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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Oct 1947

Vol. 108 No. 6

Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1947—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill is put before the House in pursuance of Article 16.2.4º of the Constitution which requires that the constituencies, as determined by law, shall be revised at least once in every 12 years. The Constitution came into operation on the 29th December, 1937, so that the 12-year period began to run from that date and is now drawing to its close. The revision can only be effected by legislation and the legislation proposed will take some time to enact and still further time will be required to make the necessary arrangements to put it into effect. It is, therefore, not only desirable, but perhaps imperative that the provisions of the Constitution in regard to the revision of constituencies should be fulfilled without delay.

Clause 2 of the Article governing this matter, that is Article 16, prescribes that the total number of members of Dáil Éireann shall from time to time be fixed by law in such a way that there will be not less than one member for every 30,000 of the population nor more than one for every 20,000. The preliminary Report on the Census of Population, 1946, shows that the population of the State is 2,953,420. In the preface to the Report, as no doubt Deputies will have noticed, it is stated that this figure is provisional and subject to amendment; nevertheless I think it is sufficiently definite when a unit of 20,000 or 30,000 is concerned to enable us to proceed with the revision now. After full consideration it has been decided to apply the lower ratio of population in fixing the total membership of the Dáil and accordingly the total membership of the House, as proposed in Section 2 of the measure, has been fixed at 147.

If this proposal is approved, the next Dáil will have nine members more than the present House. The only criticism I have seen so far of the proposals in the Bill has been directed against the proposed increase. This criticism emanated, I think, from the editorial chairs of the Dublin dailies; from the pens of those whose Parliamentary representatives live in the same town, perhaps even in the same district as themselves, so that they are readily accessible to them if they require to consult with them or seek advice or assistance from them. No doubt city newspaper editors and leader-writers seldom do seek such assistance or advice. On the contrary, they look down from their editorial arm-chairs and sheltered seats upon members of the Oireachtas, and think themselves competent to advise and lecture the practical men of affairs who are engaged here in the arduous task of administering the manifold public business.

That is not the situation, however, in which most people living in rural areas find themselves. There, in general, either they or their Parliamentary representatives have to travel great distances, should it be necessary for them to consult with each other upon a matter affecting the personal interests of the electors or of their class or district. Indeed the complaint which is most frequently heard is that Deputies are not in sufficiently close contact with their electorates. In the case of many of the existing huge, sprawling constituencies it is, I submit, physically scarcely possible for a Deputy to maintain that contact which is so essential if the collective wisdom, judgment and experience of his constituents are to be at his disposal to assist him to come to a right judgment upon the important issues that arise for decision here in the Oireachtas.

Indeed I think that a close association of Deputies with their constituents is essential for the proper working of our system of representative democracy. Saying that, I do not mean to imply that a Deputy should become a mere delegate or agent for his constituents. Far indeed from it. A Deputy should remember that the Oireachtas is a corporate entity, a representative Assembly, acting for the nation, that he is a responsible element in that entity, that in this capacity his obligations are not only to his constituents or to those of them who immediately supported him, but to the nation as a whole. As the whole is greater than the part, therefore, a Deputy's obligations to the nation must override every other. Nevertheless, a Deputy should frequently meet his constituents and consult with them upon their concerns and upon the public issues of the day, so that in discussion he may not only enlighten and guide them in regard to such issues, but may clarify his own mind, fortify his own convictions and enhance his capacity to speak and act in the common interest. I suggest, therefore, that everything which reasonably can be done should be done to enable this association to be readily maintained with ease and convenience to the people themselves. And in my view it would be a grave departure from right principles to make it even more difficult to do this than it is now, by further curtailing the already too - limited representation which the large scattered masses of our rural community have in the Dáil.

Rather should we endeavour to increase this representation, if possible, so as to make it easier for the people concerned to see and meet their representatives, should it be necessary for them to do so. It is true, of course, that under the provisions of the Constitution we may not be able to do very much at the moment in that regard. Indeed, in the present instance by reason of what I hope will be only a temporary decrease of the population in certain areas, the problem has been to maintain the rural representation in general, while having due regard to other factors which I shall mention later.

But if we endeavour to provide for the needs of the rural areas by maintaining or, where permissible, increasing their present representation, we cannot, in an unjustifiable attempt to keep the membership of the Dáil to a minimum, endeavour to offset the increase in the membership allocated to rural communities by depriving the cities of their due and rightful representation in the Assembly of the nation. Indeed the Constitution forbids it, for sub-clause 3 of Clause 2 of Article 16 prescribes that so far as practicable the population ratio per member for each constituency shall be uniform throughout the country. Therefore if the representation accorded to rural areas is increased, or with a falling population therein is only maintained, the representation of the larger urban units must, in accordance with the principle of uniformity, be increased also, for beyond any doubt such an increase within the terms of the Constitution is quite practicable. It would not be equitable, for instance, to allot only one member to every 25,000 people in the County Borough of Dublin, while giving one for every 17,500 persons in some rural constituencies. Bearing in mind, therefore, the two considerations which I have mentioned, viz., first the need to allocate representation to the rural areas with due regard to the needs and convenience of the inhabitants thereof, and, second, to give effect to the provisions of the Constitution in regard to uniformity, so far as is practicable—and in determining what is practicable we must advert to certain considerations which I shall mention later—it has not been possible to fix the total membership of Dáil Éireann at less than 147. If any smaller number had been taken, not only would some rural areas have been deprived of adequate representation but other important considerations could not have been given due weight when making the revision.

While population may be applied to measure the representation to be accorded to any given unit of territory, there are other factors to be taken into consideration if a rational scheme of constituencies is to be evolved. For instance, as I have already stressed, the area of the constituency must not be so large that effective representation of its inhabitants is not possible, nor should it be broken up by difficult physical features, so that sections of its population are virtually isolated from each other. Indeed, the people of an area which is to be constituted as a constituency should have a certain identity of interest and local tradition, a character, so to speak, of their own, a clannishness, not indeed narrow and parochial, but sufficient to make them sensible of a common social obligation to each other, which will influence them not to take too personal or selfish a view in public affairs. And last, but not least, the constituency should be as administratively convenient as possible.

Administrative convenience can hardly be claimed for quite a number of existing constituencies. Take the present constituencies of Wicklow and Wexford, for example. Both of these constituencies now include large portions of the administrative County of Carlow, so that the constituency of Carlow-Kildare (so-called) only includes the remnant and not the whole of County Carlow. Again the constituency which has been officially named Meath-Westmeath, despite its name, does not include the whole of Westmeath. It includes a large part of that county, the remainder of which is merged with the whole of County Longford and about one-fifth of Roscommon in the constituency which is known as Athlone-Longford. Similarly the present constituency of County Dublin includes a large portion of Dublin County Borough; Clare appropriated a large slice of Galway and Leitrim a substantial portion of Sligo; while Waterford absorbed parts of Cork, in the shape of Youghal and its environs.

The difficulties and confusion occasioned by the anomalies I have mentioned have been such that several authorities in the local administrative units concerned have been moved to protest against them and by resolution have requested me to make the scheme of constituencies consistent with the existing local government administrative units. These resolutions have been kept in mind in formulating the new scheme, and therefore the new constituencies have been delimited so as to be consistent, within reason and where practicable, with the boundaries of the administrative counties. No doubt if the area and configuration of every county had been better adapted to our task a better and more uniform scheme could have been devised. But the sizes and shapes of the several counties being what they are, it is exceedingly doubtful if a better scheme could have been prepared than that which I am now putting before the House.

By Sections 3 and 4 of the Bill, Deputies will see that the total membership of 147 is allocated among the several constituencies in accordance with the particulars set out in the First Schedule to the measure. The First Schedule not only makes this allocation but particularises the several constituencies and sets out the districts which are to be included in each. The constituencies consist in the main of the administrative counties. An administrative county is the functional area of a county council, so that these areas are well known. They will be easily recognisable therefore by the general body of electors who will know that they will vote in that part of the administrative county in which they pay their rates.

In some cases it has been necessary to sub-divide an administrative county. In these cases the division has been made on the lines of well-defined smaller units in the shape of the district electoral divisions but so that the population to member ratio will be reasonably uniform in the same county. For example, in the case of Cork, the ratio is practically identical in each of the four rural constituencies ranging from 19,505 in Cork south to 19,756 per member in Cork north.

In the borough constituency it is 21,407 due to the fact that in constituting the new constituency suitable district electoral divisions contiguous with it had to be joined with the county borough and that it is not practicable to divide these. It was not considered practicable or desirable, either, to alter the boundaries of existing constituencies merely in order to equalise the population ratios where the difference between them was not too great; and this applies to the existing constituencies in the Counties of Donegal and Mayo. In North Kerry, which has now four seats and which it is proposed to retain under the new scheme, the population per member is 19,000, while in South Kerry the ratio on rechecking has been found to be 18,072. A slight adjustment of the boundary between the existing Kerry constituencies is proposed in the Bill because we were proceeding there on the basis of the old rural districts so that it might follow the boundaries of these old rural districts. It now transpires, however, that the proposed adjustment would reduce the population ratio in South Kerry relative to that in North Kerry and it may be necessary to move an amendment in Committee to restore the existing Parliamentary boundary between the constituencies. That boundary, of course, lies within the County of Kerry. In the case of the constituencies within the County Borough of Dublin, the ratio, with one exception, ranges from 19,674 in Dublin North East, to 21,263 in Dublin North Central. The exception is Dublin South Central, where it is 23,159, but here advertence has been had to the fact that the population is likely to be reduced by further housing operations, as well as to the convenience and desirability of conforming to the existing ward boundaries where possible. It may be desirable, however, to make a further adjustment of the boundary between Dublin North Central and Dublin North East, so as to equalise the population-ratio of the new constituencies and I think that can be done in such a way as to give us a straighter and more easily identifiable boundary.

In making the revision every effort has been made to keep the ratio of members to population, so far as is practicable, uniform throughout the country; but this uniformity cannot be more than partial because of the wide diversities in the area, population and geographical characteristics of the different counties. It is obvious that if the administrative county generally is to be taken as the fundamental unit there must be variations of appreciable size. On the other hand, if constituencies were to be so defined that the ratio of members to population was identical everywhere the areas so created would be difficult to identify clearly and define. Furthermore, the people in such constituencies formed after this fashion would not be bound together by any of the affinities which constitute an essential feature of a real constituency.

From the Schedule to the Bill it will be seen that the maximum number of members to be returned by any constituency is five. There are nine constituences returning five members each, nine returning four members and 22 returning three members. Under this arrangement, no real effective interest is debarred from securing representation in Dáil Éireann. At the same time, it is made easier for a Party which may be called upon to shoulder the responsibility of Government to get sufficient seats to enable them to undertake that task with adequate Parliamentary support.

In considering the proposals for the several constituencies it is essential to remember that the ultimate purpose of a general election is not only to provide the State with a Legislature which will be fully representative of the opinion, will and sagacity of the people, but also to provide it with a Government which will be stable and capable of acting with authority, decision and leadership in all the nation's affairs. No Government can be a good Government unless it is effective, and under our system of government no Government can be effective unless it is firmly supported by an adequate majority in Dáil Éireann. The history of every Government since 1923 illustrates that fact. We have had general elections in June, 1927, February, 1932, July, 1937 and June, 1943, all of which failed to give a decisive result, so that the Governments formed after these elections were compelled by the exigencies of the day and of the Parliamentary situation to make a fresh appeal to the electorate after a brief period of office. Thus we had the elections of September, 1927, February, 1933, May, 1938, and May, 1944. Now, it is folly to have to do by two elections what should be done by one, namely, to provide the foundation and representative support upon which a strong and stable Administration may be based. It is as necessary now as ever that the country should possess such a Government. As Professor Hogan says in his book, Election and Representation:

"There are the strongest reasons why we should welcome, under almost any conceivable circumstances, the possession of a strong and constant majority in Parliament by whatever properly-constituted Government happens to be in office."

Again he says:—

"There could be no fallacy more disastrous in its consequences than to think of the representative process as primarily designed to neutralise, checkmate, or obstruct the activities of Government."

And from this he goes on to say that

"the fatal flaw of proportional representation is that in so far as it tends to the coalition form of Government—and full proportional representation and some kind of degree of coalition are actually inseparables— the coalition is bound to be made up of minorities, and must accordingly be lacking in the basic condition of stability and initiative."

How true this is has been evidenced by the recent history of Governments in Europe since the cessation of hostilities in August, 1945. The adoption of systems of proportional representation in France and in Italy have produced a plethora of minority parties in their Legislatures. In consequence those countries have had a succession of coalition Governments, each of which has endeavoured to maintain its precarious tenure of office by political shifts and bargains among parties in order to form coalitions so that when they most needed it, countries, whose affairs they were endeavouring to administer, were left without that firm and decisive leadership which only a Government with sound and adequate support in Parliament can give.

Proportional representation, however, is enshrined in our Constitution, and while we may frankly recognise its defects as an element in the process of constituting a Government, we must accept it as a principle and apply it for the purpose of securing a Legislature.

But in doing so we are bound not to forget that, as I have said, a general election has a dual purpose: it is intended not only to provide us with a Legislature but with a Government as well. And we must attach at least as much importance to the latter as to the former. In short we must remember that while the Legislature should be representative the Government must be strong.

Professor Hogan, in the work from which I have already quoted, considers these two desiderata and comes to the conclusion that so far as our country is concerned,

"if we are to find the right point of equilibrium between popular representation and popular government"—we would require—"in the first place a considerable increase in the number of three-member constituencies."

This, as will be seen, is provided for in the Bill which proposes to increase the number of such constituencies from 15, as at present, to 22. The professor further suggests the introduction of a number of two-member constituencies into the general scheme. It is, however, not thought feasible to adopt such a proposal, since the Constitution prescribes by sub-clause 3 of Clause 2 of Article 16 that "no law shall be enacted whereby the number of members to be returned for any constituency shall be less than three".

It has not been possible with due regard to the other considerations which ought to be taken into account in delimiting the several constituencies to have only three-member constituencies, and, therefore, five-member and even four-member constituencies have had to be provided for in the scheme. Though the results in five-member constituencies tend to be less decisive than in three-member, nevertheless, they are preferable to four-member areas, because they do tend to give a decision in favour of a Party and a policy. Four-member constituencies on the other hand almost invariably result in such a division of Parties that it is safe to say that if all the constituencies in Dáil Éireann were on a four-member basis, a single-Party Government and, therefore, stable Government could not be formed; so that the country's affairs would be administered by coalitions. As to the desirability of which, I may again quote Professor Hogan, who says:

"Inasmuch as the personnel and policies of such coalitions are necessarily in the nature of a compromise between the different claims and viewpoints of the Parties concerned, the main business of their formation will have to be effected after election and behind closed doors...""Proportional representation in creating the necessity of coalition, at the same time creates a Parliamentary oligarchy, a Government by Parties rather than a Government by the people through the medium of Parties."

I have tried, therefore, to avoid the creation of four-member constituencies in the Bill. That has not been possible, but I have managed to dispense with seven-member constituencies of which at present there are three: one in Dublin City South, one embracing Tipperary County, and one embracing Limerick County. The net result of the revision will be that instead of 34 existing constituencies, the Bill will provide for 40, of which 22 will be three-member constituencies, as against 15 at present. Four-member constituencies will number nine instead of eight; and nine will be five-member again instead of eight. On the basis of this distribution the country should be able, when called upon, to give a definite decision as between parties and policies, while at the same time the truly representative character of Dáil Éireann will be adequately safeguarded by the reasonable application of the principles of proportional representation.

To provide for this is the main purpose of the Bill. The measure also contains certain minor machinery sections. Section 5 is one of these. Under it the constituency of South Galway will be deemed to be the constituency corresponding to East Galway for which the Ceann Comhairle was deemed to have been elected in the Revision of Constituencies Act, 1935.

Section 6 is another. It embodies a necessary consequential provision whereby the registers of electors will indicate the existing and new constituencies. Should it become necessary to hold a by-election for an existing constituency between the date of the enactment of the Bill and the next general election, this section makes it possible to use for that by-election the register prepared for the general election. The general election, however, though it may take place on the same register as a preceding by-election will take place in the revised constituencies.

Section 7 defines the returning officers. There is no real change here, but the sheriff for a county or county borough will be the returning officer where a sheriff is appointed. In Dublin County, however, the present under-sheriff will continue to be returning officer for the area approximate to the area for which he is under-sheriff, and for which he acts as returning officer at present.

I may say that the Bill represents a consolidation of the law relating to the revision of constituencies. In the Second Schedule the provisions of the 1923 Electoral Act dealing with the division of the country into Dáil constituencies and the entire of the amending Act of 1935 have been repealed and it is proposed to re-enact them in this Bill.

Anyone listening to the Minister's statement, particularly the second half, must appreciate that there is a humorous side associated with Parliament and Parliamentary life, because we have this new Electoral Bill defended at great length, and very ably defended, by the writings of Professor James Hogan. In other words, the writings of Professor James Hogan are to influence the minds of Deputies, but the Minister and his Government ensured that the voice of Professor James Hogan would never be allowed to be heard in the councils of Dáil Éireann. If that particular professor is such an outstanding authority on matters of this kind, surely he would have been a credit, an ornament and an asset in this Parliament. But the Minister, his leader, and his colleagues were determined to deny to the Parliament of this country the abilities of that particularly distinguished professor.

Now with regard to this Bill, I think it is due to the Minister, as the principal architect of this Bill, to say straightway that I agree with him wholeheartedly in his denunciation of the previous Electoral Act, the mutilation of counties, the scrapping of towns, taking them out of their county and pitchforking them across water and mountain into a foreign constituency in order to bolster up a political Party. That was scandalous; it was outrageous; and the people and Parliament that stood for that kind of thing were only canting humbugs when they deplored Partition imposed on us from outside. No matter what faults there may be in this Bill, no matter who may be upset, irritated or annoyed with regard to alterations in their own particular constituency, the Bill certainly should be welcomed if it were only on one ground alone—that it respects county frontiers, county boundaries, and has restored them to their proper place.

Those who argue about history may hold that there is nothing sacrosanct about county boundaries. Nevertheless, they have been there for a considerable number of years. They have become, particularly since the passage of the first Local Government Act, administrative units and the trade of a county is, to a very great extent, done within its frontiers. The development of sport and competition in various walks of life has further accentuated the importance of county boundaries or frontiers. The last Bill violated every bit of patriotic sense which electors had, in the county interpretation of the word. It is well to develop county pride and dignity, just as it is well to develop national pride, and with a county mutilated and its electors voting in three different constituencies, as happened to some of the electors of County Carlow, it was a trampling on county dignity and county pride. In so far as this Bill undoes all that wrong which was carried out by the previous Bill, I certainly recommend it to the House and think it should be welcomed, and the Minister should be commended and congratulated on that Part of the Bill.

Aside from that, there appears to have been an endeavour to bring Dáil Eireann to its very maximum, to give the very greatest number of Deputies it would be possible to carry in Dáil Eireann. I do not think that is fair to the taxpayer. I do not think it is either just or reasonable. Money may not count; tens of thousands of pounds may not count very much when viewed through Ministerial spectacles, but when one considers that there is no place in which to find that money but the trousers pockets of the people, it is entirely unreasonable that, in a jaunty fashion and defended, as anything can be defended, by clever debating points, we should take advantage of the constitutional necessity for a revision of constituencies to increase the number of Deputies by nine and the taxpayers' bill by at least £10,000 a year. With an allowance of £600 odd and other expenses taken into account, I venture to name that figure and to suggest that the imposition we are placing upon the taxpayer through the medium of this Bill is an imposition of an extra £10,000 a year.

Leaving debating points on one side with regard to the juggling and balancing as between populations in the areas of greatest density and areas of least density, there is one thing which must strike the ordinary taxpayer in the eye, and it is that, for a falling population, with fewer people in the country, we are looking for more Deputies at immense cost to the taxpayer.

Soft jobs.

That is the position and something more than these points made by the Minister, some better case than all this juggling as between populations in the cities and in the counties, will have to be made for that relatively large increase in number and the very great increase in cost.

In this Bill, we have the maximum number of three- and four-member constituencies. If the Minister's speech was not an unconstitutional speech, it certainly was the most significant anti-constitutional speech I have listened to in this House for a great length of time. The Constitution has tied this country, for better or for worse, to proportional representation. The Minister quite evidently regrets that. He might find others in Dáil Eireann to regret it, but they would not be so unblushing in bringing in legislation to water down, to neutralise, or, as far as possible, to double-cross that clause in the Constitution as the Minister tells us he is doing here. Proportional representation, according to the Minister, is an unfortunate encumbrance which we have here. It is the kind of encumbrance which, unless it is checkmated or neutralised, will lead to a weak and ineffective type of Government, and the Minister's solution is to water down the constituencies to the maximum extent, so that we have 22 three-member constituencies, out of a total of 40 constituencies, in which a majority of one elector will give a representation of two Deputies to one.

So far as possible, the Ministerial effort, and admittedly so, is to get away from the principle of proportional representation. That principle has some historical and honourable significance in this country of ours. This State is only 25 years old. It had its embryonic stage, and, during that embryonic stage, it was essential to bring as much support and nourishment as possible to the embryo which in time was to be born as an independent State. Every pledge in the most significant way which could be given to get the support, the loyalty and the allegiance of the minority in this country to that State about to be born was given, and amongst those pledges was one that, inside the framework of the new State, the principle of proportional representation would hold—representation for minorities, and, as minorities were understood at that time in Irish public life, it was mainly in reference to a religious minority, a religious minority which did not represent more than 10 to 15 per cent. of the population.

If that pledge was to be carried out and incorporated in successive Constitutions and honoured in spirit as well as in letter by the various Electoral Bills, our aim would be the maximum number of large constituencies—fivemember, seven-member and even larger —so that an electorate representing only 10 to 12 per cent. would be assured of one seat or some representation. In this Bill, providing mainly for three-member constituencies, we have ensured that a minority consisting of as large a section as 25 per cent., or one-quarter of the electorate, will, in the vast majority of cases, not have a hope of getting representation.

In 22 constituencies out of 40 we are ensuring that no minority will get representation if it does not constitute one-third of the electorate. Constitutionally tied on to the spirit of propor tional representation, I say that we are violating the spirit of the Constitution when we deny representation to a section of the electorate in 22 constituencies, where they constitute one in four of the electors of these constituencies. Any observations that apply to three-member constituencies, apply with practically equal force to four-member constituencies. We have 31 constituencies out of a total of 40, consisting of three or four-member constituencies. Of course three-and four-member constituencies, and the abolition of all constituencies greater than five-member constituencies, undoubtedly liquidate small Parties, whether existing small Parties or coming small Parties. They are, undoubtedly, going to get it very hard. Where heretofore they could get one seat if they had one-seventh of the electorate behind them in some constituencies, or where they would get a seat if they had one-fifth of the electorate behind them in a considerable number of constituencies, now they find that they must have the support of one-third of the electors in order to get representation. There is no arguing that the further we go along the road indicated by this particular Bill, the further we get away from our much acclaimed Constitution and the further we get away from the pledges we gave in the early days of the State.

I am not breaking my heart about the Constitution any more than the Minister but since it was enacted I have certainly never made such an anticonstitutional speech as the Minister delivered here this evening. What is his defence or his apologia for straining the Constitution to the very bursting point? He made a good case, a sound case and, I will pay him the compliment of saying, an honest one, namely, that all this proportional representation stuff was a bit of a nuisance, that all they wanted was strong government. When the Minister says strong government what he means is a regimented majority. If a majority means strong government, where the views of no other Parties count in the national councils, then there is only one way to have really strong government and it is the cheapest way of all—to abolish the Dáil, to have a Front Bench dictatorship, an Executive Council dictatorship. You can have a dictatorship by the proletariat just as you can have a dictatorship by an individual or by a caucus. But the appeal made for strong government by the Minister, with the background of the last 15 years, is government by a regimented majority, to vote down the voices, the opinions and the views of any electors or representatives of electors that have a representation in this House of one less than half the total.

Where is the regiment now? There is not one Deputy on the Fianna Fáil Benches behind the Minister.

You will get strong government when the bell will ring. That is the indication of strong government—not a case made, not a number of voices raised, but "Tramp, tramp, tramp the boys are marching" when the bell rings.

On that point, may I point out that this strong Government has only one Deputy sitting behind the Minister?

Deputy O'Higgins has emptied the House, so what can I do?

Is the Deputy drawing attention to the fact that there is not a quorum present?

Yes.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

I was saying that the Minister's idea of strong government is a docile regimented majority that will put through all legislation brought forward by the Government, irrespective of views or opinions expressed from any other quarter of the House. He is entitled to that view but that is certainly not an expression of a democratic attitude from a democratic point of view. Nobody claiming to be a democrat, speaking for the electors of a democratic country, would subscribe to that view. I would be inclined to say that a better type of Parliament, certainly a more democratic type of Parliament, would be provided if you had a Government over there with say 60 Deputies, a Party opposite with 30 or 40, and three or four other Parties, numbering 12 or so each, so that the Government for any piece of legislation would have to get at least the support of one of the four groups opposing them. That would be real democracy. That would ensure that legislation introduced would embody the views, the unfettered, undriven views, of a majority of the electors. With a strong Government with a disciplined majority, with a majority that must march and must vote according to how they are told, you can have very terrible things and very unfortunate things done in the name of strong government and in the name of Party discipline.

We had over the week-end the exhibition of a Minister weeping Ministerial tears at a public meeting for a vote he had to cast with regard to the safety of the people in this country in 1931. He said that he did the wrong thing, that he never regretted any act of his life more than he regretted that vote, but the Party whip cracked and he had to vote that way. If that is strong government, if that is democracy, then I do not think that it is a thing to be aspired to, or to be aimed at in the legislation passed by this House.

It is fortunate for the House that the Minister's deluge of eloquence was so mixed up with the truths and beliefs inside him that he let out in that current his disrespect for the Constitution, his disrespect for normal democratic actions, and his statement that what is aimed at in this Bill, which increases the representation in Dáil Eireann and the burden on the backs of the taxpayers, is in fact to give a dominant majority, and as far as possible a permanent majority, to the Party in power. That may be a rather loose and free translation of the Minister's statement——

It is both loose and free.

It may not be so free as the Minister's. A man stands up here from a Ministerial Bench and says the important thing is to elect a strong Government — not a representative Parliament but a strong Government— and in order to attain that object he proposes the maximum number of three- and four-member constituencies and he goes further and states that we are, however, tied to proportional representation through the Constitution, "and," he says, "proportional representation has all the faults that I am going to read out to you", and then he illustrates his disrespect for proportional representation and for the Constitution that carries within it proportional representation by giving illustrations of its weakness in other countries. In the light of that, I do not think my interpretation is either too free or too loose. Aside from that, I think the restoration of county borders is of such immense value that it overrides other details in the Bill. If this Bill depended for its passage on my individual support, it would get that support in spite of these flaws that I have indicated, because flaws they are.

Whatever good points may be in this Bill, I think they are more than outweighed by the outrageous proposal to increase the membership of this House. Were any public meetings held in any part of the country demanding an increase in the number of T.D.s? Did any deputations wait upon the Minister in the Custom House demanding that we should have more Deputies? Were there any parades or demonstrations calling for additional Deputies? So far as I am aware, the opinion in the country is that we have quite enough members in this House. This opinion was strengthened in the minds of citizens who visited this House when matters of national concern were under consideration. The people who sat in the Public Gallery when important national affairs were being discussed frequently found that there was a House of less than 20 Deputies out of the 138 elected.

Look at your own benches.

How many farmers are there behind Deputy Cogan? Where are Deputies Blowick, Donnellan, Cafferky and the rest?

Deputy Blowick and other members of this Party are fighting the Minister in a farming constituency and I believe they will give a good account of themselves.

They are not in the Dáil now.

They will deal effectively with the Fianna Fáil Party in the coming election. For more than half-an-hour this evening the Government Benches in the House were empty, if we except one weak Minister and one good lady Deputy. The remainder of the Fianna Fáil Deputies were either asleep or rambling somewhere, and the bell had to be rung for five minutes before they came into the House. They would not be here now if the bell was not rung to call them up.

The bell was not loud enough to wake up members of your Party.

The situation here when the bell had to be rung and when a count of the House was demanded reminded me of the Irish poet who wrote:

"The brutish jailer serenely slept

While the nation around him wept."

The Fianna Fáil Party slept serenely in various parts of this building while the Minister sat in the House and the bell had to be rung in order to make them attend to the business here.

Major de Valera

The trouble is that the Deputy talks in his sleep.

It is seldom we have as good an audience on the Fianna Fáil benches as we have now. I shall enjoy having that audience and I shall enjoy telling them what I think of them all. The Minister talked about a strong government, about the desirability of having a strong government. Let us look back over the history of strong government in this country. When Fianna Fáil were in a minority here in 1933 they passed the only progressive piece of social legislation that we have experienced in 15 years—the legislation dealing with family allowances. They were forced to pass that measure because they were in a minority. During the two periods when they had a clear majority over all Parties the only outstanding legislation they passed was that increasing their own salaries.

The Minister's case for this Bill is based on his desire for a strong government. The proportional representation system more or less cuts across his ambition of having a clear majority, of having a condition of affairs in which he can come here and, whenever his opinion is challenged, he can summon his battalions to vote every one else down. The Minister is straining the Constitution to its last thread. We used to hear the Minister and his leader talking in the old days of the first Constitution of this State as a thing of shreds and patches. The Constitution introduced by this Government will soon be a thing of tears and tatters because in this Bill, as well as in other directions, the Constitution is being unduly strained. Our present Constitution provides that we shall not have more than 147 Deputies or less than 98. This Bill proposes to give us the 147. If the Minister wishes to enlarge the Dáil still further, he will have to go outside the Constitution, as his Government did when they introduced the Sinn Féin Funds Bill.

Let us ask ourselves what all this talk is about the defects and flaws of the proportional representation system. What is the fundamental principle of proportional representation? It is simply that every organised section of the community shall get adequate representation in the Dáil. Is there anything wrong or fundamentally unsound in that principle? Is it not the essence of democracy that the various free associations of our people should have adequate voice in our National Assembly? The Constitution—and every democratic constitution—provides for the right of free association among citizens. Surely it is only in conformity with that principle that free associations of citizens should find full representation in the Parliament of the nation? In our particular circumstances as a young nation, proportional representation is particularly desirable. We have a small religious minority. It was necessary that they should be incorporated into the State and brought into our active public life.

In addition to that, we have the Northern problem, the problem of the Six Counties. We look forward to that area being included and integrated into our State. Is not proportional representation the most desirable thing to attract those people, to show that in this State when they decide to come in here they will get adequate and full representation, that they will not be completely snowed under and eliminated by a straight-vote system?

On every conceivable ground, proportional representation is desirable. It was considered sufficiently desirable to have it enshrined in the Constitution. The Minister has sought, as far as it is in his power, to defeat the spirit of the Constitution and to eliminate proportional representation. He told us that he toyed with the idea of two-seat constituencies.

I did not say anything of the sort.

The Minister is getting vexed.

It is no trouble to Deputy Cogan to invent that.

The Minister did refer to the fact that the idea of two-seat constituencies was in his mind.

I did not.

The Minister should endeavour to conduct himself. I did not interrupt him.

If the Minister says he did not state so, the Deputy must accept the disclaimer.

The Deputy was engaged in another smash-and-grab raid.

The Minister has made another smash-and-grab raid and his colleagues and assistants in his Department have made enough smash-and-grab raids in the last four or five years.

The Deputy still has his swag in his pocket.

If the Minister were as careful as he is in piloting Bills of this kind through the House, we would not have these smash-and-grab raids in the Department of Local Government.

The Deputy should deal with the Bill.

I have indicated that the proportional representation system does not conflict with the idea of good government. We had good government in 1943, when the Fianna Fáil Party was in the minority. We had progressive legislation in that period—we had a good Drainage Bill and a Children's Allowances Bill enacted and the country carried on, notwithstanding the fact that the Government had not a clear majority over all Parties in the House and notwithstanding the fact that Deputies of that Party could not sleep in peace to the same extent as they can when they have a clear majority over other Parties.

There are no fatal flaws in the proportional representation system. It is the ideal system of representation to a democratic national Assembly. The vital flaws are not in the proportional representation system, but in the manner in which it is attempted to implement it in this House. If we believe in proportional representation, if we accept the Constitution and wish to live up to the spirit of the portion of the Constitution which provides for proportional representation, we should not reduce the number of seats in the constituencies but we should seek to have as many five-seat and seven-seat constituencies as possible. I believe that the five-seat and seven-seat constituencies give fairer representation to all sections of the community than a three-seat or four-seat could possibly give. What is the objection to a five-seat or seven-seat constituency? The Minister might say that the area would become too large. Well, under this Bill there is a five-seat constituency in Carlow-Kilkenny and I do not think it is too large or too unwieldy for any Deputy to travel over it and attend to the needs of all portions of that constituency. Personally, I think that Carlow-Kilkenny is a more convenient constituency than Wicklow County, which is divided by a range of mountains and which, by its natural configuration, is very difficult to travel over. There can be no objection to the five-seat constituency on the ground that it is too large or unwieldy.

Here we have a remarkable state of affairs. One would imagine that, in the City of Dublin, where the population is concentrated and where the area is large, if we were trying to conform with the principle of proportional representation, we should have a five, six or seven-seat constituency. There are no reasonable grounds to be advanced in opposition to the five-seat or seven-seat constituency in this city. It is quite convenient for any Deputy to travel over half the city and keep in touch with all parts of his constituency. But the one and only object of this Bill is not to provide for constituencies of such a size that Deputies may be able to keep in touch with their constituents, but to ensure, as the Minister says, that there will be strong government and that one Party, a Party which can gain 51 per cent. of the electorate, will have two seats out of three. That is the fundamental object of this Bill. There is also the other object enshrined in the increase in the number of Deputies, that is, to ensure that, if and when the Fianna Fáil Party lose a certain amount of support, they will still be able to retain nearly as many seats as they have at the moment in this House.

All these petty little Party objectives were undoubtedly in the Minister's mind when he was drafting this Bill and when he talks about the national interest we may take it for granted that he was simply talking nonsense. I have often wondered why, having accepted proportional representation as the desirable system of election to this House, we have not sought to have real proportional representation here. We have not sought to have real proportional representation. We have not sought to carry the principles of proportional representation to their logical conclusion and ensure that we should have a Government in power which would be proportionally representative of all Parties in the House. I have frequently put up a case for this arrangement. In some democratic small countries in Europe this method has been adopted and it has worked well. The single-party system of Government was good in the old days, in the Victorian period when life was less strenuous than it is to-day, when the difficulties facing a Government were less intense, and when politics were more or less a game which could be played at leisure.

At that time it added zest to the game to have ins and outs in public affairs, to have one Party in power for five or six years and then another to take its place. To-day we are living in more difficult times. During the 1914-18 war Britain had to drop the single-party system and adopt a representative all-party Government. It was the same in 1940 when the nation was faced with almost complete extermination. We have now in Britain— although it is hardly fair to criticise another nation—a single-party Government, and we know how inadequately it works. The Minister has attempted, as far as it is in his power within the Constitution, to abolish proportional representation. We should aim rather at widening and extending the system and at making it a real factor and have all Parties take their share in the responsibilities of Government. We are enslaved with the ideas of what prevailed in Great Britain, but the single-party system is completely outdated.

The Minister referred to France and the number of Parties there. There is no analogy. No matter what system they have in France—and they have changed their system of election a number of times—they always seem to have difficulty about forming a representative Government. A number of small nations, Denmark, Holland, Belgium and Switzerland, which have an established Government for a long period, have not a single-party Government but a Government which is representative of quite a number of Parties.

I quite agree with Deputy Dr. O'Higgins when he condemned the previous attempt at gerrymandering constituencies. That is the kind of thing that you get from the single-party Government; it is an attempt to carve and slice constituencies in the interests of the Party involved. Now, with the uprise of Clann na Poblachta and a division in the Fianna Fáil Party, the Government do not know where they stand in the constituencies and find that the gerrymandering they did at that time does not carry any weight or serve the purpose for which it was originally intended.

In the long history of Government in this country over the past 25 years there is ample evidence that proportional representation, given a fair trial, is the best system, and that the single-party system has worked badly. I would like someone to imagine the history of this country and to conceive what it would be like if we had adopted the system of representative Government in 1926, 1932 or 1937. Many of the tragedies which happened since then would have been avoided.

This Bill is an outrage on the public opinion of the people of this country. The Bill attempts through this House to increase the cost of the House and of the Government by increasing the salaries for all concerned and then demands an increase in the number of Deputies. I suppose before this Dáil ceases to exist legislation will be introduced to increase the number of Senators. The policy is that we must make as many jobs as we can. Every Bill provides more and more jobs and more and more people on the pay-roll of the State. The legislation which increases the number of Deputies is mainly at the expense of rural Ireland and tends to overload the House with representatives. It is time for us to realise that this little island of ours is completely lopsided. It is a small depopulated nation with a huge wealthy overpopulated city. It is something like the position of Austria in the inter-war period when Vienna was a huge city supported by a small impoverished nation. It is time to call a halt to this policy, and on this the House should be unanimous and all Deputies who are not slaves to the Minister should be unanimous.

I think that a good deal could be said for revision in a number of constituencies which could be described as being large and unwieldy, but the manner of revision proposed will do violence to the principles of proportional representation. It would be far more honest to introduce a measure doing away with proportional representation rather than to seek to achieve the same result in an indirect form. The Minister has expressed his reasons for creating a large number of three-member constituencies and he has made no bones about it that it was because he desired a strong Government and to secure an over-all majority. He cannot quarrel with the results of proportional representation during the past 15 years.

There were repeated occasions when the present Government had an over all majority on proportional representation. The fact remains that the central figure of this Bill is—and this is the cause of most of the objections to it— that in these constituencies it is only necessary that one Party should get 51 per cent. of the votes in order to get a majority for the Party concerned. Minorities seeking representation will not get the representation to which they would be entitled under proportional representation. The Minister's strictures applied with equal force to constituencies of four members. In that respect anyone who looks at the lists of constituencies will readily understand the reason for moving away from four-member constituencies. The present Government, strange as it may seem, have not been able to secure a majority in four-member constituencies with the exception of East Galway where the Ceann Comhairle was already declared a member. I can speak of this Bill only in so far as it relates to the area of North Dublin, which I know pretty well. Under this Bill, it is proposed to have 11 members for that area. There are members for the area in the House at present who would agree with me that the ideal way to divide the North City for the purpose of representation would be two constituencies—East and West—of six and five members. If there were any fundamental objection to that—if the Minister insisted on three constituencies— we might have two four-member constituencies and a three-member constituency rather than one of five members and two of three members. In the set-out of the areas in the Schedule, the lines of the wards have been departed from in a number of cases. I do not blame those who prepared the Schedule. They had an exceedingly difficult task. Within their over-riding instructions as to three-member constituencies, they did, if I may say so, reasonably well. However, the fact remains that, in this division of two three-member constituencies and one five-member constituency, they had to run in and out through the boundaries of the wards. I want to direct the Minister's special attention to the north-east area. That includes a district containing a pocket of votes running along the Summerhill thoroughfare for about 40 or 50 yards and then turning sharply to the left and out to the North Circular Road, excluding from the central area a pocket which was natural to that area. I presume the reason for that was to bring the necessary population factor up to its requirements for the north-east area.

There is no natural boundary in the constituencies of central and north-east, as set out in the Schedule. The Minister can put that position right by taking from the County of Dublin the area now known as Donnycarney, or the Dublin housing area in that district, and including it in the north-east area. The Minister will, naturally, tell me that, for administrative purposes, that district is in the county at present and that the boundaries have not been defined. Within the last week, the corporation met to deal with this subject and they are seeking the Minister's sanction to have that housing area included in the city area proper, just as permission was given in the case of Crumlin, where a similar position existed. I was looking at the explanatory memorandum when the Minister was speaking. I think that he made some reference to the north-east area but I am not sure whether it was on the point to which I was drawing attention or not.

It was not.

I suggest that there is now an opportunity for straightening out the district. The position, in the case of an election, will lead to endless confusion in that end of Mountjoy ward. The district which is now cut off from the central area and thrown into the north-east area may not be considerable but it would give a certain distinctive character to the central district and render it more easily identifiable. Anybody who knows the area could easily produce three constituencies or two constituencies for North Dublin of a more acceptable character than those set out in the Schedule.

Apart from the points to which I have referred, there is nothing with which I shall quarrel so far as the division of North Dublin is concerned. My only regret is that, on an occasion such as this, we have not something introduced into our electoral machinery to deal with transport. It is about time that the present abominable system was altered and that the advantage possessed by a Party which has money behind it—I am not particularising— was ended.

The Deputy is now going outside the terms of the Bill.

All I shall say is that the dice is heavily loaded against small Parties and that it is about time notice was taken of that fact.

I am rather in agreement with the Deputies who have spoken. I regret that the Minister has extended the number of small constituencies. I think that it was not advisable but I suppose we cannot mend that now. My intervention in the debate will not be of long duration and it will be helpful to the Minister rather than controversial. I am glad that the Minister has abolished the monstrosity of vivisected counties—if I may use the term—and has made his plan conform to the natural boundaries of counties, generally. The House will congratulate him on that move. I want to make a few suggestions for improvement of the Bill. The Minister, in his opening speech, made rather interesting references to the general principles of the Bill and I should like to refer to a few of them. He said that there should be adequate representation for rural areas and that the people of an area should have a certain identity of interest and a certain character of their own. I completely agree with those two statements. As he made those two statements, the Minister could not himself have gone intimately into the ramifications of the Bill. It is only necessary to call attention to some departures from those two excellent principles. Deputy Cogan said that there was too great a tendency to city representation. I think that he was objecting to the nine extra members in Dublin. I have no particular objection to the representation given to the city, but I should not like city representation to override county representation. The counties should get a fair crack of the whip.

I should like to allude to the constituency of Limerick. Limerick constituency includes Limerick City—the third city in the State—with a population of 35,000 or 40,000. It would be only fair that Limerick City should have representation in the Dáil. If it could be arranged at all under the system of proportional representation it should be done. I can understand the Minister's difficulty in arranging for representation for Limerick City under the system of proportional representation because he could not provide for three members under the numerical arrangement. There is no reason, in making representation for Limerick City, why the Limerick electorate should dominate the whole county, which is what will happen under this Bill. If the Minister wanted to get away from the old system of seven constituencies, which I think was a rather ideal way of getting proper representation for all minorities outside the larger Parties, of which I happen to be a member, I think the natural boundary division would be the ideal solution. The Minister has departed from that principle. I believe he is desirous of making as fair and as good a job as he possibly can. I will give him the credit for that.

My suggestion is that the proper division of the County and City of Limerick, having accepted the principles of the Minister that there should be adequate representation for rural areas and that the people of any area should have a certain identity of interest, would be three members for the area which we will, for the sake of argument, call the city area and four members for the rest of the county. That would give the rural area four members not influenced by any large city vote. What is happening, however, in effect is that the city area is the larger area—four members for the city and three members for the county. The huge block of votes in the city is bound to dominate that particular area. It is absolutely certain—the Minister knows it as well as I do—that it is bound to dominate that particular area and that we shall have in the mutilated area of Limerick a predominantly city region. It is not certain that the members will all be city men, but that is the situation, as I see it. That is one point in the Bill which the Minister will probably agree should be corrected.

There are some other points which are even stranger. In the division of the county one would naturally expect that the area taken into the city would be the area most convenient to the city and that there should be, as far as possible, a certain identity of interests among the people in any constituency. The Minister says that that is his desire. He assured us in his speech that that is taking place. What is fact do we find the position to be? The area of the City of Limerick has included in it places such as Kilbehenny which is half a mile from Mitchelstown, County Cork, and Anglesboro, Ballylanders, 40 miles from the City of Limerick, while places like Ballycummin——

That is not fair.

——one mile and a half from the City of Limerick are included in what is known as the county area. The Minister himself will agree that that is not desirable. I am sure he cannot have given this particular division of the County Limerick the close study one would expect. We have, then, the anomaly that Kilbehenny, 40 miles from the City of Limerick, is included in the city area, while Ballycummin which is only a mile and a half from the city is included in what is known as the county area.

Will the Deputy be fair, now? Kilbehenny is on the eastern border of Limerick——

It is 40 miles——

——and surely the Deputy does not want me to do Lloyd George and James Craig and put the east into the west?

No, but I would like the Minister to carry out what he says is his desire, namely, that there should be adequate representation for rural areas and that the people of an area should have a certain identity of interests and a character of their own. Now, I ask the Minister, what similarity or identity of interests can the people of Kilbehenny have with the people in the City of Limerick? They have none whatever. The Minister was never in Kilbehenny and I may say that many of the Minister's Deputies who represent the County Limerick have never been there. I was often there. I will tell him something about it which he does not know. Kilbehenny is so far from the City of Limerick that when I go there they ask me how they are down in Limerick—much the same as the Minister, as a Dublin man, would ask me how they are down in Limerick. The people of Kilbehenny know nothing about Limerick. Most of them have never seen the city. In spite of that the Minister assures us he is conforming with the principles he announces when he is including Kilbehenny in the city area of Limerick. I am calling it the city area because it has been alluded to in that way in the chief paper of the County Limerick, which happens to expound the policy of the Minister's Government. The paper was kind enough to put a proper construction on the matter—that the city area includes Kilbehenny and that the county area is the area that includes Templemungret and Ballycummin. Incidentally, the new regional hospital for the City of Limerick is going to be in the county. Other anomalies of that kind will also occur. The Minister assures us that one of the reasons why some of the constituencies would appear to be out of order is that he tried to conform to the boundary of the old rural districts. Well, he did not do that in the case of Limerick. He must not have gone into the matter very carefully. I went into it more carefully than he apparently did. Although he assured us that there is to be no dissection of the old rural districts, Kilmallock is cut in ribbons. Why, I have not the least idea.

The Minister and I have always got on very well together and I hope we will continue so even though he does not seem to hit it off with other people. I never had a row with him and I hope I never will. However, I do say, as a Deputy representing Limerick for the past 20 years, that I know what I am talking about. I know something about the identity of interests one section of the people have with another. I do not want to use strong language. I do not want to say that the Minister had any ulterior motive in making the division. I assure the Minister that I have no more Party interest in the matter than he himself has. I am only trying to make it easier. After all, I am an old man and it makes no difference to me. All I want is that we should have a proper division in the County Limerick. The Minister smiles at me, but if he thinks I am making a Party reference I can assure him that it is absolutely immaterial to me because if he were to cut Limerick into seven divisions and to toss a coin as to which I should represent, it would not matter because I would be elected in any one of them.

Good man.

All I am trying to do is to suggest to the Minister that he should live up to the principles he has declared in this House in regard to the proper method of arranging constituencies in this country. We are accepting, willy nilly, the proposition the Minister has made that the country must be divided into smaller constituencies. I personally am not going to contest it because, to tell the truth, I know when I am beaten. However, I know also that the Minister is a reasonable man. I have often worked with him and I have been in close associawith him on committees, and so forth, and I am quite certain that when the Committee Stage of this Bill is reached he will bring in an amendment rectifying the mistakes which must have escaped his attention. If the Minister had given me the honour of asking my opinion I could have made some suggestions. I was not asked although I am aware that some other Deputies were asked. Kilbehenny, which is 40 miles from the City of Limerick, should be included in a rural constituency, and Ballycummin, which is only one and a half miles from the city should be included in the area which will be dominated by the city vote. If the Minister wishes to consult me, we will put in an amendment pleasing to both of us and I will be quite satisfied. If not, I propose to put in an amendment on Committee Stage.

My greatest objection to this Bill is in regard to the proposal to increase the number of Deputies. When one considers that the population is decreasing rather than increasing, one is entitled to ask why should the number of Deputies be increased. When we have such a small attendance in Parliament, when only about 50 per cent. of the elected representatives appear here and the other 50 per cent. show up perhaps twice a year, one wonders what advantage this increase will be so far as the people are concerned. Furthermore, a considerable number of the proposed new seats are for the City of Dublin. It is regrettable that in a small State of the size of the Twentysix Counties there should be such a large city demanding 32 representatives who will have a city outlook and a city mentality which will, undoubtedly, dominate and influence legislation, because these Deputies can be called by the Government at short notice to be present, if necessary. This increase is not necessary. The argument that it is necessary to have compact or small constituencies so as to enable Deputies to keep in contact with the people whom they represent does not apply in the case of the City of Dublin. It is very easy for city Deputies to keep in contact with their constituents inasmuch as there is available to them cheap transport. They have not to go to the considerable cost of hiring a hackney or maintaining a car or to travel considerable distances to contact their constituents. It is just as simple a matter for the city representative to perform his duty of contacting his constituents as it is for the city worker to do his duty in relation to his employment. Therefore, there can be no excuse for the redistribution of constituencies in the City of Dublin. The fact that you require 32 Deputies for Dublin is an indication of the bad management of the Government. It is an indication of the peculiar policy of the Government, which they intend to continue, a policy which has caused 250,000 to drift into the city in the last 20 years.

That policy is not in question now, Deputy.

It is not in question.

But, with your permission I would like to point out that if that policy had not been adopted, there would be no need for these increases.

That policy does not arise.

More than half the city Deputies come from the country.

There may be something in that. Still, they are representing the City of Dublin. Good luck to them, if they are able to command the respect of the City of Dublin against those who have been born and reared in it.

Do not get them put out, though.

No. Nowadays one hears a lot of talk about liberty, freedom, about the rights of minorities, etcetera, etcetera. We in this country pride ourselves on the fact that we have liberty, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, that those who differ from us in polities and religion are free to differ and in differing are in no way victimised, unlike those of our brethren within the boundaries of this country, unlike minorities in other countries who are persecuted because of such differences. We pride ourselves on that fact and we have enshrined in the Constitution protection for the people against any Government who would seek to deprive them of these very important liberties and rights. Perhaps there are many people in this country who have never bothered to read the Constitution. Perhaps there are many people who do not value the Constitution. If they were to reflect for a moment and to consider that the Constitution is the means whereby they are protected against an Executive or Parliament that would try to override law and order, they would realise the value of the Constitution under which they live.

In that Constitution we have enshrined the principle of proportional representation with a view to giving all sections ample opportunity to be represented in Parliament. Since the introduction of the system of proportional representation, which we asked for in 1922 when this State was established, we as a people, have recognised the value of that system and the benefits which derive from it. Since we accepted that system I doubt if a genuine case could be established for its abolition on the grounds that the system of proportional representation had prevented the stabilisation of Government or the election to Parliament of a Party commanding sufficient respect and strength to administer the affairs of this country. But, we have listened over a number of years to announcements made by the head of this Government, the Taoiseach, Mr. De Valera, warning us of the dangers in future in relation to proportional representation. Mark you, in the future. I would like to know how it is that these dangers have not arisen in the past and how it is that this gentleman, the head of this Government, should begin to worry about the effect of proportional representation in the future. In sounding that warning note, one is entitled to assume from the warning that he has given that if he thought he could secure a mandate from the people for its removal he would not hesitate to look for the mandate in the morning.

The Deputy should deal with this Bill.

The Minister, in introducing this Bill, mentioned the defects of proportional representation, defects which do not exist. In order to build up a reason or to strengthen his case for the introduction of 22 three-corner seats, he had to make some frivolous case such as that proportional representation is in danger of denying a Party sufficient strength to enter this House to administer the affairs of the country. The Minister quoted the general elections of 1927, 1933 and 1943. In 1933 and in 1943 within my own memory there was no necessity for the Government to have gone to the country. Their only reason for doing so then was not to seek a mandate from the people but to possess an over-all majority so that they could dictate to the people—which is a totally different thing—and to this House.

The Government and the Minister recognise that in the very near future they will be facing the country. Looking into the future, they sense the unhealthy position in which they are, they sense criticism, they sense division and they sense the fact that those who were once their vanguard are not so to-day. They feel that, if they went to the country under the present makeup of constituencies, it is unlikely they would come back possessing the strength which they possess to-day, and that it is unlikely they would come back as a Party to sit on that side of the House. They recognise that it is perhaps on this side they would be sitting, and in order to avoid that the Government are introducing a redistribution of constituencies with 22 or 23 three-corner seats with a view to manipulating votes in their own interest.

That is the reason why we had the speech that was delivered here this evening by the Minister for Local Government telling us how good proportional representation is, and yet how dangerous it can be. Even if we look at the counties or constituencies which have been turned into three-member seats it is quite reasonable to say that they have been gerrymandered and are to be counties or constituencies in which the Government hope to gain two out of every three members. I have no complaint to make so far as my own county is concerned. Several enquiries were made from the local officials there, but the Minister was told in very blunt language that, no matter what gerrymandering was done in that county, they would not be able to change the will of the people, and that instead of increasing their position there there would be a decrease. They recognised that fact and left the constituency as it was, even though I and many other people were expecting a change arising from the decrease in population in the two constituencies within the County Mayo. But because there was nothing to be gained they did not alter it. There are counties and constituencies in which they hope to gain and hope to benefit at the next election, and so changes have been made to three-member constituencies.

I say, without any apology to the House, that, if the Government are sincere about Partition, when they point the finger of accusation at the Government in north-eastern Ireland, and talk about gerrymandering there, they should ask themselves what can we expect when we here with our freely-elected Parliament, where democracy is functioning, see the Government of the day descend to such a level as this in order, in my opinion, to maintain their grip on the electorate who are slipping away from them? What can we expect if that is the example which the Minister for Local Government is prepared to setto the Government in north-east Ireland? How can we stand up either inside or outside this House and accuse them of gerrymandering, and of being dishonest in their intentions if, across the floor of this House, we have a Government which is prepared to do even worse with a lesser excuse even than what they possess for doing it. If we are to remove Partition by example——

Partition does not arise.

I admit it does not. I am speaking of the example which is being set by the Government and of the effect which it is going to have upon the minority——

The Deputy should keep within order. I think he has dealt sufficiently with it within order.

If we are sincere about giving minorities within this State fair representation in this Dáil, we should not infringe in any way upon proportional representation. I maintain that the Irish people are sensible and reasonable enough to elect a Government or at least a Party strong enough to carry on the administration of the country without having to descend to the level to which the Minister has in this Bill in gerrymandering and in reforming constituencies to suit his own political ends. In doing that he is convincing the minorities outside the administrative area of this part of Ireland that if they had any association with us that they, too, would——

The Deputy is back again at Partition.

At your desire I will refrain from referring to it further.

It is my order, not my desire.

All right, I will obey your order. In conclusion, I would like to make it clear that the Party of which I have the honour to be a member will oppose this Bill. We shall oppose it on three grounds: (1) that the increase in the number of Deputies is not essential; (2) that the increase in the number of Deputies is mostly concerned with the City of Dublin which, in my opinion, is a sore on the side of this country; (3) that the introduction of this Bill, with the gerrymandering principles embodied in it, is an insult to proportional representation and a deliberate means to an end, namely, to maintain the present Government in office even against the will and desire of the electorate.

The Bill we are discussing is of very great importance no doubt and is due to the administrative powers of this State to adjust the constituencies from time to time so as to bring them into line with the principle of proportional representation, of course, having the necessary regard to population. A good deal has been said against the principle of reducing constituency areas. As one who has some experience of public life I should like to see the electoral areas small and arranged in such a way as would allow Deputies to keep more closely in touch with their constituents than is possible in larger areas, such as six or seven-seat constituencies which found favour with some of the speakers.

No doubt the principle of proportional representation is to ensure the right of minorities to representation in the Dáil. I agree that the best way to ensure that is to group constituencies in such a way as will give the largest number of voters possible the right to combine in voting so that the minorities may find some form of representation. On the other hand, if that be the principle, that minorities should have the right to representation, if proportional representation is based entirely on that principle and the minorities are people who differ in religion from the majority, I think the conception of the whole thing is wrong.

Personally, I have no sympathy whatever with any scheme, however generous it may appear to be in theory, to give representation to minorities. We know perfectly well that minorities in this country have come to be synonymous with religious units. Any organisation in this country which operates a plan that will perpetuate religious differences, having regard to the experience in the North of Ireland of how far that has been ruinous to the interests of the peace and well-being of the community there, is not operating on right lines. It is all right to talk of democracy and the rights of minorities. Minorities have rights. Personally I do not believe that any minority section based on religion in this part of Ireland are interested in being personally represented in this Dáil. They find common interests with one or other of the Parties. They find where their interest is best served without seeking conditions under which it would be possible for them to give expression to their religious beliefs in dealing with matters of public concern.

The new arrangement of constituencies is undoubtedly biased towards the broad idea of democracy. If that be a good thing, then the Bill will definitely lend itself to promoting that idea of democracy. Let us examine what democracy is. Democracy means giving the right to vote to individuals of 21 or over. It demands from the community who have these rights a sense of responsibility which is very great. It demands that the different groups who may be elected under proportional representation should have a much greater responsibility to the public than if they were elected under the single-member constituency system. Under proportional representation, a Parliament must of necessity, if it is to be successfully worked and to get proper results, be a Parliament formed of groups of small units. These groups when they are duly elected as representatives of a fully democratic State, must learn that Party discipline, whether it is the much-abused system of men who march behind their leaders either to left or right or otherwise, must give way to the wider demand of the public interest. If this system is to be successful the game of Party politics which is played here must be abandoned.

You can have democracy, but you must have intelligent democracy. You must give to Deputies an incentive to act independently and conscientiously and to place the national interest above Party. In a democratic institution like this, elected on proportional representation, unless that Partyism is cut out, the trooping of members behind their leaders without conscientious consideration of the effect of their vote on the general well-being of their constituents, undoubtedly it will lead one day to a position in which democracy must fail, in which proportional representation must fail, and we will either fall into confusion or have to revert to the single-constituency system. There is no other alternative. I have no sympathy with people who prate about democracy. Democracy can be turned into the greatest form of tyranny. Under proportional representation, if you give one Party control over all other Parties there will be a tendency towards that political bitterness which at least should end when an election is over and which aims at the destruction of democracy.

The Bill is as useful as it can be, but if it has for its purpose the establishment of one Party in any insidious way or any way other than the way of honest and open approach to the community to ensure control, it is very dangerous and bound to have bad results. If that be its purpose, it will defeat its own ends, but, as the law stands, it is an essential part of our business and must be accepted. Its very introduction, in my opinion, indicates a very dangerous condition of things economically in this State. It shows that the City of Dublin and our other big cities and towns are taking control, to an extent which is out of all proportion, of the future representation of the country from the community which is really stable, worth while and above all, constant in its loyalty to what is solid policy, both Christian and national. If it can be claimed that democracy has ruled this country for the past 25 years, the increase in the representation for the City of Dublin and the decrease in the rural areas is a condemnation now and a condemnation which history will write against the institutions responsible for destroying country life and setting up in its place a very unstable town life and city authority.

We know that, according to the Constitution, constituencies have to be rearranged every 12 years. Hitherto, the ratio for an election was one member for from 20,000 to 30,000 people and the Minister has told us now that he has decided to make the ratio 20,000, but he did not give us any reason for making that change. The Minister talked a lot about the necessity for having adequate representation in the rural areas, and, above all, for having the representatives centrally situated in these areas. I am not aware that there has been any demand from any rural area for an increase in the representation in the Dáil, and, as a matter of fact, the people in the rural areas are very definitely of the opinion, and have been of the opinion for quite a long time, that the representation in the Dáil is too large and that a smaller number of members would adequately represent their interests.

It is sheer nonsense for the Minister to talk about having the representatives of rural areas centrally situated. He mentioned that in some cases people had to travel long distances—I think he said 20 or 30 miles—for the purpose of getting in touch with their representative. How can the Minister stop that? Surely that is entirely a matter for the people. It may happen that the representative may live at one end of the constituency and people who want to interview him may have to travel from the other end to do so. Surely it is not possible for the Minister, no matter how he rearranges the constituencies and no matter how he increases the representation, to alter that fact.

I must compliment Deputy Maguire on the very realistic speech he has made. The Bill, as he rightly points out, is a clear indication that the trends of life in this country are entirely wrong—the trends are away from the country to the cities and towns, and the Minister, in rearranging the representation in this Bill, had to follow the trends of population which, as Deputy Maguire has pointed out, are away from the rural areas into the cities and towns. It may be that in quite a short time the urban representation in this Dáil will be in excess, and well in excess, of the rural representation and that position of affairs will be bad not only for democracy but for the national life of the country as well.

There is a remarkable difference between the views expressed by Deputy Maguire and by the Minister on the subject of proportional representation. The Minister, in this speech, was thinking not of proportional representation but of another system of election which would always be sure to give him an overwhelming representation in the Dáil, because he mentioned that it was folly to have to do by two elections what could be done in one. What is wrong about that? Surely there is nothing against the principle of proportional representation in that?

If I understand proportional representation, it means, in essence, that there should be adequate representation for all the elements in the country, that there should always be a number of Parties and that the strengths of a certain number of these Parties should approximate very closely to one another. As a matter of fact, this country never had such good government as when the Party in power was relying for support on a body of Independents, and it looks to me as if this country is never likely to have again for a long time such good government as it had during that period. That was democracy, and nobody can deny that the legislation passed during that period had a truly democratic flavour.

The people did not think that.

They did. It was not the fault of the people that they were deceived, and we know who practised the deception on them.

Mr. Jinks does not bear out that statement.

I agree also with the other speakers who hold that three-member constituencies are not really proportional representation, and I do not think that any argument the Minister can possibly adduce will make it appear to any member of the Dáil that they are proportional representation. After all, if there is to be a chance of all sections and all elements in the community getting representation, the larger the constituencies, the greater their chances will be, and it appears to me, at all events, that it should be the aim of the Minister, in formulating legislation of this kind, to arrange the constituencies so that there will be at least five members for each. I do not see that that is an impossibility.

I am glad of one thing—that the outrages which the Minister committed on certain constituencies on the last occasion are being put an end to by this Bill. Certain counties were mutilated and parts of them linked up with others for the purpose of ensuring that the Fianna Fáil Party and Government would be strengthened. He tried the experiment in Sligo, but he did not succeed, and now Sligo is to be linked up again with Leitrim. The Minister mentioned in another part of his speech that so far as possible the areas joined together by this Bill should be identical in interests and that there should be a feeling of kinship not only in matters of trade and business but in social matters as well. I do not know what steps the Minister took to ascertain where the identity of interest lay between Leitrim and Sligo, because there is really very little identity of interest between the two counties. A more natural association would have been Leitrim and Cavan, but, as Sligo and Leitrim were associated together in the past, I have no fault to find with the fact that that old association is restored by this Bill.

I want to urge again, as I did at the outset, that the Minister should explain to the Dáil the reasons why he decided to take a ratio of 20,000 on this occasion rather than the old ratio of 20,000 to 30,000. What were his reasons for adopting that ratio and from what areas or what constituencies came the demand for increased representation in the Dáil?

Perhaps I should begin by answering Deputy Roddy's question as to why I decided to take the minimum ratio permitted by the Constitution to determine the representation for the various constituencies. The Deputy in his speech has praised Deputy Maguire because he had drawn attention to the trend of population in this country. The trend, as has been pointed out, is for the population of the rural areas to diminish. I hope that is a temporary trend and an investigation of certain constituencies will indicate that, perhaps, it is and that in the course of the next two or three years the trend may be reversed and that the population of these constituencies will approach what we might, in the light of the 1936 census figures, regard as their more or less normal level. In delimiting constituencies and in allocating representation to them, I had to have regard to the requirements of the Constitution which, shall we say, adjured me to try to establish a certain uniformity in representation, so far as that uniformity may be practicable.

I, therefore, found myself in this position, that if I adhered to an average figure of 23,000 or 24,000 of population per member, I should have had to reduce drastically the representation in the Dáil of the rural areas. I decided that that would be undesirable from a social point of view, that in fact, as has been argued by Deputy Cafferky and others, by reason of the fact that the Legislature sits in our largest city, the urban interests find it easier to secure adequate regard for their interests than the rural areas do. Therefore I had no option, if I were to try to preserve the representation of the rural areas, except to decide that in these areas I should take as my norm the lower limit of population per member and try to apply that generally throughout the country, so that I might bias the revision in favour of rural constituencies without at the same time discriminating unduly against the larger urban areas. After all, the people who live in Dublin and Cork and who pay their taxes have certain rights just as those who live in Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim.

In doing that of course I was not pursuing a novel course because in other countries where the system of representative democracy under which we live also obtains, the authorities charged with the revision of constituencies always endeavour to give a certain bias in favour of the rural population. They know that the rural population is scattered, that it is to some extent less cohesive than the urban population and that it is not able, very often or easily, to bring adequate pressure to bear and make its views as adequately known to its representatives as the urban population is. Therefore, in some cases I think they have a definite rule whereby the rural population is accorded a definitely higher representation per unit of population than the urban areas are. We have done that in the revision which is now before the House. We have done it, let me emphasise, not because we want to discriminate against urban areas but because we want, so far as we possibly can, to preserve to the extent to which it is justifiable the existing rural representation. In endeavouring to do that we have been compelled, having regard to the requirements of the Constitution, to enlarge the size of the Dáil. The only alternative which we would have to the scheme now before the House, if we want to reduce the size of the Dáil, would be drastically to reduce the representation afforded to the rural constituencies.

Deputy Cafferky has accused me of jerrymandering. He has followed the lead of Deputy Cogan—I wonder whether he is a leader of Clann na Talmhan or merely a camp follower.

You would not be responsible for such a thing.

He is no mud slinger.

The Deputy has accused me of jerrymandering. If Deputy Cafferky thinks that the number of members of the next Dáil should be reduced, he will have his opportunity on the Committee Stage of the Bill. He can bring in, if he likes, an amendment to reduce the representation accorded by this Bill to South Mayo.

To the City of Dublin.

Perhaps we shall consider it, if he does, but of course Deputy Cafferky is performing on this Bill in exactly the same way as he performed on the Bill dealing with Deputies' allowances. He is speaking against the Bill and hoping, at the same time, that the majority on this side will save him from the consequences of his action.

I neither spoke nor voted when that Bill was before the House.

I forgot the Deputy was in a safer place.

I was indisposed. We cannot have truth and honesty from the Minister and never did we expect it. He is a good mud slinger. He is the corner-boy in the box.

The Deputy must withdraw that expression in reference to the Minister.

I withdraw.

You were compelled, Sir, to get Deputy Cafferky to withdraw the bouquet. I am rather sorry. I regard abuse, coming from Deputy Cafferky, as a compliment.

I think the Minister might avoid personalities, too.

I shall do that.

It is very hard for him.

The Bill—even the ranks of Tuscany have had to concede it—has been conceived in a spirit of impartiality. I approached my task having laid down for myself certain principles, the first being that the representation of the rural constituencies should be preserved, the next being that the constituencies should, as far as possible, be of such a size as will enable Deputies in the rural areas to maintain a closer association and more intimate contact with their constituents than hitherto they have been able to do, the third being that we should make the new constituencies conform as far as possible so as to be consistent with the existing county administrative boundaries, and the fourth being—and I make no apology for it—to create as many three-member constituencies as I could in order to give the people, for they are primarily concerned, an opportunity of giving a clear-cut decision at the next general election.

We are told in this House that the Government has lost the confidence of the people; we are told that the Government is corrupt; we are told that the Government is guilty of jobbery and bribery, and we are told that it is an effete Government, a tired Government, an inefficient Government. There is one thing quite clear from the speeches which we heard here to-night and that is that the people who have been making these charges do not believe them because, if they did, they would welcome this Bill. If these gentlemen who have been making these accusations, these suggestions, believed them, they would say: "The Minister for Local Government is giving us a chance to secure office at the next general election and to establish a firm Government which will be as stable as the Fianna Fáil Administration has shown itself to be over the past 15 years."

But, they do not believe it, and they know the people have not been deceived by the propaganda which they have been carrying on and, therefore, they have criticised the Bill because it has endeavoured to give effect, in accordance with the Constitution— there is nothing inconsistent with the Constitution in the proposals contained in this Bill—to the principle enunciated by no less a person than Professor Hogan, that the purpose of an election is not merely to give the people representation in the Legislature, but also to give them firm and stable Government.

Deputy O'Higgins, in the opening phrases of his speech, praised Professor Hogan and condemned us for having kept him out of Dáil Eireann. I do not know what Professor Hogan's present political affiliations are. I do know, having read his book, that he is a thoughtful political thinker, not easily deceived by the specious appearance of things. I do know, too, that there was a time when he was associated with the present members of the Opposition and, if they thought so highly of him, surely they had an opportunity, when they constituted the largest Party in this House, of securing his election in a safe constituency, and, if anyone is to be blamed because he is not sitting among us, surely it would be those with whom he was associated at the time when he might have looked for parliamentary honours.

It is a pity that Professor Hogan is not here to give the Dáil the benefit of his acute observations upon the system of proportional representation when it is carried to its extremes. We will all concede that it has its advantages in certain circumstances. It does prevent, perhaps, that aggravated swing of the pendulum by which the votes of a comparatively small section of the people may bring about what is virtually a social revolution. We will concede also that it allows the representation of interests in the Dáil which otherwise might not be represented adequately in the House. But let us not forget that proportional representation, when carried to extremes, has also its disadvantages.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition praised Professor Hogan's political acumen and perhaps, therefore, I might be forgiven if I take this opportunity of putting on the records of this House, for easy reference by any member of it who is interested in this question of election and representation, some of the things which Professor Hogan has to say. These quotations I am about to make are strictly germane to the purpose of this Bill and to some of the speeches which we have listened to, in particular to the speech of Deputy O'Higgins and the speeches of Deputy Cogan and Deputy Cafferky, neither of whom is in the House now to receive a little education in regard to this matter, a little education from which they and their Party might well benefit, but Deputy Donnellan will, perhaps, convey this wisdom to them.

Thanks to the schoolmaster.

I do not know whether that remark is addressed to Professor James Hogan or to myself. Both of us deserve the Deputy's thanks.

I heard you call him a murderer one time.

This is what Professor Hogan has to say about proportional representation when carried to extremes. On page 58 of his book, which is in the Library, he says:—

"Now, it is incontestible that any considerable measure of proportional representation gives rise, sooner or later, to a state of things in which government by coalition or alliance becomes the rule. It is not merely that proportional representation, in so far as it tends to make permanent the coalition form of government, tends to give rise to parliamentary oligarchy. There is the further consideration that the proportional representation coalition itself tends to a much greater degree to instability than the type of coalition apt to arise in the conditions of the majority system."

Then he writes, on page 65:—

"While its aim is to secure to every citizen an equally effective voice at the level of election, proportional representation works out at the parliamentary level in an agglomeration of minority parties with a consequent perpetuation of coalition governments. The upshot is that the electorate"—

and mark this—

"is left with a more remote and less effective voice than if, as under the majority system, one of a few parties were returned to power with a direct, open and comprehensive national mandate."

Then we have this, speaking of coalition governments:

"Experience confirms what an analysis of the conditions of coalition government, more particularly of the proportional representation type, suggests. A coalition government is justified when there is some public need sufficiently compelling to bring parties more or less spontaneously into partnership. On the contrary, coalitions which arise when the party system is artificially suspended from motives of party advantage, may be expected to issue either in parliamentary oligarchy or in government from hand to mouth. This latter kind of government may serve as a stop-gap, but will certainly, if long continued, show itself to be at once feeble and corrupt."

What Constitution of this House did Deputy O'Higgins hold out as being the ideal one? He said in his speech that, if he had his way, he would have here in this Dáil one large Party of about 60 members, then another Party not nearly so large consisting of about 30 members, and then three other Parties of about 12 members each. This is how he visualised the affairs of this country would be administered in such a Parliament. In that situation, he said, no Government would be able to enact legislation without securing the support of one or other of those smaller Parties. That is to say, if the Government of the day, considering a large and grave public matter, came to a decision that certain legislative measures must be adopted in order to deal with it, the Government would have to take that Parliamentary measure and hawk it around from Party to Party, bargaining with each in an endeavour to secure a majority for it. Such a position would undoubtedly reduce Parliament to a collection of henhuckstering politicians—and that is precisely what Professor Hogan emphasises in the quotation which I have just read and which I think I ought to repeat:—

"Coalitions which arise when the party system is artificially suspended from motives of party advantage may be expected to issue either in parliamentary oligarchy or in government from hand to mouth."

That is precisely the sort of government which Deputy O'Higgins forecast —government from hand to mouth.

"This latter kind of government may serve as a stop-gap, but will certainly, if long continued, show itself to be at once feeble and corrupt."

That is precisely the sort of thing we should have here, if Deputy O'Higgins's ideal were realised. We should have the Government going from Party to Party, bargaining with each and giving something to each in return for the support which it received. It would be a weak Government, because it could not carry its own measures through the House; it would be a corrupt Government, because it could only carry on by a system of continuous Party bargains.

Are there any poems you could read out this evening?

Could you not leave it until next Sunday?

It seems to me that there are certain Deputies in need of a political education.

The Minister is perfectly in order and must be listened to.

It is very trying.

There is something more practical in Professor Hogan's book than that.

I am merely quoting from an authority who has commanded the admiration of Deputy O'Higgins.

He certainly hypnotised you, too.

Is there any poem at all in it?

The Minister is under a spell this evening.

I am trying to keep myself strictly in order.

It is an ordeal.

We have heard a lot of talk from Deputy Cafferky and Deputy Cogan, the "smash-and-grab" Deputy, about democracy. Here is what the professor has to say:—

"Given the parliamentary type of democracy, there are two conditions essential to that combination of action and criticism which enables parliament to act at one and the same time as the government and the representative of the people. First, it is essential that the executive government should be able to depend upon the steady support of a majority of the representatives in the House of representatives. Secondly, it is vital, though not in the same degree, that there should be available an opposition sufficiently coherent to act as an effective public critic of the government in office and sufficiently vigorous to serve, if need be, as the basis or nucleus of an alternative government."

This measure will do two things. It will not only help the people to give themselves a strong Government but it will also help them to given themselves an effective counterpoise in a cohesive and strong Opposition. It is true that, in that process, perhaps some of the splinter Parties may disappear, but then there will be none to lament them.

It is a nice splinter Party the Minister has in Monaghan at present. That splinter Party is rolled up in a nice big cheque.

We have before us interrupting me two Leaders who have been responsible for splitting their own Parties. If Deputy Norton wants to talk about splinters, he need not let his gaze wander up to Monaghan, but can divert it to his left; and on the fourth bench from the gangway he will see the seats—if you like, vacant—of those who were once sitting behind him under his leadership. On his left he can see the four benches on the gangway with the six seats——

The vacant seats.

The vacant seats, if you like, of those who were once sitting behind him under his leadership but who could not stand it any longer.

He might take them back like your Party took back Mullins.

I understand that those Deputies who left the Red Labour Party are not willing to go back.

This does not arise out of the Bill at the moment.

A member of the Government Party went to Russia to buy arms to use them against Irishmen and that cannot be denied by the Minister. They went to get Red guns.

That is not true.

This is out of order.

I will teach manners to that gentleman if I am to die in the effort.

It was the Minister for Justice who went to Russia.

I would love to serve the cause of Ireland—but I will not say it. The thing about Deputy Norton is that he is all words. He has always shown himself to be all words and we know what his words are worth.

Now, Barnum, there will be a place for you on the music-halls after the election.

Will the Minister and the Deputy return to the subject under discussion?

Deputy O'Sullivan was mild in his criticism of the Bill. He could not resist, however, the contagion of sitting behind Deputy Cogan, who was the first to introduce the question of gerrymandering into the discussion. He suggested that there had been a certain amount of gerrymandering in the Bill in regard to Dublin and other constituencies. He said that the reason I was moving away from four-member constituencies was that the Government was unable to secure a majority in these constituencies. Well, Deputy O'Sullivan is, as a rule, careful to verify his facts before he rises to discuss any matter in this House, and if he had exercised his usual care in this case he would have seen that, far from reducing the number of four-member constituencies, this Bill—and I readily admit that this is one of its defects—has increased the number by no less than 12½ per cent. So in whatever purpose I had in trying to move away from four-member constituencies I was not animated with any desire to gerrymander constituencies, because if I had wanted to depart from the fundamental principles of the Bill I could easily have arranged that there would be no four-member constituencies there at all. But having decided that we should, as far as possible, make the new constituencies consistent with county boundaries, I had the rather undesirable result that a certain number of four-member constituencies could not be avoided, and that their number was increased from eight to nine.

Deputy O'Sullivan, however, suggested that we might perhaps amend the proposed boundaries for Dublin North-East constituency by bringing in Donnycarney, where there is a large population now and which may ultimately increase. Well, my difficulty there is the one which I have mentioned. It would seem a reasonable thing perhaps to have included this area inside one of the constituencies into which the County Borough of Dublin is divided, but it lies outside the present boundary of the City of Dublin, and if I had brought it in I would have been accused of violating one of the principles which I have laid down, and of gerrymandering. I am concerned about that situation because eventually this area which is being developed by the corporation will come into the city.

Howth was brought out.

Howth is a complete anomaly and it will have to be dealt with in some other way later. Howth is isolated from the city boundary by miles and it would be extending the principle to an absurd degree to include Howth in the city for political purposes and it would have very little advantage.

But I was dealing with Donnycarney. If it had been inside the city boundary it would have naturally formed a part of one of the city constituencies. I do not know whether I can do anything about it now or not. It will inevitably come inside the city and it would be reasonable to provide for that now but I cannot move unless the corporation move first to extend the boundary to include it. If they do that before the Bill becomes law I will see what I can do to meet the position then. The difficulty is that under Section 3 of the Bill the effective date for determining the administrative areas on which the constituencies are to be based is January 1st, 1947, and I am not sure what amendment I should have to make to deal with the situation which would be created if the area were to be brought inside the city boundary.

Now in regard to Deputy Bennett, I must say that I did not appreciate and do not still quite apprehend what his argument was. He said that he felt that in the constituency which I proposed for East Limerick in this Bill, there was a great danger that the urban population of Limerick would, so to speak, swamp the poll and deprive the rural population of its due representation in the Dáil. Here is the situation as I see it. When I drew the boundary I did advert to the position of the rural population in the constituency which was to be based on the City of Limerick. East Limerick constituency has a population of approximately 84,447. Limerick City has 42,000 and on that basis in the proposed constituency of East Limerick we might would be divided as between two candidates for the city, with 42,000, and two for the rural area with the remaining 42,000.

You could not anticipate that. The votes would be concentrated in the city.

Forty-two thousand city dwellers would get two out of four seats and 42,000 rural dwellers would get the remaining two. Of course, personalities will cut across boundaries. Deputy Bennett will have friends in the city, as some of the city candidates will have friends in the country. The tendency will, however, be to divide representation half and half. Suppose I had made a three-seat constituency around the City of Limerick. We may take it that that three-seat constituency would have something like 60,000 of a population. It would not be quite 60,000 but it would be close to that figure. Of those 60,000 persons, more than two-thirds would be resident in the City of Limerick. We may assume that the city would get, at least, two out of three seats in that constituency. If the Deputy's forebodings in regard to the four-seat constituency were to be realised in the case of the three-seat constituency, the city might get even the whole three seats. That is the practical problem with which I was faced. I decided, for good or ill, that, having regard to the fact that I wanted to preserve, if I could, the rural representation in the Dáil, we should have to base the four-seat constituency on the City of Limerick.

Where is the identity of interest?

The Deputy made a great to-do about the position of a district electoral division on the borders of Tipperary, near Mitchelstown—Kilbehenny was, I think, the name of the place. That is forty miles from the City of Limerick. The Deputy knows the distances better than I do. How far is it from Rathkeale?

About the same.

It is a much greater distance.

It is not.

It is in the eastern half of the constituency—in the extreme east of East Limerick. Rathkeale is on the extreme west of West Limerick. Take Glin——

Take the question of the identity of interest.

Take Glin, instead of Rathkeale. I was thinking about the rural district when I spoke about Rathkeale. How far is it from Glin? At least twice as far as from the City of Limerick. The Deputy suggests that, because of certain geographical affinities, I should include Kilbehenny, which is in the extreme eastern corner, with Glin, on the extreme western corner, so that Deputies might have a convenient constituency. The Deputy has been making play——

I was not making play.

The Deputy was making play with the fact that, in order to get the balance between the populations, the boundary line between East Limerick and West Limerick runs fairly close to the city. He said that one of the district electoral divisions was only one and a quarter miles from the city.

I said one and a half miles. The Minister knows the exact distance.

We shall not fall out for the sake of a couple of furlongs. That is just because the boundary line between the two Limerick constituencies has been drawn as fairly as possible so as to run north and south, having regard to the configuration of the district electoral areas——

What about identity of interest, which the Minister said was the guiding principle of his division?

I also mentioned administrative convenience and a number of other things, which have all been taken into account in delimiting the constituency of East Limerick from the constituency of West Limerick. I shall say this for the Deputy—he did not accuse me of having deliberately tried to gerrymander the constituency. I do not know how this arrangement will affect sitting Deputies or Party organisations any more than he does.

None of us knows that. So far as the whole question of gerrymandering is concerned, we have this undeniable fact—that the ballot boxes in the Twenty-six Counties have always kept their secrets. Very few of us have any real idea as to how a particular area or district is likely to vote.

The Minister will help me later to correct the mistake.

I cannot undertake to do that.

I am not asking the Minister to undertake anything.

I think that the Deputy, when he thinks over what I have said, will agree with me.

When the Minister thinks over it, he will find that he has made a mistake.

I cannot undertake to base a three-seat constituency on the City of Limerick. I think that that would be a wrong thing to do. It would deprive the rural population around that area of their proper representation in the Dáil and, accordingly, I do not propose to do it. I do not think that any other criticism which was offered against the Bill is worth answering. I shall leave the Bill to the House, telling the members that it is the best which I, or, possibly, any other person in my position, having due regard to all the considerations which I mentioned could submit to the House.

Mr. Corish

If the Minister is in a position to explain, perhaps he would say why Longford-Westmeath with a population of 91,101 is given five members and Mayo South, with a population of 88,579, is given five members likewise, while Wexford with a population of 91,704 is reduced to four seats. Wexford has a greater population than either of the other constituencies which are given five seats.

The only answer I can give is that there has been a greater fall in the population of Mayo between 1936 and 1946 than there has been in the population of Wexford. I anticipate that that fall will be of a temporary nature, that the people who were not in their normal homes on the night of the census will return in due course, and, therefore, that that apparent anomaly between Wexford and Mayo will disappear. So far as AthloneLongford is concerned, I had to find a convenient unit. I could not have given them four members because, if I had done so, the position would be even more anomalous than in the case of Wexford. I had a limited figure within which to work—147—and the question which the Deputy has put to me merely illustrates the difficulty with which I was faced —the fact that, in the rural areas, the population has declined, that the Constitution imposes a definite limit on the membership of the Dáil and that, although I went to the extreme constitutional limit, I had, nevertheless, to take a member off the present Wexford constituency.

I would ask the Minister to consider this point. The constituency that will be known as East Galway is comprised at the moment of an area of roughly one-tenth North Galway and, as we who live in the constituency know, it is recognised as such. I wonder if the Minister would consider the possibility of changing the name to either North Galway or North-East Galway.

Anything that would satisfy local sentiment.

Nine-tenths, Deputy.

Mr. Corish

The Minister, therefore, assumes that only in certain areas in the country the population has decreased temporarily.

I assume that in Wexford it has decreased temporarily. I was faced with a choice between Wexford and Mayo, or Wexford and Longford. If the Deputy cares to look at the figures he will see I would have created a greater anomaly if I had reduced the representation of Mayo South to four than I would by reducing the representation of Wexford to four.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 46; Níl, 17.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Daly, Francis J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Lydon, Michael F.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Connor, John S.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice Bridget, M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Shanahan, Patrick.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Martin.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Ó Cinnéide; Níl: Deputies Bennett and Cogan.
Question declared carried.

When will the Committee Stage be taken?

We could order it for next Wednesday, but we need not take it then.

Oh, no. Why not take it on Wednesday week?

Very well—Wednesday week.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 5th November, 1947.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 29th October, 1947.
Barr
Roinn