the Minister's responsibility but I feel that legislation should be introduced.

The Deputy cannot advocate legislation on an Estimate.

I agree. It is, however, very difficult to address oneself to this problem——

Possibly, but the limitation was not fixed by me.

There is no provision at the moment by which a warranty may be forthcoming other than by private agreement which is in many cases impossible to get. I think that we must face up to the position whereby a warranty shall be given with every house erected—a warranty as to the materials and as to the construction. I feel that unless that is done we will have a horrible problem here inside the next ten or 20 years. Many of the houses going up to-day will not last anything like that time. They may last at a terrific expense imposed upon the individual who is foolish enough to buy them. In all our housing policy we seem to address ourselves largely to the problem of housing the worker. Conditions have so altered to-day that the white collar worker, the lower-class official, the young professional man starting out in life, finds himself in an impossible position. Pre-war it was possible for these classes to go to a building society or to a loan society and, by perhaps putting down a deposit of £100 or £200, raise a loan to buy his house. That type of individual finds himself to-day in the position that the deposit, if he can get it at all, is so large as almost to equal the pre-war cost of the house. That particular type of individual is being squeezed out. His position is impossible. Most of them find it impossible, unless they have been left money by their parents, to set up house to-day. I see an acute problem arising from it and we must address ourselves to it. I feel that the time is fast approaching when facilities must be provided for these people, if necessary, by the State. I think these people are entitled to consideration. They are the back-bone of our community in many ways, and I am strongly convinced that in all future schemes by local authorities a certain proportion of the houses erected by local authorities will have to be earmarked for that type of individual. I do not know what the percentage might be. I have not worked it out, but from 5 per cent. to 10 per cent. of public buildings should be earmarked everywhere for that type of individual. Otherwise, I feel that we shall be creating worse problems for ourselves in the not distant future.

Of the 61,000 houses to be erected over the years, more than one-third will be erected in Dublin City and County. Since we have in Dublin City and County between one-fourth and one-fifth of our entire population, I seriously question the wisdom of still further concentrating our people in that area. I have argued this matter before on other Estimates and I do not want to dwell upon it now. When one realises that between one-fifth and one-fourth of our people are in the City and County of Dublin, that one-third of those employed in productive industry, one-fourth of those engaged in administration, between one-third and one-fourth of those engaged in commercial enterprise and between one-third and one-fourth of those engaged in the distribution of goods are concentrated in the City and County of Dublin, one must admit that there is a problem to be solved in this regard. We should ask ourselves whether or not we are wise in concentrating the population further in this area and whether we should not evolve some system of decentralisation whereby industry, in particular, would be located in areas where land is cheaper and where, perhaps, labour can be had more cheaply. That is a big problem. It affects our entire housing situation. It is not the Minister's direct responsibility. Nevertheless, I think that I am entitled to mention the matter as one of the factors which have a serious effect on our whole housing policy.

Houses are allocated under regulations drafted by the Minister's Department. So far as I am aware of the operation of these regulations, the emphasis seems to be all the time on providing houses for people suffering from bad housing and, particularly, for people suffering from disease such as tuberculosis. We are inclined to neglect the more serious, if you like, problem of providing housing for industry. We are not taking into consideration the labour demands of a particular area so as to provide suitable working-class houses. In Dún Laoghaire Corporation, we tried to distribute our houses on an equitable basis but every time we seemed to be getting into the system to which I have referred. These acute medical cases arise and we have to scrap our list and promote people who were not, perhaps, on the list at all.

Mr. Corish

Are the regulations made by the Minister?

The housing regulations are made by the Minister. I could cite cases which have happened under this system. I am not blaming the Minister in any way but the question is one deserving of serious consideration. Take the case of a labourer's cottage in the country which is badly needed by an agricultural labourer. The farmers of the area may need his services. When a cottage becomes vacant and the labourer is about to move in, an acute case of tuberculosis may arise. The sufferer may be a tinker who has just come into the area. That individual is housed in the cottage to the exclusion of the local labourer whose services the farming community want. After six months in the cottage, the tinker may die. His wife and the children are left in the cottage.

Mr. Corish

There would be other considerations.

These are the considerations that arise. What I am trying to emphasise is that the system is a bit rigid in that way. I think that the Minister would be well advised to recast it so as to give wider scope to the officers engaged in the allocation of houses. I should be inclined to balance the health problem against the local employment problem. In many cases, it happens that, when we are about to solve the employment problem, this other situation crops up. I know that it is very difficult to deal with the matter but I think that the local authorities, the medical officers and the managers should be given a wider discretion so that they could balance the two considerations and decide what is fittest to be done. I do not know if I understood the Minister correctly to say that the completion of our housing programme would be a matter of 20 years——

What I said was that it would not be done unless we had the co-operation of the interests concerned.

I agree with the Minister entirely in that. Building contractors, particularly, have a duty to the community in respect of the quality of the materials they provide. Some system of supervision will have to be introduced whereby these people will not be allowed to exploit the community. Numbers of people are rushing into the building business because of the acute appreciation in the price of houses. People who had no previous experience of, or contact with, the building business are now rushing in so as to get rich quickly and they are not concerned with what they put into the houses. These people are in the business simply for exploitation. Individuals of that type will have to be regarded in an anti-social light and their activities restricted so that the general builder will be able to carry on without rivals of that kind.

On the question of design, I agree with the Minister that it is desirable to have the widest possible variety of design and that housing schemes should, where possible, be fitted into the local landscape. As a matter of urgency, it might be well to consider whether we could not formulate a limited number of standard schemes which it would be possible to adapt to local conditions. I entirely agree that it would be wrong to have a couple of schemes and to slap them down everywhere. In my own constituency I have seen where a certain type of scheme was fitted in anywhere and everywhere. The effect is monstrous. At the same time, I believe that a certain amount of expedition might be achieved if we could arrive at six or eight standard schemes. It should not be beyond the resources of our architects to adapt them to local conditions. If we could arrive at standard schemes, and standard houses under those schemes, it would expedite the progress of building.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Tuesday.
The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 3rd June, 1947.
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