Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 1 Jul 1947

Vol. 107 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £12,300 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1948, chun Tuarastal agus Costas Roinn an Taoisigh (Uimh. 16 de 1924; Uimh. 40 de 1937; agus Uimh. 38 de 1938).

It will be noted that there is an increase of £12,000 in the Estimate, most of which, if not all, is due to the consolidation of the Civil Service salaries. I do not think there is anything that needs any further explanation.

Before I come to the Estimate proper, I would like to endeavour to enlist the sympathy of the Taoiseach in a matter which I think properly applies either to his Department or to the Government as a whole. As this is probably the only convenient opportunity of raising the matter, I would like to avail of this Estimate in order to do so. Many countries have found it desirable to establish what has been described as a civil pensions scheme. I think the proposal to establish such a scheme in this country has already got some, but perhaps rather perfunctory, consideration. Where these schemes have been in existence they have, in the main, been utilised for the purpose of providing pensions for distinguished artists and writers, many of whom, because of their love of art and their love of literature, have pursued paths which never brought them any great wealth, with the result that in a number of these cases when the writer or artist died he very frequently left his dependents in dire want. In Britain, in particular, the difficulties have been provided for by the establishment of a civil pensions scheme.

I think that in our circumstances the need to examine this whole question with a view to the introduction of a similar scheme here is made real—apart from any other fact—by a case which occurred recently. I do not need to go into the details of the case. I think it is just sufficient to say that some time ago this whole nation—not merely the nation at home, but also its far-flung millions elsewhere—mourned the passing of probably the most brilliant Irish artist that we have been privileged to see. By his passing his dependents are unfortunately the poorer, and have, probably, been left in circumstances which do not make it easy for them to face life in the future. This particular artist, who was internationally known, might, if he were interested in fleshpots or if he were not concerned with doing justice and credit to Irish art on the living stage, have been induced to go for the glittering prizes which are to be found in the American or in the British film industry. But he was not. By his decision in that respect he was much the poorer financially, but we and art in this country were much the richer. Death has unfortunately claimed him. Death has left his dependents in circumstances which now necessitate some steps being taken if they are to be spared actual want and actual privation. Those of us who have been thrilled by witnessing his display of talent in the interests of Irish art would all, I feel sure, like to do whatever lies within our power to mitigate in some small way the hardships which will be inflicted in that case. One may well ask whether it would not be better in a case of that kind for the nation as a whole to pay some tribute to the dependents of that gifted Irish artist by making provision for them through the medium of a civil pensions scheme, and thus in some way express our admiration for that artist's magnificent talents and, at the same time, record, by sparing his dependents suffering, our appreciation of the fact that he lived and died as it were on the living Irish stage—rather than be attracted to the brilliant prizes which were his for the asking—if he had gone into the film industries of other countries.

It is not easy to discuss a matter of this kind on an Estimate such as this, nor perhaps would it be desirable to do so in detail. I want to try to invoke the Taoiseach's sympathy for a project of that kind, the need for which is now keener than ever, because of the rather poignant circumstances associated with the death recently of the brilliant artist I have in mind. I am satisfied to leave the matter there, knowing that in a case of this kind the Taoiseach will have the matter fully examined. I am hopeful that, on general grounds, and with particular reference to the present case, some scheme may be devised by which the nation, in such circumstances, may pay its meed in gratitude to one who was, certainly in our time, perhaps the most brilliant artist that this country ever produced. I want now to pass on to the Estimate proper.

This is the 15th Estimate for the Taoiseach's Department which has been presented to the House by the Fianna Fáil Government. They have been 15 years in office and during that period they had virtually unchallenged control over the nation's policy. I do not think that even the most carping critic would deny that during the greater portion of that period they received wide and generous support on all matters of vital social and economic policy. It is true that certain difficulties were created by the war period and I want to temper my criticism by a realisation of that fact. But even some of these difficulties ought to have stimulated us to apply ourselves more diligently than ever to a solution of many of our problems; whereas in fact we allowed these opportunities to pass unnoticed and we allowed ourselves to fall back into a position of inertia, when the circumstances, especially those created by the war from 1939 to 1945, ought to have stimulated us to greater efforts. But I do not want to consider the Government's policy or its inactivity in relation to the war period only.

The war has now been over for two years. I should think that every Deputy felt that, when the war had concluded in 1945, at least the two ensuing years would be utilised to galvanise into action all the resources of the nation with a view to ensuring that every possible step necessary would be taken as part of a comprehensive plan of national reconstruction and as part of a plan for industrial and agricultural expansion. Certainly, most Deputies, I would say, imagined that by now we should be well on the way towards implementing a vigorous policy of national planning, exemplifying itself in greater industrial production on the one hand and great agricultural production on the other and, generally, enriching the national estate and fortifying the economic, agricultural and industrial fabrics that we have.

How far we are from realising that hope was manifested recently by a speech made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in introducing his Estimates in this House. I said then, and looking at it in retrospect my view has not been altered, that the Minister's speech was a sombre one which contained, so far as he was concerned, a rather belated recognition of the fact that as a nation we had not developed our resources to a degree which made us shock-proof against world scarcities, or which made us independent of the more violent industrial and economic shocks which were likely to come from various parts of the world. Although two years have now passed since the war concluded, I can see no evidence of real expansion in wealth production here. Indeed, if one refers to certain national activities in the field of industry or agriculture, or in the field of employment or emigration, all the facts point to a very bleak picture indeed. A reference to some of these fields of activity will serve to provide abundant evidence of the neglected conditions of our national productivity, and serve, at the same time, to give us a picture of the long road which we must yet travel if we are ever to bring into the lives of our people the economic security which the world at large is feverishly planning to provide for its people.

Let me first look at the field of agriculture, which naturally concerns the entire population of the country, because out of every 100 persons gainfully employed in this country, 55 get a living in agriculture, showing clearly the importance of agriculture in the entire national economy. Here we are in this small country, with a small population, possessed of 12,000,000 acres of arable land capable of feeding almost 12,000,000 people, if effectively and scientifically exploited. Although we have 12,000,000 acres of arable land, some of which is the envy of every country in Europe, which with scientific exploitation is capable of feeding almost 12,000,000 people, we have now reached a stage in which, after 25 years of self-government, we have not sufficient energy to utilise the land to provide adequate food for 3,000,000 people. Not only can we not provide adequate food for 3,000,000 people, but although we have stopped the export of such commodities as butter and bacon, which proceeded on quite a substantial scale in other years, we have not yet been able to supply the home demand in these two commodities alone.

If you look at the general volume of agricultural production, as distinct from the value of agricultural production—and the value may be an artificial, illusory thing in present circumstances—you find that the exportable surplus in respect of agriculture is about 25 per cent. of the 1932 volume. Therefore, with all the activities in the field of agriculture between 1932 and 1939, with the artificial stimulus which agricultural production ought to have got during the emergency period, we are now in the position that our exportable surplus of agricultural products is 25 per cent. of 1932 in volume. Is it any wonder, therefore, that last year the gap between our visible imports and our visible exports was no less than £33,000,000? Somebody speaking for the Government in this debate, in the present circumstances existing in the world, the rigid control of currency, ought to tell us how long he thinks we can continue a national economy which gives us a deficit of £33,000,000 on our trade with other countries. As agriculture is our most important source of visible exports, judging by these figures it will not be long until we reach a stage when it will be extremely difficult to buy machinery and raw material unless our agricultural production can be stepped up, because any examination of our exportable surplus will disclose at once that our main exportable surplus, the goods which we must send out in order to buy the goods which come in, is composed of agricultural goods. They must finance our purchases abroad and, if we allow our agricultural surplus to deteriorate by an unplanned agricultural economy at home, then assuredly, in present circumstances especially, we will reach a position in which we will not have the goods to export which are so necessary if we are to import the things we need.

In the whole field of agriculture, I think there is presented before our eyes a classical example of the deterioration which can be caused by inertia, by want of objective, by an inability to bring to the service of agriculture the mechanical aids, the scientific devices, the credit facilities and the standard of life essential to induce workers to remain on the land. All that neglect in the field of agriculture has shown itself in the disinclination on the part of workers to remain in agriculture because they can get better wages elsewhere. A secondary consequence of that viewpoint on the part of agricultural workers, and of our own neglect of our agricultural possibilities, is that we are short of butter, bacon, bread, sugar and, in some areas, milk. All this in a country with 12,000,000 acres of arable land available to feed 3,000,000 people, if we only had the energy to apply ourselves to that task. Unfortunately I can see no feature in our agricultural policy that tends to arrest the progressive deterioration in agriculture, that tends to stop our agricultural produce being of less and less value as an exportable surplus, enabling us to buy elsewhere the goods which must be paid for if we are not to have a still greater decline in the standard of living at home.

Let us turn from agriculture to the sphere of emigration and here again a picture, bleaker if it were possible than the picture which confronts us in respect of agriculture, presents itself. An examination of the census of population for the years 1936 to 1946 shows that during that period the emigration from this country was 190,000 persons. That means that 19,000 per annum were exported, mainly to Britain, in those ten years. Of course, the rate of exportation was greater during the war years but altogether we sent 190,000 persons, according to the official statistics—my memory or my guess are not in question in this matter. According to the official statistics, 190,000 persons went away—not aged people, not mentally defective people, not people unskilled in industry or unversed in hard work, but persons who satisfied the tests which Britain imposed in order to admit them, namely, for admission to the British Army, the British Navy, into British agriculture, into the mines, into the machine shops and factories, where brawn and brain were called for on a scale that would test the physical endurance of the hardiest amongst us.

These were the years when we should have been building up a national economy here, capable of providing for our people a decent standard of living, but we were satisfied to allow tens of thousands of our people to find employment in Britain as we had no plan for providing them with employment at home. In the inter-censal years, from 1936 to 1946, the statistics show that births exceeded deaths by 175,000, yet at the end of the ten years our population was 19,000 less. Is there any country in the world, populated by white people, even remotely circumstanced as we are, that can point to as bleak and as miserable a picture of the export of human beings as can be seen by reference to the movement of our population?

Many years ago, long before prices had risen to their present level, it was estimated that every adult citizen cost the nation approximately £1,000 to bring him to the stage bordering on adolescence and manhood. Suppose we assume the cost to the nation has not increased since that calculation was made, we were engaged within the last ten years exporting, not agricultural produce in exchange for other commodities, but approximately £200,000 in flesh and blood that should have been retained here for employment; human flesh and blood that every other country is looking for; human flesh and blood for which we are not willing to provide employment at home. Apparently, we are quite satisfied to do that, because the question which I asked recently in connection with emigration shows that the emigrant ship is sailing with all its old-time vigour, that there are now more women going to Britain than at any time during the war period, and that the number of men going to Britain in the first three months of this year was greater than during the war years.

One has only to look at Dún Laoghaire or Holyhead to see masses of Irish men and women, who ought to be the pride of their nation striving for a better standard of living, leaving the country because they cannot get here the employment they were once promised by the Government. One has only to look at the papers to see the numbers of advertisements looking for Irish men and women. Miners, agricultural labourers, nurses, typists and all classes of craftsmen are wanted. Does anybody imagine that the British people insert these advertisements merely for the sake of having an advertisement in an Irish paper?

Does not everybody know that these advertisements are inserted and paid for, for one reason only and that is that they yield good dividends to those inserting them? They are paid for only because they bring a good response in the export of tens of thousands of our people. While production continues to fall, our vigorous manhood and womanhood are leaving the country. Not only are vigorous men and women leaving the country, but I have noticed recently a considerable movement of children and wives, after the fathers to Britain where the fathers are compelled because of economic circumstances at home to seek employment. Some time ago I had a letter from a constituent of mine in connection with her husband who was anxious to get a permit to enable him to seek employment in Great Britain. He finally got the permit and got employment there which he could not get at home. In any rationally governed country, populated by a rational people one would regard the separation of a father from his wife and five children as something undesirable in the national and social interest. But in this particular case, privations and poverty had driven this woman to such a state that instead of expressing the normal viewpoint of horror in circumstances of that kind, she wrote me a letter, because I was associated with the case, thanking me because her husband was able to go to England that morning. Could anybody find a more warped sense of human values than that children now are glad when their father goes to England and that a wife is glad that the husband is gone to England? That privilege may mean the keeping of two homes but at least these two homes have an assured income, because the husband has regular employment. It should be necessary to keep only one home and that man here at home would be creating wealth for the country, wealth which could be diffused amongst all our people in a higher and a better standard of life. The thing that worries me in this whole business is that, notwithstanding occasional expressions of mild regret, speaking more perhaps out of courtesy than of any real feeling in the matter, the Government generally looks on this whole problem with complacency, notwithstanding the fact that the continuation of emigration is denuding the country of the flower of its manhood and its womanhood.

Turning from emigration to unemployment it is still not a consoling picture that presents itself. How weak our industrial and economic fabric is, may be measured by the fact that we have exported 190,000 persons as emigrants within the past ten years but we still had 61,000 persons registered as unemployed on the 17th May. It is true, of course, that the number fell from 61,000 on the 17th May to 46,000 on the 1st June, but the figure did not fall because we had provided work for those knocked off the register in the meantime. It fell by the very simple device of the Department of Industry and Commerce issuing what is known as an Employment Period Order. When that is issued, it has the effect of denying employment benefit to unmarried persons who are registered up to the date of the issue of the Order. The effect of the issue of the Order in this particular case was that there were 15,000 fewer registered at the employment exchanges on the 1st June as compared with the 17th May. We reduce our number of unemployed, at least so far as statistical returns are concerned, not by providing more work, but merely by issuing a blanketing Employment Period Order, the effect of which is to give a statistical return which does not fully represent the unemployment position in the country.

If this country suffers from one evil more than another, it is the evil of the low standard of production. Here as everywhere else, the volume of production must determine the standard of life of the people. A nation can live only on what it produces for the very simple reason that there is nothing else on which it can live. On acceptance of the fact that production determines the standard of life for our people, we are driven unquestioningly to the conclusion that our standard of life is declining and declining rapidly and will continue to decline unless we can arrest the fall in production, and unless we can gear the whole nation up to a recognition of the fact that it is only by intensifying our production that we can ever hope to give our people a decent standard of living. If we are going to arrest the fall in production we can only do so by developing a policy of full employment at home, not full employment in Britain —a policy of full employment at home associated with a better wage structure, and with a deliberate and planned attempt to endeavour to raise the standard of life particularly in the agricultural industry. It can be done by the payment of better agricultural wages, by the fixation of minimum guaranteed prices for agricultural produce and by the exploitation of the land to the fullest extent that modern research makes possible.

I remember the Taoiseach speaking in this House on the 29th April, 1932, when he was asked to address himself to the question of unemployment and the steps to be taken to relieve the unemployment position at that time. Speaking here on that occasion the Taoiseach said:—

"It may be that with the present system, we cannot do the full work we would like to do but we are going to try. I am going to say this, that if I try within the system as it stands and fail, then I will go outside the system and I will go to the country and ask them to support me to go outside the system."

Clearly the Taoiseach has failed to get rid of unemployment, of poverty and destitution, but the Taoiseach maintains the system. Although we have had five general elections since 1932, in not one of them can I recollect the Taoiseach asking authority to go outside the system which prevented him dealing effectively with the unemployment problem. The Taoiseach has found another way out of his difficulties —to open the harbours and let 190,000 of our young men and women leave the country in ten years. We have still got another 61,000 unemployed at home. I wonder whether, having given the system since April, 1932, some consideration the Taoiseach is now satisfied that the system is all right, and if he is, will he explain to us why he has not found it possible, through the activities of his Government, to provide here for the tens of thousands of people who have been driven from this country because, under the system, and under the Government, they found it necessary to seek employment elsewhere?

If there was any evidence of economic regeneration at home, it ought to show itself unmistakably in two special fields, the field of expanding employment and the field of a better standard of living. Does anybody believe that there is expanding employment in this country? The only expanding employment we are providing is the expanding employment in Britain to-day, made more so by the ease with which large numbers of young girls can get to Britain and by the relaxation of the export of men for the mining industry in that country, so that, so far as expanding employment is concerned, there is no evidence of it here, and all the statistics in the world produced to prove the contrary convince nobody seeing Dún Laoghaire or Holyhead that our people are finding a greater measure of employment here than they formerly did.

A better standard of living for our people? Does anybody see that on the horizon? Does anybody find it easier to live to-day than ten years ago or does anybody find it easier to live to-day than even 25 years ago? All the indications are that so far as the masses of our people are concerned, the struggle for life is keener than it has been for a quarter of a century. All that is happening at home is that the standards of living of our people are being reduced day by day. Take the recent increases in the prices of tea, butter and sugar. These increases show that the ceiling of high prices has not been reached even yet, and that the public will have to prepare themselves for further shocks in the realm of high prices, because this Government is apparently unable or unwilling to control prices effectively or to deal in another way with the case of price increases which are outside their control.

Can anybody in this country, with its 12,000,000 acres of arable land, explain the circumstances in which it is almost impossible now to find a vegetable, except potatoes, in a working class household? I would invite some member of the Government to send representatives into working class areas to ask them when they were able to buy vegetables other than potatoes. You would not see a head of cabbage because of the scandalously high prices charged for cabbage. Cabbage to-day in a working-man's house is as rare as champagne in a workhouse. If anybody wants to find out the prices of vegetables, let somebody on the Government side——

Are those not matters for the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy?

The trouble is that they appear to be matters for nobody and that is why you cannot get cabbage.

The control of prices is a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

There is no control. Is not that the case?

I will not dwell on the matter, Sir. I was merely trying to let the Taoiseach see the colours of the picture he is painting on the canvas of the Irish people and at the same time see the blisters he is raising on the backs of the Irish people because of the ineptitude of his Government and its inability to take steps to control the cost of living in this country.

But look at the other side of the picture—prices of commodities like essential foodstuffs have been allowed to rise in a way that gives rise to doubts as to whether there is any really serious effort to control prices. Look at the picture on the other hand. I saw a case in the papers the other day where a wholesale firm in this city whose shares were quoted at 2/6 in 1938, had its shares quoted now at 35/-. Was it because prices were controlled that the shares went up from 2/6 to 35/-? Get a stockbroker's list for 1938 or 1939 and compare it with the current stockbroker's lists. Take a look at the prices of stocks and shares to-day and ask is it because of the control of prices that shares have gone up or because those who had money to invest felt that the level of prices was such that they could make substantial profits, in some cases as much as 13 times what they were in 1939? That is just one of many instances of the kind that could be cited in this House.

Let us look at the field of housing. There is no worker to-day who can get a flat under 35/- or £2 a week. If it has the name of being partly furnished it may be £3 or £3 15s. 0d. Look at the selling prices and letting prices of accommodation and the extortionate demands that are being made upon the people seeking it in this city. I came across a case which I know from personal experience of a house built in 1937 for £650 and sold at that price. It was sold the other day for £1,950 and it is the general experience of any person who has had experience of this type of activity that houses which were £800 or £900 in 1939 are now selling at £2,500. People who want to engage in that type of activity can have their fill of thousands. Is there any suggestion of control from the Government?

A great deal of this difficulty in respect of these high prices for houses and high prices for shares has been brought about by the fact that our whole economy is being blistered by an inflow of foreign money which has completely disorganised the home market. Anybody can come in here from Great Britain with all the notes he wants and his activities are determined only by what prices will be paid and if he is sufficiently widely injected into the house building industry, the prices he offers will dislocate the whole economic equilibrium of the industry. While at all events we have pegged down the standard of living of the workers until it is lower than it was 25 years ago, we have done one thing of which we have no reason to be proud—we have built up a hierarchy of profiteers and financiers who are blisters on the back of the country. They have grown more vulturesome in the last seven or eight years than ever before and they are more numerous, and ironically enough, they feel themselves to be safer than ever. These gentlemen are thriving, but the masses of our people are being driven to emigrate because of our lazy and unplanned national economy.

Let us look at the position of the balance of trade which provides another indication of our whole national tendency. It is quite clear, if we advert to the figures of the balance of trade for the year ending March 31st last, that our imports were not and will not be balanced by exports, but they must be balanced by something, and if we import wheat and maize, tobacco and films from the United States, then we have got to pay for them. Firstly, we can pay for them by the export of an equivalent value in goods or, secondly, we can pay for them in sterling. Does anybody believe we can pay the United States in the export of goods equivalent to our imports from them? If we cannot pay in goods are we going to get sterling to pay for them? If these goods have to be paid for in sterling are they to be paid in that sterling which arises out of our current transactions with Britain? Is that the maximum quantity of sterling we will get or will we be allowed to use, for the purpose of our imports from the United States, such sterling as has already accumulated in Britain and in respect of which there would seem to be some doubt as to whether it may be made available by Britain to finance transactions which cannot be paid for out of sterling arising in current transactions? If we are only to be given such sterling from Britain as arises from current transactions what are we going to do in respect of our imports from other countries if we happen to have no favourable balance of trade with Britain and, consequently, no sterling assets to utilise for the importation of goods from countries other than Britain?

What do you suggest?

I have two suggestions to make. Firstly, we must improve our volume of production and, secondly, our volume of exportable production. That, in turn, will finance such goods as we have to import. My complaint is that after 25 years of native government we are now in the position that the volume of our exportable agricultural produce is only 25 per cent. of what it was in 1932. Notwithstanding all the artificial stimulus of the emergency, our volume of production in respect of agriculture fell during the same period.

This Estimate for the Taoiseach's Department provides us with an opportunity of asking the Taoiseach to reveal his Government's plans. Prior to 1932 the Taoiseach and his Government were allergic to plans. Since that time I have not seen much evidence of any planning in the field of industrial production, agricultural production, emigration or employment. I have seen less planning still in regard to the control of prices and in regard to the control of extortionate profits.

This Estimate provides the Taoiseach with an opportunity of revealing the Government's plans to deal with the undeniable problems which confront the nation to-day. If the Government has a plan then it ought to reveal that plan. Without a well-planned economy I believe the country will continue to drift and drift and drift. We must have a planned economy covering the whole field of national effort and inspired by a policy of full employment with a higher standard of living for our people. Otherwise emigration will be accelerated and the standard of life will fall still lower. Unless the Government is prepared to reveal its plan and apply itself vigorously to the task of national regeneration both as regards industry and agriculture this country will continue to be a Mecca for the privileged few, for the hierarchy of financiers and profiteers. For those of us who are left when the emigrant ship has taken its toll there will only be a lower standard of living and recurrent unemployment. That is the price which we shall have to pay for our inability to plan a comprehensive national economy, inspired by all the enthusiasm we can gear up. We will have a lower standard of living and recurring unemployment unless we take immediate steps now to seize all our opportunities and make the most of them. We should delay no longer in taking all the necessary steps to plan that life which will give our people something better than the emigrant ship and something better than the low standard of living that exists in agriculture and in the rural areas to-day. The time has come when we must make every effort to leave the bleak road we travelled in the past behind us by encouraging our people to get on to the broad highway leading to a better standard of living and more production. Production means an improved standard of living and we should endeavour to ensure that the brains and the brawn of our people will be harnessed to wealth-creating processes at home in order to make available more wealth and more goods for our people which are after all the only assurances we can ever give them of a better standard of living in their own country. I move that the Estimate be referred back.

In seconding this motion I must admit that I have very grave doubt, after a long experience in this House, as to whether any useful purpose is being served by offering any constructive criticism of Government policy or making what might be described as normally useful suggestions. I have sat here day after day for some hours during the debate on the Estimates. Looking at the small numbers who sit in the House during these discussions particularly the small number of Government Deputies—one is inclined to take that as demonstrating the lack of interest taken by the Government in the present position of the country. Every year I have listened when questions of international importance relating to foreign policy arise——

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present

The Taoiseach is quite right in reminding citizens of their rights under the written Constitution. This is the occasion when he should extend to the citizens the reason why they do not get these rights. I quote for the information of Deputies Article 45 of the Constitution—or part of Article 45—which I like reading and which, on this occasion, I will relate to the subject matter of this particular Estimate. Sub-paragraph (1) of Article 45 of the Constitution says:—

"That the citizens (all of whom, men and women equally, have the right to an adequate means of livelihood) may through their occupations find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs."

Will the Taoiseach, when he is replying to this discussion, relate that to the facts of the position? He should know them better than anybody else. Will he relate them to the position disclosed in this city at a recent meeting of the Sick and Indigent Roomkeepers' Society, with the Lord Mayor in the chair, and to this statement made by the Reverend J.J. Meagher at the 157th Annual General Meeting of the Sick and Indigent Roomkeepers' Society? Father Meagher, speaking with several other distinguished speakers, including three or four members of this House, representing different sides of the House, is reported in the daily paper of the 27th June as having said:—

"Recently, of the 34,000 working-class families in Dublin, 10,000 were selected for statistical purposes. It was found that of that number 2,500 families were living on incomes"— mind you, the word "income"—"of between 5/- and £1 per week."

He goes on to say:—

"Even with relief at its maximum, the people in receipt of that relief were scarcely in a position to live, let alone live comfortably and the first demand was to pay the rent."

Will the Taoiseach explain to the 34,000 families and particularly the 2,500 families—families, not individuals —what value that part of the Article of the Constitution I have just quoted is to them and how many of them with the present prices of bacon, butter, eggs, milk and vegetables can purchase any of these commodities? Surely to God if the Article of the Constitution is worth the ink and the paper it is printed upon it is worth something in the shape of bacon, butter, eggs, milk and vegetables to those who have to try to survive on the so-called "income" referred to by the reverend gentleman who made these remarks, based on fact. That statement can be made, too, with a certain amount of truth, when it is related to the position of families—perhaps not the same number of families—living in other cities and towns throughout the country. I doubt if any Deputy in this House, except those who do St. Vincent de Paul Society work—and I know a large number of them do—realises conditions under which a large number of our citizens of this city are living and in other cities and towns throughout the country.

Of course I can give other quotations to prove that, after 15 years of Fianna Fáil administration, large sections of the citizens are not getting the rights which they are entitled to get under this Constitution—this Constitution which I myself supported and voted for when it was put to the people. Coming back to the Taoiseach, I do not know whether it is desirable to remind him of the promises he made in this House after he became head of the Government 15 years ago. Speaking in this House on the 29th April, 1932, and responding particularly to severe criticism coming from the chief Opposition Benches the Taoiseach said in reference to taxation:—

"Every member of the community has to bear his part of the burden. Members on the opposite benches said that I went in for a hair-shirt policy. My answer was that theirs was a silk-shirt policy for some and a hair-shirt policy for others."

But here is the point:—

"If there are to be hair shirts at all it will be hair shirts all round."

I ask the Taoiseach if he will relate that hair-shirt policy to the proposal that is before the House at the moment to give the Chief Justice of this State an increase of £11 10s. 0d. per week— without application I presume—and to the recent action, condemned by some members of this House who did not understand it, of the turf workers in going on strike. Turf workers are doing the most essential type of productive work in this country. Why did they go on strike? They went on strike for a minimum wage of 24/- per week to enable them to pay for their keep in the camps built by the Government. Will the Taoiseach refer the £11 10s. 0d. per week increase to the case of these men who had to stay in the camps during the whole of the bad weather period at the beginning of this year and pay for their keep when they were not allowed to earn any money? Apparently the Government can stand over and defend asking the taxpayers of this country to put their hands in their pockets and pay £2 10s. 0d. per week average cost for keeping a soldier in communal conditions in barracks, for forming fours and doing other work of that kind, but we had to have a strike of turf workers in this country in order to get 24/- a week to pay for their keep in camps whenever the clerk of the weather lets them do the most productive form of work in this country.

I believe the Taoiseach has threatened the leaders of the trade union movement in this country that he will bring in legislation to prevent strikes. I am not an advocate of strike policy. I took part in a few strikes in my time—two of them for national purposes in connection with the anti-conscription strike and the Mountjoy hunger strike. The third was for recognition of the union of which I am proud to be a member. I am telling the Taoiseach that he is not going, by legislation, to prevent people, like the workers of the type I have just referred to, from exercising their right to strike when it means the right of living and when they are striking for the rights he has promised them under this glorious Constitution.

Deputy Dillon and other people of that type say these strikes are provoked by Communists. I suppose later on in this debate he will give some precise information when he talks in that way. It is the general charge made against workers whenever they decide to exercise that right. Their right to strike is generally exercised, so far as I know, only after a long period of consultation and communication with their employers. That was the position in the case of the turf workers but it was not allowed to be made clear to the public. If we have Communist agitators in this country— I say if—I would give the Taoiseach every encouragement to deal with them, and in a drastic way.

But these statements about the extent to which strikes have taken place here are not confirmed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce who told us that there is less loss of labour and production and a smaller number of days lost in this country owing to strikes over the past few years than in any other country in the world. However, I do not want the number increased. I think, however, that if we want to create an atmosphere where there will be no strike action resorted to we must, first of all, ask ourselves whether the turf workers, the agricultural labourers, the road workers and the other workers of that type have enough money to provide themselves and their families with the comforts of life, either clothes, food or shelter. I ask the Taoiseach whether, after 15 years' experience of government, he has confessed to himself that that is not so.

I heard Deputy McGilligan, who is a bit of a statistician, say here the other night—I have not any documentary evidence to prove it but he apparently had—that there are only 66,000 citizens in this State out of a population of 3,000,000 who have £6 or over per equivalent of £3 per week pre-war.

That would not break the banks, although the banks have doubled their deposits since the commencement of the emergency.

On a number of occasions in this House suggestions were made to the Government, when it was evident of course that there was no planning being done or no attempt to plan, that an economic council, consultative or otherwise, should be set up. I was one of the members of this group, Deputy Norton is another—it is evident now that we were deceived—who was persuaded before 1932 that the Taoiseach and his colleagues had a plan ready to put into operation immediately they came into office for the purpose of abolishing unemployment and developing the unlimited resources of the country; a plan which would not alone provide employment for all the unemployed at that time, but which would bring back some of the Irish from America. What has the Taoiseach to say about that plan to-day? He had 15 years to put it into operation. According to a speech he made in Longford last Sunday, they are now only starting to do any really serious thinking about planning. If the Government have no plan by which they will provide the means of livelihood promised under the Constitution to the citizens of this State, it is about time they got somebody outside to frame a plan in accordance with their own policy.

If I were in the Taoiseach's position, I would make certain that I had around me three or four people who would do the thinking, which naturally cannot be done in the way one would like it to be done by the Taoiseach, who is a very busy man, or by his Ministers who, if they do their work, are very busy men. Can anyone imagine the Minister for Industry and Commerce, or the Taoiseach, to mention these two in particular, having time to do the kind of continuous thinking and planning necessary to save us from the disaster that is facing us in regard to inflation? The Taoiseach, of course, has argued against such a council on many occasions. Does the Taoiseach believe that he can expect senior civil servants, who are running their own Departments and who are very busy men, to devote the time necessary to preparing a plan to put the Government policy into operation? I suggest that the Taoiseach, or the Tánaiste, or any other Minister cannot find that time. If they cannot and if they have not a plan then, for the sake of the people who cannot get a livelihood here, it is about time that they got someone to put it over. I suggest that they should set up an economic council consisting of three or five people, a small number of people, selected if you like from amongst economists or thinking men who share the Government's point of view with regard to policy. I am not asking the Taoiseach to put on that council people who are opposed to the Government policy. I do not want to be misunderstood in that.

Deputy Norton dealt fairly extensively with the question of the failure of the Government to control prices. I warn the Taoiseach—and it is a friendly warning—that there is plenty of trouble facing him if the Government do not take effective steps to control the prices of essential commodities. The price of vegetables is a glaring case in the City of Dublin, and also the price of clothing, boots and shoes. Ask any working-class person with a family of five or six children what it costs him to buy boots and clothes for that family if they are to be clothed with any kind of decency. It is well known —the Taoiseach knows it, and the Tánaiste knows it better than anyone else in this House—that there is wholesale profiteering going on in this city and in the country, particularly so far as clothing is concerned. The annual balance sheets of the principal drapery houses in this city are clear proof of that, and everything is not shown in a balance sheet or disclosed to the average man in the street. What good is it to a working-class citizen to get 10/- per week of an increase in his wages this week if the cost of living means that he will have to spend 15/-more the next week?

The real solution for this problem is drastic control of the prices of essential commodities. We have not faced up to that position. That is the real cause of the trouble whenever strikes take place. Any wage earner or clerical worker who has to live on a fixed income will tell you that he would far prefer to be back on the preemergency wage basis, although it was a very low scale, as compared with conditions at the present time. This country has been properly described as a paradise for profiteers and parasites. There is no country in the world that I know of where they are getting away with it as they are here. Proof of profiteering is to be found in the amount collected by the Government by way of excess profits tax since the beginning of the emergency. That proves that they themselves, by collecting between £40,000,000 and £50,000,000, are a party to this profiteering. I hesitate to think what will be the position this time 12 months if we keep going on as we have been going on since the end of the war. I suggest to the Taoiseach that a proper price-fixing tribunal, a civilian tribunal if at all possible, should be set up and given drastic powers; that they should be given power to imprison citizens who are proved to be charging excessive prices for essential commodities. That is the only thing which would stop these people from repeating the offence.

Some of us here were charged recently with encouraging emigration. I know of no member in this group or any member of the House who could be rightly accused of encouraging emigration. This allegation came from the Minister for Finance during the Budget discussion. I know of very few Deputies who have not at one time or another—I would be surprised if there are any listening to me—sent in a recommendation to the Department of Social Welfare for a permit for a citizen to go to Great Britain because he could not get a means of livelihood at home. I have personally in this House and on public platforms discouraged many of my constituents from going to Great Britain. An agricultural labourer gets £4 10s. 0d. per week in Great Britain as compared with £2 10s. 0d. here. Other workers are paid correspondingly higher particularly people engaged in house-building. But, although they have that higher rate of wages on the other side, they have not the same facilities as a worker even on a smaller wage here.

One thing that can be said to the credit of Great Britain is that the system of rationing in operation there gives to every citizen whatever ration he is entitled to. That cannot be said of the position here, as is evident from the statement of the Rev. Father Meagher at the recent meeting of the Sick and Indigent Roomkeepers' Society with regard to the 2,500 families living in rooms in the back streets of Dublin who could not get a ration sufficient to keep themselves properly nourished and in a healthy state. They could not get a ration on an income of 5/- to £1 a week.

I think the record is there to prove that, since Fianna Fáil came into office 15 years ago, 250,000 have had to leave this land because they could not get a living here for themselves and their dependents. That is a terrible state of affairs and I feel the Taoiseach will have to admit it is a fact. He had a plan in his pocket, or in the pigeonholes of some office, in 1932 but, notwithstanding the plan, 250,000 citizens had to leave the country. We all have to confess that it is part of our jobs, whether we are on the Opposition or the Government Benches, to take stock of the position. Those of us who talk to our people, and particularly to the rising generation of electors, must admit that they are losing faith in this House, in the Government and in all of us, because they cannot get a means of livelihood here. Too many of them have to line-up in queues for permits to go to a foreign country. We can stop that if we want to.

The Minister for Finance told us in the Budget discussion that there is money available here for every useful purpose. Why is it not being used? It is true that the bank deposits have more than doubled since the emergency, but neither the Taoiseach nor any of his Ministers has any effective control over the way that money is to be utilised. We are a republic of 26 counties, we are told, but the directors of the banks are the bosses of the Taoiseach and his Government so far as the issue of credit and the provision of currency are concerned. If you have money enough to spend on every useful purpose, why is not more being spent on afforestation, drainage and the building of houses? If you want to build houses, why do you not give some inducement to our bricklayers, carpenters, joiners and other skilled tradesmen who went to Britain, to come home and build in their own country for their own people and live with their families?

From the point of view of available resources, we are more powerful than most countries. Britain may have a bigger Budget, but she has a bigger national debt. A good national debt is a healthy thing sometimes, the same as a good overdraft is a good thing for a bank manager. I am sure it is the desire of the Taoiseach—and I cannot see why he does not take some steps to give effect to his desires—to feed, clothe and house our people. Indeed, it is our duty to do that. If the banks, operating privately for profit-making purposes, will not provide money at nominal rates of interest for that purpose, then it is about time that the Taoiseach and his colleagues took charge of the people who now are his bosses in the financial market.

We are not a republic as long as the bank managers and directors boss the Government. We are politically free, but not otherwise, not free to get the livelihood we are entitled to under the Constitution. I feel that my period of 25 years here has been wasted if we do not face this matter in the immediate future. We have let the thing go too far. We have to watch things and that is why I would like to see a body of experts advising the Cabinet. We shall have to step carefully or we will go down with those who are down or are going down around us. We are tied to the British currency system. Is any thought being given to what is likely to happen—I hope it will not happen— if the people in a neighbouring country get a bit of a jolt?

Currency will be the least of your worries if they do.

I read carefully the inspired articles in the cross-Channel Press and, to convince Deputy Dillon, I can quote from statements by British Ministers to show how serious the position is there.

Well I know it.

Tied as we are to the British currency system, if they go down we shall go with them. What thought is being given to that serious aspect of national policy? Can the necessary time be devoted by the Taoiseach, his busy Minister for Industry and Commerce and other Ministers, to the careful consideration which questions of this kind must receive under existing circumstances? I sympathise with the Government in the task that confronts them, but I should like to be convinced that they are taking steps sincerely to consider those matters. The sincerity of the Taoiseach and his colleagues must be in question when, after 15 years, we are faced with the present position.

One of the things that will help considerably to increase the cost of living is the increased cost of transport, which has an effect on the price of every commodity carried in a lorry or a railway wagon. The very life-blood of our transport, the railway system, is being paralysed without the authority of the people—at least, if there is authority to do it, I do not know who has given it. It was not given by this House and the Government had no power to act as it acted recently. When the 1944 Transport Act was first submitted to the Dáil it caused a general election, because the Taoiseach lost his temper when he was beaten by two votes on the Second Reading. He went to the people then but he did not tell them he would close down the branch lines and 70 per cent. of the stations on our main lines. Is it a fact that authority has been given to the Government-appointed chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann to close our branch lines without a public inquiry?

Has not the Minister for Industry and Commerce answered that ten times already?

This is a Government matter and it happened since the Minister's Vote was discussed here. What authority was there to close down 70 per cent. of the railway stations on the main lines, to divert the traffic hitherto carried by the railways to the roads and to increase the rates by 100 to 120 per cent. and by that means to increase the cost of living? I and my colleagues were summoned to a meeting in my constituency at the end of May to meet a representative of Córas Iompair Éireann to hear from him about the branch lines. He never worked on a railway for five minutes. He is a publicity officer, he knows nothing about transport and never worked in a transport office. We listened to him giving reasons why certain branch lines should not be reopened. I received a wire from the town clerk to attend the meeting and the message concluded:—

"Company's decision will follow meeting and will depend on whether satisfactory assurances of adequate traffic are obtainable."

When the Transport Bill was going through the House, both before and after the general election, not a word was mentioned about the prospect of closing branch lines or paralysing the main lines by closing 70 per cent. of the stations. In fact, the opposite was conveyed to us. We were asked for authority to create additional debenture shares for the reconstruction of rolling stock and the permanent way and also for the building of new stations. Now they are to be closed and I suggest it is being done without authority. It is nothing short of sabotage.

It cannot be done permanently.

An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

Does the Taoiseach deny that it is being done? He represents a constituency where it has taken place.

The Minister has given an answer to that question about five times recently but the Deputy will not listen to it.

The Minister has not answered the question I am asking: who has authorised Córas Iompair Eireann to close 70 per cent. of the stations on the main line? Who has authorised them to say that the continuance of branch lines will depend on an assurance of adequate traffic? Who knows the volume of traffic obtainable? Certainly not the publicity officer to whom I listened at a meeting I attended in Birr recently. You cannot close a public transport system in the same way you would close a publichouse. The people frequenting publichouses can do without what is sold there but you cannot do without a transport system. Supposing you decided to-morrow to close down the roads on the grounds that the commercial lorry owners were not paying a sufficient tax to maintain them, and that they were endeavouring to pass the buck to the ratepayers in general by making them bear the expense of maintaining these roads, would there not be an outcry in this country?

I ask the Taoiseach what would happen if there were another war and the railways were closed down. You were glad to have them during the emergency and you will be glad to have them again in a similar emergency. I say that you will be guilty of a crime towards the community if you close down the branch lines which feed the main lines and throw out of employment thousands of transport and railway workers in the country. I ask you to review the position and to convey your representations to the head of Córas Iompair Eireann before it is too late.

I raise this matter not in a spirit of political prejudice against the Government or against the Taoiseach. The Government are there by the will of the people. So far as I am concerned I am not a bit jealous of any member who has the responsibility of sitting on the Front Bench. He has a heavy responsibility and I think, on occasion, I have given some proof of my recognition of that fact. I am prepared to help the Government to do its job but let them start to do it and fit it in with the promises made, not alone 15 years ago, but repeated by the Taoiseach every time he spoke here during these 15 years.

The Labour Party have put down a motion asking that this Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. They have emphasised the economic difficulties under which the ordinary people live and indicated that in order to get out of these difficulties what is wanted is a plan to increase production. I understand from Deputy Davin that he regards as an essential instrument to show how production should be increased, an economic council which would do what the Government has failed to do. Personally I do not think that the Government will set up an economic council because when they were asked at the beginning of the emergency to set up a group to watch, under Government direction, the development of the situation in the world and here during the war, so that we might be ready, forewarned and pre-visioned, to see what was happening in the world, with plans to avoid wherever possible the difficulties created by the destruction throughout the world and on the other hand to be prepared to take advantages of any opportunities that offered in the post-war world to a country like ourselves that had been unravaged by warfare, the Government refused to do so. They said that they had all the machinery for looking after all that. We see what the results have been.

We had a half-baked report from a committee set up in the heel of the hunt to report on post-war agricultural policy. Beyond that we have not got. Have any steps ever been taken to implement any recommendations of that report? None, so I do not think the Government is going to set up an economic council. Even if they did we would have to wait for another four or five years to hear something from them and then the Government would pay as much attention to their recommendation as they are paying to the unanimous recommendations of the Vocational Organisation Commission. That commission pointed out where the whole strength of our people lay and where, under proper and informed guidance, our people's efforts might be directed. They pointed out that the work of the country had to be directed by sections of people grouped according to their vocational occupations with the necessary technical and professional assistance. That recommendation has been almost completely spurned in almost every branch of our national life by the Government.

We have, after a very hard struggle from the time the Public Health Bill was introduced, succeeded in persuading the new Minister for Health to set up an advisory council representative of various medical organisations in the country to advise him in his work. How far we are indebted for that progress to the legacy of a mess-up in legislation, organisation and general administration left by the new Minister's predecessor I do not know, but at any rate we have got as far as that.

This body is to be set up in relation to an empowering Bill but we have no information as to what it is going to do yet. So we are going to be left in the days immediately in front of us with a Government that has no ideas, no plans, no consideration for the people who are carrying on the work of the country. The Government would leave the people under the impression that only the Government can do this work. Some small rumbles of what we are to expect have come from various Ministers to the people from public platforms here and there. They are not prepared to say it as it should be said. Why? Because the Government know that, in the circumstances in which they are prepared to say that, the people have not a chance of doing their work because every chance of the ordinary people getting their hands on work has been destroyed in so far as the Government can destroy plans and opportunities.

The usual refuge is now being sought by the Taoiseach. He went to Longford last Sunday to say: "We are only beginning. Do not rush us. As an organisation we are only 21. As a Government we are only 15. We are only beginning." They would have done something in the first six years but for one thing, and in the second six years, but for another thing, but they are now to finish the job they undertook. They are going to put first things first, and they are going to solve Partition and to save the Irish language and going to have us all speaking it in less than no time. It is the usual refuge of a certain class of mind which seeks to distract the people by lauding the higher realms of nationality, as if the whole of our nationality and the whole of our culture did not spring from the daily work of the people.

Partition is to be solved. The Irish language to be saved—both new and great works. Why? Because the people's minds must be distracted and they have to be led to the higher things. In the United States, it is complained that by over-working the land in an unsuitable and uneconomic way, dust bowls have been created. Fianna Fáil policy has created huge spiritual dust bowls in this country, even in the normal instinct of the people themselves to know the result of their own work out of which springs their health and happiness. Even that is being obsecured to a people whose minds have been fed on the spirituality of Fianna Fáil. An attitude has been taken up by the Taoiseach and by his Ministers that there have been very serious difficulties in the world, otherwise things would have been better.

What kind of world do we think we live in? What kind of world was it that this State sprang out of—a world of peace and plenty, or a world where people had to live by their work or live in idleness? What kind of world was it from which people had to dig their freedom and establish their own Parliament? It was not a world of peace. It was a world of difficulty and danger but it was faced by men and women whose physical and spiritual strength came from the fact that they lived down close to Irish life and Irish soil and Irish work, and if Deputy Davin and others in this House are disappointed that their efforts are wasted—if that is so. how much has been wasted of the efforts of the people who gave their lives and work to set up an Irish Parliament here, in an Ireland not to be substituted by a country in which people have not to do work, but one in which there will be handed out doles by way of free beef or free milk or free beef or free boots?

This Parliament was set up to carve a path through difficulties in order that ordinary Irish people, by attending to their farms, attending to their industry and commerce and attending to their transport, could make their State strong. We have had a Government that has stepped in the people's way at every step of the road and is still standing in the way of the people, failing to take advantage of the opportunities, having passed through this war in peace, which lie in front of them to-day.

They came on to the threshold of the last world war with a record of failure behind them, failure measured by their achievements, by a comparison of those achievements with those of the Government that went before them. They were going to reduce taxation. They were going to establish industry. They were going to bring back the emigrants and create sufficient employment for them here. It is an old story but it is an old story that cannot be forgotten. It has been repeatedly reiterated and must be reiterated here as long as the people are prevented by Fianna Fáil uplift from looking back to Irish tradition.

The people, and the people's Government before Fianna Fáil became a Government here, were able to carry on this country on a cost in taxation and in rates of about £26,000,000 a year, and between the years of 1937 and 1942, so far from taxation increasing, there had been reduction in the amount taken from the people's pockets in rates and taxes. Then a Government came in to reduce taxation. Actually before this war was entered on, rates and taxes had gone up by about £7,000,000 a year. To take our taxation alone between 1927 and 1932, it rose from £21,074,000 to £21,286,000, an increase of £212,000, while the rates were substantially reduced, so that there was £250,000 less taken from the people in rates and taxes.

But by 1939 the rates and taxes had been increased by nearly £7,000,000. Between 1939 and 1947, during the years of the war, taxation alone has gone up by £21,000,000 and that is not sufficient, because £5,000,000 more has to be added this year. In spite of that enormous increase in taxation, we have had, as a result of the war, £17,000,000 of debt unrelieved by any assets, put down on the people by the Government that was increasing unemployment year after year. An emigration which had been wiped out in 1931 was brought about again in 1939 as a result of the fact that the Government failed to keep up the record of creation of employment that was in this country under the constructive fosterage of an Irish Government before they came into office in 1932. We have a situation to-day that whereas everybody has now agreed that our agriculture is the foundation of our national life, men have been taken off the land. In the five years before the war broke out 49,000 male workers were taken off Irish land. Since the war 11,000 more have been taken off the land. In the last 12 months 2,000 males have been pushed off Irish land. As far as production is concerned in every aspect of agricultural life it is gradually growing less and less. What is the position of the milk supply in relation to our creameries? Deputy Norton stated that there was a serious lack of milk in many parts of the country. I think there is a serious lack of milk in every part of the country. You are faced with the astonishing position that in a country where a Government boasts that that country can become self-sufficient our creameries during the period of the war from 1939 to 1946 handled 35,000,000 gallons less milk than they had before the war. The amount of the milk produced for creameries fell by nearly 18 per cent. Between 1945 and 1946—to all intents and purposes when the war was over— the production of milk fell by another 12,600,000 gallons less than was provided in 1945. Following that debacle, or as sequel to it, the home manufacture of butter is now being wiped out.

In a country where we have colleges and schools for the purpose of training girls in dairying the home producer of butter to-day can, as a result of Government Order, get a higher price for the butter which is just slapped out of the churn than they would get if the complete process of butter making were carried out and the finished article were produced ready for the table. Farmers all over the country looked to the cessation of war as a time when a long-term agricultural policy would be opened out in front of them as the result of the opportunities existing in Great Britain. Nothing has been done about that. Although the opportunity was provided for increasing the supply of eggs to Great Britain we probably will supply less eggs to Great Britain in the future than we supplied last year, although the war is now over almost two years. There is no plan of any kind to encourage egg production in this country.

What is the use of talking in general terms about expanding our agricultural production and our agricultural exports in order that we may pay for the additional raw materials and the additional machinery we require from outside? What is the use in talking in general terms unless we get down to targets for eggs, poultry, pigs, sheep, cattle and general agricultural produce? No attempt of any kind has been made to do anything in that direction. Part of the general destruction done by the Fianna Fáil Party before the war was the wiping out of our pig production and the wiping out of our bacon industry. They were wiped out at a time when, with less bacon than our people ever had before, we were charged exorbitant prices for that used for home consumption while we dished bacon out of the country to Great Britain at two-thirds the price we were asked to pay for it here.

At the same time as we fed our own people on free beef in an attempt to kill the cattle industry we fed the British on cheap bacon in an attempt to kill the pig production and bacon industry. There might have been some excuse for this apparent madness which attacked the Fianna Fáil Party when they got into power and when they felt they had still another round to go with Britain. Surely, after the experience of that particular time and in the light of the economic experience during the war we should now expect something more at this particular stage of our history than a policy similar to that which existed during the economic war. If there is anybody who can see any change in their outlook I would be glad to be shown it because I would like to see some ray of hope for ourselves and for our people and I should like to feel that the Government had learned something from their experience of the economic war and the world war.

To-day we find men being swept off the land and to-day we find women being swept off the land. The chairman of the Vocational Education Committee in Cork recently complained that to such an extent had girls left the rural areas in Cork that there were no longer any girls available to become wives for the young men down there who are willing to marry. We had the Taoiseach in Longford the other day saying that we were complaining about emigration; that we had no solution to offer for emigration; and that he could not stop people leaving the country. I would hesitate before I would stop any boy or girl of courage or spirit who felt that they had not the opportunity in this country going abroad, even if they went abroad to learn by their own sorry experience that they had not the same opportunities there which they might have made for themselves at home. If there are, as the Taoiseach says there are, opportunities for young boys and girls at home will the Government show them to us and show them to these young men and women before they leave the country? Surely, that is one of their functions.

It is certainly due to the people that the Government should now review the situation, in the light of the disturbance and confusion brought to this country through the economic war and the recent world war, and show to the people that just as the people in the past lived out of the land and reared families on their small farms, putting their children into professions and business and productive occupations, it should be possible for the men and women to-day, with the measure of freedom which we have gained, to do what their parents and grandparents did when they had not such a measure of freedom and when they had not a Parliament to look after their interests and plan for them.

As Deputy Davin suggested it is very difficult to feel that any useful purpose will be served by talking to the members of the Government here. But if we here in this House cannot achieve something for the people then we must realise that they cannot rid themselves of the difficulties which confront them and that we shall have to prepare ourselves for a very serious situation in the future. I want to know from the Taoiseach are men and women expected to live out their lives on Irish farms and to rear families on them and find occupations for them? Would the Taoiseach tell us what these occupations are? Are the workers in the cities and towns to be expected to maintain homes in this country? Are they expected to settle down and marry in this country and rear families? Will they find work in industry and in commerce, in transport and in trade for their children?

What evidence is there in the policies pursued here and from the results of them that we see around us that would give us grounds for any such hope? On the one hand, we have a Committee on Youth Unemployment sitting here in this City of Dublin for the last couple of years. I think they are afraid to report. Whether or not it is that they are afraid to report the facts or whether it is that they are afraid to make honest, straight representations to a Government that has turned the blind eye and the deaf ear to any report from any commission that was ever set up, I do not know, but the problems that were reviewed by that commission still exist and a solution of them is required. It has to be found in a fundamental reapproach to our educational processes on the one hand, and to our general economic and trading policy on the other. Just like the big, high, political intangibility offered to our people as the great things the Taoiseach and the Fianna Fáil Party are going to do in connection with Partition and the Irish language problem, so, in the economic sphere or in the work sphere, any work that is held out as part of the Government plan must be gigantic, too. Instead of plans for increasing the productivity of the country, bringing opportunities to young hands and to young minds to do work and to produce goods, we are given plans running into impressive millions for the erection of concert halls, for the erection of hotels, for the erection of sanatoria, and for the erection of elaborate offices for civil servants at Dublin Castle. These are the plans that are held in front of us—big, gigantic things that could only be done by a great country with a great Government and, therefore, could only be done in Ireland and by the Fianna Fáil Government.

I wonder if any consideration at all has been given to what the economic effect of laying aside millions to spend on these unproductive works is going to be, even if they are to be carried out over the next ten, 15 or 20 years. I wonder where our people are going to get the savings that can be expended on these things. If they cannot get the savings, I wonder where they are going to get the credit. What credit can a country have that floats along on big highfalutin ideas while the ordinary average work of the people is left undone, unplanned, and while our people are fleeing the country, even if it means going from the frying pan into the fire? I want the Taoiseach to realise that to our mind his political programme and his so-called economic programme are nothing but vapourings. It is far away from anything that is likely to bring either cultural achievement, economic achievement or work of any kind to people to-day. It is leading to no greater happiness or security than the Fianna Fáil promises of 1931 and 1932 led the people. Then, as if our expenses were not big enough, in a most unrealistic kind of way we want an Army two and a half times bigger than we ever thought we would want to guard all this glorious work and to guard all this glorious freedom.

The approach of the Taoiseach and of his Government to the problems and protection of this country has been nothing but a gigantic fraud and no people in the world of to-day can be moving towards anything but unhappiness, disappointment and destruction when they are being simply fostered in fraud. Our people, particularly at the end of the last war, saw with a clear vision; they saw the realities of Irish life and Irish problems and they were banded together in a great unity by their realisation of these things. It was their clear outlook and the unity of it that brought us through our political and economic difficulties of that time.

We are going to be destroyed economically if we do not get as clear a vision now with regard to our economy to-day. It would be a happy position for this country, I think, if instead of having a Government such as it has at the present time—obscuring the issue, pretending that it is doing things it cannot and will not do—it had no Government at all and if the country was thrown back on its own resources and organisation to face the difficulties that confront it. Then we would have, however imperfect, some of that strength that we know from a reading of the report of the Vocational Organisation Committee this country has and can have. We would realise that we would have some of that natural strength and natural organisation to face these difficulties instead of having the energy, capacity and resources of our people and their minor organisations frustrated by the presence of a Government that is doing more to obstruct and impede the people than to give them anything that is an actual help.

Sir, I gave notice of my intention to raise a very specific matter, namely, the imminence of the Communist threat to the social and political fabric of our society, and methods economic as distinct from the political sphere, that might be effectively used to repel that threat, and not only to salvage but to resuscitate Christian democracy and individual freedom in our own country. Clausewitz declares that war is the ultimate stage of diplomacy. The diplomatic activities of this Government were dealt with on the Vote for External Affairs and it is because the aspect of the problems which I now propose to deal with ends not in war, but in the certainty that there cannot be war, that I underline most heavily the distinction which I wish to draw between the general and the specialised approach to this problem which I propose to make.

One of the commonest errors about the catastrophe which threatens the world, and us as part of that world, most urgently at the present moment is the illusion that Communism is a Russian manifestation. It never was. It is founded on the philosophy of Marx and Engels. Engels was a German and Marx was a member of the Jewish race, and his association with that doctrine has not infrequently been made the excuse for the loathsome and disgusting gospel of anti-Semitism which has disgraced so many so-called Christian nations in the past.

But the beastly theories of Communism are not the prerogative of Russia or of Germany or of any other country in the world. Every country on the face of the globe has its own indigenous type, including this country, and the special note of warning which I want to sound at this time of unprecedented peril is this. A great many people here and elsewhere have consoled themselves by looking round the community in which they live and saying: "How could our community ever go Communist when we are more than 95 per cent. Catholic?" No country in the world ever went Communist or Nazi. They were made Communist or Nazi by the resolute minority that seized the opportunity of anarchy, carefully brought about for the purpose of enabling a microscopic minority to seize power and enslave the majority who had no use for that detestable doctrine, and, having got control, to decimate their opponents by the simple, old-fashioned method of murder.

I beg of Deputies to remember that on the Baltic coast there is a Catholic community the same as our own which, overnight, was made Communist and the men and women of which are at this moment as we sit here being removed in cattle trucks to Siberian concentration camps, there to be worked to death as of deliberate policy for no crime other than that they were Catholics and democrats. There is no use in closing our eyes to the fact that 15 years ago, if anyone in the Parliament of Esthonia suggested that such a thing could come to pass, he would have been looked on with the same incredulity that characterises the faces of some of my Fianna Fáil colleagues in this House when I envisage such a possibility overtaking us here.

Professor Toynbee has recently completed the second part of a great nine-volume work called The Survey of History, in which he has looked back over the whole picture of the history of man, and from that survey he advances what appears to me a convincing thesis, that, from time to time in the history of civilisations, a particular civilisation is confronted with a virile and dynamic challenge and that, when that comes to pass, it does not so much matter whether that challenge is founded on truth or error if it has within it the quality of dynamism and virility, no static defence will resist it. Merely to stand pat upon the status quo evokes from it the quality, so well known to those concerned with the hydraulics of a water hammer. If you close down the sluice against it, with every rebounding blow its force develops in geometric progression until the obstacle of the existing social system, however firmly founded, however structurally sound, is swept away and the new theory takes its place either in the form of chaos or a different social system, depending on the quality of the challenge.

I suggest to this House that at this moment such a challenge has been formulated to Christian civilisation in this country and every other country in the world, and it is no answer simply to stand pat and expose the error of that challenge unless, in our concept of life, we can find an answering challenge more dynamic than the diabolical propositions of the dialectical materialists. If we are to face it, we have to understand the method by which it works.

Remember, there is an English Communist Party, a German Communist Party, a Danish Communist Party, a French Communist Party, an Irish Communist Party and an American Communist Party. Many of these vary in detail, but they have one thing in common. They all take their orders from the 14 men who sit in the Kremlin at Moscow as the Politburo of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics and they depend confidently, if there are enough poor silly-billies knocking about, on them to enable them to proceed with their nefarious activities, and the poor silly-billies will stick their heads in the sand and cock up their feathered posteriors like an ostrich because they are afraid to face life and only feel safe under the hen's wing whom they depend upon to do their thinking for them.

Now, I want to say with the fullest possible deliberation, that the wrecking of the Paris Conference by the Russian Foreign Minister is clear evidence that the Communist Internationale is going to attempt the conquest of Europe—and this country forms part of Europe—within the next 12 months. They mean to do it while the going is good and before the world has fully awakened to the danger that confronts it. The means they will employ are novel. They will shake every democracy in Europe to pieces with a war of nerves, plus a skilfully designed campaign of propaganda. The first salvo in the propaganda campaign in this country was the pamphlet, the letter and the leaflet which reached every Deputy in this House last Saturday week. That was drafted by the Communist Party for the Communist Party and issued as the first step in the campaign to represent an Irish Government as being guilty of indefensible outrages against helpless and blameless prisoners. In fact, it alleged against a democratic Government the very dirty kind of crimes of which the Communists themselves are habitually guilty, in the knowledge that, in a democratic country, you are free to charge the Government with anything you feel it your duty to charge them with, while in a Communist country your life is not worth an hour's purchase if you dare to speak the truth.

Many Deputies may say: "What is the general meaning of shaking the democracies of Europe to pieces by a war of nerves?" I will try to describe it. Take any country in Europe at the present moment. Ultimately, if it is a democratic country, its institutions depend on the members of Parliament from whose ranks the Government of the day may from time to time be drawn. Every one of those politicians must at this moment be asking him self this question: "Suppose I con tinue to resist Communism in my own country in the knowledge that it is being directed and fomented by the 14 men of the Politburo in Moscow, and Europe falls to the Communists, will I not meet the same fate as Petkoff in Bulgaria?" He was a leader of the Resistance; he was extremely anti-Nazi; he was concerned for nothing but what he felt was democracy, and freedom in his own country, yet when the 14 men in Moscow made up their minds to control Bulgaria, Petkoff was arrested and he vanished. A note was addressed from America and a note was addressed from Great Britain, and then the ripples on the pool died down.

On the other hand, suppose a politician, so circumstanced, contemplates joining the Communist Party, the moment he joins up he safe because, if the Communists do not win and the democracies prevail, they will not liquidate him. They will hold a de-Bolshevising court, de-Bolshevise him, and make him the mayor of his own home town as a reformed character. In those circumstances, if grave apprehension continues to exist in Europe that the Communists are going to overrun the whole Continent, can any Deputy doubt that a war of nerves is at this moment proceeding which will shake every democracy in Europe to pieces before a blow is struck? What, then, is the alternative? How shall democracy in this country and the rest of Europe avoid the ultimate disaster of being overwhelmed?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

Some foolish people would answer: "Let us have the war now." Such foolish people are utterly mad. If we must choose between obliteration and the devastation of war and, on the other hand, submission to Communist domination, I believe every Deputy would choose war and obliteration and the sooner the democracies of Europe are placed in a position to fix the 14 men in Moscow with notice of that kind on behalf of every country in Europe, the safer we are. We should not want war; we should not hope for war as a solution of this problem but we should make it perfectly clear that if we have to choose between obliteration and surrender to Communism, with our eyes wide open and our minds coolly set in anticipation of the crisis, we choose now, and will then choose, obliteration rather than surrender. But there is a way, in my submission, whereby the dark night can be ended, not only for Europe and for Ireland, but for the Russian people as well, without the shedding of a drop of blood, without the firing of a single shot, if democracy will but take its courage in its hands and meet this virile and dynamic challenge of materialism with an answering challenge more virile and more dynamic, founded upon the Christian concept of political organisation which recognises as its first duty the utilisation of the resources of the world to feed the hungry wherever they may be, to clothe the naked wherever they may be, and to make of money, not the servant of money-changers and moneylenders, but the servant of the average man who wants to use it to enable him to use the talents that God gave him.

This is the answering challenge. The only force in the world strong enough to convince the Socialist Soviet Republics that if the 14 men in the Kremlin throw down the challenge of war it will be taken up and in the ensuing conflict that the antagonists of Communism will prevail, is the United States of America. But that Power and these resources cannot, in potentia, be brought to bear on the Continent of Europe, unless the United States has available a base from which her forces can be deployed within reach of Europe and which the United States can reach and put in a state of defence before Russia has time to overrun it. There is only one such base. That is the island of Great Britain. If it were Ireland, I would glory in the opportunity of our people to offer that base, but Ireland will not do unless Great Britain is available, because it is the narrow sea channel and the British Navy that make a base in England invulnerable against any Russian attempt to overrun it. So long as that base is available to the United States of America and the British Commonwealth of Nations, there will be no war because Russia knows she cannot successfully challenge an Anglo-American combination. Great Britain is inevitably placed in the gap of danger as the result of her geographical situation and is in a position to prohibit any aggression by the United States of America if such were ever thinkable.

There is no Government in Europe that does not know that that proposition is true, but there is not a Government in Europe that will give you a categorical answer to-night as to whether, in the event of a crisis coming upon us, Great Britain will be available for the role she has to play, because Great Britain is hungry, Great Britain is tired, Great Britain is crippled for the want of equipment, for the want of raw materials, for the want of food, for the want of hope for the end of a period of travail which has borne her people down and which has made her people carry a burden that no other people in the world could have carried for half so long as she has. Europe knows that.

To provide the credits necessary for Britain to stage the come-back she could stage if given the chance, is one thing, but to provide the credits now that would carry conviction to the minds of Europe that they are large enough to guarantee beyond question of doubt that whatever the future may hold they will be big enough to cover Britain's largest possible requirements is quite another story. Economists may understand that £2,000,000,000 in dollars is enough but we are not dealing with economists—we are dealing with democratic Governments all over Europe and we have got to carry conviction to their minds that Great Britain will recover and Great Britain will be there when the Communist challenge to Christian civilisation crystallises in the early future.

We are a sterling country here in Ireland. Deputy Davin dwelt on it here to-day and it puzzled him to know how we might escape the consequences of our attachment to sterling. He need not be puzzled. There is no use in trying to think out a plan to escape the inevitable, and when 98 per cent. of your foreign trade is with Britain, you belong to the sterling group whether you like it or not, and though you plan until the cows come home, you will still belong to the sterling group whether you like it or not.

How then at one stroke shall all this be done? Among the leaders of Britain I could name just three men, but it is an old Parliamentary custom to be wary about naming statesmen of neighbouring countries in the Dáil. If three men, the leaders of England, would but meet three men, the leaders of the United States of America, and recognising that the world was faced to-day with a crisis greater than any war, declare that as and from a fixed date there would be free passage of men, money and goods without restriction of any sort over the entire territory of the United States, of Britain and her Colonial Empire, with the right for any member of the Commonwealth of Nations to enter that plan were she minded to do so and the plan to function for a period of 20 years, the economic experts of London and Washington to work out the administrative details as the operation of the plan proceeded, on the day that declaration would be made austerity in England would be over. The population of England is not equal to that of any two States of the United States taken together, and the addition of her requirements to the requirements already being supplied by the entire United States would constitute no serious extra burden over and above what is being sent on the precarious basis of credit at present established.

British industry would be re-equipped. The raw materials would become immediately available on the one hand for British industry and on the other hand the raw materials for which the United States must depend on the outside world would now be within her reach in the Colonial Empire of Great Britain. The slump, which is the sword of Damocles hanging over the civilisation of the United States of America, is gone for all foreseeable time and there has opened out before the United States of America the opportunity of developing the markets of the whole Colonial Empire of Great Britain. When that task was done, other nations could be invited to join in it, thus Christian civilisation would in the years ahead be faced with the task of providing for the teeming millions of the East who, heretofore, lived lower and poorer than our domestic animals.

Who will talk of slumps with such a vista before us? Is there not a demand there far greater than anything which the pushing back of the frontier of the west of America made available in the 18th century on which the incomparable wealth of the United States of America was so successfully founded? Last but not least, on the morrow of that declaration, war in the world becomes impossible because Russia dare not declare it, and no conceivable interest of Great Britain or the United States of America would be served by it.

Then, as the full significance of that development sank through the minds of men throughout the European Continent overnight, the swaggering fifth columnists of Moscow at present conspiring to sell their own country to the universal aggressor would be turned into the fugitive traitors that they truly are, no longer daring democrats to speak, no longer threatening those who seek to serve their God with persecution and even death, but crawling around the corners to explain that the red tie they had been wearing last week was only worn from a high sense of duty so that they could temper the wind to the shorn lambs, their neighbours, if and when the tempest ever broke on their native land, that the luncheon at the Soviet Embassy they were inviting you to, daring you not to come to, was only solicitude for you when there was a shortage in your pantry, and that the opportunity of dining in an extraterritorial house would relieve the national crisis. If it be gratification to us who live upon the fringe of Europe to think of that metamorphosis in these crawling maggots, what triumph it would be to those who, in the presence of a danger we have never known, have held fast to those principles which we profess to serve but to the benefits of which we become so accustomed that we find some amongst us ready to sneer and jibe at those who are dying for them elsewhere.

I envisage an arrangement whereby the pound sterling would be legal tender throughout the United States and the dollar bill legal tender in what we will call the sterling area. I use that term merely to describe Great Britain and her Colonial Empire and such members of the Commonwealth as care to enter into the plan for the present. Were that arrangement to continue for ten or 20 years on that basis, at the end of that period of time the threatened conquest would roll back from Europe. I should have added, Sir, that once the plan was in operation and the six consequences I have outlined in process of realisation the first duty of that Anglo-American collaboration would be to recognise that the weak link of democratic Europe is Western Germany and that is where the Communists hope to strike the Continent of Europe its death-blow. Therefore, the combined resources of all should be concentrated upon pouring into Western Germany without calculation and without argument, and without details of administration as to whether every pound was going where it was meant to go, pouring into Western Germany all the surplus that can be mobilised until we get that part of Europe back on the basis of a tolerable existence. While that supremely important task is doing the more fortunate nations of Europe, who are not living in the ruins that encompass that wretched corner, will get along. It is not for love of the German people that I say that. Any people that could have begotten from their midst the loathsome abomination of Nazism and could have kept it living in their midst so long as the Germans did must be forever suspect in my eyes. I would like to see no man suffer. I remember an old parish priest, a friend of mine, who would speak with peculiar severity of a friend but he always hastened to add: "Of course, I include him in the theological catalogue of my charity."

Let my solicitation for the German people be covered by that prudent limitation. But give them the end of potential chaos in Western Germany and give then the assurance to all the threatened States of Europe that England yet will stand; give then to all the threatened States of Europe the knowledge that in the last analysis, if it must be, the challenge of war will not be taken up by those foredoomed to die but by the United States of America, who will ultimately prevail, and we will see in our time all this insidious dark night dissipated without the shedding of a drop of blood and without the firing of a single shot. And, at the end, when the count comes to be taken, I can envisage the Federal Reserve Bank calling in all the sterling notes circulating in America and the Bank of England, in collaboration with the Central Bank here, and throughout the Commonwealth, calling in all the dollar bills. Then dollars swopped for pound notes, in a clearinghouse transaction, leaving to the charge of the United States $50,000,000,000 in sterling notes not one single one of which could be redeemed. The wiseacres will ask-what then? I think the proper way to meet that situation would be to choose the largest open space in Washington and there build them into a bonfire, putting behind it four pictures—an American soldier, an American sailor, an American marine and an American airman—and writing beneath them: "$50,000,000,000—that is what we paid to save the four of them. Who says we paid too much?"

I wish to make just a few remarks before the Taoiseach concludes. I would like to add my voice to an appeal made here earlier to-day by Deputy Norton when he asked the Government to institute a scheme similar to that which obtains in England and in other countries of honoraria, generally called the Civil List. I am moved to ask for this because of my intimate knowledge as President of W.A.A.M.A. over a number of years. Members of this House would be appalled to learn the cheques to which I have had to append my name to help prominent actors, artistes and musicians.

There is one thing upon which we all must agree in this House and that is that the name and fame of Ireland has been made by her men of culture and her men of science. Some of our actors have made the name of Ireland famous throughout the United States. Some of them are practically on the doorstep of penury. Some of them have died in very straitened circumstances leaving a wife and children behind them. The Abbey Theatre pays as much as it can afford to do but that is not enough or nearly enough. The men who stay at home earn very little in comparison with the fabulous sums they could have commanded had they gone abroad. They prefer to live here and they prefer to stay here. I make a special appeal to the House not to forget our eminent artistes, scientists, actors and musicians who are striving to live on very meagre incomes. When they pass on that we here as a grateful nation should remember their eminence and not forget their widows and children.

I regret that I was not present while Deputy Dillon was speaking. I would have liked to have listened to his address. However, in the few moments I was present, I gathered he was speaking of the very serious world condition. That condition may be as serious as Deputy Dillon has pointed out. It is not for the ordinary man who has not access to all sources of knowledge to express a definite opinion on the matter. Whatever happens I am sure that if the world is threatened with complete domination by one nation or by one particular and undesirable ideology this nation will stand up to the test and will prove that it is as courageous and as willing to stand on the side of right as it has always been in the past. On one question we can make up our minds—that whatever happens as long as we have the right and the freedom to govern this country according to our own ideals and ideas it is our duty to see that the Government here is conducted as well as it is possible for it to be.

It is our duty to see that this country is as well governed as it is possible for a civilised and a Christian nation to be. On the Taoiseach, more than on anybody else, rests the responsibility of seeing that we in this country have a Government that is mindful of all the present needs of the entire population. On him, more than on anybody else, rests the obligation of seeing that justice is done as between one section of the community and another and as between one citizen and another. Various Ministers have been paraded before this House as their Estimates came up for consideration and the captain of the team is now before the House for consideration of his administration and of his management of national affairs.

Various subjects have been put down for consideration in this debate. In my opinion, the most pressing and urgent of all those subjects that have been submitted for consideration—I think almost too many were submitted —is the problem of emigration. During the past ten years, as disclosed by our census returns, the population of this country declined. That decline was not due to any physical failure on the part of our people, it was due to the export of our population—the export of the natural increase in our population. The net emigration in that ten-year period was 189,942 people— almost 190,000 people. If the Taoiseach were present any day at the United Kingdom office or at the port of Dún Laoghaire he would see leaving our country young men and young women, and what would impress him more than anything else would be the fine physical condition of these young people. They are all, without exception, in the prime of youth and of health. What an asset those 190,000 people must be to the nation which they have gone to build up. I think no Christian person begrudges Great Britain that great asset she has received and has been receiving from this nation. We do not begrudge a nation which has been worn out by war, distresses and privations of war, such an influx of splendid young men and women to build up her industries and to found homes in Great Britain.

However, the question arises as to whether this nation can afford to lose that percentage of that population and whether we can afford to go on losing it. In the years of war one of the worries that beset people here who tried to look into the future was that those hundreds and thousands of young people would be returned to this country, dumped back upon our shores, and we would have to try to find employment for them out of our inadequate resources. That problem did not arise but a greater and much more serious one faces us. Britain is still, after the war, in need of an increased population—in need of young men and young women to carry on her industries. There is a sort of vacuum there that has got to be filled. Here is this nation beside Great Britain capable, to a great extent, of filling that vacuum. The drawing power of British offers of employment and fair wages is a tremendous one. It is something that we have got to realise and to look upon as a danger to our very existence. No one suggests and no one would dare to suggest that a wall should be built around this country to keep our young men and women here. No one would suggest that a definite drastic restriction should be placed upon emigration. It is the right of free people in a free country to go to any other free country they like to seek a living. We have no objection to that. What we must face is the danger that too many people are being drawn out of this country and that too many people will be drawn out of this country in the future and that, as a result, we shall have a weak anæmic nation which will simply be looked upon with scorn by the other nations of the world. I suppose there are people who will say: "Why worry about this problem? After all, if those people go to Great Britain, to America or elsewhere and find a good living there, why should anyone complain?" If we follow that line of argument we must abandon the whole idea of nationality. We must make up our minds to look upon this country just as a depopulated province and a sort of out-farm of Great Britain. Is that the ideal which inspired the men who struggled so long for the freedom of this country? Is it the ideal which should inspire our young people to-day—that Ireland really does not matter; that it does not matter if there are only 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 people here; that it does not matter so long as the other people find a living in some part of the world?

I am afraid that there are a lot of young people growing up to-day who may take that view. I am afraid that national sentiment is weaker amongst the young people than it probably ever was in the past. I think that is the first serious problem to be faced. No nation faced with the danger of poverty and the danger of physical extinction can fight and overcome that problem and face that danger unless the best of the people, the young men and young women, are inspired with a sufficient amount of patriotic idealism to make up their minds to stand together and fight that danger. It is upon the boys and girls who are growing up to manhood, upon their will to ensure that this nation shall survive, that our hopes must rest. How is survival to be achieved? It can only be achieved by an all-out effort to grapple with and overcome the almost overpowering economic problems that confront us.

We have not achieved success economically in this country within the past 25 years. No doubt, we have had a growth of the population in the City of Dublin and an improvement, perhaps, in the housing accommodation available around the city. A lot of new houses have been built; not half enough, of course, to meet the demand. That is one thing that has been achieved. But, going down the country, you will find whole parishes the population of which has been reduced in some cases by 25 per cent. and in some other cases by as much as 50 per cent. during the past 25 or 30 years. That reduction of population has been brought about by the trend of our people to move towards the bigger centres of population or to get out of the country altogether.

How are we to arrest that tendency? First, of course, we have to step up agricultural production. Two things in connection with agriculture have to be improved. First of all, you have to improve the fertility of the soil. More lime and more phosphates must be got into the country or manufactured here and the whole productive capacity of the soil stepped up so that the output of agriculture may be increased, as it can be increased, by about 50 per cent. I have never held out an ideal of more than 50 per cent. But the ideal of a 50 per cent. increase can be reached, provided every acre is producing to the maximum, provided every acre has soil capable of producing to its maximum, and that deficiencies in the soil are made good by the application of the necessary chemical manures.

Last night I received an invitation to visit a small farmer who wanted to get from the Land Commission a transfer into a better holding. To reach his place, I had to travel along a by-road. When I got off the by-road I had to travel up a hill as far as the car would go on low gear. Finally, I had to leave the car and travel a further mile of a bad laneway to that man's holding. I found there a rather well-managed farm on the side of a mountain. Evidently the land had been reclaimed, perhaps generations back. The farmer had a young family. When I asked him why he was seeking a transfer he said: "I have been living all my life miles away from everyone. I have been meeting with all kinds of handicaps and difficulties, such as the impossibility of getting a threshing set in my holding and the impossibility of carting manures and everything else up the long laneway from the road. I have had to contend with the hardship of the weather perched up here so high as I am on the side of the mountain. I am wondering if the Land Commission would transfer me to a better farm nearer the road, nearer some town or village." Of course, I told him that it was rather unlikely that the Land Commission would transfer him unless the Forestry Section intended to take over his holding and adjoining land for planting. But I could not help feeling what a tragedy it is that people who live so far from the main public road and from a town are so discontented that they want to get nearer to the centres of population, nearer to the social life that is available, nearer to the amenities and comforts provided in the better populated centres.

I am wondering whether the whole policy of the Government should not be directed to reversing that tendency, no matter what it costs; to constructing better roads out to these isolated country districts near the mountainsides so as to try to keep the people there and give them encouragement to remain there; give them some advantages perhaps over the people on the better land. It may be taking money from the better-off section of the community and expending it on this poorer section. But we cannot afford to leave areas of the country completely denuded of population. We cannot afford to have a situation in which land far removed from the roads will just become a grazing run for a bigger farm nearer the public road and eventually deteriorate and go back into heath and furze. It is determination to utilise every available acre of the land for the people that will eventually save our country.

If something were done by the State in the matter of housing for people in such backward areas; if better houses were provided and better roadways to these houses; if there were opportunities to obtain the necessary manures at a cheap rate to improve their type of land, there would be an inducement to them to fight the tendency of young people to get away. There is tremendous work to be done in this country, and it is work in which the Government, as the body with the most finance, organisation and resources must give a lead. The Minister for Local Government mentioned that there are 60,000 houses required. I believe that nearer to 160,000 houses are required.

Why do you think that?

I am adding to the number of houses estimated by the Minister as required for the working classes, based on applications by working men for housing accommodation, the houses that are required by perhaps 75 per cent. of our smaller farmers. The house I visited last night was middling fair for a farmer's house, as such houses go, but yet it was not good enough. It was simply not good enough for the farmers of the future. It could not compare with any of the houses on Sundrive Road, or any of the suburbs of our cities or towns, or even any of the houses in our villages. It was old and badly built on the side of a hill and the water coming down the hill made it rather damp. The condition of that house might be improved but I think the best thing to do would be to level it and build a decent house. That is why I say there are probably 100,000 more houses required, apart from the Minister's estimate.

If we were to face this problem properly, we should say to the medium farmer, the man with 50, 60 or 100 acres: "We will help you to build another house on your holding for your second son and, if you divide your land between the two sons, there will be an economic holding for both." If that were done, I am sure there would be a willing response and one son, instead of rushing to the emigrant ship, would be glad to remain here.

I am glad the Deputy agrees with me in that matter. That is all the agreement I have got so far with reference to that proposition.

I heard the Taoiseach on one occasion say that, even where there would be only one son in the house, it might be a good thing to build because, if the son got married, the old people could still remain in their old holding.

There was no question of limiting the family.

Perhaps we could get agreement on other matters as well, but now that we have got agreement on this, I hope the Taoiseach will set about implementing the proposal and, since we are giving a subsidy of more than two-thirds of the cost for the building of a worker's house, I trust he will be equally generous when he is dealing with farmers and their sons who require additional accommodation. In many cases, where there is only one son on a farm, he is deterred from marrying because he does not like to bring a wife into the house where his father and mother are, or, as the case might be, where there would be only one of the parents. He is probably right—one family in one house is sufficient. There, again, that problem might be met by adding one or two rooms to the dwellinghouse; the older people could live quite close to the younger generation and at the same time not be so close as to the become an encumbrance or an annoyance.

This housing problem is a large one. It may seem idle to talk of it now, with the shortage of housing materials, but I feel sure that that shortage will be overcome in the near future. I think we should have the best brains of the country utilised to solve this problem immediately materials are available. I remember visiting a planning exhibition in the Mansion House some years ago and better housing and other big plans for the future were outlined. I noticed in the papers recently that one of the leading lights of that planning exhibition has gone to take up a good position in some foreign country. That shows the tragedy we are up against— the active brain anxious to help this country giving up in despair and travelling to some other lands, where they will have better opportunities for advancement.

We could give full-time employment to every unemployed person in this country. We could hold the young people who are flying to other lands if we went all-out on a campaign of building and on the other schemes of development that are so urgently needed here. One big scheme that is being undertaken is the rural electrification scheme. I whole-heartedly support that scheme, but there is no use in lighting up a house that is on the verge of collapase. I refer to old houses built with mud walls and roofed with thatch. They are perhaps two hundred or three hundred years in existence. There would be little use in putting electric light into houses of that kind. The main thing is to build a good house and then light it with electricity.

On other Estimates I indicated how necessary it is to advance more rapidly with regard to afforestation and the reclamation and drainage of land. These schemes would give considerable employment to our young men and women and they would add materially to the wealth of the nation. How much richer would this country be if all the waste land had been planted 20, 30 or 40 years ago? How much more timber would we have now to carry on our housing schemes?

Agriculture can, as I say, produce 50 per cent. more than it is at present producing. What would that 50 per cent. increase not do for our nation? Would it not enable our people to have sufficient nutritious food, milk, butter and eggs and other commodities which are so necessary and desirable in order to maintain a decent standard of living? In addition, such an increase would enable us to import capital goods and raw materials so vitally essential for our industries.

I do not know, since I am not an expert on international questions, whether it is possible to bring back to this country some of the capital which is invested abroad. I think it would be a great advantage if we could convert, say even a substantial portion of the capital invested abroad, into such things as fertilisers, lime for our land and the industries for producing them, such things as drainage and afforestation and up-to-date farm buildings When I talked about housing I was speaking only of the housing required for our human population. There is at least as big a problem of housing for our animal population and for the storing of our agricultural produce. It has been estimated I think by agricultural experts that it would require £100,000 to bring farm housing up to the proper standard in regard to farm buildings and the necessary equipment.

Since, unlike Deputy Dillon, I am not an expert on international affairs I do not know whether it is possible to repatriate some of our assets abroad, but if it is, it would be good business for our country to put the money into such things as farm buildings, the improvement of land by drainage, afforestation and the building up of heavy manufacturing industries. I believe, if we are to survive as a nation, we must do something to overcome our poverty in the matter of fuel for domestic use and fuel for industry. It may be that in the development of electricity by various means, the development of our rivers and so on, we may eventually reach a solution of that problem. It may be that the resources of atomic energy may be developed and that in that way we may become completely independent of imported fuel, but whatever the future may hold, it is our duty as a nation to realise that that is a fundamental problem and one towards which we should be directing the major portion of our energies. We cannot have any extensive manufacturing industry without the necessary fuel or fuel oil or power of some sort. We have seen how building was held up during the last few months because there was not sufficient fuel to keep our cement factories going. That should show how necessary it is to do something about that problem.

If I were asked briefly what would I suggest, the development of which would add very materially to our wealth, I would put the cropping of grass. Better grass, better manured grass, better managed grass — I would put that first, having regard to our climate, as an essential towards improving and stepping up the output of our country. There is an old saying that the man who can make two blades of grass grow where only one grew formerly is a practical and a true patriot, and it should be possible in this country to make, not two, but three or four, blades of grass grow where only one grows at present. The man who could in this country eliminate weeds would be doing more to provide a better living for our people than an entire army of talkers and politicians. Weeds flourish everywhere. Whether it is that our climate is so mild or that frequently we have too much rain, I think there is no crop that flourishes more abundantly in Ireland than weeds. Weeds are taking the place of nutritious food that should be supporting animals and, incidentally, supporting an increased human population. The elimination of weeds from our pastures and arable land is one of the most pressing problems that confronts us. How are we going about dealing with that problem? What encouragement have we given to the farmer? The only encouragement is to send out an inspector on a bicycle or in a motor-car to bring him into court and penalise him if he has not his thistles or his weeds cut. That is not dealing effectively with the problem.

People who have studied this know that it is only by better seeding of the pasture, better management of the grass and more intensive manuring that weeds can be eliminated permanently from our pastures. Again, the Department of Agriculture tell us that ensilage is very desirable, that by finding means of preserving grass it will retain its nutritional value almost completely through the winter. What is the Department doing actively to promote the making of ensilage? The introduction of that new system of preserving grass for feeding in the winter will be a difficult problem. It means changing the whole system of farming to do it. That will call for tremendous effort on the part of the Department before it is brought to fruition. I was speaking only recently to an extensive cattle dealer and he told me that he frequently went around to buy cattle to farmers' houses, and wherever he got the smell of ensilage, he knew he would get good cattle before he saw the animals at all.

That is not the view of an official of the Department or of a book farmer; it is the view of a business man dealing in cattle, a man who could judge to the fraction of a shilling the value of a beast. Not only did he tell me that the cattle looked in better condition on ensilage but they had better bone, and even when bought for long-term keep they were inclined to thrive better after being fed on ensilage than on any other type of feeding. That is confirmation from a practical business man in the cattle trade that it is desirable and a necessary step if we are to get the full value out of our land.

There is at the present time a great influx of visitors to this country. In many ways, in regard to the shortage of essential foods, the influx is undesirable. It cannot be denied that this tourist traffic is creating a sort of false and artificial prosperity in some of our towns and tourist resorts. It is also creating a serious shortage of such essential foods as bread, butter, sugar and other commodities which are in short supply already. It is no use for anyone to say that those people are not eating into the food reserves of the country—they are. Whether the hotels get increased rations or not we do not know, but there is no doubt the hotels are never short. I feel that if we are going to plan for the future, however, we must have a plan for the development of the tourist industry.

There is not so much we can export from this country in order to import the things we ordinarily require. We can step up our exports of agricultural produce, but there is a very limited scope for the export of industrial goods. The tourist industry represents an export industry which should bring into this country permanently increased purchasing power from abroad. I think it is an industry which is capable of development, but we should not deprive our people of essential supplies merely to facilitate a type of tourist who may not be a permanent part of the industry in the future.

You may have some people coming in just to get enough to eat. Those people may not come again if it is possible to travel to other countries in the future. But a well-developed tourist industry, I believe, has a future, and if we realise the shortcomings of our climate and seek to overcome them, I think we can provide such opportunities for leisure and amusement in this country as will enable not only our own people to enjoy their leisure but to attract substantial numbers from abroad.

There are so many aspects of our national life that are capable of development that I can only touch on a few. I have mentioned how necessary it is to develop afforestation, drainage and the reclamation of land, as well as the extension of housing, but there is one industry which it may surprise the Taoiseach to hear me advocating—it is the film industry. I believe the film industry is capable of development. It is just sheer ineptitude on the part of our people that permits the situation in which our entire population depends mainly for recreation and amusement on imported films.

I think you are going into matters outside the scope prescribed.

I have no intention of going into those matters in detail. We are dealing with various topics more or less in a general way and I would suggest, in a general way, that the whole question of the future of a film industry is an extremely serious one from the national point of view. The schools are very important but the cinema has become the secondary school for, perhaps, the entire population at present, and the influence of the cinema, I think, is more far-reaching in its effect on the minds of our people than the education they receive in our schools and upon which we are spending £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 a year.

I believe it is withing the power, ability and genius of our people to provide native films. I have no desire to suggest drastic protection—that is the exclusion of foreign films—but I think a great deal can be done to develop that industry in this country, and if it were necessary for the State to give some assistance, it would be well worth while. We ought to get rid of the inferiority complex that only a few wealthy people in Hollywood or London are capable of providing us with amusement or entertainment when we are capable of producing it ourselves. That is one of the things we are capable of producing and the material required is not so extensive as some people may imagine.

An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

I had the pleasure a short time ago of seeing a film on the development of the City of Lima. I understand that the people who acted in that film were the ordinary people of the town. They gave as good an exhibition of talent as one would find in any over-publicised film from Hollywood or elsewhere. I am merely touching now on aspects of our life in which there is room for intensive development.

It must be remembered that if we are to give the incentive to our young people to do that which is most desirable—namely to produce something of value—there must be a rigid control over all forms of racketeering and profiteering. The people who fit themselves in between the producer and the consumer reap a huge profit on the handling of the farmers' produce. They control every form of distribution and transport and they get out of them a much better living than those who are engaged in primary production. They must be carefully watched. Some effort must be made to find out what it costs to deliver home production and to deliver imported goods. I am not now attacking those people engaged in transport and in the distribution business. As far as distribution is concerned, I think there are too many people trying to make a living out of it and too many people handling the goods which we produce and the goods which we import. The census shows that there is one shop for every 70 of our population, but that is only a small fraction of those who are engaged in trade and commerce and who have fitted themselves in between the producer and the consumer. There are the people engaged in the insurance business and the people engaged in the cattle trade, to mention but two. Admittedly the people engaged in the cattle trade render a useful service but my objection is that there are too many people trying to make a living out of the business with the result that distribution is costing too much.

Lastly, I want to say that administration is costing the country too much. There are too many people in the State service, and here one must always remember that these people are engaged in wholly unproductive work. I would have no objection if public officers were engaged in laying out a drainage scheme or in supervising a reafforestation scheme. That would be productive work. I would have no objection to an increase in the number of State servants actively engaged in co-operating with the farmers in improving the technique of farming. That again would be productive work.

I feel I have covered a rather wide field but I trust that some of my suggestions will find favour with the Taoiseach.

Some of the speeches on this debate have ranged over housing, others over emigration and others over unemployment. I am rather wondering if there is not really a connection between the three. I want now to make a few intensive comments on the housing position. We have an acute shortage of housing at the present moment. Some time ago the Fianna Fáil Government were very prone to proclaim the number of houses which they had built per year and to compare their figure to the disadvantage of their predecessors. The war struck then and one did not notice quite the same degree of advertisement. However, I did not rise merely to point that out and I trust that that will not be taken as the only contribution I have to make to this debate.

Going back a number of years almost to the last century the question comes to one's mind: "What did one find then?" There were plenty of houses to let. In every street and city in the suburbs there were a few houses with bills "to let" on them. Practically every house to let had a caretaker in it with his wife and family. He got some small contribution from the landlord and when the house was eventually let he moved on to care-take another one. Then the housing position became a bit more acute. We had the first Rent Restrictions Act just when World War No. 1 broke out. With the introduction of that Act the investor departed from the field of housing. The idea that a man could invest his savings in a house in which he might possibly live some day died away. The present Government are very anxious to solve the housing problem. Nobody can deny their natural anxiety to do that. But the solution of the housing problem must be a long-term policy. It has many facets to it. In some cases I am afraid the Government's own fixed ideas have contributed as much to the present shortage as anything else. Now I give the Government credit for the best of intentions but, in talking of the housing problem, I cannot help thinking of Dublin and County Dublin and I do not think the rest of the country materially differs from them. What do we find? The provision of houses for the workers is the Government's present major effort. There are several ways of solving the housing problem or, at any rate, of alleviating the position into which we have got ourselves at the moment. That is why I went so far back as the last century, A Chinn Comhairle.

The Deputy did not remain long in the last century.

No, and I do not propose to make any further digression. I am merely going back to that time to show that the position has changed from one state to another. When one looks back on the position as it was and what, to my mind at least, caused it, one begins to wonder if the Government—I am not going to say they are on wrong lines—are not riding one line to death and neglecting others. It is only a comparatively modern idea that houses were built for the working classes. The old idea that prevailed for many years was that they got a better class dwelling which had somehow deteriorated and they broke it up into flats. I am not going to defend that system because it created awful problems of sanitation and various other difficulties, but certainly I think it was preferable to the present position.

Another point that I think the Government overlook is that every house that is built, no matter what class, creates some change in the population. It is an exaggeration to talk about the effect of one house. Of course, it is the cumulative effect that matters. A better-class house is either built to order of somebody or is purchased by somebody and the family that move into that move out of somewhere else, and a sort of general post goes on all down the line. I consider that the Government have tackled the housing problem for the working classes at the most expensive end. There have to be very substantial subsidies given for the houses for the poorest sections of the population. Nobody grudges or objects to that. I think, however, they have not paid sufficient attention to the people who can pay down some money. I call them for want of a better word, "the black-coated workers" who can provide a little money and probably pay a rent—either an economic rent or very near an economic rent—and help to alleviate the present shortage. I suppose the Taoiseach might reply: "Well, what are we to do at the present time? Look at the present shortages."

I would like to suggest to the Taoiseach that there is a general shortage of everything which could be slowly improved and I think if the housing position is examined the Government will find that a good deal of blame lies at their own door, that during the emergency they did not do sufficient in laying out water schemes, sewerage schemes, and providing roads during a time when it would have been very useful from the point of view of employment and when it would have served to keep workers at a profitable work for the community which many of the speakers here this evening have enlarged upon. I do not know if I were to ask the Taoiseach what major matter is retarding housing what he would reply. One person will tell you it is sites and amenities, such as water, sewers, gas, electricity, and so on. Another will tell you that it is materials and still a third will tell you that it is labour. Of course one of the tragedies in this country is that there has always been a profitable export market for tradesmen and it is the labourer who has gone to the wall. That is a long story.

Of course, like a lot of other things, there is something to be said on both sides. However, if we have to export our labour it would be much better if we could export tradesmen rather than labour which will only get a fraction of the wages that a tradesman can command. I was talking to a tradesman the other day. He asked me for employment. He said he came back from England. I said to him: "Were you not earning good money in England?" He said: "Oh yes, I was." I said: "I suppose you can go back to employment there. Why do you want to stop here?""Well," he said, "over there the food is not as good as it is here and when you take the difficulties of getting to and from work a man would be better off over here if he could get regular employment." I am merely mentioning that as a refutation of statements that at the present time labour is the difficulty in connection with the construction of housing. I suppose somebody will then remark about materials. I think a whole lot of people are clamouring to stop the better-class buildings and the luxury work. As far as I am concerned I understand that all housing schemes for the working classes get first priority of materials. How is it that the other people are making such progress? I should like to suggest that in the ordinary schemes there is greater flexibility and a desire to take what is available, which, in some cases, is just as good as the material that cannot be obtained and, in other cases, will probably see most of us under the sod before it gives any sign of trouble.

I have confined my remarks to housing because I do not want to range over the whole field, as I feel that in connection with housing the Government have definitely neglected certain things which would make a contribution to the housing difficulties we are experiencing. I appeal to the Government to review the situation from the point of view of everything that can contribute to its solution. Remember, you have hunted the ordinary investor out of the field. That may be a good thing, or it may be a bad thing; but he has gone, anyway.

Poor fellow!

I am not wasting any sympathy on him. He has probably found some other employment for his money. I am merely telling you that he is gone. I am wondering if you have missed him.

Where did they get the excess profits?

The Deputy might be allowed to make his own speech. Deputy Davin was allowed to make his.

More excess profits might be made by contributing still further to the housing problem, so that perhaps I am going to get across Deputy Davin in my remarks this evening. I appeal to the Taoiseach as head of the Government to consider all the avenues by which the housing shortage can be alleviated, because, in my opinion, while pursuing one of them they are neglecting others.

The Taoiseach is responsible for Government policy and, that being so, he generally falls in for criticism under this Estimate. I notice from the Press that he was down in Longford last Sunday. He has succeeded very well over a period of years in finding explanations for the people whenever it was his duty to come before them and, in particular, an explanation whenever he thought his efficiency was put to the test or his failure to do the things he has promised to do if given the opportunity to do them. He tells us now that he has only grown into manhood and, naturally enough, you cannot expect a lot from him from birth to manhood. Now that he is a man, anything may happen in the near future. If we are to listen to as many promises in the next 15 years and, at the same time, benefit so little from the Taoiseach's policy, then I am afraid this country will have gone a long way towards bankruptcy.

The Taoiseach talked about the harvest to be reaped in the future from the Fianna Fáil policy in the past. I should like to know what that harvest will be. I can see very little in regard to the development of the country on which the Taoiseach can pride himself, with the exception of the high taxation. That is the only thing he can feel proud of, if it is a thing to feel proud of.

In this newspappr which I have the Taoiseach is shown addressing the people at Longford. It does not show him, however, heading the procession into the town. At one time they always gave a picture of that. For obvious reasons, I suppose, they left it out. Perhaps it was not a big one. He tells us that one of the difficulties we are faced with now is the shortage of man-power. Was the Taoiseach in earnest; was he really truthful, when he told the people of Longford that the Government were now faced with a shortage of man-power to implement their schemes? If the Taoiseach will come with me to-morrow to the Permit Office at Merrion Square or the L.M.S. booking office, where people get sailing tickets, he will get abundance of man power. If he goes there for a few weeks he will get more than he requires of man-power, if he is able to find employment for these people at a decent wage. What humbug it is to stand up in the courthouse in Longford and tell the people that.

They know very well.

Since the Government came into office there has been a constant increase in taxation, a steady decrease in population and a steady increase in emigration. No matter how clever the Taoiseach may be, he can find no explanation for these things, except that he and his Party have failed to do the things they intended to do.

The people are leaving this country in greater numbers than ever. They have been leaving the country not merely since the beginning of the war. but before the war in greater numbers. Since the Taoiseach took up office that increase in emigration has been noticeable. It is no excuse to tell us that that is due to the fact that wages are higher across the water. These high wages were not being paid prior to 1938 or 1939, and yet that increase in emigration was very noticeable. With that increase in emigration we had, of course, a decrease in the population here and a constant increase every year in taxation, with very little results from that increase in taxation, except the few social services which have been introduced, such as widows' and orphans pensions which only cost £2,000,000.

Let us take the fall in agricultural production, the fall in the production of milk, the fall in the production of butter and cheese, the fall in the production of pigs and the fall in the production of poultry and eggs. All these things in relation to our principal industry are a sufficient commentary so far as the Government are concerned. If you take the main industry of any State and you find a decline attached to it, such as the decline in our main industry here, that is a sufficient condemnation for any Government, not to speak of other things. We see no hope for agriculture so long as the gentleman the Taoiseach has placed of late in that responsible Department— Mr. Smith——

The Minister for Agriculture.

The Minister for Agriculture. So long as he remains there, there is little hope for agriculture. He is the man who got up here the other night and spend three hours talking. He said little throughout the three hours beyond praising himself, saying he was a fine man and a good man who had made mistakes and was able to correct them. He was lambasting everyone around him, including the farmers. He has no respect for the sacrifices the farmers made during the past six or seven years. He was merely insulting them and telling them how he would make them do their job.

There was a debate on agriculture lasting three or four days. The Minister listened to Deputies. Now I think that debate could be left out.

I will not go into it in detail. I am merely referring to it and I think agriculture was submitted to you as one of the subjects that would be discussed on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

Yes, but not for a rehash of the Estimate.

I will not rehash it. I am referring to it as conclusive proof that the position in relation to agriculture to-day is sufficient for me to suggest that the Government policy should be changed or else it is time to change the Government. Agriculture was the one industry on which the Taoiseach and his Party used to harp prior to coming into office. They told us about the things they would do for agriculture, how they would develop it, expand it and get markets abroad, apart from the market their predecessors had. They pointed to the employment which agriculture would give when developed. These were the things the Taoiseach said he would do and these were the things which put the Taoiseach sitting where he is to-day.

The Deputy must realise that there were five general elections since, and they might count for something.

The Taoiseach still talks about agriculture. He tells us he has now reached the age of maturity and we should give him time to develop his agricultural policy. I think it is very important that we should get to know what he will do, now that he has reached the age of maturity and has got common sense. Apparently he is developing a new line of policy. Whether he will pursue it or not is another thing. We are expecting the fruits now, whatever they will be.

At the present moment we are faced with the very serious problem of emigration. No matter what may be said by the Taoiseach about wages, employment, food conditions and the conditions on the other side of the Channel, it cannot be denied that our people are desirous of going there and they would not be desirous if the conditions there were not better than the conditions here. Across the Channel there are opportunities which our people have not got in this country. Not only are our boys going away, but our girls are going away, too. Now and again you will read of some lady who finds it very difficult to get house help. She puts a letter into the paper making a case about preventing these young women from leaving the country. Others suggest we should import Germans or Italians to take their places.

If the people who at one time employed our girls had treated them half as decently as they are treated on the other side of the Channel, our young girls would not be leaving this country now. If they gave them decent wages and conditions and good housing accomodation, they would remain here. The fact is that domestic servants were not treated here as human beings. They left to take up more suitable employment and receive better consideration in other lands. That is why our young women emigrate. The same applies to those who go in for professional occupations. There are better conditions, better wages and shorter hours across the Channel. The same applies to our young men.

Nothing the Taoiseach or anybody else can say in the form of letter-writing or speech-making in Longford or anywhere else will change the situation, unless there is an improvement in conditions of employment and wages here. That is what will alter the situation and nothing else, unless the Taoiseach intends to set up a dictatorship and prevent them going by closing the ports. I will take good care that he does not do that. He would not enjoy the fruits of office very long if he did that, and he knows it. The day he puts a stop to emigration, that is the day he meets him doom.

The Deputy should now deal with the Estimate.

I am dealing with the Estimate from the point of view of emigration.

There is no law preventing emigration.

There is, to a certain extent, and I intend to refer to that in a few moments.

Quite right, if the Deputy so desires.

While I am opposed to emigration, I am in agreement with it in so far as it is warranted owing to the peculiar position here. I maintain that if our young men and women are unable to get suitable employment and suitable wages here, no barrier should be put in their way if they seek employment elsewhere.

I hold it is wrong for the Govern ment at the present moment to put a barrier in the way of young men in the West of Ireland whose forefathers have been migrating to England and who have secured seasonal employment there, not only for themselves but for their sons who followed them. The Government have treated these migratory workers as one would treat a stray donkey, found on the roadside. The stray donkey is taken in to a little farm, harnessed to gather turf or to put out manure on the potatoes. Then the harness is taken off, he is given a kick and let go. The migratory workers are treated in the same manner by the Government. They are held at home to cut turf at a cheap rate. If they dare to ask for a decent wage, they are criticised, held up to public odium and told that they are doing an injustice to the community at large. When the turf is cut, they can go wherever they like to earn a livelihood in any shape or form they may determine. They are given no security for the remainder of the year, which I think is wrong and unfair. The Taoiseach in Longford talked about the big fuel effort. He said that the Opposition Parties blame the Government for everything, that if there is a shortage of fuel they will be blamed for it.

That is true.

You will certainly be blamed for it because you did not deal with the workers in a reasonable manner. You wanted them to work under conditions that were not reasonable.

These matters were all discussed on the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce.

What am I to discuss?

It is for me to say what the Deputy may not discuss. There is nothing about turf production in the three items, notice of which was given by the Deputy's Party.

I admit there is nothing in them about turf production, but from the trend the discussion has taken one cannot help mentioning these things. I thought I might be allowed to refer to turf production.

Agriculture, emigration and unemployment.

I understand turf production comes under the heading of agriculture.

What about the hauliers' strike?

I think if the Government were sincere in their efforts to provide fuel for the people living in the cities and towns, they would ensure early in the year, or even well before the year began, that those employed in turf production would receive a decent wage and that they would live under decent conditions in places like Kildare, where they live on the communal system, in huts and camps. Surely you cannot expect a good return from men who are living under bad conditions and who are receiving small wages.

They are not living under bad conditions.

Turf production is not agriculture.

A Drainage Bill was introduced in this House over three years ago and we were told that the country was to be drained immediately. The Government were brought to the country that time on an election issue and the whole of the Opposition were held up to scorn by the Government because it was alleged that they were delaying the implementation of that Bill. The people who were told that if the Government were not to go to the country the Drainage Bill would then be law and that every farm in the Twenty-Six Counties would be drained. The Drainage Bill got the unanimous support of every Party in this House.

Did the Deputy not say all this on the Vote for the Office of Public Works?

I did not make any contribution to the debate on the Board of Works Vote. We do not hear a word about that Act now, and we blame the Government for their failure to implement that Act. We make no apology for blaming the Government for that. They got ample opportunity to put it into operation. They got the unanimous support of every member of the House and of the local authorities. The excuse now put forward is that there was a lack of machinery and dredgers, but a lot of that work could be done with the ordinary spade and shovel.

All this was debated on the Vote for the Board of Works.

The next point I should like to make has referece to housing conditions. Deputy Dockrell referred to the fact that there was a custom in existence that when the middle-class got tired of living in middle-class houses, and when the private investor had built more modern houses, members of the middle-class automatically vacated these houses and went into the modern homes and that then, as in the case of second-hand clothes on the market-square, the workers came in for the second-hand houses. He thought that was a good idea.

I did not say that.

I want to tell Deputy Dockrell that he is living in 1947, that every worker now thinks he is as good as any member of the middle-class, and that he is entitled to the same conditions or even better conditions, because after all it is the worker who produces these things. If we build mansions we are entitled to live in mansions.

Who is going to pay for them?

It is surprising how you pay for them. There are several ways of finding the money. I do not believe myself in the type of tenements that have been erected for the last ten or 15 years in Dublin. They are very dreary. You would not know whether they most resembled barracks, jails or county homes. Certainly I should not like to live in them. I think the nicest type of house is the one-family house. There the occupant feels that he has a home into which nobody else can intrude.

The Deputy is dealing with Local Government.

Housing certainly should receive the attention of the Government not merely in Dublin, Cork or Limerick but in small country towns. The country towns have been neglected for a considerable period. In fact in some country towns nothing has been done since the change of administration here in 1922. There are country towns in the West in which poor people are living in the worst type of hovel, a disgrace to civilisation and particularly a disgrace to a Government that professes to be Christian and Catholic.

I did mention on the Vote for External Affairs a question which I should like, with your permission, to mention again. That is the passport and permit system.

That does not arise at all, obviously, this being the same Minister.

I know it is the same Minister but what I want to ask is this: is it the Taoiseach who is responsible for the maintenance of the passport and permit system?

It is not relevant to this Vote.

The Deputy knows that he can get that information by way of question at the proper time.

Drainage is not relevant, turf production is not relevant, housing is not relevant. I shall sit down until you, Sir, tell me what is relevant.

It is not the duty of the Chair to tell the Deputy what is relevant. It is a principle on this Vote that the details of Estimates previously discussed should not be re-discussed. The question of passports is surely a detail already discussed.

Is the Taoiseach as head of the Government not responsible for the stupidity of some of his Ministers because of their failure to do their job?

I do not see where the relevance of the Deputy's interruption, or alleged point of order, comes in, the Taoiseach being responsible also for the Estimate for the Department of External Affairs.

I did not say that he was stupid; I know he is not.

On a point of order, can a Deputy not discuss any matter for which the Taoiseach, as head of the Government, is responsible? I believe he can. It has been the practice for four years since I came into the House.

I am the judge as to what may be discussed, and I told the House at the commencement of business what would be discussed, as I had been informed by the Party.

You can go on. With all due respect to your ruling, I submit that one of the subjects that we wanted to discuss was agriculture. Another was drainage and another housing and you have prevented me from discussing any of the three.

No, only the details.

I have not gone into details. Procedure is not details.

Procedure, or the type of house built in Dublin.

When I was speaking of the type of house built in Dublin I was speaking in the plural sense. I asked the Taoiseach if he were not responsible for the maintenance of the permit system between Great Britain and Ireland, and why he was maintaining it the way it is.

And I will not answer any question on that on this Vote. The Deputy will have other opportunities of asking the question.

That is fair enough.

That is bringing this House into disrepute outside.

Of course it is—making little of the House.

The Taoiseach talks of the Irish language as one of the aims of his Party, and the principal aim in his policy—national unity and the fostering and development of the Irish language.

Neither of which is on the programme before me, submitted by the Party.

No, Sir, but still it has come up in the discussion from other Deputies.

It has not.

I did not hear it discussed.

I would like the Taoiseach to give to the House an explanation, as far as his policy is concerned, in relation to the development of the Irish language.

It is not on the programme.

It is not on the programme but it is admitted that the development of the Irish language is downward.

That was all discussed on the Vote for the Department of Education.

I admit that, Sir, but the Taoiseach is responsible. He is the head of the Government and he claims to have a special interest in the subject. We hear that from the Taoiseach on every platform throughout this country.

It is not in order.

With all due respect to you, Sir, I suggest that in dealing with Government policy, the Taoiseach being responsible for that particular policy, I am entitled to question the Taoiseach on it.

The Deputy will now sit down.

Right you are, Sir.

The Deputy was told twice that it was not in order, and yet he continued.

Well, I will be wiser next time. This time next year, please God.

I look upon this Vote for the Department of the Taoiseach as a stocktaking of Government policy, and I think that on occasions like this, when the Taoiseach presents his Estimates to this House, there should be a general stocktaking of Government policies by all Deputies. I believe that if there were such a stocktaking there would be very useful hints and suggestions brought forward by Deputies in opposition, and by some members of the Government too, as to where improvements could be made if Government policy were not satisfactory. I think that an expression of views as to whether Government policy had been very favourable or otherwise would be very helpful. In my opinion, the policy of the present Government for the past 12 months and for previous years has been responsible for bringing about the fast approaching death of the Irish nation. Government policy is pushing the Irish nation off the map. We have every section of the Irish people discontented. The farming community are discontented. We have the greater section of the Civil Service discontented, and so are the Army and Garda Síochána. School teachers are discontented, and the ordinary working-class people, such as agricultural labourers, as well as the taxpayers, who have to bear the heaviest burdens, are discontented. In fact, we can say that by far the greater part of our people are discontented—all except bankers, capitalists, black marketeers, racketeers, and people who are making a good thing out of the present position, a good fat and stout living at the expense of the ordinary taxpayer——

How do you know they are not discontented, too.

At least, they have no cause to be discontented.

They are the Government's friends.

They are only catering for capitalists, millers, and all the others who are making fabulous profits and turning over good dividends at the expense of ordinary working-class people, at the expense of the producers of the ordinary necessaries of life. Never before had the country to face such a huge bill of taxation as we have to face this year. Only the Government policy of waste and squander-mania can be blamed for the huge increase in taxation. Surely, that is something the Taoiseach has responsibility for? It is something that his Government are responsible for. We hear a lot at times of the Government in the United States, but if we study the position in that country we find that the statesmen in America are not wasting time in quibbling about what happened in the past. They are planning for the future of their State.

There are people like Deputy Flanagan in America, too, notwithstanding that.

We would all be very interested to know what plans the Government have made to bring about future prosperity in the country. Have they plans under consideration for reduction in taxation in the coming year? Have they made any plans or have they under consideration any steps to be taken about controlling the cost of living—and the cost of living must be controlled in this country— because to-day our taxpayers and the general public are in the position that while the cost of living is going up by leaps and bounds, the increases in wages they receive go up only with the speed of a snail, and no matter what increase the ordinary man gets or what increase is secured by the agricultural worker or turf producer, or whoever he may be, it is practically useless because the cost of living goes up immediately.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

I think that we should hear something from the Taoiseach as to future Government policy. We know what has happened in the past. We know that tremendous blunders have been made. Let us hope that these blunders are not going to be made in the future. The Taoiseach and other members of the Front Benches should not believe every time a Deputy on this side of the House rises to speak that he is rising to criticise Government policy. We have had good reason to criticise Government policy in the past and probably will have reason to do so in the future, but I believe that honest criticism is very good. I believe there are members on this side of the House who are anxious to co-operate with the Government and give them real support in any measures they may introduce that would lead to a better standard of living for our people. We are prepared—I am, for one—to stand solidly behind the Government in any action they may take that will be for the bringing about of happiness and prosperity in the country. The Fianna Fáil Party have reached their twenty-first year and, though they have celebrated their twenty-first anniversary, it is quite evident that they have not yet reached the use of reason. I think that we are entitled to have a stocktaking of their activities and to inquire if it is their intention to carry on in the same way in the future as they have done in the past. If so, it is time that the people woke up and had them removed from office.

Criticism comes from all sides of this House. We are always complaining of the actions of the Government. We see that they are failing to fulfil their obligations to the people and we know that the remedy is to have them removed from office. While we may be divided in this House into small groups, there is one main object that should be in the mind of every citizen and of every member of this House and that is if the men who sit on the Government Benches are not giving satisfaction, we should unite to remove a dishonourable group who are lowering the dignity of the nation and the standard of living of our people. It is up to us to unite on that issue alone for the purpose of giving the people an alternative Government. If the people to-day had an alternative Government, I believe the Fianna Fáil Government would not last 24 hours. They are whipping dead horses because they know they are pretty safe. They know there is no Party in the country strong enough to oust them from office. We are the very men who are complaining about Government policy and it is within our power to offer the people an alternative Government. If the people had an alternative group with a clear-cut policy before them, a policy which would raise the standard of living, they would elect that Government.

The policy of the present Government has been based on false and misleading promises. They have not fulfilled one promise they made to the people. One of the first things they were to do was to end unemployment for all time. We have heard the statement from the lips of Government spokesmen that not alone was full-time employment to be provided—that every man, every available woman and every young boy in this State of working age would be put to work at decent wages —but efforts would have to be made to bring back those who emigrated and to put them into full employment. Our industries were to be put working to the fullest capacity. Sound industries were to be established in as many areas as possible. Agriculture was to be put on a sound basis. There were to be no more poor farmers. Sufficient capital was to be placed at the disposal of farmers to enable them to increase production. Land was to be divided. Huge schemes of land division were to be carried out.

The ranchers and the industrialists and the capitalists were to have their profits controlled. These were the promises made by the men opposite to secure power. None of the promises made, and which the electors conscientiously believed, has been fulfilled. The huge ranches have not been divided into economic holdings. The landless men, the Old I.R.A. and the cottage tenants have been forgotten. They were to be provided with sufficient land to graze their live stock. They were to be financed and to be put in a position to produce food for man and beast. Those who promised full-time employment and decent wages were the very men who were responsible for putting into operation the standstill Order.

A good deal has been said about emigration. Emigration is still continuing, despite the fact that the Taoiseach realises that every man who emigrates is a loss to the nation. We are losing man-power and providing it for production elsewhere. We are told that 185,000 of the cream of Irish manhood were compelled to emigrate because they were denied work, food, shelter and clothing at home by a native Government who had promised them full-time employment at decent wages and failed to fulfil their promises. We see 185,000 gone to the land of our traditional enemy to work in the coal mines of England or to serve in the R.A.F. Those men have been denied the right to live and work in the land of their birth. This very day young men are flying from this country like the swallows in the autumn. They are going in groups, in organised bands. They are parading to the houses of Deputies to ask them to expedite the issue of their passports. They are queueing up outside the British Permit Office, day by day, waiting for visas to get going.

The men who sit opposite should hold down their heads in shame. All any man has is a word of honour. A word of honour is a golden word and what can we think of the honour of the men who made these promises and who, at stages even went so far as to vow to the people that as soon as they were returned to power all the national ills would be remedied? I can say that the position in this country-to-day has never at any time been worse. I believe that with five years more of Fianna Fáil policy this country will have suffered from emigration to such an extent that it will be a complete desert. Every young man who possibly can go out of the country is going and I say more luck to him. No young man and no working man can be expected to stand with his shoulder to a lamp post or holding up the street corners while in receipt of only a miserable allowance of unemployment benefit or dole. The man in receipt of the dole or unemployment benefit is living on the generosity of the State or of somebody else. It is in his blood, as an Irishman, to be independent, to work by the sweat of his brow, and to provide for his wife and family. He does not wish to be parading the streets or holding up the street corners or standing at the lamp posts. He wants work under proper conditions and with decent wages. While we have working conditions as they are in this country to-day, with wages pinned down to such a low level in spite of an ever-increasing cost of living, the only alternative for our workers is to seek a standard of living, a decent wage, and work under better conditions elsewhere. It is only natural to expect that when one secures employment with better conditions and wages elsewhere that such employment will be accepted rather than remain at home in this country to labour under conditions which I can only style as slavery: to drudge for a county council or for any local authority as a road worker, or on building schemes. Whatever the employment available at home may be, the conditions are not what they should be. The wages certainly are not wages which would enable workers to live as good Christians—if they are single to marry and to bring up their families in Christian decency.

I think that is the only subject that should be taken and tackled by the Government. If those on the opposite side of the House do not tackle the question I hope, please God, that we will soon see the day in this country when we will have a Government that will realise their responsibilities to those people and realise their responsibilities to the nation in general—a Government whose primary interest it will be to safeguard the Irish nation from complete decay and to give our people a proper and a decent standard of living. I believe that if the Government does not tackle the question of working conditions, tackle the question of wages, and bring about some scheme whereby full-time employment will be provided for all, with decent rates of wages, that that problem will be tackled by some Government some day that will take the place of the men sitting opposite who, I suppose, are begging God's forgiveness to-night, if the truth were known, for the deceitful manner in which they have conjured the votes of the honest citizens of this country.

Uriah Heep is only trotting after you.

I am only endeavouring to educate Deputy Loughman. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see him and everybody like him realise his responsibilities to the taxpayers. I believe that Deputy Loughman and his Party were the very men who walked up these Division Lobbies within the past 12 months and voted solidly against a miserable increase of 10/- per week for the old age pensioners when that motion was brought before this House. However, Deputy Loughman and his colleagues had the courage and audacity to walk up the Division Lobbies and vote for an increase of £12 per month towards their own salaries although they could not extend their generosity to vote an increase of 10/-for the most unfortunate section of our people to-day, namely, the old age pensioners. The sooner that is realised by the ordinary man in the street, the better. The sooner that is realised, the sooner we will have less of Deputy Loughman's type and less of the Fianna Fáil Party in this House.

I am very sorry to think that, despite the fact that we in this country have to-day reached a stage where we have unemployment, poverty, emigration, debt, low wages, starvation, forced sale, seizures, high rates, increase in the cost of living by leaps and bounds and wages at rock-bottom level, we still have people who would prefer to remain under these circumstances and who would prefer to see our people living under these deplorable conditions rather than that an alternative Government be given to the people which would endeavour to face up to the facts and ensure that our people would be given a better and a greater standard of living. I am very much afraid that we are living in two Irelands to-day. In my opinion, the country is completely divided in two— an Ireland for the rich and an Ireland for the poor. The Government are catering especially, wholeheartedly, and loyally for the Ireland of the rich. They have completely forgotten the poor. There is not even a vague thought for the Ireland of the poor which was on the lips of every Government spokesman 16, 17 and 18 years ago. The Fianna Fáil Government is, perhaps, the oldest Government in the world to-day. I believe that as the oldest Government in the world no Government has made such stupid blunders as the Fianna Fáil Government have made in this country. I may say that consideration has never been given to questions such as the continued increase in taxation by the present Government. These are questions which affect the ordinary taxpayers, which affect the representatives, and which affect every citizen and subject of the Government. But the Government are not concerned as to whether the people can meet these taxations, how these taxes are paid, or out of what these huge fabulous bills of taxation are to be met.

Only quite recently some local authorities in Ireland—perhaps even every local authority—were requested by the Government to make arrangements for the planning of road-making for 1970 or 1972. The local authorities were requested to appoint, in some cases, four and five extra engineers for the purpose of making a survey of the main roads of this country so that a huge scheme could be carried out in the year 1970 or thereabouts when we shall have two-way roads. The local authorities were asked to appoint four and five additional engineers. I would like to know if these local authority engineers are to lay down their minds to the consideration of improving the main trunk roads of this country and to make them attractive for the Dodge motor cars of Ministers with their State-paid chauffeurs. Are the roads being improved for the purpose of attracting tourists and others who would be only using the main roads? There is no suggestion that these additional engineers should devote some of their time to improving the cul-de-sacs leading down to the farmers' homesteads or the ordinary by-roads on which it is almost impossible to travel to-day in any county. Government policy is catering for the rich and completely neglecting the poor.

This is an agricultural country designed by God for that purpose, and no Government can ever make it an industrial or any other type of country. Agriculture is the premier industry. Until such time as we have a Government which realises that agriculture is the main industry we shall be faced with the national ills with which we are faced to-day and have been faced for some years past. How are we to increase production? I believe that the question of increased production could be tackled within 24 hours. With all due respect to the present Minister for Agriculture, I say he is bound by Government policy; that he cannot go outside of Government policy. No matter what may be the policy of Deputy Hughes's Party, I believe that if Deputy Hughes were in the place of the present Minister for Agriculture production would be considerably increased in three years or a lesser period. I do not know what the agriculture policy of Fine Gael may be, but I can see the defects of the Fianna Fáil policy. I can see that the Minister for Agriculture is only a cog in the wheel and can do nothing except carry out the policy of the Government. I believe that we will have a still further increase in agricultural production.

At one period this country was able to feed 8,000,000 people. To-day we have a population of a little more than 2,500,000 and we are not able to feed them. There are something like 12,500,000 acres of arable land in this country. Economists tell us that half an acre will produce enough food to feed one person for 12 months. We have 12,500,000 acres of arable land and a population of 2,500,000, and yet there is not sufficient food produced to feed the population.

It would be all right if we had monetary reform.

Even if we had monetary reform and if money was flowing out of the doors of the banks, it would not be worth a thraneen unless you had the production behind it. Money is of very little use if you have not something to purchase with it.

The Deputy is learning something.

I can tell the Taoiseach and Deputy Allen that if I filled Deputy Allen's pockets with £10 notes and sent him down to Mountmellick, where we have a bacon factory, he would not get five pounds of bacon for it.

He would get it in Monaghan.

If anyone ever got it in Monaghan, Deputy Allen belongs to a Party which would make it available.

It might be greasy bacon.

Certainly Deputy Allen's former colleague, Deputy Ward, slipped on the greasy bacon. I am endeavouring to educate Deputy Allen and I am telling him that if he had his pockets bulging with five pound notes they would be useless to him unless he had something to purchase with them. As Deputy Allen knows, money is only a medium of exchange. The real wealth of any country comes from the land— the wheat, the oats, the beet, the barley, the pig and the cow. These form the wealth of the country. It is by increasing the production of these that we will make this a prosperous country. As long as we have these produced in sufficient quantities we will be able to meet our own requirements and have a surplus for export. So far as the export of food is concerned, although this is an agricultural country we can see clearly to-day the results of a bad, unsound, insane Fianna Fáil policy with regard to agriculture. With 12,500,000 acres of arable land, our people at one period could only get two ounces of butter per head per week and very little bacon. Beef has gone up to such a price that no workman could afford to buy a pound of it.

It is very peculiar that in an agricultural country we cannot produce sufficient wheat for our own requirements, thanks to Government policy. Our people have been obliged to eat brown dirt in the form of bread for some time past. It is a wet, spongy substance which would destroy the healthiest man's digestion. Before the flour was changed, a farmer or a labouring man could secure a bag of good wholesome wheaten flour, but now he has to pay the same price for this brown dirt. It has never been explained to me why, when flour was reduced in quality, it was not reduced in price. Our people are obliged to pay the same for this horrid mixture as for the good, wholesome wheaten flour when it was available. We are fleecing the people who have to purchase this brown dirt and pay first-quality price for it.

I submit that some people are making a huge profit as a result of this. The Government should investigate the matter and publish a return showing the profits of the millers. The millers and the bankers are two sections who are making huge profits. It is bad policy not to hold an investigation into the profits of the capitalist classes who are making these huge profits at the expense of the people.

A general improvement can be made in our agricultural production. Our pig industry has been completely destroyed. The commission established by the Government was responsible, in my opinion, for destroying the pig industry. It is a deplorable thing that bacon has become a luxury for the ordinary people. One would require tremendous influence to secure bacon nowadays. Indeed, it has become only a memory to some of the ordinary working-class people. We are told that everything possible is being done to increase agricultural production and provide sufficient food for the people. The manner in which agriculture has been conducted is nothing less than an outrage. Our farmers are not in a position to increase production on the land. The Minister for Agriculture has made a hopeless hash of his job. I think it was Deputy Dillon who stated that the Minister's predecessor was a catastrophe and that this Minister would be a disaster.

Several days were spent discussing the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture and the Deputy is repeating what was said on that occasion.

It is not my own opinion I am expressing; I am quoting what is recorded in the Official Debates of this House.

It is purely a repetition of what was said in that debate.

It was said by another Deputy and I submit I am entitled to quote the Deputy or the Taoiseach or the Minister for Agriculture in connection with any speech made here during the past 12 months.

The Deputy must not go back on matters already fully discussed. There would be no end to the discussion if that were allowed.

I am endeavouring to deal with what I know is a fact. I am referring to the failure of the agricultural industry. I believe that unless the Government change their policy the agricultural industry is doomed.

You told us that six or seven times.

I could not tell it to the Taoiseach often enough. Unless there is a change, it means disaster for the people. It is very hard lines when the Government, who have been listening for 15 or 16 years to sound advice from this side of the House, will not accept that advice and perhaps, in those circumstances, it may be difficult for them to accept the small contribution I am making to this debate.

Let us go away from the agricultural side now, realising that a hopeless blunder has been made. I can see very little hope of our farmers increasing production while they are allowed to remain in such circumstances as now exist. There is only one thing to do and that is to see that our farmers are properly financed, that funds are placed at their disposal to enable them to increase production. If they have not sufficient funds it cannot be done.

A good deal has been said about drainage and many demands have come from our people in relation to the Government's drainage policy. Let us examine some of the reasons why the Government cannot provide full-time employment for all.

The Deputy has already dealt with that matter.

I am referring now to drainage, not to full-time employment.

You referred to drainage also.

With all respect, I did not; it was Deputy Cafferky who referred to it.

The Deputy referred to drainage and to the Fianna Fáil Government's intentions in that connection. You criticised them and surely you are not going to start all over again?

I am afraid the Leas-Cheann Comhairle has not been listening to the debate. I made no reference to drainage. I would like to refer to the need for a national drainage scheme. I earnestly appeal to the Taoiseach to see that a national drainage scheme is undertaken with the least possible delay in view of the disastrous floods which were responsible in many counties for the destruction of the harvest and also in view of the fact that every year we have such continuous, heavy flooding. The condition of the City of Kilkenny was just as if an earthquake had occurred there, following the heavy floods last year. Despite the strenuous appeals made by the Bishop of the Diocese of Ossory, the Most Rev. Dr. Collier, and public representatives, no steps were taken to implement a scheme whereby the unfortunate people of the city, and others who are suffering through lack of a proper drainage scheme in the Midlands and elsewhere, would be relieved of the distress and hardship which they had to suffer for so many years.

In the case of the River Shannon, very extensive schemes will have to be carried out in order to relieve the unfortunate people, whose plight is really deplorable. The Arterial Drainage Act was passed here quickly a few years ago. It could not be passed quickly enough to permit the work to be started, according to those responsible for it, but the moment it was passed it was left in the office of the Board of Works and has not been put into operation. I would like the Taoiseach to use his influence with the responsible heads of the drainage section, get them to wipe the cobwebs off the Act and have it put into operation as soon as possible.

With regard to housing, the Taoiseach is well aware of the very alarming position that exists in the country. Never before in our history were there so many families in such a very serious plight. The people are very discontented and they find fault with the Government for their failure to provide sufficient houses. Every member of a local authority will realise the great outcry there is through the country for suitable housing accommodation with proper sanitary arrangements.

There is no money to do the work.

Unless the Government tackle the housing problem, which is becoming such a serious one all over the country, a really grave situation will arise. I think it is a disgraceful state of affairs that in many houses, not alone in the city but throughout the country there are no less than three or four families living in one room. At the same time we hear the Government and the Taoiseach preaching a policy of Christianity and saying that we have a Catholic and a Christian country of which we should be proud. I say that we should bow our heads in shame when we remember the manner in which our people are housed. I have known cases in my own constituency where as many as 25 persons have to live in a small labourer's cottage. One case was brought to my attention no later than Sunday last where an unsuccessful application for a cottage was made by a man living in a two-roomed cottage despite the fact that there were 22 persons there already. That happened in Laoighis but it is only one case of perhaps thousands throughout the country.

The Government must admit their failure to provide houses for the ordinary working-class people. Not alone have they failed to provide houses for working-class people but what is worse still, no attempt whatever has been made to provide houses for middle-class people. Many middle-class people in my constituency are paying as much as £2 10s. 0d. a week for one room or for one small flat, while houses could be built to accommodate these people and let to them at the reasonable rent of 10/- a week.

I believe that some steps will have to be taken by the Government in regard to the control of the rents charged for these rooms or flats. Some steps will have to be taken to safeguard the unfortunate people who have either to seek accommodation in caravans by the roadside or to take forcible possession of these flats for which fabulous rents are being charged at present. A man must seek shelter somewhere in order that he may live in decency and that his wife and family may be protected from the weather. I believe that a drastic change is necessary in this direction. As far back as 1932 we were promised a huge housing programme but still the housing problem remains to be tackled almost in its entirely and properly completed. There was a great and growing demand for houses in these years but never has there been such a demand as exists to-day and serious consideration will have to be given to the question of properly financing local authorities by providing funds free of interest or at low rates of interest for the purpose of carrying out large housing schemes in every country in order that the housing needs of the country may be properly met. Our people are deserving of better housing accommodation than is available for a very large section of them at the moment.

I say it is against all Christianity to have three or four families living in one house or in some cases in one room. That is against all Christian law but the Government has done nothing whatever to provide houses for these needy people. The ideal to be aimed at is to provide each worker with his own house because, as the old saying has it, if a man owns his own house he is king of his castle. To-day we see the vast majority of our people living under the roofs of houses owned by other people from which they can be removed on 24 hours notice.

With regard to the Government's policy on national unity and the question of the language, these are undoubtedly very vital questions.

These questions have been already ruled out of order as not coming within the prescribed subjects for discussion.

So far as our young people are concerned, the vast majority of them are embarking on the emigrant ships day after day.

The Deputy dealt with emigration already.

The Deputy is only wasting the time of the House.

With all due respect to the Taoiseach——

Is the Taoiseach getting annoyed?

I should like to listen to some common sense.

I think it is high time that the Taoiseach took a dose of his own medicine. For many years while he was in Opposition he hurled charges at the Government then in office.

We are dealing with this Estimate, only so far as one year is concerned.

We are dealing with the fact that the Taoiseach says he does not care to waste the time of the House. That is a statement which I believe has been made unconsciously by the Taoiseach because on many occasions he hurled a series of accusations against the Cosgrave Government when he was sitting on the far side of the House.

The Deputy is now introducing matters that are irrelevant. He should deal with the Taoiseach's Estimate for the current year.

In view of the fact that Government policy is under review here to-night, I should like, with your permission, Sir, to request the Taoiseach to give us some information, if it is possible for him to do so, with reference to the question of the representations that were made to the Government by either the British or America authorities in regard to the deportation of Germans from this country.

That was a matter for the External Affairs Vote. All these maters should be brought up on the appropriate Votes.

With all due respect to you, A Leas-Chinn Comhairle, I understand that it is not a matter for the Department of External Affairs. It is a matter for the Department of Justice and it is the Minister for Justice who deals with these matters.

I am ruling the matter out of order. It is not a matter for this Vote.

I presume that you are ruling it out of order on the assumption that it is a matter for the Minister for External Affairs. I submit it is a matter for the Minister for Justice.

It does not arise on this Vote.

The Taoiseach as Head of the Government is responsible for the actions of each individual Minister.

And for some of their stupid decisions.

Each Minister has to speak for his own Department. We cannot have collective criticism here of all Ministers.

It would be only right to know——

If the Deputy is not going to be directed in his discourse by the Chair, he will have to sit down.

I have the greatest respect for the Chair and I always wish to be advised and guided by the ruling of the Chair, but I should like on this occasion to inquire whether we can discuss not only the Estimate for this Department, but other matters for which the Taoiseach, as head of the Government, is responsible.

The Taoiseach is certainly responsible for the stupid decisions made by some Ministers in his Government.

The Deputy will not attack any other Minister on this Vote. The Taoiseach has to speak for his own Department and in a general way Government policy may be discussed in relation to certain specific matters of which he has been given notice.

The Taoiseach is responsible for the nomination of these Ministers and he is, therefore, responsible for their conduct.

The Deputy is trying to cause obstruction.

I shall have to ask the Deputy to sit down if he does not observe the rules of order.

Are we to understand that in a debate on Government policy we cannot question the Taoiseach in regard to the actions of his Ministers seeing that the Taoiseach is responsible for their nomination?

The Deputy may not.

That is a new ruling.

Each Minister in his individual capacity is responsible for his own Department.

Under the supervision of the Taoiseach.

I understood a Minister got his seal of office from the Taoiseach.

Certainly, and he is responsible to this House for the administration of his Department.

If the Minister goes away from his office who is responsible?

Do not be raising frivolities. Let the Deputy please continue his speech, but continue in order.

In view of the fact that I cannot raise the matter now about the responsibility of the Minister, I am satisfied with your ruling, Sir, that I can raise the matter again at an early date, and go into it fully with the Minister who is responsible for the subject I had intended to raise in the course of the debate on the Taoiseach's Estimate. I had intended to ask the Taoiseach——

Are you making a speech now?

I am not making a speech, Sir.

You are trying to raise a wider issue which you were told was out of order.

I am quite satisfied with your ruling, Sir, and I bow to your ruling on that, but I say on the question of the Taoiseach's Estimate, that I do not know what consideration the Taoiseach's Government has devoted to the manner in which the majority of our people are compelled to exist.

You are out of order again?

I was only saying, Sir, that we have one section of our people in the country for which we all have a great respect. Every Deputy in this House and every responsible citizen outside it, was at one stage of his life told to honour and respect the old and the aged. I have to take this opportunity of calling the Taoiseach's attention to the condition of the old and the aged——

The Deputy will listen to me: I will really ask him to sit down, if he persists in bringing in this matter of the old age pensioners.

I never mentioned them, Sir, and I say that with all due respect to you. Deputy Norton and Deputy Cafferky are there and they will admit I made no reference whatever to the old age pensioners.

The Deputy will resume his seat.

I would be glad to obey, but I do not like to lose this opportunity of protesting. I do not like to be accused by the Chair of acting in a disorderly way. I know you have a terrible time, Sir.

The Deputy is not to answer back.

But, I want to point out to the Chair——

If you do not obey the Chair you will get out of the House. You will sit down, or get out of the House. I will have no more controversy about this.

But, Sir——

You will sit down at once.

You cannot call the Captain of the Guard because he is not appointed yet.

Leave the House at once, I will have no more of this.

All right, Sir, I am going. I do not want to be out of the House for a month.

I have a few points to put before the Taoiseach, but I do not want to go into detail. I would like to get an outline of post-war policy from the Taoiseach, taking into consideration that during the emergency period and even prior to it, there were people who had a tradition of tillage. I notice that it has been stated by a member of the Government that it is the aim of the Government to import great quantities of grain. Is that going to be in the interest of the tillage farmer? I would like to ask what is the line of policy in that regard for post-war agriculture. It is a well-known fact that during the emergency period many people embarked on tillage and went to considerable expense in the purchase of machinery and equipment of farms generally.

I would like to know from the Taoiseach what his future policy about grain growing will be. Recently, the Minister for Agriculture stated that he is importing 300,000 tons of wheat. That amount would be about the amount generally required in a year, and that is why I would like to know if it is the Taoiseach's intention that the Government should draw a line across the policy carried out by the Government since 1932. That is an important matter, because farmers who have undertaken heavy outlay for the equipment of their farms would like to get a guarantee that it would not be lost.

There is another point to which I would like to draw his attention. For a long time I have been trying to press the Land Commission as regards repairs to embarkments and the protection of land generally against flooding. I would like if the Taoiseach could say that it was his intention to make some provision for protection for people who have been paying rent for a long number of years, even before the Land Acts came into force and away down the years, and since the passing of the Acts up to the time of the 1923 Act and the amendments made in 1933 and 1939.

If these farmers have been paying for 100 years, they are entitled to some kind of protection for their land. If they get that protection and the land is not suitable for tillage, it will be suitable for grazing, and we know that grazing is as valuable to the country now as it was at any time. Taking into consideration the necessity for milk and milk products, grazing land is very valuable and this is not the type of land that would be used for tillage.

I would ask the Taoiseach to give a direction to the commissioners that land so affected would be protected. I raise the matter not from the point of view of criticism, but merely to seek information. Another matter which I have raised many times here in the course of debate is the provision of a national water supply. It is a big question, I know, but we might get at it gradually.

I am afraid that subject will not be allowed in on this list of subjects.

With all due respect, I am only suggesting that the Taoiseach might discuss the matter with the Department concerned. I am not offering it as criticism. The farm improvements schemes are very much appreciated in the country generally, and the Government are getting much admiration for them. I think that the provision of water for rural areas and for schools could be included——

Out of order, Deputy.

I am only pointing it out.

It is out of order to point it out in this debate.

I submit to your ruling.

You might report progress now.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 2nd July.
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