I gave notice to-day that, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I intended to raise this matter on the Adjournment. I want to ask the Minister for Agriculture if, in view of the action taken by the Irish Bacon Curers' Association in reducing substantially the price to be paid to producers for pigs, he will state what action he proposes to take to deal with the chaotic conditions in the pigs and bacon industries, to ensure greater stability, to safeguard the interests of producer and consumer and to provide for reasonable profit margins for curers and distributors. I first approached the Ceann Comhairle to-day to seek his permission to raise this matter as a private notice question, and he informed me that I could raise it in that way only if it were a matter of urgent public importance and that he considered it was not a matter of urgent public importance. I said to him, in reply: "If you had a batch of pigs out in the market this week and had to take a cut of over 30/- per cwt., would you consider it a matter of urgent public importance?" But the Ceann Comhairle was not interested in marketing pigs this week, and decided that it was not a matter of urgent public importance.
Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Price of Pigs.
Is this a criticism of the decision of the Ceann Comhairle?
It is in order.
Do not mind him. The Ceann Comhairle very graciously permitted me to raise the matter on the adjournment to-night. The House is aware that, over the week-end, the bacon curers announced that they were now going to offer the price of 160/-per cwt. for pigs, and the price which has been in operation, according to the advertisements, is 190/- by Donnellys, a similar price being quoted by McCarrons. I am aware that pork butchers have been paying as much as 200/-, and 184/- is mentioned in the pamphlet circulated by the Irish Bacon Curers' Association. In the final paragraph of that pamphlet, the bacon curers say that this action is being taken on the advice of the Government. They state:—
"In the circumstances, we have no alternative but to carry out the advice of the Government and have accordingly agreed to fix 160/- per cwt. as a maximum price to be paid for pigs by our members. This is the highest economic figure possible with bacon at the present price. We cannot accept any responsibility for the results."
They are not accepting any responsibility for the results and evidently they fix the responsibility on the Government.
I am not interested in the welfare of the curers; I am merely concerned with the interests of the producer and the consumer, and I feel that, if the industry is to be properly served, we must ensure stability and security. A shock of this sort to pig production is certainly not in the interests of the industry, and I am anxious to have the matter brought to the attention of the Minister and to give him an opportunity of telling the House what he proposes to do in the matter.
Fancy at this time of the year, when producers are mating their sows with the intention of having young pigs in the fall for the new potato crop, this arbitrary decision being made—a reduction of over 30/- per cwt. when bacon is acutely short! It is not unreasonable to prophesy that it will have the effect of driving more pigs into the black market and putting more bacon under the counter.
I am aware that the curers made representations to the Minister's predecessor and to the Department. They contend that adjustments as between curer, wholesaler and retailer could substantially ease the problem, without increasing the price of bacon and without any substantial reduction at all events, in the price of pigs. The Minister is aware that, under the fixed price in operation at present, 10/- per cwt. is allowed to the wholesaler for handling bacon, and that, on the basis of the fixed price for retail bacon, ranging from 1/2 for the cheapest cut to 3/2 for the best cut, back rashers, the profit of the retailers works out at 25 per cent. That is an outrageous profit to allow the distributing organisation to take on bacon. I feel a certain amount of sympathy with the curers who have had to go into a market which was acutely short of supplies and buy in competition with those able to pay higher prices, and it is inevitable that what has happened should have happened.
I am not here on behalf of the curers. I suppose Deputy Moran would claim to be the spokesman of the curers here, as a director of the Castlebar factory. He has made representations with regard to a certain aspect of this matter, so far as illegal curing is concerned, but I wonder what the attitude of the Minister and his Department is. This group of industrialists, according to the findings of a commission away back in 1938, had collected profits in excess of what they were entitled to, in the opinion of the commission, to the extent of an aggregate sum of £308,000. The report of that commission says:—
"The suggested standard of profit would represent in 1934 1/8¼ per cwt. of bacon produced against 1/10¾ per cwt. taken by curers. The excess profit taken was approximately £10,000."
They add that the excess profit taken in 1935 was £39,000; in 1936, £207,000, and in 1937, £52,000.
Representations were made from this side of the House at the time that some action should be taken on the report to see that the moneys taken in excess of legitimate profit were refunded. No action was taken, and I felt that the Minister possibly thought that when the tide turned against the curers, as they had had a good time before—and, as a matter of fact, according to this report, they took profits to the tune of £308,000 in excess of what they were entitled to —he could now let them, in the changed circumstances, repay that amount. I felt that that might have been the attitude of the Minister at one time, but I cannot reconcile that with his attitude now. It cannot be the case, because he has advised the curers to fix an arbitrary price to suit themselves. I feel that the conditions in this important branch of Irish agriculture are utterly chaotic. It is clear that killings have fallen. A very substantial quantity of bacon is going under the counter and being disposed of in illegal fashion. The killings for the first week of 1946 numbered 6,895. The figure for the corresponding week of this year was 4,665. For the second week in May the killings were 7,540 in 1946, and this year, 4,385. For the third week the killings were 6,478 last year, and 3,882 this year. For the fourth week the killings were 6,228 last year, and 5,806 this year. They went up slightly, because some people anticipated that action of a drastic type was about to be adopted.
Notwithstanding that substantial fall in killings in factories, I am aware that, in Show week, there were ample supplies of bacon in the city hotels, which were crowded out. I am informed, too, that bacon is available in the black market at 4/- per lb. I am wondering if the Minister wants fewer pigs in the factories. If he does, he will approve of the action taken by the curers to drive the pigs into the black market.
The White Paper published some time ago on the pig and bacon industries suggested that we should aim at a production of 800,000 pigs, representing our requirements in bacon, and that we should not have any ambition to produce more than that number. It was suggested that we could control the number of pigs produced by price manipulation. When the numbers tended to exceed our requirements, a fall in production could be secured by a drop in prices. If the fall was too acute, by raising the prices production could be increased and stabilised around 800,000. If that doctrine be sound, we know the stabilising effect this drop of 30/- a cwt. will have on the production of pigs in the coming year. Production represents at present about 50 per cent. of the nation's requirements. At one time, before the war, we supplied our requirements of bacon and had an exportable surplus of 500,000 cwt. Ten years before that, we had an exportable surplus of 500,000 cwt. of bacon and 500,000 live pigs.
Since the present administration came into power, this industry has been completely muddled. We were told that they had a plan for the industry, that they would control the industry, and that they were setting up a commission to regulate and bring to it greater stability. We heard a great deal about planning for pigs from the Minister's predecessor. If the plans were directed to reducing the value of the industry and almost destroying production, more effective methods could not have been adopted. The record of the Minister and of the Ministry is one of dismal failure. However, I do not want to blame the present Minister for that situation. I am merely stating what is beyond challenge. The history of pig production here is a sorry one. It is unfortunate that production has reached so low a level at a time when the commodity is so very valuable throughout the world.
I asked for an opportunity to discuss the matter to-night in order to bring the Minister's attention to bear upon the problem and to give him an opportunity of telling the House what he thinks about it. I am sure he is anxious to promote the interests of the pig industry. If those interests are to be promoted, we must have stability and security. We cannot have shocks of this type affecting the industry. They are bound to have a detrimental effect. They will drive pigs into the black market and prevent many sows from being mated for future production. Some of them will, probably, be sent to the factories. It is the Minister's responsibility to ensure that adverse fluctuations of this sort will be eliminated and that the interests of the primary producers will be fostered and secured. The industry is in so delicate and chaotic a condition that it requires the closest attention. The Minister must face up to that situation. Bacon is bound to be scarce and dear for many years. We have heard a great deal about our exchange problems and we have been told by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that the country must either export or perish. The high percentage of small farmers we have who are in a position to produce pigs when ample supplies of feeding stuffs are available furnishes us with the means of substantially expanding our exports. I am sure the Minister appreciates that and farmer Deputies are very anxious to hear what he has to say on the matter.
I ask for permission to say a few words on this matter, as it is of great interest to me and to the people whom I have the honour to represent. As the Minister is aware, we have several factories in Waterford and the people there are in a state of bewilderment so far as the bacon trade is concerned. We all recognise that the curers cannot be blamed, because they are acting in accordance with an Order which they cannot disobey. The Order is that they pay 160/- per cwt. for pigs. We are told that offers of 190/- a cwt. come from the black market. I am interested in having the factories maintained and the people retained in employment.
It is very drastic to threaten to close down a factory but those concerned have not only had to do that but they say that they will have to close down within the next week or two weeks. It is that which has brought me to my feet. The people concerned are in a very distracted state of mind but they have no alternative. It would be disastrous for the employees of these factories if such a thing were to happen. I ask the Minister to bring about some revision of the bacon trade which is in so chaotic a condition. I feel that the pigs and bacon marketing board, as it now exists and as it previously existed, failed to grasp the situation as it should. I would ask him to have it revised and have something done for those who are vitally concerned in the industry on which many people are depending for their livelihood, such as pig buyers, factory owners and employees. We must face facts now. This is 1947 and we cannot keep on fooling ourselves as we have been doing in the past. I ask the Minister to have a revision made of the whole industry. People cannot be told just to pay 160/- per cwt. for pigs when pig producers can get 190/- in the black market. We cannot say that these people want to go against the Government. It simply means that people want to make money and we cannot blame them too much for doing that. There must be a revision of the Pigs and Bacon Commission as it is now constituted.
I agree with everything Deputy Mrs. Redmond said. In Enniscorthy the bacon factory workers are under notice which will expire on Friday next. I also understand that some workers have already been laid off in the factory in Wexford. The Minister should do something to keep the factories open.
I think it will be agreed that this is a most unsuitable occasion on which to raise a matter so important as this, which it would take a fairly considerable time to deal with. I have some sympathy for Deputy Hughes, as I am sure he found it very hard to know what sort of case he should make. I think he was perturbed with regard to the position in which the curers find themselves, but, on second thoughts, he decided that perhaps that would not be a very good course to follow and he steered his boat in a different direction. Looking at this matter from the point of view that I expect Deputy Hughes would look at it, I am rather surprised at some of the statements he made. What I propose to say may not be pleasant for some people, but certainly it cannot be unpleasant for the producers. For the last four years at least there has been a producer's market and, being a producer's market, it should have been satisfactory from Deputy Hughes's point of view. Deputy Mrs. Redmond was in error, as was also Deputy Hughes, but he did not commit himself to the same extent, in suggesting that an order has been given to the bacon curers that they should only pay 160/- per cwt.
I did not make any such statement. I said it was an arbitrary decision on their part.
What has been suggested on all occasions when the bacon curers discussed this matter with me and with my predecessor and when Parliamentary questions were addressed to me and to my predecessor was that the wholesale and retail prices of bacon were fixed; that production was at a low ebb because the supplies of feeding stuffs were insufficient to induce farmers to go in for pig production; that as businessmen it was their job to determine the price they could pay for the raw material of their industry. There is no use in Deputy Hughes making the case for the producers that they should have it both ways. I contend that because of the limited supplies available it has been a producer's market. If that market has got a slight jolt, I do not believe that it will last very long. Surely Deputy Hughes would not suggest that I should be there as Minister for Agriculture with Government machinery at my hand to intervene at this particular stage.
I hope to have an opportunity when my Estimate comes up to deal more fully with this whole matter. I am sure it will be raised on that Estimate, and that will be a more suitable occasion to discuss it in all its aspects. Deputies have tabled motions in this House within the last two years calling upon the Government to reduce the tillage quota determined by the Government as necessary to feed our people and to provide as much food as possible for animals. Let those Deputies now tell me and the country how we could increase pig production and get it up to the pre-war figure when we were unable to import any foodstuffs to maintain these animals. That is a simple question which any Deputy can ask himself and tell me and the country what the answer is.
In the early stages when an effort was made to control and stabilise this industry, it was an all-Party effort. In fact, in my 20 years in this House it was the only occasion that a Bill was referred to a special committee of this House and I was a member of that committee. That effort was not successful, but it was a genuine attempt to do something for the industry. Those of us who are acquainted with the ups and downs of the market for pigs for 30 or 35 years had listened to our fathers talking about that market and saying that on one day pigs had been sold, say, at 55/- per cwt. and the following day in a nearby market at 45/-, and so on. That was the sort of situation which existed prior to the effort which was made to stabilise the industry. That was a combined effort on the part of all Parties in this House and was a genuine attempt to meet a situation which had existed in that particular industry for years.
As I said at the outset, this is a matter which would require more time for consideration than can be given to it now. I only wanted to answer a couple of misrepresentations that I thought should be answered here. There will be another occasion when my Estimate comes on, probably next week, to go into this matter more fully. In 1943, at the request of the bacon curers, the maximum price for pigs was converted into a minimum price. The bacon curers got what they asked for. The price of bacon was fixed, they were business men and they knew how to operate as between the price that was fixed for bacon and the price they could afford to pay for pigs. In face of that situation, I am sure the House will join with me in wondering what it was that induced Deputy Hughes to raise this matter to-night.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 10th June.